Dr. Patrick Fagan, Chief Talent / Human Resources Officer at NYC Department of Education

Show Notes

Episode Summary
What does it take to lead the People function for the largest school district in the United States? In this premiere episode of HR Voices, host Emily Fenech sits down with Dr. Patrick Fagan, Chief Talent and HR Officer for New York City Public Schools, to unpack the challenges and innovations behind managing a workforce of over 80,000 educators and staff.

Dr. Fagan shares his path from lifelong public servant to top HR leader, and how his academic background in industrial-organizational psychology informs his leadership today. He dives into the complexities of scaling HR solutions across massive systems, the importance of storytelling and data in securing resources, and how NYC schools are experimenting with AI-powered coaching to support teacher well-being and retention.

From navigating post-pandemic workplace expectations to piloting cutting-edge tech with a human-first mindset, this conversation offers valuable insights for any HR leader trying to do more with less—without losing sight of the people behind the work.

Key Timestamps

• [00:45] – Meet Dr. Patrick Fagan and his journey to a dream HR role

• [03:43] – The biggest challenge: scaling with limited resources

• [05:16] – How to make a strong business case for HR programs

• [06:47] – Navigating AI within a massive, interdependent public system

• [09:14] – Piloting BetterUp to support new teacher retention

• [11:58] – Why people are more honest with AI—and what that means for HR

• [13:09] – Creating psychological safety at scale

• [14:06] – Final advice: don’t forget the “human” in human resources

Takeaways

• Tell compelling, data-backed stories to secure resources for your HR initiatives

• Pilot and experiment—even in large systems, small tests can lead to scalable innovation

• Use AI to augment, not replace, human connection and coaching

• Address psychological safety proactively in large, distributed workforces

• Lead with empathy—especially in a world saturated with buzzwords and tech trends

  
  

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Emily Fenech (00:01.378)
Welcome to HR Voices. Today we're talking to Dr. Patrick Fagan, the Chief Talent and HR Officer for New York City Public Schools. Welcome Dr. Fagan.

Patrick D Fagan (00:10.715)
Thank you, Emily. It's a pleasure to be here.

Emily Fenech (00:13.42)
Yes, we're so glad you're here. You're our very first guest on HR Voices and I don't think we could have gotten a better one. So thank you. No. You lead HR at the largest school district in the United States and most people can't imagine the scale of your work. So I'm curious if you could tell us a little bit about what it's like to lead the People Function as such a massive organization.

Patrick D Fagan (00:16.507)
Thank

Patrick D Fagan (00:22.201)
I hope I don't let you down and your audience.

Patrick D Fagan (00:43.173)
Well, it's interesting. It's scary. But it's very exciting. I often tell people I'm probably one of the luckiest individuals or people leaders around because I actually have my dream job.

So it's actually an awesome experience. If someone, I've always looked for work that is complex and challenges you, but at the same time allows me to integrate my experience, my academic background, and actually some innovative thinking. So actually I have my dream job, so it's actually an awesome job, sorry.

Emily Fenech (01:26.71)
Yes. How did you land this dream job?

Patrick D Fagan (01:30.703)
You know what? So I'm a career because I'm a government employee. What do I mean by that? I am into service, public service. I am a true public servant. To be quick, I ended up in this role because it was a marriage of when I was the deputy, my predecessor, was a deputy CHRO officer, and I was currently going for my

doctorate in IO psychology. And so I was always one that blended, you know, research backed evidence, you know, solutions to the work and the issues. And when this position became vacant, my public service background of over almost three decades, co-mingled with my functional background in so many different areas and aligned with my academia.

made me say, hey, let's throw my hat in ring. And so that's how I actually ended up in this job, dysfunctional, yes.

Emily Fenech (02:34.606)
Yes. And I saw your LinkedIn post from about a week ago. So congratulations on your PhD. That's amazing.

Patrick D Fagan (02:41.893)
Thank you, thank you so much. Thank you, yeah, it was hard and I was saying, thank goodness I did that prior to getting into this role. you know, like, because I just can't imagine the coursework piece. When I actually received this role, I was in my dissertation phase. So I was actually on the tail end. So that made it a lot easier transition for me. But if I had to do that.

Emily Fenech (02:50.092)
Yeah.

Patrick D Fagan (03:09.867)
Now I just don't see how possible. I'm sure it is, but the challenge would far probably, I would not pick up that challenge or embark upon that challenge.

Emily Fenech (03:22.508)
Yeah. Well, that's a really good segue to the first question I wanted to ask you, which is, what is the biggest challenge facing people teams and leadership teams in this moment?

Patrick D Fagan (03:34.361)
Right now, of course, it's always the limited being in government. It's the limited resources that we have coupled with scalability. we're constantly, and especially in a system this large, it's always figuring out a way to scale what works. And so we're constantly innovating, piloting new things, but then there's always, unfortunately, a cost associated with it. So one of the

biggest challenges that we are facing in our line of work is just scalability. And with the resources, I would say that. On a general sense, coming back post pandemic where employees want more transparency, you know, and then it's, you come back, you have this transparency issue where they want to know more.

And then this super thing called AI is upon us. It's scaring everyone talking about it's, my gosh, this is going to replace me. How does it, let's try this. And it's finding that sweet spot because I am of the firm believer that AI is great, but we must not lose because of our human centric focus on the people, the ones that actually do the work and have been doing the work. So.

Emily Fenech (05:00.961)
Yes. Let's tackle them one at a time. When it comes to limited resources and scalability, what advice do you have? I hear that quite a bit from HR leaders, not just within the government, the public sector, but private sector too. Do you have any advice of how to navigate the reality of limited resources and trying to scale what works?

Patrick D Fagan (05:01.113)
I would say those are the challenges.

Patrick D Fagan (05:16.708)
Okay.

Patrick D Fagan (05:28.653)
My advice, because it's usually, and it goes back to storytelling and being, because you're always competing for your area and in a system this large, there's always competing interests or what we would have to say trade-offs. So senior leadership, the chancellor or even, you know, city hall have to make hard decisions. So it's incumbent upon me as a people leader to always tell the story.

So that I'm able to get those resources for the programs that are scalable so my advice to anyone public private is Making sure that whatever it is you want to scale and you want that those limited resources Directed to those programs you have to be able to back it up with not just a good story but with data and Which is the ROI because if you're asking for resources, what's gonna be that return? You just can't

ask for resources and expect, yeah, it's a good idea. What makes it a good idea? And you have to prove and be willing to actually go down that path to back it up.

Emily Fenech (06:32.621)
Mm-hmm.

Emily Fenech (06:38.561)
Yeah, do the work to prove it. When it comes to the AI challenge, again, I hear that quite a bit too, industry-wide. How have you been navigating that within your role?

Patrick D Fagan (06:53.093)
Well, we're still in the just try out phase, which is good. So we're not rushing because we're such an interdependent ecosystem. What does that mean? We're not standalone. were part of the HR is part of a bigger ecosystem of the New York City public schools and New York City public schools is part of a bigger ecosystem called the city of New York. So there's

make, there's all these various levels. So with AI, it's not just AI for New York City public schools. It's AI for New York City public schools, but also you have to factor in AI. How does it affect unions? How does it affect other agencies that we feed or work data to receive data from? And a prime example is, we don't print our own payroll checks. There's just one city.

payroll check. So access to that information that I would require or a program would require, let's say that sort of, it's not a decision that's made at this level. It's a bigger decision. So how do we navigate it? We try it out here and there, and we try to see how realistic and how far we can go with it. it's right now, it's just a little bit of trial error piling in here, but it's no

nothing definitive where we're saying we're going AI full steam on this initiative or on this project or with this program. So it's actually fun. Once again, it's fun because we get to try it out here. Some people are trying it out there. Everyone's trying to figure it out. Where does it sort of sit or actually how can it be in conjunction? Remember, we're not looking from at least our standpoint to replace our individuals.

Emily Fenech (08:26.061)
Mm-hmm.

Patrick D Fagan (08:49.027)
It's how can we make the work bigger and it's more for scalability in such a system this large to help us as individuals in our day to day.

Emily Fenech (08:59.851)
Yeah. Are there any experiments or doesn't have to be AI, but when it comes to the programs that you can share, things that you're excited about, programs that have worked that you think could inspire others, is there anything you can share that you're excited about?

Patrick D Fagan (09:13.295)
Yes. I'm very, yes, I'm glad you asked that question. It got me perked up. So one thing I'm heavily on, very much as a IO practitioner and something that I'm proud that I was able to bring to this department is called Better Up, which is a coaching platform. And we're about to pilot, the research has shown that, know, our

Emily Fenech (09:19.274)
Yeah.

Patrick D Fagan (09:40.857)
new teachers, years zero to five, it's hard to retain them. What does it mean? It's like they usually leave the profession after their second or third year. And the research has shown that the reasons are, if you look at a system this large, they feel alone within their school. Although we have supports, know, and scaffolding supports to help them lesson plan and keep them motivated.

When they're in that classroom or when they're in that school building, how many miles away from whatever central location, the research has shown that they feel lonely and they just burn out and they have no one to sort of talk to. And this, we're not just talking about pedagogy. It's just like if they had a hard day or, you know, who do they turn to, who they could get advice from.

And so we're looking to pilot a program for a couple hundred of our teachers this year, which gives them actually an AI coaching platform accessible via their phone, which is 24 seven. And it's interesting because I'm a big fan. I'm a positive psychologist and I'm also a big fan of the father of positive psychology, which is Marty Siegelman. And he is the one who developed this. It's based actually on his research with Betterwell.

which will help teachers and every day, but particularly for my teachers with so that they don't feel alone. And before it seems interesting, like, well, you know what, how's that going to work? Coaching from an AI tool, people will talk into like their phone. Well, actually what the research has also found is that individuals are more honest and more open to talking with.

their phone by themselves behind closed doors and as opposed to with someone one-on-one in a didactic relationship. So it's interesting to sort of be like, wow, you would think that no, I want my Freudian style, come in, let me sit down and be coached by them. But no, what they've found is actually that individuals don't mind and they're very open and very personal with certain matters that affect them with their own technology.

Emily Fenech (11:31.84)
Yeah.

Emily Fenech (11:37.526)
Mm-hmm.

Emily Fenech (11:59.255)
Yeah, you know, that surprised me too. The number one use case for chat GPT is actually like therapy and companionship.

Patrick D Fagan (12:06.628)
wow. I didn't know that.

Emily Fenech (12:09.128)
Yeah, so people are using it for like companionship, conversation, just working through things. And when I think about it, I mean, I use it for that, like to help me prepare for conversations or to, you know, tell me how someone might interpret this, to make my emails, to, you know, make sure the tone is correct. So I think that's wonderful. you know, AI won't judge you. You can really share with it something, you know, a question that might, you might be afraid that you're asking a dumb question.

Patrick D Fagan (12:12.815)
Patrick D Fagan (12:18.533)
Mmm. Mmm.

Patrick D Fagan (12:24.798)
wow.

Emily Fenech (12:39.022)
or you might be afraid of being like I should know this by now that AI is not gonna judge you so I that actually doesn't surprise me that people are being honest with it and I I think it's wonderful you guys are piloting something like this yes

Patrick D Fagan (12:45.274)
Right.

Patrick D Fagan (12:50.821)
Yeah, for our teachers, give them some, because like I said, in a system this large, scalability. We have 80,000 teachers, right? How could we provide coaches to 80,000 teachers? That's impossible. That's just not fiscally feasible. And to your point, you raise an issue which goes back to one of your original questions. This also provides them with psychological safety. And that's also a challenge.

Emily Fenech (13:18.603)
Yeah.

Patrick D Fagan (13:20.227)
in a workplace that big where individuals feel sorry, this is one of your questions, like what some of the challenge is actually providing that psychological safety for our workers, for everyone to actually grow. And so that, I just wanted to just denote that.

Emily Fenech (13:38.388)
Yeah. No, I think it's wonderful you guys are piloting things with AI to support teachers. Because to your point, you can't provide that one-on-one coaches. How many teachers are in? Did you say 80,000?

Patrick D Fagan (13:51.191)
Approximately, I'm giving you obvious, a little under 80,000, but yeah, we have a large workforce of teachers. That's all backbone to our system.

Emily Fenech (13:54.902)
Wow.

Emily Fenech (14:01.578)
wonderful. Well, we

We're trying to keep this program to about 15 minutes and we're at the 15 minute mark. Do you have a key takeaway? We've talked about some challenges of scale of resources. We've talked about some exciting pilots that you're working on. Just to help us wrap it up, is there anything for our audience of folks in HR listening, a key takeaway or a piece of encouragement or advice you want to leave them with?

Patrick D Fagan (14:07.417)
Mm-hmm. No problem.

Patrick D Fagan (14:32.155)
Just once again, with during a time where buzzwords are at a high and everyone's just always looking for that new piece of technology or that AI to be the cutting edge, don't forget the people. I'm also sorry with very big on strength-based leadership and one of my top strengths is empathy. And we have to, as people leaders, be empathetic.

And we have to remember the individual. And that's something that I would like to leave with those who sit in this seat as a privilege and an honor to be a chief human resources officer, a people leader, is do not forget the people. The technology will come, but always remember the

Emily Fenech (15:25.814)
love that. Well, thanks again for being here. It's been a great conversation. And I know you've got important things to do today. So thank you, Dr. Fagan.

Patrick D Fagan (15:31.193)
Yes.

Patrick D Fagan (15:36.591)
Thank you, Emily, for having me. Bye bye.