Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The HeadRush Podcast with Paul Frase and Corey Berry takes you inside the reality of Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE) through the lens of football and rodeo. With firsthand experience in two of the most punishing sports, Paul and Corey share their stories, the lasting effects of head trauma, and the fight for awareness and support.
This is the Head Rush Podcast with Paul Fraze and Corey Barry
Welcome to the Head Rush Podcast. I'm Paul Fraze, and I played 11 years in the NFL, and our co-host, Corey Barry, rode professional rodeo for nine years. At the Head Rush Podcast, we talk about everything related to brain trauma, and we talk about brain health and wellness. We talk about, um, traumatic brain injury, TBI, chronic traumatic encephalopathy, t- um, CTE, TES, traumatic encephalop- encephalopathy
syndrome, and we talk about repeated head impacts, RHI. We cover how traumatic injuries, brain injuries can and will cause mental health issues such as depression, addiction, lack of executive function, uh, memory loss, even suicide ideology, as well as degenerative neurological issues. These symptoms can be found on the Mayo Clinic and Boston University websites under symptoms of CTE. Our mantra is to... is how to cope and find hope. We focus our energy on finding therapies and sharing hope through education and raising awareness.
This episode,
I think for all of us, is gonna... it's gonna be tough, and it's, uh... we're gonna get
to the heart of why we do the Head Rush Podcast, why Corey and I have, um, uh, decided to br- bring hope and bring awareness. And when I said one of the symptoms of, uh, rep- uh, repeated head impacts, when I, I mentioned suicide ideologies, unfortunately, um, our guest today
had to deal with suicide of a dear family member. And
personally, I can't even imagine that. I've never been affected f- from a family member
taking their own lives. But we're talking to a son and we're talking to a fiance that lost their father,
future husband.
And Casey, the son,
uh, um,
welcome,
and Callie-
Thank you
...
uh, welcome and, and, and thank you for being here.
And hopefully we're gonna... Corey and I have been, you know, Corey has been, uh, uh, uh, diagnosed since 30 years, his early 30s or las- late 20s, with some, um, what, what was the neurological i- issues that you dealt with?
Well, at 29 when I found out I had a broken neck, I was sent to UCSF, and, uh, they found me with cognitive nerve damage-
Mm-hmm
... uh, due to concussions and head trauma. And then, uh, I dealt with that until 2014
and all the symptoms I was going through. And when that one happened they said, "You know, a year ago we would've never been able to diagnose you."
He continued with the cognitive nerve damage because of the repercussions, and said it's all due to hitting my head.
Mm-hmm.
And then in 2019, I went to see Dr., uh, Alan Martin here in Dallas,
and then it was on my very first neurological exam that it came back suspected CTE.
And then again in 2022, when I got in that car wreck, I hit a tree at 65 miles an hour head-on
because a jack wagon decided to drive at me dead-on and I took to the ditch and lost control. I hit an oak tree at 65 miles an hour head-on,
and I dealt with all the trauma in that. And then a year and a half later,
October of '24,
I went down and saw Jeremy Tanner,
and he's with, uh, UT Health San Antonio, the Glenn Briggs Institute for Alzheimer's and Neurodegenerative
Diseases, and also a CTE evaluation center that's part of the Boston University. Boston University sent me there to get studied, and with all my past medical records
and going through their neurological tests and everything, they diagnosed me TES, traumatic encephalopathy syndrome, probable CTE. TES has four categories. It has suspected CTE, possible CTE, probable CTE, and then CTE. CTE only being diagnosed pos- post-
Mortem
... mortem.
So
I'm the closest you can get in the living
to being diagnosed with CTE.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
And so with that, I wanna get in, and Casey, me and you had a couple hour conversations about some of the symptoms and chasing that rabbit down the hole and suicidal thoughts, and I've lived with it. Callie, get you involved in this a little bit. We will not talk about how it happenedOr
anything that relates to the death of Pete. It's just he committed suicide. I don't wanna get into, you know, the steps of what it took for him to do it. I don't think that would do Pete justice on this podcast. But Casey,
I, I got a present for you.
Hit me with it.
I got a special guest coming on.
Oh, yeah?
Yeah. Can you guess who it is?
Um, I got a few, I got a few people in mind, but...
Ladies and gentlemen-
Wait
... welcome to the Head Rush Podcast. He's a very well-known cowboy, rodeo announcer. He's been down the road, he's bucked, he's done it all, ladies and gentlemen. Jim Bob Custer.
Wow.
Jim Bob, are you there?
Hey, guys. How's it going? Well, I'm happy to be on here today, guys. You know, uh, Pete, uh, meant a lot to me, and, uh, yeah, so happy to be here.
Love you guys.
And I thought-
You too
... it'd be great to have Jim Bob on with us to help navigate through some of this because he's been through it himself and, you know, I'm gonna probably get teared up here a little bit because it hits close to home, not because I knew Pete, but because
he was a bareback rider, a fallen cowboy,
you know? And it hits close to home to me. I know when I found out, Chad Walhauser called me up,
and Chad's like, "Hey, did you hear about Pete Kennedy?" And I said, "No, sir, I haven't." And he goes, uh, "He committed suicide."
And I was like, "Oh, wow," and I said, "You know,
I remember seeing him, but I don't think I ever held a conversation" because I'm older than he is. I'm 55, and, you know, I rodeoed back and I retired in '98.
But it hit home and, you know, with my tough cowboy
mentality,
I've been fighting.
It's...
I will never do this. I can't do this. You know, I will never commit suicide. We've lost cowboys. I know Jim Bob has met cowboys and they've committed suicide. I know cowboys that have committed suicide. I've known cowboys that's had the rage issues, and I actually had a friend
kill his wife and himself
while their daughter was riding in the arena out back.
So this is very deep subject, but what I'm getting is it opened up my eyes that,
you know, I believe suicide is wrong and it's horrible. And I told Pete, or I told Casey that I bel- when my buddy committed suicide, both of them, one of them I was asked to do the eulogy and I was like, "No, I ain't gonna do it." You know, he took the chick- chicken way out, and I'm not gonna support somebody that does that.
And this disease, and with me dealing with it now,
it made me come to the forefront that...
It could happen.
It could happen.
You could do it.
It is possible. I could chase that rabbit down that hole.
I felt it. I mean, it was-
I think it, it, it-
How long ago did I call you and I was in desperate mood?
Right. Re, re, very, you know, recently. Recently. Um, you, you, you feel this way
because you've had those thoughts before,
and many of us have in one way or another. And, and, and when you, when you understand the pain that somebody has been in to, to do that,
um, we can't even fathom it. We can't even... You know, I, I wanna ask you, you know, um, Kelly and, and Casey,
w- did you...
H- how long, Kelly, how long did you know Pete?
Nine years.
Nine years. Have, had you seen a g- gradual change from nine years ago until March 10th, I think, or...?
No. Um,
for me, it, it's ve- very difficult because, um,
the suicide was very sudden. I hadn't heard him mention those thoughts, those feelings in years.
Right.
Um, I had seen a slight gradual change in him just in a couple months, like from Thanksgiving until his eventual suicide. But not, not very much.
So when we talk about the symptoms of CTE, and, and, and first of all, we do not know
if your dad, your fiance,
had CTE. Now, you, you took, uh, I mean, you donated his brain to-
To University of Pittsburgh, and Casey-
Text me earlier and said they didn't have an update at this time.
Right
And we will update everyone here at the Head Rush podcast on what is found on this.
But, you know,
when it comes to this,
the diagnosis, even if it doesn't come back CTE, you know, um, Bruce Parkman just did a study on adolescents, and if they don't find CTE, you can ask, "Is there any brain damage?" Atrophy of the brain like me and you, Casey, talked about. And-
Yes
... maybe that'll give you some more closure if they can find that. Um, my brain's going to Boston University for Ann McKee to study.
It's that mind facility.
Paul's brain is doing the same. And, but Casey, talk to us about your dad a little bit, and then after Casey talks about his dad a little bit, I wanna bring up the symptoms-
Mm-hmm
... up on the screen.
Yeah.
And kinda go through it-
Kinda go through it, yeah
... with them, and we can discuss how I feel and how Pete feels. And maybe you, Jim Bob, may feel a little bit of this and wanna talk about it. For the, I know you can't be here for the full hour because you're working, but just have Casey talk about her father, talk about the CTE, and then we'll bring you in too, Jim Bob.
Yeah. No, I'd, I'd love to. You know, I, I, I'll just kind of touch here real quick, you know, uh, you know, I've known Pete for quite a few years. I was kinda trying to figure that out, how long I've actually known him, and I, I, I don't even, I can't even tell you, but it's been a, it's been probably 25 years or so. And, uh, got a chance to travel with him and stuff, and, and, uh, he was a pretty close friend. Um, one of the low points in my life, and Corey, as you and I were talking about my addiction earlier, you know, when I was kinda in the pretty low part of my life, um, Pete took me in and, and I went and lived with him and, and Dana and, and Casey there for a bit and, and, uh, kinda got dried out and stuff. And, and so it was, he's a big, been a big part of my life and that too. And, um, but you know, I was, I was figuring this. I was, I was just going over in my head how many times I actually saw Pete, um, get knocked completely out in rodeo, and I know for sure seven times when, that I was around him. Um, there was other times I know he hit pretty hard and kinda was knocked for a loop and stuff. But seven times that I can count right now where he was completely out for 20 to, 20 seconds to a minute, you know, in the arena. So I think that has a big, uh, you know, thing there. And, uh,
yeah, so I just, you know, if I can interject anything here, you know, I, I know it's, it was a, it was a shocker to me. Um, I know Pete was doing well, and he was excited about announcing rodeos, and he was getting some jobs, and, and things were going pretty good there. And, um, so
it was a little confusing for me, you know, that, that, that it went down the way it did. But, but at the same time, I, I understand and I know a little bit, you know, with Ty Posbon, and then Corey, as we were talking about, uh, the, is it Ochocinco, the, the football player?
Yeah.
Um, that's kinda when it really came out. And, and so I, I think there's something to that.
Um, and I'm, I myself in my life, and I know a lot of that was probably due to the addiction, but, uh, man, I, you know, I've fought suicidal thoughts, uh, and actually kinda got real close to it one time and had a little intervention. So I know it's real and, and, uh, it, it's just, it's a real thing, you know? So as hard as this, uh, podcast will be today to talk about all these things, I mean, I know Pete, in my mind, I, I mean, I'm settled with it because I know and we've had many conversations going down the road, um, he was a believer in Jesus Christ. He, his spirit is saved, and no matter what's happened to his body, he's gonna get a new body when, when the resurrection happens for us all. And so-
Mm
... I'm gonna see my friend again, and, uh,
that brings me peace.
A-
And I want that. That brings me peace.
A- amen to that hope. A- amen to that hope and, and that faith.
If you or someone you love is living with Parkinson's, MS, or symptoms associated with CTE, this is worth knowing. Ambio Life Sciences offers a novel alternative medicine called Ibogaine and operates the only Ibogaine clinic in the world for people with neurodegenerative disorders.
Many are reporting meaningful improvements in their quality of life after Ibogaine treatment. Interested? You can learn more about Ibogaine and apply at ambio.life.
One, one thing that we do share about head trauma,
um, one,
one severe or, or even moderate, uh, brain, a TBI, traumatic brain injury, can actually change your
whole persona within a year.
Your personality.
Your personality. You can be a different person after one of those seven concussions. Or, um,
a- and, and it's amazing that,
you know, the, the, the first, the first question out of neurologists', uh, my... You know, Corey was mentioning the, um, Bruce Parkman, um, study. Uh, at, he, he s- he funded a study at, uh, Boston University. Well, Bruce's son at 18 years old ran off a 80-foot cliff.
30 steps.
30, 30, 29 steps in 7.2 seconds and, uh, and, and, and that, that's how Bruce, uh, explains it. And he did not have CTE. Uh, Bruce found somebody that understood CTE, said donate the brain. They donated the brain. And
He did not have CTE, but Bruce kept pushing and said to the pathologist, the neuropathologist, "Hey, can you check the white matter? Can you check the fr- prefrontal cortex? Can you check the, for brain damage?" And he had brain damage.
So the, the study, uh, and it's, it hasn't... It's in pe- peer review right now. And the, but the study, it was 162 kids under 30 years old passed, and, um,
30, almost 40% had CTE.
And every one of them, every one of those 162 kids had, and these were athletes, uh, whether w- w- uh, uh,
young men, youngmen, women.
All 162 actually had, uh, mental health issues. All 162 had brain damage, whether it's the frontal lobe, the pre- I mean, uh, uh, the occipital lobe. What- whatever it was, they had brain damage. And-
Oh
... um,
w- I, Bruce Parkman, uh, said that 80, 80 of the 162-
Yeah
... actually committed suicide, and that's mental health issues period. Because out, out of 162 people,
young people under 30 years old, they're not gonna have... You're not gonna have 50% that have suicide ideologies unless
you got a, you got a hit to the head or some type of just horrible trauma, right? And, and, and Corey, you, you've shared with me
you didn't have suicide ideology, you didn't have thoughts of suicide until your big accident in 2019.
'22.
2022.
Mm-hmm. I didn't have any suicidal ideology. I had a little bit of executive function, neurological function, behavioral changes, uh,
some trembling in my right hand. I had all of that, but once the big accident happened,
for a year,
I mean,
I didn't know from day to day.
Mm.
You know? I had it planned out. I mean, that's the problem, I believe, with this disease is we plan it out. We think about it so much, and Jim, you talked about how you had suicidal thoughts. We think about how we're gonna do it. So once your mind is chasing down that rabbit hole, you already know it, and that's the problem. You already know how to do it. You don't have to think about it. You don't have to plan it. It's already there.
And me, Colt,
I'm a hard believer in exactly what I just said,
and I think with the steps that came up that that's what happened to Pete is he was chasing that rabbit down the hole, and it just happened. It was already... He already had the thought process from the damage and his suicidal thoughts. So it's not like I have to think about going and purchasing a gun or buying a knife or how am I gonna do this. It's already there. You already know it. Am I right, Jim?
And you know, Casey, Casey, Casey can kind of give you some, a little bit of insight on that, too, and, you know, if we can get him on here to talk about that a little bit. Because, you know, when this, when this happened, you know, one of the things that Casey told me was, he said, "Uncle JB, I was kind of prepared for this for, for a long time." Like, like, we've kind of known that, that Dad had these thoughts and, and things for, for a very, very long time. So,
you know, Casey, you can kind of fill 'em in on that a little bit.
For sure. For sure.
Yeah.
You know, and-
So Casey, you wanna talk about it a little bit and talk about your dad and-
Yeah, of course
... you know, let's talk about how he taught you how to ride. You know?
Yeah, for sure.
You know, one thing about my dad, you know, he was one of a kind. I mean, there, there was only one Pete, and I know Kelly and Jim Bob can second that. Um,
you know, he always wanted the best out of people, and he wa- always wanted the best out of me. You know, whether, you know, we saw eye to eye on beliefs or whatnot, he always wanted me to be the best I could be, and I'll always appreciate that. You know, but going to what Jim Bob was talking about, you know, I was about...
You know, talking about knockouts and injuries, I was really young when my dad was rodeoing. So, you know, I remember little bits and pieces, but one thing I do remember, and it's about when his mind took a turn and got a little strange. It was 2007, Old Tucson Studios here in Arizona, they used to have rodeo buckouts, and he went out the back door on the kick of a saddle bronc, and he was out I can't even remember how long. But I, as a six-year-old kid, I'm thinking, "Oh, my gosh, my dad's gone." Like, he's not moving. And, uh, ever since that moment, it slowly progressively got worse, and there's, especially at that time, there's so much unknown about brain injuries and CTE. You're just wondering what the heck's going on. And I was about, you know, 12, 13 years old when he first brought up the suicidal ideology. And you know, I'm, I'm young at that point, so I'm like, "What the heck?" Like, you're not supposed to think like that because also, to what Jim Bob said, my dad was a very holy man. He knew the Bible. He knew God. So it was very uncharacteristic. And it would come in waves. He would go through moments that he was okayAnd then out of nowhere it would hit. And, uh,
you know,
it would happen every now and then, every few months. And then when I was 15, he moved to Pennsylvania to kind of start fresh with his life. And, uh, you know, I would hear things from here and there about it. Um, he met Kelly, which was, you know, an amazing part of his life, and I'll forever be grateful for what she did for my dad. Um, but all those suicidal ideologies went out the door. Like, that wasn't a thing anymore. Um, but like Kelly said, you know, around November, there was a slight change. He, you know,
just wasn't himself. And, uh, the final four days he was alive ... You know, I'm a music producer, so sometimes I'm not by my phone a lot. I'm working on stuff, and he was calling me a lot, and I'll forever be grateful for that because his final four days on this earth, I got to talk to him, and it was pure, just genuine conversation. You know, my dad and I had a rollercoaster of a relationship, but one thing I can go forward in my life and remember, I love my dad and he loved me. And, uh, so Sunday night before everything happened, we had a great conversation, and it was, "I love you, Boog." You know, my nickname in the family is Boog. He's like, "I love you, Boog. I'll see you later." And, uh, that's the last thing I heard from my dad, and it just still doesn't feel real sometimes, you know?
How about you, Kelly? Tell us a little bit about since he moved to Pennsylvania and, and s- dating you, and living with you, and all of that.
Um, well, when he moved to Pennsylvania, um, it, it was, it was a rough go for him. Uh, it was. It was a rough go because I was still living in North Carolina. Um, we had, we had, uh, tried in the beginning to live together, and it was when I was drinking and Pete was also drinking. Um, I got sober in 2017, and Pete
had a really hard time with the addiction and was still struggling a lot with some mental health problems. Um, I know that he was still struggling with the depression and the anxiety, and that's when he first started going and seeing the doctors down at EPMC.
Um, he eventually was able to get on medication there, and that helped him a great, great amount. And then when we reconnected and he moved down in July of '23, um, one of my conditions was that he be completely sober. Um, I could not be, we were not good together if we were drinking. And so he was. He was completely sober. And so
for the year and a half that we lived together, um, we went on our little adventures every single month. Pete and I would openly talk about any of our mental health struggles, any thoughts of anything. We did not argue. Um, I did not see ... I had seen some of his rage prior. Um, a little bit just frustration, anger. It was more when he was in his throes of addiction. Um, and I understand that. I understand that. Um, later on, he, he was very kind, very gentle. Um, but I knew that he still struggled mentally with, it was more some depression. Um, but he never, never spoke of the suicide. He had talked of suicide years ago, but in the re- recent years, he was happy. We had future plans. We had all those things. So it was very, very confusing at the end. I mean, we did see a little bit of a change in him. Uh, the first time I experienced any, any of his rage was around, like, Thanksgiving,
and that was, like, our first real argument. So shortly after that, we, we had him get into the doctor
and start getting ready to see the neurologist, and get an additional MRI done.
And I know that he must have been really, really struggling in those last, last day, moments, minutes for him to do that because he was. That Bible sat on the nightstand every day.
Mm.
It was there. Um, he and I had openly talked about the suicide. You know, about how, you know, he always said that,
like you were saying, he, he was too chicken. He was too chicken. He wouldn't be able to do it.
And I don't know what snapped in the end.
One of the things that you're, you're gonna see, um ...
Did, did somebody have something to say? I didn't wanna interrupt anyway. Uh, one of the things you're gonna see, um, you know, we're gonna pop the symptoms up of, of CP-
Andrew, you wanna pop 'em up?
Um, and so
w- your neurologist, the neurologist that Pete was seeing, do you, do you, do you know, were ... Did you sit in any of the, um, meetings with the neurologist?
Uh, he killed himself, uh, f- four weeks before the neurologist appointment.
Okay. Okay.
So he had had an MRI done in January,
but we had not been able to see. He was just being treated by the family doctor.
Right.
I'll tell you r- just a quick story of, of my journey
down this path. Um, uh, I, I was doing pretty darn good. Um, I, I did drink, uh, uh, too much, and, um, I, I lost a son, um, gosh, 15... He, he was, he was 40 days shy of his 16th birthday. And people would say to me, "Y- I, I think you're depressed, Paul." And, uh, and I'm like, "Well-I don't think I am, but I lost my s- I lost a son, so, uh, uh, okay, I'm d- depressed, right? Well, I was drinking too much, but at 47 years old, some- something happened. My... I went totally apathetic. I, it, it, it s- it seemed like my brain chemicals just shut down. Everything was just, it was weird. And then I s- I, I had rage.
I had uncontrollable rage. Once in a while I, I would get angry before, but I would able to, you know, I'd get ticked off and that it, I'd be able to pull it back in. But at that point, I didn't care. Jugular veins popping out, I'm yelling at my 13-year-old beautiful daughter, "You're gonna listen to me this time. I'm right. I know I'm right." And about six months later, Chris Nowinski, who founded the, um, um, the Concussion Legacy Foundation, who I had known, um, for a few years before because he actually helped us raise some money
for f- our foundation, our son's foundation, the Joshua Frey Foundation. But
he was already working with Boston University. He said, "Hey Paul, you wanna, uh, we, we're trying to find biomarkers for CTE, uh, you know, you wanna come up and do a clinical trial with us?" And I'm like, "Yeah, let's, let's go. Something's wrong. I don't know what it is." I started finding out what CTE
is,
and I said to myself, "If, if I,
if I'm organic to the point where I cannot make a cognitive decision to stop my rage, I'm screwed."
So I, I said, "You know what? I'm gonna s- I'm gonna make a point of, I'm gonna make a point of walking out the front door when I feel myself going zero to 60." And I started doing that. And I went from
once every two or three weeks of rage to once a quarter to once every six months to all of a sudden, I do it once in a great while if somebody really ticks me off on the road, right? A little road rage. But
this is this insidiousness of this disease. If you don't know, if we don't know, and this is why we're doing this podcast, and we're, we're doing, you know, we're d- we're talking to you b- because we want you to know
you couldn't have done anything. It wasn't your fault. Even if, even if you were at odds with your dad, you know, you said sometimes rough, maybe you... I, I, I don't know what would this, whatever. It,
it... I, I actually, a friend of mine who I played with
in the NFL,
um, he was acting the fool for the last 10 years of his life, and he got kicked out of his house by his son.
And he died, and it
come to find out he has CTE. And I had a conversation with his, uh, his wife and his three kids, and I said, "You didn't know.
Don't blame yourself for kick, kick, kicking him out, you know, out, out of the house. Don't blame yourselves for not doing this, this, and this, and this.
You couldn't have done anything." And he didn't know.
So I've got, I've got guys that I am talking to, I've talked to, that wanna off themselves that I played ball with or I, I know that played ball and they're, and they once-
Or do a podcast.
And they, and one said, "I wanna, I wanna check out. Time to go." I said, "No, no, no, there's a better way." So why we do this is there is a better way. And in, in simply knowing what you're dealing with, if, if,
if Pete, I honestly believe, never met Pete, never met any of you, and I honestly believe that if Pete
knew about CTE or he had studied it or he had understood what his body was going through, that's... He did it... You, you said Kelly, that he, you had seen his rage, but he had calmed down, and he was, he was a gentle person most of the time, I guess, right?
Oh, yeah. I never... The only time that I, I saw the rage was at Thanksgiving.
So-
It was one day and he immediately changed.
So-
Like, I mean, like he apologized. Like I didn't, I didn't... I think possibly KC might have seen it more, and I know knowing CTE,
there's waves of it.
Right.
But I saw Pete at the end were more memory problems.
Mm-hmm.
More a dementia.
And I, I do know that he was getting ea- more easily frustrated with himself in doing-
Yeah, I noticed that
... tasks. Doing-
I noticed that
... certain tasks.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. I noticed that too.
Kelly, when, when, when we talked, when we talk on the phone, you know, he would talk about, you know, how frustrated he'd get and stuff and, and, uh, you know, the last time I talked to him was, gosh, in January and he was, you know, kinda planning on going to the, uh, uh, the IFR to, and he was gonna take the judging course and all that, but he didn't know if he should. And, you know, he just was-
I-
I could tell there was some something going on there at that time too, you know? So...
That, that's why we had scaled back on doing any of the rodeos this year as well.
Mm-hmm.
Because it was becoming... It, it was, it, you know, rodeos are very, very fast-paced. His brain couldn't keep up with that.
Mm-hmm.
So I was like, "Okay,"
Yeah
... "well, go ahead and..." I mean, he's very knowledgeable. I mean, he, he knew his stuff, but
it's just his brain could not move fast enough to, to really announce what he needed to announce.So that's why we were looking at this year doing more of the horse shows
This episode of the Headrust Podcast is brought to you by our personal doctor and team of doctors, uh, Dr. Miz- Mizell DeMayo, and she's with the Paradise Behavioral Health, and we are in the Brain Well program, which is also part of the Millennium Health Center. Uh, Dr. Mark Gordon, you've seen him on Joe Rogan and even on our show, the Headrust Podcast. Um,
and, uh, hormones. And Mizell is awesome. We love her. She's, she's our doctor of psychiatry. She works for the Mark Gordon program with the hormones, and, uh, and she j- she adds her twist of genetics and, um, and it's, it's, it, it basically is melding two wonderful, uh, uh, mediums together, and we're getting great help from Dr. Mizell DeMayo. So please check out her website at paradisebehavioral.com. She's- Look up the Brain Well program. Get involved. She- She's sponsoring us. They're, they're sponsoring us for the next year, so we are excited to have them on board, and, uh, and, and shout the new- the good news to everybody, uh, uh, do- that is watching these broadcasts, so. Is she helping you, Paul? Absolutely. Absolutely. She's helping me, so go check her out, paradisebehavioralhealth.com.
If you look at it-
Right
... it's very, I mean, signs of dementia, uh, including memory loss, confusion, impaired judgment, impulse control problems, aggression, depression, anxiety, suicid- su-
Suicidality
... suicidality, Parkinsonism, and eventually progressive dementia. These signs often begin years or even decades after the last brain trauma or end of an active athletic involvement. And they say 10 to 15 years after your last one.
A- after your last sub-concussive hit, they've found, uh, they have found, um, inflammatory cytokines that show you still have inflammation. And basically, it's a cascading effect, effect. And, and especially seven total knockouts. Um, we know, uh, Corey, from kind of going back over his career, had,
um, thousands-
Numbers
... and thousands, pro- probably 10,000. Every time that horse bucked, and, and I don't believe, uh, Dr. Kelly, uh, uh-
Nowinski?
No, no, no. It was Dr. Kelly that said, uh, I don't, I don't... Oh, was it Nowinski?
Yeah.
Anyway, every time that horse bucked, you said 12 times in eight seconds.
Right.
And would that-
And do you agree with that, Jim Bob, average is 12 bucks per- Yeah ... eight seconds? Yep. So- Up to 12 or 13, yeah.
So, so, a- and, and we're talking you, you, you said something like 40 Gs, 48?
48 Gs it was counted at. In Houston, Texas at Rodeo Houston years ago, they did a study and they put earpieces in the ears of a bull rider and a bareback rider.
And a bareback rider, it was on an average of 46 Gs, and at what, at one point
it was 48 Gs. And when I was talking to a guy about it, I said, "The 48 Gs," 'cause he lost his chin, that extra snap.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh-
Yep ... back in our day, we didn't have the big, and even Jim Bob's day, you didn't have the big neck rolls. We had the self-made with the medical sock, and you wrapped it around your body. Uh-huh. So we still had quite a bit of this, and it's like I tell people, you know,
Clint Corey, Louis Fields,
them guys I don't think will ever see the... Well, Louis, I guess Casey said that Louis had dementia towards the, or not dem- started with a little bit of dementia towards the end. But, um, because they were so proper in their bareback riding.
You know, so kept a perfect seat, kept the chin tuck, kept... Where I was more of the Bruce Ford and
Marvin Garrett. You know, I was the laid back, lean a little bit to the right so that bind holds a little bit tighter, and let her go. And I've been knocked out while on top of a horse.
Yeah. That's how Casey rode 'em too. Rared back and spurred the wild out of 'em.
You know-
They do-
You guys are crazy. You guys, you g- you guys have a screw loose. I, I, I don't, I don't know how you do it.
But he runs into a 300-pound man.
Well, yeah, over and over and over and over again, yeah. No, I say that endearingly.
Well, so if we look at the symptoms,
let me ask you a question.
Yeah.
What'd you have for dinner last night?
Uh, I've never been to that restaurant
in the, you took, you took us to. Um,
freaking fried pickles.
What else?
I never had a fried pickle. Uh, what, what else?
BLT.
Don't ask me.
But
I can't- Took a minute though.
Yeah, it did. It took a minute, yeah, yeah. I was scratching my head, but-
If you look at it, I can't remember my wedding.
I know I got married, but I can't remember it. You ask me a movie I watched last week,
don't even think about it. A few days ago, don't even think about it
Um, rage issues. You've seen it with me and my wife where I start to get built up.
You, you pull it back pretty quick.
I try to-
You try to-
I try to pull it back real quick, and it's,
it's hard on us because if you think about it, it's like I told Paul this morning. I was sitting there. Dude, talk about things that just flop in your mind. It's flopping right now, matter of fact. But I was thinking about putting feathers on a branch.
That, that's what was-
And my brain just got stuck on putting feathers on a branch. My brain gets stuck...
Well-
What's the word my wife wanted me to say today?
I don't remember.
I don't either. You know? And this is what I'm talking about. So-
It's-
... it's hard for us, and if you put me, he's seen me in a restaurant setting. He's seen me around a lot of people. My multitasking is shot.
You put me, I can't go to a, a rodeo anymore and enjoy it. There's too much going on all at once, and I can't absorb it. It's too much noise, too much confusion, too much everything, and I miss rodeo. I mean, it was part of my life my whole life until I retired in '98.
One, one thing I wanted to mention, Pete, you said had l- learned to... So I, I learned to control my b- rage because I knew something was wrong,
and I started finding out what it was, you know, medically, right? Pete, obviously there was something about his rage that he did not like. Obviously he had conversations with you, Kelly. Um, he had probably more heated conversations with you because you got too many tattoos, and you're, you know, s- singing, singing the wrong type of music. I have no idea. Just kidding. Just, just kidding. But-
He's a reggae man.
But, um, but Pete, Pete's faith, that Bible on, the, it was telling him how to deal with his rage and his anger, right? You know, be, be slow to anger, you know? And, uh, that faith,
it helped him, you know? And, and, and, and guided him. But th- th- this is what I'm, and I may have already said this,
this is why we do this, because if we educate people about,
you know, this insidious disease, this TBI or this CTE, or, hey, you might be, you might have hit your head a little too hard, that's why you might be doing the things you're doing,
look into it. And, and, and the pr- th- the interesting thing is we still, you, you were saying, um, you were saying how smart Pete was,
right?
Oh, he was smart as a whip, man.
Right.
Yeah, smart as a whip.
He, he didn't, he didn't lose his ability to think and reason. He just lo- lost his ability to do it fast and do it efficiently and do it where he could actually function out in public, right? And, and so, so but,
but somehow he did sense the anger and rage was not right, and he wanted to stop it. And he got, he grabbed ahold of his faith, and he was able to do that through the faith, th- through his faith. I'm a preacher's kid, so I, I definitely, uh-
Jim Bob is a preacher. Every morning-
Oh, he-
... you can go to Jim Bob Cousins-
Oh, yeah?
... at 8:00 AM.
6:00.
Oh, yeah, 6:00 your time.
Yeah, 8:00 AM California time, 8:00 AM my time, 6:00 California his time, and he'll talk about the Good Book and pray and all of that, so.
Well, well, and, and I guarantee
k- knowing the things that you've been through, you know, and knowing, I mean, you, you've, you've ridden countless rides and shooken your h- you sh- shooken your head a lot, and who knows?
Yeah. Well, you know, when Cory and I were talking, and I think I even talked to Casey a little bit about this, but, um, you know, I talked with Ryan Gray and, and, uh, a couple other guys that were professional rodeo athletes. And, and, you know, we talked about this too. You know, when... I know a little bit about addiction, uh, because I went to a treatment center and found out kind of all the scientific things about, uh, addiction. And, uh, but, you know, uh, we go through this life where we, we rodeo, and we're, we're adrenaline rush. And we get this, this, these huge amounts of dopamine release, almost like we're drug addicts before we, you know, when we're not actually on drugs and things. And, and so the more that happens where you get these unhealthy releases of dopamine, uh, to your brain, you know, your, your hedonic, uh, set point, it's called the feel-good meter, uh, your, your dopamine release will hit that, and your brain will tell it, "That feels good." Then it stores it with a- another excitatory, uh, chemical called glutamate as a memory. And the more times that happens over and over and over again that it goes beyond that, that set meter, kinda like when you're sick, your temperature raises, so your hedonic set meter gets reset. So now you got a, a feel-good meter that's way up here, and the only thing that can hit that to make it feel good is the same drug that was shooting past the original point to begin with. And now all the regular things like, uh, hugging your wife and, and, and, and eating a piece of pie or just the normal things that, that we do, working out, things like that, it's not giving us enough of a dopamine to hit-That hedonic set meter, the, the feel-good meter. And so that's where the depression comes in. And so, you know, there's something to that as well. Uh, a- and I mean, I know we're talking about CTE and all these other things with the concussions and that, but I just, I just feel like it's all tied together. And, um, you know, if we could just kinda educate people on, on what it's gonna be like when, when you, when you quit rodeoing or, or what have you, then you won't maybe turn to those, those things that... You know, those addiction, the thing, the, the, the drugs and chemicals that cause that huge amount of dopamine release. And, uh, you're gonna kinda know that the depression's coming and, and so that was where, you know, for me, going to treatment and finding out about addiction was huge for me. Because now I know what I'm fighting. I can see it. It's tangible. I, I know my enemy, and now I know what I'm fighting. And so I think with this podcast and what you and Paul are doing is, is a good thing because it's getting people to maybe realize that if they're seeing some of these symptoms in their life, that that could be the, what it is. And so now we know the enemy. Now we know what to fight, and, and now we can make a game plan to fight that. And so, you know, in the, in, in honoring Pete through all this, you know, um, it, it's been a tough deal for me. You know, Pete was a good friend of mine, and, uh, we talked a lot, uh, throughout the years and, and, uh, it's been a tough thing for me. But I know one thing. You know, Pete was a guy that wanted to help people. Pete was always a giver. I mean, he was one of the most generous guys that I ever met. I mean, honestly was. And, uh, and so I think, you know, if, if we can just keep his memory alive and just keep, keep sharing with people and, and maybe we can help people, you know, that's what Pete would want us to do. I s- I believe that, you know? And so I think you guys are doing a good thing and, and, uh, it, it's a, it's a beautiful thing that we're talking about this right now, you know?
And you look at it. I lost empathy, apathy. I can't smell.
I can grab Clorox and go
nothing.
Mm-hmm.
But your feelings, do you feel sympathy?
I, I... When I was 47 years old and that chemical change happened in my brain, I flat-lined. I absolutely... And, and,
and I was a very passionate person before then,
and, um,
and I, I knew,
I knew how I s- I, I knew how I was supposed to feel.
And in the empathy and the sympathy, when you ha- when you have a son with a muscle disorder who he can't walk or crawl, and in the last five years you're carrying a, a, him around-
Right
... um,
you, you, you know what that feels like, and you have, uh, you have sympathy and empathy for other people. So I knew what that feeling was, but I lost it. It was crazy. It's gone. But, but I actually... It was almost like you, you fake it until you make it.
I was just gonna say that.
Oh, yeah. You-
You know, my wife just had a gallbladder attack.
I had my gallbladder taken out two years ago, and I'm like, "Meh, I had mine done two years ago. No big deal." You know?
But what did you act like, though? Did you, did you-
Yeah, I d-
Did you force yourself to say, or no?
I, yeah. The, it, what can I do for you? What is there? I mean, you, we have to force ourselves.
This episode of The Head Rush Podcast is brought to you by the Patrick Rysha CTE Awareness Foundation. Their goal is the, to spread awareness about the dangers of RHI, repetitive head impacts, after losing their son, Patrick, to CTE. Sadly, there are too many like Patrick that have lost their families, jobs, and sometimes their lives, and this foundation is working hard to stop the devastation than c- that can come from not protecting the brain. This foundation provides parents of school-aged children with information about the dangers of sports, concussive sports and activities which involve head trauma.
They advertise on social media, print media, and billboards. Please follow them on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok, and share their ads with others. And please visit their website, stopcte.org, to find ways to help people recognize the disease if confronted with it in their family, and how to prevent the suffering that can come to families when a brain is damaged. The website has medical forms to take to doctor's visits and advocacy letters if you want to help make change in your community. And their most recent campaign is geared up to help coaches build brain healthy teams. You can use the information on stopcte.org website to understand CTE, live with CTE, and prevent CTE. Please visit. Thank you. And don't knock it.
Stop C-
There you go
... stopcte.org.
Yeah.
Nicola Duke sent this to me. Romans 5:3-5, and this may help Casey and Kelly. "Not only that, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit."
Amen.
Amen.
That's what keeps me driving, is because it says it right there. Suffering-
Yeah
... produces endurance. Endurance into character. Character into hope. So-
Amen
... I wanted to read that before you go, and I appreciate-
Jim, Jim Bob
... you being here, Jim Bob.
Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.You bet, guy. Thanks for having me on here. Casey, I'm glad I could come on with you b- today, buddy, you and Kelly both, and, uh, just, uh, know I love you guys and I'm thinking about you, and give me a call later.
Yep, will do Uncle JB. Love you, man.
Love you too, buddy. Cory and both. Thank you guys.
Thank you. Bye.
So Casey, back to your father, and Kelly you could chime in. With what I've been talking about on my symptoms and what I deal with, and I've told you I've chased the black hole or the rabbit down the hole.
You know,
when me and you talked, you said that it helped you so much understanding that someone else was going through it like,
and me and Pete were a lot alike in that symptoms.
And
it means so much to me when you said that because I just hope that I can bring something to you.
And Karen, and Kelly, if there's anything I can do or if you have any questions,
um, please ask us. I mean, that's why we're here. Do you have any thoughts or any questions about what you think?
My hardest thing is just knowing,
it, it's just what I have to deal with,
seeing and how quickly
things can change for you guys.
Mm.
Um, I mean, I know, I've, you know, I knew Pete when he,
when he did have those suicidal thoughts before,
but everything had changed so much after he moved to North Carolina. Um, for him to have that small fall last around like Halloween, and within a couple weeks ex- I started experiencing some changes with him, how quickly even just a simple fall
can change a personality in a person.
Hmm.
It flips a switch with me if I trip.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that's, that's-
I, I could bounce again-
... what it's like
... I could bounce against the wall and next thing you know I'm pissed.
Hmm.
Because what normal man can't walk down a hall without bouncing against the wall? What normal human can't make that dang turn? It just gets me irritated and I get fired up. I'll get in the shower and I have to do everything in steps now. I can't just go, "Well, soap now, do this and then do this." It has to be outlined.
That's what I was having to start to do with Pete in those last couple weeks.
Mm-hmm.
Was I was having to literally write things down for him, like a to-do list, steps. Um, but I knew, it, it was hard for me to explain to him
that
knowing whatever I, I, I, I assume no matter what, when somebody has that much trauma to the brain with those repetitive head injuries over the years o- of rodeo that he had,
you're gonna have damage to the brain and it's going to be progressive and degenerative.
And I would try and stress that to him that no matter what medication he was going to go on or whatever the neurologist was going to say, there are gonna be changes,
but we can work through those things. We, there are steps you can take, like you said, you know, not want simple tasks.
You just have to follow, follow steps.
And I don't know if his i- in the cognitive at the end that it was even difficult for him to think of that.
I don't know.
Well, he didn't know what he was dealing with. He didn't know that he probably had CTE because he was getting ready to go see a good neurologist that would've got him there. And if you don't know what you're dealing with, when I didn't know, I mean, I had a, we watched a movie Concussed with Will Smith and my wife got teary-eyed and said, "That's you."
Hmm.
You know, I watch Concussed American Dream and Tyler leaving the refrigerator open or milk on the counter, that's me.
Mm-hmm.
But i- if you don't confront the issue or find out what's wrong, we can't look at it head-on and say, "This is it. Now what do I do?" You can't do it. And I just wanna stress, I mean,
I got a Rolodex
of people I call when I'm dark.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm so thankful for that because I can't rely on just my wife, and my wife is my caregiver. And
I know you started connecting with CLF, you told me Kelly, and that's awesome. You know, my wife's a caregiver in the group. She's also in the ambiguous loss.
And the ambiguous loss group
is,
I didn't know it, and I got teary-eyed on the podcast when we talked about it because I didn't know what it meant. It's losing,
it's a different person than who you were with.
Mm-hmm.
And for my wife to have to go to a group to learn how to deal with somebody that she didn't marry 26 years ago is heartbreaking to me because, oh my God, am I that bad?
Hmm.
You know? And then, then I get negative because I think of it, and then I want, then I stay in this negative mood and I can't get out of it. And Casey, and I mean, we talked about this deep.
Yes, sir
And,
you know, I do not blame
Pete for what he did. I can't say it was a cowardly act. I can't.
Yeah. You, you know, one thing that I've really processed, I've been very perceptive to this whole thing, and it's been rough, but one thing I've really thought about is he's not in pain anymore. As ha- as hard as that is to come to realization with, and it's gonna take everyone a long time, like he's not suffering anymore. 'Cause I mean, I saw that man go through a lot, and I saw him try, and I saw him fall down, and I saw him get back up, and it was just always a constant battle for him. But one thing that I'm at peace with is number one, that man had love in his heart. I saw it in his final days, and he was close with the Lord, number two, so I know he's up in heaven. And number three, my father is at peace. My father is not hurting anymore. 'Cause that's one thing he didn't like to do. Like when he would go through his rage, you know, he would act out, but he would regret it. A- and Kelly can, can agree with me on that. We've talked about it a lot. It's like he would instantly just break down and regret what he did.
Hmm.
So he didn't wanna hurt people. He didn't wanna hurt himself, but he was in so much pain and it's ... So I don't blame him either, Corey. I, I really don't. But I do miss him and yeah, man, it's just rough, you know?
Oh, terribly rough. I couldn't imagine. I mean, I've lost friends, you've lost friends to suicide, and dealing with that is separate than, you know, you losing your son's probably the closest thing, and that's not even that. You know, me losing my father and my mother, I lost them both due to cancer,
but I knew it was coming. I dealt with it by watching the digression. It wasn't an all a sudden movement and now it's gone. You know, when I get the phone call of a buddy of mine that shot himself in his pickup at midnight, that's startling enough.
Hmm.
But it's not family.
Well. Well-
And so we like to
... And if there's anything you two need, please reach out.
Um, I know that you've asked for if anybody's donating anything, to donate to the Concussion Legacy Foundation. Am I correct-
Yeah
... Casey?
And so you can reach out to concussionlegacyfoundation.com.
.L.
Make a donation. If you need help, if you're struggling and you're trying to find hope,
you know, you can reach out to the suicide hotlines. You can reach out to the Head Rush podcast. You can reach out to a friend. You know, I'm sure if Jim Bob was still on the line, he would've wished that, you know, Pete would've just called him and said, "Hey dude, I'm struggling."
But I'll tell you right now, when I'm in that deep hole, I don't wanna call them numbers because they don't understand.
You know? I needed a list of people like Paul that understand because they've been in that dark hole.
And if you don't understand it, it's lonely up here.
I'm, I'm, I'm battling myself 24 hours a day.
I can't sleep sometimes because I, this thing just won't shut off.
Hmm.
And
if you're struggling, reach out and talk to somebody. Reach out and talk to a pastor. You know, talk to a friend. Talk to a family member. It's not worth the sacrifice. You know, it may be ease for us, but look what it does to a family. You know, reach out and get help.
I know, uh, we, we, we usually ask,
we usually ask our guests
to share
with us how they're hopeful
for the future of CTE or how they ... But I wanna tell you, you, you two,
y- you two have giving, given me hope,
right?
And,
you know, the
n- the knowledge we have, we wanna share,
and you, you two, the two of you were ...
You embraced the opportunity to teach us about Pete.
I didn't know Pete. Now I think I know him just a little bit,
and
he s- he seems, seemed like a, just a fantastic human being.
And thank you.
Right.
And yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
What a picture.
No, yeah. You know, we-
Look at that
... we appreci- yep, yeah. I love it.
Yeah.
It's awesome.
And also my coworker just got me some pictures if you can see it.
That's great.
Oh, that is awesome.
That's powerful.
Yeah, that was at our last rodeo we announced in, uh, July.
Yeah.
That's great.
You know, Chad Nicholson-
Yeah
... was a real good friend of mine, and I always thought about going to rodeo announcing school and doing that, and I was gonna go to Chad's rodeo school in Carrollton, Texas. Before he passed away, he got in an auto accident. Um, Jeep rolled on top of him. But it was
... I can't comprehend fa- ... I know what I wanna say,
but by the time I know what I wanna say and what I say are two different things.
That was Pete.
Yep.
It was me a lot. I had to work-
How'd you just-
... really hard helping him at the rodeos, and I was not familiar. I ran the music and he was knowledgeable, but his brain would... It, it just needed to, yeah, just struggle.
Yeah.
Right. So, uh-
KC, did you wanna say something? Did, did-
Yeah. You know, I just wanted to say how much my family and I, Kelly included, you know, we appreciate you guys so much. And, uh, you, y'all have a friend in myself and my family forever because, you know, when all of this happened, you know, there were the little things that were known. But ever since I started talking to Corey and starting to get to know you a little bit, Paul, it's just, like, I've learned so much, and you guys are bringing hope to something that isn't talked about enough. 'Cause this is happening. I mean, I have friends that play football, I still have friends that rodeo, just all contact sports, and it s- seems to be happening more and more. And just the fact that you guys are willing to come to the public and spread awareness and spread knowledge, it just means a lot to my family, and I know it means a lot to anybody who's tuning in, 'cause I know I've got a lot of friends that are watching the show and tuning in. So just thank you, guys.
And thank you for billing, billing, being willing to come on and talk about such a sensitive subject. And,
you know, and you hear me say it, KC, when me and you have long talks, is, you know,
it's hard for me to feel it.
Yeah.
But I'm thankful that you're willing to come on
and talk and bring awareness to such a horrible disease. And we'll keep following up with the University of Pittsburgh. And when we get the information, we'll invite you back on, and we'll talk more about it. Kelly, you're welcome to come on. If you need anything, please reach out, ma'am. You know, we southern folk, we like to be there for each other.
Um-
Yes, sir.
Heck yeah.
You know, and Arizona's southern folk too. They're southern United States.
Yep. Yeah.
No, now, now you're... I, I grew up in New Hampshire-
It's a little different out here, but yeah.
I was born in Elmira, New York, and grew up in New Hampshire. Now you're gonna call me a Yankee, aren't you? Well, we, we, we love you guy-
I actually grew up in Pennsylvania.
So.
We love you guys. Um, our new family. Thank you.
Yes.
Yes.
Thank you so much. Appreciate it.
And please go to our Facebook page, our Instagram, our YouTube channels. Please share, like, follow,
comment. Go to our website. If you have any suggestions of what you want us to talk about or anyone you think's important, please reach out to us and let us know.
And tell us how we're doing.
We're, we do this to raise awareness of this disease. And we do this on, on, uh, again, we, we feel like family with, uh, Kelly and KC. Um, and thank you for letting us be a part of your family. So-
Thank you
... with that, what do you, what do we say? Stay-
Stay alert
... stay alert and stay alive.
Stay alive.
So-
All right
... we love you guys.
This podcast is for general information only and does not constitute the practice of medicine. The use of this information and the materials linked to this podcast is at the user's own risk. The content of this podcast is not intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Users should not disregard and delay in obtaining medical advice from any medical condition they have, and they should seek the assistance of their healthcare professionals for any such conditions.