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A podcast from Teachers College, Columbia University about play and pop culture. Professors Haeny Yoon and Nathan Holbert take play seriously. They talk with educators, parents and kids about how they play in their work and their lives, and why play matters.
The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the speaker to whom they are attributed. They do not necessarily reflect the views of the faculty, administration, staff or Trustees either of Teachers College or of Columbia University.
Haeny:
Welcome to Pop and Play, the award-winning podcast all about play in its many silly, serious, and powerful forms. I'm Haeny Yoon.
Nathan:
And I'm Nathan Holbert. We are two education researchers that figured it might be fun to do something other than look at budget spreadsheets for a change, so each week we chat with other scholars, artists, activists, parents, and children about the significance and value of play in their lives.
Haeny:
In this season, we've been exploring what it means to play roles, whether in games, craft, or theater and today, we're talking about children's pretend play.
Nathan:
Woo-hoo.
Haeny:
Yeah. We'll be talking to Carmen Llerena, first grade teacher and scholar on children's play. But while Carmen is brilliant...
Nathan:
She is.
Haeny:
... we also felt it'd be important to talk to the true experts on pretend play: kids.
Nathan:
Oh, I thought you were going to say me.
Haeny:
Okay, and you. So, we got a chance this season to go visit kids at school to learn from their play. Obviously if you've been around kids, it's delightful and fun, but also, yes, chaotic.
Nathan:
Tiring.
Haeny:
Tiring, confusing, but filled with hugs and a lot of love. So we're going to go back to our own childhoods as if people haven't heard enough about our lives.
Nathan:
This podcast doubles as like a diary or a therapy session.
Haeny:
Yeah. Now you know everything about me and Nathan. Okay. So we thought we would follow the kids' lead because they do the base materials, storylines, and social relationships, so I thought I'd start, Nathan, by asking you, what is a storyline that you remember that you fully committed to in your play?
Nathan:
There was a form of play, like a pretend play that my friend and I who lived just down the street from me would do all the time and we just called it Warriors. We'd be like, "Hey, you want to go play Warriors?" And he'd be like, "Yeah, let's go play Warriors." And this is...
Haeny:
Okay. I don't know where this is going.
Nathan:
It's as boring as it sounds. And we just literally, it was living out those 1980s action movie. Like we're heroes, we're fighting the bad guys, and we're on an adventure. And so it was a lot of just picking up a stick that now is a sword of some sort and going to fight things. And it was like the idea of playing quote unquote "Warriors" is just enough of a seed of an idea that it doesn't really mean anything, but it's enough to where you can just go crazy with it.
Haeny:
Yeah. Did you have names for your warriors? Did you name yourself?
Nathan:
I do not remember a name. That doesn't mean there wasn't. I'm sure there must have been, but I don't remember them at all.
Haeny:
No. What would you name yourself now? Right now I'm actually in my mind simultaneously replacing Warriors and Gladiators so now I'm like, "Oh, Nitro." I'd be Nitro.
Nathan:
Oh, so you're Nitro?
Haeny:
I'd be Nitro. That was actually my favorite American Gladiator.
Nathan:
Tell me about you. What storylines did you play?
Haeny:
I was not prepared for this question to be thrown back at me. I think the reason why I have a hard time getting into role-playing games that go into some fantasy never-never land is because I was always in real land for all my games. And so when I would play, we would play a lot of different things, but it'd be like grocery store, library. Let's check out books from the library. I was really into that, though.
Nathan:
Did you ever play, though, because I played very hard to gender stereotypes, obviously, by running around and playing Warrior all the time. Did you ever do the mom thing or the school thing?
Haeny:
I don't actually remember ever playing a mom.
Nathan:
Oh, wow. Yeah.
Haeny:
Yeah, that was not my jam. I just remember service work. So library, grocery store.
Nathan:
Shout out to our service workers. Well what about... So another thing that we noticed whenever we were talking to kids, the experts of pretend play, is that materials drive a lot of the play. So what about for you? Were there particular materials that you've really spent a lot of time with and converting into new things?
Haeny:
Yeah. I think I was better at that. So I think when we went into the classroom, I did notice that a lot of the kids actually were so creative about how they come up with things and use whatever was on hand to create play and I think that's the thing that's so lovely about children's play, especially in school when they don't have all the things around them.
And so for a long time I really wanted to be a tap dancer. That was a dream of mine, but I didn't really have tap shoes, right? I also had no idea where I should get tap shoes from.
Nathan:
Right. Where does one even get tap shoes?
Haeny:
Well, I do know I did actually get tap shoes once when I actually had money. But I didn't have them, so I would use those bottle caps that are on top of soda pops.
Nathan:
Yeah, like a glass soda bottle, yeah.
Haeny:
Yeah, those glass soda bottle things. So I would take those and then I would save them and I would tape them on the bottom of my shoe, and our basement had this linoleum, it was hard, and so I would tap dance in the basement with my bottle cap shoes, which was actually very cool.
Nathan:
One of the things I love about that story is it makes me think of how tape is the most magical material for kids. My daughter will tape things. She just goes through rolls of tape so fast. And the kids that we got to talk to in Carmen's class also really, tape became a really... It's a magical material.
Haeny:
Yeah it's a magical material. And tape was definitely a thing in that classroom, too, so very cool. So what do you remember about school and play since we're going to be going into school?
Nathan:
So I remember recess. Recess is my core memory when it comes to school and play. I don't really remember doing a lot of play in the classroom. And we had, the school I grew up in, Diamond, Missouri. Shout out Diamond Elementary School. They had this kind of absurd playground. So they had these two huge structures that were welded steel. There was a big farming program, Future Farmers of America program at the school and the kids in the school had made these, I think, and one was this huge pirate ship that had a deck that you could run around on and be crazy, but it also had a maze underneath it. It was just metal rods that were welded in such a way that you could crawl through this maze, which was very cool until you got bigger and then you would just get stuck all the time because you're too big.
Haeny:
Oh my God, that's like my worst nightmare.
Nathan:
It was a little terrifying. And then we also had these two huge steel castles that had been welded together, and they were pretty big. They had three or four stories, but what was great about them was because it was just like steel tubing that was basically welded together to make these things, you could climb on the outside of it just as easily as you could climb on the inside of it.
Haeny:
Oh, that's cool.
Nathan:
And so I would always climb to the very top on the outside and stand on top of this castle that... It must've been like-
Haeny:
And then you were the king of the world.
Nathan:
Yeah, you felt like it. It must've been like, 50 feet in the air, though. It was not safe at all.
Haeny:
Oh, that's really cool.
Nathan:
It was awesome and I loved doing it. And I think now, but if I saw my kids do that, I would absolutely freak out, but I definitely did that all the time. How about you? Any cool memories of play in school?
Haeny:
I mean, obviously I only think about recess, too. There was the popular girl, Samantha Fox. Shout out to Samantha Fox, I don't know where you are.
Nathan:
Samantha, if you're listening.
Haeny:
But she would always dictate what we played. And somehow we always played dogs in a pound. So every recess we would have to be dogs in a pound and just run around the black top being dogs. And I distinctly remember there were lots of times where I just chose not to participate because I was like, "I don't want to be a dog in a pound anymore." And so I would go on the equipment or I would play hopscotch, because that was kind of fun, or I would play some jump roping game sort of thing.
Nathan:
The playground was a magical place, for sure.
Haeny:
Definitely.
Nathan:
So we're going to go to our conversation with Carmen now, but during that we're also going to try to pull in some of those conversations that we had with kids in Carmen's classrooms. When we do that, you're going to hear a little something that sounds like this.
Speaker 4:
Eeny, meeny, miny, moe. Catch a tiger by the toe. If he hollers, let him go. Eeny, meeny, miny, moe. Let's try again.
Nathan:
And then we'll come back and we'll continue the conversation after that. Great, so now let's go talk to Carmen.
Haeny:
All right. Get excited, people, because today we have Carmen Llerena with us who is a first grade teacher at Central Park East and also a doctoral candidate but most importantly, a fellow pop culture aficionado and a very big Marvel enthusiast.
Carmen:
I am. I'm so happy to be here.
Haeny:
Thanks for being here. Carmen, tell us your favorite Marvel characters.
Carmen:
Definitely Storm and Black Panther.
Nathan:
That's a fantastic combination.
Haeny:
Yes, legitimate, legitimate.
Nathan:
Very exciting, yeah.
Carmen:
Thank you for validating me. I mean, hey, I've arrived. I've arrived.
Haeny:
She has officially arrived.
Nathan:
She's here. We're super excited to have you here today to talk about children's pretend play and particularly to find out about your own experiences as an educator and a teacher with some young people. Before we dive into all of that, though, we always like to play a little game here to get ourselves warmed up for these conversations. And so we have a version of a game, something like this or that. So we're going to give you a couple scenarios and you're going to choose which of the two that you would go with.
Carmen:
All right.
Nathan:
All right? Okay. So we'll start here, maybe a little easy. You are invited to a friend's house to play either with Barbie's Dream House or to build the Millennium Falcon out of Legos. Which would you prefer?
Carmen:
Hello, Millennium Falcon.
Haeny:
I mean, okay. I've known Carmen for a really long time. I knew that was a very basic and easy question. Why would you pick the Millennium Falcon over Barbie's Dream House?
Carmen:
It's cool. I mean, I don't want to diss Barbie, but what did she do?
Haeny:
And don't diss Barbie in this moment, Carmen.
Nathan:
What did she do.
Carmen:
No, I mean like, did she go up in space? Did she fly?
Haeny:
Astronaut Barbie did. I mean, hello, America Ferrera, aka Barbie, she did all kinds of things.
Carmen:
Hey, that's my girl. I am not here to throw shade at America Ferrera, but Lego Star Wars every time.
Haeny:
Yes, I know.
Nathan:
It's hard to say no to that.
Haeny:
I know. And I've actually watched Carmen in her classroom build wonderful things with her kids and Legos. She is just as engaged as they are.
Carmen:
Indeed.
Nathan:
Shh, I'm busy.
Haeny:
Excuse me, where's the teacher?
Carmen:
No, I'm modeling.
Haeny:
You're modeling. Exactly.
Nathan:
Yes, absolutely. Okay, we're going to go in a slightly different direction. A kid farts loudly during a circle time.
Haeny:
Has that happened to you?
Nathan:
Has that ever happened?
Carmen:
All the time, yeah.
Nathan:
Do you give the kid a high five or do you ignore it?
Carmen:
In between, right? Because there's always somebody who's like, "Hey, so-and-so farted." I'm like, "Yeah, we all fart. You fart. They fart. She farts. I fart. We all fart."
Nathan:
So your answer is to give everybody a high five.
Carmen:
Yeah.
Haeny:
Why not just turn it into a contest? Does everyone fart? Prove it?
Nathan:
Prove it. Show me. Who can fart the loudest? That's a fantastic answer. All right, so we know that you have some really excellent play stations around your classroom. Places where kids can go and work and play. Which play station do you choose when it's play time? Do you go to the puzzle station? The blocks? Dress up? Drawing? Other ones?
Haeny:
Doll house?
Nathan:
Doll house?
Carmen:
That's my least favorite.
Haeny:
Well, not doll house, because we already know she's not going to go to Barbie's Dream House.
Nathan:
We know she doesn't go there. The Lego station. We've already established this.
Carmen:
My all-time favorite is writing, just because the characters and the conversations that come out of there. That's really a time where I get to know the skinny of what's going on, so that's definitely my favorite.
Nathan:
Well, that's actually a good segue into your experiences as a classroom teacher, as a first grade classroom teacher. One of the questions we wanted to ask you about was what's popping for these kids? What's in? So when you're looking around the different stations that kids are working on, you said oftentimes they're telling stories and they're talking about these kind of really interesting things. What stuff are they into right now? What stuff is part of the conversation?
Carmen:
Yeah. Well, the Rainbow Friends, they're still pretty big.
Haeny:
Tell us what Rainbow Friends are, for those in the audience that may not know.
Carmen:
Yeah. Well, I just learned about Rainbow Friends not too long ago.
Haeny:
Same.
Carmen:
And apparently, at first I thought it was a TV show, like a series or something, but it's an app that they play and each character has a different color. So it's like the Blue Monster or the Red Monster or the White Monster. And I just saw them drawing these. Like there was this fun one, the blue one's my favorite, and it has one eye and an X on the other eye. And I don't know, I just thought it was really cool. And at first I didn't realize what it was and then I asked. I'm like, "Oh, who's that? Oh, Blue Monster. Oh, Blue Monster. Okay, you made a Blue Monster." And then they started telling me the story. And I just love how there are some kids, they're allowed to play with apps on their phones, and then there are some kids that don't have access to it, but I just love the movement where in three days everybody knows about it and understands what it is and is part of this community.
Nathan:
When we were there, I sat down next to the drawing group and I said, "What are you guys drawing?" They're like, "Rainbow Friends!" I was like, "Oh," and similar reaction. I thought, oh, these are characters they've come up with, and they started telling me about. But then as they started talking, it got weirder and weirder and they were like, "Oh, yeah. The purple one sometimes eats boys." And you're like, "Oh, that's funny." They're like, "No, it hides in the vents and it comes by and grabs you and eats you." Wait, this is a little intense. And it turns out there's this, yeah, there's a whole story involved that they all were familiar with, at least to some varying degrees.
What do Rainbow Friends do?
Speaker 6:
Oh, he eats boys. What?
Carmen:
He eats boys?
Speaker 6:
Yeah, he eats everybody.
Carmen:
He eats everybody? Why does he do that?
Speaker 6:
Yeah, tonight.
Carmen:
I don't want to be eaten.
Speaker 6:
You better stay up all night.
Nathan:
If I go to sleep, is that where...
Haeny:
Yeah, well, to be honest, Nathan came back and was like, "Oh my God, these kids were making up these amazing stories about Rainbow Friends and the hidden sewers and they grabbed your feet." And I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's really cool." And then after a while I think I texted Carmen. I was like, "Do you know about Rainbow Friends?" And she's like, "It's an app." And then I had to tell Nathan. I was like, "It's an app."
Nathan:
I went and watched some videos of it to see what it was, and I was like, "This is scary stuff."
Carmen:
Yeah, I know. It's a little much, but they love it.
Haeny:
I think it's so interesting that it's a parallel to things that happen in popular culture, that part of what gives anything momentum is the movement and the circulation. And it has to be circulated by people, and then people take it up, and everybody has different levels, range of what they know about it, and then they become in and out depending on how much they know. You don't know that much Taylor Swift knowledge, Nathan, so you're like sometimes in the outgroup.
Nathan:
Yeah, feel a little sad about it.
Haeny:
It's okay, you could start listening to them.
Nathan:
I'm like, why is everybody wearing varsity jackets around me?
Haeny:
They must be doing a thing they made up.
Nathan:
They made this up.
Carmen:
Well sometimes like our block area, let's say, it becomes a stage, right? You would think that that happens in pretend, but pretend it's more like, the imagination I feel doesn't flow as much as it does as... You know, because you have babies, so we'll play with the babies or we'll go to the doctor or to the vet.
Nathan:
Oh, interesting. Yeah.
Haeny:
Why do you like to go to the pretend area?
Speaker 7:
Because it's fun because it's like a bunch of... It's baby dolls. I really love baby dolls and I have a bunch at home.
Haeny:
What do you like to do with them?
Speaker 7:
I just feed them food. They do potty training.
Haeny:
Yeah. So do you potty-train them?
Speaker 7:
Yeah. And sometimes they have to drink the medicine because she always has to drink it.
Carmen:
But whereas in the block center, you never know what you're going to come into. And it also depends the mix of kids. I have a kid that is a huge builder and he loves building vehicles and that's how the pirates started, right? Because this kid built a ship and then the other two that were with him were like, "What's so cool about ships? But oh, wait a minute, we are pirates on this ship," and it takes a turn and-
Haeny:
And they made delightful costumes and props.
Nathan:
Yes, they did. Yeah. All out of paper. Yep. Yep.
I heard there was a pirate show going on over here.
Speaker 8:
Oh yeah.
Nathan:
Is that true?
Speaker 8:
Yeah.
Nathan:
Do you guys have a name for your pirate team?
Speaker 8:
Pirates of the Sea.
Nathan:
Pirates of the Sea.
Speaker 8:
We're the deadliest pirates. No one can defeat the pirates.
Nathan:
No one?
Speaker 8:
Yeah, absolutely no one. This says keep out.
Nathan:
Where did you learn about all your knowledge about pirates?
Speaker 8:
We just made the show up.
Nathan:
That's a cool show.
Speaker 8:
We should make more ships so the pirates can get more treasure.
Nathan:
That's right. More ships, more treasure.
Carmen:
Signage is really big in the block area. And then yesterday, it was like this cool lounge. These two kids built this sofa and they were on the sofa and they each had a block in their hands and those were their controls, so they were playing video games.
Nathan:
Oh, I thought they were cocktails. Sit on the couch with a cocktail.
Haeny:
This is my mojito.
Nathan:
Oh, you got a little Manhattan there. Nice.
Carmen:
You know, chocolate milk, maybe, I don't know. But no, so I asked them, I'm like, "What are y'all playing?" And thinking that they would be playing the same game, right? Because they were kind of talking to each other, but come to find out one was playing Call of Duty and the other one was playing Fortnite. Now I know these two, I know families, and there's no way that-
Nathan:
There's no way they're playing...
Carmen:
That they're ever playing that at home, but it was just cool that that's how they were just chilling.
Haeny:
It's like appropriating, yeah. It's appropriating how to be a big kid.
Carmen:
Absolutely.
Nathan:
Oh, totally. I think the Rainbow Friends thing is probably a little bit of that, too, where some of them might be playing it, but I suspect most of them aren't and it's more about, like you said earlier, it's like it's a conversation now and it takes its own life in the classroom. Yeah, I love that.
Haeny:
Yeah, that's pretty cool. Okay, so right now what's trending in your classroom is Rainbow Friends and pirates and lounges and Fortnite and Call of Duty. Sounds like a classroom nobody is going to be concerned about.
Nathan:
I'm into it.
Carmen:
I know, but then it's random, too. Because then today in writing, what was going on, too, is they were making pizzas and french fries. There was this restaurant theme going on in the writing center, which was a little bizarre. So you just never know what you're going to...
Haeny:
Yeah. This is kind of a related question that I'm sure you get a lot, because you do have a lot of playtime and children doing a lot of real intellectual, serious, joyful work during that time. And so I know you're going to hate this question as soon as I ask it, but do you see kids taking up what might be called school topics or school skills in their play or do you see these things being separate? But what do you say to people who might be like, I don't know, "Play is just play and work is work and skills are skills and whatever they do in play is unrelated to that."
Carmen:
First of all, I work in a progressive school that really values children learning through exploration and play, so that's easy. Going in the door, I don't need to fight for that time. That time is expected. But I think just from a social-emotional perspective, there are so many things that we negotiate in work time. Conflict resolution, sharing.
Speaker 9:
Wait, can I hide now? Can I hide? Can I hide? Can I hide? Can I hide?
Speaker 10:
No.
Speaker 9:
Can I hide? Can I? I never hide.
Speaker 10:
No, I didn't hide yet, so let me hide.
Carmen:
Or children that wouldn't necessarily gravitate to each other now are connected somehow.
Nathan:
I want to bring attention to something you did without even batting an eye, and that is you referred to it as work time. So you were talking about the kids at the various kinds of what we might think of as play centers and you call it in your classroom work time, and I love that. Can you say a bit about where that came from, why you do that?
Carmen:
Yeah. I'm actually really conflicted by it, and I call it work time because that's just the term that we use in our school building, and this is where I'm conflicted. So the rationale is that play is so important that it's child's work. Child's work is play. And it's that important that we need to call it work time. On the flip side, if it's that important, why can't play be play?
Nathan:
Just call it play, yeah.
Carmen:
So why can't they just play? Why do I have to call it something else? But it's not something that I'm too concerned about as long as I have the time allotted.
Haeny:
Yeah. I mean, I totally get that tension, though. Especially even as an administrator, even if you think about the public conversation around play and what that actually means, that there is such a tension between trying to see value in the way that children play, but the only way that we're able to see value in that play is if it leads to some kind of productive work sort of outcome. And so you have this thing where you want to communicate to the larger public that play in and for itself is important, but then people don't get it if it's not attached to some kind of...
Nathan:
Yeah, right. So what you're getting at too is, who's it for that we're calling it that, right? So communicating to, like you just said, hey parents, that this is valuable, is one way you might do that is by calling it work. But I'm curious now that we're talking about it in that way, what do the kids make of that? Is it something that the first time they hear it they're like, "Wait, what?" Or is it something that they don't even... They just go with the flow because that's what everyone else has called it and so they just kind of go with it?
Carmen:
Yeah. By the time they get to me, they've already been to pre-K and it's already been called work time, so it's like the best part of the day, right? Work time, can't wait to get to work time.
Haeny:
I remember one of the kids was saying how she was like, "Oh my god, when I was in pre-K was such a long time ago." Yeah, that was like two months ago, okay.
Nathan:
I mean, it's a large proportion of her life.
Haeny:
Yes. You know what a long time ago was? When I was in pre-K.
Nathan:
Oh boy, that was a long time ago. In my kid's school, they always called it free choice time, which I think is another interesting move that's being made there. It's about the difference between when you get to choose versus when the teacher gets to choose. The words that we use for these things, I think it does matter.
Haeny:
It does matter, because it shifts people's frame or understanding or how they enter into a space when you call it something else. I think about that even with adults, right?
Nathan:
Oh, totally.
Haeny:
If you call some place like a library, I'm not going to it, but if you call it a bar, then maybe I'll go to it.
Nathan:
Slam on libraries.
Carmen:
Well, I've got to tell you, I feel like I go rogue sometimes because I call it playing. We call it work time, but where are you playing today? Where do you want to play?
Nathan:
Yeah, of course.
Carmen:
Not exactly what we should be calling it. Technically we should be saying, "Where are you working today," but that's where I...
Nathan:
I don't know, I think the slippage is better. I think the slippage is better. That way you're communicating that they could be in some ways one and the same. It's not always work, it's also play, and play is valuable. So I don't know, I think the slippage is great.
When we were watching and talking to the kids, I think there were times where it does take you back a little bit to which station did you like to go to or what kinds of things were you into? One of the kids was talking about a story he was making around Sonic the Hedgehog and I of course immediately went back to Sonic and Mario and those were the things I was really thinking about and playing whenever I was a kid.
Haeny:
You have a character right now in Roblox. What's the character's name?
Speaker 11:
Sonic.
Haeny:
Sonic? Wait, you like Sonic, too?
Speaker 11:
Mm-hmm.
Haeny:
Everybody likes Sonic.
Nathan:
Are there things that you're seeing your kids doing that are taking you back? What have you been kind of reminiscing about?
Carmen:
Oh my gosh. A couple of weeks ago, I had these two kids that arranged everything in the pretend area like a car and they were going on this long expedition to Florida, and they were mom and dad and they were packing the kids. And I was eavesdropping and then I actually joined in because I thought it was really funny about, oh and yes "and honey, you have to drive. I'll talk to you and keep you awake." And then I was like, "So why is he driving?" And she said, "Well, because he's the dad." I'm like, "Oh, but I'm a mom and I drive, too." And she's like, "Yeah, but I'm tired so I'm going to let him drive." But that it just took me back to my cousin and I rearranging the furniture when we were little to make a car.
Haeny:
What did they make it out of?
Carmen:
So they use the shelves, the bookshelves were the back seat and they put the babies in there and then in front of the shelves they put two milk crates and those were the front seats.
Nathan:
Oh, that they sat on then, yeah. I like that.
Haeny:
That's pretty great. So I feel like we've been talking, this season is basically about playing roles and how important it is from childhood to adulthood for people to take up different roles, to see possibilities in the things that they play around. And it's so easy to see that with kids because they do that so seamlessly and it becomes harder and harder as an adult because I don't know, social norms are things that just make us feel less and less able to take up these notions of play. And so we were thinking how important it is to feature and talk about children as they pretend to play and as they take up all of these identities, as they take up all of these roles.
Okay, so you were in pretend to play with Malia, right?
Speaker 12:
Mm-hmm.
Haeny:
What were you guys doing in there?
Speaker 12:
We was playing doctors.
Haeny:
You were playing doctors? Who was injured?
Speaker 12:
Me.
Haeny:
You were injured? What happened?
Speaker 12:
Everything.
Haeny:
Everything? Tell me about it.
Speaker 12:
I got a needle.
Haeny:
You got a needle? What else happened? Oh god, she put the diaper on your hand?
Speaker 12:
No, I did, but yes she did.
Haeny:
And she said that you had to put a dirty diaper on your hand for five minutes?
Speaker 12:
No, 500. No, 100 minute.
Haeny:
100 minutes. Did it help?
Speaker 12:
Yeah, it did help.
Haeny:
It did?
So I feel like we need to collect some stories of kids at play. And so have you seen an example of just kids taking up a different identity, role that really surprised you or took you aback because you didn't really necessarily see them as that person or didn't even know that that was an interest of theirs or whatnot?
Carmen:
Yeah. It started to come up right before you and Nathan came to visit us. I had a little boy that he was one of the pirates and he was very focused on the build. And then once two other friends came over and wanted to add characters and costumes and signage, then it was like this world of possibilities just opened for him. And he goes through phases. He was really into blocks for a couple of weeks and now he's transitioned to Lego and he's been there for a little bit.
And they had this huge thing going, it covered the whole table and I was like, "Well, what's going on?" At first they started to say that it was a house, but as they kept talking about it, they were basically making a set and each room was something else and they had characters in different sets. And he says to me, he's like, "I want to make a movie." I'm like, "You want to make a movie?" I'm like, "Well, why didn't you say so?" So in the next few weeks, we're going to... Because I've done that before with kids, where we've made movies with what they're doing.
Haeny:
You are all going to make a movie soon?
Carmen:
So yes. Yeah. So we'll see what comes up.
Haeny:
Okay, so tell me, so in the classroom there's work time and you get to pick what places you want to do?
Speaker 13:
I didn't get to do my movie and I dropped my scrunchie.
Haeny:
What movie were you going to do?
Speaker 13:
Zootopia. What did you say in the classroom earlier, yesterday?
Carmen:
Leo?
Speaker 13:
Yeah, Leo.
Haeny:
Leo? What's Leo?
Speaker 13:
It's like a movie and he's like a lizard and he...
Haeny:
And he just freezes?
Speaker 13:
Yeah. He'd like, freeze, because someone scares.
Speaker 14:
My scrunchie's stuck.
Speaker 13:
Don't worry.
Haeny:
Oh, wow. That's pretty cool.
Speaker 14:
My scrunchie got stuck.
Haeny:
I mean, that goes back to what you were saying earlier about the importance of play to children's wellbeing and social-emotional learning and all of that, because I think about how many times I approach a task very literally and I think, "Okay, this is what I'm supposed to do. I have directives on what I'm supposed to do here." So I do that because I'm supposed to accomplish that and then I see someone doing something different and it kind of gives me a different set of possibilities that I didn't think about before.
Nathan:
Yeah. "That's an option. I can do that?" Yeah, totally.
Haeny:
Oh my gosh, I can make a movie? I mean, I know exactly what kid you're talking about and I just think, yeah, for him, there was not a possibility that that set of blocks or that set of Legos could actually be made into a story and a narrative and you could direct a movie and do all of this stuff. And that possibility was presented because another set of kids were like, "No, I think we're just going to make some beards and be pirates here and make up scenarios, and that's what's going to happen here."
Speaker 15:
Eyebrow.
Nathan:
You lost an eyebrow. Somebody's mustache and nose and mouth.
Speaker 15:
It's [inaudible 00:32:29]. It's the pirate who used to be on our team, but he died.
Nathan:
Oh no. What happened to him?
Speaker 15:
One day he was about to steal treasure when he was trapped.
Nathan:
Oh, no.
Speaker 15:
And the trap was poisonous with [inaudible 00:32:43].
Nathan:
Oof. Well, that is one of the dangers of being a pirate. Where'd you learn about all your knowledge about pirates? Where'd you learn about pirates?
Speaker 15:
We just made the show up.
Nathan:
That's a cool show.
That's great. I mean, it was introduced to me as the pirate show. It was come to the block station because we're putting on a pirate show. Which that in and of itself was like, "Oh wait, what? You're doing what where?" That combination was really surprising. And yeah, the costumes were amazing. To describe for our audio listeners here, they were drawing beards and hats and mustaches onto paper, which they would then cut out, put tape on, and then stick onto their faces.
Haeny:
Oh my God, that's great. That is the topic that I hope will never die in that classroom. But related to that, is there a trend or something? You have to have an answer to this. Is there something that you wish would die?
Carmen:
I have had a few fads that I was over with. A couple years ago, it was like the kids saying "sus." And the reason why it's fresh in my mind is because one of my kids today, he was talking about Among Us. And I'm like, "Among Us?" I'm like, "you're kind of late to the party, buddy." But he was like, that was all he was drawing today.
Haeny:
My god, I haven't heard that in so long.
Carmen:
Yeah, so that was one that got me a little. The other... Oh no, you know what it is? They don't watch shows anymore. Everything is fast. Everything's a TikTok or a quick video, a YouTube video. So it's kind of hard for me to relate, especially someone who likes watching as much TV as I do.
Last year, there was this kid that went viral with the one, two, buckle my shoe three, four... The Nike Kicks, do you know what I'm talking about?
Nathan:
Oh yeah, yeah.
Haeny:
No.
Carmen:
No?
Nathan:
I've heard my kids say this to me before, yeah.
Carmen:
Okay. It was like one, two, buckle my shoe, three, four. I don't know, it's about this kid being excited about getting Nike Kicks, I can't remember how it goes. But they would sing it nonstop every day and it was finally like, "All right, guys. We got to stop. That's it. No more Nike Kicks."
Nathan:
Let's go back to Baby Shark.
Haeny:
Remember preschool a long, long time ago?
Nathan:
Years ago, back when Among Us was popular. 100 years ago.
Haeny:
Oh my God, that's so great. I mean, the reason why I asked that was because I think the thing about children's play is there's this tendency to romanticize it or make it seem like it's all peaches and rainbows and kids, all they should do is play because they get maximum benefit out of it. But there's also tensions. They may say things during their play that's kind of problematic or that makes us kind of pause a little bit. Or they might just do things during play or play with things that we don't necessarily like.
Like what if every kid in your classroom was like, "Barbie Dream House"? Then it'd be over for you, Carmen. So there's all these different nuances and tensions and complexities and then it's always an interaction with other people. It's not just the kids playing, but it's also the adults that are in there, that whether or not you choose to step into that play, you're already going to be a part of it, whether it's ideologically or circulating or whether it's surveying it or whatever it can be.
Carmen:
And I hate being the surveillor, right? I hate getting too involved. Like today, I had two kids in pretend. So there's dog food, right? Don't ask me why, but we had this play set and it has dog food.
Nathan:
Really wanted to ask you why.
Carmen:
Because you know, we have a vet play set and it has the dog dish and the dog food. So she comes over with this plastic thing that arguably you could say were a bunch of chocolate chips, but it's really dog food. So she's like, "This is dog food, isn't it?" I'm like, "Well, yeah, but it could be whatever you want it to be." And then the other one's like, "I told you." But then there's conflict because in doll house, somebody wanted to use something as something else and the other kid was like, "But it doesn't look right." So when things like that happen, I just kind of say, I'm like, "Well, you kind of have to figure it out on your own."
Nathan:
Figure it out, yeah.
Haeny:
Yeah. Which is an amazing skill to have. We are always negotiating and trying to navigate these relationships, even now.
Speaker 16:
Maylin, stop. Go in your work area.
Speaker 17:
Let me do an eeny, meeny, miny, moe. Eeny, meeny, miny, moe. Catch a tiger by his toe. If you want to see his toe, eeny, meeny, miny, moat.
Speaker 16:
No, she's not in there.
Nathan:
That came up, it did come up in the pirates whenever I was there that... The second time I was there, they came back to play and one of the builders was building something a little different and the other one was very upset by it and was like, "They're not building the pirate ship." And they're like, "Well, the pirate ship fell apart, so I'm building something different." He's like, "But it's not the pirate ship," and the anxiety that you can see.
And anyway, I have two kids and this kind of thing happened all the time. You can see that anxiety building and you can also see them trying really hard to figure out how to release the steam valve so that they don't explode. But helping them manage those little moments I think is a really important part of what play affords.
Haeny:
Yeah. Being an adult in that world is really hard, too, because it's like a tricky balance between when do you intervene, when do they really want us to be the adult that helps them through this process, and then when is it okay if we just step back and trust that kids can handle it? And those are really hard, difficult questions to contend with.
Nathan:
Yeah.
Carmen:
Yeah. My go-to is to step back and then if it gets a little ugly, then I'll try to mediate and then I'll go to my mom mode where it's like, "Okay, nobody gets it." But that's like last resort.
Nathan:
Blocks are done. No more blocks.
Haeny:
DEFCON 3.
Nathan:
There'll be no more pirates in this classroom.
Haeny:
DEFCON 3 is mom mode. Well, thanks Carmen for sharing your insight into play and pretend and all the nuances and complexities of what it means to exist in a child's world. So thank you for doing this with us.
Carmen:
Oh, of course. We loved having you. And you know, "When are that boy and girl coming back?" I hear a lot, so you're always welcome.
Haeny:
Well, at least they called us boy and girl, okay? Not, "When is grandma and grandpa coming back?"
Nathan:
Yeah, that guy who couldn't bend down very long before he made these creaky sounds to get back up. When's he coming back?
Haeny:
Oh my gosh.
Nathan:
They were a delight. And I will say that when we came to your classroom, I walked in, Haeny had been there a day before, but I walked in and I was immediately mobbed and hugged by about 10 strange children and it was absolutely great.
Carmen:
Yeah, we're a loving community.
Haeny:
Very much so. Okay.
Nathan:
Before we let you go, there's one more important question that we have for you and that's what's popping? We like to ask our guests, what are you into? What piece of media are you consuming? What games are you playing? What books are you reading? What shows are you binging? What's popping for you?
Carmen:
Oh my goodness. So my husband is a huge fan of 90 Day Fiancé.
Haeny:
So is Ioana Literat, Trashies. Listen on TikTok.
Carmen:
And I got to tell you, that I do enjoy... It is a guilty pleasure for me, right? But sometimes it just gives me too much anxiety so I can't watch it. So I need a break, but now I'm back in.
Nathan:
You're back in.
Carmen:
Yeah. So I've just gotten back in.
Haeny:
So the premise of 90 Day Fiancé is you have a fiancé for 90 days and then you get married, or what is it? Or you get to know each other for 90 days?
Carmen:
No, they've already... They have a relationship, they've been together for so many years, but one is an American citizen, the other is a foreigner, so they need to get a K-1 Visa, yeah.
Nathan:
If you'd like to learn more, I would encourage you to listen to episode two, season two of a podcast called Pop and Play, where our guest talks about 90 Day Fiancé.
Haeny:
Yes, yes. There you go.
Nathan:
You'd forgotten it, though, apparently.
Haeny:
No, I did not forget it. Come on.
Nathan:
I've never seen it. But yes, hearing Ioana, Professor Literat talk about the show, it really does make me curious. It sounds absolutely insane.
Carmen:
And I got to tell you, I would love to sit down and watch it with her.
Haeny:
Well, there you go. Invitation is put out into the world.
Nathan:
That's great.
Haeny:
Okay. Thank you so much, Carmen. We really enjoyed talking with you today.
Carmen:
Oh, of course. This was fun. Thank you.
Haeny:
Pop and Play is produced by Haeny Yoon, Nathan Holbert, Lalitha Vasudevan, Billy Collins, and Joe Riina-Ferrie at Teachers College, Columbia University with the Digital Futures Institute. Audio recording for this episode by Jen Lee and Moira McCavana. This episode was edited by Billy Collins and Abu Abdelbagi.
Nathan:
For a transcript and to learn more, visit tc.edu/popandplay. Our music is selections from Leaf Eaters by Podington Bear used here under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial license. Blake Danzig provided our social media and outreach support. Follow @PopandPlayPod on Instagram and TikTok for more of what's poppin', like The Trashies with Ioana Literat. Thank you to Meier Clark and Abu Abdelbagi for support with our website and additional materials. And thanks to you for listening.