Hard Money, Hard Problems - Ep 040

In Episode 40 of Better By Bitcoin, hosts JD, Bondor, Anton, and Zack explore the tumultuous world of law, economics, and hyperinflation. They scrutinize the overvaluation of professions like law and accounting in a Fiat system, the impact of AI and technology on current job markets, and the societal shifts expected in a Bitcoin-based economy. An enlightening discussion ensues on the nature of money, necessity-driven value creation, and the resilience required to adapt and thrive in these evolving economic landscapes.

 

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Hosts:

JD - @CypherpunkCine on 𝕏
Bondor - @gildedpleb on 𝕏
Anton Seim - @antonseim on 𝕏
Zack - @idiotfortruth on 𝕏

 

 

Sponsors:

Unknown Certainty - The Bitcoin Ad Company
IndeeHub - Reshape the Business of Storytelling - @indeehub on 𝕏

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Hey friend, listen. I know the world is scary right now. Corruption, war, inflation, demographics, degeneracy, disease, unrest, hatred and despair. We didn't come here to tell you how it is, but that it's going to get way better. Better By Bitcoin.

Episode 40. Boys and girls, welcome to Better By Bitcoin, Bitcoin wisdom in a Fiat world. With all of our guests here, we have Gilded Plea, we have Indiehub, and we have the one and only Anton Seim. I am Sackpunk Cinema, and we are ready to talk about some important stuff. Hard money, hard problems. I am very curious to just kind of kick this off with a question to get yalls take on kind of what we're going to see as we get into a hard money world, like what are the big difficult things we're going to face right out the gate. And so I want to start with why do so many millionaires come from fields like law and accounting? Are they truly adding value or are they just gaming a broken Fiat system and is about to get real bad? Curious your thoughts?

Do any of you guys have a lawyer like a on retainer?

Not retainer, but to work with a lot of lawyers for different for various things, various capacities and accountants?

No.

Yeah, I do not have a lawyer or accountant on retainer.

I wish I had one that can help me fix this camera issue.

Oh man, every time. I think you should just leave that exact- It's kind of like the grumpy cat meme.

Grumpy cat was definitely my spirit animal for a long time.

God damn it all the time. Alright, I think that they provide outside They're worth more than they should be in a Fiat world because they generally attack and solve Fiat problems. There's almost nothing more Fiat than a lawyer by definition. Lawyers sit around and decree things. They think that because something is written and that it is said that it is so and that it is true, but they're generally speaking missing the other half of the equation, which is meet space. You got to combine the informational realm and the physical realm. And lawyers reside primarily in the informational realm. They like to sit around and argue about ideas and write words on paper, which is all well and good until shit hits the fan and fists start, you know, people start throwing fists.

So.

Long story short, they provide, they make more money than they should because we We live in this Fiat hellscape. But that's not to say that they wouldn't, that there isn't value.

In a.

Potential hard money world.

I have a friend who he owns a bank. We've all talked about it before. Great, great guy.

Jay Powell. Jay Powell.

Jay Powell.

Maybe one day. But yeah, he's the guy that I grew up with. His dream was to own a bank and he owns a bank now. He created his own bank and he's doing very, very well. And one time he drew this picture for me and it was a pyramid. And I'll just cut to the end of the story. It was the pyramid that's on the dollar bill with the little seeing eye at the top. That's not what he was drawing, but he was saying at the very, at the very bottom of the pyramid, like the bottom 2/3 are people who use their bodies to make money. The, the top kind of third portion he drew a line and he said, these are people that use their minds to make money. And he said, essentially lawyers. And then he drew a tiny little top to the pyramid and he said, these are people who use money to make money. Those are the people at the top of the pyramid.

What he didn't tell you was that the top of the pyramid were all thieves and they're literally stealing everybody else's money because they have a monopoly on printing money. So, you know, fuck.

It just sounds like it was thieves, lawyers and only fans. That's all I saw on this pyramid description that you just.

Well, the only fans that works. So the bottom pyramid is the poor souls who are making $500 a year or whatever and now they're permanently on the internet. And then, but I mean, only fans kind of, it is the Pareto principle, right? 20% of those people make 80% of the money. Pretty standard stuff though. I think that I do think that accountants in particular, I'll put it this way, my experience with accountants and lawyers is that I really only need to hire them because some other accountant or lawyer drew up some rule that was incredibly opaque or complicated that another one who speaks their language needed to decode for me or encode for me. In a business plan or whatever. So the whole thing is just super circular and ridiculous and hyper inefficient and net negative, frankly.

Now we have things like these LLMs where you can take a contract that before a lawyer essentially wrote in code, it was like, let's say that you knew C++ or something, I know nothing about coding. Bondor, obviously you do. They were essentially writing in a coding language. And so in order to decode it, you need another lawyer to decode the code. Now you have these LLMs, you can literally take a contract and just put it in and say, explain to me like I am literally, what does this mean?

And I will tell you.

So I don't know what that means for lawyers now.

It's a term like this. It's game over in a lot of ways for them.

But the thing that's so frustrating about lawyers is you go and you hire one and you say, Hey, I'd like you to do this thing for me. And they're like, okay, well, yeah, I'll do this and I'll write this thing. But the reality is that none of these words matter and if somebody wants to sue you, they'll get away with it. And honestly, so whatever. And it's like, what the fuck is the point of even, why are we even, if they want to do it, they're going to do it anyway. So again, we have this issue of the informational realm and it's divorced from the physical realm. And what the lawyers are doing is it's only relevant if the parties involved decide to play by those rules anyway. So you see this in international commerce, right? Like, well, you have a group of people over here who have a completely different set of rules than this group of people who have this set of rules. And so now all of a sudden, the entrepreneurial folks who are actually getting shit done, who are moving things around in meatspace, the Elon Musks of the world, are not, they don't give a fuck about the legal rules. They give a fuck about the physical rules. And then they hire lawyers to figure it out after the fact. So the thing that matters in the first place is just doing shit. The legal ring fences are there to put you at a disadvantage to somebody.

Else who's already cornered some market. It's ludicrous. I think that's the biggest thing. One of the first courses that I really loved in college was constitutional law. And gosh darn it, I'll make my point after I fix my camera. But the moral of the story is, dude, it's so frustrating. Cannon, if you're watching, Your EOS webcam app is terrible. It's absolute garbage. There's like literally I've actually, I probably have better luck just like trying to stream through a trash can. This is rough.

Do you have, do you have an ATEM or anything?

No, I probably just need to use my iPhone, which is also hilarious. But yeah.

Can I, let me, let me say something real quick as you're fixing your camera. My dad, I've talked to him many times because I've had a lot of friends go through divorces. So I'll be telling my dad about the divorce. And he always says in divorce, the only people who win are the lawyers.

Yep.

Yeah.

It's like everybody thinks that they can take the other person for money. But no matter if you win or you lose, that lawyer is getting paid.

Yep.

Yep, it's absurd. And I hope that AI just absolutely decimates the legal industry. I hope these people, for the most part, get absolutely annihilated. And the only ones that are left are the ones who are actually providing some kind of interesting value. But I do think that this kind of goes, everything we talk about goes back to sovereign individual thesis basically. And I think we're going to get to this point where again, Fiat, what does Fiat mean? Fiat means by decree. It means somebody is just arbitrarily declaring the rules or the truth and they're saying that it is what it is because I say that it is, which is not the case here in this realm and in this reality. The rules are the rules. This is not Vietnam. There are rules. The rules are fair. They're very fair. Gravity is fair. Physics are fair. But people don't want to accept that. So they come up with all these ridiculous rules to give themselves an advantage or make them feel better about their childhood or whatever. But I think that we're getting back to a point because of Bitcoin, where the thing that mattered, the information that matters is the exchange of money, which was generally a physical exchange. Now that is of the realm of information and that exchange of energy can take place in an uncensored way. I think that that is going to collapse the need for the opaque legal nonsense down to its, to a more, let's say, localized organization or value prop where maybe you're in a city state or a municipality where you have a shared culture and you need somebody to adjudicate a disagreement given that everybody has a similar value system. But that's just a less sovereign, less super sovereign and more localized method of dispute resolution. Because if you have societies who don't agree and they don't share the same values, a judge is useless. It doesn't matter. You're going to fight it out. You're going to resolve that dispute in the physical realm. I think that the answer is that all of that value is hyperinflated, just like the currency that they print, just like anything is going to be hyperinflated in an informational world where we put too much value on information and not enough value on the physical realm.

I think it actually goes into, I'll just ask us as the next one because I kind of was going to touch on this, but in a Bitcoin economy, how would unemployment spikes force people to rediscover real value creation?

It's because they have to eat. There's no necessity. What's the. There's a just butchering it all. Necessity is the mother of invention. That's it, right? That's the quote. Yeah. So, hey, we gotta eat. That's the necessity. Consequently, I'm going to invent a way to make money. You know, maybe that's only fans again, just. Jumping on there. Yeah, at some point they're gonna be like, okay, well actually, you know what? There's this real need here and I can maybe start a business that actually solves this problem, right? And then make money from that.

It depends on why the unemployment's caused. I was having this conversation with somebody recently, like he was super concerned with deflation, like what's gonna happen to people's jobs with deflation? And I'm like, well, we'll just go back to one person per household working and shit being cheap again. Like, who cares? Like, good. The only thing that, the only, the only situation in which deflation sucks is the situation where you're over leveraged and you have a ton of debt. So, you know, mortgages are, the banks are, all of society is. But just on, like, a, on a basic needs level, let's, yeah, let's deflate. Let's get things back to what they should cost. Let's have one person working per household. Let's have it possible that people can have three, four, five kids and. Not be stressed out about it or just be stressed from having four or five kids, not the monetary consequences of it. So if it's like some deflationary shock, in other words, if prices are falling, ironically, a massive unemployment spike because prices are falling will sort of solve itself out because things are cheap again. It's the inflationary collapse that I think that we have to worry about with respect to unemployment. Anton, I think he's muted.

I was muted. We've been experiencing deflation because we hold Bitcoin. We've been seeing the prices of things fall in terms of Bitcoin. Meanwhile, everyone else has been seeing a lot of inflation. And when I say a lot of inflation, I mean like groceries are four times as expensive since pre-COVID than they are now. And a lot of people are really, really suffering. So what we're going to experience as this is all taking place is hyperinflation. Hyperinflation is hard and it's painful for people because there are products that people are going to want. They're going to become completely unobtainable. And that's going to be hard for a lot of people. And At the very same time, it's going to cause a debt Jubilee because so many people have such an insane amount of debt, whether it's their credit card debt or their mortgage, whatever, as the dollar is completely devaluated. Let's say that you have $250,000, $500,000 of credit card debt. That debt's going to be wiped out in hyperinflation. But at the same time, you might really like ribeye steaks. There could be a five-year time period where you cannot afford to buy a ribeye steak. And I don't care if you're a lawyer or an accountant, they're just too much for you. Your salary cannot obtain those things.

So I'm currently there.

I know.

I've been eating chuck roast.

I'm eating bone broth.

I think that's an interesting take, though. And I think that actually goes to the, you know, and I was just reading another, you know, everybody's doom scrolling. Now, but I think it's correct. We're in a really challenging time where unemployment is skyrocketing and we don't know it because the numbers are all fake. The numbers are a lie. Nobody actually knows what's actually going on in the economy. And so the big issue we're seeing right now is we're seeing the bond markets just kind of going cattywampus. Interest rates are skyrocketing on 10 and 30-year bonds. That's not a good thing, by the way, because that basically means They're expecting the interest to inflate a lot. So they need more money in the future to be able to spend money now. Like that's why it's actually like a bad thing, like the inverted yield curve. And then the other big issue that we're having is not only are people not willing to part with their money now because they think it's going to be worth less in the future, they don't have enough money now, enough capital now to even invest in anything.

Now.

And so, yeah, you don't get your rib eye, you're just eating chuck roast or doing bone broth. But that's more of a symptom of a larger problem. And the larger problem is there's, there's AI is deflating the work market so much faster than I think people realize. Like we're seeing even here down here in LA in the last eight months, I was talking about this before the show, we can do things now with AI generated video we couldn't do eight months ago. And I thought it was going to take probably 24 to 36 months to get there. And it took eight. And so we're in a very uncharted time right now where they're about to cut rates on September 17th. And we're going to see a lot of these hard assets, gold and Bitcoin and everything just kind of start skyrocketing. And people who have no real assets are going to be continued down or continuing down this turnpike of just seeing their worth and their value eroded right before their eyes because they don't have any way to start playing the big boy game that's at the top of the pyramid.

They're worth in terms of their paycheck. Their paycheck is going to be devalued.

Yeah.

And anything they have in their bank account, right? Anything you have in the actual money you're making now, like, I have a friend who works.

I mean, yeah, really, it's literally just everything. It's your paycheck, it's your cost of everything, and it's all anything that you have, like anything that you need service, it's all just completely inflating away.

Yeah.

Do you get how many? Okay, good. Anton, Anton, you were talking about credit card debt. I'm curious about this. How many people do you guys know personally who are like five figures or more in like 25% a month interest rate credit card debt?

Outside of myself.

Outside.

I know you're in six figures of credit card debt. I know people with thousands of dollars just in interest payments each month.

I don't. Yeah, I don't know anybody who. How is that possible? Like, if it's at 30, I I got pretty good credit, you know? Like, I'm at, like, 20, 25, 30 a month interest on a credit card. Like, if I. I would be bankrupt. Like, I don't understand how that's even possible for somebody to do that for more than, like, two months.

Yeah, it's so this is something that happens. If you have debt, there are people who want to buy that debt. The people at the top of the pyramid, they just want to get their hands on more and more debt. It gets riskier, but the interest rate goes up. So there's more money to be made, but it's riskier because people can, I don't know what they do, you know, at some point they just lose their mind and commit a murder suicide. But, but, Let's say that you want to go buy a $100,000 car. You go buy the $100,000 car and you're the type of person that a few weeks later you're like, you know what? I don't really like this car. I want $125,000 car, but you're underwater. You owe the $100,000 on the first car plus the interest. So now you trade in that car, you get $90,000 for the car, but you owed $115,000. Now you take that $115,000 and take another $100,000 loan. You can do that dozens of times and you can roll over. But the only people that are willing to give you those loans are the people that are willing to take a bigger and bigger risk and risk in your interest rate goes up and up and up and up. Just because we're financially responsible, you have to put yourself in the shoes of the rest of Americans who are seeing their purchasing power dwindling and they don't accept it. And so they're just taking on more and more and more debt and stress.

So.

Okay.

Do you guys, sorry to hijack this, JD, we can cut it off whenever, but do you guys know people? So, so, like, personally taking personal loans? Sounds like they're rolling personal loans. So not necessarily, you know, their, their Amex payment or whatever they're paying two thousand dollars a month in interest on or something, but they're just rolling personal loans. So do you guys know people who who don't, who, who a, have the income to just do that, B, don't really understand what's happening with respect to prices, price increases, and C are just generally fiscally that irresponsible and, and, and high time preference.

I mean, personally, no, I don't know anybody like that, but I can imagine, like, I would not probably be able to maintain a friendship with someone like that.

It would just be too much.

It'd be like, this is too stressful for me to be a part of.

Sorry, bro.

Sorry, buddy.

I mean, I know some people with money who were like, they don't care about the interest rate, which is ludicrous. And so like, okay, maybe you'll pay thousands a month in interest on your credit card, but it's because you forgot or don't care or like you're just that fucking rich or whatever.

Okay, I guess.

But like, it's either that or, you know, somebody like my mom, for instance, she's like the opposite of that. She's hyper fiscally responsible to the extent that I can't even give her money. I told her, I was like, Mom, there's this, the banks, they'll just hand you money. They literally give it to you for free. It's called interest. And you can just deposit your money at like betterment for 4% and they'll just, they'll give you money. And she's strapped for cash. And she's like, nope, I don't understand that. Like, nope, no, no free money, not for me. No, thank you.

I mean, as everyone on this call.

Is well aware, the people it makes.

Sense for are the people who have assets. And as everyone on this call is well aware, the whole game being, hey, We can put a whole bunch of assets on credit, assets on debt, which is just a mortgage, right? And then the bet is, oh, there's going to be hyperinflation. So the debt value itself is going to go down or the nominally it's going to go down despite the fact of whatever the interest rate is. But all of that comes back around into the value of the asset. So the value of the asset outstrips the actual debt you're paying consequently. You're not actually ever selling any assets, you're just getting any more debt, but the debt is getting devalued. And so you're kind of at the top of the pyramid, that track of, it's the buy, borrow, die mindset, right? That's where a quote unquote makes sense to people.

Quick poll. How many people do you guys think, roughly speaking, in your personal circles are worth more than, have a net worth invested in traditional investments? Over six figures. Like five people, 10 people, 25 people.

Net worth over six.

Yeah, I'm muted again.

Yeah. You don't really know what's going on in people's personal finances unless they divulge that information to you. So, you know, like there are people that have money that has they inherited because somebody died that's just wrapped up. They don't even know. They're just like, this is in mutual funds. I don't know. Like, I have a million dollars in this account, but I need money to retire. And that person could, you know, have an actual income of like $80,000 a year and they just look like a lower middle class type of person. Or you could have somebody who's doing what I'm describing and bawling out on car purchases and you're like, that person is rich. And yet they're in like a desperate financial situation. And I sort of assume a lot of times when friends of mine are constantly getting new cars, that's usually how I know. I'm like, that person is, they're in the trap.

Yep. If I see a G-Wagon on Sherman Way, I'm like, oof, ouch. That guy's fucked.

I mean, there is some real, you know, real disparity between financial intelligence and practical reality. Like, I remember going back to your, your question, Zach, one of my friends at some point, this is years ago, was like, yeah, I got a million bucks in my checking account. And I was like, idiot. Why? Why on earth would you just let that be there? You're just losing money. At a million bucks a clip at just the average 10% monetary base, you're losing $100,000 a year just for no reason.

Yeah.

Unbelievable.

Just light it on fire, dude.

Just light it on fire.

I didn't have my first course on balancing a checkbook until my junior year of college. Just for reference.

I had mine in, actually, in elementary school, but that was the first and last time I ever used a checkbook, so I don't. I don't know.

I I literally never had one. I had to just figure it out on my own. I was like, oh, what are these numbers? These, like, lines for? You're like, oh, balancing a job. I think. I don't think I learned that one until I was, like, 32.

I was. I was working with a client who is Australian. And I pulled out checks and she was like, what the hell is that? They don't use checks in Australia, which is funny. Dude.

Okay. All right.

Sorry. So here's the real quick.

I just looked up the average debt. So the average person in the US, this is average, $157,000 in debt. And most of that is not credit card debt. The average credit card debt is actually way lower. It's only $9,000 to $10,000. But the average mortgage debt. Yeah, mortgage 250,000.

There you go.

That's averages for that's but that's averaging the entire US and not everybody owns a house.

Interesting. So more so so debt dis including credit card debt 150 ish mortgage debt.

250 ish not including national debt spread across the whole population which is another 250. On everybody else's, everyone's back.

These are averages. That's including women, children, elderly, young people. So the reality is that Americans are deeply, deeply in debt, and it is going to, this is one thing that is going to get much worse. Your life is going to get better on a Bitcoin standard. But sadly, as an American, your debt situation is going to get worse if you are not on a Bitcoin standard.

I, when I'm orange peeling somebody, you know, like you're either, you're either, there's some, there's some point of conception, there's some moment of vulnerability where a person's brain goes from pre financial like curiosity to post financial curiosity. And I don't know. I don't know what that Gene is or, like, if it's predetermined in someone or, you know, kind of like croesus's article. I think we were sharing that one, but, yeah, it.

It.

I I guess what I'm saying is.

Like.

Someone could be destitute, like, just full-blown loot, like.

And it. And it.

They're not. They're. It's not going to matter. It doesn't, they don't care. They're just like, okay, I guess, you know, well, this sucks. I don't know what the, I don't know, I'm just griping at this point, you know, like, it, there's nothing more important than this. Uh, if, if you don't, if you, you know, but I guess some people are just into having a hard time. Like, you know, hey, I would like this to be on super difficult mode. Like some people do that, right? They play video game on ultra hard mode. Like, why the fuck would you do that? Like, you go outside. Like, that's hard mode. Like, I'm here to have a good time. Easy, bro. Headshot.

It's such a good point. You're right.

It's only 360 scope. Only.

Go ahead.

Sorry.

Some people want to live life on hard mode. You know, it's just into it. Is it a genetic thing?

What do you guys think?

I mean, there's also like part of this isn't the case for everybody obviously, but part of the massive bump in homelessness is because a lot of people just give up on participating in the legacy system entirely. There's no hope to participate in this. I either have to become someone's debt slave to do the thing or I have to become someone's employee and like never make enough to do the thing without being a debt. It's just like there's literally no path for so many people in the legacy world. And consequently they just give up. It's just like, I just can't, you know, or the people who don't think about it too much and are just like, oh yeah, I'll just pile on the debt. It's going to get devalued, right? Or, pile on the career. I'm gonna work 80 hours and never see my children. Whatever.

Yeah.

You have the Dave Ramsey's of the world that are like, just eat beans and rice and just pick yourself up by your bootstraps and just make it work and spend less money. If you're a homeless person in Los Angeles, you have one infected leg, you can't see out of one eye, you have half your teeth, and you're a little mentally ill. If you were to pick yourself up by your bootstraps and get a minimum wage job, you're maybe going to make like 30 or $40,000 a year. Well, I hate to break it to you. You can't even survive in Los Angeles without making at least $100,000 a year. So they have no hope whatsoever. It's literally better for them to just sit on the street, ask for money, get a check from the government and do drugs. That's a better option for them than trying to make it. It would be more of an effort and It would be less enjoyable of a life if they were working a minimum wage job than to do what they're currently doing now, which is just giving up.

Yeah.

And that's not even to mention the amount of difficulty and hurdles you have to jump through just to get the minimum wage job, which is to say you have to get a bank account because they're going to do direct deposit because they're not going to send you a paycheck. Okay. Well, even if they could send you a paycheck if you're homeless, where is it going to go? Two. Even to get a bank account, you still need an address, right? Like, oh, okay, well, I'm gonna pay for my address with the. With the money that I get at the job I can't get because I don't have an address. And just kind of, like, goes on like this, right? Like, the system doesn't exist to help anyone.

This is the system.

This exists to make reality. Awful for everybody who's just trying to survive.

I'm not laughing at suffering, by the way. I'm not. It's like, it's how can this is so comical. It's such a dark comedy.

It's so bad. It really is so bad.

Speaking of Gavin Newsom's meme coin. Do we think.

Do we, is that a buy?

Are we going?

I don't know.

No.

Always at the end of the day.

It'S like, All damn.

You know, what do we think about people who know the system is rigged? I would argue all politicians know that it's rigged. But what do we think about people who know the system is rigged using that system in a way to personally enrich themselves at the cost of other people? Like, let me actually ask this question simpler. Do you guys think that politicians should be capped at their salary and anything above that salary should go direct towards the national debt to force them into the mindset of public service?

No, no, because it doesn't, because that doesn't even make sense. The system, the root of the system is so corrupt. Let me put it this way. The system is so ridiculous that this concept of paying back the national debt is, is, It's literally nonsense. It's literally nonsense.

You can't.

Okay, we're going to Hoover out all of the dollars that exist in the world and then put the Federal Reserve balance sheet at zero. Well, there's no money. Literally nobody has. So now we got to come up.

With a new money.

Like it doesn't even make sense.

So just print the trillion dollar coin, man. Just print the trillion dollar coin. Mint the coin. No, you can't. I don't know. Term limits. I. I like the way you phrased it. I like the way you phrased the first one, JD, which is that they're cowards at best and they're evil at worst. That's my opinion on it.

I think there's only.

Go on.

I'll say mine quick. I think if you. In my mind, if you hold public office in any regard, you should be capped at your salary and you should be capped with an incentive based on what it is that is the most advantageous to the entirety of your nation for you to actually make more than what your salary cap is. So I agree with you that we will never get to zero, but I think we will never get to zero in any way, shape or form on anything positive. Until we tie directly any incentives for anyone in government to a positive GDP moniker for the entire world. And so what do you mean by that is you will be forced to see Bitcoin as a politician as the only possible way. And, you know, just getting throwing out the baby with the bathwater of this Fiat system is the only way. That's my, that's my take. And I think if if we can incentivize that, that's actually how we can get to a place of positive incentive and positive reinforcement. But right now, the negative incentive is so powerful and so easy. You have people like Nancy Pelosi, you have people like Mitch McConnell, you have people on both sides of the aisle that are using their public office for 9 million years of personal enrichment. And all they get is a slap on the wrist because they're the ones who are using the accountants and the lawyers to play the game in the best possible way.

They write the rules. They're like, they're gonna slap themselves on the wrist.

It's all public.

It's all public slaps on the wrist. It's not even real. Yeah, it's all fake.

Part of the thing that, I mean, to bring it back to the very start of this conversation, well, why accountants, why lawyers, you know, oh, well, they have to interpret the thing that the, they have to solve this problem about the, well, why does the law exist in the first place? The law exists because we don't really have good I don't know, mediating infrastructure that allows people to resolve their conflicts and difficulties, right? Part of that, a lot of that is just that technology hasn't been able to put a price on stuff yet. Because as we're Bitcoiners, we know that fees are an actual mitigating factor. Prices are a mitigating... Price is the signal that tells people how to invest. Price is the signal that allows people to coordinate across distance and time. Now, if you have laws in lieu of a price, we're going to have to have people in blah, blah, blah. But if you can build technology that allows people to have prices on things and allows people to facilitate problem solving via actual physics, via actual reality, well, then you're going to start to see the absurdities of the system come out. Well, what's your interpretation? What's your interpretation? It doesn't freaking matter what your interpretation is because this is the actual cost rubber hits the road reality. And until we get the rubber hits the road reality of actual costs and actual technology and actual things, we're just going to have these goofball politicians going ham on whatever Insider deals and all the rest of it.

It, it kind of begs the question.

Like.

A collection of laws at their, at, at their best, it are essentially a representation of culture. You have to have, like, a relatively homogenous group of people from an ideological perspective to have a functioning legal system. Like everybody, like it's the rules of the road and everybody has to agree. In our culture, we think that this is the best way to go about life. And so we're all going to write them down, we're going to memorize them, we're going to habituate them over hundreds or thousands of years. And this is going to be what we consider our culture.

You.

You can't, you know, like, so that's at its best. It's. It's best version of laws.

And.

And so you need, like, an isolated group of human beings for a legal system to function some relatively smoothly. But we're in a world now where that's out the window. Like, human. Every culture is connected. The whole thing is going to start turning Brown, you know, like, all the colors are mixing. We're doing. We're doing the. Thing. And the only set of rules that's going to matter going forward are physics. Because we're not going to be able to agree collectively on what cultural value system is the best way to run the world. Because somebody's going to come by who abides by the laws of physics over your particular ideology and they're going to smoke you. So, In some way, maybe we're just going to like an ultra pragmatist. Like all of humanity is just going to be forced into like abject pragmatism.

I think actually it's going to be a redefinition and reemergence, or that's the best way to say it is, it'll be a rediscovery of the true meaning of value for value. Physics and biology and like hard sciences, math is the truest form of value for value that exists. The, the sun, you know, is giving out value to the world in the form of energy. And then it is our job to figure out how we can take that and then do something else with it. And I'm leaving out the God aspect of this. But the whole point of the value for value thing is gravity is valuable and that is it is constant. And so if I want to build a rocket and shoot it off to Mars, I know that I am dealing with a constant that will deal with me in the same way every single time. And so we're getting to this world where people are going to be forced to confront the fake reality that they have created for themselves, whether it be gender identity politics, whether it be politics in general that actually do nothing, that just pit you against other people, whether it be a lack of understanding of your biology. And I mean biology in the racial sense of like Japan as a homogenous culture, the United States as a homogenous culture, you know, South Africa as a homogenous culture. Like we're seeing these issues where there are different afflictions that you have based on your literal biology that are not bad, actually. Like the whole point of like diversity is if every single painting was just a giant black smear, no paintings would be beautiful, right? Like having different brushes and different tools and different ways to solve different problems is actually the way to get to the best solution because you have a bunch of different ways to solve the problem. And so I think the biggest issue we've been running into of late is politicians and people in general want to keep you misinformed and confused because that's how they can remain at the top of this pyramid. They can remain at the top of the pyramid using their Fiat system to make money or using their brain and their understanding of the system to keep you down in the bottom tier of this pyramid we talked about at the beginning. Because at the end of the day, if they can keep their lives working on a flywheel that is built on your back, they're gonna do it. Because it's easy. And the way out.

The way out for you is Bitcoin. Bitcoin is the physical connection to the physical reality where you can just opt out of the garbage BS Legacy Fiat system and just connect to actual physical value that's actually connected to reality that nobody can with. So just look at it.

Look at it purely.

Right?

Like we're talking about. So let's boil what JD was saying down to its ultra simple, simple version, which is that human beings have the ability to transmute energy. We're not God. We can't create energy. We can't destroy it, but we can transmute it, which is pretty cool. That's a pretty sweet power. So ultimately, by providing value is that you're transmuting one form of energy into another that somebody else found useful and is willing to pay you for it. So what was the cost of the transmutation? That's ultimately what you're providing value for. And Bitcoin right now, you're buying that in-between state of energy transmutation before it inflates and everybody's using it, which is pretty cool. But at the end of the day, even that, you're still gonna have to figure out a way to transmute energy that somebody else, or ideally a lot of people find very valuable and are.

Willing to pay you for.

Zach, you basically summarized the sovereign individual, the book, the Sovereign Individual, in the prior rant that you had. And that book, when you read it, it can feel a little dated. The reason it feels a little dated is because they're like, all these things are going to happen. Something is gonna make it happen, but they didn't have the something, and now we have the something, and that something is Bitcoin. So if you start with the fact that Bitcoin is the solution to these problems, then you can kind of work your, you can figure out how to get there, you know?

Yeah. Yeah.

Which I think is how so many of us got here, right? We kind of backed into it. We knew something was off and we found the solution first and then we just went backwards from the solution and went, oh my God, it drove through the entire continental US and explains everything. It literally just explains all of these problems. Now, I think we talked about this before, but go ahead, Indeehub.

Well, I was just gonna say, I was just gonna say, like, for example, there are still all these currencies all over the world. You have, like, the Japanese use Yen, the British use pounds, the rest of Europe uses the Euro. Czechia has their own currency, and Hungary has their own currency and all these things. None of that even needs to exist anymore. We have a global monetary currency now. It is Bitcoin. So it's like the solution already exists, and yet we still live in this world that hasn't discovered the solution. And so you have to operate in the world as it exists now when you already know where things are going and what the result is going to be. We just haven't arrived there yet.

Yep. Sorry. Battery change is. Is. Is Bitcoin. Is it compromised? JD, what's going on with this whole node thing? Did. Are we. Do we need to sell?

I think it's no more compromised than the Federal Reserve.

So Ultra. Ultra.

Absolutely no hope left, guys.

It's all gone.

And what I mean by that is it's only as valuable as people who run it. And so, you know, if we can get enough people who are monetary. No, it's, it's the truth, though, right? It's like anything that has people involved will be corruptible. And bitcoin is no different. Like, if you get enough people that are corrupt running nodes and running the network, bitcoin can become corrupt. Like, I hate, you know, I, I saw Odell posted on Noster. He was like, everything is good for bitcoin. I was like, no, I agree with that. Or rather, he's like, the biggest psy up in bitcoin is that everything's good for bitcoin. I totally agree with that. Because not everything is good for Bitcoin. There is value in Bitcoin growing slowly and organically. I think one of the big things right now is we're like, why isn't Bitcoin at a million bucks right now? It's because it'd probably be dead. If Bitcoin didn't have this slow rise to prominence like it's had, it would have been co-opted a long time ago because we're I was actually reading about.

This.

In the Bible today, but the biggest thing is how do you make something stronger? You tear it down. That's how you make your muscles stronger. That's how you make your mind stronger. That's how they make you stronger if you're going to go join the military. What do they do? They destroy you to rebuild you stronger. And so that's kind of, I think, where we're at with Bitcoin right now. What's going on with this core versus knots thing? Is one of the things that's actually essential to creating a really resilient system. Because if we didn't have these stressors happening from people who are actually ideologically inclined to make this thing succeed, it would just be completely gone. And so I think there actually is a lot of value in this debate. Hopefully, and even Lucas posted, we see more knots. We see more core. It's not just knots and core. It's knots core, something else and something else and something else. Like if we had this consensus and there was a lot more opportunity for people to pick exactly the node system and structure that worked. I'm not an engineer. I don't understand how that would work. But I think the goal here is we don't want just one Federal Reserve. We don't want just core. We don't want just knots. We want really rigorous refinement and really rigorous you know, just like testing of this network, because if we're going to add 300 trillion dollars to this monetary network, all of the world's worth under one roof, it kind of needs to not suck. So I think there's a lot of value in what's going on right now in, in this debate. And actually, the heatedness of the exchange, I think is good because it kind of sucks from a perspective of, like, you want everybody to like each other, but at the same time, if everybody likes each other, nothing gets done, right? It's like the number of dudes you hear is like, why did you do that so hard? It's like, oh, because I hated my dad or I hated my mom.

Right?

But it's the truth. It's the truth. Fear will move you. Anger will motivate you. And so right now there's this really important motivation and moving Bitcoin in a direction that will make it the apex predator. You don't become a honey badger by sitting in your hole. You become a honey badger by going out there and killing snakes.

So what you're saying is everything is good for bitcoin.

Hold on to your anus. That is what I'm saying here, my friends.

Okay, so we need to do, like, a whole. I I really do wanna. I would be willing to, like, produce a show with them to, like, really walk. There's so many gaps in this thing that I feel like most people are just completely glossing over because it's complicated, but I feel like it's worth. Painting the picture, you know, like in painstaking detail on how nodes work, how data is transmitted, what the implications are between doing this versus doing that. I think it would be worthwhile because it's, I don't, sure, you can say, yeah, you put in a filter and you don't want kitty porn on your computer. Okay, obviously, but I don't think that that's really, those don't illuminate what the real thing that's going on here, I don't think.

Yeah, I think a good place to start is the block size war book. Just kind of get an understanding of, like, the context in 2010, you know, between 2010 and 2013, I think was the time frame of that book. But it does get hyper technical, and I think that is going to be one of the challenges because, like, the number of times I'm, you know, listening to something or kind of digging into something, I'm like, ah. I was like, I knew I was retarded, but I didn't know I was that retarded. And so I think that's one of the things, too, is there, there is a piece of this debate that is just ideological. And it's like, it's, I don't think there's a wrong side of the ideological debate. And people can fight me on that one because I think we need people to have every ideological perspective so we can actually see the whole picture. Because at the end of the day, there ultimately will be a wrong side of the ideological debate. But I don't think there is a, like, you know, kitty porn is bad. Okay, there's, there, that, that's a good. Side of the debate.

Right.

But the, the key here is, I do think from a free speech, free speech perspective, like I just saw outside of the fact that they're like, you know, hanging people or whatever in the UK for hanging up UK Flags, which is just kind of funny. But it's like, if you can't, you know, look something in the face and have a discussion about it, you're never going to get anywhere. That's one of the things that I love about, you know, the Bitcoin Meetup that we run here in LA, is we have people on all sides of the spectrum and we can have a conversation. We don't care. If you voted for Trump or Obama or, you know, you think Joe Biden is not a vegetable, like, we love you and vice, vice versa, like, you know, orange man bad. I don't really care. The fact that we can have a discussion, I think, is the most important part of this debate. And at the end of the day, I think Bitcoin and everything will be stronger for it. There is still a chance it will die.

Right.

That's with all things, you know, but pruning. If you ever get a chance to talk to Ben Justman, the way you make your grapes do what you want them to do is you treat them like children and you prune them and you help them focus and they need to focus their energy in the right direction. And that I think is what's happening right now with Bitcoin is there is an aspect of like, oh, filtering is good, filtering is bad. That's a bigger discussion. But regardless, we are pruning the network to make the network do what we want to do, which is to be a really good measure of value for 100 plus years and then something better will come along. But for now, this is the best we got. So we got to Steward it, I think is the correct word, and make it the best possible thing for the most number of people.

I can tell you want to say something about this.

Well, that's it.

I would say that probably 99.9 of people, if they were to tune in to us talking about this right now, would not have a clue what we're even referring to.

And.

I think that's sort of a problem. It's like Bitcoin is this technical thing that both isn't a company, so it's decentralized and just kind of runs on its own. But there's also a group of developers who can upgrade Bitcoin if enough people agree on the upgrade. So Bitcoin does just exist, but it can also be changed. And I think that's the thing that people don't really understand. It's like, is Bitcoin just, did somebody hit click and go and it just exists forever in the state that it is, or can it change over time? So I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, Bondor, because I feel like you're the best one to explain it.

So.

To just tackle it from a really high level, for me, the way I explain it and the way I communicate it to somebody who's not technical is when you run a Bitcoin node, that is your vote. You are voting. It's no different than participating in the legacy, like you are voting for a politician. When you run a Bitcoin node, you are voting. Every 10 minutes you're saying, and all the time in between the 10 minutes, you're voting about what you think the network should be and should look like. In the current debate, and I'm gonna butcher this JD, jump in where I'm off. In the current debate, what the current debate is about is about filtering and the relays about what constitutes a valid or not necessarily valid, but more just kosher use of the network, let's say. Now, if I disagree that that's a kosher use of the network, then on my node, I should run software that asserts my opinion, which is to say in this current debate, it's op return should be 80 bytes versus 1000 kilobytes.

Wait, pause for one sec, Bondor. So when you say vote, when you say you're voting, what you mean is the The vote is that you're running a particular version of the software. That's what you mean. So in other words, Joe Biden or Donald Trump is just one version of Bitcoin software. Donald Trump's the other version of the Bitcoin software. You have to choose which version of software you want to run on your computer, and that in effect is the vote that you're talking about.

Correct.

Yeah.

Okay.

Got it.

So when, and those votes have implications and they have, you know, you have to like look down the implications of, hey, what happens if I run this? What happens if a lot of people run this? What happens if the network goes in that direction? What's going to happen? And the user activated software is the primary example because that's the one where the block size changed. And we got segregated witness and that whole thing back to the block wars thing is a whole another topic. But that's the basic idea. If a whole bunch of people decide to run software that is signaling to the miners that a whole bunch of nodes are going to just start rejecting blocks if they don't conform to this new standard by this particular date, Well, that's a big risk for a miner because they can lose a lot of money. So they're going to be like, no, we're actually, yeah, actually we're not going to disagree with that, the user-activated software sub whatever, intransigent minority, consequently, the policies for the user-activated software got pushed through network-wide. Now, we're not in a fork kind of situation with the filter thing. What we're in is a lot of people having ideological differences and technical gaps in their understanding about how all the pieces come together. Bitcoin is by no means a simple system. And when somebody, like, has a really strong opinion, like mechanic is going out there and putting himself on the line and being like, no, no, no, you guys, this is the end of bitcoin if we don't push in this direction.

Right.

The only caveat I would. Yeah, the only caveat. No, good.

Go on. No, go on.

I'll say fast. Keep going on the train. But I think the only big thing I'd say there is outside of the ideological understanding of it is operturn 80 KB or 1000 KB. The bigger piece is core, which is still the largest, the most widely disseminated and run version of Bitcoin, remove the choice. So you're forced into this decision is the bigger piece. So the bigger piece here is not only is there an ideological difference and understanding of this is you are no longer given the choice or you're forced into the ideology of core. That I think is the bigger piece of this is, is there are a lot of really big voices that were opposed to, they were nacking and ACK, which is they're not acknowledging versus ACK, which is acknowledging this change. And the core folks are like, we just don't agree with you. And even though there are fewer people who acknowledge this thing, Jameson Lopp and a couple others, we're gonna do it anyways. And so was the issue here was the people who were pushing for this ideological shift in core, which didn't just do the ideological thing, which was change Opra turn from 80 to a thousand while giving you the chance to change it yourself is they changed it and then removed any and all possibility of you as a user to change it. So now if you are running the core software, you don't even get the choice. You are just accepting the ideology. That being said, UASF was a similar thing, right? So it's like we're in this place where, you know, there's a lot of discussion happening. And the question here is, you know, how much free speech do you have on your own node? That's kind of the question here. And how much free speech, I'm going to say, do the regards have? Because at the end of the day, there are not a lot of people who fully understand the ramifications, myself included, of a thousand KB versus an 80 KB. Opera turn 80 byte.

80 byte.

Yeah, KB. But, yeah, again, id10t here. But the bigger issue is you no longer have the choice, whereas Bitcoin knots give you the choice. And so that's why they're up at almost 20 of the network now in a matter of a couple of weeks, because there's a big ideological understanding of, hey, even if you want to make this change core. It does kind of look like egg on your face because Jameson Lopp and a lot of the other big people are actually funded by shitcoin companies verifiable and they run shitcoin companies verifiable. And so the big issue here is, is this change they want to make because they're being paid like Peter Todd who's come out and said he's been paid a bunch of times to actually like shill things and he'll even say like, I was paid this much. And it's like, cool. So if you're being paid to make a change, do you believe it or you just want a paycheck? And that I think is the bigger issue here is like, when you're making fundamental changes to something that's going to be a $300 trillion asset reserve essentially, because that's where Bitcoin is hopefully going to go. You need to ask those ideological questions is, are you doing this just because you're getting a paycheck and somebody who's smarter than you sees what they want to do and they want to mold the network to their will, or are you giving the most people the most amount of choice? I don't know the answer to those questions, but again, I think all of the questions are fair on all sides. And I do think, though, it is kind of egg on your face core.

To.

Remove people's opportunity to do it and then dance on the grave of the fact that we remove this choice from people. That's just never going to go over well when you take away a decision and then you just kind of brag about it. I don't know who your PR guy is, but they're stupid.

Yeah, I mean, that speaks to my point ultimately, which is this is a multifaceted complex topic that has not only a technical layer, but also a practical layer. Like, hey, you'll hear arguments like, oh, the filters don't work. And then somebody will point out to the, the Practical reality that they're actually working. And then you'll hear somebody else be like, well, that's just your version of, of how you would interpret that data.

Right?

Like, your ideological presuppositions are informing your, your take on that. And it's just, it just kind of goes on and on and on and on like that.

So again.

But at some level, this is kind of just like politics, right? This is we're like, oh, we look at the, we, we look to our president to be like, well, do I want to vote for that? Do I, do I, do I agree with that? Like, do I even know what he stands for? And then you have to go down the rabbit hole of trying to figure out what his actual policies are and what, what is the, what is this memorandum and what is this, like gonna do and how does this affect the tax and blah blah blah? It's just this crazy long thing. But at the end of the day, if you believe that voting is going to be worth your time, like you really ought to go down that rabbit hole and figure that out, right? Like you can't just phone it in and be like, oh yeah, well, I'm team red. So huh, like that's just, you know, the standard meme of We were told to vote for the lesser of two evils and we're disappointed that evil won, right?

Yeah.

It's the whole thing. It's just following orders. It's just following orders. Exactly.

Yeah.

So it's the exact same thing, but it's in bitcoin and it's a system that is actually working, that's actually connecting value to reality, that's actually going through the process of undoing a lot of the absurd evil in the world. And gosh, do I spend my time voting in this absurd system and trying to figure that out versus spend my time trying to figure Bitcoin out, which can actually have a lot of hope for the future and actually improve people's lives, actually solve at a root issue some of these fundamental problems? Well, yeah, it's worth fighting for. It's worth understanding it. And you don't have to understand or come to a conclusion right away. Your vote is a perpetual vote, right? Your vote can change over time. You can figure out and get new information and that changes your perspective and it changes how you're going to move forward or not move forward or what you're going to do. There's also just the technical reality of it. Like JD, you said, when core 30 is going to force people to take a particular action, well, no. I mean, yes, but also no, because Core and the development team behind Core and everybody else, they can't actually force anybody anywhere to run Core 30. It's impossible, the Bitcoin client, the 30th release. It's impossible for them to force that onto anybody. What if just nobody upgrades? Well, then nobody is going to be running Core 30 and nobody's going to be able to force through that gate, right? And so, well, yeah, but everybody who's, you know, wants to run high quality production software is going to be like, well, we need to have updated systems. Consequently, the update in our system will, hey, we don't want to have outdated stuff, so we got to run core 30. Okay, well, then you're now being forced in that, but that's because of your ideological choice with regards to running an updated node or maybe you have a business that relies on this kind of thing. It's like everybody's situation is going to be a little bit different and there's all sorts of nuance and you have to come to the conclusion for yourself about and your situation about what you're going to do and how you're going to do it. For me personally, it's like, well, I think I'm still on like, I don't know, core 21 or core 23 or something like that. I'm like way behind. I don't update very often because it's like, No, bleeding edge Bitcoin, don't really need it. This works for me right now.

And.

The idea that Core is trying to change Bitcoin, this has been a part of Core's philosophy for a long time now. I remember John Carvajal, Bitcoin Airlock, getting on a whole, he did a whole podcast couple years ago about how they were removing RBf optionality. I forget the exact nuance of it, but he's basically saying, you guys are changing the default state of Bitcoin, and that's a problem because you shouldn't change Bitcoin at all. And so he basically put his foot down. He's like, I'm not updating Core from this point forward, apart from, and this was years ago, right? You guys, you don't have to update Core. And, hey, you want to fight them directly, run nuts. You have business interests that require you to update core, update core. But you have to decide for yourself and you can't listen to me or JD or anybody else about what your personal choices are going to be. Now, we have opinions about what they should be, but ultimately you're going to have to make those choices for yourself.

As someone with RBF, you should listen to me. Just saying. This is great.

I.

Do you guys have any last thoughts kind of going around the horn?

But, you know, does it help at all, Zach? Is that, like, getting juices flowing or nothing?

I I wanna so many juices that it's just not even. It's literally not worth it because we don't have time. I think we need to. I think we need to do a series on this. And I'll host it just from a beginning idiot user's perspective and try to just boil this down to something that's digestible and simple and actionable and one in which you can participate. And talk about the hypotheticals because I got into Bitcoin so I could avoid shit like this.

Well, I mean, at some point you're not going to be able to avoid humanity, right?

Well said, Zach.

We should do that and that will be valuable. It will be very niche because there just aren't that many people I mean, I guess that's relative. There could be tens of thousands of bitcoiners who are technical enough and want to figure this stuff out. Just for a second, I want to speak to the masses, to everybody. The analogy that it seems like most people have for bitcoin is they think bitcoin is kind of like democracy. Whatever the majority want, that's just what's going to happen. It's more like in the Revolutionary War, you had the colonial kingdom of the British Empire. And then you had these people in America who had, who were the righteous ones. They were the ones with the right ideas, and they were just more powerful because they were more passionate and they were fighting on the side of righteousness. That is what I believe is going to move Bitcoin forward. It's why Bitcoin exists. It's not that we're the majority. It's that we're right and we're just going to fight so hard that we're going to make sure that Bitcoin is successful. Because like we said in the beginning of the episode, Bitcoin is the solution to all of this and we're not going to let it go. So we should have that conversation. We should really have a debate, make it a series, talk about the technical details, figure it out. But For those of us like me who couldn't even begin to think of the technical stuff, I basically just want to motivate people to say that we are going to fight to make sure that Bitcoin doesn't go anywhere and Bitcoin is the solution.

And if we don't, you're going to die.

If we lose, you die.

If you don't, look, you can join the fight. And maybe win or don't join the fight and you're for sure gonna die.

For sure lose.

Yeah.

100% guaranteed. And if not die, you'll want to die because you're just gonna end up being somebody's slave or they're just gonna execute you because you're kind of a burden or whatever. So join or die. That's the point. Well said.

I think it's funny that you use the same parlance as my parents. It's really cool. Join or die. Good familial motivators there.

I think hard money, hard problems. I think that title ended up being appropriate, but for different reasons. I don't know. What's the takeaway here? The thing that's fantastic about Bitcoin, one of the many things that attracted me to it was with great power comes great responsibility.

And.

It'S a much better game to be responsible for the outcome of the game and to learn something from it and to get something better from it than it is to do what somebody else tells you to do all day with your time and your life and your choices. I'd rather be wrong on my terms than right on somebody else's. That's just me. Maybe that's not you, but I think Bitcoin affords us the opportunity. It gives us agency. And I don't think that there is anything more valuable than agency. Again, I'd rather be wrong. I'd rather be genuinely wrong and learn something than to mindlessly do something correct in a way that somebody else just told me to do it. So there you go.

I think for me, the big takeaway is that in Bitcoin, your vote actually counts. Your node that you're running is your vote and it's actually participating in the network. It's actually doing something in the Legacy World. When you vote, hey, maybe your vote isn't even counted.

You just.

There's almost no way to actually go through the process of. Oh, well, yeah, my vote.

Yeah.

I verified it was counted. Oh, yeah, we did the double. Okay, so everything's good to go. And then the person you voted for was just a total liar and lied to you the entire. Process. And so everything you fought for is just undone, right? But that's just not the case with Bitcoin. It actually, the node over my shoulder right here is actually running the software that I want it to run. And there's nobody on earth who can change the software that I choose to run on my node.

So.

Hard money, hard problems. Mo Bitcoin, less problems.

But also Mo problems.

Different problems. Different problems for sure.

You're gonna have to decide on what kind of diesel engine you'd like on your yacht. And that's a complicated issue.

Solar man, if your yacht's not solar, it's not worth owning.

You see what I mean? It's already complicated. Being rich is already exhausting.

Oh, man.

So funny. Yeah, I think the tying together two of your takes, but the core for hard money, high problems is you will be forced in a deflationary environment to think about things you never thought you would have to think about again because you're going to, or rather, you will be forced to think about things in a way that you never have to think about them again. You will make a decision where you're buying a refrigerator, that's a 100 year refrigerator. Like you will make a decision where you're buying a home with the intention to live in that home as a forever home. It's gonna be a very different way of thinking about this leapfrogging asset thing that just kind of like will get you up. You know, the whole thing as we deflate and we get back to a world where one income can reach homeostasis for a family. People will be able to have bigger existential and ideological conversations with their spouse and with their family and need to actually think about 20, 30, 40, 50 year ramifications for something as small as buying a car. Do we even want to own a car? Would we want to own an asset that could be generating us income because it'll just sit there and go out and drive itself and drop people off, right? It's going to be a completely different world. And that's pretty exciting.

Yep. Sweet.

All right, well, thank you, everybody, for joining in and listening to episode 40. We'll see if we can get that debate going. And if we can, we'll keep you posted. But other than that, we hope everybody has a great week and hope to see you. See you soon.

Peace.

Thanks.

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