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Every year, around 10,000 people gather for two days in the Estonian town of Paide for the Arvamusfestival. At the festival they take part in more than 200 public discussions, debates and dialogues. The Estonian word 'arvamus' means 'opinion'. But this festival is about much more than opinions. It is a true festival of democracy, predominantly organised in the Baltic and Nordic regions of Europe.
In this episode, the host Bart Cosijn gives you an impression of this festival and talks to visitors, speakers and organisers. He interviews Kristina Mänd, senior Expert on e-Democracy at the Estonian e-Governance Academy. Ross Allen, the British Ambassador to Estonia. And Kaspar Tammist, the festival's leader from 2019 to 2024.
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The Estonian Dialogue Academy is a place of encounter, inspiration and learning. We teach dialogue and critical thinking skills, we train dialogue facilitators and organisers, and we promote a more inclusive and interactive culture of communication – in local communities, schools, NGOs, governments, businesses, politics and public discussion.
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In this episode, the host Bart Cosijn gives you an impression of this festival and talks to visitors, speakers and organisers. He interviews Kristina Mänd, senior Expert on e-Democracy at the Estonian e-Governance Academy. Ross Allen, the British Ambassador to Estonia. And Kaspar Tammist, the festival's leader from 2019 to 2024.
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The Estonian Dialogue Academy is a place of encounter, inspiration and learning. We teach dialogue and critical thinking skills, we train dialogue facilitators and organisers, and we promote a more inclusive and interactive culture of communication – in local communities, schools, NGOs, governments, businesses, politics and public discussion.
Follow us on:
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What is Inimesed?
In this podcast we talk to people in and around Estonia about how they communicate with each other. We go into families, workplaces, schools, local communities, public spaces and businesses to discuss their cultures of conversation, participation and decision-making.
How do people talk about issues that matter to them? Or issues that create tensions in communities or society at large? What are the conditions for real, genuine conversation? Or how do people communicate with strangers? These and other questions are at the heart of this podcast.
The Estonian word 'inimesed' means 'people'. Do you have any ideas, questions or suggestions for the guests? Or do you have a story you would like to tell yourself about? Please contact us at podcast@eda.ee
We want to be open for everyone. We want everyone to be able to come. That's why we don't have ticket prices. That's why we don't have limitations of participation.
Ross:I think there's nothing worse in life than turning up to a discussion where you have three or four people, really vigorously agreeing the whole time.
Kristina:How do we make it so that people come and openly discuss their opinions, approaches, ideas, criticism, feedback, and learn from that talking what others are thinking.
Bart:Welcome to 'Inimesed', the podcast of the Estonian Dialogue Academy. My name is Bart Cosijn I am the founder and your host. I'm in a city in the heart of Estonia of about 8,000 people. It's still a little bit raining. The sun comes out now and then. Earlier, some showers, and I'm walking under big trees in a beautiful park on top of the old fortification of the Castle of Paida. And I'm not alone here. Every year in the August, the number of people in Paida more than doubles when 10,000 people come together for the Arvamusfestival.
Bart:The Estonian word 'arvamus' means 'opinion', but this festival is about much more than just opinions. It is a true democracy festival. Or you could say discussion festival, in a tradition that has specifically spread in the Baltics and Northern Europe. Let me sketch a picture of Atramus festival. I have the program here in my hand. Over two days, more than 200 discussions, debates, dialogues, and other type public conversations take place.
Bart:The themes are very diverse, from the position of women in the police force to the impact of free school meals, from Russian disinformation in Europe, to taboos around men's mental health, from negative impact of temporary work contracts to questions around who controls the Estonian forest. And this year, the festival is taking place for the twelfth time. In this episode, I'll be talking to Kristina Mänd, an experienced discussion organizer and moderator and a senior expert at the Estonian e-Governance Academy. But also to Ross Allen, the British ambassador to Estonia and a big fan of the festival. And last but not least, I'll talk to Kasper Tammist. He's the leader of the festival, and this year for the last year.
Bart:And I also had some chats with regular visitors hearing their experience why they came here for the first time or why they already followed almost all 12 episodes of this festival. Thanks again for listening and don't forget to subscribe to this podcast for future exciting episodes. Here we go!
Bart:I'm sitting here with Kristina Mänd. We are sitting in two chairs in one of the stages that is about to start in ten minutes. So we have a few minutes. And also before you have to go, I'm very happy. You were just moderating a discussion which was called – it was an Estonian language discussion – in English: From digital protest to cooperation. Can you just briefly say what was the discussion about?
Kristina:Right. The main point was that at the digital era, we often use digital tools to express our opinions, particularly critical opinions or negative opinions. But how to actually turn that citizen courage, that will to say something, the will to protest against something or be for something into something more systematic and institutionalized engagement method that is not just an outburst, but is something that actually benefits the local community where people live. So how you make it from a one time ad hoc thing into a systematic positive, community developing approach called engagement.
Bart:And you are a very experienced discussion organizer, event organizer, moderator. You work as a senior expert at the e-Governance Academy in Estonia. How does it feel to talk about such a subject, here in Paide at the Arvamusfestival?
Kristina:Well, feels great because I was at the birth of Arvamusfestival. I actually volunteered for the very first one. I did an evaluation of how people liked the very first opinion festival. And at that time, I worked at policy studies center Praxis. And one of the things that we noticed already then, more than ten years ago, was that people's ability and will to talk is often contained in, let's say, individual protest or individual talks or individual chats or what we in Estonian call 'köögilaua juttu', kitchen table talks.
Kristina:But how to actually make – and it's sometimes angry. So how do we make it productive? How do we make it so that people come and openly discuss their opinions, approaches, ideas, criticism, feedback, and learn from that talking what others are thinking. Because the whole point is if you're alone, you tend to think that what you think is the right thing. Right?
Kristina:And you're very upset when things don't get get your way. But when we communicate with the others, when we talk to each other, we learn to see other people's point of view. We also hear their worries, their problems, and realize that, 'Oh, maybe the solution, the best solution is not my solution or your solution, but the best solution is the one that solves the problem the best way.' So we learn to appreciate of talking about what is the problem and then learn to talk about what the solutions can be. And I think that Opinion Festival has absolutely done an amazing job in cultivating that culture among the Estonian folks.
Bart:Yeah. Because this is the twelfth episode of the festival. You were there from the beginning.
Kristina:I was there from the very beginning.
Bart:And you were saying, like, what what it does, this festival. How do you think that in a broader scale? Could you say something about how you think that this Arvamusfestival is impacting the Estonian society as a whole, although it's only two days per year?
Kristina:Well, there are different ways of looking at it. I think at an individual level, I like to come here and see people I know. I like to come here and bump into a prime minister or president or a CEO of, I don't know, the biggest IT company. Or into you, or my colleagues and see people also in other atmosphere. It's a very chilled atmosphere, and that's what we need. We're a small country.
Bart:I just saw the the head of the police having a chat with one of the former prime ministers. They didn't wear suits.
Kristina:Because that's not that kind of thing. Right? The second, I think, at organizational level, it helps to show how many different organizations, public sector, private sector, nonprofit sector we have in Estonia who are all, in some way or another, working for the same goal. Even if their methods are different, even if their resource are different, their motivation is different. But this is a place where I can hear from them and learn about that. And at a societal level, I'm not quite sure that you can make a direct link and say because of Arvamusfestival, now the Estonian society has improved.
Kristina:But it's also hard to say that because there is opera in the world, we are all better people. Right? But without opera, we wouldn't be that good people. I'm just saying it because I love opera. But I would say that without Arvamusfestival, we wouldn't have such a regular, institutionalized, positive, value creating method of listening to each other and expressing our opinions and meeting people in a casual way, in two days in August.
Kristina:And I'm sure that plenty of brilliant ideas have actually been born here on the discussion stages. I would say that we would be a poorer society society – I'm stressing that, not a country, but a society, a civil society – without Arvamusfestival.
Bart:And the last question before we are out kicked out because the new discussion is here about to start in a few minutes. What would you say to people listening to this English language podcast that have not been yet to Arvamusfestival? What should they do?
Kristina:What should they do?
Bart:Yeah.
Kristina:Well, if they are in Estonia in August, they could come here because there are plenty of apps that enable you to translate the discussions in Estonian into English, for example. You can also find out if which discussions are in English and and go and listen to them. You can just come and sit and and talk to people here. It's great. I mean, honestly, if you're a foreigner in Estonia, this is the place where you bump into ministers, members of the European parliament, great Estonian writers, musicians, you know, thinkers, journalists.
Kristina:It's just fantastic. And third, learn from Estonian experience. And if you don't have it in your country, try to organize something because it's a great, great, great way to build bridges inside your community and your society.
Bart:Kristina, thank you very much!
Kristina:Thank you, Bart, for your questions, and I'm always happy to do something for Arvamusfestival because it has done a lot of great things for us.
Bart:Hello, Paula. We are standing here next to the old Castle of Paide at the Arvamusfestival. What have brought you here to to visit the festival?
Paula:Hello. For me, it's already the eleventh festival that I visit. I started to come here because I was in the organizing team in the beginning. And I think it's probably my favorite festival in Estonia. So I, more or less every year, come here.
Bart:So you're a festival veteran, almost followed everyone then. And are there, like, this year's episode, specific topics that you're interested in or that you find important for you?
Paula:I visited one discussion about what's the word? It's safety or security, related to the wars and other similar things happening in the world. I think this is a topic that is very relevant at the moment and was very interesting to hear people's opinions on this.
Bart:And are you still planning to go to other discussions? What's on your list?
Paula:To be honest, I don't know yet. I definitely go to a few more discussions, but I haven't picked picked out yet which ones I will.
Bart:Ross Allen, you are the British ambassador to Estonia since 2021, a fourth time veteran here at the Arvamusfestival. What motivates you to be here at the Arvamusfestival in August? Yesterday was a beautiful sunny day. We are sitting on the bench now. There are some drops. What motivates you to be here?
Ross:Yeah. You're right. It is my fourth one. I really really enjoy coming here. It's been a bit different each time. So the first one I came to, I'd only arrived as ambassador a couple of months before in June. And one of my colleagues in the embassy said 'Come to the Opinion Festival because you will meet all the people you need to meet in Estonian society.' So that one I walked around and I had a colleague with me and as we walk around he'd say 'Come and meet this person. Come meet this person over here.'
Ross:And it was just really nice like relaxed environment in which to meet people. So instead of requesting a meeting where I'm wearing a suit and they're wearing a suit and it's a fixed time in their office. Instead you're wandering around you can get a coffee and ice cream, chat to somebody, and then you spot someone else you wanna chat to. So for me as as as a new ambassador, it was a really great way of just meeting a whole load of people who I wanted to meet. And since then, I've been coming each year and doing more and more each time.
Ross:So this year I'm taking part in three different sessions. I took part yesterday in the speed dating for ambassadors, which was a lot of fun. So meet just meeting the Estonian public for quick quick meetings. And then I did a panel this morning in Estonian language with the foreign ministry about protocol and how protocol works in diplomacy.
Ross:And then my final thing is this afternoon on NATO. And Estonia has been twenty years in NATO and we're talking about the future of NATO. So for me it's a mix. Sometimes it's we're on transmit and we're, you know, now giving messages for the UK. But still I also just love the atmosphere here walking around meeting people I know or meeting new people and just make making connections. It's just a fab event, even when it's raining.
Ross:And the topics I think are similar most years. There's lots of like sustainability and health and the work environment, transport. We actually organized a panel I think last year on the whole future of transport. That was really interesting.
Ross:And I just think Estonians are really sort of curious people and thoughtful people. I also really like the rules they have for the discussion here. So you can actually... it's really important to agree to disagree with people respectfully. And the panels where people are disagreeing are much more interesting.
Ross:I think there's nothing worse in life than turning up to a discussion where you have three or four people really vigorously agreeing the whole time. It's much more fun if you have a genuine debate and somebody who has a different view and you learn that that is okay and that maybe maybe if you listen to them, maybe they have a point. Or maybe the solution is halfway between what you thought originally and what they think. So I like the fact they encourage that here and you have people who have different points of view and that's okay.
Ross:And how
Bart:does that differ in some way to what you're used to, like the way how people in UK conduct public discussion?
Ross:So I have a confession to make: I've never been I think to a British version of this. So my main experience is of the Arvamusfestival. But how we do things in general? Maybe I mean, my fear, I guess, in general, like in the world is that we are not good at disagreeing respectfully.
Bart:And one more thing about this that, like, you work as a diplomat, as an ambassador. I heard that you were in a meeting with other ambassadors calling them and saying you have to go to Arvamusfestival exactly for what you pointed out in the beginning.
Ross:That that is true. I remembered we went to a briefing with the currently dean of the diplomatic corps, the Czech ambassador and he organized a briefing with the people who run the Arvamusfestival. And they came and told us all about it. And I was looking around the room and then I realized that quite a lot of my colleagues were new but they had never been to an opinion festival before. And I said to them, I have two messages.
Ross:One is: Go, it's brilliant. If you're new, you'll meet a whole load of people. Like, Yesterday I was walking around I met and saw the interior minister wearing his shorts and a t-shirt because it's the summer holidays. Had a nice chat with him, met some other politicians. I said you will meet everyone and then I said my second message is: Don't go dressed as a diplomat.
Ross:So you don't need to wear a suit. Because I think the first time I came I didn't know that. So I turned up in a suit and a tie and I felt very overdressed. And I learned from that, you know, shorts, t-shirt, whatever you wanna wear or is comfortable. It's a very very informal atmosphere. So I said to them, a go and b, don't dress too smartly. And it's it's nice to see loads of them here. I've seen lots of my other ambassadors in Estonia here, is nice.
Bart:And it also like connects to this point of let's say the atmosphere here in Arvamusfestival. You see families. You see people all from all walks of life. You don't see indeed this very formal maybe there's one or two persons that didn't get the briefing, so to say.
Ross:Yeah.
Bart:Like, from what you've learned about the Estonian society over the past years, how would you say from your perspective that Arvamusfestival, like the role that it plays in the Estonian society? Can you give some some observations there?
Ross:I think first of all you're right about the sort of atmosphere and I love the fact there's a zone for babies and the stuff for kids to do. That is brilliant. During one of the previous ones I brought my family along and that was nice. They had a really nice time.
Ross:Part of the impact on society here from it, I think has to do with the timing. So I think it's really interesting. It's in August. It's at this time of year when I think most Estonians or a lot of Estonians are still on holiday, but in the back of their mind there's this feeling like at some point soon I probably have to go back to work. So I think generally it's timed nicely when people have had a month off or some time off.
Ross:They've been at their summer house or whatever just or overseas whatever they've been doing, and it's a chance to sort of connect in with people. It's still in the summer but when people have yeah. They're thinking, okay, August, you know, back to holidays and then, school starts here September first always. So it's nice. It's a chance to catch up.
Ross:But otherwise, it might be that for two or three months you don't see anybody. And my experience as an ambassador as well is that at the moment, if I'm trying to go and meet government ministers or officials in Tallinn, half of them are on holiday anyway, so I can't. But actually, if I come here, they're all hanging out anyway. And you can have a chat in a much more relaxed way over an ice cream with somebody, like I said, rather than sat in their office. So, yeah. I'm a massive fan of this festival. I think it's brilliant. And hopefully, I'll get to at least one or two more before I have to leave Estonia eventually.
Bart:Thank you very much.
Ross:Thank you so much. I have my sun cream and my umbrella. So I'm fully equipped. Thank thank for the opportunity to chat to you. Thanks.
Bart:Hello, Ivar. We are at the Arvamusfestival. You're visiting. What is your impression of this festival?
Ivar:I am glad that we have something like this. Because it's like a place where if during the whole year, you will select different problems and then put them on the schedule. And to see 'Is this important or necessary for other people now to meet?' And to see that real people are coming to talk about this real problem. Some problems will arise maybe first time in all those years.
Bart:And is there a specific topic that you're interested in, something you want to follow?
Ivar:Yes. I came here for the day to talk about misuse of trust in sports. Misuse of trust in sports and in every different field where children and youth are trying to have best results. Is this in sports. It can be in the music. It can be in different fields. And now the question is that how trainers and teachers and parents are prepared to help their children to reach those goals. And sometimes it can happen that the goal is important for parents or for trainers, but not for for those children.
Bart:And 10,000 people come here to this festival. What kind of feeling does it give you that so many Estonians want to talk about these important subjects?
Ivar:Actually, I'm quite impressed that even such weather as we have today doesn't make any problem for those people. They are here, and they are very optimistic. I didn't met yet anyone with pessimistic attitude.
Bart:Thank you very much. Suur aitäh!
Bart:So Kaspar Tammist, we are sitting here on the bench next to the tower of the Paide Castle, the second day of Arvamusfestival. The day started with a lot of rain, and now the sun is out and everybody's enjoying. With what kind of feeling are you sitting here?
Kaspar:Happy would be the one word. Because, of course, weather changes a lot. If except, like, of course, when you're Estonian, it changes a lot. You know?
Kaspar:You don't wanna even come out when it's raining. Because if there would be a little bit of rain during the festival, that's okay. People find a place to go in shelter. But if rains in the morning, then it's a little bit tougher. But now, of course, the weather is perfect. Yesterday was really good. There was a lot of people in Paida, and I hope a lot of people will come today also.
Bart:Yeah. Because, like, maybe the weather is the one only thing you can not really control as a festival organizer.
Kaspar:Yes. We we can't do this. We have a lot of power, but we can't control the weather. That's the one thing. Yeah. Estonians have the saying that you should put the candles in the church so the weather would be nice. But we have a very good contact with the church here in in Paida. They're hosting many events in the culture program, and we're in good contact with them. So I think this helped a little bit now.
Bart:And Kasper, this is your last year as as festival leader. You are from Paida. You have a strong connection to this place. In your years as festival leader, how have you seen the festival develop, and what have you tried to accomplish?
Kaspar:Well, it has developed a lot. Because when I became the head of the festival, the first two years were actually the COVID years. We had the very harsh limitations how to host the festival. And we were one of few outdoor festivals that actually happened during those COVID years because the restrictions were really hard. But we managed to follow them. The people who came and visited the festival followed them, and everything went very smoothly. But it was super stressful because, you know, the regulations could change overnight, and we had to adapt with them. And the summer was the hardest for the virus anyways. So the change has been huge because during the COVID years, the festival was very small.
Kaspar:We were only inside of the old castle realm here in the small area with nine discussion areas. And, you know, we had to limit the people who were able to participate. But the Opinion Festival, we want to be open for everyone. We want everyone to be able to come. That's why we don't have ticket prices. That's why we don't have limitations of participation.
Kaspar:We have, you know, if yo have some kind of disability, you can still participate in many, many discussions. And we really want to keep developing this, being open for everyone. And this is actually one of the goals that I think I have not achieved so well. We could be much more accessible. But I hope that the next festival leader and the next team will take it more and more further. Of course, some limitations are here because of the area where we are.
Kaspar:It's mostly grass and this gravel that for wheelchairs, it's really hard to move here. But what more has changed, you know, we have if we take example this year, we have 25 discussion area areas. Last two years, we had 20. So we pushed five more. Now we're more, you know, closer here in Valli Mägi too and the stages around here. So I think this is also one thing that has changed.
Bart:Exactly two years ago, we met for the first time. We are sitting here next to the 'infopunkt'. And I was asking if I could speak to someone of the festival. You happened to stand next to me and said: 'Yeah, I can make some time for an interview.' And I'm very grateful for that again, also today. I remember we were talking about also how the festival plays a role in, let's say, helping people to learn what it means to participate in a public discussion. As a speaker, as an organizer, but also as the audience, 10,000 people coming together for two days. How do you see that developing in Estonia? Maybe not only in your years in the festival, but from the beginning, and maybe how can it develop in the future?
Kaspar:Well, I think in the public speaking sphere or where people speak to each other, not through Internet, I think it's very good. I think it's well, you know. People mostly tend to know how to behave. But if you go to social media, then it's I think it's really bad.
Bart:Even in Estonia?
Kaspar:Yeah. Of course. Even in Estonia and I really don't know the solution to this. Because, you know, even if you're not anonymous there and you're with your own name. And you post things that are on social media, I mean, oh, wow. Why do people do things like this? So it's kind of strange. But in public speaking or where people meet with each other, I think the discussion quality has has risen. It is much better.
Bart:You have rules for that as the festival as well?
Kaspar:Yes. We have the respectful discussion convention or the rules that we ask people to follow. We present them out. We speak about those nine commandments as to say that we have.
Bart:Can you give one or two examples?
Kaspar:Well, one, what I would bring out is that you should be short in your criticism. But you should offer solutions. And you should listen before you speak. Which is actually reasonable in every day. You know, those nine nine points, they're not only exclusive for festival. They can be used everywhere and should be used everywhere because then only we can be respectful towards each other too. Because we're all humans here. And we want to be treated well, and we should treat others well too.
Bart:So you say that, even though Estonia is such a digital country and in the whole world, we can connect through our phones, try to have some discussions. Many are are not good. I just follow the discussion about the impact of disinformation. That's a topic that comes back in the Arvamusfestival again. Yeah. And you're saying meeting each other in person is super important.
Kaspar:Yes, of course.
Bart:And maybe the last question: if you look around here, your last year as festival leader, people from all walks of life come here. I was just talking to the British ambassador, and he was also saying that's really, really amazing. Like, what is the kind of feeling that you maybe have in two or five years after you have done this this amazing, but also, like, job that took a lot of time and energy from you?
Kaspar:And a lot of nerves too. But well, mostly, I'm very grateful to everyone, you know. Even meeting with you, I would have never met with you if I would have not been in Arvamusfestival. Or you would have not come here.
Kaspar:And all the other people I've met. With the volunteers we have. I've made so many friends that are, you know, for life. And then so many great people I've met here. And this is the gratefulness of having been able to do this work here and be a part of this amazing journey. Because five years, in one sense, it has been short, but in the other sense, it has been so long time. You know, thinking back to five years from now, it's crazy what we have achieved, what we have done. I think we've tightened the basis of the festival. So I think the future from here looks very bright.
Bart:Thank you very much. And enjoy your last day of the Arvamusfestival in your role as leader.
Kaspar:Thank you so much.
Presenter:I hope we can depart a little bit more assured than we were before. Thank you.