Meredith Brock:
Hi, friends. Thanks for tuning in to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast where we share biblical Truth for any girl in any season. I'm your host, Meredith Brock, and I am here today with my co-host, Kendra LeGrand.
Kendra LeGrand:
Meredith, I'm so excited to be with you today, and we have some fun news to share ... unless you've been taking a break from social media over the last couple of months, then you know we have a book club called Circle 31. It's amazing, and we're really excited to tell you about what we're reading in November. It's Lysa TerKeurst's newest book, I Want to Trust You, but I Don’t, and we're excited to start reading it together.
Meredith Brock:
Yes, we are so pumped about this because we have been walking this message out with Lysa for really over a year now and have gotten up close and personal with this topic of ... drumroll please ... trust. And let me just tell you, as a person who struggles with fighting to be vulnerable, it's not natural for me. This book really is so helpful. But let me tell you something that I have learned through the book, and that is broken trust or trust issues really cannot be overcome outside of relationship because usually the trust that you're struggling with was broken inside of a relationship. And so you really can't read this book alone. It needs to be done and processed in community so you can make real progress.
So that is why you should join Circle 31 for totally free. You're going to sign up for a Grow Group 2, and you are going to be able to work through some of these hard trust issues together. So how amazing would it be, Kendra, to know that during the month of November, thousands of women are processing and growing together as they head into the new year all around their trust issues and really understanding it from a biblical perspective. So go ahead. I'm giving you permission right now, listeners. Pause this episode, and if you aren't already a member of Circle 31 Book Club, go sign up using the link in our show notes. And then you can unpause and come back here and listen to the rest of this.
Kendra LeGrand:
I like that you gave permission to pause. That was really nice of you. Let me tell you a little bit about what's going on in this book club starting in November. Number one, we have three staff members leading Grow Groups, which is a lot of fun, and we have been planning for months what we're going to be doing in these Grow Groups. So that'll be a lot of fun. We have access to a few of Lysa's teaching videos that come from her I Want to Trust You, but I Don’t Bible Study. So we'll be able to hear from Lysa in those. And then we have a virtual event called Beyond the Pages, where Lysa will be with us answering some of your questions, which is going to be a lot of fun.
And so today you'll hear a recent conversation I got to have with Lysa, where I asked her a few questions that are pretty insightful and helpful as we navigate various relationships in our lives. Questions like: When someone goes through a lot of heartache, how do we start to trust God again? How can we trust our own discernment, which is what I struggle with, and know the will of God when we're making a decision? And what are some warning signs or red flags that can tell us if trusting someone again is worth it?
Meredith Brock:
Good stuff, Kendra. So let's not wait any longer. Let's go listen.
Kendra LeGrand:
Well, Lysa, I'm so excited to have a few minutes to talk to you about your newest book, I Want to Trust You, but I Don’t: Moving Forward When You're Skeptical of Others, Afraid of What God Will Allow, and Doubtful of Your Own Discernment. And I'm representing all of the Circle 31 Book Club lovers here in the room. And I'm going to ask you a few questions that we pulled as staff that were excited to start the conversation.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Great. Kendra, anytime with you is a joyful time. I saw this on my calendar, and I was like, "I'm so excited I get to be with Kendra." So I'm as happy to be here as you.
Kendra LeGrand:
Well, thank you. Well, we're going to start off with something a little fun. And so I want you guys to think of an example yourself, but let's talk about trust issues, how they sneak into our everyday life because there's some funny ways that we might struggle with trust. And so do you have an example of those times where you can see like, "Oh, I really do have trust issues." I have an example.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I have a couple of examples, but I'll start with one, and then you can share yours. And then if there's another one —
Kendra LeGrand:
We'll dance, right?
Lysa TerKeurst:
All right. This is going to be a very funny one because I mentioned this in one of our meetings, and no one else had this issue. But when I go to the doctor, I know that they have their degrees framed, and so I look for them, and I really get close and examine to make sure that this looks like a legit thing. It's a legit degree because ... I mean, I've seen shows.
Kendra LeGrand:
I was going to say there's some shows out there where people get away with it.
Lysa TerKeurst:
People have faked it, right?
Kendra LeGrand:
They have.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I don't want someone messing with my medical health that is an imposter.
Kendra LeGrand:
It is a big thing to be pretty lacking of trust.
Lysa TerKeurst:
No, my friends were like, "Lysa, the chances of that actually happening, and the fact that you check to see where their degree is hanging in the office, is disturbing."
Kendra LeGrand:
You don't want to take any chances.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I do not.
Kendra LeGrand:
Right. I think that's funny.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Maybe me mentioning this right now is saving someone's life.
Kendra LeGrand:
There you go. Yes. Yes. We're really doing the work here. I would say for me, mine came up this weekend. I was in the airport, and I kept checking if I had my license and my ticket and my license and my ticket, and I knew I had it every time I checked in my purse; it was always there, but five minutes later I'd be like, "I should double-check I have my license and my ticket." So I don't really trust myself to be responsible.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I do that too.
Kendra LeGrand:
And if a passport's involved, it can really cause a mental —
Lysa TerKeurst:
Absolutely. Recently I have a file, it's a fire-safe file, and there's a file labeled passport. I put my passport in there every time I return home from a trip, but I always have this panic, what if it's not going to be there? So recently I opened it up, and my passport was not in there.
Kendra LeGrand:
It came true.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I was absolutely convinced someone has stolen my passport. Now how someone got into my house and stole my passport, that would make zero sense, but I was convinced of it.
Kendra LeGrand:
You could make up —
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yes. So I canceled that passport.
Kendra LeGrand:
No, you did not.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yes, I did. I did find my passport or renew my passport quickly. I had to delay the trip I was going on. I was going on an international trip to do missions work in Nicaragua. I had to delay it by five days. And then the day before it came, I was like, "This is so aggravating. What happened to my passport?" I opened up the file. I had stuck it in there, but I had stuck it outside of the folder, and it had fallen into the bottom of the safe. So when I just pulled out the file folder, it wasn't there, but all along it was in the safe.
Kendra LeGrand:
It was there. Son of a gun.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I know. I know.
Kendra LeGrand:
It makes for a good story, but stressful story as well. So stressful. Now you have two. One a little outdated and one perfect.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I know.
Kendra LeGrand:
All right, so let's turn our attention to a little more serious tone of trust issues because you wrote a whole book about what that looks like in our life, what it looks like to trust God and other people. And so I want to tell you a little bit about something that happened to me a few years ago that really caused me to trust or doubt God and His goodness. So a few years ago, my husband and I walked through a miscarriage. And when we walked through that, I remember questioning God, "Well, what if I can't get pregnant? Is God's plan still good even if I can't have children? What does this look like for our future?"
And so I want to ask you, when someone goes through heartache, whether it's a miscarriage, whether it's an ending of a relationship, whatever that looks like, how do we start to trust God again when our life doesn't look like what we thought it would?
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's such a good question. I have not walked through a miscarriage, and so my heart grieves alongside of you though with other losses that I've experienced. But I walked through a very messy, unwanted divorce, and it really caused me not to just feel betrayed by my ex-husband, but also, when I sat with it knowing that God saw all that was happening and He didn't stop it before it became catastrophic, it caused me so much wrestling, so much pain. And I do remember thinking, This is the worst betrayal because I really feel almost betrayed by God. But as I'm farther removed from it now and I can look back, some of my perspectives have changed.
A lot of my perspectives have changed because I do see now that often what happens to me is [that] something bad will happen, and then I like to write out the script of what a good God should do in the future to make this all understandable and OK. And so I pursue that outcome of my own thinking. I pursue it as if it is really God's plan. And then I want to hold God accountable to the way I think a good God should act in this situation. The problem with that is God often does different, but different doesn't mean good; it just means different. And here I am all these years removed and I'm so thankful God didn't follow my plan.
So many of the suggestions that I made, though they seemed really good at the time and they were understandable suggestions, if God had taken me ... Hey, if God had followed my plan, I know I would never be living the life I'm living now. And God's version of working things out for good is so much better than I could have ever thought. It's still different. It really is still different, and different can sometimes still cause some grief. But different is good, and I am pursuing and living the good of different and so grateful now. I'm not grateful that the heartbreak happened. I'm grateful for how good God is even when I don't understand it.
Kendra LeGrand:
And what do you say to the person who wants to grow their trust in God? Maybe it is different, and different does look good, but it's still hard. What are some practical ways to start trusting God?
Lysa TerKeurst:
I would say sometimes it's harder to trust God with what you're facing right now and looking toward the future. It's hard to walk toward a future you think you don't want, right?
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And so I would say a first good step is to look behind and consider what God has done in the past. See how God put unlikely people in your path and unlikely parts of the puzzle, how He wove them together to get to a certain point of good that you are glad. This little area of my life I'm so glad about and look at all God did and look at the faithfulness of God. Look at the goodness of God. And it led me to this point. And so tracing God's hand of faithfulness behind us is sometimes easier than trying to figure out what's ahead of us. I'm convinced our life would be so much more peaceful if we were absolutely convinced of the goodness of God.
And I've asked myself this question; I've asked other people this question too: What would change about your life if you really believed in the goodness of God? What perspectives could you write or what anticipations could be joyful if you absolutely believed in the goodness of God?
Kendra LeGrand:
I remember when you asked our staff that question. You gave a devotion in staff meeting, and then I went home, and I wrote it on my little board because I wanted to just really think about that question and really ponder it and linger with it because it was such a simple question, but yet there's so much tied to it. If you really do believe in the goodness of God, how would your life be?
Lysa TerKeurst:
Absolutely. And I started going through the Bible and finding all kinds of Bible verses about the goodness of God. And then I loaded up my song worship list full of songs declaring the goodness of God. And I know that that can sound like, "Oh, nice hyperspiritual answer," right? But it did start to shiver something inside of me that when I'm reminded of the truth and I'm reading the truth and I can recall the truth of the goodness of God, even when my circumstances aren't good or even have a praise song that's at the top of my mind and that the words and the lyrics and the meaning behind it can kind of interrupt some of my negative thought patterns questioning if God is good.
When that happens, I just think it really does start to change and shift and get your heart back to a place ... I believe this: Even if I don't see evidence of my circumstances turning good, I know God is good, and God is good to me. And even most importantly, God is good at being God.
Kendra LeGrand:
Such a good reminder. Another thing that you write about in your book is all about discernment. And I remember you saying ... I read it in your book, and I remember you also saying that you felt like you had really good discernment back in the day, years ago when you really trusted your gut and whatnot. And then some things happened to where you became skeptical of your own discernment and choices. And so how can we trust our own discernment when we prayed about something and we really sought the Lord's guidance on a choice, and then we realized that that was the wrong choice? How can we trust our ability to hear and listen when those things happen?
Lysa TerKeurst:
Well, first of all, the thing with discernment ... discernment gives us an indication that maybe something is off or something is unwise. But discernment doesn't give details, which is tough sometimes.
Kendra LeGrand:
You want the details.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Sometimes our discernment is right in that warning feeling, but we get the details wrong, and of course we do! So I say, “Give yourself a lot of grace.” And I remember really beating myself up because before I found out about my ex-husband's infidelity, I saw red flags, but my mind would say, "That's a red flag." But then my heart that so desperately believed in this person, that so desperately wanted the relationship to stay intact and the family to stay intact, my heart would override a warning signal my mind was giving me, right?
And so I really beat myself up a lot when I felt like, "Wow, my discernment failed me because I should have picked up on this sooner. I should have known what was going on." But my counselor gave me something that really helped me a lot. Jim Cress ... he's awesome.
Kendra LeGrand:
He is pretty great.
Lysa TerKeurst:
But he said, "Lysa, when you know better, you do better. And of course, as a wife, married to the same person for almost 30 years, of course you wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. Of course, you wanted to believe the best.” But I think now inside the book I Want to Trust You, but I Don’t, I dive much deeper into the roots of distrust and the red flags to help us see it is not bad. Even in a terrific relationship, if we sense a red flag, it's not bad to have a conversation, but we must get curious, not furious, right?
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes.
Lysa TerKeurst:
We must be curious about something that we're seeing, especially if it's not just a one-off mistake. If it's a repeated pattern, then a good relationship allows for conversations of clarity. Sometimes clarity is just a conversation away, and sometimes it is a legitimate red flag. And so I unpack many different red flags, the behavior that somebody could be demonstrating why this could be a root of distrust and how serious this is.
Kendra LeGrand:
That's so good. You mentioned red flags, and one of the things that you are so brilliant at doing and your team is so good is giving practical help for people in the book of here are warning signs to look for. Or sometimes you do graphs or stories, and you're so good at laying out practicality. But red flags ... when does it make sense to start the process of rebuilding trust with someone? And then when are the red flags big enough to where it's not worth it to trust them anymore?
Lysa TerKeurst:
So this is a big question.
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And you really need to dive into the book to get all the nuances.
Kendra LeGrand:
They're so good.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Thank you.
Kendra LeGrand:
So good.
Lysa TerKeurst:
But here's what I would say. Number one indication that it might be safe to consider rebuilding trust with someone when it's been broken ... The first thing is when you approach them about this: Is there a willingness to listen? Is there kindness? Is there gentleness, or is there defensiveness? Is there blaming you? Are there accusations that you're crazy? So number one sign is their reaction to it. The second big sign is: Are they willing to fully disclose what the circumstances were? Now, you may not need every detail, right? But a full disclosure does something. It gets all the pieces out on the table so that you can see what you're really dealing with.
Because if you know someone ... let's take my example. When I found out that there was unfaithfulness, I didn't get a full disclosure. And so new details kept leaking into my life, and more discoveries started leaking into my life. And you cannot build trust that keeps getting broken. So discovering more and more and more hard things, it's going to make it really tough to repair that trust. Whereas if there's a humility and a full disclosure, that often means that the person is in a posture to really want to be humble enough and gentle enough to consider the repair process.
Kendra LeGrand:
That's so good. And you saying this leads into our last question in our time together, but people who break our trust do not have the power to break apart God's good plan for our lives, which is so encouraging and so good. I'll read it one more time in case you're taking notes: People who break our trust do not have the power to break apart God's good plans for our lives. So as we wrap up, how do we hold on to this hope when it feels so far from the truth sometimes?
Lysa TerKeurst:
Well broken trust ... it will be life-altering, but it doesn't have to be life-ruining. And I think as long as we make the decision that the actions of that other person [are something] we cannot control. We couldn't control it before, we can't control it in the moment, and we can't control what they do in the future. And sometimes what we don't trust, we try to control.
Kendra LeGrand:
I love controlling things or trying to, I should say.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Because our brains are wired for the confidence of knowing we want to return back to a place of safety. The fabric of trust is made up of safety and connection. Those two things must come into equilibrium. We want connections that are safe. So the big question is: As I walk into the future, how do I set myself up for success by stepping into wise trust and not blind trust? And I think the exercises, the questions, all of the checklist that you can put yourself through in I Want to Trust You, but I Don’t will really lead you to a place of wise trust. I think sometimes, as Christians, we're taught because we're supposed to love other people, that we also should trust them unconditionally.
The Bible actually does not say that. There's a word that you can find in the original language of the Bible that means trust and it's bata. And how bata is used depends on the object that it's referring to. Interesting. When bata is used speaking of the trustworthiness of God, it's always in a positive sense. When bata is used talking about the trustworthiness of people or even things like possessions, successes, all of that stuff, it's almost always in a negative sense. Now, I don't say that to say there are no trustworthy people in this world, but what I do say is it is OK for us to have conditions on our trust.
Because in order to have trust, we already talked about safety and connection, but also that's the fabric of trust. But how does trust play out when you are skeptical of others? Trust is time plus believable behavior, which leads to a proven track record. So it will take time. It will take seeing believable behavior in that other person over and over and over and a new track record of, "OK, that person has proven themselves trustworthy over and over and over and over. That, yes, it is wise for me to trust that person." Blind trust would be seeing red flags and just hoping for the best. And recognizing that distrust sometimes is the wisest choice we can make.
So I just want to relieve someone out there, you're dealing with a person who has broken your trust over and over and over, and you feel guilty for not trusting them. And I would say to you, “Of course, you don't trust them. Of course.” I think the book will really help us know that difference between wise trust and blind trust and feel a lot more equipped to make wise decisions in the relationships that we have. All relationships are risky, and so we cannot escape risk in relationship. Even in the best of relationships, you have the risk of potentially getting hurt. So we can't eliminate all risk, but we can equip ourselves to be stable in the midst of the risk that we do take and take the right kind of risk in relationships.
Kendra LeGrand:
That's so good. And I know there's so much more where that came from in your new book, and we're excited to read it together in Circle 31. And so, Lysa, thank you so much for talking with us today. You're the best, filled with wisdom, and we look forward to reading more from you.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Absolutely. Thanks, Kendra.
Meredith Brock:
Wow, what a great conversation! It honestly makes me wish that it was already November 1 and we could start reading the book with our Circle 31 Book Club friends right now. But since it's not November 1 right now, there is still plenty of time for you to join us. So, Kendra, will you remind our friends how exactly do they join us?
Kendra LeGrand:
Yes, I would love to. So first, go to our show notes or visit circle31.org to sign up for our free book club. You'll get access to our online book club community, which is where all the magic and growth happens. Then go purchase your book I Want to Trust You, but I Don’t, if you haven't already. You can also use the link in our show notes to do that, or go to p31bookstore.com. The Proverbs 31 Ministries version we sell in our bookstore is exclusive and includes a resource in the back of the book that you literally can't get anywhere else. And it's called “3 Steps To Release Skepticism and Try Trusting Again.”
Meredith Brock:
Good stuff. So thanks for joining us on the show today. And, friends, thanks for listening. At Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it really changes everything.