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You Must Be Some Kind of Therapist intimately explores the human experience while critiquing the state of the counseling profession as it yields to cultural madness. Your host, Stephanie Winn, distills years of wisdom gained from her practice as a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist as she pivots away from treating patients, and toward the question of how to apply psychology to the novel dilemmas of the 21st century. What does ethical mental health care look like in a normless age, as our moral compasses spin in search of true north? How can therapists treat patients under pressure to affirm everything from the notion of gender identity to assisted suicide? Stephanie invites heretical, free-thinking guests from many walks of life, including current and former therapists, medical professionals, writers, researchers, and people with unique lived experience, such as detransitioners. Curious about many things, Stephanie’s interdisciplinary psychological lens investigates challenging social issues and inspires transformation in the self, relationships, and society. Pick up a torch to illuminate the dark night and join us on this journey through the inner wilderness.
*ISSUES LISTENING ON SPOTIFY* - If you notice some episodes missing from Spotify, you can find them on any other platform. New episodes are released every Monday, and all are present in numerical order, so you should always see an episode that has been released within the past week, followed by episodes in descending numerical order without any missing numbers. Spotify has a backwards and archaic system for flagging copyrighted content for removal. This podcast has a license to use its theme song, Half Awake by Joey Pecoraro, but Spotify's system keeps removing it anyway, and demands that podcast creators manually appeal the removal for every episode. This is obviously ridiculous. Spotify needs to get it together.
186. Jonathan Cogburn
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[00:00:00] Jonathan: I just wanna make the case that there are levels of intensity of mental health intervention that are totally appropriate for schools and that in the current environment are necessary, if not indispensable, because there's legislation that [00:00:15] is holding them in place. Or it may be because there are certain subgroups of students who that's like the only mental health support they're receiving.
[00:00:24] Jonathan: You must be some kind of therapist.
[00:00:29] Stephanie: My [00:00:30] guest today is Jonathan Cogburn, again, welcoming back to the show. He's a licensed marriage and family therapist in Texas who you might recognize from a recent episode. Uh, number 180. After Charlie Kirk, uh, which was about moral courage [00:00:45] and in welcoming back Jonathan for part two, because last time we spoke, which was not too long ago, he had mentioned that he has thoughts and professional experience in the realm of school, mental health services and [00:01:00] thoughts on preventing school shootings.
[00:01:02] Stephanie: And I think it'll be interesting to get a conservative perspective on this issue as, as Jonathan is a conservative given the amount of debate we've had on this podcast about the, all the downsides [00:01:15] of mental health services in schools and some of the ways that school counselors have let down and alarmed parents through some of their behaviors.
[00:01:22] Stephanie: So really glad to have Jonathan's expertise on that topic today. Jonathan, welcome back. Good to see you.
[00:01:27] Jonathan: Thank you Stephanie. I'm really glad to get to come [00:01:30] and, and chat about this topic. This is the area that I work in full-time and um, and essentially I just wanna make the case that there are levels of intensity of mental health intervention that are, are totally appropriate for [00:01:45] schools and that in the current environment are pretty ne necessary, if not indispensable.
[00:01:52] Jonathan: And that they may be indispensable because there's legislation that is kind of holding them in place that [00:02:00] schools are required to maintain compliance about. They have to demonstrate records as such that they are, you know, having programs implemented with some kind of fidelity. Um, or it may be because there are certain, like subgroups of, of students [00:02:15] who that's like the only mental health support they're receiving, um, because of their life situation.
[00:02:21] Jonathan: We'll talk, we'll talk, I'm gonna tell you all about, uh, your audience about McKinney-Vento law and McKinney-Vento students today, curiosity. Have you ever heard that term before? [00:02:30]
[00:02:30] Stephanie: McKenney Bento? No. Mm-hmm.
[00:02:32] Jonathan: See, this is almost all therapists out there that i, I run into. So, we'll, we'll get to that in, in, in just a little bit.
[00:02:39] Jonathan: I'm sure that's a, that's an important, very important topic. I think it's something that therapists should have more awareness of. [00:02:45]
[00:02:45] Stephanie: Okay. What, what is McKenney Bento?
[00:02:47] Jonathan: So, McKinney-Vento refers to the McKinney-Vento Act, uh, which was passed in 1987, and it has been ki kind of renewed or forwarded in subsequent legislation [00:03:00] since then.
[00:03:01] Jonathan: The, the No Child Left Behind Act picked it up. The Every Student Succeeds Act picked it up. So these more recent, like large chunks of legislation, federal legislation that govern education picked it up now. So [00:03:15] McKinney-Vento Act we, we use the term McKinney-Vento students to refer to those students that meet the educational definition of homelessness.
[00:03:23] Jonathan: And this, this may sound kind of strange, like, why do we need an educational definition? And [00:03:30] the long story short of that is the, the living, various living situations that students find themselves living in. They, they may have like a roof over their head, but it may not be adequate support, um, or an adequate living situation, adequate [00:03:45] stability.
[00:03:46] Jonathan: For them to be able to perform in their you know, in their academic development really well. And so the, the definition of homelessness is actually wider for McKinney-Vento students than it is for the HUD [00:04:00] definitions of homelessness. So, for example if, let's say I were to lose my job and couldn't pay my rent anymore, and I move in with my brother on like, on his lease or in his [00:04:15] home but I do not have any legal resource or sorry, recourse if say we have a contentious relationship and he decides he wants to kick me out and my kid's with me, and then we're just loose out on the street [00:04:30] there.
[00:04:30] Jonathan: So in the educational definition of homelessness, the term to describe that situation is doubled up. I would be doubled up with my brother. We'd have two families under a single roof, and I don't have any legal tie or any protection allowing me [00:04:45] to, to remain there. So there's, there's, um, it's kind of a borderline instability idea there.
[00:04:51] Jonathan: Um, and, and add to that, you know, you get two families living under a single roof, then the physical space may not be adequate [00:05:00] for me to be able to do things like work on projects and homework in the home. And I mean, we've seen plenty of families who, you know, had two, you know, two households living in a, in a rv, you know, like a 20 or 30 foot [00:05:15] RV stacked up.
[00:05:16] Jonathan: And I mean, that is, you know, that's a really hard situation to go home to and then do homework and then be able to have clean clothes. You know, just being able to, to have all the. The same resources [00:05:30] as your peers who, you know, live in a single family dwelling with their parents. There is a term in McKinney Ventil law that a lot of people have heard out there, which is unaccompanied youth.
[00:05:42] Jonathan: We've heard that term in the news a lot in reference [00:05:45] to, um, migrant children, immigrant children. I'm using the term migrant because that's the federal education code term, not for a any political reason there. But we we, so we see unaccompanied youth. Are those. My, um, [00:06:00] my best friend, uh, one of my best friends in high school was an unaccompanied youth and would've qualified for identification as a homeless student under McKinney Bento law.
[00:06:10] Jonathan: I had no idea what that term was back then. But he, he got kicked out of his house [00:06:15] when he was eight 18. And you, he, so in that situation, the idea is, you know, you, you typically need like a parent. To help you with things like faf FAFSA application and you may need your parents to kind of co-sign on some things to get you [00:06:30] going in your college education.
[00:06:33] Jonathan: And so there are some additional barriers to you being able to proceed your educationally or post-secondary educational career if you, if you don't have a parent there by your side. And [00:06:45] so it, there are some, some legal exemptions, some. So the, so for example, if, if Luke had been identified and had gotten the help of the school district, uh, McKinney Vento liaison, by the way, every school district in the nation [00:07:00] is required to have a McKinney vent liaison whose responsibility it is to assign that identification within the student's permanent record in whatever system the school uses to, to do their record [00:07:15] keeping.
[00:07:15] Jonathan: And in that way, the, then the student can receive some of these exemptions, like an exemption letter to the Texas Department of Public Safety when you're 16, to be able to go and get a driver's license without a primary legal guardian [00:07:30] signing for you to be able to get that. So so there, to me, this is an important topic to mention because it's a, a whole arena of support that most mental health professionals haven't even heard of.
[00:07:43] Jonathan: But if I could [00:07:45] give kind of one, you know, one request to, to your listening audience, it would be, you know, if you, if you work a lot around a school district, it'd be to find out who the McKinney-Vento liaison is and you know, if you have a sense that like, [00:08:00] okay, this student's living situation changes and they're doubled up now.
[00:08:03] Jonathan: Or, you know, this student's now couch surfing. In someone else's house. If the mental health professional, sometimes the mental health professional can be very important in getting [00:08:15] that identification made because the school may not have picked up yet on the student's living situation changing, and we would just want them to be able to access any of those supports through the district, then that would be possible.
[00:08:28] Jonathan: And, and, you know, this [00:08:30] won't be any surprise to you, um, or anybody listening that when, when somebody finds themself in that living situation, they're very often guarded about it because there's, you know, guilt or potential shame kind of tied up in that. And [00:08:45] so that they, the school district liaison can use all the help she can get, usually to be able to track down and find who these kids are.
[00:08:54] Jonathan: And in the, I I'll add one more note and I don't, you may have some questions or thoughts or something. I don't wanna hog the mic the [00:09:00] whole time on that, but the. The, the school district liaisons where I work, we have one who's full-time in the liaison job, and that's the, the one he works for Abilene, [00:09:15] ISD out here in West Texas.
[00:09:16] Jonathan: And so it's our largest district. It's a five a district. The rest of our districts out in this area are are very small and rural. And so those liaisons are usually like the school counselor and they're the [00:09:30] state testing coordinator and they might be the GT testing coordinator. And they may be the director of other federal programs.
[00:09:37] Jonathan: So this is like the fifth or sixth job title they have. And it's very hard for them to keep track of, you know, juggling all those [00:09:45] plates that they tend to have in those small school settings. So so, you know, think of, think of ourselves as mental health professionals as potential. Members of the team to help get these kids appropriately, like [00:10:00] labeled in the records and and access to some more help and support.
[00:10:04] Stephanie: So that's one good reason for there to be some level of mental health services in schools, just to have an eye out for those kids who are truly [00:10:15] at risk. These kids are in unstable living situations. You gave a good example there by distinguishing sort of the common understanding of homelessness as literally not having a roof over your head from the definition in the [00:10:30] school system, which I think does sound more appropriate for the sake of protecting and providing for students in unstable situations.
[00:10:39] Stephanie: And I think you're right to point out that those students would typically feel shame [00:10:45] about their living situation or perhaps try to hide it for the sake of their. Family as well. And just to give an example, 'cause I, I grew up with my mom teaching in a very poor part of downtown LA [00:11:00] where most of her students were first and second generation Mexican immigrants with, um, you know, typically two or three families to an apartment building.
[00:11:10] Stephanie: Um, yeah, so I, I know just what you're talking about there. And [00:11:15] so that's, that's I think a good place to start. Uh, and in that context, you're framing these school counselors as not so much providing mental health services to students, but as more in a [00:11:30] social work role more, um, a liaison, a bridge.
[00:11:34] Jonathan: Exactly. Um, and those, those liaisons are, they're often helping the students access. Commun other community services and some, something [00:11:45] else I didn't mention before. That's kind of an important piece of this. So every school gets a certain amount of designated McKinney-Vento funding that can be used.
[00:11:55] Jonathan: Let's say the, the student needs school supplies. [00:12:00] Well, if that student's identified, then some of that funding can be tapped into to buy school supplies that are required for those individual students. Uh, they had to leave their previous living situation in a hurry and they don't have any clothing.
[00:12:12] Jonathan: Well, so some of those funds could be used to help [00:12:15] purchase emergency clothing or emergency food. When, when American Rescue Plan was in full effect we, I, I, I don't want to go back to having that amount of money, by the way, because it was honestly more money than we could figure out how to spend.
[00:12:28] Jonathan: We had, we had lots and lots of [00:12:30] money. Um. In the McKinney Vito program that, that I'm a part of. And so just for your, for your listeners benefit, so I work for an agency that serves about 40 school districts. And so my job is to, to [00:12:45] train the McKinney Vito liaisons in how to properly identify what are the characteristics or conditions that result in identifying a student who's homeless, and then what are the supports that are available to them in the way that we're talking about.
[00:12:58] Jonathan: And then, and then just helping [00:13:00] their program to function, like providing them with template documents and things like that to, to take some of the extra burden of just figuring out the job off of them when, you know, that's their fifth or sixth. Extra job title and I love that. Uh, my job is, is, [00:13:15] is wonderful because the, these, it's, I, my kind of central mission in my head is to always make things more streamlined or, or easier for, or attainable for the school folks that are pretty overworked in most cases, and especially [00:13:30] in these little bitty towns.
[00:13:31] Jonathan: So but from that agency setting, you know, we, we got a huge chunk of, of funding and so we were doing things like buying bunches and bunches of books. I think we bought 6,000 [00:13:45] books each summer over the two summers that we had that, that funding. And we handed those books out with a backpack in, in a backpack to how many, I think over a, about [00:14:00] 1500 students got books for the summer so that they had books at home.
[00:14:05] Jonathan: They could read. Oh, here's a, here's a fun one. This is one we've actually be been able to continue. This last week we had our student leadership summit [00:14:15] for our entire region for those students. And so what we do is we give the district liaisons a an a a template invitation that just says, Hey, you've been nominated to attend this leadership summit.
[00:14:29] Jonathan: We think you would [00:14:30] be a good candidate to come and learn and hear from a guest speaker. And and, you know, just spend a day getting kind of, kind of pumped up. And so we had 80 students from across the region come last week and we brought in do you know the, do [00:14:45] you know the movie Freedom Writers?
[00:14:47] Jonathan: No. Okay. So this is a, um, this is a movie that came out early two thousands and Hillary Swank plays Aaron Rell, who was the, the teacher, the real life teacher that the film is. It's kind of about as the [00:15:00] central character. We've, we've had Erin come and, and talk at our agency twice so far, but we had a couple of her original students come and serve as the keynote speakers for this last week, you know, and those are you know, grown men now [00:15:15] who have kind of like made their way in life, but credit where they are to, to the, the support they got in her classroom.
[00:15:24] Jonathan: You know, so just like kind of success stories of overcoming it was really, really cool. [00:15:30] Nike donated a pair of Nike dunks for every student that came, which is freaking amazing. So they left for a campus tour. We took 'em to a technical college. That's like, um, they have 18 month [00:15:45] programs in a lot of different areas like electrician, EMT wind, some wind farm stuff, aviation, maintenance programs.
[00:15:52] Jonathan: So they went and toured all that stuff and while they were gone, we made little pyramid stacks of Nike dunks across the front of the room. And, uh, they [00:16:00] got to come in and, um, we just called their names and they got to come up and grab their shoes. Chick-fil-A donated box lunches for us. So just, just amazing.
[00:16:08] Jonathan: I just love stories of kindness and generosity like that. And I will tell you, I was skeptical about what [00:16:15] the impact of an event like that would be. You know, as a therapist, I'm like, okay, like a one-off event like this, eh but I was wrong. I'm happy to say I, I was, I was underestimating the potential impact, um, because we've had [00:16:30] students go on to make connections with those speakers and, and go on to some post-secondary opportunities that they might not have otherwise.
[00:16:38] Jonathan: Um, we've been able to get scholarship help for a lot of them, and they've gone through some scholarship coaching. One of the [00:16:45] coolest things. That I've heard and I've heard more than once from the district liaisons is, you know, these two kids never really hung out before, but they rode the, in, in this suburban, you know, to the event and after.
[00:16:57] Jonathan: And they have remained like best friends [00:17:00] ever since then. It's just like widening the social circles of some of these kids and, and those are effects I wouldn't have predicted. And, and add to that, that, you know, a lot of these kids are, you know, they're in little bitty towns, you know, like, like 200 people, 500 [00:17:15] people, a thousand, 1500 people in the town total.
[00:17:18] Jonathan: And they, they barely leave, you know, they're little bitty towns. They're, you know, an hour, hour and a half away from the nearest city, which is, you know, not a big city by a lot of standards. It's about [00:17:30] 130,000 people right in the Abilene area. Um, and Abilene may be the only big city they've ever been to.
[00:17:37] Jonathan: So it's like a, it's like a first in a lifetime experience for some of 'em. It's really cool. It's, it's a, it's a, a big [00:17:45] undertaking every year, but it ends up being worth it every single time. So I really love that. Oh gosh. And then, so I might, I might segue this and just jump into talking a little bit about A MHP because, um, that's a Association of [00:18:00] Mental Health Professionals Conference.
[00:18:01] Jonathan: I was like a holdout for the LA till the last minute about whether I was gonna go or not, because our summit was on last Wednesday. And I was like, oh gosh. And I had to drive into A MHP then after the [00:18:15] after our homeless students summit. So it was a pretty wild day quite a long day of getting up and being there at the college before seven, and then and then spending all the day, and then it's about a three hour drive over to Carrollton, Texas for me, which is not, not terrible.
[00:18:29] Jonathan: But, [00:18:30] but, you know, would've would've preferred it on a calmer day. So, but the I just wanted to give a quick shout out, and I think you said you're gonna be interviewing Kathleen pretty soon who's kind of the, the central figure in the Association of Mental Health [00:18:45] Professionals. She's kind of the, the mastermind behind it, but her partner Philip is is a great host, a great mc as well.
[00:18:52] Jonathan: And so we had two days worth of sessions and a lot of them were on kind of like natural, the [00:19:00] overlap between natural medicine and therapy, potentially. A lot of research on how particular treatments can affect neurotransmitters or, or you know, blood levels of minerals and how that influences mental health.
[00:19:14] Jonathan: And, you know, this [00:19:15] is not something I've studied a whole lot. It's very interesting. And we also had a dinner, with with, uh, Pisha Mosley as one of the, the panel speakers. And that was just really, really [00:19:30] powerful to hear her talk about some of, of what she went through, um, and how she sees it now.
[00:19:37] Jonathan: And I messaged her on, on X after I got home and I just told her, Hey, you said something that [00:19:45] stuck with me that I, it I'm gonna think about for a long time. And I'm not gonna get her exact quote right, but she said something to the effect of I don't like the term detransition. It's kind of a misnomer.
[00:19:59] Jonathan: There can't be [00:20:00] detransition when there was no transition to begin with. And so I think she was kind of arguing for a, a reframing of language that I think is a scientifically accurate reframing. And, but that's, you know, [00:20:15] detransition is the term we have right now. Uh, but I, I was just like, man, that is such powerful such a powerful thought.
[00:20:24] Jonathan: And you know, at, at testimony to the fact that we just get into using terms and then we don't [00:20:30] question 'em after a while. They just become our normal terms, but we don't think about the underlying meaning behind those things. So, um, anyway, so I would put in a shout out for A MHP, the A MHP conference.
[00:20:41] Jonathan: They're tentatively scheduled for October 1st and second [00:20:45] next year. And I believe Kathleen said she'll tell you when she comes on, but I believe she said that, that the tickets come, will come up for for sale in February for that. So that's what I'm remembering off the top of my head. But especially if you're a conservative if you're, if you're, you know, [00:21:00] more in the moderate territory, I have no doubt that you would be welcome.
[00:21:02] Jonathan: But, you know, just full disclosure, you're gonna have a lot of of old conservative people like Soad tab running up to you and giving you lots of hugs while you're there. Uh, but I, it [00:21:15] was so, it was so nice to just I was, I was sitting there at the end of the conference and I was thinking about the last mental health events I've been to and how it's, there's just been a feeling of a wet, kind of a wet blanket on [00:21:30] me of like, I can't really say what I actually believe out loud here.
[00:21:35] Jonathan: You know, say at, at some of those legacy organization events. And, you know, it's just, you know, [00:21:45] I won't say that was like torturous or anything, but it is kind of sad. Uh, but it was so nice at A MHP because I could just, I could say whatever I thought or believed and not have to worry about. You know, anybody taking it the wrong way?
[00:21:58] Jonathan: No, no eggshells. [00:22:00] Were on the floor.
[00:22:01] Stephanie: Well, I had a similar experience recently at Gen Spec. I'm very glad I went to the Gen Spec conference. I wasn't able to make it, as you know, to A MHP this year. Um, I do have it on my radar for next year, and listeners can look forward to my interview [00:22:15] coming soon with Kathleen Mills from the Association for Mental Health Professionals.
[00:22:19] Stephanie: I might also be running some ads on my show for them just to promote awareness that this is an organization you can join. But it was, it was such an experience being at Gens [00:22:30] Spec and, you know, maybe 200 people that I'd known online or who knew me, you know, and, and meeting everyone in two back to back 16 hour days.
[00:22:42] Stephanie: It was wild. And I still, I. [00:22:45] I still haven't, um, you know, it took me a while to settle afterward and I still need to go through my notes from the conference and reach out to all the people I met or heard speak, who I intended to have on the show. I mean, there's probably like 20 people who've been [00:23:00] on the show already who are at the conference.
[00:23:03] Stephanie: But to go back to the topic of school services I mean, you've made a strong case for something that I think is hard to disagree with and very much in harmony [00:23:15] with American values, with Western and Christian values. It's this idea that we're looking out for the most vulnerable members in our society, students, their children, and trying to give them a better future.
[00:23:28] Stephanie: Trying to not [00:23:30] let the unfortunate circumstances of whatever Ill fate has befalling their family to interfere with their ability to learn valuable skills and have the resources that they need in order to make [00:23:45] good choices. And like I said, it's more kind of a social worky role that I'm hearing here and I'm listening.
[00:23:55] Stephanie: Though more broadly to the subject of school mental health services thinking. Okay. [00:24:00] So I think a lot of people could agree that it, it's good that we have these liaisons in schools who are looking out for students with unstable housing and making sure that they're connected to [00:24:15] resources. And of course all who work with children, like teachers, for instance, are also mandated Reporters, just like therapists and doctors are mandated reporters.
[00:24:24] Stephanie: So if we know that actual abuse or neglect is occurring, there's a duty to involve professional [00:24:30] services. Now we can debate how those services are delivered. Like for instance, in Oregon I have. I have called CPS about homeless families, and [00:24:45] they say, well, it's not a crime to be homeless. And so I'm seeing these, you know, young children out panhandling with their mom on a dangerous corner.
[00:24:53] Stephanie: And CPS doesn't investigate. But if you were to call a a middle [00:25:00] class, if you were to call about a middle class family that provides their kids with housing and food and security, and say, the mom is refusing to affirm this child's gender identity, well, CPS might get involved [00:25:15] in that case. So there's the concept of mandated reporting as an ideal element of safeguarding, and then there's the reality of how these institutions have been captured.
[00:25:29] Stephanie: But I do wanna [00:25:30] pivot to. The provision of mental health services, because I think that's something that I've questioned a lot on this podcast. I've had several guests who are very critical of it, and I say this as someone whose first internship as [00:25:45] a therapist was in a school setting. I've also explained that maybe I have a bias against that because my internship was not run well.
[00:25:55] Stephanie: Um, I've mentioned, I can't remember on which episode or to which guest, but I mentioned that [00:26:00] the person in charge of that program at the time didn't really have a lot of patience for working with brand new therapist students like myself, and, uh, tried to get me to I, I don't know if what she wanted me to [00:26:15] do was illegal or just unethical, but it certainly would've gotten me in trouble if I'd.
[00:26:19] Stephanie: Done it, which was to have a non-licensed professional sign off on my hours or no, for, for the, a [00:26:30] non-licensed professional with training that didn't meet our state's criteria to be the one to provide my supervision and then have the social worker in charge of the program sign off on the hours that the other person had supervised.
[00:26:43] Stephanie: So they tried to get me to [00:26:45] cheat essentially so that they could work with their limited budget and resources and volunteers. And when I was like I don't think that's how this is supposed to work, they were upset with me. So, and that was my experience back when I was a [00:27:00] baby therapist. And you know, I can look back on my first few jobs and how under-resourced and undertrained we all were, and I can make.
[00:27:10] Stephanie: That argument that if you are gonna have services in [00:27:15] schools, they should certainly be better run than the services that I personally experienced. But more broadly, I think there's, there are concerns about the appropriateness of school, which is a place that [00:27:30] many kids go to get away from their problems at home.
[00:27:35] Stephanie: Being a place where they can't compartmentalize because they're asked to be vulnerable in a space where they don't actually have the level of [00:27:45] confidentiality that is app appro, the level of confidentiality and autonomy and choice that are required for good. Therapy to take place. And then there's the concern about, you know, the same therapist seeing their friends [00:28:00] and issues with privacy there.
[00:28:02] Stephanie: And, and all of that is not even to begin to get into the subject of the school counselors grooming indoctrinating. And transitioning minors, um, [00:28:15] without their parents' knowledge or consent. Um, so those are the kind of issues with school counseling that we've talked about on this podcast before. And, you know, now that we've sort of checked the box of covering services [00:28:30] that are hard to disagree with, like the McKinney McKinney-Vento you know, I'd like to kind of graduate to your thoughts on those more kind of controversial areas.
[00:28:41] Jonathan: Definitely. And so just to give a little bit more [00:28:45] context, and I wanna say this because I think it's important to hear about places where things are going well and that things are not just totally nutty bars everywhere.
[00:28:54] Speaker 3: Yeah.
[00:28:55] Jonathan: Um, in my rural, really, really rural setting in West [00:29:00] Texas, there's not a whole lot of leftist ideology floating around.
[00:29:04] Jonathan: So right after, right after you and I, right around the time you and I talked last. There's a district in my area that let two teachers go over comments that were [00:29:15] made about Charlie Kirk online, but that's, you know, two teachers out of about 40 school districts. So there are a small handful of people who are kind of very interested in, in more and leftist politics, leftist ideology, but it's, it's by and large, [00:29:30] very absent here.
[00:29:32] Jonathan: And the, the largest problem that is faced when trying to deliver mental health support to schools around here is that you generally have people who are. Overworked, or [00:29:45] you have districts that are way understaffed trying to implement something like a, a what I would consider to be a good SEL program, not one that's chock full of leftist ideology, but one that helps the students to develop emotional differentiation, [00:30:00] conflict resolution skills.
[00:30:01] Stephanie: Sorry. When you say SEL, for people who haven't heard that before, go ahead.
[00:30:05] Jonathan: Social emotional learning is what that refers to. Yes. Thank you for for calling me out on defining the acronyms. Whew. Education is the worst about having therapists [00:30:15] is, therapy is probably second place for having the, the most ridiculous number of acronyms.
[00:30:20] Jonathan: But yeah, so social emotional learning, which a among, among people in our corners of the internet is becoming or has become kind of a dirty word. It's a [00:30:30] controversial word because people automatically associate it with with this idea of indoctrination. Um, and I can tell you I have helped to implement SEL programs that are not chockfull of [00:30:45] leftist political ideas, social theories, and I have watched that do amazing, amazing things.
[00:30:52] Jonathan: I've walked into a school where you go inside and there is an adult right there with like a pair of students, but the [00:31:00] student is the one who takes the responsibility for greeting you as the visitor of the school and, you know, looks you in the eye and shakes your hand and says, Hey, welcome. I'm so and so.
[00:31:09] Jonathan: Who are you? And, you know, introductions are made. And then they go around the school and they, [00:31:15] they give you a tour of every bulletin board that has to do with their personal goals or their classroom goals, or their school goals and what they're working on. And they can explain where they are in the process of growth as an individual student, as a classroom, [00:31:30] as a school in, in academic performance.
[00:31:34] Jonathan: So there are some really amazing positive programs out there that help students to work on personal organization, conflict resolution, growing [00:31:45] emotional differentiation, you know, such that they have greater control over their own emotional states. You know, in a psychoeducation fashion and in a, like, classroom lesson delivery fashion, not, not so much like an individual [00:32:00] therapy, like we mental health professionals would think of it.
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[00:32:49] Stephanie: Let me ask you about this, because one of my sort of gut negative reactions at this point in time, to the things that I [00:33:00] hear about this type of service in schools is that I really want therapy to be voluntary. I think yes, good therapy. It can only take place in a voluntary environment. And whenever [00:33:15] it's not voluntary, there are ethical issues and compromises, and we could have a whole conversation just about that.
[00:33:23] Stephanie: But I, I, I won't zoom in on that. I'm just gonna say that there are, [00:33:30] there are harms and ripple effects when people have an early experience of feeling that any type of mental health service is being imposed on them. Or that, you know, for example, um, I'm, I'm gonna be graded on this. I'm [00:33:45] gonna be asked to share something personal and then I'm gonna be judged, or, you know, so that blurring of lines between school, where some of your work is public, where you are being judged on your conduct and your right and wrong [00:34:00] answers.
[00:34:00] Stephanie: And sometimes you're being judged in front of your peers. You know the blurring of the lines between that experience where students. Know what to expect if they've been in school a few years, and the much different set of rules that applies to [00:34:15] anything regarding the content of your own private thoughts and emotions, anything vulnerable.
[00:34:23] Stephanie: I just have a lot of concerns with that. And so when I hear about, you know, as, as good as you make it sound, especially if there's [00:34:30] no indoctrination into a radical belief system, if it's just basic, you know, emotional literacy and social skills and things like that, as good as that sound, I'm thinking, do students know how to distinguish?
[00:34:44] Stephanie: Am I [00:34:45] being graded on this? You know, the, the kind of the secondary dimensions like, or is, is this optional? Right? If I'm being asked to share how I feel about something, can I say no? Because I think it sends the wrong [00:35:00] message, especially when, um.
[00:35:07] Stephanie: I don't know. I, I'm struggling to articulate my thought here. But it's, it's, I think, [00:35:15] potentially turns people off of therapy later in life to have those experiences. And it also confuses children as to, you know, what is therapy? What is expected of me and what, you know, where, where am I being [00:35:30] judged and where am I truly just free to express my thoughts and get help?
[00:35:33] Stephanie: And is that private and is it mandatory? And like all that kind of stuff, that's what I worry about.
[00:35:37] Jonathan: Mm-hmm. Yeah, you're pushing in a really good direction in a really healthy direction with that question, I think, which is, [00:35:45] what is the, if we're gonna have mental health support in school, what is the, like max ceiling limit for what that should be?
[00:35:55] Jonathan: So a little while ago right, right around the time we talked last I was writing a Substack [00:36:00] article that I've since finished. And I'll, I'll mention a couple of things from that to maybe kind of help answer your question. Although you have just, just full disclosure, you have made me think of things with that question that I have not considered so far.
[00:36:13] Jonathan: So you, you're giving me homework, [00:36:15] like I'm gonna have to write a follow up to my original article now, which is fine. Uh, and that's something that I said in the article is that I made some suggestions for ways things could be structured that aren't perfect and I want them to be better. I [00:36:30] wanna just kind of strengthen the plans and the, and the arguments that can be made for, for for good.
[00:36:35] Jonathan: And I also wanna close any gaps for problems like the ones that you're bringing up. So the, the first thing that, that comes to [00:36:45] me so in, I would say in the SEL programs that I have personally witnessed and or helped to, to implement. There has not been very much, if any close [00:37:00] discussion of like personal mental health topics.
[00:37:03] Jonathan: So an example of an activity would be, so we're gonna, we're gonna write a class, we're vision statement type activity. And so then [00:37:15] what are elements of classroom culture or behavior or skills that we want to be present when we interact with each other in this, this classroom. And the, the teacher gets the students involved in, in generating some of the, some of the [00:37:30] terms, some of the classroom norms, basically.
[00:37:33] Jonathan: You know, so we want to, you know, we wanna be a classroom where people treat each other kindly, where we're patient with one another. And so it's really about for a vast majority, and again, I can, this is what I've seen, [00:37:45] uh, it doesn't refer to all programs out there by any means. Uh, their focus on involving the students in co-creating some positive classroom culture.
[00:37:56] Jonathan: That's really the primary intent. And the one that I helped [00:38:00] implemented implement did not have any discussion of mental health topics specifically in general. Um, we never talked about depression. We never talked about anxiety. We never talked about trauma. Right. Um, we, we [00:38:15] talked about things like, you know, okay, when you get really upset, can you, you know, can you pause, can you insert a pause in the interaction there?
[00:38:24] Jonathan: And then think about what skills you might bring to bear to help the interaction turn out [00:38:30] productively.
[00:38:31] Stephanie: I, I could get behind that.
[00:38:33] Jonathan: Yeah. Or we might, we might be having, you know, a lesson on how do you prioritize important tasks. So we are kind of touching on mental health, we're touching on cognitive [00:38:45] emotional functioning with the lesson, but we're not getting to the individual student level.
[00:38:49] Stephanie: Yeah.
[00:38:50] Jonathan: Um, and that's not to say that never happens. You may have like a school counselor take a a small group lesson for say, students who are struggling with [00:39:00] behavior to a little bit more specific detail. However, in Texas now, if you're gonna do that there has to be specific affirmative parental consent signed for your student to ha to participate in that.
[00:39:13] Jonathan: And you're also legally [00:39:15] required the school district is legally required to make the materials available to parents.
[00:39:20] Stephanie: Good.
[00:39:21] Jonathan: And that's the result of Senate Bill 12 that passed back in, uh, in April or May. So, so there are some in, in Texas, there, [00:39:30] there are some protections built in for some of those types of concerns.
[00:39:34] Stephanie: Well, um, I know that I gave you a lot more than that to respond to, but can I bring in a new element as well? Sure. Go
[00:39:41] Speaker 3: ahead.
[00:39:41] Stephanie: Yeah. Um, because you said that it doesn't get to the level [00:39:45] of scrutinizing an individual's psyche or talking about psychiatric diagnoses or things like this, and, and I started thinking about how irresponsibly many aspects of society are handling the topic of [00:40:00] suicide right now.
[00:40:01] Stephanie: One example is there is an elementary school that I have passed with a sign, you know, those, um, signs, I forget what they're called, but where you can change the letters on the sign. Like most schools? Yeah. Like
[00:40:12] Jonathan: a, a marquee.
[00:40:13] Stephanie: Yeah. [00:40:15] Okay. So the marquee of this elementary school said something about suicide prevention week.
[00:40:21] Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:23] Stephanie: And I'm thinking you're teaching the word suicide to [00:40:30] elementary school kids. And then you're teaching them that they have something to do to prevent it. That's wrong on so many levels. I mean, first of all, uh, it is not your job as a teacher or school administrator to teach [00:40:45] young children about disturbing things like suicide.
[00:40:47] Stephanie: That needs to be left to the parents to teach children if and when it comes up. You should not be bringing it up because now some little kid's gonna be like, mommy, what's suicide? Right. [00:41:00] And, and it's not because of something that you willingly exposed them to 'cause you thought they were ready to learn about this topic.
[00:41:07] Stephanie: It's 'cause their school put it on the marquee. And then, and then to talk about suicide prevention in an elementary [00:41:15] school. I think I, I don't know how they're talking about it, but to me that sends a confusing message as if. Students. I mean, this is elementary school. We're talking 10 and under, as if they have something to do [00:41:30] with preventing, I mean, now granted, there is a case to be made that bullying prevention is suicide prevention because bullying is a factor that can lean towards suicide.
[00:41:40] Stephanie: However, I still think even the worst bully in an [00:41:45] elementary school that your, your motivation for teaching that kid not to be a bully should not be the guilt trip of you might cause someone to kill themselves. Like, that's not the right, that's too big of a guilt trip to put on a little kid. [00:42:00]
[00:42:00] Jonathan: No. Yes.
[00:42:01] Jonathan: Agreed.
[00:42:01] Stephanie: So it's like, and, and where I see this mirrored because here I am talking about really inappropriate word to use with small children, and I see this mirrored in the ways that [00:42:15] teens are Holden to, codependent enmeshed toxic relationships with each other due to online influence under supervision.
[00:42:25] Stephanie: In the online world, teens are teaching each other to self harm, or they're [00:42:30] feeling responsible for, again, suicide prevention in their friends. And I hear so many stories given that my work is coaching parents of troubled youth. I hear so many stories of times that some 17 year olds, uh, who was developmentally [00:42:45] emotionally quite younger than 17, you know, maybe academically he was 20, but emotionally he was 12, and he's losing sleep at night because he feels like it's his job to prevent his friends from committing suicide.
[00:42:58] Stephanie: And I, I look at the [00:43:00] situation like, okay, who are we worried about? And have their parents been notified? Like, do, yes. Is that child receiving appropriate support because it is not your child's job. Your child is not a trained crisis counselor. They're not that kid's parent. [00:43:15] Your kid still has a lot of growing up to do.
[00:43:16] Stephanie: Your kid should not be losing sleep thinking that it's their job to stop their friend from offing themselves. So, and, and you know, now we've mentioned this topic and so this episode's gonna be censored [00:43:30] because the algorithm doesn't want us talking about this. They want us using ridiculous newspeak like unli.
[00:43:36] Stephanie: And I just refuse to talk that way, even if it lowers my exposure to new audiences. But that it's that sort of stuff [00:43:45] in the culture that, you know, where we're teaching children who should not be burdened with other people's mental health crises. That it's their job to save everyone. Like, that worries me so much and I worry that some of these [00:44:00] well-intentioned services in schools are unintentionally sending kids the message that.
[00:44:06] Stephanie: You are responsible for other people's mental health, not just, you know, be kind and solve problems productively and [00:44:15] create a positive classroom environment, but you're responsible for your friend's depression and anxiety and suicide risk.
[00:44:22] Jonathan: This is not an emotionally differentiated lesson that we're talking about here.
[00:44:26] Jonathan: This is this. Murray Bowen would not be [00:44:30] happy with this kinda lesson being taught at all. Murray Bowen was the founder of multi-generational family therapy, by the way, and as far as I know, coined the term emotional differentiation for y'all out there listening. Yeah, no, you're, you're on a, a bullseye on the, [00:44:45] the topic of where things get really sticky or where lines go too far.
[00:44:51] Jonathan: As you were talking about the idea of, of helping to, helping to talk to you, were gonna talk to elementary kids in a way that's going [00:45:00] to help them. To contribute to suicide prevention. The, I was like, well, what would I, if I was gonna do that developmentally, appropriately, what would I even teach them?
[00:45:10] Jonathan: What would the topic be? And the, the only thing that comes to mind right off [00:45:15] is, is hey, you are not, you're not responsible for the behavior of those around you. You're, you are responsible for your own behavior. And you, you may have really strong emotions sometimes. And [00:45:30] so what happens when you have really strong emotions?
[00:45:32] Jonathan: How do you deal with that? How do you help that to become better or less intense? And, you know, if you did some teaching with them about, like healthy coping of, you know, connecting to [00:45:45] a trustworthy friend or reaching out to an adult that is a, is a reliable caregiver, and, and just avoiding isolation, like that would be a good upstream lesson that you could teach elementary kids.
[00:45:59] Jonathan: [00:46:00] That would lay some foundational groundwork for them of skills that could help them avoid falling into suicidality later. Uh, but I would not ever wanna mention the, the term suicide or the concept of [00:46:15] suicide in an elementary school personally. I don't think that'd be a good idea. Um, one of the things that I talk about in the, in the Substack article that I wrote is the, the idea of, of over medicalized programs being a [00:46:30] problem.
[00:46:30] Jonathan: And, and I don't I don't remember if you and I talked last time about like the history of marriage and family therapy, where our field came from but it came as a counter reaction to overmedicalization of. [00:46:45] Medical diagnoses and doctors becoming more in medical, doctors becoming more and more involved and creation of diagnostic categories.
[00:46:51] Jonathan: And then what these early family therapists who were psychiatrists at the time were, were noticing is that it was getting [00:47:00] harder to treat people because they were internalizing the label of their diagnosis at the level of identity.
[00:47:05] Stephanie: No way.
[00:47:07] Jonathan: Yes. So this is mind blowing, right? Not the first, this is,
[00:47:10] Stephanie: are we talking about the 1960s?
[00:47:12] Jonathan: Yes.
[00:47:13] Stephanie: Uhhuh. Okay. [00:47:15] Please go on.
[00:47:16] Jonathan: We're talking about the 1950s and the 1960s. Okay. And Lu Ludwig von Lan fee, Gregory Bateson, um, a lot of the therapists who work at the Palo Alto Institute, this is the case that they were [00:47:30] making, is that okay, these diagnostic labels, like we see the intent of it trying to help, but it's kind of having a paradoxical effect.
[00:47:36] Jonathan: And we don't, we don't want this paradoxical effect. And so they. Started working. They had already kind of Bateson and Bert Phi had started working with, uh, general systems [00:47:45] theory as a theoretical model for understanding human behavior. And they used that to describe what was happening both with the Overmedicalization situation and with some, they, they were trying to treat people with schizophrenia [00:48:00] and and just noticing the effect that family interaction had on visit weekends in this inpatient facility where they were working with these patients.
[00:48:10] Jonathan: And they noticed when the families would show up, they, the [00:48:15] patients would regress. They'd go back into previous. Maladaptive, you know, bad coping or negative reactions, or more intense symptoms. And at first they were like kind of blaming the family. But when they, when they started to [00:48:30] apply general systems theory kind of more fully, what they realized is it's just a, it's just a relational context.
[00:48:36] Jonathan: This is the environment, the family environment in which their symptoms developed originally. So then when you re-expose them to that [00:48:45] environment they, they go back into the homeostasis. They were in the, the balance of symptoms or lack of symptoms that they were in when they were living with the family.
[00:48:55] Jonathan: Because family relationships are extremely powerful in, in shaping our [00:49:00] behavior. And we all kind of have not, we have roles whether we like it or not, and they're not, they're somewhat fixed. We can like swap roles, but that actually takes quite a lot of effort usually to do. I mean, you know, all this, so this [00:49:15] is just some general systems theory stuff getting applied in general, but that they, as they were writing about these theories, they were putting them out there as an alternative to this overmedicalization model.
[00:49:27] Jonathan: The overmedicalization of everything is [00:49:30] what was their primary motivation for proposing an alternate theory that didn't result in labeling, that sunk into identity, that made homeostasis even more like concrete in trying to change
[00:49:44] Stephanie: it. [00:49:45] Hmm. You know, I know some of this, but I, I, I've never heard it articulated this way before and it's, it's creating light bulb moments for me because I'm thinking about.
[00:49:55] Stephanie: When I was learning about family therapy as a baby therapist, you know, [00:50:00] in my mid twenties and lacking the context that I have now and, and hearing what you're talking about is, well, that's the problem we have now, right? We have this highly individualistic, um, you know, egosyntonic relationship with disorders, [00:50:15] secondary gain, you know, these are the clinical terms for it.
[00:50:17] Stephanie: But I, I break these things down in my course for parents. I explain how these psychological concepts about what people are getting out of remaining ill and clinging to this label affect the issue that so many families are faced with [00:50:30] today, which is kids identifying as something other than what they are, and then wanting to medically alter their entire futures because of that identity.
[00:50:38] Stephanie: So I explain these concepts for people now, but to think about it in the sense that our field, in particular, the, the [00:50:45] field of marriage and family therapy as opposed to. It's the field of, you know, licensed professional counseling, licensed clinical social work, all these similar license paths out there.
[00:50:58] Stephanie: Our field really [00:51:00] originated in this not only systemic view of what was going on in the context in which symptoms emerge in the function that they served in the family system, but in rebellion against the overmedicalization and the [00:51:15] individualism and you know, secondary gain that goes along with that.
[00:51:18] Stephanie: And it makes me want to defend our field more. You know, what I've often looked at when I think about the history of our field is just that the American [00:51:30] Association for Marriage and Family Therapy was formed in the sixties. And I look at how many more Americans were married and in families in the sixties.
[00:51:39] Stephanie: Like our profession is supposed to be about marriage and family. Which used to be a [00:51:45] bigger part of American life. Now, we're so atomized and, and my, my complaint, I've said this at least five times on this podcast, but if you go to the A-A-M-F-T website today, American Association of Marriage Family Therapy website, [00:52:00] what's, what's one of the main menu options?
[00:52:03] Stephanie: Transgender resources. Are there resources for marriages and families? No. They put transgender resources. Right, which, which we know is incredibly the idea ideology [00:52:15] that destroys families. But I, I love the angle that you're taking there, and I'm sure there, there was maybe another point that you were trying to make with that.
[00:52:24] Jonathan: Well, it, um, I can kind of so I pause. First of all, amen to what you said [00:52:30] about defending the profession. I'm gonna, I'm gonna shout out one of my great teachers, Tom Millholland. He's not on the internet much. He is, he is just about 80 years old. He taught my general systems theory class, one of the most brilliant [00:52:45] men that I've ever met.
[00:52:45] Jonathan: I think I started getting to have coffee with him again recently. He he was a double MFT president uh, back in the day, like back in the eighties and nineties. He has license number one for L MFTs in Texas 'cause he helped [00:53:00] spearhead the creation of the license in the eighties. So he's old school and so any, anything I just told you, I credit to sitting in that first semester class, um, with him and, you know, and for whatever reason that that stuff stuck.
[00:53:13] Jonathan: There is an incredibly proud [00:53:15] intellectual tradition that has really had no business altering the global therapy landscape as much as it did, considering how small it still is. We, marriage and family therapy [00:53:30] burst dozens of therapy models. And we helped to mainstream others, like emotionally focused therapy that wasn't widely accepted in psychology until, uh, we, we found Sue Johnson.
[00:53:41] Jonathan: And she, like, you're one of us. You like, you're gonna come to [00:53:45] our conferences. And Sue would've made it without us. I'm not gonna cl she's, she was a brilliant lady, um, and a great teacher. I'm thankful to have gotten to hear too. But I mean, narrative therapy, solution-focused, brief therapy internal family systems, [00:54:00] structural, strategic, um, all these models came from a field in less than half a century.
[00:54:06] Jonathan: And, and in an environment where none of this social justice theory was even thought of for most of that history. [00:54:15] Um, and so my whole platform on social media really is I want the proud intellectual tradition to be defended and not to continue to be eroded by ideas that are philosophically opposed.[00:54:30]
[00:54:31] Jonathan: I, I don't know, that's the best phrase I've come up with so far, that, that these social justice ideas are philosophically opposed to what I learned in general systems theory. Okay. So let me, let me take what the beautiful sermon you just laid out there and [00:54:45] translate it back into this school mental health topic.
[00:54:48] Jonathan: So I don't think that intervention programs that focus on mental health topics directly are generally a good idea. Not, not universal, not the term in [00:55:00] education is tier one, and tier one just means every student in the school is getting that lesson. Tier two means you may identify a small group of students that need some additional support.
[00:55:12] Jonathan: You know, maybe focusing on the specific behavior and you're [00:55:15] gonna maybe get more specific with them than you would with that tier one universal. And then there's tier three, which is one-on-one, and that should be, that should almost not exist in a school, is my opinion about that. Uh, [00:55:30] because if we are needing to do tier three, that means we, we need therapy.
[00:55:36] Jonathan: And for the exact reason that you laid out there earlier, I think it's always most appropriate for an entity other than the school to, to be the [00:55:45] delivering entity of that service. And there's a really simple ethical explanation for why that should be. Multiple roles are not good for individuals and they're not good for organizations.
[00:55:57] Jonathan: And that's of. Kind of a [00:56:00] foundational general systems theory assumption. In, in my opinion, because Can
[00:56:04] Stephanie: you explain what you mean for the non therapist in the audience?
[00:56:07] Jonathan: I can, yes, I can. And I, and I lay this out there if people wanna know more. In the, in the Substack article that I wrote this idea [00:56:15] that your, your primary function, if you're a school district, your primary purpose should be facilitating academic development.
[00:56:27] Jonathan: You should be an academic development [00:56:30] entity. And if you're going to do mental health support, the mental health support, in my opinion, the top ceiling of it should be we are going to teach you skills, or we're gonna engage in interventions that will [00:56:45] help return you in the short term to readiness for academic performance.
[00:56:50] Jonathan: To readiness for learning. So if you're in some short term acute distress, that's part of a larger situation, but that's kind of flaring itself [00:57:00] up at school. We're gonna help you get through that flare up. We're gonna return you to readiness for learning in the school context, and then for any mental health needs beyond that, we're gonna look to refer to outside resources, outside agencies to be able to help.
[00:57:14] Jonathan: So [00:57:15] I, I'd say that it's not good for a school to attempt to be an academic development facilitating agency and a mental health treatment looking for remission of a disorder entity. [00:57:30] Does that make sense?
[00:57:32] Stephanie: Yes, absolutely. And I think it's about creating an environment that doesn't exacerbate students'. I students' anxiety by making it clear what is expected of them in that environment.[00:57:45]
[00:57:45] Stephanie: And one piece of advice that I might offer to parents who let's say you have a child with a behavioral issue and you're considering en engaging them in mental health services is, as I mentioned earlier, [00:58:00] the role of choice is crucial. And sometimes kids with behavioral issues are when they're acting out, they're testing boundaries, they are seeing what they can get away with.
[00:58:11] Stephanie: And, and that's normal, right? And the looser you show them your boundaries [00:58:15] are, or the more inconsistent, the more you're teaching them to keep pushing, to find those boundaries. And I think sometimes it's powerful to offer a child a choice and say, look, I'm confused. I don't know what it's like to be. In your brain, in your body.[00:58:30]
[00:58:30] Stephanie: I don't know what motivates you. I can only guess, but from the outside, here's the behavior that's causing problems. Here's the thing we need you to start doing or stop doing [00:58:45] now, since I can't get in your head, and I don't know if you're doing this on purpose or on accident. I, I don't know if it's deliberate or not.
[00:58:54] Stephanie: So here's the thing, if it is a choice, you can stop doing that right now [00:59:00] and then we can move on and we won't have to have any further discussion about this. If you're telling me that you lack control, that, that this is not a choice, then we're gonna need to get you some [00:59:15] mental health support. The goal, one of the goals at least, so that mental health support needs to be that this behavior stops, right?
[00:59:23] Stephanie: Because we don't run out of the classroom during learning time or because we [00:59:30] don't punch your sister when you want a toy, whatever, you know, like whatever the boundary is, here's the behavior that needs to stop. Here's what we need to see in its place. You can choose to stop doing it, but if you continue the behavior that's [00:59:45] gonna tell us maybe you need.
[00:59:47] Stephanie: Help because this is coming from something that you really don't understand. And I, I think that setting that type of boundary, saying either stop the behavior or we go to therapy is important for a couple reasons. It gives [01:00:00] the kid choice. It, it makes clear what is the objective, right? Like what needs to happen and why it's not this ambiguous.
[01:00:08] Stephanie: Am I being graded on the quality of my soul? Is my heart and mind being scrutinized by the same people who are judging me on my math [01:00:15] performance? You know, it's not that, or, or by different people, by mom and dad for that matter. It's not like, am I under scrutiny? Is the, the character of my soul in question.
[01:00:25] Stephanie: It's there's a behavior that needs to start or stop and it can be [01:00:30] explained to me in plain English why I can't keep doing that. And then I have the choice and, and I get to communicate. Whether I feel like I have the self-control or not. And then if my actions and my words don't line up, then there's gonna be, you know, [01:00:45] some kind of further action taken.
[01:00:48] Jonathan: Mm-hmm. And, and in general in this type of situation that you're describing, we don't remove discipline practices because somebody, it has a diagnosis attached [01:01:00] to them or because e or even because they may be an identified homeless student. Now the, on that topic, the law gets involved. And we actually just saw a little bit of relaxation allowing the [01:01:15] schools a little bit more leeway about discipline.
[01:01:18] Jonathan: But there are actually federal laws on the books that will, that can limit the type of discipline you employ now. So there may be some special circumstances that require a little more flexibility like homeless [01:01:30] students for that. But in general, we shouldn't we shouldn't remove discipline. We shouldn't have tiers of discipline within a school for particular behaviors.
[01:01:40] Jonathan: Depending on what group you're a part of, you cannot have predictable, consistent routine [01:01:45] without clear boundaries that everybody can adhere to. Um, and a lot of the, a lot of the efforts that I think have posed problems in schools are ones that have attempted to just totally relax, [01:02:00] discipline in areas where there is a mental health diagnosis or where there's some particular, you know, special category of student there.
[01:02:10] Jonathan: Um, and I have, I have never seen that turn out that well. It makes a [01:02:15] huge mess. Um, and so me saying all this out loud. In full acknowledgement that even in Texas, like our current law isn't aligned to what I'm saying. This is what Jonathan wishes were the case, you know, across the board. Uh, if that makes sense.
[01:02:29] Stephanie: No, I'm [01:02:30] not quite following.
[01:02:31] Jonathan: So, well just kind of speaking about the, using the McKinney Bento students as an example. So up until this year you, the hurdle to temporarily remove [01:02:45] a student from class for an identified homeless student was extremely, extremely high. And they put some concessions in through, um, I, I apologize, I'm not gonna remember what Bill it is that they, that they did that passed, that [01:03:00] enacted this.
[01:03:01] Jonathan: But they did put allowances in place where if a student represents a physical safety risk to those around him or her, you can. Temporarily remove them or even even [01:03:15] remove them on a longer term if they're, the problematic behavior doesn't resolve in a particular amount of time. So you can see like how there can be real, real serious challenges.
[01:03:26] Jonathan: I, I had a school, I've had [01:03:30] several schools working with special ed students who were very physically very large students who, you know, they have their one school building and the students maybe have a disorder that, that makes them, [01:03:45] scratch that word that contributes to them maybe being physically aggressive.
[01:03:49] Jonathan: And so you have this situation where you have this very large, strong student going through the halls and striking staff members, striking other students. And the, and the [01:04:00] special ed law won't let you fully remove them. Like you've got to have as much inclusion and main main streaming of that student as possible.
[01:04:08] Jonathan: And then of course that causes problems with your classroom culture more widely because you have, like, there's this physical [01:04:15] risk from this person, and it, it, it makes it unfair to the students who were there and who were trying to learn and who are able to conduct themselves according to the rules and norms of the [01:04:30] school.
[01:04:31] Stephanie: So you're saying that currently in Texas, students who are identified within the system as having special needs, whether that's because of they're in special education, they have a diagnosis or they're under McKinney vent to do that, the [01:04:45] behavioral standards are lower for those students. It's, it's harder to
[01:04:49] Jonathan: it's harder to, to discipline.
[01:04:51] Jonathan: To have discipline programs because you can't, you're, you are, um, prohibited from doing you know, certain actions like [01:05:00] take, taking a kid into an in-school suspension type environment, for instance. Or like, so go back to McKinney-Vento students for a second. There's a really good rationale for not expelling those students which is [01:05:15] that if they don't have a home to go back to or the home that you're sending them back to is gonna put them in a worse state than, you know, than having them at school, then you probably don't want to expel them.
[01:05:27] Jonathan: Another example for that [01:05:30] you would think would be a good idea for expulsion, but really is not. We, we mentioned school violence prevention earlier and I wanna at least touch on that. So so we have a behavioral threat assessment process. Every school in Texas has to have a behavioral threat assessment team, and one of my jobs is to [01:05:45] train those teams.
[01:05:46] Jonathan: And so we do a couple of workshops to help them with that. Um, and you would think, you know, if you've got a student who's making violent threats or who's engaged in some attack planning behavior, you think might have [01:06:00] engaged in some attack planning behavior, that expulsion would be a good idea.
[01:06:03] Jonathan: The problem is if you expel that student they're still in your town and they've been engaging in attack planning and they are moving into some kind of social emotional [01:06:15] isolation that is enabling them to stay in this pattern of thinking about wanting to plan attacks, which is not a normal psychosocial behavior.
[01:06:24] Jonathan: For a student, it's indicative of underlying problems. So expelling that student is, [01:06:30] uh, is not a great idea because the, the spirit of behavioral threat assessment is we want to keep a warm hand of support on the shoulder of that student and, and actually improve supports until such a time as we can all [01:06:45] agree as a team that the student is no longer on a pathway to violence.
[01:06:49] Jonathan: That's the terminology that's used.
[01:06:51] Stephanie: So that's really in the training, that's really tricky. You bring up a good point, right? You expelling the student doesn't solve the problem. In fact, it might make violence more [01:07:00] likely. But at the same time, keeping them in the school environment, is it, it increases the risk of danger to everyone's safety.
[01:07:10] Stephanie: So what do you do? It, it feels, it feels similar to a lot of the kind of [01:07:15] situations that I guide parents through where they're walking through a field of landmines and choosing their moves very carefully.
[01:07:21] Jonathan: Mm-hmm. So behavioral threat assessment is one of the, one of the main things that I talk about in the article that I wrote that, and tricky is the [01:07:30] exact feeling.
[01:07:31] Jonathan: Because we have these statutory requirements, the schools have to follow these procedures currently because it's the law on the books. The end part of behavioral threat threat assessment is a case management process. And so the, the textbook answer to [01:07:45] your question there about what do you do is you engage in a variety of.
[01:07:51] Jonathan: Like social emotional support very routine check-ins with usually a school counselor, but maybe a, a [01:08:00] classroom teacher that that student identifies as somebody they kind of get along with. Just to, to keep a hand kind of on the pulse of how that student's doing more closely. Checking it can involve checking the student's backpack in person every [01:08:15] morning for a period of time when they come into school, which is uncomfortable.
[01:08:20] Jonathan: And at the same time, it provides some necessary accountability. If, if we are gonna have the student remaining in the classroom,
[01:08:27] Stephanie: whose job is it to check the student's [01:08:30] backpack?
[01:08:30] Jonathan: It generally would be like a student resource officer. Student resource officers are very frequently part of the behavioral threat assessment team.
[01:08:39] Jonathan: Um, and that would typically be a duty that would be more appropriate for law enforcement. Could [01:08:45] be an administrator. It's not going to be the school counselor. The school counselor is going to be kind of in, in the point person support role.
[01:08:53] Stephanie: Sorry,
[01:08:54] Jonathan: to law
[01:08:55] Stephanie: enforcement you mean? You mean police on campus?
[01:08:58] Jonathan: Yes. Uhhuh. [01:09:00] Yeah. Now student. So student resource officer is a little bit different than the typ your typical beat cop kind of idea. The intent of student resource officer is different. I won't say that. Student resource [01:09:15] officers always embody this, but student resource officers are generally, like about half the time they're not in their full gear.
[01:09:22] Jonathan: Like they maybe have a polo shirt, you know, and they are armed and they got their badge on their belt. But they're, they are a kind of [01:09:30] an additional presence to keep. So, um, to keep the school safe in general during the day, to discourage attack planning, to discourage anyone from actually attempting to carry out an attack.
[01:09:44] Jonathan: Because if [01:09:45] you have the presence of an armed person, um, you're a lot less likely to, to experience attack as a school.
[01:09:51] Stephanie: Is this a norm in Texas? Do you know how common this is throughout the states? Because I haven't heard of this being everywhere.
[01:09:59] Jonathan: So [01:10:00] I would assume it, it would be very common in, in kind of your more conservative states.
[01:10:06] Jonathan: Something that, that I, it might or might not blow your mind. I don't know. I it would certainly maybe blow some of your some of your viewers' minds in, in a lot of [01:10:15] our small and rural schools all over Texas, there's a sign out front of the school and it says, um, this is, these are schools that are too small maybe to have an SRO or they don't have a good resource for an SRO, so they can have trained guardians.[01:10:30]
[01:10:30] Jonathan: And a guardian is a teacher, a coach, an administrator who goes through a training course, an active threat response. So this, what the sign says is our school has guardians who are covert and armed, who will use whatever force [01:10:45] necessary to stop any attempt at a violent attack on the school. These signs are everywhere.
[01:10:51] Jonathan: Out here in this, well, really all over the state of Texas, you can Google and see, and they, they use kind of a standard set of text very, very common. So the [01:11:00] point is that these
[01:11:00] Stephanie: guardians blend in and nobody's supposed to know who they are.
[01:11:04] Jonathan: Mm-hmm.
[01:11:04] Stephanie: But they're armed and trained.
[01:11:05] Jonathan: Mm-hmm. Absolutely. And so the sign is, is a, a deterrent.
[01:11:12] Jonathan: Hopefully it's saying this is not a soft target, [01:11:15] so don't expect it to be. And I, you know, I'm a very pro two a person. And I've seen the training course materials that these folks go through, and I've been through these kind of training course materials for for serving [01:11:30] as a church guardian. And and the training is generally very good.
[01:11:34] Jonathan: And the, what, what I, what I learned from going through that training is that over 90% of the time, if an attack planner learns that the [01:11:45] target is not a soft target, they will leave that alone and go on to a different target. Now, I don't want anything to be a target, but if, if having trained guardians and putting a sign out will, you know, [01:12:00] reduce our chance of having an attack here by 90% that's pretty good.
[01:12:05] Jonathan: I am totally fine with that sign being up there. I'm totally fine with those staff members you know, being armed and trained and, and I hope they never, ever, ever have to use it because I hope the [01:12:15] deterrent effect is what actually makes the difference there. But. They do have the, the capability to react if they need to.
[01:12:23] Jonathan: People don't like to talk about this. It's kind of an ugly topic. And it, it, it is, I don't think we should feel good about it. But [01:12:30] the reality is there is no utopia in which we completely end violence across the board not with human capability anyway. You know, you we've got to have some things in place that are reasonable and realistic [01:12:45] that that will actually help on the ground.
[01:12:48] Jonathan: So I think, I think that that idea of having folks prepared to react in via training is very important and very good. The, the whole behavioral threat [01:13:00] assessment process is it really isn't what people think it is. I mentioned the soft hand of support part of it. It's really a. Team development and communication program that just has a very [01:13:15] particular purpose of noticing kids who are displaying concerning behavior.
[01:13:18] Jonathan: If I was to describe to somebody what I'm actually doing when I train those teams, it is helping them to cultivate awareness of some early signs and typical behaviors that you might [01:13:30] see and coaching them in rehearsing how they'll communicate as a team when they encounter a student that shows one of those smaller signs that might be just, it's a little puzzle piece and it's not enough for [01:13:45] me to say, yes, I'm very concerned, but if I am trained to notice that little puzzle piece and then I bring it to the team, then somebody else on the team goes, oh, you know what, so and so also said this the other [01:14:00] day and I hadn't done anything about it yet, but that's also very concerning.
[01:14:03] Jonathan: And so then. In over 80% of of attacks that have been carried out, there has been leakage in the community [01:14:15] about the the attack planner's intent. But usually the individuals who are floating around out there receiving the information don't have enough to really act on it. So the idea is, well, we develop a team whose job it is [01:14:30] to notice this type of information and compile it just within the members of that designated team who've been trained to do this.
[01:14:37] Jonathan: And it helps us to catch students who are on the pathway to violence in their mind, in [01:14:45] their, you know, individual actions at home when they're not at school, before they actually get to the point of planning and attack. And then bringing supportive interventions in place, which are probably gonna include outside counseling, referrals and coordination with the school [01:15:00] counselor and the therapist outside, um, that are gonna involve the safety measures, like checking the backpack and, and potentially checking the person of the student.
[01:15:10] Jonathan: The some additional kind of case management, you know, and social work type functions [01:15:15] that we talked about. Connecting them to resources if they happen to need that. So that's kind of the whole, that's kind of the whole process start to finish. Well I think you make
[01:15:23] Stephanie: a strong case for it. I think we can all get behind school shooting prevention.
[01:15:29] Stephanie: I'm hearing [01:15:30] that this is specifically for. Students. Do you know if there's, I do wanna ask by the way, what those signs that you look out for are, and then what some of the initial steps you take with a student are. It, it leaves open the question of [01:15:45] non-student school shooters. You know, like, um, 'cause there's been a lot of those, right?
[01:15:49] Stephanie: Young people, 18, 23 years old who maybe target a school that they'd gone to in the past, or they just target a random school or they [01:16:00] target a religious school if they're, let's say anti-Christian. Um, and I, I don't suppose any of this would translate over to how to catch those people in the community.
[01:16:13] Stephanie: That, that's a whole different kind [01:16:15] of can of worms. Right?
[01:16:15] Jonathan: It's, it's a, it it is a very different can of worms because it, it really falls under the jurisdiction of the FBI mostly to identify and catch these folks. However, the training that we use, uh, was written by [01:16:30] the FBI and the Secret Service around 2001.
[01:16:33] Jonathan: So we're using a school adapted version of the same curriculum that's used to train Secret Service and FBI agents who are out there hopefully watching and [01:16:45] hopefully intervening in some of these cases before they before they are in the actual enactment phase of an attack.
[01:16:53] Stephanie: Um, that's really great to know.
[01:16:55] Jonathan: Yeah. Same, same training material. And so the, so the, [01:17:00] the signs and the symptoms one of the things they say is, is profiling is not useful. So we're not trying to profile a student at all based on their appearance, based on their social history, their economic history, anything like that that doesn't, that doesn't prove itself out well in being [01:17:15] able to identify kids who may be attack planning.
[01:17:18] Jonathan: Really what we're looking for is a lot of the things you typically see in, in a worsening mental health condition in general. So increasing isolation. Maybe they have been [01:17:30] involved in bullying as a, as a vic, usually as a victim. Most often it attack planners may have been in the bullying victimhood role at some point.
[01:17:40] Jonathan: Um, they if you get somebody who's involved in instances of dating [01:17:45] violence if you see students who. Go through just very rapid changes in behavior or emotional states. It's out of character. Now that one right there is not evident that somebody's attack planning, but it can [01:18:00] be evidence of that.
[01:18:02] Jonathan: And it is evidence that that hey, we may need to bring some other appropriate mental health supports and for that student. And so really, really what they foc tend to focus on is those kind of prohibited and concerning [01:18:15] behaviors like being involved in violence, being caught up in bullying in some fashion.
[01:18:20] Jonathan: And then one that's one that's kind of highly debated is, well, should we run a behavioral threat assessment on any student who has suicidal thoughts? And [01:18:30] so I don't answer that question outright to the district 'cause it's actually a local district decision where they set their threshold for are we gonna run a full behavioral threat assessment or not?
[01:18:39] Jonathan: For a student. So I want the school to have autonomy and retain that autonomy. So [01:18:45] usually what I, what I help them think through with that is, okay, if you have a student who has suicidal ideation, you're gonna bring in some supports for them, a few supports at school, and hopefully a lot of supports outside of school.
[01:18:58] Jonathan: But we might not wanna, you know, [01:19:00] some people might say, we don't wanna subject every student struggling with suicide to the level of scrutiny involved in a behavioral threat assessment, because then we might experience a paradoxical effect of they don't really wanna come forward to us anymore, [01:19:15] because now we've put them under the big interrogation spotlight.
[01:19:18] Jonathan: And and most of the schools actually bring it up from that standpoint. They're like, yeah, we don't wanna, we don't wanna push people into the corners and into the shadows. And so, so I go, okay. So then if you think [01:19:30] on the other end of the continuum, there. You're not, if you're not gonna conduct a, a, a behavioral threat assessment every time you get a student struggling with suicidal thoughts what are a few questions you could ask them or how are you going to [01:19:45] rule out any other kind of behaviors on the side or motivations that could be involved with attack planning?
[01:19:51] Jonathan: How are you, how are you going to note and discover and document that part of it? Because I think if I'm not gonna run a behavioral threat assessment [01:20:00] every time we have a student with suicidal thoughts, I would wanna be able to answer how did I, how did I know with as much certainty as a person could have that that's all their, the student had going on.
[01:20:12] Jonathan: And then the, the, the, the [01:20:15] team, the district team that I'm training kind of wrestle with that question and then they, they sort of plot out their own course, their own plan for where they want that threshold line to be. That's a really
[01:20:26] Stephanie: good question.
[01:20:28] Jonathan: Yeah. It. We're, I'm thankful to [01:20:30] get to work with a lot of really, really good minds on school safety in our, in our state here, who have helped to kind of craft some of the policies and plans and how to implement a lot of this stuff.
[01:20:41] Jonathan: And so, so that's the kind of, that's the kind of thought processes we walk [01:20:45] through when we're doing those, those kind of trainings.
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[01:21:26] Stephanie: I'll include that link and coupon in the show notes for your [01:21:30] convenience. Alright, now back to the show. So just to recap, you're looking for isolation history of bullying. Rapid changes in mood and behavior. Then you brought up the subject of suicidal ideation, which, you know, also [01:21:45] raises a question of how is that suicidal ideation being expressed and to whom, and, you know, how are adults being brought into this essentially.
[01:21:51] Stephanie: But then you, you said that there's a lot of scrutiny in the behavioral threat assessment process. So how does that, I guess, so let's say [01:22:00] this team of professionals has noticed some concerning signs in the student. There's, it's not like, um, a document has been produced that reveals this child's plan to harm anyone, but you want to do some kind of intervention and you say that there is a [01:22:15] lot of scrutiny in the process.
[01:22:15] Stephanie: So how does that process get initiated?
[01:22:17] Jonathan: A lot of times it may be that a student or staff member has overheard the student say something concerning. You know, kind of making a really dark statement to appear in the [01:22:30] hallway or somebody saw them post something concerning on social media. And every every district has got like a little bit of training that they do about, and they keep it, they do a good [01:22:45] job of ke keeping it pretty general.
[01:22:46] Jonathan: Like, Hey, if you see something going on that you think might be bullying, here's who you talk to. Or, Hey, if you see you know, any, any kind of thing that you think represents a risk of safety to the school, here's who [01:23:00] you talk to. And the team at the district is the one that develops the method for, for reporting.
[01:23:07] Jonathan: Like the, the answer to the question, who are you gonna talk to? Or how are you gonna get this information to us? A lot of the schools that I work with use [01:23:15] some, they either use maybe like a Google form that serves as a, an anonymous report. For a variety of things that might include bullying or it might include risk of, of, you know of attack planning.
[01:23:28] Jonathan: You know, they've seen some, some [01:23:30] sign of attack planning going on and they can get into this Google form. Or there are actually and this one is, I have concerns about this one 'cause there are third party companies that will provide all of this to you. The service of being, like your central [01:23:45] reporting line and being kind of like an answering service.
[01:23:48] Jonathan: And that trends toward feeling a little big brotherish to me in some ways. Or there is a risk that it could go that way. Um, and, and shout out [01:24:00] to to Katie Kernodle on X. We had a really good discussion about that, that part of this on Ryan's pod, Ryan Rogers podcast a while back. Like we, I don't want a situation where these private companies have access to all this data about students.
[01:24:13] Stephanie: That sounds adjacent to a conversation [01:24:15] I've had on this podcast with Deb Fillman. So I would, uh, refer listeners to the episode that you mentioned and also the episode that I mentioned for more information on that.
[01:24:23] Jonathan: Totally fair concerns because big tech companies have not proven themselves [01:24:30] particularly trustworthy on the area of using private data.
[01:24:35] Jonathan: Well, always.
[01:24:36] Speaker 3: Right. Um,
[01:24:37] Jonathan: so reasonable concerns out there about that. And what I, what I said to Katie about it, and this isn't a, it's not a good thing, but it's just the reality of it. [01:24:45] You know, if you're at a school that. You know, maybe has less than 300 students K through 12, and you have one school counselor type person, but she has seven other job titles attached to what she does on a daily basis.[01:25:00]
[01:25:00] Jonathan: Having some kind of vendor company that provides a a, a service that you need that automates a lot of things for you is very attractive and it's very helpful if it's, if it's not, you know, [01:25:15] like icky big brother behind the scenes. So I want us to be in a situation where we could have that kind of support for districts with, you know, with the power of technology to help some of these little bitty places to do everything they need to do.
[01:25:28] Jonathan: But man, we need some really [01:25:30] good assurances from those companies about how that data's gonna be used.
[01:25:34] Speaker 3: Right.
[01:25:34] Jonathan: Um, Senate Bill 12 that I mentioned earlier shout out to Rebecca Smith who was at A MHP. Um, she helped get Senate Bill 12 passed, actually, and she wrote part of it, which is really [01:25:45] cool.
[01:25:46] Jonathan: Shout out to her. There are some, uh, bits of information in there about, Hey, if you're gonna store mental health data, here's what, here's what you have to make sure is in place as far as data protection for the student, if you're going to rely [01:26:00] on a service like that. And so I'm like, that's, that's really, really amazing.
[01:26:04] Jonathan: I'm, I'm glad that, that, that we're starting to get some protections in place. And I would encourage other states to, you know, to look at those concerns. And I think about that seriously, if they're you [01:26:15] know, if they're, if they're looking at allowing vendors like that to be used for that purpose. So, but back, that's, that's all on that original question you asked a minute ago.
[01:26:23] Jonathan: You know, which is, how does the, how does the reporting happen? Well, hopefully you've done a little bit of good training with your school community, your [01:26:30] students especially, and your teachers and your cafeteria workers and your bus drivers. Who are the people who might be well positioned to overhear a threat or a concerning statement, and then your school has provided instructions for, you're gonna log onto this [01:26:45] app, or you're gonna click this link on our school district website, or you're gonna go and find this person or that person, you know, ask to talk to the school counselor and here's what you tell.
[01:26:56] Jonathan: Um, and then that information gets sent to the behavioral threat [01:27:00] assessment team and they they have a standard form, which is called the pre screener, and it just helps you work through. Your your own based on your own thresholds for when are we gonna conduct an assessment versus not. And [01:27:15] it's just got a handful of question on it, questions on it about the situation.
[01:27:18] Jonathan: And you work your way through those questions. And if you if you follow that worksheet guidance, you'll pretty much have the answer at the end of, yes, we're gonna run a full behavioral threat assessment because we [01:27:30] believe that there's enough legitimate concern the student could be on a pathway to violence that they need that extra focus, support, and attention.
[01:27:38] Jonathan: Or, hey, the pre screener really shows like maybe we're just dealing with suicidal ideation and [01:27:45] we don't think that the student actually represents a risk of violence or on a pathway to violence. So we're gonna send them. Through a supportive process, but we're not gonna, we're not gonna go through the whole process of like looking into their whole social [01:28:00] media history, top to bottom and interviewing parents, and interviewing family members and interviewing classmates and all of that kind of stuff.
[01:28:07] Stephanie: So how do these concerns get raised to the student and the parents?
[01:28:11] Jonathan: Oh, as far as like if a student is, is on a [01:28:15] pathway or we think they might be on a pathway.
[01:28:17] Stephanie: Yeah. Any kind of risk, whether it's harm to others, harm to self,
[01:28:21] Jonathan: so. If we're talking about a behavioral threat assessment situation, like one that let's say, yeah, we think we need to run a full behavioral threat assessment, the [01:28:30] school's required to contact the parent either by phone or in writing, and let them know, Hey, your student is showing some behaviors that are concerning and we need to look into that more closely.
[01:28:43] Jonathan: So we're gonna be engaging in a [01:28:45] behavioral threat assessment process, and we welcome you to be a source of collateral information about your students' current behavior, emotions, wellbeing, and we also want you really involved in the support process. And so just kind of like, [01:29:00] here's what you can expect.
[01:29:01] Jonathan: You know, we'll be, we'll be interviewing people and kind of looking more closely into what's going on in the student's life. And, and you know, where I live, little bitty schools. Everybody knows everybody. It's pretty much a phone conversation usually. And. [01:29:15] Sometimes reasonably well received some, a lot of times, sometimes not.
[01:29:20] Jonathan: 'cause nobody likes for their it to be insinuated that their child might represent a risk of harm to somebody. But in general it's, it's [01:29:30] handled as a, as a very supportive thing. And there may be, you know, suicide risk assessment that's happening. There may be discipline that happens. If, let's say we find that the student has broken a law in the process of attack planning, [01:29:45] like they're not removed from school discipline altogether, and they're not removed from legal consequences, sometimes if, let's say we have an SRO involved the SRO has a legal obligation to report up his chain of command [01:30:00] potentially in situations where laws may have been broken in an attack planning process.
[01:30:05] Jonathan: And so but I, I think that's a overall, a good thing about the process. Like there's. Legal consequences. There's school level discipline consequences, [01:30:15] but we're not gonna remove the, the, the supportive hand from the shoulder on the behavioral threat assessment process. That stuff is happening outside the bubble of, of behavioral threat assessment.
[01:30:25] Jonathan: And we're keeping all of the threat assessment process just kind of supportive. [01:30:30] And, but, you know but definitely investigative, if that makes sense. And it's, you, you're just always gonna have a certain level of discomfort, I think, when you're talking about looking at somebody's whole social media, his media history and going through their locker and, you know, and asking [01:30:45] a lot of specific questions about their behavior all around.
[01:30:48] Jonathan: So did that, did that answer your, your mm-hmm. Last question there.
[01:30:52] Stephanie: Yeah. And I mean, I talk to parents o oftentimes you don't even know where to look. Or, or how to interpret what they're seeing when they [01:31:00] look. 'cause it's not just social media, it's also things like discord.
[01:31:05] Jonathan: Yes.
[01:31:06] Stephanie: And their chat GBT history.
[01:31:09] Stephanie: And, um, I've talked to many parents who thought they had certain sites and apps blocked and they [01:31:15] didn't. Um, yeah, it's, it's a tough world to navigate out there. And then also kind of the code that kids talk to each other in online as well. So [01:31:30] you are doing this in Texas. What do you know about how similarly or differently things are handled in other states?
[01:31:38] Jonathan: I know that a lot of states are using the same or very similar training [01:31:45] framework, and I wanna say it's somewhere around 30 states are using some version of behavioral threat assessment type program That is, that is like ours based on the, the FBI and the Secret Service. Training materials. I could be wrong about that total [01:32:00] number of states, but I believe I, I believe that is pretty close.
[01:32:05] Jonathan: And, and in the cases that, that that those states are using the same training material I would, I would imagine that their policies and procedures look very similar because it [01:32:15] comes straight out of the, the training material as designed for by the, uh, the Secret Service and the FBI. Beyond that, I don't know too much more specific detail, and I know there are a lot of of states that are not [01:32:30] using, you know, at least somewhere around maybe 20 states that are not using that type of program currently.
[01:32:36] Jonathan: So I wish I had more specifics on that. Uh, there's just so much to know about what's going on in the state right here. And especially in a year like this [01:32:45] year where we have legislative cycle and now we've gotta get in and figure out, okay, what are all the implications for Senate Bill 12 on the behavioral threat assessment process and on serving McKinney-Vento students and on general mental health support.
[01:32:59] Jonathan: There are [01:33:00] not a lot of time to look at other states. It's a pretty full job.
[01:33:03] Stephanie: Well, you're doing a lot and thank you for what you're doing. I was thinking about, I, I can't remember where I saw some ridiculous question from someone in the peanut gallery on, on some post, but [01:33:15] some, someone wrote something about, well, how many, you know, acts of violence have you prevented?
[01:33:20] Stephanie: And I'm thinking about, you know, the whole point of prevention is that things don't happen, and we really have no way of knowing how many [01:33:30] lives that you've saved. But I, I wanna thank you for saving those lives.
[01:33:34] Jonathan: There were a hundred, around 120 attacks. Planned between 2010 and 2020 I believe that were [01:33:45] successfully prevented.
[01:33:46] Stephanie: Oh, wow. So you do have data on that. That's amazing. And just in Texas?
[01:33:51] Jonathan: No, that was nationwide.
[01:33:52] Stephanie: Okay. Na,
[01:33:53] Jonathan: nationwide, according to the Secret Service in the FBI, at least 120 attacks that we know of were averted, [01:34:00] uh, in that decade between 2010 and 2020. And so what you're saying is exactly on target that the, if we are doing a good job, we won't know and take that even further.
[01:34:10] Jonathan: So the number one job of the team that performs [01:34:15] behavioral threat assessments is not performing behavioral threat assessments. The number one job is to put programs in place that support the development of positive school culture. And as marriage and family therapists, we know like the [01:34:30] culture and the conflict temperature in the family produce behavioral outcomes.
[01:34:36] Jonathan: Among the children in that family. And so we want to have low conflict temperature and we wanna have a good family culture [01:34:45] in order to reduce those negative behavioral outcomes in kids at home. And I'm not, when we talk about schools, I'm not talking about schools replacing parents. I tell counselors all the time, I cannot replace what a parent would provide to a [01:35:00] student or a client ever.
[01:35:01] Jonathan: I can supplement a lack that they've experienced, but it, it will never amount to replacing it. But I tell them we can at least create a culture in our school where we have the greatest [01:35:15] likelihood possible that a student would feel comfortable coming forward if they were to learn concerning information about a classmate.
[01:35:23] Jonathan: And even better than that, we make craft an atmosphere that invites a student [01:35:30] whose home life is. Really, really difficult to connect and plug in at school such that school really is the safe place for them. And they, they never get further than a thought or two down the road of being on a pathway to violence.[01:35:45]
[01:35:45] Jonathan: And so that's why the, the job of that team is first and foremost to pay attention to culture and they try to help produce positive culture. 'cause the rest of the, the program won't work if you don't have a good open environment [01:36:00] of communication and trust that's there. And so that's, that's kind of a core reason why I'd make an argument for some reasonable amount of mental health support in a school.
[01:36:09] Jonathan: 'cause some school districts are, are relationally dysfunctional, just like some families are [01:36:15] relationally dysfunctional and they will not be able to become relationally functional without support. And so. Some of those good SEL programs that I referred to earlier that are out there that do exist they [01:36:30] aren't chockfull of indoctrination, uh, are part of a plan that can help make a very functional relational environment that can stop attack planning way upstream, that can give students [01:36:45] alternative models for healthy relationships that they can imprint in themselves and use to break their own intergenerational cycles of conflict, divorce, [01:37:00] addiction things like that.
[01:37:01] Jonathan: And, and those students, like those McKinney-Vento students I talked about, their families aren't gonna take them to, to treatment or even think, Hey, that might be a good idea sometimes. A lot of the [01:37:15] time. And so sometimes the school is the entity that should not be doing that treatment, but that is best positioned to find the student who could benefit from help and nudge the family a little bit.
[01:37:27] Jonathan: Go, Hey, I think you could benefit. I think your student could benefit from a [01:37:30] little counseling. Can we connect them with this agency? Which, which in itself requires a little bit of training and a little bit of awareness in, in mental health topics and in intervention, even just how to talk about those things.
[01:37:42] Jonathan: And so, so that's where I really see [01:37:45] the kind of the indispensability tying into this whole process is is we need a, a certain amount, we need enough skill and training in districts to, to help restore students to readiness for academic functioning in the short term. [01:38:00] And to know when, where, and how to refer and connect to outside agencies who can hopefully be that treatment and total recovery entity.
[01:38:11] Jonathan: For those students.
[01:38:12] Stephanie: Well, I think you've made a beautiful [01:38:15] case for that sort of just right balance of mental health support in schools and, and what that should look like. And thank you so much for your excellent work.
[01:38:24] Jonathan: I'm, I'm honored by that, Stephanie. And thanks for the chance to just get in here and, and talk about all [01:38:30] this and and, and just to let people know that it's, it's not all like a hairy mess of, of ick and ideology out there.
[01:38:39] Jonathan: There's a lot of really powerful good work that happens out there, and I, I get to sha a [01:38:45] spotlight on that, so thank you for that.
[01:38:47] Stephanie: Thanks so much, Jonathan. It's been a pleasure. Oh, and let's remind people where they could find you.
[01:38:52] Jonathan: Yes. Oh, thank you. So I am on X and my handle is at Systemic Textism and [01:39:00] I am on Substack at the same handle at Systemic Textism.
[01:39:05] Stephanie: Alright, thank you for listening to you Must Be Some Kind of Therapist. If you enjoyed this episode, kindly take a [01:39:15] moment to rate, review, share, or comment on it using your platform of choice. And of course, please remember, podcasts are not therapy and I'm not your therapist. Special thanks to Joey Rero for this awesome theme [01:39:30] song, half Awake and to Pods by Nick for production.
[01:39:34] Stephanie: For help navigating the impact of the gender craze on your family, be sure to check out my program for parents. ROGD Repair. Any [01:39:45] resource you heard mentioned on this show plus how to get in touch with me can all be found in the notes and links below Rain or shine. I hope you will step outside to breathe the air today in the words of Max Airman.
[01:39:59] Stephanie: [01:40:00] With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful [01:40:15] [01:40:30] world.