From Maine with Love: Rob Tod of Allagash White

In this episode, Rob Tod shares the fascinating history of Allagash Brewing, from its humble beginnings to its status as a craft beer pioneer. We delve into the company's innovative brewing practices, barrel-aging adventures, and commitment to community and education. Whether you're a beer enthusiast or industry veteran, Rob's insights will inspire your own brewing journey.

Key Topics:

• The origins of Allagash Brewing and its early challenges (200 years from Maine, 1995 founding)
• The impact of DC's craft beer scene on Allagash's growth
• Balancing bottle versus can: Rob's perspective on tasting differences
• The significance of barrel aging in creating complex, spontaneous fermented beers like Curio and Interlude
• The evolution of small-batch experimentation at Allagash, including pilot batches on a 10-gallon system
• The company's approach to launching small batches and festivals like Saison Day to educate and celebrate
• Strategies for perseverance and growth through industry challenges over 28 years
• The future of Allagash: innovation, new styles, and continued community engagement
• Personal anecdotes from Rob’s trips, including Belgium, Fort Kent, Maine, and iconic DC breweries

Resources & Links:

• Allagash Brewing
• Saison Day at Bluejacket
• Curieux – Barrel-Aged Tripel
• Interlude – Wild Fermented Beer
• Jim Beam Bourbon Barrels
• Belgian Beer Festivals

Community & Events:

• Black Brewers' Cheers & Beers with Metro Bar - May 22
• Friday Beer Share at Right Proper, Brookland - May 20

Follow what's happening in the DC scene at DCBeer.com and @dcbeer on social media. Support us at Patreon.com/DCBeer

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Creators and Guests

Host

Brandy Holder

This southern girl got a late start in the beer world, but with such a bold and intoxicating personality behind the name, booze was destined to be a part of her endeavors.

Host

Jacob Berg

Jake’s beer education began when his dad brought home a 6-pack of Brooklyn Lager in the mid-90s. It was love at first sip.

Host

Mike Stein

Michael Stein is President of Lost Lagers, Washington, DC’s premier beverage research firm. His historic beers have been served at the Smithsonian’s National Museum of American History and the Polish Ambassador’s residence.

Producer

Richard Fawal

President of DC Beer Media LLC and Publisher of DCBeer.com and The DC Beer Show

What is The DC Beer Show?

The official podcast of DCBeer.com! Everything you need to know about the people, places, and brews that make the DMV America’s best beer scene, including the best local places for eats, brews, trivia, live music, and more! Learn about the latest trends in craft beer – from the beers, to the breweries, to the business – from the editors of DC Beer.

JB (00:06)
Welcome everyone to the DC Beer Show. We're at DC Beer across social media. Mike Stein, what's in your Stein tonight?

Michael Stein (00:13)
Well, I'm having appropriately for this episode, Allagash White, the beer that started it all in some ways, ⁓ from Maine with love indeed. Jake, what are you enjoying?

JB (00:26)
Haters will say it's fake, but I am also celebrating Alagash, except it's also Black History Month. And so I have procured here from the back of my fridge, the very last can in existence of the Alagash Sankofa, barrel and flow, woven in time, dark beer with smoked maple syrup.

Brandy (00:42)
⁓ whoa.

Rob Tod (00:44)
⁓ cool.

Brandy (00:49)
⁓ how did it hold up? okay.

JB (00:51)
Let's find out. While I

QAQC this, Brandy, what are you drinking tonight?

Brandy (00:58)
Well, I'm currently, well, I guess I'm technically not double-fisting yet, because I haven't quite opened this can. I'm finishing my Lost Generator, ⁓ if you couldn't assume where it's from. It's from one of my favorite local breweries ever, ⁓ Lost Generation. And it's a Doppelbach. After dinner, I wanted something a little bit on the sweet side, more malty. But because I just announced the other halves,

Women and craft beverage panel that's gonna happen on March 19th. I Wanted I'm about to crack open the law generation and the brew shop in Arlington Julie and Beth their collaboration beer, which is a West Coast style pills So I'm gonna crack that open right now I just got beer everywhere ⁓ Whoops I would like to know

what our very, very special guest is drinking. I was so excited to finally meet this person in person last year at Churchkey. And it was for a tap takeover. This person is, one of the most amazing beer industry celebrities.

he founded one of the best and biggest breweries in the United States in Maine in 1995. would like everyone to give a huge round of applause and open ears to our dear friend and some very special guest, Rob Todd. Hi, Todd. Rob Todd from Allagash.

Rob Tod (02:32)
How's it going? Thanks for having me.

Brandy (02:34)
Good, thanks. Thanks for coming on. I was shocked that you agreed to come on our little tiny podcast, but you yourself, Allagash has a podcast, so that's really cool.

Rob Tod (02:44)
We do. Yeah. And of course I

wanted to join. mean, DC beer crew, like, I'm we'll talk about it, but DC has been a very important part of Allagash's history. It's one of the first states that we went into outside of Maine. I think we've been selling beer there, I want to say 28 years or something like that. So it's been a, it's been a big part of our history and our brand and my like experience and evolution. I've had so many.

cool nights down in DC going back decades.

Brandy (03:20)
It's pretty cool. mean, you have, there's an Allagash day every year that we celebrate at church key or a blue jacket rather. And it's just a lovely time. So what are you drinking from?

Rob Tod (03:32)
Well, I got something in common with Mike. I'm doing Algesh White out of the bottle too. I go back and forth between bottles and cans. I would say 80 % of the time, cans these days, I usually pour it into a glass, but ⁓ every once in a while I'll just get on these bottle kicks. I've got a neighbor that only drinks it out of the bottle. So whenever I'm over at his house, I get...

Brandy (03:35)
Nice.

Rob Tod (04:00)
on bottle kicks on a bottle kick now.

JB (04:02)
Rob, do you think you can taste the difference between a bottle and a can?

Rob Tod (04:08)
No. ⁓ and I, I know that because we have very scientifically determined that if you, mean, obviously if you're drinking it out of a can and drinking it out of a bottle, it's a totally different experience. Like completely. If you, you know, ⁓ a well-stored bottle, a well-stored can, if you rouse the yeast, pour it into a glass and blind taste it. You know, we've done that with our

very rigorous sensory program and can continually do it and you can't tell the difference. It's identical.

Brandy (04:47)
want to just say that I've only been to Allagash once and it was the only time I've ever been in Maine and it was the most delightful time. I was there for my birthday, which is July, and this one particular year, apparently it was one of the hottest summers in Maine and we went to

probably 15, 20 breweries in the span of like four days. And the only brewery that had air conditioning was Allagash. So we had, we just like drank so much beer at Allagash and enjoyed the air conditioning while we were there. So thank you for having air conditioning.

Rob Tod (05:38)
Well, you're welcome. you know, right when you said you came up to Maine and had a wonderful time, you know, if you were referring to weather, was right off the bat. I was like, well, you probably didn't come in like December, January, February or March. So because right now it's it's in the single digits outside. It's cold.

Brandy (05:54)
Yeah, well it-

just think I just bring the heat. It's just me. Anyway.

Rob Tod (06:04)
That's what everyone tells me when I travel. We sell beer down in Florida and I was just down there a week and a half ago visiting my mom and seeing some distributors and it was the day I left it was 37 Fahrenheit and everyone was blaming me. They're like you brought the cold weather down for Maine.

Michael Stein (06:04)
It is an interesting.

Well, as the saying goes from Maine with love, ⁓ and we love seeing you here in the district. Rob, last time you were in town, ⁓ as Brandy mentioned, ⁓ she saw you at church key. I think not too long before that. I actually saw you at the brew shop. hilariously Brandy's having a lost generation beer, brood and celebration with the brew shop for their anniversary, their 10th anniversary now. ⁓ so it was just wild to have you drop into the store.

with the distro or maybe with your Allagash sales rep and, ⁓ Beth and Julie, are co-owners of the brew shop, we're kind of just like gobsmacked like Rob Todd's in market and he's just doing market. He's just checking on the product. Is that a common occurrence for you to check on Allagash in these various markets?

Brandy (07:05)
Yeah.

Rob Tod (07:13)
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, I remember that and ⁓ I do that all the time. It's one of the things I love about this job is, I mean, it's like every one of my days is different. And of course, a day like that's much different than a day like today where I was at the brewery. ⁓ But I love getting out in the trade for a ton of reasons. know, it's important to just get a feel for what's going on in the industry, for how our beer is tasting.

I love talking to the owners and decision makers at the off-premise accounts, the on-premise accounts. ⁓ And I love visiting local breweries when I'm in the trade. mean, usually if I'm hitting a market, I'll hop in the car with one of our reps ⁓ who ⁓ sells in that local area. Yup, Abby. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'll hop in the car with Abby and we'll be out hitting accounts.

Brandy (08:03)
B.

Rob Tod (08:12)
I'll absolutely try to get in a couple local breweries and, you know, just chat with the owners about how things are going in the industry, what's going on in the industry. And it's just a great way to stay connected. It's luckily a very collaborative business, as you all know. So, yeah, I love getting out in the trade, spending time with our retailers, distributors, other brewers, you know, our reps in the market. So it's fun. I love doing it.

Brandy (08:43)
Before we get into more technical and in-depth beer questions from my fellow beer nerds, I wanna just, it's not even a question, it's just my observation. You have been doing this for such a long time. You started the game, really, ⁓ and yet you remain so kind and approachable and like a team player,

think what I find the most beautiful about you

is that you are so kind and so willing to be there for other people in the industry. And you're just humble about it despite your, but despite Allagash being Allagash, right? And I just think that's really, really, really cool. And I wanted to thank you personally for being a cool, really fucking cool beer person. yeah.

Rob Tod (09:40)
Well, thanks. I mean,

our purpose is brew with integrity and build community and, you know, community. It's important to us. And I mean, when we were getting started 30 years ago, there was a community of brewers that was there to that was there to help us. And, you know, whenever we can help brewers in the community getting going up here or in different parts of the country, we're we're happy to do it. You know, our retailer depart. ⁓

partners and distributor partners and you know, customers, they've supported us for years and I don't take it for granted. I mean, when I started in 95, we started making a beer that tasted completely different than anything had ever, anyone, you know, than anything anyone had ever tasted before. Or most people, it looked different, it was cloudy and I couldn't give it away. you know, back.

Back then it like it meant a lot to me when someone would actually buy our beer and that that hasn't gone away. I mean if I Am sitting down, you know at a at an airport Drinking our drinking our beer and another customer it just happened to me I was at Logan Airport at the legal seafoods and if someone a couple seats over from me I bought an alagash white and I was like I want to put that guy's beer on my tab just because it's just it doesn't get old for me because

Brandy (10:41)
You

Rob Tod (11:06)
That first 10, there was so much, the first 10 years was such a grind and, you know, I just think that appreciation of support, it sticks with you.

Brandy (11:20)
Hot, love it.

Michael Stein (11:22)
Yeah.

JB (11:22)
So what

can you tell us about the grind in DC? Like selling it at the Brick Skeller, at the Reef, at beer bars here?

Rob Tod (11:31)
The re I was just going to say the reef.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, those, were fun days. There was, that was back in the day where each city had like one or two or three craft beer bars. It's kind of hard to imagine now because you can buy craft beer everywhere or maybe not everywhere, but in half half the accounts you go into, but back 25 years ago, each city had like

Like I said, one or two or three ⁓ beer bars in D.C. You know, it was Kramer Books and The Reef, The Brick Scaller, ⁓ The Big Hunt, ⁓ you know, and a number of other, a number of others, too. You know, Pizzeria Paradiso. I'm sure I'm leaving. I'm sure I'm leaving a few people out here, but ⁓ there weren't that many. mean, I could come into D.C. and basically see every single one of our accounts.

which were the big craft beer bars in a day. ⁓ mean, I could never do that. I could never do that now. I couldn't cover that much ground. ⁓ But yeah, it was fun. And because there were so few places that carried our beer, we ended up just with very close relationships with everyone in those places, like Dave at the Brick. I mean, I did tons. I don't know if you all ever went to those nights at the Brick where

you know, a few brewers would go up on the stage and, ⁓ you know, they ended up being pretty wild bites because we drank a lot of beer up on the stage and just kind of had a panel and talked about beer or those events at the Reef. I every time I came to DC back then, I probably did an event at the Reef with Drew and Brian and they were fun nights for sure. But we really built, we built the beer.

business in DC at those accounts, those accounts just loyally poured us for years and years and years. And then finally the brand got momentum in it. It took off and you know, unfortunately a lot of those accounts aren't around anymore. And some of the people aren't around anymore too. was a long time ago.

Brandy (13:44)
Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Stein (13:46)
Yeah. Yeah.

You mentioned, ⁓ the big hunt, which is no longer in business. And sadly, Dave Coleman, friend of the show, who was the beer manager there who co-founded three stars brewing company. Yeah. We can raise a glass to Dave. ⁓ but I'm, curious to Dave, to Dave Coleman. I'm curious, Rob, what you recall of 2001. we know as was written in the trade press, shall we say at the time that

Brandy (13:48)
Yeah.

Dave, yeah.

Cheers to Dave.

Dave Colbin.

Michael Stein (14:15)
2001 was your first appearance on the dais at the BrickSkeller. What do you remember about 2001? This is 25 years ago at this point.

Rob Tod (14:26)
So I, so that we must've been in DC for a few years. So that was just the first time we were doing an event at the, at the brick. Yeah. I remember it. I remember it fairly well. The one thing I really remember was when our, our distributor, I remember I flew from Manchester, New Hampshire down to Baltimore on Southwest. was just the cheapest flight I could get down there. And, ⁓ I was staying at the brick sculler. I don't know if you all ever stayed at the brick sculler, but.

⁓ I remember I'm forgetting the guy's name. worked for our distributor. can picture him exactly, but he picked me up. And one of the first things he asked is he's like, you know, where are you staying down here after the event tonight? And I said, I said, well, I'm, know, while I'm standing at DC, I'm staying at the bricks gallery. He looked at me. He's like, well, maybe for the first night, he goes, you may want to move on to some other accommodations after that. yeah, I stayed, I stayed right at the brick. ⁓

Brandy (15:15)
Hahaha! ⁓

Michael Stein (15:15)
Ha

Brandy (15:18)
you

Michael Stein (15:24)
Yeah.

Rob Tod (15:25)
You

know, it worked out just fine. didn't have super high standards back then. But it was a lot of fun. mean, those events were so cool. And Dave did so much to promote craft beer and introduce it to, you know, probably thousands of people. I mean, I remember doing those events. Hundreds of people would show up and sit in audience. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a video of that night.

Brandy (15:29)
You

Michael Stein (15:29)
Sure, sure,

well.

Mm-hmm.

Rob Tod (15:53)
because they definitely video some of those.

Michael Stein (15:57)
We'll give a read through and try to find some. ⁓ But I can say in 2001, ⁓ it's a fine line between a roach rat motel and a down home, ⁓ home cooked meal with a roof over your head. Of course, the Brick Scaler famously is just ⁓ above DuPont Circle. ⁓ And then Pizzeria Paradiso, what's sort of the flagship

Pizzeria Parody says just around the corner. This was belovedly called the Gayborhood because it's where the P Street Gay and Lesbian Alliance launched DC's first Pride Parade ever, which is a huge part of the fabric of the city. ⁓ But in 2001, ⁓ you know, we had Mayor Marion Barry sign the Brewpub law. Of course, it was not at all. It was an omnibus.

Rob Tod (16:39)
Yup.

Michael Stein (16:51)
but it made brewing sort of legal, small scale brewing legal again in DC because up until 19, I forget if it was 95 or 97, the last brewery was actually a commercial brewery, the Christian Hyrick Brewing Company producing about 200,000 barrels a year. Well, of course that all changes with Capital City, but I'm wondering, had you ever checked out Capital City or there were some others around that time, the District Chophouse, John Harvards, all of whom have since closed, unfortunately.

Do you remember either there or in Baltimore, any of these early sort of salad days of breweries?

Rob Tod (17:24)
I mean,

the only one that jumps out at me was Brewers Art, which in Baltimore, but none of the other places you mentioned, I don't think I ever visited. And I heard Brewers Art might be closing. Yeah, that's a, that's a, that was a cool place. I do remember going to that spot in the nineties and like in the late nineties, cause I.

Brandy (17:29)
Mmm.

Michael Stein (17:38)
That is a sad reality. Yeah. Yeah.

Brandy (17:38)
They did. They did.

They've already, yeah.

Rob Tod (17:52)
Jeez, I think they might have even opened before I did. I we opened in 95. But I remember visiting, think Volker was his name that was either the brewer or the owner. I can't believe I remembered remembering that name from the 90s. Yeah, yeah, really nice guy. ⁓ yeah, that was a cool spot. But I didn't visit any of those other breweries in DC back then.

Brandy (18:01)
Yeah.

Yeah, Volker.

Michael Stein (18:19)
Yeah. Well, certainly a huge part of DC then and now is the off-premise. and, and you've seen a lot of development in the off-premise, you know, every April we have Saison Day to look forward to. ⁓ and the last couple of years for Saison Day, you know, this is Allagash's sort of wonderful showcase of Saison. ⁓ we've had it at Blue Jacket and we've had incredible beers like

Rob Tod (18:25)
Yes.

Michael Stein (18:46)
Belfi is which is a spontaneous and says on blend ⁓ the French style wild says on rum barrel age, golden ale, ⁓ snow report, ⁓ all of these incredible beers. I'm assuming these are very small batch and we are lucky to have them in DC talk us through these small batch says on and the idea behind says on day and why we're so lucky to get them in DC.

Brandy (18:54)
⁓ that was good.

Rob Tod (19:13)
Well, Cezanne Day, it's funny, because we came out with our first, well, we had probably done smaller batch Cezannes before we came out with a, like, I'll put air quotes, Cezanne. We had an Allagash Cezanne, which we released, I'm not sure how many years ago, a dozen or so years ago. And I think most people looked at that and they'd never even seen the word Cezanne. You know, they had no idea what it...

what the style was, even though the style itself is kind of a loose style, but they, just weren't familiar with it. They didn't know what they were going to get when, you know, if they bought it. And so we came up with this idea, like, okay, let's try to educate people as much as possible. Cause we love this style of beer on like what these beers are all about. So we'll come up, we'll come up with this thing called says on day and, ⁓ really what it's, it really started like this, but it's, it's.

I think it's continued its momentum because we choose ⁓ different markets that we sell beer. so San Francisco and Chicago, LA, DC, New York. So in markets that we sell beer, the really cool thing about, I think, this festival, it's like kind of transcended Cezanne's in that we'll choose a local partner like Blue Jacket.

host the event there. So it's a really cool way, you know, just getting back to how collegial this industry is. We'll be able to spend time with, you know, someone else, another brewer in the industry in all these different markets all over the country. And we kind of divide and conquer like all, I haven't gone to them in the last few years, because I've had some conflicts, but I have done a number of them and they've been a lot of

they've been a lot of fun. we, so we'll host them at, you know, friends of ours breweries. And then those breweries along with us, we'll invite other brewers. So everyone kind of brings Cezanne and just kind of celebrates and you know, unfortunately the style really, it never took off like we were hoping. ⁓ But it's, it's such a cool style of beer. And I mean, when we were brewing it, that was a

Definitely you'd commonly see brewers like leaving with a case of saison over over their shoulder for their weekly beer weekly beer rations But yeah, so even though we don't make a beer called saison anymore will occasionally make some small batch saisons Which I'll get to in a second ⁓ And this just tradition of saison days continued and I I think it will I think we'll keep doing it. It's a lot of fun

And yeah, so mean, batch sizes can really vary. We've got this really cool program at the brewery where if anyone has an idea for a beer, doesn't matter if you're in the like finance department, sales, production, logistics. ⁓ If you have an idea for a beer, you can work with our pilot brewing team to brew a batch on this little 10 gallon system. And we run that 10 gallon system. Hey, there's openings all the time, you know.

Brandy (22:26)
my God, can I come work for Allagash? Okay, that's so cool.

Rob Tod (22:33)
⁓ but

we'll run this system twice a week. like a hundred brews a year. And so there's like a hundred unique recipes coming off this system every year. We've been doing, doing this for over a decade. ⁓ so you can just imagine the number of, of unique. Recipes. And then we can make two five gallon kegs with it. It goes on tap at the brewery. And we actually have a pretty scientific database way of recording people's.

experiences with these beers. Everyone has an app on their phone and they'll try it at the pilot taps and we record the data. So yeah, so we do these little 10 gallon batches. Those generally don't get sold just because the quantity is so small, but there have been times where we've brewed like three or four 10 gallon batches and put it on tap in our tasting room. And then we do have a smaller brew house that we can do 15 to 30 barrels on.

So we have some smaller runs for sure that can come off that system that we run a couple days a week.

Michael Stein (23:42)
Yeah. And then just looking at the list, there's no expense spared between rum barrels or fooders or wine barrel. Like all of these casks are no small expense to whatever breweries making them. Um, but I have here, uh, uh, curio, which is an entirely different barrel age beer, but you must have invested a significant amount of time into your cupra gin, your

know, your wooden casks or punch ins or hogsheads, all the, you know, the different sizes, ⁓ walk us through a little bit how, you know, barrel age and wood came about, ⁓ you know, from a brewery that you're just at one point, happy to see folks paying for your beer.

Brandy (24:28)
you

Rob Tod (24:28)
Yeah,

it's so funny like the segue because I was literally about to open a bottle of triple. I just finished my white and you pulled out the bottle of curio. So.

Brandy (24:39)
is the best Segway person ever. That

should be his nickname, Mike Segway Stein.

Rob Tod (24:45)
Mm. ⁓

Yeah, I was literally just grabbing the triple, which I should be drinking this out of a glass, but I forgot to bring a glass. I'm down in our basement now, so I'm gonna drink it out of the bottle. ⁓ So yeah, that Curio you mentioned, that is this triple here, aged in Jim Beam bourbon barrels. so that beer kind of kicked off our barrel aging program, and it really has expanded from there. mean, we started making this beer,

I should remember the date. I'm not going to be able to, but it's got to be 20 years now or maybe even more than 20 years. We've been making the Curio and you know, that started with just two, we ordered two Jim Beam bourbon barrels and ⁓ it's a little bit of a long story, but it ended up, the barrels ended up with triple in them, totally transformed the beers. You know, we we loved the flavor and the aroma. And then,

I think our second, the second beer we did, which is another long story, the interlude, which actually was loosely based on like a kind of stronger saison. And it ended up with the Britannomyces ⁓ infection that made its way into it. That, I mean, this brett tasted amazing. It was like not the like horse blankety kind of caddy brett, kind of coarse brett, but this like really wonderful like soft

fruity Brett and we just like fell in love with this beer and dried it out. ⁓ But it also was very fruity and we felt like it really like needed to be aged in in wine barrels. So we got some French oak wine barrels. ⁓ Some I think they're cab Cabernet Sauvignon barrels. ⁓ So that was the first beer we aged in wine barrels and then we started making the spontaneously fermented beers, you know.

got more wine barrels and then got a mix of different footers that had been used for cordials and wines. so ⁓ we've just got a ⁓ pretty significant and varied collection of barrels.

Brandy (27:07)
So did that one accidental batch that got the bread in there, was that the launch of the sourd program basically? Not sourd, but the farmhouse funky fermented ones? Did that launch that?

Rob Tod (27:25)
Yeah,

it was kind of the unofficial, it was kind of the unofficial launch of those. That was the first wild beer that we did, the Interlude, and it was purely by mistake. So the Curio, our first barrel-aged beer was like, that beer came about kind of by mistake, by accident. The Interlude came about kind of by mistake, by accident. And we of course isolated that Brett culture and now we use it for different beers.

Brandy (27:33)
That's so cool.

Rob Tod (27:52)
⁓ And then we started making the spontaneously fermented beers in December of 07. So we're coming up on almost 20 years of of spontaneously fermented beer. So we've been making these beers for a long time. Yeah, the Curio actually must go back ⁓ well over 20 years.

Brandy (28:07)
Nice. That's awesome.

JB (28:13)
I was going to say, ⁓ as a former Maine resident, I think it's been over 20 years because I remember drinking it at Allagash's older, previous brewery ⁓ out there. ⁓

Rob Tod (28:19)
Mm-hmm.

correct.

wow, you stopped by that old brewery. So that would have been before, like we moved in April of 2007. So you probably came by in 2006 or before.

JB (28:30)
Yeah.

So I think I was there in this must have been 2004 or so. And actually Jason was Jason Perkins, your brewmaster was leading the tour. And so I asked him, Hey, how come it's always Jim Beam barrels? And he stopped the tour and just dead pan looked him in the eye and said, we really, really like Jim Beam.

Rob Tod (28:46)
Yup. Yeah.

Yeah.

JB (29:08)
and then continued on the tour. And it's absolutely phenomenal. And so when I got to see Jason a couple of years ago, I brought that up and he went, yeah, I remember that. So good times.

Rob Tod (29:16)
Yeah, boy, the

bird was a lot different back then because in 04, we were probably only making 6,000 barrels of beer a year and we probably only had five employees. And it doesn't surprise me that Jason was doing the tour because we all chipped in back then. We didn't have a tour guide. That was back when people would show up and say, you know, can we have a tour? I'd be like,

All right, let me watch like five more kegs and I'll come show you around or let me finish mashing in or cleaning the water ton or something. So yeah, we all kind of, we all divided and conquered with tours.

JB (29:56)
So was there a moment when like you realized, wait a minute, we made it, we're onto something here in terms of not just sales, but you're visiting other cities and you're seeing more and more beer bars, more and more grocery stores, specialty stores carrying the product. Is there a point you're like, wait a minute, people really like this stuff.

Rob Tod (30:20)
It was, yeah, it was 10 or 12 years into it because I we were, when I started, ⁓ just leased 4,000 square feet in a 10,000 square foot warehouse, which is the one you visited. ⁓ And we probably over the first 10 years grew from around 250 barrels of production, which I just did alone for the first year to maybe 5,000 barrels of production in the first 10 years. It was like very, very slow.

like incremental growth and starting around 06, 05, 06, it started to actually get traction and grow and it felt quite a bit different. I mean, we went from not being able to give it away to actually starting to get kind of busy and running out of space. And that's why we moved into that new facility next door.

in in 07. So it was it was it was a good 10 years before really got any traction.

Brandy (31:23)
of a not personal but a more in-depth question I suppose. It's two parts. Because we have so many new breweries opening and breweries closing sadly within five to 10 years of opening. Looking back on your journey, was there a time that you felt

that, my gosh, this, like, how are we gonna keep doing it? Like, you know, there's always that hill that you have to get over and a lot of local breweries are having a hard time with that. Looking back, was there that moment for you where you were like, is this may not last? And the second part of the question is being the person that you are and having Allagash be around so long and be so successful, what,

What word of advice would you give to breweries or brewery owners that are just opening? What would be your key advice? Like, could you, what would you tell your younger self to? Like basically, which is what you would tell these new guys and girls.

Rob Tod (32:38)
Yeah, well, first of all, you know, was there that time that I was like, geez, I don't know if this is going to work out. Yeah, for sure. Like it was about nine years into it and it was just kind of before things turned around. And I, you know, they probably turned around for a whole litany of reasons. mean, we'd been working away at things like quality and relationships and spending time in the trade and educating people for years and years and years and years and.

and right about at that same time, ⁓ the Belgian beers were really kind of hitting the market. And then just craft beer in general really all of a sudden got embraced for a number of reasons. So all those things kind of coincided and ⁓ we were able to figure it out. But right before that, I would say nine years into it,

Probably around when you were stopped by for your visit in oh four. I you know, I might have been upstairs having that moment so But you know, I'm just bullheaded I until someone just physically like stops me or like completely pulls the plug I'm just gonna keep going and We definitely you know, we ran into a couple problems. We had one loan pulled from a

Brandy (33:31)
You ⁓

You

Rob Tod (33:57)
from bank and ended up being able to refinance at another bank and had a few other things, kind of pretty scary things happen, but we just kept going. always believed in it. And for me, I love it. I love waking up every day. mean, I don't like everyone, you're not.

when the alarm goes off, you're not like, great, I'm going to jump right up out of bed. I mean, it takes me a while like anyone to like actually get out of bed. But once I kind of get going, I'm like, all right, I'm fired up to go into work. Like I love spending time with these people. I love doing what I'm doing. I love working with our distributors. I just, love everything about this industry. So even that's kind of what got us through the tough times. It really is. you know, it's, it's tough to your point, Brandy. I mean, it's

Brandy (34:24)
you

Rob Tod (34:48)
It's tough now. mean, there are very like you really are an exception right now if times are easy. mean, it's whether you're a 20 to 40 year old like regional brewery or whether you're a brewery that's five or 10 or two years old. I mean, it's hard. You've got headwinds coming from just about every imaginable direction right now. Or I don't know if that.

make sense a headwind just comes from one direction. I'll say really strong. Yeah, you the idea right. ⁓ But yeah, I mean, it is hard. But I, you know, I love doing it. And when you love doing something, ⁓ it, it, it's, it's a lot harder to get discouraged when you you love when you love doing it.

Brandy (35:18)
We got your, we got it.

Rob Tod (35:46)
if that makes any sense. ⁓

Brandy (35:46)
That was a wonderful response. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah.

JB (35:51)
So with that in mind...

Rob Tod (35:52)
And you know, we've been

I've been I've been there. You know, the other thing I'd say to to a newer brewer that's going through this, you know, most most of the brewers in this country have only I mean, eight thousand of them, they've only been in business for, you know, five to fifteen years. And really all they've known is is tailwinds and pretty forgiving times like in general, not that they haven't had to work hard, but it's really they know a forgiving industry.

But a good chunk of our history was challenges. It was tough. It was really tough. And so this isn't new to me. This tough environment isn't... I've been here. We've been here. Jason, our brewmaster, he's been at the brewery since 99. And he's been through it too. So we've been there. This is nothing new. It's different. But you figure it out.

You know, you get resourceful and you get scrappy and you figure it out.

Brandy (36:52)
Wonderful.

JB (36:53)
So with

that in mind, what's next for Allagash? Like we've seen loggers, we've seen IPAs, what's coming down the pike? What's the future?

Rob Tod (37:04)
So, you know, I mentioned that pilot beer program. I mean, we're making 100 unique recipes a year on that. And it's a blast. we, so we've got that going. We also get a ton of visitors at the brewery. We've got the main facility where we host over a hundred thousand people a year in Portland. We opened up this really cool.

tasting room down in Scarborough, which is like 15 minutes south of the brewery, like right off the turnpike. So the reason I bring that up is we're, you know, our, our hospitality team's amazing and they like love engaging with customers. So we just spend a lot of time just talking to customers and engaging with them. And we'll, we'll do a lot of just like really interesting, innovative beers, roll them out.

in our tasting rooms and we can get feedback from customers. So they really kind of help guide us for like what's next. ⁓ We came out with, it started on the pilot system. We made a beer with blueberries and then rolled it into our tasting room. Didn't really know what to expect. It was like a huge hit. Like people loved it. So we're like rolling that out on a broader scale.

⁓ we have been doing, we just came out with a logger about a year ago, ⁓ just like a Euro pills logger. We've been making loggers for probably close to 15 years at the brewery. ⁓ mostly just doing a, at the tasting room, but they really got traction and people were really, ⁓ were really interested in them and drawn to them. And, you know, our, our team really liked making them. So we had, we had a logger that, that came out.

⁓ we have a hazy IPA now. ⁓ I don't drink a ton of, a ton of hazies, but I love this hazy. It's really, ⁓ it's not like overwhelmingly bitter at all. It's like very balanced and it's got a really nice kind of fruity hop hop character. ⁓ so I, you know, I love drinking that. ⁓ and it really.

rounds out our portfolio nicely. It doesn't compete with anything in our portfolio. It's very additive. ⁓ So yeah, we have this really cool variety 12-pack. It's got alligash white, which of course it has to have alligash triple, which year over year over year continues to grow for us. And then it just really truly has amazing variety by the addition of a logger, like a Euro pills logger at 5 % and a hazy IPA. So there's like

these four completely different drinking experiences in this variety pack. So I think you'll continue to see us just like listen to what our customers want and whenever there's alignment between what they're asking for and what we're doing with our innovation program, we'll try to get that to market, get that to market quickly.

Michael Stein (40:19)
Yeah, I would posit Jake, the future of Allagash is also the history of Allagash, which is Allagash white. ⁓ and I'll share one parting story, Rob. I have a family in Fort Kent, Maine. So Fort Kent is the first mile being the first mile south of Canada. ⁓ and I have an uncle who has an auto parts shop up there or used to own it. and, ⁓ he, I

Rob Tod (40:31)
wow.

Michael Stein (40:46)
We were in town. They had some alagash. This was before Oh seven, probably Oh six Oh five Oh four. And, was like, gosh, this is great. I love that you guys have this here. And he was like, Oh gosh, this is fine. But I like, and I can't remember if he said gearies or ship or shipyard, but it was, it was another main beer. And, uh, and then we went out to get lobster. There's, there's a, actually a place I can't remember if it's Fort Kent proper or the town next to it.

Rob Tod (40:52)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah

Michael Stein (41:13)
And they had lobster roll and my dad was a huge fan of lobster roll and the, the restaurant only had two beers. had Coors light and Allagash white. And I just said, uncle, uncle Phil, you have to understand some food is just so well paired with some, some beer goes so well with food. And that was like, you know, and now uncle Phil is, you know, an octogenarian. ⁓ but, ⁓ hopefully I put him on to Allagash white sometime. four, five, six.

Rob Tod (41:24)
no way.

That's cool. That's like beautiful country up there. you know, we've, we've it's, it's not right near Fort Kent, but we, you know, we're buying 2 million pounds of grain. We call it the county. It's like, ⁓ Arista County, which Fort Kent is in. And then a lot of our grain has grown, ⁓ near Presque Island, near a, near and in a town called Mapleton.

But it's really, beautiful up there and we've just got these amazing relationships with growers ⁓ up in that area. Jason, our brewmaster and I get up there a couple times a year, ⁓ visit the farms and the malting facility where a lot of our grain is malted. yeah, our brewery has a really important attachment to that part of Maine for sure.

Brandy (42:39)
I'd like to steal one of Stein's questions, but like kind of add onto it. He didn't get to ask it, but I'm very curious. ⁓ So he worded this, what's your favorite place abroad that you've ever had at Allagash White? But I also want to add onto that and say, what's the furthest away from Maine that you have had your beer, that you've enjoyed your beer? And like, was that like a, ⁓ shit, this is a.

dope ass moment like my my I'm having my beer in such and such place way far away from Maine.

Rob Tod (43:12)
Well, we don't do a whole lot of export. We've done very, very limited export. We only sell beer in 23 states right now. We might open up another state or two this year. So we've really been very limited with export, but we definitely do export a little bit. ⁓ But I have definitely had our beer a lot in Belgium because we just have a ton of connections over there.

Brandy (43:16)
okay.

Rob Tod (43:42)
We have a trip to Belgium every year. Employees who have been at the brewery for five years, Jason, you probably all know Jason. Jason, our brewmaster and I, take five-year employees over to Belgium and visit a lot of ⁓ breweries. And some of them we go to them every year. We have really close relationships with them. And there's definitely been times where we've shipped a lot of beer over there. I think for me, the coolest experience ⁓

When we started making the spontaneously fermented beers in 2007, we don't call them lambics. We just out of respect for the Belgians, but it's made just like a lambic, but we just call it spontaneously fermented. But we got invited to the Night of the Great Thirst. And that's an event. It got a little disrupted during COVID, but it's an event that happens every two years just outside of outside of Brussels. And we've

Jason and I have done that event a number of times. And so we ship our spontaneously fermented beers over there. And I think that definitely would be my, this is really cool. I can't believe we're drinking our spontaneously fermented beers alongside these other breweries that we have so much respect for. That's a really cool experience. And it's also just a time of year that's really good to drink beer. It's like, you know, kind of chilly.

50 degrees, 45 degree evenings, like drinking beer outside. It's perfect beer drinking weather. So I think that would be the one that would pop right to mind.

Brandy (45:21)
That's cool. Rob, I want to talk to you for hours, but the show is sadly not hours long. Next time you're in town, we got to get together. Maybe we can do a DC beer, alagash panel night or live podcast night. Just have you talk for two straight hours.

Rob Tod (45:38)
Sounds good. Sounds good.

JB (45:42)
All right, Rob Dodd, Allagash Brewing. Thank you so much. Allagash White, available pretty much wherever they sell beer, because you can buy it in the grocery store here, which is awesome because it's a great beer. Rob, this was canned on July 22nd, 2021. It tastes like it is six months old. Kudos to whoever was working the canning line at your cellaring packaging team in July of 21.

Rob Tod (45:59)
Wow.

JB (46:11)
woven in time is still very well done. That is the one you did with Kofi, with Sankofa.

Rob Tod (46:12)
Yeah, that's what we do with Kofi, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Brandy (46:15)
Yeah.

Rob Tod (46:17)
that was fun. I'm glad that's still drinking good. So that style, I think, holds up pretty well,

Brandy (46:24)
I wanted to quickly remind everybody of our Black Brewers event that is happening with Metro Bar. It's our yearly collaboration event with Metro Bar. And it is Cheers and Beers. it highlights...

many of the local black owned beer brands in the area, including Solmega, Liquid Intrusion, ⁓ Bitter Fruit, and ⁓ obviously along with the Black Brew Movement. And so that's coming up on the 22nd. We moved it to a Sunday because it was so cold. And then our Friday Beer Share is gonna be at right proper in Brookland on that exact Friday on the 20th. So we really hope to see everyone. It is an open beer share, not just members. So come on through.

We want to welcome some new folks ⁓ and get out and be part of the community because beer brings us together. We really need that right now.

Rob Tod (47:19)
No doubt.

JB (47:21)
Amen and well said. are at DC Beer across social media, dcbeer.com, slash Patreon for the support of brewers and drinkers and readers and listeners like you. Thank you very much. And we'll be back here in about two weeks time.

Michael Stein (47:21)
You

Brandy (47:36)
Cheers.

Rob Tod (47:37)
Thank

you. Cheers. Thanks for having me.

Michael Stein (47:39)
See you soon.

Brandy (47:39)
Thanks Rob!