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#dogoodwork is not a label but a way of living.
It is the constant and diligent effort to achieve a new level of excellence in one’s own life.
It is the hidden inner beauty behind the struggle to achieve excellence.
It is not perfect but imperfect.
It is the effort, discipline and focus that often goes unnoticed.
The goal of this podcast is to highlight that drive.
The guests I have on this show emulate this drive in their own special way. You’ll be able to apply new ideas into your own life by learning from them.
We will also have 1on1 episodes with me where we’ll dive into my own experiences with entrepreneurship and leadership.
Every episode is designed to provide you with ideas that you can apply and grow in excellence in all areas of your life, business and career.
Do Good Work,
Raul
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306:
Grant, welcome to the pod
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
Thanks so much, man.
Excited chat.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: everyone
who's listening and doesn't know
about You and your awesomeness.
Can you share a little bit more
about who you are and what you do?
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
Yeah, sure.
So the 32nd summary is that I
run cramp bot process consulting,
no code automation agency.
A lot of people think they
need AI fine tuned models.
It's really usually just like an open
AI step inside of a make automation.
So we're pretty good at that.
And our goal is to help founders and
their teams save time so they can work
on high leverage, innovative things.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: I was
on a round table here in San Diego.
We did an event and one of the
guys there founded this AI company
that supports, I think he's niching
down for the legal system somehow,
like he created something that.
Consolidates a ton of information and like
legal documents and helps in particular,
reduce time to execute these docs.
Long story short, I was brainstorming
like, Oh man, do I need AI for this?
I need that.
And he's Oh, sounds like you
need a spreadsheet in Zapier.
And I'm like, what?
So it's incredible.
So let's dive into that.
This is an obvious stupid question,
but Why AI and then why don't need AI.
And I think there's a, it's
the flip side of that, of we
want to leverage technology.
want to be ahead of the curve.
Where do you see clients get it wrong?
And why are you making it simple?
Like maybe we just use
make Zapier spreadsheets.
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: Yeah.
And first off, no stupid questions.
So happy to answer.
I think from my perspective, there's
this nice little flow chart that I show
a lot of people when I give presentations
and sometimes it's even to leads.
But it's the idea that like an automation
needs to have a structured process.
It does.
It takes place in digital environment.
The quality cannot be well, the
quality will stay high without putting
more technology into the process.
And then further down the decision tree.
It's yeah.
Does is there does there need to be
creative work or is there judgment?
Is there decision making on the inputs?
And traditionally, you need
to have no creative work and
you need to have no judgment.
And that's when something
could be automated.
But now you can jump a few
branches higher into the chain.
When you use a I and I think that the
AI step in an automation accomplishes
a lot of the low level decision making
that pulls us out of our flow states.
And a lot of the kind of
push that I make with people.
Around automation is that yes, there's
the quantitative aspect of we're
saving you minutes, which rolls up to
hours, which was up to, cost per hour.
And therefore you save X
number of dollars per month.
But I also think the qualitative side
is super important that if we can just
remove a few of those micro decisions.
Of how do I categorize this thing?
Or is this a one or a zero binary decision
making that allows you to stay in your
flow state or in your concentration
mode longer, which ultimately
allows you to get more stuff done.
So there's a lot of the
qualitative side of this to that.
A.
I inside of automation.
Allows you to push forward on.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: I like
that you distinguish between inputs
outputs, but then judgment and creative,
obviously on the creative front.
I see some incredible tools
that we can create like lifelike
imagery and lifelike videography.
And I think that's.
Incredibly fascinating to see
how quickly every week there's
something new on the judgment front.
I like that you said that because I
do in my workflows, I do see where,
Hey, can you turn this into a table?
Can you reorganize this format?
Can you derive some key
data points from this?
Or I have a like a sales call review, like
here, though, here are the ways that I
want to structure my executive review for
the sales call or et cetera, et cetera.
So I like that you're mentioning
it's low level judgment.
Where can this go wrong?
I know the creative front is not
perfect, especially for copywriting.
It's still revolutionize your stuff.
But where can this go wrong?
Or where have you seen this go wrong
in either logic for clients or in
real life from other people that you
come in, you look at their workflows
like, Oh, this is jumbled together.
We're doing too much with AI.
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: Yeah,
I think on the copyright and creative
side, I'll just double down and say, do
not let it write your emails for you.
Always put it in drafts and
then make your own decisions and
always read through everything.
So you know that you're sending something
that actually sounds like you But I
think that when it comes to logic,
when people don't give good definitions
of what Category A or Category B and
Category C actually are that's where
you can run into some issues with logic.
For instance, if you have a customer
support ticket that comes in.
And it might get routed to 4 different
teams instead of just saying, it's
the product team versus the UX
versus UI versus to the founder.
It's an urgent thing.
Instead of just like saying here,
my categories put pretty strong
definitions around those things of
a founder should get notified if.
These three bullets are true, and the
UX team should get notified if these
four things are mentioned, right?
Or one of these four things.
The stronger your definitions are,
the better your logic will be.
So I think that's a pretty Important
thing to keep in mind when you're
putting some of these judgment
action steps into your automations,
because if your definitions are bad,
your logic will definitely be bad.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: One of the
things that I'm hearing here too, and I
see this also in my workflows, as you have
to have a very good standard strategy.
To deploy before you can automate.
And I think at least what I find is
people try to go to automation first
without actually thinking, which
is, which sounds silly saying it.
But even have clients that are doing, they
told me, Hey, I know I'm doing tactics.
This is in a separate field.
I don't do the automation piece.
I do more sales and go to market.
Like we're doing tactical things.
I know I'm buying tactical
things, but I need the thinking.
I need the strategy behind the tactics
and I know we need to work with you.
But let me just fill out
these tactical things first.
Do you find the same way?
Like people try to go straight into
let's automate everything without
actually having a strategy behind it.
And how do we get to strategy quicker?
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
Yeah, I 100 percent agree.
And I've honestly started asking
people, even in my first call do
you think that your process is going
to change in the next six months?
And if the answer is confidently no,
then I say, great, let's take a look
at some automation options for you.
But when people will.
Switch their whole invoicing process in
month two of an automation engagement.
The whole thing gets burned
to the ground, right?
It's we gotta start from scratch.
And I've learned the hard way that is,
you're setting yourself up for failure.
If you're thinking that there might
be a change in process, because you
want to lay the tracks, you want to
lay the railroad tracks, one time
for an automation and have it run.
10, 000 times on that track.
But if you're going to move the track
or the track is going to bifurcate
at some point, you're going to
have to lay a new track after that.
So that's a very important question
to ask yourself, or at least to
have your automation partner ask.
Because If you go too soon and you build
infrastructure before, like really long
infrastructure before your processes are
set, you're going to end up wasting time.
And it's been really difficult for
someone like me who knows what can be
built and our processes, we're a young
company, things are changing all the time.
I'm like, I would love to automate
this, but we're still finding our way.
So sometimes it can be frustrating.
Even when I know what's possible,
I'm like, ah, let me give it a month.
Let me make sure this
is not going to change.
And then we can build stuff.
And I'm finally getting to that point
in a few exciting parts of the business.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: talk
about that in just a second.
And, but the precursor is.
There's a, help me understand
the gap between the no code.
Cause essentially you're
doing digital transformation.
And when you do this, the stats I'm
doing, some of my clients are in software
the stats are, digital transformation
isn't always a hundred percent clean,
especially for larger orgs, like fail
rates, 17 percent are black Swan events
and usually fail rates are like 30 to
it doesn't happen across the course, but
help me understand and maybe I know no
code on a no custom software, but are the
lines blurring and more now that we have
the co pilots higher weight ways, way
more intelligent no code tools to go to
execute and actually build code for you.
Like, where is that
inner intersection now?
And what's, where do you see the
future of the custom software side
with the no code solution side?
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
Yeah, I think low code is going to
start to blend into low code and
no code are going to start to blend
into their own the same thing, right?
It's going to be pretty easy for folks
to say, Oh, instead of having six steps
in this zap, I can have two or three.
And the middle one is
going to be a code block.
And that code block is going to
be entirely written by open AI.
perplexity, whatever it is.
I think that's going to become a lot more
common over the next six to 12 months.
And so the convergence of low code
and no code will definitely get there.
And even if you don't know how to code
at all, you can still ask the model
to write it, explain it line by line.
And if the, and then if you run it
and it doesn't do that, then you can
still say, Lines 36 to 40 say they do
this, but the thing didn't do that.
So let's take a look at 36 to 40.
I think that's going to be very
common and par for the course
for a lot of no code agencies.
So I definitely think there's
a convergence happening.
Am I putting all my time
into learning code right now?
No, I think the no code tools are
going to be plenty sufficient and
really your average Joe plus an LLM, I
think you're going to get a lot done.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: Yeah,
and I'm finding that as well.
I know the custom software is down the
other end because it's a specific for
use cases and usually for larger orgs.
And I think, we're going to date
ourselves with this, but like the rise
of agents, I think it's going to happen.
What you just mentioned on the code
solution, like the agent itself will
figure that out to plug the two ends
together with the advanced logic.
Some of the cool things we've been seeing.
Let's dive into one of the things
that you mentioned, especially because
we met, like I mentioned earlier, we
want to integrate AI where we can.
We want to be more effective.
We want to boost profitability by
lowering, working hours or tasks and maybe
do more higher strategic level thinking.
But you also mentioned you
need to have the process.
We need to have the actual
strategy dialed in first.
But there's also the I don't
have everything dialed in.
So how where do we start?
What are the lowest hanging fruit?
Do we have do you have a roadmap or
like a playbook of here are the lowest
hanging fruits for your bigger pieces?
You can automate certain
pieces, but not all of it.
Where should we be looking at when
we're trying to refine and redefine
how we operate using the new tech?
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: Yeah,
I think, we work predominantly with
B to B services, marketing agencies,
law firms, accountants, et cetera.
And there are four main
buckets of opportunity.
It's the CRM to win projects, client
onboarding to launch the projects,
project project management to fulfill
the projects and then invoicing
to collect the project revenue.
So inside of each of those four buckets,
there's a lot that we can do between
picking a tool like HubSpot or ClickUp.
And then just applying it
to its fullest capability.
That's even before you get a
automation system built in, right?
So those two tools, if you get
the foundational data put where
it needs to be, so your company
records are all filled out, your
contact records are all filled out.
Even if you're not, looking at building
the HubSpot workflows or the ClickUp
internal automations, just making
sure that your data is all in the
right place and consistent, I think
is a really good first step to then
use all the features later, right?
And we're not talking about
using any Zapier or Make.
We're not talking about using
any AI in any of this stuff yet.
This is purely Making sure that everything
is filled out the way it's intended.
And then you can start using
the bells and whistles.
And if you're on a tool like ClickUp,
then you've got whiteboarding,
which is a Miro competitor.
You've got a video recording
tool, which is a loom competitor.
So you could actually get even
more bang for your buck if you're
just aware of all the features.
And the same thing goes
for HubSpot, right?
If what's all there, you can get.
The lowest hanging fruit, which is,
I really just think data integrity is
that's the lowest hanging fruit that
a lot of people are ignoring because
once you have all your data in the
right spots, then it's pretty easy to
apply automation when the time comes.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306:
was Salesforce's pitch.
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
Yeah, exactly.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: and
there's a lot of tools that are
doing like the manual entry for you.
Not a sponsor, but like fathom, I know it
could do that for your CRM, just what's
typeless integration within from calls.
I think that's fascinating and that's
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: Totally.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: And to your
point on that, to making sure that
we're fully flexing, I was reviewing.
It's up before this call.
I'm not sure if you have, I'll
talk to you about it after.
Like a thousand bucks a month.
I'm like, okay let's look
what's under the hood.
It replaces other subscriptions
that I already have not fully, but
other subscriptions to outreach.
Email LinkedIn email integration.
Inbound integration, warm signal, like
all these is a sales mechanism tool, but
all these different things, and it was all
packaged in a really competitive price.
It's not, it sounds expensive, but
compared to all the other tools
and how much money I just dropped
in one, just over the weekend
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: Yep.
Yep.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: I think
to, to your point, this is not knowing
how to leverage the technology in
obviously like the time that we need
to learn this, but actually knowing
when you buy a stack, you need to make
sure that you have the foundation set
up because you need to integrate this
tool integrates with specific CRMs.
Are you using that correctly?
Are you filling that incorrectly?
Because when you do that, it like the.
Not a proponent of it, but the Salesforce
pitch of the agent force thing.
I think their marketing's phenomenal.
Sometimes the app can be very difficult
to use, but the way that they're
approaching it is fantastic because
now, since all your data lives there, it
allows you to enable, to use a new tech
in very unique ways that you couldn't
before, but the data has to be there.
You have to be using the right tool
sets first to your point on that.
Yeah.
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
just on a very base case, leveling
up from data to an advanced feature.
If you look at HubSpot, and if you
don't have your tracking codes put in,
you're not using maybe the emails, some
of the email integrations, if those
things are not set up, you can't turn
on lead scores and lead scores are
super easy thing that when the data
is where it needs to be, you just.
Get a number of okay,
they're at 65 out of 100.
They're an MQL, right?
Super valuable if all the
data is where it needs to be.
And so I think that when people are also
looking at complicating their tech stack,
really think about am I getting the most
out of the current tools I'm using, right?
And then if you're not fill out all
the data requirements, fill out all
the data fields and Pro tip, you can
also make it so that you can't move a
deal to a certain stage or you can't do
something unless fields are filled out.
I'm turning that on for myself,
like super valuable, but then
it's all about leveling up.
Set it all up correctly, get someone's
help if you want, but set it up correctly.
Get the next layer feature and then the
ROI that we're coming to the table with
is if you can get HubSpot to talk to
ClickUp, to talk to DocuSign, to talk
to QuickBooks, that's another layer of
ROI before you purchase the next tier of
HubSpot or the next tier of Salesforce.
So another thing to think about there.
Totally.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: Some of my
automations, like it does replace least
the part time role for specific functions
of the company, which isn't to say the
antithesis, it's going to take away jobs.
I think right now it really forces
you to level up in other areas.
And when you hire people, they got to
be at a higher caliber versus, Hey,
I need you to push these buttons and
move these deals or collect this.
Moving on the flip side, you mentioned
earlier that you were looking at,
Improving your processes, improving the
way that you execute your work and on
board clients and work with clients.
I know one of our precursor pre calls.
We were talking about like pricing and the
way that the markets are shifting and I'll
set this up with the frame of I'm finding
and this has been true for quite a while.
But now with the with the rise of new
technology and the rise of getting
quicker, like solutions faster with
AI, it is exasperating the problem.
For anyone who's charging by the hour,
if your agency is hourly billing, like
you will be commoditized if you haven't
been already and run to the ground for
pricing if you haven't been already,
but the AI is accelerating that even
over the last week, I saw a tool.
I'm not sure the validity of this tool.
Cause it's a creative like briefing tool.
It's what, 300 bucks,
something, 150 bucks a month.
So good pricing, but it develops
a creative brief, like strategy
for like creatives or planners
in like larger agencies.
does all the market research for you.
And it delivers this brief so that you
can execute with your marketing team.
That usually takes maybe
two to three weeks.
If you're doing it with a sprint,
this can do it like an hour.
So the time to value in what the tools
are allowing us to do is increase
decrease the time to getting to
value quicker so that we can execute.
Anyway, that's a lot to dive into,
but where, what are you seeing
when it comes to value Pricing,
user economics what are you saying?
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
Yeah, it's a tricky, it's a
tricky business right now.
Cause I think a lot of people
want to apply the tech and
decrease that time to value.
But we also need to think about our
pricing and the way that, teams operate
and if we track time and what's productive
to the business in terms of like revenue
per hour or revenue per employee.
For me, I'm very glad that we
were never on an hourly system.
I think that you're spot on that things
are going to get commoditized if you're,
Making the pitch that my retainer is
going to be 10 hours of someone's time
here or whatever it ends up looking
but we do have to think about how are
we positioning ourselves against the
value you're driving for the company?
One thing I struggle with.
And again, something that we
talked about earlier is we are
inherently cost reductive, right?
In the automation world.
So as I apply a much better project
management system, I'm going to save
hours for the project manager and
everyone below to make sure that things
are getting done on time and in full.
That is reducing costs.
It's not necessarily driving more revenue.
Now, if I'm reducing the time for
each of those roles that allows the
fulfillment team to maybe handle one
or two or three more clients per month,
then there's an to be made about.
Revenue.
Great.
But it's that positioning that becomes a
really difficult challenge to overcome.
And so I think that a lot of businesses
right now need to think about how
am I going to position myself,
whether it be to generate more leads?
Great.
Everyone loves more leads.
But on the automation side, if
you are doing cost reductive
activities, it's the Great.
Expansion of the business
that needs to be prioritized.
And that's a tough, that's a tough
one to make the jump for a lot of
people just have a gut feeling that
their operations are not ideal.
And I don't really know how to
write, does it feel like your
operations suck right now?
Let us help you.
It's that's a tough, that's
a tough one to argue for.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: it.
I think they're, I'm going to
share a framework cause this is
fresh off of my mind that could
help and help conversation.
But I think the bigger piece framework
that will for you're just mentioning are
specific user pain points that they're
facing and applying a metric to that.
So the framework that every
business essentially has three,
three metrics that they care about.
CAC, customer acquisition cost,
which is acquisition like you're not
helping them acquire, but you could
reduce customer acquisition costs.
Second one's profit, and they either
measure it by revenue per employee
what is it, the hours, reserve hours
that they budget out for projects.
A lot of items fall
under the profitability.
And the last one is LTV.
And I think to your point, you are
hitting a lot of profitability and LTV
points, but those are the major categories
that you got to look at the niches that
you're addressing and then specifically
what are, and I'm stealing this from
a client and you know who you are when
I say this, the metric that matters.
I love that they said this because each
client themselves has a metric that
matters to them, even though you might
say profitability is oh, that doesn't
matter, but they might care about.
You revenue per employee, or like
you mentioned revenue per hour.
That's fantastic.
Revenue per minute.
What if the client was like, Oh crap,
I never thought of revenue per minute
the way that you can reframe that
that approach the third part of that
is looking at the key frustrations
that's causing that key metric to fail.
and then everything else is
the positioning part, but
that's one way that I've found.
identify specifically, but you really
need to dive into the metrics that
matter to your specific And maybe because
you're not vertical vertical focus,
we can still like at multiple multiple
verticals and look at it horizontally.
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
that's a really good way to think
about it because for me, just like my
live reaction to that is that if I'm
focused on the metric that matters,
maybe it is time to fulfill or time on
revenue per employee in a given month.
If you can improve project management and
let everyone know what they're working
on and also automate a few steps between,
information coming into a form to A,
project manager being aware of it or
something like that, something that just
gets the ball forward a little bit faster,
then you can expand, maybe we can take on
an extra 25 percent of a customer, or we
can take on another full customer, right?
Depending on start days and things like
that, then you get more revenue for each
brand strategist or for each copywriter.
And then that's how you roll it up,
even though I'm not specifically.
Generating the revenue the space for that,
the revenue to come in is very valuable.
And I just had this conversation
with someone last week where he said,
if we get the ability to handle one
more client next month from this
ClickUp stuff, that's a huge win.
I go, fantastic.
I think we can definitely help just
get you out of Google sheets and
into something that you can see a
chart, that's one of my favorite
things to hear on a discovery call
is, Oh yeah, we run everything.
Google sheets.
And I go, let's chat.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: Spreadsheets
do run businesses, but there's a point
where that's, this is going to break now.
And I love that.
I was talking to a friend of mine.
She's in operations and she was telling
me like all the things, same situations.
Like how do I, people.
They think of operations as a subset
or like an afterthought Oh, I got to go
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: Totally.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: Whatever exam
from the doctor that I don't want to
do the delaying or go to the dentist.
In
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: huh.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: One of
the ways that I flipped it, cause her
main thing is to help the founder,
the leader get out of the day to day.
Like, why don't you just anchor?
Cause of the things that I find,
especially with highly technical teams,
with some of my clients, love you guys
is that they focus on the thing that they
do, but they really don't reframe that
thing that they do in a different light.
That just highlights the, we
actually do it this way so you can
get this outcome in this timeframe.
And they don't make that the
promise versus we're going
to make this thing better.
For example, for her, it was like,
why don't you just run a bootcamp
or you just like guarantee in six
weeks or less, we'll get you out
of the day to day as a founder.
I'd buy that all day.
If I was a founder she
sold me like a thing.
And this is the framework that
I have of like a viral offer.
This is not a viral offer.
This is a product based offer
that stems to your project or
your subscription based offers.
And the product based offer is
not productizing is not templates.
It's not all that crap.
It's essentially giving
an open and close loop.
open loop is I hate the day to day.
And if you close it just by
buying this thing, even if it's
a short term, six week, eight
week, whatever program you want.
That's what I'm finding, by the way, if
they buy this thing, the very act of the
purchase closes the loop in their mind,
just like I bought I didn't buy it yet,
but I downloaded this new app thanks
to our friends that haven't didn't like
That sent me like, Oh, this health app.
I'm like, okay, cool.
I downloaded it.
And I felt like I closed a loop.
Like I got healthier, just downloaded
the silly app, even though I haven't
purchased it yet, but because in my
mind it closes a loop okay, cool.
Now I know how to do this.
Or even for to do's, I think this is
a thing why we are obsessed with to do
lists, because we have all these things
in our mind, we purchase a new to do list.
Oh, we used to have paper and a new
pad and then we write everything down.
And then it's all done.
Nothing's done on the list.
It's just out of my mind and
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: Yeah,
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: And I think
that's how we, I would look at products.
If you're selling a service is creating
a product that closes a loop and it has
to be a dopamine hit and it has to be
just the very act of working with you
closes that loop and then now their
mind can open up to the bigger problem.
The other issue.
That's just what I'm seeing currently in,
in how to stack the offers differently.
And then the backend, and this is
like the craze with subscription
or access level pricing.
You could sell that, but that's
more on the project side based.
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: so let's
try this and help me kick this around.
So for instance, like a
click up thing, right?
Maybe closing the loop in that way
would be know what's getting done
just by having the dashboards, putting
all the data in the right spot,
setting up the instance correctly.
You can go to a single dashboard
and say, I know what everyone on my
team is working on and I know where
the status of the products are.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: To
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: So
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: to
anchor anchoring to the value.
Are your ideal clients already on ClickUp
or are they trying to get into ClickUp?
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
usually they're on Notion and fed up.
So they're trying to
look at something else,
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: Notion is
an amazing tool, but not for teams.
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
Not for project management.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: my
gosh, everyone at Notion, anyone
listening to this at Notion,
respect and love, but definitely.
Okay.
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
Please talk to me if you're that person.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: Okay.
So they're on another tool set and
what are they doing or how much are
they wasting in terms of time, hours,
or there's an emotional toll, then
there's also the business case toll,
like how much is being wasted right now.
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
You can get so granular to say it
takes eight clicks to find the thing
that you're looking for, right?
Because Notion is effortless,
effortless, or endlessly nested.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: Of
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
So I think that totally,
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: eight
clicks and I'm looking for it.
And I don't feel secure.
Like how much time does
that waste in a week?
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: man,
this is one of the things I struggle with.
It's if that's happening just to
find any document that's Maybe
that happens 10 to 15 times a day.
If I'm looking through my wiki,
that might feel right to me.
For an extra, I think the problem is
that for an extra minute to 90 seconds of
clicking through things to find the thing
you're looking for, it's more the breaking
of the flow and the frustration of where
the heck is my thing and those things
I can't roll up into minutes, right?
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: you could,
but I'm anchoring, this is just real
time, high level anchoring it towards
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: Yeah.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306:
minute or whatever, then the flip
side is going to be on average.
you have a transformation
metric for clients?
Like how faster can they find this
or how more confident do they feel?
Or what is one of the, maybe
choose a benefit that you deliver.
And then what's a metric that
you've used to measure that benefit?
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: Frankly,
I haven't thought about it like that.
It'd probably be speed.
Yeah.
Speed to access the thing.
I don't know.
This is why I like talking to you.
You've got great questions.
The last time we, when we did
our pre call, I was like, dang,
I got a lot to think about.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: Solve the
same problem over and over again for
clients, you can't, you get kind of good.
So.
This is high level, obviously this
is at face value, but I think for
everyone listening here, it's really
helpful to look at what are the
pain points that the clients are
facing and how do we measure that?
Cause there's usually two pain
points that we can measure.
One is the quality of life, like
a personal, like what happens
if I don't solve this issue
for me personally, like me as a
Then second, what's the business case.
Cause every time that you go to market,
if it's a product based offer or a
subscription service based offer,
it has to have a business case.
It has to have a solution that.
That's that helps them, which is obvious,
but I think framing in them that way
helps us think about it this way.
But I thought, okay,
Look at 10 documents just to
do my job day, and I waste
maybe two minutes doing that.
And that's realistic.
Cause sometimes we think
we do it in 15 seconds.
Things usually for me take longer, like
for projects Oh my gosh, it's taking
me longer to do this thing to think.
So let's just
Two minutes on average.
And if your team has eight people,
might be wasting 162 hours,
let's say conservatively, 160
minutes, to three hours, just to
say two hours to be conservative.
It takes waste.
If you have eight people, your team
is wasting at least two hours a day.
That's 10 hours a week.
And if that 10 hours a week,
what can we do with that?
Again, I don't know the answer
to that, but what is the benefit?
Could we onboard five new
clients with those 10 hours?
Could we be prospecting and
selling for those 10 hours?
Can we take, this is a realistic thing.
Two more hours of
discovery calls the team.
And then from there, if you do 10
discovery calls and you close, I don't
know, two conservative, I don't like
the word using conservative here, but
conservative, that's two new deals.
You could frame it to that or you
can frame it towards the dollar
amount or you can frame it towards
the time and you wouldn't frame
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: Yeah,
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: ClickUp
because that's showing, that's
selling essentially the hands.
I can do this thing with this,
like I can do these cool things
with this pad and piece of paper.
No one really cares about
that, unfortunately.
They care more about their problems
and what they want to solve.
So it'd be more around in, know,
how quickly can you do this?
Like how long does it take you to
implement from Notion to ClickUp?
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
about two months all in, from
design to implementation.
520?
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: Potentially
say, when get back 10 hours a week, or
you can do this in a year format, like
how much is 10 hours a year, a week in
a year multiplied let me do some live
math for you, you move faster than I
do, okay, then two weeks off, let's just
say 500 hours, what can we do with 500
hours, I think it would be something
interesting to see what can 500 hours
mean to me, because sometimes we hear
these numbers, and we don't know how
long oh, if I told you, going to be 367
feet, You don't even know what to think
about that unless I said, Oh, it's the
size of this building or that building.
We have to tangify that.
But if you can give me
500 hours back a year,
anchor it towards what does that
mean for me based on what I want?
and you could condition it around
the offer saying eight weeks, we will
find a way to get you 500 hours back.
Again, that's the value statement.
We can change that value statement
to something else or either time to
money or employees, or that's the
We can give you two
employees back of payroll.
In eight weeks and if guaranteed,
we don't, we'll work with you
until you do, because you've
A product and that what's weighed, who
is offering that in the market right now?
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: Yeah,
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: One like in the
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
yeah, what's another 500 discovery
calls or whatever it ends up being?
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: And whatever
that, whatever they care about, if
they care about like payroll, cause
that's a huge issue with agencies.
It's Hey, I'll give you back.
I don't know how much 500 hours
is, but I'll give you back eight
weeks or two months or three years.
Something of payroll, like you can anchor
it towards that, or I can give you these
employees or whatever, tangify that.
And the reason why I offer the guarantee,
you don't have to do these guarantees
like money back or something like that.
Silly, but the whole idea is.
And this is something that I stand by
if we believe in the work that we do.
And I'm talking to the audience here.
If we believe in the work that we do,
and that actually gets results for
clients and you're not selling the
results that you actually get, you're
not promising a future that's guaranteed.
You're promising that
you're going to do the work.
If I go to surgery, like I had a
couple of people in my life that went
to heart surgery, open heart surgery.
And if the doctor was like, you might die.
But I hope this works, I'm not going
to go to a doctor, if they explain, and
I actually had a client tell me that
he needed to go under for something.
He's yeah, the doctor told me, there
is a slight risk one in 10, 000, but
I've done these thousands of times.
You're going to be fine.
We're going to do this and you're going to
come back, sell the confidence, sell the
thing that you do and stand by that work.
Cause if you can't stand by your work,
then we're just like the old adage of what
we don't want to be in terms of selling a
snake, but if you are doing good work and
you are actually executing with a, with a.
With the marketplace and
you can stand by your work.
You can just say, Hey, I'm
going to, I promise to do this
work because no one else is, is
standing by their work that way.
Which is why it like gives a higher
believability and your risk rate
will probably be low because you're
going to go through the execution.
You're going to deliver that
clients are going to love it because
they're already like solve the
dopamine issue in the beginning.
And then from there, the
experience obviously should
be good and probably is good.
I think it's a win.
You're just standing out
by making a strong offer.
You're not promising the world.
Like I see online, I'll get a hundred
leads a day and your CRM like no, more
about promising the quality of the
work towards the outcome that they care
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: Totally.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: That's
a pretty cool offer though.
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: Yeah.
I like that a lot.
And it's so I hope it's useful for
the people who are listening to
see how you just rolled that up.
Because from a two minute time saving
or from a additional 10 emails that
go out a day for a different type
of business, maybe, You can see how
these things can roll up to something
really meaningful, even if it starts
with such a granular thing, right?
Like a two minute savings or a minute
and a half, whatever it ends up being
that rolls up to something really
meaningful when you have a team, and
I've never really made that connection
to the eight person team or the 12
person team, the 15 person team, like
that's pretty, pretty serious value
when you roll that all up into a year.
So I hope that's useful for
someone else like it was for me.
I think that framing of start small
with what you The most tangible thing
that you can latch onto and then
apply it to a team, not an individual,
think about a year, not a day.
That's a pretty impactful
way to package a service or
something up and close that loop.
As you said.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306:
And that's why the work that
you're doing also does profit.
It's not just cost savings.
It's significant profit.
If the average, this is again, if they
are employees, et cetera, if they're not
contractors, we work with 2000 hours a
year, I think on average, 20, 80, that's
what the two only two weeks off, if we do
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: Yeah,
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306:
saving a fourth of that.
So there, that's another framing of
put this money back in your pocket.
and then
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: totally.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: for as a
business owner is I can reinvest that
into growth just some ideas around that on
pricing, but that's what I would mention
around the product based front is that you
create some sort of tangible open loop.
And then from there, like I'm curious
on your end and we can just talk
in general terms here if you want.
But.
When they close that loop,
what other problems arise in
their mind by working with you?
Cause usually like I figure out
like, Oh, idea, let's I'm training
for it, like a half iron man.
Right.
I got the plan done, then I
need to solve other problems.
Like what else do I have to do this thing?
What else arises in your
clients, your client's mind?
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
I think the lack of maturity of the
market, it's do I really know that this
person is going to do the work, as you
said, which is why I've really tried to
focus on the social credibility on the
side and making sure the testimonials
focus on typical agency, like problems.
Are they going to communicate?
Yes.
One of the testimonials says
very tight feedback loops.
Great.
Do they care about me long term?
A lot of people hire an agency and are
worried that you work with the founder in
the sales process, and then you're gone.
I'll say making sure that relationship
and that communication is really a focus.
Throughout the entire engagement.
I think the credibility side with
how quickly AI and automation
are coming along, coming online.
There's so many new
entrants to the market.
So it's hard to stand out and
make sure that you communicate
trust on that first impression.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: a lot of sense.
The other thing too, that I find.
Especially with teams
that do exceptional work.
Is it?
It's hard to communicate that like
you like, how do you communicate
exceptional work because they have to
come through the journey with you see that
And every time that they do,
it's like a MVP experience.
And I have clients that
do that same thing.
I think the only way to hook
them in is through that.
Like you mentioned the trust credibility
because essentially your marketing.
It's selling safety, it has to
sell, like it's going to be safe.
And then the offering or the product,
like the front end offering to sell
the transformation so that they
can feel like this is different.
This is not just a set of hands.
And the more unique you make
it to your market, the more
Oh, this is made just for me.
But again, that depends
on your positioning.
If you want to niche down even further,
but yeah, what are your thoughts on that?
I usually who I was taught, I was talking
to Will, if you're listening to this, I
was talking to Will Stevens and he also
asked me this on his podcast is niching
down can be a very hard situation.
Like people tell say to choose one
niche, you can do horizontal niching.
You can do solution based niching.
If you start expanding your
target audience, then you have
to go to multiple industries.
What are your thoughts on niching down?
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: In
my experience, when I thought I was
niching down, I was not doing it enough.
Especially with this productized
service that we have launched recently.
I thought that by saying it's only
going to be on ClickUp, Notion,
Asana, and what was it, Coda.
I'm only going to build this thing on
four different project management tools.
Someone was like do you
like using Asana and Coda?
And I'm like, no, I really just click
up and I'll tolerate notion because
so many people are on it, and he's
okay stay there and that's the niche.
And if they don't use Slack, don't
even have the conversation, just
avoid it because we have to use
Slack and so for this service.
And so I think that when in the
past I've been thinking about, Oh,
am I niching down enough In that
specific instance with the productized
service, not even close, right?
I was allowing someone to do this
customization or that customization,
but I needed their reframe of the
product is this and we'll change
the name on the button here.
And then if they need anything else, we
can provide that because it is automation
and it is still custom, but we're
following a framework and right now.
With your point about solution
based, like I mentioned, marketing
agencies, law firms, and accountants,
all B2B services, all with the
same four buckets of problems.
Now, eventually I would like to get to
the point where I can say, Hey, we've
built the, we built the framework to use.
Panadoc for your signing platform.
This is the template of the SOW.
Are you willing to move it
into make it look like this?
And I think that will allow us to
both provide a higher quality service,
but also Bring that confidence to
the engagement instead of being more
custom and flowing with the wind.
But right now I struggle with this too.
It's I think that I've got a
pretty good niche within this.
Solution based framework of the four
buckets of work for B2B services.
But I easily could go into
specifically, short form video agencies.
Cause there are so many
now you could do that.
Is there, you have to
weigh that pros and cons.
If you are the guy for that, as
the agency for short form video.
Content, are they going to pay you a two
or three X premium for being that person?
Or would you rather.
Flip, invert the ratio, service
more people and drop your price.
And that also gets to the point
that we started this conversation
about with AI and all the
ability to produce things faster.
It's is the premium even
still going to be worth it?
If someone can be a generalist, but
satisfy things in a third of the time.
I don't know.
And.
Do you get more value for doing
it in a third of the time?
Can you now charge more and drop the time
because you're faster and you know what
you're, what playbook you're deploying.
We've done it a two dozen times.
Now we can do it in two
weeks instead of six.
Another question, right?
I think there's a lot of those
things that are all completely
up in the air right now.
We don't really know, in my opinion,
what is going to be that magic formula
of I'm going to be on our retainer for.
8k a month, because I know that we're
going to do this in month one, this
in month two, this in month three,
pause month four, assess, and then
we'll do something from this bucket
of goods for five, six, and seven.
And if you've got it down to
that level of detail, and you're
applying the same playbooks based
on the team's priorities, awesome.
But if you get to the point where you're
so good and you're using AI to the
fullest, and your team is six people
instead of 60, like it used to be.
To execute the same amount of work.
Does that mean that you charge less?
Do you charge more because your
time to value is higher and
you're applying the same skill?
I don't know, man it's an
interesting time with how much we
can compress deliverable times.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306:
I'm glad that you were open
and vulnerable to share that.
Cause yeah, those are on, those are
answerable, but they're fluctuating in
terms of the variable of the answers.
Because we haven't seen the full spectrum.
We haven't seen the winner.
Who's the winner?
OpenAI Perplexity, we got Llama, you got
dozens of other LLMs, including Claude,
or Anthropic, but there's that, plus
the delivery of work, plus compliance,
plus The industries, the only way.
So there's a few things that you said
that I thought were pretty fascinating.
I think that your differentiator is
the four buckets because those four
buckets make it feel like I have
security in terms of the, this is how
you know what you know how to solve
the another way to differentiate
is through the pricing model.
Like you mentioned, it doesn't
have to be always cheaper.
It can just be like,
you're doing it right.
The first time you're doing it right.
Over time, because like you
mentioned, like I know when I set
up this app, it's going to break.
Cause something's always going to update.
Like I had a, just a simple,
silly Google calendars zap and
it broke because Google calendar
Zapier updated and they to legacy.
I'm like, are you kidding me?
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: Brutal.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306:
So there's that.
So there's the maintenance
piece of it too.
The one thing that I do, this could
get another framework to share is we
look at the segments that obviously
align with who you are and your team.
So it has to align with your culture,
but the customer segments where the work
that you do is the most value to them.
So that's the first.
So the first is the culture
in the business model.
The second is the value is there.
Who are you most important to?
Cause sometimes some people don't
value some services or more than
others, or they, so there's that.
But the third is like,
where's the market going?
And I think that's the question.
We don't know the answer to completely,
but we can either look at macroeconomics.
We can look at microeconomics within an
industry, and we can look at regulations
and compliance because some industries
won't be on the AI train until there's
further, further legislation, et cetera.
So the thing is looking at those
key things and deriving and
placing your bets strategically.
And then how do you differentiate?
that future, that's three or five years
out, even though we don't know that
future because everything is speculative.
And then placing your bets off of that.
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
It's a really interesting question,
and one I think about a lot, is
I saw a website where they were
advertising on their support page
that it was human only support.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306:
And you'll get us
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: wild.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306:
you're going to get
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: Yeah,
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: us.
It's the new made in the USA.
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: totally.
And some people are okay, or
want to deal with a robot to get
their thing in 10 seconds, right?
Do I get an answer in 10 seconds?
If not, maybe I'll default to someone
somewhere else in the world, or I know
I'm gonna get my answer correctly if
I work a little bit slower and or have
a little bit slower lead time, but I
know I'm gonna get the answer to my
problem solution that matters to me.
I'm good in five minutes, right?
And that is a toss up in the same way
that I think about for our service.
Do you want to call a phone number
that's always on that goes straight to
a voice agent that can run you through
our 15 minute audit and you'll get
an email with all of the results of
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306:
have that by the way.
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
it's in the works.
But I think that's something where it's
do you want to work with me grant and
have a fun, hopefully fun conversation?
Talking about your business and
getting into some of the weeds,
and maybe it takes one or two or
three calls to get the full slate.
Or do you want a robot to run you
through, a battery of questions
and then email you 10 high leverage
automations at the end of the call?
I don't know do you want the
human experience or do you
want the robot experience?
And we just don't know
what the answer's gonna be.
So I think that's one of those
things where you can hedge your bets.
You can play both sides.
But that's really, that's a very
interesting, I don't know if it
falls in the world of ethics or just
personal preference and everyone's
going to be different, but that's
a very interesting question that
we're going to see take shape soon.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: I
think it falls under preference.
Cause what you mentioned
earlier and what I said in the
beginning is the culture, right?
Are your, is your team pro bullish
robots and your ideal clients like.
In love with the future of
like robotics and like first.
But then also you can enhance that
experience with the human touch with like
the, a silly example, like the handwritten
car, the custom onboarding call.
So it's definitely interesting.
What are you, I think to close this
and close this off as we, we don't
know the future and we're heading
into a new advent of technology maybe
cyborgs in the future, who knows.
What are you doing to stay ahead
of the curve it comes to all this
information and potential future?
And I know the answer, like without
having analysis paralysis, but
what information are you taking in?
What are the trends you're looking at?
What are the sources that core to
you so that derive the answers?
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306: Yeah,
there, there are a handful of things.
One is always trying to meet.
Interesting founders building things like
a lot of conversations I have is around
who's trying to build this happier killer.
I think that's a very
interesting conversation.
There's like the Lindy eyes.
There's plum.
There's some really interesting kind of
drag and drop builders that are trying
to be agentic and make that transition
building the connectors and everything.
So I think that's one thing of
just having the conversations
with people staying on top of it.
Super interesting.
There's a handful of newsletters,
AI tool report what's the
other one that I catch up on?
I think the guy's name is Mark Colgan
for sales intelligence automation.
I find his newsletter is pretty good.
There's a handful of newsletters.
But ultimately I think the thing
for the business owner seat to
keep in mind is like making space.
Just in general for having
these kinds of mental dialogues.
It can be very difficult to, at least for
me, knowing so much of what I do about
what's possible, it is analysis paralysis
for me to be like, what could I do with
my invoices to make them get sent on time?
What a fun problem and.
I think that is a fun one to think
about, but it's also important to zoom
out and have that question of, do we
want to start putting resources behind
the agent that's going to do the audit?
Cause maybe there are
people who want to do that.
Like we don't need a
chat bot on our website.
We're a service based business, or
maybe it is good to have a light flow,
but whatever the point is that I don't
need something crazy there, but if
someone does want answers in 15 minutes,
instead of 15 days for what their
system design is going to look like.
Maybe we can build that and
put some resources behind it.
So that only comes from.
Me following my curiosity, looking
at some of the tools that are on
the market and knowing that a, it's
possible B, how do I want to apply it?
And so to make it tactical, like the
week of Thanksgiving in the U S I'm
taking that week to be think week.
So the first three days of the week, the
whole team, we're pausing client work.
And obviously we have to set ourselves
up to do that well, but we want to pause
client work from Monday to Wednesday.
Thursday, Friday, we'll
be off because it's a U.
S.
holiday.
So our clients won't be expecting
anything, but just taking those three
days to be like, Hey, a lot of change
in the world, everyone on the team is
curious, what could we be building?
And how are we going to get those
things built by the end of the year?
So we can go into 2025 kind of ripping.
That is something that
I'm really excited for.
And I put a form out to the
team and pinned it in Slack.
And I said, Hey, if anyone has any ideas.
Throw it in here and we'll
have the conversation.
We'll have daily calls and we'll
see what is interesting, what can be
built, and it's purely a time for you
to look at the way that we do things.
Look at ClickUp, look at the
way that the business works from
fulfillment, from growth, et cetera.
Ask me questions.
I have the 360 degree view.
So if you want a perspective on
sales or you want a perspective on
marketing, and there's something
you've always wanted to build.
Let's talk about it and then just
go for it and see what happens.
Because I think that ultimately when
you have a global team of curious people
and they all are reading different
things, that takes it, that's how you can
take advantage of that and the holiday
where most of our clients are off.
So that's what I'm really
looking forward to.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: So
you're like an innovation lab then.
So it's essentially when I work with you,
I get the cutting edge, not the same old.
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
That's the hope.
And I think that.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: that
has to be part of the positioning.
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
Yeah, and I think that it's really
challenging for me personally, and
something we had talked about earlier.
It's like our processes are
changing because we've been around
for less than a year full time.
So I haven't been able to
apply a lot of these things.
But now after six, seven months of
me really testing offers and ideas
and CRM and XYZ, it's finally time
to start applying some of this Stuff
that I've been reading about and
trying and building little prototypes.
It's time to start making it scalable
and where the train tracks are going to
be set and run for the next six months.
And that if we are the golden shining
example of what can be done in ClickUp
and what can be done in HubSpot, then
we can confidently say you're getting
the most up to date version of these
two tools for your organization.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306:
That's a cool newsletter.
If you do build that.
And if you do have the
onboarding option, I need that
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
I'll let you know how it goes.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: for everyone
listening, where's the best place for
people to want to thank you for being on
and learn more about what you're up to.
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
Absolutely, man.
Thank you for having me.
LinkedIn is probably the best place.
Grant Hushek.
I'm one of one.
Can't find no, no other matches.
So you can follow me there
and then my website grant bot.
co.
raul-_1_10-28-2024_100306: put
those links in the show notes.
Grant.
Thanks again.
grant-hushek_1_10-28-2024_130306:
Absolutely.
Thanks for having me.
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