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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
00:00
Oh man, Jesse. Chris. We are back. It is good to be back with you. Yes, sir. On the Restorative Man podcast by Restoration Project. You guys, welcome to this episode where we are taking a little bit of a shift into some other topics. And I'm excited. I'm excited to be with you again, Jesse. Welcome back. Me too. Good to be with you, Chris. Yeah. Well, I'm just gonna dive in. Go for it. Because this is, you guys wait. You're like, you guys listening before you dive in, Jesse.
00:29
Wherever you are right now, like focus on what Jessie's about to say, because this is, this is how you start a successful relationship. Wow. Wow. Okay. There's the team. Let me see that. Irony noted. Irony noted. Okay. So, okay. So my wife and I have this great tradition that I really like where we alternate who plans what we do for our anniversary. So I go on, even years of our anniversary, she goes on odd, right? And so it just is this.
00:58
take turns type of thing, right? And it's proved to be just a helpful little way of doing that. And so several years ago, we were coming up on our seventh anniversary, lucky number seven. Number seven. Yes. And because it was an odd year, it was her year to plan it. And so, and just everyone like, so, you know, like this is, this is a story that has become famous in our family. And so this is not like the- So this is like shared by permission.
01:27
That's well said. Yeah. OK. It's already part of public domain. It is. Yeah, I think it's actually scientifically cited of how not to do an anniversary. So, OK, there's a little spoiler. So my wife planned the trip. And so she said, hey, I've rented a cool restored old pop up camper and we're going to go camp for a night up the booter canyon near house. And I was like, great. Fantastic. So she went borrowed her dad's pickup to pull the camper.
01:56
got the camper hooked up. We left on a Friday late afternoon. She grabbed dinner ahead of time. Like it's in June, wonderful, beautiful summer. I'm like, this is fantastic. All this is so great. So we start to drive up the canyon, which is like an hour from our house. And there's a series of campsites throughout the canyon, right? Most of those are first come first serve. And as we start to drive up the canyon and see these campsites,
02:26
It's about 5.30 on a Friday evening and most of them are full. And when I say most, I really should say all of them are full. And so we're like, okay, you know, we can just keep driving further and further up, you know, hoping that our luck will improve. So we keep driving further and further. No spots, no spots. And.
02:49
This is like contrary to me. I'm a little bit more of a planner of like, let's get a reservation ahead of time. My wife doesn't like to do that. And so there's like some tension that's starting to build. Right. And we get maybe an hour and 20 minutes up and we know this canyon pretty well. And I'm like, okay, this is the last campsite available for the next 40 minutes. Like this is coming to the end. We are. Our options are dwindling.
03:17
So we pull into this campsite, this first come first serve, and we're making the little loop, and we kind of look over and we're like, hey, there's no one there. Like, fantastic, the Lord provideeth, there's a spot. And so we drive around the loop and we couldn't see it, but there's a car ahead of us backing into it. Like- Oh no, took the last spot. The last spot, right? Okay. And so-
03:42
And wait, wait, I just want to like come back for a second. So when you say that you've been driving an hour and a half up and you're looking for a spot, that means, I mean, in the canyon, which I'm also familiar with, there's probably what? Ten different campgrounds. Oh yeah. Fifteen, which means that you've pulled off the road and you've done the loop of the circle of 15 different campgrounds. That's right. It's not just like driving by and you can see there's nothing. It's you got to investigate each and every one of them as you're going up the canyon. So the, the hope.
04:11
Disappointment roller coaster. We are. We are 15 trips into that. You've got through a couple loops, ups and downs. Yeah. Yep. Good. Good point. So the person ahead of us takes the last spot and it's, you know, we're just like, come on, can we catch break? And so at this point, it's like getting darker. And my wife is just so disappointed, right? Like she's done all of this planning, you know, all of the hopes for this. And so I was trying to be helpful and.
04:40
The other piece of information around our family is, I have extended family that has a cabin in the same canyon, a family cabin, of which we were five minutes from. And so I said, hey, I bet no one is at the cabin. Let's just go, not use the cabin, but we can just park. They kind of have this great lower parking area and we'll just park the camper there. Like, no one will be there. It's perfect. I'll be good. It's close to the river. What could go wrong? And she was like, okay.
05:08
That's okay. Like kind of bummed, but whatever. Sure. So we turn around, drive five minutes, pull into the driveway of the family cabin. And my wife says, what are those cars there? I'm like, oh no, there are three cars in the driveway of which I instantly recognize are my two aunts and my mom, my mom's car. And so we like pull into the lower place and I'm like, maybe they're gone. Right. Trying to be hopeful. So I go and I knock on the door.
05:37
And I explain it. And so my mom answers and her two sisters answer. And they're like, hey, welcome. Great to see you. Right. They're so excited and unaware person that I am unaware, ma'am. I'm like, hey, great to see you. And they kind of peer down and see the camper like, what are you doing? And I said, well, we just need a place to park the camper. You know, could we just park it in the lower lower? And they're like, absolutely. Yes, we you know, you're more than welcome.
06:04
I know this is your anniversary. You guys have a great trip, but we can bring you coffee and pie in the morning, like some room service. We're so glad you're here. And again, unaware person that I am, I'm like, this is great. Fantastic. What else could we want? But breakfast served me good. Once again, the Lord provide it. And so then I walked down to where the camper is, like with this big smile, like, hey, they're here, but it's fine. My mom, her two sisters, they're so glad to have us. They'll bring...
06:33
breakfast in the morning, like this is gonna be great. And my wife just at this point like loses it, right? And it's like, this is not what I want. I don't want, I love your family, but I don't want your mom and her two sisters to bring coffee to us on our anniversary. I don't want them to be like 50 yards away. And right, all of the like hope and the disappointment like, yes, unfolds.
06:58
Exactly the person you don't want to see when you're celebrating your anniversary is your mother-in-law. See, and this is this is some of the evolution of I didn't really think through that lens. Now as I say that it makes me nauseous thinking like I didn't really have that awareness. Yeah. And so at this point, and I'll speed the story up, but at this point we're at like DEFCON 12, whatever the worst one is, and I go silent mode. My wife is just like so crushed and so sad that all of her plans just feel foiled, right?
07:27
And I'm offering no sort of encouragement. All I am giving her is my silence, which is the worst thing that I could give her. Oh, yeah. Right. Yeah. And so we end up parking totally illegally, like off the road in this little pullout. We just said, like, we left the cabin. We left the cabin in this total like flurry of like, thanks, mom, we got to go. This isn't going to work. I'm sure they were like, what? I thought everything was going to go. What's wrong with this?
07:56
And so then go leave park and we're like, well, we're just going to have to park here. Hopefully, you know, a ranger doesn't come. And the last little bit that I'll say, so we go and we have our little cooler and we're like of cold things. We are like, oh, we're just going to put it in the river to keep it cold. I had like our breakfast food and everything. And so this was in June. The runoff was high. That night was like really disappointing for my wife. We're like trying to process this. All the things.
08:24
Wake up in the morning, think like, OK, we've rallied. Go down to get the cooler out of the river to eat our breakfast. And of course, the river has risen. I didn't tie the cooler down and the river has or the cooler has washed down. It's gone and we're gone. OK. Oh, yeah. I also dented I also dented the camper when I was backing it up. And so this is affectionately called named lucky number seven anniversary trip from OK. OK. OK. Lucky number seven.
08:54
And that was number seven. And you're at how many years married now, Jesse? We're going to be 15 here in a couple of months. You've more than doubled. We have. Wow. Hey, congratulations. You. That's awesome. We made it. Yeah. And it is another odd year. Also, your wife gets to plan again. This is true. Maybe we run it. Is it is it redemption year? I mean, it could be. I think it's a good question to ask. It could be. I'll have to talk with her. Please do.
09:22
Oh my gosh. Well, I wish Jesse that I could say that I haven't had a lucky number blank multiple times in the years that I've been married. But anniversaries are hit and miss. I mean, they are all the hope, all the desire and all the potential devastation go hand in hand. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
09:45
So why do we choose to delve into the wonderful space of anniversaries and marriage here today? So it's good, it's good. Here at Restoration Project, we are always, and you guys have heard us talk about this, we are always talking about sonship, fatherhood, and brotherhood, three roles that every man has regardless of his relational status. Every man is a son.
10:10
Every man is a father in the world. The fathering energy, we are designed by God to bring that fathering energy, whether or not we have children, we are meant to bring that fatherhood to the world. And then every one of us is a brother to one another, to our literal siblings or our proverbial siblings, our brothers and sisters around us, we are brothers. And so those are kind of the main three categories of focus that we at Restoration Project have
10:40
roles that every man has in his world and his life. And our desire and the name of the podcast is the Restorative Man podcast, is we are looking to be restorative men in each one of those categories, as a son, as a father, and as a brother. And so many times, I don't know how many times, people ask us, well, what about husband? What about this other role that a lot of men have and that is husband? And...
11:05
The thing is, is that it is a role that a lot of men have, but not every man has. And so we wanted to focus the ministry really being around those three primary roles. And yet we're diving in today and then the next episode and talking about marriage because so much of the restorative man stuff that we are talking about in Sonship Brotherhood and Fatherhood is applicable. It's like, you know, it translates into the marriage space as well.
11:35
you know, have a few conversations around this important relationship also. So that's why we're diving in. That was number seven for you. You're hitting number 15 this year. Congratulations on that. It is scary to hear you say number 15. So you started at 15 then I said, well, you've more than doubled. Well, I have now more than I have. I've now doubled you where our anniversary this year is coming up on 30.
12:00
Ooh, buddy. 30 freaking years. And 30 amazing years and 30 years of lucky number, blah, blah, blah. All along the way, all the mishaps as well. But yeah, 30 years of being married. Yeah, it's a deal. So Chris, I love that you laid out those three roles, right? Of son, brother, father, as spaces that we're all invited to in our lives as men. When you think about the space of being husband, right? Which is a big old space, like,
12:30
in connection to some of the ways that we do talk about brotherhood and fatherhood and sonship, like what are some of those parallels or those applicable pieces from those other three spaces when we think about how we step into that space of being a husband? Yeah, yeah. Such a great question. Here at RP, we talk a lot about kind of the relational postures that we take in connection to being a father, to being a son, to being a brother.
12:58
these relational postures. And I wanna clarify it like it's a posture, it's not a process or a program, it is not like a skillset, it is not something that is like you can, in some ways you can practice taking that posture, but it's more of how you are versus what you do. And so as we talk about the postures, I wanna make sure that's clear before we jump in. And you guys have heard us talk about these too because they're so core.
13:28
to becoming a restorative man. The basics of these three core postures are what we have called awareness, curiosity, and kindness. The posture of awareness, the posture of curiosity, and then the posture of kindness. And we can kind of break that down now, but even as I say those, I can imagine you guys listening, like, oh, I can see how
13:57
my having a posture of awareness with my wife, my having a posture of curiosity with my wife, my having a posture of kindness with my wife, how that can be like 100% applicable because it's one of those relational postures. It's a relationship, it's a relational posture. And I think that's so important for us to kind of recognize. So awareness is how in your engagement with the other person,
14:25
Are you aware of, do you have a mind to an openness to an understanding, do you have your eyes and your ears and your heart open to what is happening in the other person and also in yourself as you are with the other person? Okay, so do you have that awareness of how you are feeling, what you are thinking?
14:52
Are you present? Are you not present? Are you actually listening? And if you are listening, what are you hearing? All those things. Are you aware of what's happening for you? And then are you reading what is happening in and for the other person as you're sitting with them, as you are in their presence? What are you feeling from them? What are you hearing from them? And not just like what words are you hearing, but how are those words spoken? How are they not spoken? What do you see on their face?
15:22
Are they present with you or not? Like overall sense of like openness and awareness. And that's not just coming out of the blue, that is coming out of like every time we see Jesus engage somebody in the scriptures, there is, he takes the posture of awareness. He sees beyond the obvious, he sees into.
15:42
their eyes, he listens to their words, and he is aware not only of the interchange that's happening right in front of him, but all the context of where that interchange is happening as well. He's always looking for the son or the daughter of God who is right in front of him. And I love that, I love taking that posture of awareness. And at the same time, it's super hard. It requires a ton, right? Like what you're just describing, I'm envisioning and thinking about like, yes, that is this beautiful description.
16:12
And to truly do that, right, it requires so much. So much. This is not something to just like, oh, I'm gonna multitask this and I'm gonna be aware while I'm writing an email or whatever, right? Like doing the other chores. It's like, no, this requires all of my attention and all of my energy to actually do this. And I don't wanna say that it's harder for men than for women because I don't know that's the case. All I know is that for me, the difficulty comes because as I'm listening, whether it's another man or to my wife or to a child or to a coworker, whatever it is,
16:42
when I'm listening, my default is to start scripting my next statement before they're finished with what they have to say. So I've already left them. I've stopped being aware of them and I've started just like making my case or my defense or what I'm going to say next or whatever it is rather than actually staying present and with them. Yep. For sure. And I think some other guys may struggle with that. Maybe. I've heard rumors of. Yes. Totally. Yeah.
17:11
Yeah, I feel like the posture of awareness in some circles, a phrase of people saying, hey, I want to be seen, right? Like I think is another way of saying when we are aware of our wives, of the people that we're with, right? It is this pursuit of to actually see them and to see all that they may be experiencing or all at least that we're able to be aware of and to do that thoughtfully. Yeah. And I feel like in scripture old terms, it's to have eyes to see and ears to hear like open the eyes of my heart, Lord, let me see them and be present. Let me actually have.
17:41
my heart open to the other person and receive where they are. And I mean, there's no better way to say it than with the word awareness. What awareness do I have of that person? Which then leads us into the second part, and that is the posture of curiosity. And to be curious, not just about the what, but about the who that you are with. So rather than the curious questions of, you know, data points,
18:08
It's more curiosity around like, how are you as you are telling me these things, as we are with one another? How's your heart, how's your mind, how are your emotions, what's going on inside of you? Like, what is happening inside of you? Kinds of curiosity that comes from when I am aware of the tone of your voice, now I am curious about what's happening that is causing that tone of voice versus what the words were that you said.
18:35
It's the curiosity of the person rather than the curiosity of the thing, the issue you're talking about. And that curiosity, again, is the posture of Jesus. He's always seeing the story behind the other person's eyes. He's always wondering what is happening for that person and in that person versus the actual content of where they are. And that curiosity is, again, so, so hard. If awareness is hard, curiosity is even harder.
19:04
harder because we jump right to judgment. We make assumptions. If somebody says, you know, I was afraid of blah, blah, blah, well then I assume that you're afraid is the same as my afraid and versus having a curiosity around tell me more about what it felt like to be afraid. Yep. It can jump over so much. For sure. And again, maybe painting with a little bit broader brush, but I think it is easy again. I'll speak for me, right? If we are aware.
19:32
especially of maybe emotions that are more difficult for me to sit with of sadness, disappointment, anger for sure, right? The default response, if I am aware of that, is one of, like, hey, let's rectify this. Let's do whatever we need to do to fix it or to eliminate it. But what you're actually inviting is to be curious about it, to not short-circuit it, but to give our wives space to be able to speak to that.
19:59
man, that is like you're saying that is so hard, especially in some of those spaces, at least for me in those, like if there's anger, present or disappointment, all of what I want to do is like, well, let's get rid of this ASAP, right? Yeah, yeah, 100%. And yet when we do that, what is lost? Yeah, well, the witness being with the other person is lost because now I'm a mechanic to fix whatever's wrong with your engine versus I am here to sit with you in the midst of
20:29
where you are. Yeah. So awareness is first, then curiosity, and then we move into the place of kindness, right? We move into the place of after I have come to know where you are and how you are because of my curiosity, now I can bring even more tenderness, gentleness, some strength if needed, as well as like, I just, I'm gonna bring
20:57
my face of kindness to a place where you might feel left or confused or judged or whatever. I think at the end of the day, I just used the word witness earlier, but at the end of the day, what all of us want is someone to be with us, not someone to fix us. And that's where we can bring our kindness, our presence, our statements of love and care and tenderness and adoration to.
21:24
the other person and for who we see them to be and how we experience them and what we notice about them. That kindness is ultimately I think what builds kindness. I think it's the currency of relationship that it actually makes some significant deposits into the relational capital relational bank in order to strengthen and firm up the foundation of that relationship is that kindness. And that's a posture, right? That's another posture. I love that. I feel like
21:52
As I hear you describe these three different postures, these ways of being with the full picture of that is a word that used a few times, right? But it is one of presence, right? That when those three ways of being are offered, it really does create a presence that is different than like tips and techniques, right? Then you know, say this magic phrase or, you know,
22:16
have this clever, quippy little nugget that will help you disarm conflict or whatever it is, but to actually be aware, to be curious, to be kind, is to give presence to our spouse. Which as you're saying, we want people, ultimately we want to be with. Yeah, absolutely. And you just said to our spouse, which is what we're talking about today is being the husband who is an aware husband, a curious husband, a kind husband. And it's...
22:45
100% all of what we're talking about in Sonship Brotherhood and Fatherhood also. I think it is totally applicable in the marriage space, and we're going to get into that more in the next conversation, but men, when you are aware and curious and kind with your wife, things shift. Your whole family structure, the children that you have, the whole narrative around who you are as a couple, who you are as a man, and then who you are as a couple can
23:15
when you bring awareness, curiosity, and kindness into your marriage relationship. And I know that for me, when my wife is aware and curious and kind with me, something just settles. Something just like I breathe easier, I have a sense like I am safe, I am okay, because if no one else in the world loves me, she does. And I am gonna be okay. For sure, yeah.
23:44
The thing is, is that in Restoration Project, we don't have a husband category, like I said at the beginning of the conversation, that we're focused on, because not every man is a husband. But we do want it, and we have wanted to address some of these things for those men who are husbands, because we wanna support you and come alongside of you. And we've got some resources that we're gonna talk about in the next episode here that we wanna make sure you're aware of, that go completely hand in hand, that are like...
24:12
completely adjacent to what we're doing in Restoration Project for you husbands to really clue into and get involved with so that you grow in the, in the area of really one of the most important relationships that you have. If you are a husband, it is the most important relationship that you have on earth. So we didn't want to leave that out. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Chris, thank you. Thanks for setting the stage for that conversation ahead and for what we were able to dive in today. And yeah, yeah.
24:41
And we'll talk next time. Okay, thanks.