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Hosts Spencer Horn and Christian Napier discuss a better way to build and strengthen teams in any organization.
00:00 - 00:10
Announcer: The podcast filled with stories, experiences, and insights from leading high-performing team experts. Here are your hosts, Spencer Horn and Christian Napier.
00:12 - 00:28
Christian Napier
: Well, hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Teamwork, A Better Way. I'm Christian Napier, join my incredible co-host, he's an amazing, amazing man, Spencer Horn. Spencer, how are you doing? Blushing. Thank you, Christian,
: good to be with you. Love to be with you on a Monday morning to start off our week.
00:35 - 00:39
Christian Napier
: Yeah, and what, I mean, can you think of a better way to start our week than with our next guest?
: No, I'm so excited. I mean, I just met her, I know you know her from before. I'm so excited about our topic today.
00:47 - 01:26
Christian Napier
: All right, well, I'll get to the topic in a second, but let me just focus on the guest here. So Nita Johnson's joining us. She's been, well, she's a veteran of more than 20 years in CPG, consumer packaged goods industry. A lot of that with Coca-Cola. She's held a number of positions, 15 years leading coaching, mentoring teams, which is why she's here with us today, Spencer. Right. Most recently, she served as the vice president of commercial channel strategy and planning for 1 of the US's, 1 of the United States largest...
: We just make up our plurals however we want to, right, Christian?
01:30 - 02:14
Christian Napier
: That's right. That's right. So she's got a... Possessive, I mean. She's got a positive Mindset, but she can also see holistically big picture and small picture at the same time. So she's very gifted in that regard. She was responsible for developing the go-to-market strategy for the entire Coca-Cola portfolio across all channels of trade for the Midwest and the West region here in the United States. And she holds an MBA from Kennesaw State University and dual bachelor's degrees, 1 in business administration and 1 in finance from DePaul University. So Nina, we are honored to have you on
02:14 - 02:21
Christian Napier
: our podcast and welcome. And Roseanne Bateman already said hi from Columbus, Illinois.
: So She's joining us.
02:24 - 02:39
Nina Johnson: Hi, thank you. Thank you for having me, Christian Spencer. I'm so excited to do this podcast and really excited to be a guest on Teamwork, A Better Way. Excited about this topic, actually. I think it's so relevant in today's culture and where we are today in our time period.
02:41 - 03:31
Christian Napier
: Well, let's get into what that topic is, right? You suggested this topic because of what you're seeing out there and it's really about managing multi-generational teams. I love this concept, we've not really discussed this in detail before and in the notes that you send us beforehand Nina, you brought to forth an interesting statistics under the caption of the readiness gap. And that statistic was 70% of organizations, executives believe that the ability to manage multi-generational teams effectively is important to the success of their organization but only 10% actually feel like they're ready for this. So we're all
03:31 - 03:43
Christian Napier
: yours Nina, Why don't you tell us a little bit more about your background and how you came up with this idea and this focus on multi-generational teams?
03:44 - 04:19
Nina Johnson: Yeah, great question. So as I mentioned, I started managing my first team. I was very young in my career, so mid-20s, managing, you know, my first set of teams where everybody was older than me. And that probably existed up until I was in my mid-30s. And then I started managing teams that were older than me, younger than me, same age, and that's kind of continued. And as I thought about really all the different generations that I've managed, it's been interesting. There's no leadership discussions or trainings on multi-generations. If you think about a typical learning management system,
04:19 - 04:53
Nina Johnson: there's tons of trainings on learning, developing, coaching, communication broadly, but not necessarily focused on the multi-generation. So all of my kind of experience and insights has really just been firsthand experience. You know, you kind of live and learn, you know, I wasn't the best, depending on which life stage I was in or what age group that I was managing. It was a learning experience. So I would say, you know, it's been, you know, when I was younger in my career, I probably did not do a great job managing, you know, what I would call like the
04:53 - 05:29
Nina Johnson: baby boomers and like other millennials and older generations. And then as I kind of got sent into that age group, then I started to understand a little bit more in different work styles. So I think that's why that statistics is so important. Why organizations should really think of how can they better provide their management and their leaders specific multi-generational coaching because it's a true fact today. They said over 5 generations are in the workforce today. And then the first time it's happened, because you've got baby boomers and really the traditionalists that are working longer than they
05:29 - 05:58
Nina Johnson: have before, right? The retirement age is no longer 59 or 60. You have people that are, you know, close to 70, still in the work age, and all the way till what we would call like a Gen Z, 21 year olds entering the workplace. So think about what that means. You've got 21 year olds all the way to, you know, close to 7 year olds working in the same workplace on teams, whether that's management style, teamwork environment. So it's really important that we know how to communicate, lead and coach these generations.
: You know, I know that that experience that you've had speaks to me and it's probably not unique to a lot of people out there in the workforce that are high performers that are having opportunities to lead teams. You're going to have teams of all ages. I mean, I graduated with my master's in 26 and I was immediately put into a director role of operations. I had teenagers and 60-year-olds, so back, I mean, greatest generation, I think you call them traditionalists. I'd love for you to outline the different generations and a little bit about them. But I
: remember my having to fire somebody that was 60 and I was 26 years old. I was so, It was so stressful. I mean, I was so anxious. I'm like, why—you know, here's this kid that has to manage people that have so much more experience. It was stressful for me even though I was in a position of authority. And you're so right. I mean, I love that as you gain experience, it becomes more natural. But it seems like we have to learn that by experience instead of someone saying, here's a handbook on how you deal with that.
: So I'd like the handbook now that I'm 35 years later. Wished I would have had it, but hopefully you're gonna give that. So, a couple of things. I mean, talk about, it's a fact right now, we have multi-generations in the workforce. What are the pros and cons? Tell us a little bit about those generations and just go from there for a moment.
07:30 - 08:04
Nina Johnson: Yeah, and I'm gonna read the generations and the dates because I don't wanna get the dates mixed up, but we have what we would call the silent generation or traditionalist, and they are folks born between 1928 to 1945. Then we've got the baby boomers, which all of us are really familiar with, 1946 to 1964, that's like my parents are in that baby boomer generation. Generation X is born 1965 to 80. Then we've got millennials or they're called Gen Y. I'm in that bucket. I'm on the cusp. Sometimes I think I'm really a gen X which is
08:04 - 08:04
Nina Johnson: born
: So that's interesting. So you're kind of a tweener too. So I'm a tweener. I'm January of 65 So I'm a tween between that baby boomer and Gen X but there's some I think there's some nuance there too, isn't there?
08:15 - 08:47
Nina Johnson: There is and I'll kind of talk through that. And so millennials are born 81 to 96, and then the Gen Zs are like the newest generation born 1997 to 2012. So, you know, depending on what source it could be off-fire, But yeah, I'm on the cusp. So when I hear the traditional things about a millennial, I you know, the stereotypes I often like, I'm not like that. Like, I'm not a typical millennial. Like I think of that someone tenures my my age group just because I'm really on that cups. But that's 1 of the things is
08:47 - 09:16
Nina Johnson: the stereotypes that we have to think about is, you know, as a leader or any team member when you're working with someone in a different age group is not to actually default to the stereotypes because we do that so often. And I find myself, you know, doing that as well. So that's why we kind of think through is how do we best, you know, understand and communicate. And 1 of the best things that I've learned is really just individual motivations of these general groups. And I'll talk at a very high level, you know, we're talking about
09:16 - 09:49
Nina Johnson: motivations, but when you think about the baby boomers and traditionalists, these are groups that have been probably at the same job for many, many years, right? They started there probably in their 20s and have worked their way up the traditional, very traditional ladder career, and their focus is on job stability and providing for the family. Then you have like the Gen X millennials coming in that probably do more job hop. And I was reading a stat and they said typically like a Gen Y, Gen Z, they're only in jobs less than 3 years. So even when
09:49 - 09:59
Nina Johnson: I look at resumes, mine is 18 years within the Koch system and I will get resumes from Gen Z and Gen Y, they've already had like 5 or 6 different companies.
: Yeah, I think 3 years is generous, Nina.
10:03 - 10:35
Nina Johnson: Yeah, you're right. I mean, some of it is, it's 2 years. And, you know, when I typically ask, you know, kind of walk me through your career progression, it's really not surprising, but how often they say, I was promoted to this next role, promoted to this next role. And when they hit a mark of not being promoted in that 24 months, that's when they typically look for a different job, which is very different than a millennial baby boomer that maybe is working in the same role 5 to 8 years, kind of waiting for that next step.
10:35 - 11:08
Nina Johnson: So the motivations and why people work in the different groups is very different. And then the last thing I'll say is just kind of the aspiration, I talked a little bit about the motivation is, you know, today, like Gen Z, Gen Y, millennials, they're looking at work-life balance. How do they, you know, be able to have that hybrid work schedule? And, you know, like you mentioned, post pandemic, like working remote is a key benefit where, you know, if you ask my parents, they went into the office every day. There was no such thing as working from
11:08 - 11:18
Nina Johnson: home and, you know, doing this hybrid work schedule and there weren't any perk benefits. It was, this was your job. So the motivation of what people are looking for, very different today.
: We have several comments. I'd love to throw some up. And I am so paying myself. So here's, I don't know if you saw, Stacey was saying, Zennials, approximately late 70s to 83, 84. And then you've got Joseph Saucito. Here, let me add his comment here. Nina, appreciate your suggestion about not defaulting to stereotypes. And I actually, there is some difference. I think There's also a lot of similarity. I mean, we all want to have happiness. We want to have good relationships. We want our life to matter. And it seems like the younger generations express it differently
: than the older, right? I mean, they were more willing to just do what traditional do, whatever was expected Today, the kids, I call them kids, I mean, sorry Nina, you're a kid, but the kids, they want to know what they do matters. I don't care if they're pouring concrete driveways. They want to know how that makes the world a better place. And they want to live. They don't want to live to work. They want to work to live. And so they want to have meaning, and they want to be able to have experiences, and learn, and
: grow, and know that you care about them. That's 1 of the reasons why diversity and inclusion is so important, because they care about how you actually treat people. And so those are some big differences that I've experienced, but we really want a lot of the same things, but we manifest them a little bit differently, is my experience.
12:45 - 12:58
Nina Johnson: Yeah, I think the, you know, you're spot on. I think the feedback and communication with the younger generation Has to be more frequent and more encouraging like great work So and so I'm like it has to be more
: hold on Are you saying they need a gold star for turning in their work on time?
13:03 - 13:06
Nina Johnson: Coming to the office and completing the project.
: Great job coming into the office today. Come on.
13:10 - 13:37
Nina Johnson: There is a lot more encouragement and it's very true and you need to make sure you acknowledge them and provide that feedback. And it's not even just that, but it's also like the training and the skills compared to, as I think about managing the older generations that I have, it was probably not as frequent now that I'm looking back, but it's kind of part of that communication process and feedback, right? They need to know that the work that they're doing is valued.
: So this is Laura, says young people today have strong views that older people should be retired earlier and don't want to work with or hire older people or will do the things that get older people terminated. Do you, do you believe that? Or do you agree with that?
13:54 - 14:26
Nina Johnson: I don't, I don't think the intention of most people is to get, older people fired, but I do think that young people probably have a stereotype or bias of older people and probably vice versa. I, absolutely, right. You know, I, now I'm looking back. So I'm in my early forties and, you know, if I look at the younger generation, I'm like, we have so much experience, right? Just to pardon and give you wisdom. But likewise, they're probably thinking the same thing as me now, right? Like, look at this really old mom working, you know, still in
14:26 - 14:39
Nina Johnson: the workforce. So I think it goes both ways. I think that's where we have to be really careful and not assume the stereotypes and hope that working together, the collaboration really brings greater success in all of us.
: That was a singer, right? Oh, that's
14:52 - 15:40
Christian Napier
: a newbie. OK, so my 2 cents on this thought, and then back over to you, Nina, is when we hear those kinds of sentiments, it's time to do a bit of root cause analysis. Sometimes, and I see it myself, where as an older person now, I'm Gen X, but not by much over the boomers you know so I'm yeah but it's kind of the the you know the the stereotype that oh here's the old person who's trying to impart their sage wisdom to me, when this person's wisdom is old, like it doesn't really, it's not relevant
15:40 - 16:15
Christian Napier
: to what we're going through today. And so, and at the same time as the old person I'm just trying to be helpful right so I think I'm trying to be helpful but my but my help is being rejected because you know somebody who's in this different generation may not think it's relevant because what I'm sharing with them in their eyes may not be current. You know, it may not be reflecting their current reality. And so sometimes it's just a, you know, it's a people have these good intentions but we're kind of getting in our own way,
16:15 - 16:29
Christian Napier
: you know, because as the older generation is trying to pay it forward, you know, we hear this term pay it forward. Well, I'm trying to pay it forward. And these people don't want to pay any attention to what I have to say. And they don't want to pay any attention because they don't think what I have to say is relevant.
16:31 - 17:04
Nina Johnson: That's, That's true. And I think, you know, it's really important from a culture standpoint that the leader, your manager helps create that like a really inclusive culture where collaboration, that open dialogue is valued across all the different perspectives. Because I think you need someone to help facilitate that if it doesn't come naturally. Because you're right. I mean, we feel like that we have our own biases. That's why the culture needs to be created where that diverse thought is important. Because you have experiences that I may pitch an idea that you're like, we've tried that, it didn't
17:04 - 17:18
Nina Johnson: work, but here's why. And then maybe I'll come in with, well, maybe we could try to tweak it and do XYZ. But you have the experience and knowledge that there's no way that somebody new coming into the workforce would know. And we have to create that culture of inclusivity.
: Nina, I love that collaboration idea. And I can't remember who it was. He wrote a book on, he's a hospitality guru out of San Francisco. And I mean, He's now close to his 60s, but he talks about this idea of truly collaborating with the younger generations because they have so much insight and experience in how things are working today, but there's still things that they don't miss. I mean, they don't see that they miss, to your point, Christian. And what's magical is if you can mesh those 2 together and they both appreciate each other, it creates
: incredible outcomes because once we start to appreciate the insights of the younger generations, teach me. And here's what I have. And you give the permission then to stop, to release some of those biases and say, well, maybe I can learn something. Because we with more experience may say, you know, I know it all. And That's a danger too, isn't it?
18:17 - 18:27
Nina Johnson: It is, and there's this new mentoring, traditional mentoring is an older person mentor someone younger. Now they have this thing called reverse age mentoring.
: That's it, that's it. And this Senior executive is embracing that and setting the example, setting the culture that you're talking about. Teach me young people, I'll be your Padawan.
18:37 - 18:50
Nina Johnson: Yeah, and it could be, you know, it could be a specific skill set, like even some of the social media platforms. I'll be honest, every time I see them, like There's 3 more icons, I don't even know what they are. That's part of the reverse age mentoring.
: Welcome to getting old, Nina.
18:52 - 19:12
Nina Johnson: I know, it can flow both ways. And I love that because I remember when I first started in my 20s, there was no such thing as reverse age mentoring. It was just all traditional mentoring. And now we have it go both ways. Like there's an opportunity on the team to do that. Like I'll help facilitate, you know, reverse age as well as traditional mentoring.
: We're getting a lot of comments. So Thanks, Joseph. And here's Stacey again. Generations can learn from each other, but we all have to be open. That's exactly what we're talking about. Exactly agree with the fostering the culture that helps with that. And I got 1 more, Christian, before we go on. Oh, I got, geez, 3 more. Good grief. Christian
19:28 - 19:30
Christian Napier
: Bale Yeah, there's a lot. They're pouring in.
: Darrell Bock So here's Roseanne Bateman in the Midwest. So good to hear from you, Roseanne. Collaboration and open communication is critical. Yes. And that's, and that has to be done on purpose. Joseph, again, I haven't read this, let's put it, what does he say? True on meeting folks where they are and approaching collaboration? Well, I, my daughter's, I think, I think this is my daughter is actually, she's the young and she's in the workforce as a nurse. The younger generation wants fewer displays of authority and more compassion in the workplace. What would you say to that?
20:06 - 20:35
Nina Johnson: I would agree with that assessment. I think that compassion is that empathy, checking in the work-life balance, right? You don't, you, today when we engage with our younger generation, I probably know like what their activities are, what they're doing, their hobbies coming in Monday and asking them what they did on the weekends. Like it's part of understanding the whole self, not just the professional piece, but also your personal piece. And I think that's how you show compassion and build that trust with the younger generation.
: Thanks, sweetie, for joining the show today. If you're not my sweetie, then I'm sorry. But I think you are. I mean, I don't know if we've ever had this many comments in 1, right at the beginning of the show. CPG, especially our younger team members, can be our target audience. And we have built consultants and focus groups. I love that. And then here's 1 more that we've got from Laura. The youngest workers, 30-year-old men, refer to coworkers, you're not my dad or you're not my mom. Yeah. When there is not a respected hierarchy within a company,
: when young men feel they have swayed someone that has an ability to promote them, this is more prevalent. I'm not sure I understand all of what's being said there. Does that, maybe you can translate.
21:29 - 22:05
Nina Johnson: Let's see. I am not sure exactly either. Maybe Laura, if you could rephrase that. I will mention, I think 1 pro when we talked about multi-generations, just because she mentioned family, is this concept of when you have multi-generations working on a team, it's considered more of a family unit. Because if you think about your family, there's older brothers, younger sisters, your parents, your mom, dad, and uncle. And think about all the different things you learned versus if you were in a team that was literally the same age group, there is, you don't have that family unit.
22:05 - 22:36
Nina Johnson: It's essentially a friend group, right? If everybody in their 20s are working in the same department, then you guys are hitting happy hour. It's the same activities, same hobbies. So it's a friend learning environment versus a family unit and learning environment. So I think there's that pro of that family and the multi-age, because you learn so many things both, I'll say professionally and personally. I know I've learned tons from my older colleagues on both professional, but even personal stuff, right? If they have kids older than mine, then I just, you know, get tidbits on what to
22:36 - 22:44
Nina Johnson: look forward to when your kids are in high school or attending college. So I think you have that broader sense of learning when you work with multi-generations beyond the workplace.
22:54 - 23:23
Christian Napier
: So I've got a question for you, Nina. You mentioned at the beginning of our conversation that when you were younger, in your 20s, you started managing teams, you were leading teams. As you look back, you think to yourself, well, maybe I didn't do some things very well, maybe I made some mistakes, but you corrected, you made adjustments, and so I'm curious to know a little bit more about that. What were some of the things that you saw your younger self doing that you felt like, oh, I need to make some adjustments here. I need to handle
23:23 - 23:43
Christian Napier
: some situations or manage this team or manage my teams a little bit differently moving forward. So kind of walk us through that process of what you thought you might be, you were doing when you were younger that you needed to change as you became a more seasoned leader.
23:43 - 24:20
Nina Johnson: Yeah, absolutely. I definitely made mistakes. So when I first started managing my teams, I had essentially got promoted. I was a really high individual contributor, so I got promoted. Did not have previous leadership skills. 1 of the biggest things I look back and regret doing was time management or time commitment. So when you're in your 20s, you're not married, no kids. I was essentially a workaholic, meaning I was in the office at 8, I was working way into the lights, late into the night. And I'd be 1 of those bosses that would be emailing my team
24:20 - 24:51
Nina Johnson: during dinner, in the evenings, late at night, asking them questions just because I didn't understand the concept of people have commitments outside of work. That's not something that naturally happens until you get a little bit older. So as I look now, you know, in my, in my, I'm in my 40s, as I mentioned, but now I have 3 young children. So once I started having kids and a family, I realized, wow, people cannot get to the work at 08:00. It's actually like almost impossible if you have a kid drop off and you have to get to
24:51 - 25:21
Nina Johnson: school. Same with pickup and activity. So when I was younger, I did not realize at times why the older team members had to leave work at a certain time by like 4 or cannot communicate, you know, between the hours of like 6 to 8. It's these simple things that I think it's life experiences that it's hard to cheat someone when you're younger. You can explain it, but unless you go through that life phase, it's really hard. So even now, as I manage my teams and this experience has taken me beyond whether or not you have a
25:21 - 25:50
Nina Johnson: family, but now I'm very conscious of time commitments. So whether or not you have children or not, I'm very clear, like, you know, we try not to do any emails post this time. If I do send an email, please do not feel the need to respond until the next day. Some people are a little bit of night owls. But it's the time commitment and the time appreciation for your team that is probably the most valuable thing to me now, knowing how hectic our lives could be, and that we have to respect everyone's personal time.
: Great, great answer. And we do have a response back from Laura, but I'll hold on that for a minute, Laura, stay tuned. We'll get to your comment in a moment. But 1 of the things that you said a minute ago is that the younger generations need and expect more communication. And you actually just gave an example of some of that communication within your organization, like you don't have to respond to my emails. So can you elaborate on communication and collaboration? How do the communication styles vary across the different generations? And then how can we as leaders
: adapt to those differences and maybe what strategies can be employed to foster effective collaboration and teamwork? And if you have some specific examples, that would be, I think, super helpful to us and our listeners.
26:45 - 27:22
Nina Johnson: Yeah, great question. I think today's workforce, I think just in the digital age today, so kind of even beyond the multi-generations, like we have so much digital communication. I would tell you that I probably would text with my coworkers more often than email for anything important for some reason. Like we text all the time. I think that's just a very natural form of communication. The second thing I will mention is face to face versus online meetings. I've learned that, kind of working with older generations, face-to-face works really well. They're just used to that format because that's
27:22 - 27:52
Nina Johnson: what they grew up with, versus, you know, I can communicate to someone in their 20s via talks, really simple. And it works out great, just as much as if I was to pick up the phone. And it's funny because I have older team members and this is a joke where they would used to leave me voicemails. And, you know, I'm on that custom set millennials. I was like, I don't check my voicemails, like stop leaving voicemails, either, you know, send me a text or an email, but you gotta think about voicemail was very, very common about
27:52 - 28:04
Nina Johnson: 15 years ago. And now like with the younger generation, I've never had any voicemail from anyone 30 and under to me. So that's like a key example between communication, both digital phone and in person.
: OK, so I have a follow up on that, and this is this is very specific. All right. I do. I spend more time with executives Nina teaching them how to to delegate and create accountability. If there's an important task that has to be done, how do we effectively follow up with the progress of the task? You know, in the project management world, there are some agile organizations that have scrums, and they use scrums, and they have short sprints, and then they have a return and report mechanism. Those are usually done in person, even stand up in
: person. There was an article written about 50 years ago. It's the number 2 most downloaded Harvard Business Review article of all time called Time Management, Who's Got the Monkey by William Onken. He partnered with Ken Blanchard, another old dude, the 1 minute manager meets the monkey. The whole idea of this methodology is what they call monkey management. Monkeys are important tasks. Now, I know people get triggered by words, and monkey is only an important task. So let's say there's a conversation that happens between you and your direct report, and an assignment, an important task gets created
: and given to somebody. Those older thought leaders suggest that there's always 1 person to do the work of the important task and 1 person to supervise and that there are what we call feeding sessions and those should be done face-to-face, one-on-one. Or you can have team accountability meetings but they need to be done in person for a couple of reasons. Too many managers are taking upward delegation. They're actually taking on assignments from their direct reports. An email can quickly pass on, or potentially even a text, �Hey Nina, I'm stuck with something. Could you check on this
: with so and so?" It's like they have now given you a task that you can't say, no, I need you to do that. My question, and this is a sincere question, is if you are managing your direct reports through text or email, how do you prevent your direct reports from actually giving you assignments when that's not? Really appropriate because if they ask you for something they can't move forward Until you get back to them and you've got your own important tasks that you're doing Yeah, Am I clear with my question?
30:34 - 31:01
Nina Johnson: I'll try to answer and tell me if I don't answer it. I think 1, every situation, you've got to determine what's the best communication method, first of all. I think if there is an email task, I mean a task that has to go up via text. I think you just have to be clear on who's doing what. So if it's, Joe, you've got this task, it's due this day and I need you to do XYZ, I'll check back in with you this. If you need to connect with it, let's talk on the phone. Because I think
31:01 - 31:09
Nina Johnson: texts are good for short, quick direction, but if you require a conversation, I think that's when you say, let's hop on a phone call.
: Minimum of a phone. If you've got a remote team, a phone is fine. That's a face-to-face conversation in my opinion, but it's not an email or a text or some other or even a voice message. Hey, Nina, would you do this? And, and, and it's like, they're assigning you something that you can't reject in that, in that moment.
31:26 - 31:43
Nina Johnson: Agree. That's why I think, you know, it's, it's each, each situation that's unique for it. So I always feel like if it requires an actual conversation back and forth, do the phone call. If it's something that is very standard or something that doesn't require a conversation, a text works fine.
: Okay, so you agree with the old dude, William Unkin, he'd be so proud.
31:47 - 31:50
Nina Johnson: Well, I'll have to check out his Harvard Business Review article.
: Yeah, I'll send it to you if you're interested.
32:07 - 32:47
Christian Napier
: Well, as you mentioned, Spencer, 1 of our viewers, Laura, she got back to us, right? She gave us a little bit more context. And if I understand correctly, basically the situation is like this, particularly in blue collar fields. So paraphrasing what Laura wrote here Young person gets hired into job wants to receive a promotion and so But 1 of the motivations that is to not have to work with the old folks, right? So and I think, again, some of this comes back to, and I think particularly in Blue Collar, I Just look back at my own
32:47 - 33:26
Christian Napier
: experience working for my grandfather so my my grandfather was a carpenter and a house painter by trade, you know, so that's what he did and he would take me on jobs and For a long time it was just hold this Hand me that, put that over there, you know, the task. So yeah, I did not feel like, and I don't blame him, cause I was like 14, 15 years old. I mean who am I? You know, and he didn't trust me to do certain things and so it was more dictatorial and this is how we do
33:26 - 33:56
Christian Napier
: it and we do it my way. This is the way it's done and as a young person you just resent that naturally. You just have this rebellious inclination to say, well you know the work that I'm doing is boring and he doesn't want me to contribute, like he doesn't trust me, so on and so forth. And so there can be some natural antagonism I think between generations, kind of alluding to what I was talking about earlier where you got the old folks saying well this is how it's done and we've done it like this for years
33:56 - 34:32
Christian Napier
: and years and years and you get the new people coming in saying well maybe we can do it a different way and there's a bit of a there's a bit of a clash there. But I want to come to you Nina back to your point about different life stages and what you saw and also how this could this could impact generations because for a lot of boomers When they grew up and went to school Their parents weren't taking them to school. They were walking to school or they were taking the bus to school parents weren't dropping
34:32 - 35:00
Christian Napier
: them off. They may not have had daycare because mom was stay at home. This, their formative years were very different, which is why when they started in the workforce, coming in at 08:00 in the morning was fine and it didn't cause any family disruptions because school was over there and I never had to worry about taking my kids to school. Whereas you're like, well, I'm a mom, I got 3 kids and I got to pack all this stuff up and I got to get them to school and I got to drive them all over here and
35:00 - 35:12
Christian Napier
: there and the other and for them growing up they didn't have to do that because they didn't drive their kids to school. I mean as a kid I would be embarrassed if my parents took me to school. I did not want my parents.
: You are such a geezer.
35:13 - 35:53
Christian Napier
: I didn't want them showing up in the old you know you know I'm climbing out of this old Chrysler Cordova with a little, you know, like, I don't want my friends to see me, you know, getting out of a car that my parents, so I wanted to go to school on my own. So I'm curious, you know, how that plays into how different generations feel about each other because they grew up in very different times. And it's hard to compare it, you know. What I grew up as a kid in the 70s walking to school with
35:53 - 36:00
Christian Napier
: my tuba, was very different than my children's experience getting driven to school every day. You had
: to carry a freaking tuba?
36:02 - 36:06
Christian Napier
: Well, with a baritone, but yeah, like a small tuba.
: People, that's resilience, Christian. I mean, to carry that, I mean, it's like a, that's like, yeah,
36:11 - 36:12
Christian Napier
: it was training actually. In the snow,
: I used
36:12 - 36:13
Christian Napier
: to go both ways.
: Right, I had to carry a tuba.
36:16 - 36:55
Nina Johnson: In the snow, in the snow. You sound exactly what a baby would say to me. No, that's true. I think the experiences are different and I'll go back to reference. It's just about respecting personal time, however that looks like, whether it's with your family or I managed someone that did not have any kids, not married, but I remember she told me that my personal time is just as important to me as your time with your family. She's like, I've got exercise classes, I've got commitment with friends. And she had really laid it out very strongly and
36:55 - 37:25
Nina Johnson: confidently. And I said, you're absolutely right. So that's why I want to change the discussion truly about respecting personal time and whatever that is, whether it's family commitments, your personal life, you know, personal commitments and how it is because everybody is different. I think, you know, if you look at me and what I do with my kids, it's right. It's absolutely different than when I was a kid. I actually did walk to school every day. There was no parents dropping me off. But I was probably doing 1 activity versus now. I could probably tell you 5
37:25 - 37:31
Nina Johnson: out of the 7 days, our kids are in activities, you know? So there's all those different commitments that we manage.
: So to your point of respecting people differently, we have Stacey Barra who has another comment I think is really good. And she's just talking about, if I'm working later on the weekend, I set the delivery delays so no 1 feels obligated to respond from internal teammates. Because there's a lot of pressure. In some cultures, it's expected that you are working 24-7, that you've got leaders that are sending out texts or emails at 3 AM. And if you're not responding, come on, we're in a hustle and moving and shaking environment. So so that creates a lot of
: expectation that creates a tremendous amount of anxiety. And I think that's something that the younger generations do not tolerate. And so another comment from 1 of your fans, Nina.
38:26 - 38:52
Nina Johnson: Yeah, spot on. I think I'll kind of reference Stacy's thing really quickly. I think that's a great tip on Outlook. You can set the default. I picked that up a couple of years ago as well, just because I got called out on. I am naturally a late night, late owl. I stay up late after the kids go to bed, kind of knocking out emails. And I realized people are getting a little bit panicky when I'd be sending emails late. So I use that outlook to lay on, which I think is, is really key. And those are
38:52 - 39:21
Nina Johnson: some of the tips I would also say as any leader, when they come join a new team is to lay out expectations of how you work your work style and understanding what your team's work style is, because everybody is really different. So I remember the last group that I managed on the very first day when I introduced myself, I was just like, Hey, I don't want any meetings before 830. I will not be able to make it and we're not going to have any meetings past 4. Like at least within our team, let's establish that as
39:21 - 39:28
Nina Johnson: a criteria. And I think it's important to lay out expectations both for yourself and what your team members need as well, because they have their own commitments.
: A hundred percent agree. And It's easier done early on in the relationship than later, so that you don't create Because in the absence of information, people make assumptions and it's usually the wrong 1. I do want to just continue on that theme of communication with maybe a different focus. So when it comes to communication, this is really a, hopefully also a leadership tip. How do you give feedback to the different generations? Because there's gonna be times when, you know, I talked about, you know, delegation, somebody follows, you know, doesn't follow through or complete an assignment as
: needed, and you need to have a discussion with them about performance. How do you handle that feedback with those different generations?
40:09 - 40:40
Nina Johnson: That is good. I'm probably not gonna even answer this correctly. This is just my perspective, but I tend to be a very honest communicator when I give feedback. Because I think for me, you can only grow and learn when you receive that honest feedback of what you can do to improve. Once you really lay out that honesty, it's a matter of how you deliver that message. So I think some people, I forgot if this method is called like the sandwich method, where you start it with something positive, like, hey, great, you know, I know you worked
40:40 - 41:12
Nina Johnson: really hard on that project. I appreciate all the hours you put on there, but could you think next time you could improve on XYZ? So when you take on the next project, then you close with ending on a positive note. I feel like that sandwich method of positive, then communication of feedback for improvement and closing with a positive works really well in general, but especially with the younger generation because they want to know you're ending the note on a positive. For older generation, you can be a little bit more direct. You know, it's, you know, I
41:12 - 41:23
Nina Johnson: think this is what you need to improve on a project or a skill set. And here's why, and here's how I can help you. And they'll take that, you don't need to always sugarcoat it as often, I feel like.
: So I'm gonna ask for your feedback here, because can I share with you how I deal with that?
41:30 - 41:30
Nina Johnson: Yes, yes.
: I do believe that all the generations have their own answers and have their own ideas. I believe fundamentally that people are whole and capable. When you're 14, Christian, it's a little bit different because there's levels of managing people, right? There is micromanagement when people first start because there is no trust. A little less micromanagement is, you know, go do that and then return and report. He had to tell you everything to do. And then even less micromanagement is, you know, go do and report to me once a week. Ultimately, where we want to get with our
: people is just keep me informed. And that's where there's a huge level of trust because we know people are going to be like you, Nina, and a self-starter and those are the people that we make our leaders. But if you're developing those on your team, That's what we want. So my perspective is I want to create leaders on my team. I want people to think critically. So if I'm always giving them the answers to their problems, I'm training them to be dependent on me. So if there is a problem or a behavior, I, this is Christian,
: you're the 1 who screwed up so I'm going to talk to you. Hey Christian, you know, I called you into my office today to talk to you about the fact that this is going to be completely banal and inane. In the last month, you know, Christian's a supervisor, in the last month you've been late 6 times. You didn't get in by 08:00 as the expectation was. And as a result, you're setting an example for the rest of your team that it's okay to show up whenever they want. So first of all, do you acknowledge that you've
: been late the last, you know, 6 times in the last month?
43:12 - 43:23
Christian Napier
: I disagree. I have not been late. I, I don't know what you're talking about. I come here on time. And why don't you talk about the 13 times that I showed up early, Spencer? I mean, are you
: only being- No, I appreciate those 13 times that you were here on time.
43:26 - 43:33
Christian Napier
: Why don't you tell me about all the times where I'm going above and beyond and you never say anything about that.
: I absolutely I'm a good manager, so I did anyway. But anyway, so here's the time card. I'm nothing personal here. Here are the times that you relate. That is that right, Christian?
43:45 - 43:48
Christian Napier
: Well, I mean, that's what the system says, I guess. Great.
: And you're right, you do a lot of things. And the impact of you not being here is X. So my question is to you, what's going on? What's happening? Why is that happening? Because this is not like you. You're a great leader here and your team really looks to you for an example. What happens is instead of me going into solution right away, let's figure out what's going on. You know what's going on? He has a car problem and so he can't get his kids to school on time.
44:13 - 44:16
Nina Johnson: I love that you ask what is happening.
: Don't go into solution mode right away. Just ask what's going on. I am so sorry that's happening. What I'd like to know is just because of the importance for you to be here on time to set that example for your team, how are you going to handle this? How do you recommend that you solve the problem?" And I do not give them, because it's not coaching if I tell them what to do. Again, if I give you the solution and it doesn't work, there's no ownership there. And the kids today want to take ownership. They want
: to know that they matter. So I'm giving it to you and you're like, well, I'll just try harder. I appreciate that and is there something you can do specifically?" He says, you know what? My car is not going to be fixed for like 2 weeks. Is it possible that I change my starting time temporarily from 9 to 6 instead of from 8 to 5. And I said, sure, that works. How are you gonna handle that with your team? So you clearly set the expectations with them. I'm not telling him, but I'm leading him in that direction
: of what he needs to do. And that way, I think it doesn't matter what age because it's their approach. I mean I'd love your feedback on that.
45:22 - 45:31
Nina Johnson: No, I think that is spot on actually. I'm bummed I did not say that but you're right. I think it, 1, I think you're showing empathy because you're asking them like what's
: happening, what's going on?
45:33 - 45:53
Nina Johnson: And then 2, by giving them options for the solution, then it also helps build accountability too, right? It's, well, I told my boss that, you know what, I'm gonna tweak my schedule and come in 30 minutes later and start 30 minutes later. I love that. I think you have to always ask foundationally, like what's happening here before just addressing, giving them the solution.
: But that conversation, Nina, takes time, which is what people need today. And too many of leaders, I believe, are so busy being efficient that they're not being effective. We need to be able to slow down and have those conversations that let people know that you're important.
46:09 - 46:09
Christian Napier
: And of
: course, like I said, it was a banal example, Christian, you'd never be late.
46:13 - 46:57
Christian Napier
: Yeah. Yeah, well, and sorry for turning on my rebellious wheelchair in my brain. It's completely plausible. To push back, because in real life, I would never talk that way to pretty much anybody, but, you know, we're just acting here. Nina, I want to come back to a couple of things that you proposed that we touch on in our conversation. 1 is you mentioned that you'd watched the episode that we did with Tavia Sharp and on image and generational thinking about image. And then another 1 was interviews and how interviews differ between the generations. So maybe you
46:57 - 47:03
Christian Napier
: can kind of tell us a little bit more about those particular aspects of multi-generational teams.
47:03 - 47:39
Nina Johnson: Yep, I'll mention Tavia's first cause I thought this was really insightful. She talked about image was, and I wrote this down, it was ABCD, which was essentially appearance, behavior, communication, and your digital presence. And that's what makes up your image. And as I thought through this multi-generational piece of it, it is so true how different each of those aspects. You know, we talk about something as basic as appearance. You know, before, think about the work styles was very professional, more formal, like men came in button-down shirts, tie suits, to now we have offices that are business
47:39 - 48:13
Nina Johnson: casual, casual jean Fridays, or some that is far casual everyday work environment where it was jeans and flip-flops and me coming in, I was still unsure because I had never started the workforce in a casual environment. So I was still wearing blouses with jeans while you had Gen Zs literally wearing T-shirts and shorts and flip-flops to work. So appearance is 1 important thing. Second, behavior. We talked a lot about this, I think, in general, whether it's formal, informal, how we interact, the loyalty and motivations. The third is communication. We spent a lot of time just talking
48:13 - 48:46
Nina Johnson: about text, email, face-to-face, how do people socialize and post. And digital. I think digital is really important because think about even something as we'll talk about something general that we're familiar with, LinkedIn, right? LinkedIn, I don't even know when it existed, but I remember when I first started, I didn't really have a LinkedIn profile, but now it's really prevalent. In addition to that, you have a lot of other just social media platforms that people are posting on, but also companies are posting on. I would I would tell you that almost every interview that I've done for
48:46 - 49:06
Nina Johnson: the younger generation, people will ask, what is the company's like Instagram or digital presence? They'll kind of watch it if something major happens in the news, right? What's the company stance? I think digital has such a profound impact on both a company's image, as well as your personal image that differs from different generations.
: Well, go ahead, Christian.
49:22 - 49:44
Christian Napier
: Oh, I was just going to say, I just looked at the clock and I'm, I cannot believe that we've gone almost 50 minutes, but this, this conversation has been super informative and enlightening for me. And I will take the principles I've learned here and I will incorporate them into my own work.
: Uh-oh. I
49:48 - 49:50
Nina Johnson: think we lost Christian for a little bit.
49:50 - 50:02
Christian Napier
: Oh, because I hit the mute button because my phone was ringing in the background and I forgot to unmute it. Speaking of old generation, I'm 1 of the few people that still has a landline.
: I don't have a landline. I'm older than you and I don't have a landline.
50:08 - 50:10
Nina Johnson: You can put your landline on your resume.
50:13 - 50:42
Christian Napier
: No, landline not on the resume, but I still have a landline. I just have an emotional attachment to our phone number for some reason. I don't know, I don't wanna give it up. But I was just saying that this has been a fascinating conversation. I've really enjoyed this time. And maybe before we adjourn, if you've got some closing thoughts, you know, to kind of put a bow on this multi-generational conversation, what would those closing thoughts be, Nina?
50:43 - 51:11
Nina Johnson: I would say I think Working cross multi-generation should be viewed as a positive, a competitive advantage. I think what you can learn if you're open yourself, your company, your culture creates that openness and harness, you will learn so much more than working with just the exact same peer group. Trust me, I'm managing teams, I'm being part of teams that are multi-generation, I've experienced, learned a lot more than I could have just been working with the same age group.
: I mean, I love that, I think that is so right. And I'm not gonna let her finish with the tie-up just quite yet. What do you predict in the future? What things can we look for? Are there going to be any new dynamics? You're talking about right now we have more generations than ever. What do you see potentially coming? What do we need to be ready for as leaders? Just to close that gap of, as you talk about that preparation gap or readiness gap.
51:42 - 52:15
Nina Johnson: I think the workplace of the younger generation is going to involve more digitally, because I see that happening now. We talked about email and text, but now a lot of the email platforms just have Microsoft Chat, so that middle version. I think you're going to see more and more digital platforms of communication than face-to-face. I think as we go into more hybrid, like hybrid is now permanent. I don't think remote is gonna be forever, but I think hybrid will be like kind of the new norm. So the engagement of how people interact to both video as
52:15 - 52:40
Nina Johnson: well as offline. And lastly is just, I think every generation will continue to grow, meaning today's Gen Z is gonna, you know, they probably know it all, and that as they age 20 years, it's gonna be a whole nother slew of uniqueness that I probably won't even be able to predict because I'm always amazed that every decade how much more the workforce has evolved.
: Do you believe in that commercial, is it progressive, this is children becoming their parents?
52:47 - 52:51
Nina Johnson: You know, I would say no, but I probably am turning into my parents.
: The kids all turn into their parents eventually and then the same problems keep persisting. So it just goes.
53:00 - 53:36
Christian Napier
: All right, well, again, this has been a fascinating conversation, Nina. I am so grateful that you took time to join us today. Listeners and viewers also, thank you so much for participating in the conversation, really added a lot. But Nina, If people who are listening or viewing this podcast, if they want to learn more about you, the way that you lead mentor teams, if they wanna connect with you to learn more about your multi-generational approach to team building, what's the best way for them to reach out and contact you?
53:37 - 53:50
Nina Johnson: Yes, please follow me on LinkedIn. I'm very active, Nina Johnson. I always, I'm pretty active in my posts. I post weekly and I'm always open to connections and making new acquaintances and friends that way.
: We're new connections.
53:53 - 53:54
Nina Johnson: Yes, we are.
53:57 - 54:16
Christian Napier
: Yes, and Spencer, you've spent decades helping organizations around the world. Old food. Develop high performing teams. Yeah, okay, Boomer. Yeah, exactly. If people wanna connect to the boomer on the cusp, How do they reach out and connect with you?
: I'll tell you how you do it. Today, you come to Red Iguana 2 and have lunch with Christian and Patrick and me. Come up to us and say, hi, I'm the bald guy you see here. So come see us at Red Iguana. We're headed there right now after this, right?
54:31 - 54:35
Christian Napier
: That's right. Nina, that's our favorite Mexican restaurant.
: We've been going there for 20 years to Red Iguana. It's incredible Mexican food. So if you're not there at Red Iguana at 1130 or noon, then reach out to
54:46 - 55:15
Christian Napier
: me on LinkedIn. That's the best way. And Christian, if people can't find you at Red Iguana today, where else can they find you? Well, let's make it 3 cheers for LinkedIn today. Yeah. Just look me up on LinkedIn. Happy to connect with anyone. Listeners, viewers, again, thank you so much for participating. Like and subscribe to our podcast and we'll catch you again soon. And Nina, thank You