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If you could ask God one question what would it be? The “Why God Why” podcast is dedicated to exploring the questions that matter most in your life.
Deep questions often don’t have easy answers. We realize that we won’t solve all the world’s problems in one podcast. Our goal is to share our life experience, interview knowledgeable guests and look at how Jesus might interact with our concerns. We also hope to have a ton of fun in the process because even though the issues might be serious, it doesn’t mean that we always need to be.
No matter where you are on your spiritual journey, we are honored to have you with us!
00:11 - 00:41
Alyssa Matz: Hello and welcome to the Why God Why podcast. My name is Alyssa Matz and I'm 1 of your hosts today. We're so excited to be here talking about our topics mental health, which is 1 that I'm really, really excited to talk about ever since it was brought up that I could be a host of this podcast. I've been like really excited for all the mental health episodes. And then when I found out that we are going to be interviewing the guests that we're interviewing today, I got even more excited. So I've just really been looking forward
00:41 - 01:10
Alyssa Matz: to this. I think it's an important topic. I think it's a timely topic. And I think it's a great question to bring up, especially as we're in our series about questions of our day and things that are relevant to people and the questions that people have. We are a podcast that exists to answer the questions that people may not feel comfortable asking in church. And I think that mental health is 1 of those topics that people may not feel comfortable talking about for a variety of reasons. So I'm really excited to get into it today. Let
01:10 - 01:12
Alyssa Matz: me introduce who we have.
01:14 - 01:23
Amanda D'Angelo: I'm Amanda D'Angelo. I'm so glad to be part of this podcast. I don't have a degree in mental health, but I honestly wish I did. Truly. I think if I did go to ministry, I would be going into counseling.
01:23 - 01:37
Alyssa Matz: They overlap. And for those of you who don't know, I have a degree in mental health. I have my master's in social work. And part of the reason that I pursued that was because I saw how much it intersected with my faith.
01:37 - 01:37
Amanda D'Angelo: Absolutely. I
01:37 - 01:39
Alyssa Matz: think there's a great overlap.
01:39 - 01:39
Amanda D'Angelo: I agree.
01:40 - 01:55
Alyssa Matz: And we have our 2 amazing guests today and I think they've both been on the podcast in some way or the other before. So I'm really excited to introduce Robyn Englert and her mother, Kathy Elliott. Welcome.
01:55 - 01:59
Robyn Englert: Thank you. Thanks for having us again. Just not together. So.
01:59 - 01:59
Kathy Elliott: Oh, that's a.
01:59 - 02:00
Robyn Englert: Yeah, This is the
02:00 - 02:04
Amanda D'Angelo: first time you guys are together on a podcast. Oh, I love that. That's great.
02:04 - 02:10
Alyssa Matz: That's so exciting. How are you guys feeling just about the topic in general, being here
02:10 - 02:18
Kathy Elliott: in general? I'm excited to be here, and I'm in love with this topic as well. So I'm looking forward to this.
02:18 - 02:31
Robyn Englert: I'm excited and a little nervous because I'm like there's so much that I want to say and I want to say it clearly because I want to do justice to this but I'm like here we go. So yeah but the excitement and the anxiety are right there going back
02:31 - 02:33
Alyssa Matz: and forth. So that makes sense. That makes sense. And
02:33 - 02:35
Amanda D'Angelo: I appreciate the honesty, too. Yeah.
02:36 - 02:47
Alyssa Matz: Do you want to give our listeners a little bit of background on each of you? Just do a little introduction. Tell us how long you've been working in mental health, what you do, some of your passions in that area.
02:48 - 02:48
Kathy Elliott: Yeah, do
02:48 - 02:48
Amanda D'Angelo: you want
02:48 - 03:23
Kathy Elliott: to go first? Okay, I've been a social worker since I was age 8. Well, not actually, but I felt like at age 8, I began to kind of take care of other people and look out for the underdog. I wasn't officially trained in mental health counseling until into my 30s. I started my career as a high school English teacher, and what I really loved about that, in addition to the teaching, was the interaction with the students. And I thought, I don't know how to relate to them or talk with them as much as I'd like to,
03:23 - 03:50
Kathy Elliott: so I thought, I'll go take some courses. So I went back to school and I got my master's in counseling. And then, I thought, well, why don't we start a counseling agency? So I made myself a job and started Agape counseling and left teaching after a little bit and then moved into the counseling full-time. So I've been doing that probably across 4 or 5 decades.
03:50 - 03:51
Robyn Englert: Wow. Yeah.
03:52 - 04:06
Amanda D'Angelo: Wow. That's amazing. And I know so many people, because we're out of Browncroft Community Church, and so many people have been blessed by Agape Counseling, used to be here in this building. So I just really appreciate what you've done, Kathy. It's great. Yeah. What about you, Robyn?
04:06 - 04:33
Robyn Englert: Yeah. Well, as was mentioned, I am Kathy Elliott's daughter. And so I kind of grew up in a home where counseling, like she was a counselor. So it was a little bit more commonplace. And so when I was 5, I would go down to her office and I would sit down and get the little notepad and I would tell her, tell me all your problems. She often would go into, well, I have these kids. And I said, let me stop you. It's not your kids. Tell me what your real problems are. Wow, you are professional. As
04:33 - 04:33
Robyn Englert: a parent,
04:33 - 04:34
Amanda D'Angelo: I realized it was the kids.
04:41 - 05:14
Robyn Englert: But I think that was kind of my introduction just to kind of the helping profession and kind of actually even kind of with mom, we were located in the church. So my interaction with counseling has been a very positive kind of mental health and faith, but I know that's not everybody's experience. And so we'll get into that a little bit more later. But I also was kind of drawn into the field and I got my Masters of Social Work knowing I wanted to use it clinically after having friends and, you know, just kind of loved ones
05:14 - 05:52
Robyn Englert: that that went through hard times and wanting to really be there for them. And I would agree, I think there's so much overlap between faith and mental health that I was like, we don't have to divide them. How can we bring them together for true healing from our the ultimate counselor? So I have been in the field not as long as mom, but I'm actually coming up to 18 years of being a counselor, mental health therapist in the field. So excited for that, and just really loving the privilege of coming alongside people. So,
05:53 - 05:58
Alyssa Matz: yeah. I love that, and I love that you both are in the same field. It's like a family affair.
05:58 - 05:58
Kathy Elliott: It's a
05:58 - 05:59
Alyssa Matz: family business.
05:59 - 06:07
Kathy Elliott: It's been very special. Oh. To do seminars with her or teach with her, so it's been a joy. Amazing.
06:07 - 06:08
Alyssa Matz: That's so
06:08 - 06:12
Amanda D'Angelo: special. I also wish I could just could have witnessed that moment where you're interviewing your mom as a five-year-old.
06:13 - 06:49
Alyssa Matz: I like pictured in my head. Totally. Oh, I love it. You did bring up a good point though about not everybody has a positive experience with mental health or mental illness integrated with faith or with the Christian church or even maybe with Browncroft. You never know. So it's important that we're talking about this topic today, and that's why our question is doesn't the church dismiss mental health? Because for some people or some churches, some cases, that's what happened. So I'm really excited to talk about that and to be honest about that.
06:49 - 06:53
Amanda D'Angelo: Yeah, for sure. Why don't we start with a definition?
06:54 - 06:54
Kathy Elliott: Okay.
06:55 - 07:06
Amanda D'Angelo: How would you 2 define mental illness, mental health? Let's start with that. Because then, I think that will help frame where we're going to head and build off of
07:06 - 07:07
Alyssa Matz: that. That's so true.
07:07 - 07:31
Kathy Elliott: Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I'll start with mental health, and then I'll let you do the mental illness. It's emotional, psychological, and social sense of well-being, and an overall sense of being able to cope with the normal stresses, and able to work in a way that we can contribute to our community.
07:33 - 08:07
Robyn Englert: Great, so that's kind of mental health, And then mental illness is characterized by the alterations in thinking, mood, or behavior associated with a sign of distress or impaired functioning. And so this can affect people socially, so kind of in relationships, at work, if they're not able to kind of follow through on tasks or show up, or with family activity. So it shows up in different areas of life. And often with mental illness, it's gonna be a little bit more pervasive. So you might even see it in all 3 of those areas that you're affected.
08:10 - 08:24
Amanda D'Angelo: Is there anything that you would say doesn't fall under that category? Like a lot of people put this thing in mental illness and it's not there? Or is it like anything that that's a struggle would be under that category? Like...
08:25 - 08:40
Kathy Elliott: I think even under mental health, there's going to be... We can be neurotic, we can have issues, we can have stressors, that sort of thing. But when it begins, any of those stressors begin to interfere with how we function,
08:40 - 08:41
Robyn Englert: then
08:41 - 08:56
Kathy Elliott: we move that to mental illness. So your question, though, was, are there things that we would put in there that wouldn't be even under mental health a stressor? It's a very good question.
08:56 - 09:14
Alyssa Matz: Yeah. Yeah, I agree with what you were saying, and you guys have much more experience than me, but I'm just thinking about some examples. Maybe people say like, oh, I feel so anxious right now. That's mental health, but that's different from having an anxiety disorder, which would be mental
09:14 - 09:15
Robyn Englert: illness, right?
09:15 - 09:16
Alyssa Matz: Is that the good?
09:16 - 09:55
Robyn Englert: Yeah, kind of the severity. So if you're going to get a diagnosis of major depressive disorder, bipolar, OCD, whatever, there's certain criteria you have to meet. So you can be anxious without having an anxiety disorder. You can be sad without being depressed. But I do think in our culture today, we like to throw around these terms so they're not always used correctly. There's some big ones right now and sometimes they're used correctly, but like I'll say narcissism I think is a big word right now that someone might be arrogant or difficult, but not quite meet the
09:55 - 10:13
Robyn Englert: criteria for narcissism, but we can still get the point of what they're trying to say. So I think clarifying those terms, you know, if I'm working with somebody and I do think they have a disorder, we would kind of say that versus worry. We would try to help them understand what the differences are.
10:14 - 11:02
Kathy Elliott: That makes sense. That's helpful. Could I differentiate that from sin? We talk about mental health and mental illness, and too often, things are attributed to just sin. And I think of sin as missing the mark, but also an illegitimate way to get a legitimate need met. So, for example, it might be a kid might be very lonely, not fit in, maybe feels abandoned, and so he finds a gang and then gets into the behaviors of gang life. That looks like sin, but there really is a mental health and distress component to that. So I think sometimes
11:02 - 11:13
Kathy Elliott: the church has not differentiated, and not just the church, but a lot of people, and just call things sin when there are really underlying factors for it.
11:13 - 11:17
Amanda D'Angelo: Do you find that there always is something underlying? Yes.
11:18 - 11:26
Robyn Englert: 1 of the phrases that I heard a lot growing up and now kind of say myself is there's always a reason behind the behavior.
11:26 - 11:27
Kathy Elliott: If
11:27 - 11:57
Robyn Englert: you know anybody who's in mental health you don't say always never like all that stuff but there's always a reason behind the behavior, which is what mom would say kind of growing up. And it's, we need to see kind of what's behind that, what's beneath that. And I think even taking that step, whether it's a sin, you know, if we're going to come at it from kind of the faith perspective, legitimate sin, whether it's kind of a worry, like what's going on beneath that? Because that's going to actually be what we need to address or resolve
11:57 - 12:02
Robyn Englert: or work with, not just the behavior. That's only surface. Right.
12:02 - 12:21
Alyssa Matz: That makes a lot of sense. And the way that you brought up that sometimes a church conflates sin and mental illness, it just reminds me, well, of our question today, and the church dismissing mental health. What other misconceptions or other ways the Church has handled mental health? What have you seen that has been unhealthy?
12:22 - 13:06
Kathy Elliott: Mm-hmm. I think way back when we first began agape, that was back in the earlier days, I think it was more common than it is now for people to say psychology and the Bible or Christianity are not compatible. And so if someone was going to see a counselor, you don't have enough faith, or you don't trust. Or if you take medication, you don't trust God to heal you. Some of those things, I think, were more common 40 years ago than they are now, although that still does exist some places. So those are there are a few.
13:07 - 13:07
Kathy Elliott: What else?
13:08 - 13:35
Robyn Englert: I kind of to piggyback on that, like you don't have enough faith or trust. You didn't pray about this. Or I was even thinking, you know, we talked about sin, like sometimes it's if there's struggle going on and someone's like, oh, they must have sinned, like what is the sin? And can think about that even if we go to the scriptures with Job and his friends, like towards, you know, kind of that part of their discussion, but also in John 9, when the man was born blind. And, you know, kind of the people around us like
13:35 - 14:11
Robyn Englert: who sinned this man or his parents. And I think that sometimes, you know, kind of there's a jump to that. Also, you know, we kind of talk a little bit about the spiritual bypassing. Let go and let God, which absolutely, like I think that is a, we want to work on trusting God, but I think that also simplifies it when there's a mental health struggle or mental illness, it's not always a simple solution. So while I agree, we need to absolutely be be trusting God. And he is the great physician. I said he's a great counselor.
14:11 - 14:27
Robyn Englert: He's a great physician. Like, absolutely. Like, those are some of the, you know, kind of the roles that he can fill. But I also think we have to be careful of minimalizing what people are going through if we kind of give a cliche or kind of a pat answer.
14:28 - 15:09
Kathy Elliott: I think there was another take on that too as bad behavior or mental illness was demonic. You must have a demon attributed to that, or even ADHD. There's not a disorder, there's just bad kids. You just need to get them to toe the line. And I think, how sad. Those kinds of things grieve with me. And I think that even when I was little, young, those kinds of things bothered me that really, the judgment of people based on some behavior that they were bad. And I think that's part of what God used maybe to take me
15:09 - 15:11
Kathy Elliott: into the field of counseling.
15:12 - 15:47
Amanda D'Angelo: The example you gave of the kid who gets into a gang because like he's doesn't feel supported, loved at however you phrase it. Like that immediately made me think of how people in the church or people in leadership could say, I am perceiving the situation from my own perspective, first of all, but almost like fears of our own. It's to be like, I've got to handle the sin, or like, there's got to be this, you know, the way that I perceive it. And which is just, to me, that's also sad because we're not looking at the
15:47 - 15:56
Amanda D'Angelo: person for what's truly going on and taking the time truly to also go deeper. And I know there's been a lot of hurt just because of that.
15:56 - 16:34
Kathy Elliott: I think of promiscuity, you know, is that's all sin. And it's the need to be loved. Often that drives that. We are driven by our needs, and then we behave as a result, and we do what we think is gonna get our needs met. And so someone who hasn't felt loved, hasn't felt connected, may very well be susceptible to find a relationship somewhere where I get some skin or I get hugged or whatever, because I need to feel that. And it's the deficit and that need, you know, that drives so much of that. Yes, is it
16:34 - 16:49
Kathy Elliott: wrong? Yes, we can't excuse those kinds of behaviors, but we have to understand them. And I think at times, it's not been understood. It's just been, tag, sinful, bad kid, or whatever.
16:49 - 17:03
Alyssa Matz: Right. That was going to be my question is, what do you think causes these issues or these misconceptions about mental health? What's the root cause? Is it a lack of education, a lack of understanding? Why is this stuff happening?
17:04 - 17:42
Robyn Englert: I think that's a great question. I think there can be a few different, you know, kind of contributing factors, but 1 I think would be a lack of understanding. And kind of going to what you said a little bit, Amanda, like, we fear what we don't know. And I think mental health is something that they don't teach in ministry classes to the extent that they should. Some programs will have a class, but it's limited. And so there's just not that understanding widespread. Some places are more well versed. But I think a lack of understanding, I think
17:42 - 18:18
Robyn Englert: fear also leads to the misconception, especially with mental illness. You know, if there's, if it's kind of more severe, you know, kind of psychosis or just kind of stuff that, again, we don't understand. We fear it. And so, you know, it's there. And 1 other thing, and I might be going off a little bit, but I wanted to kind of say this. I think 1, sometimes, you know, kind of from a faith perspective, we have our convictions, which there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but sometimes that becomes our priority of sharing the conviction before we kind
18:18 - 18:52
Robyn Englert: of know the person or understand the situation. And so I like to borrow Mark, your house has, just kind of this kind of 3 C's, kind of have your convictions, so you can have your convictions, but have them with civility and compassion. And so, and I think it starts with conversation. And if you don't understand what's going on for a person or why there might be a certain behavior, like can you educate yourself? Can you hear their story, their experience? But I love how, you know, kind of Mark Your House says it, because we don't have
18:52 - 19:01
Robyn Englert: to sideline our faith beliefs and our convictions, but we do have to when we're talking to people have compassion and civility and treat them like humans.
19:02 - 19:38
Kathy Elliott: You talked about fear, and I would just broaden that a little bit. It's fear that my theology isn't good enough, or what I believe. So I have to defend that and put a label on you, or stay away from you, or say, you know, that might be catching or if you even see a secular counselor, your faith is going to be challenged. So it might be some about my insecurity in my own relationship with God or belief sometimes. That it might sound like that's kind of a sidebar, but that could fuel also, I'm going to be
19:38 - 19:46
Kathy Elliott: more strong in condemning or labeling this mental illness, rather than understanding it.
19:46 - 20:01
Amanda D'Angelo: And as I listened to how you broke that down with the 3 C's, that takes work. That takes immense effort to say, I have my conviction, but to have it with, you said, the compatibility. Disability and compassion. Oh.
20:03 - 20:18
Robyn Englert: Well, and I would say that's so applicable even beyond mental health, because I'm thinking back to some of the past episodes you guys have had on Why God? Why, when we've talked about race, when we've talked about, I mean, that was the biggest 1 that I was thinking about. Now I'm stuck on that 1.
20:18 - 20:19
Amanda D'Angelo: But I
20:19 - 20:49
Robyn Englert: think it starts with, you know, kind of in 2020 when there was a lot going on in Rochester, like, we have to hear the story. We have to understand before we start to judge or get polarized. Because if we just come at people, I don't want people coming at me with convictions. Like, I will pull back. Like, I know myself. I might stand there, but I'm like, I'm not listening to you. And I'm like, if I'm doing that, do I think someone else is going to be different? So I think that those are important pieces with
20:49 - 20:58
Robyn Englert: it. So know what you believe in your values, absolutely. And you don't have to compromise those. But we do have to make sure that there's civility and compassion,
20:58 - 21:35
Alyssa Matz: 100%. I'm thinking about a story, but it makes me really grateful for living in the day and age that we do now, our modern times, and even living in a country where we have access to the internet and to research on mental health. It's a big topic. So it's really easy to just go online, read more, get some books, and get educated about mental health, even if you weren't educated in your college years or you're a little bit older. Like there's still opportunities for people to be educated and to learn more. Because, yeah, not only is
21:35 - 22:09
Alyssa Matz: it about personal compassion and conviction towards people, but it's about knowing how to handle things and maybe what's going on in people's lives. But I think about different cultures, too, because some countries, especially developing countries, may not have the same access to that education that we have in America. And I'm just thinking back to, this was probably about 10 years ago now. I was on a trip with some social workers in Haiti. And we were doing a needs assessment in a small community and just interviewing kids in the school to see what what their community needed
22:09 - 22:42
Alyssa Matz: and there was this 1 girl she was so young and we were talking to her about her life and she brings up through a translator, it brings up that she has nightmares and that she cries a lot, that she wakes up during the night. And then she tells us that it's okay though because she's being treated for it because the church told her that she's possessed by a demon and that they're going to give her an exorcism to get the demon out of her. And turns out, she also ended up sharing that she had been abused
22:42 - 23:20
Alyssa Matz: sexually in her life. And so as social workers, we were able to recognize, okay, this is PTSD. She's having panic attacks. She had a traumatic event in her life. And so, we were able to kind of explain that to the pastor of her church, and not to negate his beliefs, but he just simply wasn't aware that that was a thing that could happen. He jumped right to, oh, it's a demon, and this little girl is possessed. But because of that conversation that we got to have, we were able to give him resources and know that that's
23:20 - 23:50
Alyssa Matz: what that community needed because she's probably not the only 1 who's experiencing this. So it just makes me think, well, 1, to be grateful that we live in a time where we can access that kind of information, and then also bringing in a cultural perspective that not every culture even recognizes mental health as much as we do now. So I just thought of that in the context as a reason why mental health and the church may not be meshing, it could be cultural too.
23:50 - 24:22
Robyn Englert: Yeah. Well, and I think that trauma, like, because as soon as you were like, she was having nightmares, I was like, oh, that's a trauma response, you know, especially as you found out that there was abuse. But I think that's another part of kind of mental health. When there's trauma, we're going to have different responses. And so when, you know, and given, you know, just kind of unfortunately, you know, just kind of the stats on trauma, like a church the size of Browncroft, there's people who are sitting next to you who have had traumatic experiences. And
24:22 - 24:55
Robyn Englert: so if you're in worship and somebody just kind of has a, like they freeze, or they have to leave, or they're crying uncontrollably, sometimes we're like, oh no, we gotta just kind of take care of it. And it's like, that could be a traumatic response. How can we kind of meet them where they are? And not everybody's a trained counselor. So I don't mean like everybody has to sit down for an hour with that person, but not just try to see them and their experience and join with them to see how we can support them in
24:55 - 25:27
Robyn Englert: that season. And I think trauma, there's so much you can say about that, and you do have to have specialized training to kind of work with individuals in trauma. And so even kind of thinking about the church partnering with individuals who've had trauma, it's knowing what can the church do to support kind of what is their role, and then where might they need to refer out? Where might they need to, you know, kind of get more people on the team with that individual to kind of address the needs that they have? It doesn't mean the church
25:27 - 25:38
Robyn Englert: has to back out once they are connected, you know, with the therapist, but it's what is that role that the Church can continue to have while they're getting the additional support and services?
25:39 - 26:23
Kathy Elliott: Yeah. Can I share a quote that kind of goes along with that? This is from Darren Patrick, actually. He says, "'We often get sins and wounds confused.' Now, wounds, we all have wounds. And mental illness is a wound in the psyche and but we all carry wounds. But he says, sins are rebellious places in our hearts that need repentance. Wounds are tender places in our heart that need healing. You can't repent of wounds, and you can't get therapy for sins. And I thought that was really profound, separating that out, and sometimes we confuse, and I had
26:23 - 27:06
Kathy Elliott: said that earlier, that this woundedness is a sin. Confess. Confess that, maybe like anger. I'm really, confess your anger. You know what the Bible says about anger. Yes, but that anger has roots. What's under that? And it might be, you know, the trauma response. It might be grief. It might be a lot of things. And if we just say repent, we need healing and tenderness and being listened to when it's wounds. When it's sin, stop stealing. Yes, you're stealing for a reason. Let's explore that, but you need to stop the behavior. So, I just thought we
27:06 - 27:36
Kathy Elliott: do confuse that. Maybe less now than 10 or 15 or 20 years ago. There's more information, more availability, more Christian counselors, more podcasts and things. But, you know, for the Church to be able to really differentiate, what's going on? Like you said, there's always a reason. Or is it just rebellion? You're just, you know better, and we've talked about it, and you won't submit to what God says.
27:37 - 28:08
Amanda D'Angelo: With that quote and all that explanation, I think no wonder there has been spiritual abuse in the church. Like, no wonder, because we've only, we're going off of what we know which many people in leadership past or present know the bible but they don't know mental health that's right so if they can't blend those 2 like we've said from moment 1 they're only going to explain it with harsh conviction and condemnation, which is just it just explains a lot. So do you
28:08 - 28:11
Alyssa Matz: want to define spiritual abuse?
28:12 - 28:14
Amanda D'Angelo: I think if you guys could be great. You
28:14 - 28:17
Alyssa Matz: just brought up the wonderful term. So how would you?
28:17 - 28:57
Robyn Englert: That is a great term to define. The way that I define it, spiritual abuse, when someone uses spiritual or religious beliefs to hurt, scare, or control you. And I think, Obviously, there's the added kind of component with the spiritual part there, but just abuse in general to kind of even broaden that. It's the pattern of using fear, intimidation, violence, or other harm to control another. This can cause serious trauma, even spiritual abuse, obviously, but it can cause serious trauma and have a significant impact on mental health. Absolutely. And so I think that that is something that
28:57 - 29:31
Robyn Englert: there has, unfortunately, but there has been spiritual abuse. There is spiritual abuse. I don't mean to talk just past tense. And even kind of as mental health clinicians, we want to help educate kind of pastor, like how in clergy, how not to do that. But also for those that are in the congregation, like that's abuse. Like, how do you get out of that? Help them to recognize it, to recognize, you know, kind of the abusive tendency so that they're not just staying in an abusive situation as you would if it was an abusive marriage or other
29:31 - 30:02
Robyn Englert: relationship. But same thing with church, because that's distorting the love of God. I mean, all abuse is manipulation of power, but especially when it's distorting the view of God, which causes trauma And honestly, like leads to a lot of confusion about faith. Because I was supposed to trust you. You said this and it didn't feel right or I felt so scared or I was put down. Like, I don't know how to reconcile that. And then you bring God in.
30:02 - 30:26
Amanda D'Angelo: Oh yeah, absolutely. And sometimes even I found that people in leadership in the church become parental to me. Like not only does it feel like a father figure, my pastor, but it's like a reflection of how God. So you have to be able to recognize how it can be unhealthy. It's good to have that recognition. Love that.
30:26 - 30:56
Alyssa Matz: What would your advice be to someone like... So my job in the church, 1 of my jobs in the church is to work in congregational care. And I have a background in mental health. So I kind of understand this. When someone comes in and they're sharing deep things, they have anxiety, or whatever it is they're going through, I'm trained to do that. I'm looking for that. But there are so many people that work here. Amanda, for example, many people come in and talk to you and share problems with you or ask for advice. Like, I always
30:56 - 31:27
Alyssa Matz: see people in your office and that goes for anyone. I'm not going to name the military, But just working in a church in general that people come in, they're looking for help and maybe they feel connected to you so they go to you. But where do you kind of draw the line between, I guess I'm asking this on behalf of other people not on behalf of myself, between, Oh, this person needs my mentorship or my guidance or just to pray, or versus, oh, this person has a serious mental health issue and maybe they should be referred
31:27 - 31:39
Alyssa Matz: out. Maybe I should bring in congregational care. Maybe I should talk to a mental health therapist. Where's the line there? And how can we make sure that we're doing that in a healthy way so that doesn't lead to things like manipulation, over-spiritualization, or spiritual abuse?
31:39 - 31:39
Kathy Elliott: Mm-hmm.
31:40 - 32:15
Robyn Englert: It's a great question. I think some of where I would start, because everybody has a different background, is it's also say, in my role, but kind of in the church, what do I have to offer those that are coming in? So if, I mean, there's the mental health background, but it's also even if you are trained as a therapist or, you know, as a counselor, do I have the opportunity to journey with people long term? Does it have to be short? So I think some of that is even kind of assessing your practical abilities. But then
32:15 - 32:44
Robyn Englert: when there are some of those different topics that come up, and I'll let you kind of share some of when to refer out, I think it's knowing your limits and your lane. And I actually say that as a professional therapist, like when I'm talking with people about faith, I know my limits and laying there, we can talk about it, but I will say, I am not the spiritual expert like to get into, you know, kind of all of this too. So I would encourage you to talk to your church, your faith leader, you know, so, so
32:44 - 33:13
Robyn Englert: I think this isn't just for the church, but know when to refer. There's, I think, sometimes even just limits on how often can you meet with the person? Do they need more than I can give them? It might still be mentorship. It might not be professional help yet, but if they need more than I can give them, how can I help connect them? Be a resource, not just they came in and dumped this and now they're on their own, because that can be hard too. But you can do some of the...
33:13 - 33:46
Kathy Elliott: More than once I've been called into the prayer room. We had, We used to have a prayer room, and someone would come and find me and say, this person's suicidal, or this person's crying and is so depressed, we don't know what to do. And I think that was not an unusual kind of situation. Probably happens all over. I think you gave some good guidelines there in terms of staying in our lane. Particularly, you know, if we hear abuse, then we say, I need to not carry this alone if someone is suicidal, if someone begins to talk
33:46 - 34:32
Kathy Elliott: about violence, if they're substance, and I think there was another 1 that we used to list for our late counselors. If you begin to hear these, I think it was maybe affairs, you know, then maybe you need somebody else to be a part of that journey. But learning... I would wish that, actually, that all the leadership would be trained and laypeople as well, as many as wanted to. Kind of like we do with the security team, we have people that know what to look for. They know the signs for safety, and they are on the lookout
34:33 - 35:21
Kathy Elliott: for that. You walk around and you see people, and they're trying to notice to keep us safe. I wish we had a core of people that were trained. What to look for and be available to intervene or step up and invite further conversations so that we could meet those needs, maybe before they fester. I think I may be asking too much for a church congregation, But more people in the church trained as lay counselors. That some, the surveillance team maybe finds people or sees the indicators that someone's needing help. And then there's another level of trained
35:21 - 35:45
Kathy Elliott: lay counselors who can take that person to another level or spend a little bit more time and then maybe move many times onto the professionals. But to be able to have, I know this is ideal, or speaking of, but to have a core of people that have heart for this and are kind of on call, or on duty, in a sense, I think that would help.
35:46 - 35:47
Alyssa Matz: Oh, I'd love that.
35:47 - 35:56
Amanda D'Angelo: Oh, me too. I'm like, I'm making like, how can we make that happen? Can we make it happen at Brown Ground? It just sounds, I mean, if we do it for security purposes.
35:57 - 35:59
Alyssa Matz: Right, if we're doing it for people's physical health, we
35:59 - 36:24
Robyn Englert: should be doing it for their mental health. Absolutely. Oh, I love that. Well, and the church does it for the spiritual health too. Like you have the kind of the prayer team, they talk about, you know, kind of mentor. We have kind of that discipleship, because we're both on the discipleship team, you know. So, like we have that. And so it's like, this is just another facet of the human. We're mind, body, spirit. And so it's just saying, how are we taking care of all parts of the person?
36:25 - 36:27
Amanda D'Angelo: That's so true. Yeah, absolutely.
36:27 - 36:29
Alyssa Matz: What a good answer.
36:29 - 37:04
Kathy Elliott: You asked earlier, and I didn't address that, and say, what are your passions? 1 of my passions is training lay counselors. And for years, you know, we did that here, and lots and lots of people went through the lay counselor class, and most of them did not become lay counselors. They took those skills and used them with relationships. But I do have a passion for that, to see people just learn some basic attending skills and how to ask some questions. It could be marvelous, because that's all a lot of people need just be noticed just to
37:04 - 37:08
Kathy Elliott: be seen wow you perceive that I already feel more connected
37:09 - 37:30
Amanda D'Angelo: yes Wow Kathy you might be getting an email from me to get more training on that so truly I'm gonna note it down would you say that anything has changed in faith and mental health in the last 5 years? Like have we improved at all? Have things gotten worse? Like where, where are we at?
37:32 - 37:33
Kathy Elliott: Both. Okay.
37:39 - 38:11
Robyn Englert: So I think in the last 5 years, there has been, at least kind of in my experience, there's been an increased desire to learn and kind of openness to learn. I'm not saying everybody has mastered it yet, but I think that there's more of an openness and kind of a recognition. We can't ignore this. I mean, if you hear the stats of mental illness, you know, I was just looking at them. I'm not the best with keeping all of my numbers straight, but it was just recently 25% of the adults within you know, kind of the
38:11 - 38:45
Robyn Englert: US are going to have mental health struggles or mental illness, you know, at some point or currently and then, you know, even more than that at some point in their lives. So that's 1 in 4 people. Like I don't care the size of your church or your faith community like somebody has struggled or is struggling and so I think that there is a growing appreciation that we need to consider that. We still can work on kind of buffering that and blowing that up more. Some of the negative, as we've seen just kind of throughout our culture,
38:45 - 39:24
Robyn Englert: is I think there's more polarization and more divide. And I think that that has impacted the faith and mental health communities. I think that they have diversified or divided, sorry, more. Psychology can be more of a, from a faith perspective, they say, oh, it's more worldly, and it's just kind of not grounded in faith, and faith is, if we're not gonna be open to it, we have our convictions, but we're not willing to get to know people. Like, we're just dividing. And so, I have seen there's a growing appreciation as well as a growing divide. So...
39:25 - 39:27
Robyn Englert: Which might sound paradoxical.
39:28 - 40:16
Kathy Elliott: A couple observations. I think in my church here at Browncroft, there's a growing sensitivity in platform talk, if I could put it that way. I think the vulnerability of some of the folks leading worship, I think sometimes in the messages, there's more sensitivity to the need that may be out there in the congregation. I appreciate that a lot. And I think the Boy God Why podcasts, and many podcasts that are out there are addressing some of those concerns, the mental health, more so, I think, than in the past. A little less theology and a little bit
40:16 - 41:01
Kathy Elliott: more practicality, in a sense of... And even in sermons, I always love that when sermons are presented in a way that it's not just what you are aiming for, but how do you do that? And another thing in this church that is a passion of mine is celebrate recovery. A recovery ministry, there are other recovery ministries with grief and divorce and some others, but celebrate recovery hurts habits and hangups. And when there's a word from the platform that people are aware, oh, it's not just for substances. It's for our low self-esteem. It's for our hurts. It's
41:01 - 41:25
Kathy Elliott: for abandonment. It's for when I got jilted, or, oh, you know, I can go and I can find a place that's not judgmental and a place that's gonna give me some of those steps. I think there are, I don't know if the Ministry of Celebrate Recovery is growing other places, but I think it's healthy in our church, and I'm so glad for that. Me too, me too.
41:25 - 41:55
Alyssa Matz: Yep. I want to... Browncroft is good, from your perspective. It sounds like Browncroft is good. I'm sure it's not perfect and I'm sure there's people that come here that have been hurt, especially in the area of mental health. So I want to leave room for those people too, but I'm also sure that there's people listening right now who don't go to Browncroft, I'm sure a lot of people who are listening are like, oh yeah, it must be nice that your church has those things. What would you say to people, not just those people who are saying
41:55 - 42:06
Alyssa Matz: must be nice, but just people who have struggled with mental illness or their mental health and they've had a negative interaction with a church, or they've been hurt. What'd
42:06 - 42:51
Robyn Englert: you say? And I think that happens in every church. Yeah. Unintentionally, and unfortunately, sometimes intentionally. So if I was talking to somebody who had been hurt by a church, they have the church hurt, I would start out by just say, I'm sorry. And not kind of expecting that they would continue, but trying to provide space. If you wanna share more, I'd love to kind of hear and journey with you. But I think it starts out with just like validate, like that does hurt. That experience, intentional or not, that does hurt. So I think that's where I
42:51 - 43:22
Robyn Englert: would start, just to kind of say that. And 1 of the, I'm going to give some book recommendations later, but 1 of the authors that I really respect is Henry Cloud. And he was talking, he shares about when he was doing a group with individuals. And there was 1 person who came in and they'd been together for a few weeks and just started you know kind of bawling and looking up and kind of confess some things that they hadn't shared before and wouldn't look up. And he was like, when you're able to look up, because I
43:22 - 43:54
Robyn Englert: want you to see everybody's outsource response. And everybody in the group had compassion for this individual, whether they had tears or not. They weren't judging. They weren't shaming them. And my hope would be if I'm talking to someone that has had the church hurt, can I be like those group members and someone who's showing actually Christ's love, not judgment, not condemnation, but meeting them where they are and say, yeah, that does hurt? And, and if depending on kind of the role or kind of our time together, like if this is going to be something we journey
43:54 - 43:57
Robyn Englert: on together, like we want to create a safe space for
43:57 - 43:59
Alyssa Matz: that. But
44:00 - 44:13
Amanda D'Angelo: immediately reminds me of the verse, rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. That compassion not only helps people to open up and authentically share, but it helps to see the heart of God
44:13 - 44:14
Kathy Elliott: too. Absolutely.
44:16 - 44:19
Amanda D'Angelo: That's a great point, Robyn. I love that you said that.
44:19 - 44:30
Kathy Elliott: I have talked to people who've come out of a service, and people struggling with mental illness, and they say, every Sunday, I come out feeling guilty.
44:30 - 44:31
Robyn Englert: Oh, mm-hmm.
44:31 - 45:11
Kathy Elliott: Now, it might not be because of bad presentation, but just that's what I think we need to be aware of, that there are some people, a lot of hurt people that have a screen up of hurt and it's really hard to take in, God loves you. Yeah, right. It's just they're not able until they're able to experience that with somebody or several somebodies who are not judging. And I would not blame the pastor necessarily, although there are, I've heard sermons where I would definitely blame a pastor and say, how dare you preach like that? You know?
45:11 - 45:48
Kathy Elliott: Sure. And I said, who am I to judge a pastor's sermon? But I know what it does to people. I listen to the people with the hurts, with the wounds. And I don't use the word sin with people. They come up with that word, but let's talk about the wounds that then cause the behavior that needs to be confessed. But let's do the work first. So I wouldn't say all of that, and maybe to everyone who says I've been wounded, but I would want to really hear, what was the wounding? What was it? How were you
45:48 - 46:27
Kathy Elliott: wounded? How did you process that? When else has it felt like that, oh, there's a history here? But validating and saying, I want to hear more about your story so that we can unwrap that a little bit, and help you maybe begin to open up and hear about the love, or receive the love. But a process, not in that 1 conversation. You gotta go from here to opening up. No, I wanna hear, and I want you to be where you are. That being present with someone takes some time. And it takes some awareness of even how
46:27 - 46:32
Kathy Elliott: to do it, a little bit of training, but it makes a huge difference.
46:33 - 46:34
Amanda D'Angelo: Absolutely. Wow.
46:35 - 47:11
Robyn Englert: Well, and I think too, a big component of, you know, kind of where church sometimes starts is when individuals are younger, you know, just kind of growing up or, you know, just kind of if it's very rigid, if it's, you know, if they're exploring variety of different areas and they're not given space, if they don't have anybody that believes in them at home or at church. So I think especially kind of with why God why, kind of the target audience of, you know, kind of the more the Gen Z, like, there's probably individuals listening in that
47:11 - 47:47
Robyn Englert: demographic that say, yeah, like, maybe my church wasn't abusive, but it minimized me or I didn't feel like I had a place. And that's church hurt too. To feel invisible, to feel like this is a place I'm supposed to have acceptance or be loved and I was still an outsider. And so I think even kind of with the young adults, I love working with young adults, and even exploring that with them. We talk about faith can be part of your identity, but when you feel shunned or left out, that hurts. Or if you're a little quirky
47:47 - 48:03
Robyn Englert: and people don't understand and you feel judged like, you know, why would I wanna hang out there? So I think even the church hurt, it's absolutely abuse, which is not okay, but it can even manifest itself in ways that maybe are minor. Or subtle.
48:03 - 48:04
Amanda D'Angelo: Subtle, but
48:04 - 48:36
Robyn Englert: thank you. Yes, I was using air quotes for those who are listening. Because I think it's not minor to the individual. And I think often, I'm continuing to just do more work on trauma. And they're like, you know, we often think of trauma as like a big incident, but sometimes it's, you know, kind of death by a thousand paper cuts. Like it's just that person and this person in small ways that you're just feeling dismissed. And so I think that's also part of church hurt. So it's really seeing a person. You're not just a number, you're
48:36 - 48:41
Robyn Englert: not just in that family, you are an individual. Wow.
48:41 - 48:58
Alyssa Matz: Yeah, that's so good. And that's like, that's like our question that we're answering today. Does the church dismiss, like you were saying, dismiss or put aside or cast out? Mental health is our question, but still even individuals feel that way, feel dismissed by the church. Yeah.
49:00 - 49:25
Amanda D'Angelo: Well, let's see what we can do to help anyone that's listening with whether it be a church leader or someone who has been hurt, better integrating mental health with our spiritual journeys. How can we grow in that? So do you 2 have any like book recommendations or things to help or?
49:25 - 49:38
Alyssa Matz: Yeah, and that might look different depending on like who you're addressing. Correct. The person who's been hurt or the people in ministry trying to prevent more people from getting hurt. So, address both sides of the coin. Okay.
49:39 - 50:13
Robyn Englert: I would say you've already mentioned Celebrate Recovery and that's something, yes, we have it at Browncroft, but it's a national program. And so, if anybody is kind of interested in wanting that extra support, it's very well run. You can go to celebraterecovery.com and see the different locations. And 1 of the things I like is they have a curriculum. And if you're going to use the name Celebrate Recovery, they ask you to keep it consistent so individuals know what they're going to expect when they come in. So that would be a resource to kind of, if you
50:13 - 50:46
Robyn Englert: need help, to kind of go there. I love reading and podcasts, so I have a list, but I'll narrow it down. I already mentioned Henry Cloud, but honestly, 1 of the... He and John Townsend are 2 of the Christian psychologists that I refer to often. They wrote boundaries in the 90s and there's different books that have come off of that. But that is so important. Boundaries not to keep people out, but to know what is you and what is other people so you know where you can let them in, what you have to say no to.
50:47 - 51:21
Robyn Englert: So there's boundaries. And then personally, I was really impacted by Henry Cloud's book, How People Grow. And there's a workbook that goes with that. But that helped me heal some of my hurts that I didn't even know that I was carrying. And then some of the grief kind of going through that. So that was really helpful. Alison Cook and Kimberly Miller, they wrote a book called Boundaries for the Soul. It's a little bit different than Boundaries, but it talks about kind of healing the different parts of us that have been hurt and carrying and honoring those
51:21 - 51:32
Robyn Englert: experiences, but not being stuck. So that was a really good 1. And I'll give you 1 more. Jason Cusick, who has been on the podcast a couple of times, but he wrote the book, The Anxiety Field Guide.
51:32 - 51:34
Alyssa Matz: And I interviewed him.
51:34 - 52:08
Robyn Englert: Oh, yes, yes, I listened to that 1. But it was, it's very practical, but it also, he's a pastor of a church in California, and it normalizes his experience with anxiety and OCD, and it gives 30 practical steps. I think it's 30, but practical skills and steps that you can use to help manage your anxiety. So I think those are 4 of my go-tos. Honestly, it could be someone who is struggling or for those that are in ministry to try to understand more, how can I come alongside? But also, what can it look like for somebody
52:08 - 52:15
Robyn Englert: who might be struggling with anxiety or kind of hurts from the past? So I'll stop there.
52:15 - 52:16
Amanda D'Angelo: That's great.
52:17 - 53:06
Kathy Elliott: Yeah, you mentioned... You didn't mention this 1, but Life's Healing Choices is a CR book, and healing, what was the very first Cloud book? Changes that heal. Yeah, another cloud book. I love the cloud books, and you mentioned a couple of those. Practical, non-judgmental, very integrated. How people grow is just an integrated psychology and scripture in such a way that I loved that book I read that book 20 years ago and I said someday I'm gonna talk about this in a group I created a group and we studied that book so so anything by Henry Cloud
53:07 - 53:41
Robyn Englert: 1 more I do have to jump back in. Because I think grief is also something that is so prevalent just in our world. And David Kessler has incredible resources for grief. He's got books and his most recent 1 is The Sixth Stage of Grief, but it's Finding Meaning. But he also will do podcasts and webinars and has a lot of literature that's kind of accessible online. And that he is a great, a solid resource for grief. So in addition to grief share.
53:41 - 53:42
Kathy Elliott: Yes, of course.
53:42 - 53:44
Robyn Englert: Wonderful. That's so
53:44 - 54:01
Alyssa Matz: good. I'm just like soaking this in. I know. As a person who's in mental health and interested in mental health, I'm just gleaning all of your wisdom today. So thank you guys for sharing with us. Is there anything that you wanted to share that we didn't get to?
54:01 - 54:06
Amanda D'Angelo: What final remarks do you have or hope even for people?
54:08 - 54:47
Kathy Elliott: I think just my final comment, I think when I became familiar with Celebrate Recovery many years ago actually long before we had it here and learned how it worked I thought this is how the church should feel. Where we can go into a group, we can be honest, and say, I'm still going with this, I'm a mess in this, and not feel judged. That's the ideal for the church. Not everybody in the church has been through recovery or wants to, but there's something about that model that I just wish existed even more in the church. In
54:47 - 55:25
Kathy Elliott: Celebrate Recovery, they always introduce themselves by, I'm Kathy, I'm a grateful believer in Jesus Christ, and I struggle with pride or food or self-esteem or whatever it is. My identity is in Jesus Christ, and I struggle with this. I love that, and for that to be, not the motto of the church, but the pattern of the church, first and foremost, you're a believer, a follower of Jesus. And then, let's look at this behavior, that maybe not is consistent with that beautiful
55:28 - 55:37
Robyn Englert: It's it's ironic because when we were kind of doing our pre-conversation, I had said, you know, kind of the team, I was like, oh, this is really negative. We've got to make sure we have hope. And I
55:37 - 55:38
Alyssa Matz: was like, I think I
55:38 - 56:14
Robyn Englert: kind of skewed the other way. But I think I do have hope for the church with mental health. I think there is a lot of room for growth. I think that we have a lot of people that are continuing to be hurt and working through hurts that I, you know, am passionate about, you know, kind of working with people on. But I do think when we can bring our faith and mental health together. Like, as I said before, God is the ultimate counselor. He's a great physician. And he can miraculously heal us. I absolutely believe that.
56:14 - 56:50
Robyn Englert: But he can also use people and resources to kind of honor our healing journey. And I think he does that and through the church, through mental health counseling. And so I have hope when we can bring those 2 together that there is that deeper healing. And I think when I talk with individuals that don't have a faith and that are struggling with depression, what I experience most is just that absence of hope. And so that's why I'm like, I just want to keep working on blending kind of faith and mental health because it is our hope
56:50 - 57:00
Robyn Englert: in a world that's dark where we don't always understand stuff and bad stuff does happen and we need to be able to have that hope that light to kind of guide us through.
57:00 - 57:04
Alyssa Matz: So true. Do you have any final remarks, Amanda?
57:04 - 57:28
Amanda D'Angelo: Oh, I just, everything you all just said in the last however many minutes we've been talking to, I just, I'm very grateful for you both because I think you did bring hope and you brought truth to really difficult situations that have been and still occur. And I just, yeah, I'm glad we're having conversations like this and I think they need to happen more often.
57:28 - 58:01
Alyssa Matz: Agreed. Yeah. I think that would be my closing remark, is just addressing people who maybe have been hurt by the church due to their mental illness or mental health struggles that they've gone to, and just wanting to say, I'm sorry that you went through that, or that you're going through that. But on the flip side of that, conversations like this aren't only happening here, they're happening in other churches and other places around the world. And I do have hope that things will get better, not dismissing things that have happened in the past.
58:02 - 58:02
Amanda D'Angelo: But
58:02 - 58:37
Alyssa Matz: I do think we're headed in a better direction of integrating our spirituality and mental health, like mental well-being, thriving in mental health. So I'm excited to see where that goes because mental illness is not going away anytime soon. And so we're going to have to learn to adjust and to help people and to meet people where they're at in those struggles. And I think that we're getting there. There's a long way to go, but conversations are happening not just in churches but in many spaces about mental health. And so I think the more the more we
58:37 - 58:56
Alyssa Matz: talk about it the more educated we get we can really learn to help those people who have struggled. So yeah I think we can wrap it up here. Robyn, would you want to just pray? Or even either 1? Would you want to pray to close us
58:56 - 59:33
Kathy Elliott: out? Sure. You want to? Sure. Heavenly Father, what a privilege to call you Father and to know that you love us even in our messiness, even when we've made mistakes and have not always represented you as well as we could and should. But we thank you for your grace. We thank you that you have given us an opportunity to learn more about how you created us, how we created our mind and our soul and our spirit and body to all to work together. And We would pray that you would continue to guide us with your spirit
59:33 - 59:54
Kathy Elliott: to use that knowledge and that The awareness of your love for us to minister hope and healing to other people Thank you for your grace. Thank you for Jesus and salvation and for this time to talk about this very timely topic. And we pray in Jesus' name, Amen.
59:55 - 01:00:00
Alyssa Matz: Amen. Thank you. And thank you for listening to the Why God Wants to Be a Man.