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🎧 Real deals, real strategies, real results. Learn how to find, fund, and operate profitable property plays from someone who’s actually done it.
Hosted by Andrew Wright, principal of Professionals Southport and a commercial investor who rebuilt after losing a ~$15M portfolio during the GFC, this podcast gives you a straight-talking look at what it really takes to build wealth through property.
Each episode delivers practical frameworks, real deal breakdowns, and honest conversations with high-performing investors and operators across residential and commercial.
But it’s bigger than the episodes. The goal is to build a community of like-minded investors who share stories, swap insights, help each other grow and maybe even do deals together.
🔗 Join the community & learn more - leave your email at: www.andrewwrightproperty.com.au
📍 Connect with Andrew: hello@andrewwrightproperty.com.au
If you don't have a good foundation, then whatever you build on that-
Yeah ...
is always gonna be shaky. Well, I really wanna understand how structures actually go together, and the best trade to do that in is carpentry.
In Japan, all the buildings have to be built on foundations in a way that they can survive earthquakes.
Absolutely. But in Australia, it's, uh, we don't have the rigors here. Mm-hmm. So can you actually tell us why foundation engineering is, is so important?
Sure. Um-
Best business advice you could give to anyone else.
I was always a curious kid. Understanding something in a complete sense. When I do that, and I knew that if I moved into my own business doing that, I could sell that like crazy.
What triggered you to sell your engineering and piling contracting business?
Hi, I'm Andrew Wright, principal of Professional Southport, and this is the Andrew Wright Property Podcast. I've built a multi-million dollar property portfolio, delivering a seven-figure annual rental income, and led my real estate team through thousands of sale and lease transactions. In each episode, I share real deals and strategies that will help you find, fund, and operate profitable property deals.
The aim of this show is to provide education and build a community of like-minded investors who can collaborate, share insights, and help each other in each other's journeys. You can make excuses or you can make money, but you can't do both. So come and join us
G'day, and welcome back to the Andrew Wright Property Podcast. Today, I'm delighted to start a two-part discussion with a friend of mine called Dave Kelly Many people know Dave as a successful property developer, author, and educator. But long before he began developing his own projects, he spent decades building an extraordinary career in construction, engineering, and project management.
Dave's journey began as a structural engineer, then a carpenter, licensed builder. He went on to build a foundation engineering and piling contracting business that completed the foundations, engineering, implementation, and contracting on more than 1,000 projects across Australia. Collectively, these projects represented more than 5 billion, with a B, dollars worth of construction.
While Dave wasn't personally the project manager of all of those developments, his company's work formed the foundations that supported everything that was built on top of them. As every engineer knows, if the foundations aren't right, nothing else matters. Throughout his career, Dave has also managed projects for himself and his clients across Australia, New Zealand, the USA, Singapore, Malaysia, and China.
For more than a decade, he worked directly with six Toyota dealerships, helping owners redevelop their facilities while continuing to operate successful businesses. Dave is amazingly the author of three books, founder of Property Development Mastery, founder of an instant screw piling business, which he successfully sold in 2006, host of The Mansion Project podcast.
Did I pronounce that correctly? Correct. An Ironman triathlete, which is the number one most respectable thing on this whole resume, because those guys are freaks. Public speaker, skydiver, world traveler, and proud father of three daughters. Dave, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you, Andrew.
I'm a bit thrilled to go through this because, um, I've got a couple of mates that are engineers, and the thing I love about their company is they, the words that come out of their mouth are always thought through.
Mm-hmm. They don't waffle.
Mm.
They're super intelligent people, and, um-
Mm ...
I think at school, um, in my days, we had a thing called a T-score. 990 was the highest- Mm ... and I think you had to be about 960 to be an engineer or something. You had to be pretty smart.
Mm. Mm.
So, uh, let's get started. So, um- Sure ... how did you, how did you get into the, the construction business as an engineer?
Do you wanna talk us a little bit about your background?
Yeah, sure. Hey, it's great to be here. Thank you. And, uh, I enjoy chatting with you because you've got so much good energy and, um- And you're moving forwards, uh, sharing excellent information for the industry.
Thank you.
I was always a curious kid.
Mm-hmm.
Um, my mum would say that, um, I would fix things around the house and my dad didn't have that same set of skills, I guess. And so As a young kid even, she would ask me to fix things around the house, um, 'cause she knows I'd, I'd stick at it and, uh, work out how to, how, you know, you actually got it done.
So I guess I just had that aptitude, uh, as a, as a child. And then I think as I probably got older, I was around about 10, and my neighbor who lived across the road was a house builder, and he used to say, "Come over here, David." And he'd say to my mom, like I w- I was probably causing trouble around home 'cause I was bored or whatever, as a young kid, you know, before you get on your bike and- Is this the Gold
Coast?
No, no. This is down in Corowa in New South Wales.
Okay.
Small country town. Yeah. So grew up there, um, and the next-door neighbor said, "Oh, David's driving me crazy, you know, just send him over to my workshop." So went over to his workshop, Chick, uh, Chick O'Donoghue, and he got me doing, you know, "Cut this for me, David.
Do this for me. We nail this up." And then, then he took me and I had a look at a couple of houses he was building, and to me it was just like, wow, this is such a functional, but it's also such a creative industry of, of building things. So I, uh, always knew that that would be part of my, uh, purpose and my destiny, I suppose.
Right.
As I got, as I went through school, you know, you get to that crunch point way back then, uh, in year 10 where you either go ahead and finish your HS and do HSC, in New South Wales it's called HSC, or you get out of it and go and do a trade. And my parents were very much of the opinion I should go to university and do something, and I knew it'd be in that kind of engineering field.
It was always mechanical engineering, 'cause I thought mechanical engineering was things like cars and m- engines and things like this. So, you know, and that it does include that, but when you talk about mechanical engineers in, uh, development projects and residential projects, it's generally to do with heating and air conditioning and ventilation, et cetera.
So that's the mechanical aspects, lifts, that sort of stuff. And I kind of thought, eh, you know, that's a bit boring for me, and as it turns out, my uncle and my first cousin were both civil engineers. And so, uh, during one of my high school, I think, year 11, uh, breaks, I went and was able to go and have a look at their workplaces and I thought, oh, this, this is it.
This is where I can get in and get involved and do design work or supervision or whatever, but on big projects like dams and high-rise buildings and all this sort of stuff. So in those days, um, civil engineering, which is what my degree was, uh, was split, was, it was mutually shared between civil engineering, which is roads, bridges, pipes, that sort of stuff, which to me was like bor- boring.
And, and the other part was structural, which was building stuff like, you know, carpentry- Yeah ... and then high-rise buildings and bridge, you know, serious bridges and all sorts of structures. And so I, I gravitated towards that, and I knew that I would always be involved in structures and what have you. So when my, well, I matriculated from high school, signed up, uh, and went to Melbourne, uh, three hours n- south of Corowa, and studied civil engineering at Swinburne University.
So that was my start.
Okay. And- And you, you, you, h- did you have a, like a career first there before you b- decided to go back into carpentry and learn how to become a carpenter? How did that transition happen?
Yeah, so, so when I... I think I've never met anyone, um, who is a carpenter builder and a civil structural engineer.
Um, you meet, and I've got a mate here, Peter Burke, good fella, who's a builder- Mm ... and a, a- and a civil engineer. We went to university at the same time. And I've met other engineers who have become builders or builders who have become engineers, but not with a carpentry background. So the thing for me, I went back after finishing my, uh, four and a half years as a, a civil engineer student and be- and graduated, I, after six months of that, I thought, "I really wanna understand how structures actually go together," and the best trade to do that in is carpentry.
Wow.
So I went back and I did a- Yeah ... apprenticeship. And at that stage I, I was recently ma- you know, newly married. Um, this is probably a couple of years after, um, matric- you know, finishing my, you know, university. And I, because of my, uh, civil engineering and the study I'd done there, they compressed my four-year carpentry apprenticeship into six months.
So I kind of finished the... I just loaded up all my, you know, um, degree and all the other things I'd done, and they gave me credit for a bunch of things, and then I got through that apprenticeship in, um, in six months. But what I did do in that period of time... And then I worked as a carpenter and then I, a- and immediately I was always th- looking forwards.
That's a good thing. Sometimes it can distract you, 'cause you're never actually present to the moment that's happening right now. But I always had the next plan, and the next plan was to be a builder, and then the next plan from that was to become a developer. So that was kind of set right back when I was a young, you know, 25-year-old, uh, when I was doing this carpentry apprenticeship.
And as I said, it was compressed down. So when I got out of that, I, that was my, my clear ticket to becoming a builder and, and I then went ahead and, uh, got a building license.
It's interesting when you, when I think back of finishing uni, one of the first things at that age in particular, regardless of your education level- Mm
is you're thinking, "How much money can I make in my first job?"
Mm.
Is it, I don't know the building industry- Mm ... but wouldn't a carpenter make less than an engineer as a starting salary, as an apprentice?
Oh, for sure. Yeah. It was, it was pittance. But I've gotta be honest that I never... I, I think, uh, differently about that now, but, uh, in those days I never really thought too much about what I would get out of it, uh, money.
It was just, uh, pursuing an interest- Mm ... and a creativity and also a curiosity, to be honest. And, um, and I knew it would ultimately give me a better, uh, set of skills as a structural engineer if I understood how structures go together, and that's definitely been the case throughout my career.
You, did you have a, a mentor in the early days when you were young as to guiding you along your transition in the construction industry?
Not,
not really. I think I was too- Strong-headed maybe or too, um, independent. Um, but I did, when I was working as a carpenter, I was inspired by a young guy, he was probably half a dozen years older than me. He was probably maybe 10 years older than me. But he had progressed incredibly in his carpentry and where he was doing...
And this is in Melbourne. But he would buy places, renovate them. I helped him renovate a couple of places, and he was clear. He had a very clear vision of where he was headed, and became very successful in building, and, um, because he was the... He was the, he'd be the guy on site that the clients would be dealing with, and then he'd be there coordinating all the other trades, and really was taking control of the overall project.
Um, you know, the thing I've noticed with, uh, you know, different trades have a, a cutoff point where they, that's their scope, and they're really not interested how they, what had to happen up till their scope started. Like for example, you know, an e- an electrician, for example. He's not interested. It's not his job to understand how the foundations were poured, how the frames got there.
At that point, he's, he's doing a pre-wire, for example, and he's rough-in, and he's got to use the frame that's there. If the frame's wrong, well, it's not really his problem, it's not really his concern. And then at some point, he finishes that rough-in and he leaves, and, uh, he comes back when he's fitting off.
So I just wanted to be a master of the whole process from start to finish, and that's w- obviously where a builder is concerned, but I wanted to do it as a developer, and I felt that to really jump in as deep as I could and understand the whole building process would, would serve me best as a developer.
And what prompted you to set up your own business, and what gave you the courage to do that? Obviously, you're, you're on an apprentice as a carpenter, and you're slowly working your way up and, but how many years evolved there until you developed the courage to set up your own engineering business?
Um, I think the, the driving factor there was that I just didn't, I wasn't a very good employee.
Like, to be told what to do and how to think, and how to have outcomes, uh, I got myself in trouble a few times when I've had to do a, a job. Like for example, when I moved to America many years later, um, I had to get a job- Mm ... uh, for my visa, and I thought, "Oh, this is not gonna be fun for me, and it's probably not gonna be fun for the employer."
Anyway, I found an employer who was willing to take me on, which was, got me my, um, E-2 visa. But I would sit in meetings, and I had way more experience than this guy did, and I'd say, "Hey, yes, you could do it that way, but what about we try this?" And that just created a whole bunch of conflict because here's this subordinate employee giving suggestions, which I thought were valid and real and would have ultimately led to a better course for his company, and we were having barneys all the time.
So I kinda thought, "This employee gig just doesn't suit me 'cause I've... You know, I wanna contribute."
Mm.
It was always about wanting to contribute and add, add value, and sometimes that's not appreciated in different contexts. So I think I've been em- self-employed for most of my career. I've had a couple of short stints, uh, where I worked for others.
But it's, it's often been in a consulting role. There was... When I first came to the Gold Coast and, uh, took a job as a... I was a design engineer for a steel framing, uh, metal f- building, uh, manufacturer, and then I went back to work for a consultant engineer and got my... I was a r- registered professional engineer in Queensland, my RPEQ, and I worked for a consultant, and that was a good experience.
And, and I was doing that as a consultant, so it still gave me some, um, freedom, I suppose, to, uh, do a few things differently than you would if you were a hardcore employee.
But y- you initially, your first business of your own, excuse my ignorance 'cause I h- I have no skill set around building, but-
Mm
foundation engineering and piling contracting. Mm. That was your first business.
Yep.
Wh- why did you see an opportunity there? Did you have existing clients that you knew that y- would become customers to give you a, get the ball rolling quickly, or how did that actually- Yep ... get started?
So that, that continues on beautifully from what I, the intro just then about when I came to the Gold Coast.
As I said, I came to the Gold Coast, worked for a metal building manufacturer. Um, was doing his software design stuff for these, uh, buildings which were, um, kind of interesting and smart and things. That was all good. Then when that ended in tears, it was an employee job, I went and worked as a con- uh, consulting to Philip Bell, who's, who was an eminent engineer here on the Gold Coast.
Structural engineer mostly, and he got into other environmental stuff later on. And while doing that, he, Philip was doing the designs for a company called Instant Foundations, which was a Brisbane company, and they were one of the first companies or the first company doing steel screw pile foundations.
So I, I was then the consultant for them directly, and I saw lots of jobs. I'd be designing all these jobs for their contractors all over Australia. And so I got to know the engineering capabilities of that technology, and I thought, "You know, I could give this a crack myself," 'cause I... Again, it satisfied that need to, uh, to understand the process thoroughly.
And it's, it's probably something in my makeup, Andrew, where if I understand a process, uh, and having... You know, I would say it's integrity. It's like- Understanding something in a complete sense. When I do that, and I knew that if I moved into my own business doing that, I could sell that like crazy, because I knew that I was standing behind- Because you believed in it.
Yeah ... I believed in it. I understood- Yeah ... what I was doing. Every other competitor in that industry-
Mm ...
were, one day they were a, uh, an excavator operator, next day they were a piling contractor. Okay. And the two are very, very different, and a lot of those guys came to grief because they didn't have that comprehensive understanding.
And, you know, we did 1,000 projects in Australia, and then I did several projects around the world, and we never had one problem at all, and my competitors were having legal cases everywhere because they just, uh, as a contractor, they were stuffing things up because they didn't have that understanding.
Okay. Now, I'd like to go back to pretend our audience is like me and know nothing about engineering.
Mm.
I'm fascinated about foundation engineering in itself because I was married to a Japanese lady for 20 years, and-
Mm ... it's,
it's always, even though I've had no knowledge, I've always had an interest how in Japan all the buildings have to be built on foundations in a way that they can survive earthquakes.
For sure. But in Australia, it's, uh, we don't have the rigors here. Mm-hmm. So can you actually tell us why foundation engineering is, is so important?
If you don't have a good foundation, I don't want to quote the Bible necessarily- Yeah ... but if you don't have a good foundation, then whatever you build on that-
Yeah
is always gonna be shaky.
Yeah.
So the thing I loved and took very seriously in the foundation engineering business I did was that, um, you know, the f- the process through a, through design and construction is that there's a ground assessment done. There's a, there's a soil investigation done to determine whether the, the existing conditions of that site are, uh, and the ground conditions are strong enough to take the load of the building that's gonna be constructed on it.
Yep.
Okay? So very different if you were building one dwelling house, uh, the loads are relatively small. If you're gonna build a high rise, those loads are incredibly, uh, you know, in excess of that. So can you approach that same site with the same degree of, um, you know, design intent? And the answer is you can't.
You've got to, it's got to be appropriate for the loads that are gonna be imposed on that site. So I always took very seriously that when we were quoting, and we did probably, I did 1,000 jobs, but we probably did about 5,000 quotes, I guess, or 3 to 5,000 quotes, somewhere in that region. And each one, each one of those quotes was looking at the soil report, understanding, and you become very good at understanding regions here in our local area of the Gold Coast and Brisbane.
And then when I did projects further afield, it all relied on the quality of that soil report. And often what happens is a builder or a contractor might not see the value of getting a proper good soil report done. So they might just go out with a small, um, truck-mounted, uh, 50 mil drilling rig. Mm. And they go and they drill two meters deep, and they say, "Yeah, that's good enough."
They give the report, and at two l- meters, I, I'm reading the, the bore logs, and I'm thinking, "Well, that's just, there's nothing to found on here. I can't put a building on here because he's only drilled two meters. We need to drill 14 meters."
Mm.
And that's the difference. Often what happens when, um- Uh, uh, a building is under-scoped- Mm
you know, you need to get commensurate, uh, uh, due diligence work done in the form of geotech engineering. So, um, but when that was done, I knew that I could go to, go to town and I could confidently, uh, quote a job that was gonna give a proper solution for that building to stay up for, um, you know, its design life of 60, 70 years.
Okay. So as a foundation engineer-
Yep ...
you, you managed, uh, there was a, a thousand projects that you've been involved with. Uh, is that a mixture of residential and commercial, or is it all residential? What, what- Yeah. No- Have you got any examples of different types of buildings that you had to- Yeah, sure
lay foundations on?
Yeah, sure. Um, we did anything from... And even if you start at, at the very tiny end, might be, for example, uh, fence foundations. Now people might think... And on the Gold Coast here we have a lot of sand, and sand generally, the way sand, uh, when... As water goes through sands from rain, it trickles down and becomes more dense as it gets lower because the grains mobilize and then they just, over time, with, and with, say, some pressure on them from a, you know, a house foundation, it gets more and more compressed.
And so at some point you can have good, deep, uh, dense sands to actually found your building on. But those sands might be two or three meters, um, below ground, so you have to somehow get down to that. You can't afford to build a, a deep, um, edge footing on a, on a build- on a house, for example, down at, um, two meters deep, 'cause it's just not economical.
But you can come in and whack down a whole bunch of screw piles, and that takes the load from the foundation down to that deeper level where it's sitting. So, um, that's at, at the simple, kind of easy introductory end of the screw piling technology, is just extending the, the surface level, uh, structure down to the deeper founding level.
But when it comes to other buildings like, you know, we were doing projects, um, four and five story reinforced concrete buildings, and they impose a decent load on the structure. We would, um... It's the same principles. You've gotta have competent geotech so you know where the building's gotta found. And normally those reports would come out with some recommendations, you know, deep foundations founded at this level.
Mm. And so, and, and, and then a- the cross-comparison there is you look at some other testing they do on site. They do, um, dynamic cone penetrometer testing, uh, standard penetrometer testings, which are then their field, uh, assessments that are done to determine the strength of the soil at different layers as you go through it.
So, um, it, it, it's a highly specialized trade, and when you think about expensive buildings being built on sites which, uh, are maybe not the greatest foundation, uh, strength, then you've got to do it right or else there's always gonna be problems come back and, you know, you're talking about litigation, you're talking about, um, professional indemnity policies that sit behind a, a registered engineer, and you just don't wanna have to mess with those things.
So I was always- Mm ... very cautious and, uh, but also not wanting to put more steel in the ground than needed to be put in because otherwise- Mm ... I lose my competitiveness. I found that over time, um, all these new entrants came into the market- Mm ... and they didn't know, either understand or, and they often just didn't really care because they just whacked, you know, steel in the ground.
And I, I... The builder, you know, many times I'd have the post-tender discussion with the builder. Mm. I'd say, "How'd we go?" He said, "I know. We've gi- given it to someone else. They were cheap, way cheaper than you." "Ah, really? That's interesting. So how many piles?" "Oh, there's 100 piles on the job, right?" "Oh, yeah, he came in.
He, he's putting two metal piles in." "Oh, really?" Mm. "That's interesting, 'cause the soil report here in text says piles need to be founded at four meters." "Oh, God. Okay. Well, it doesn't matter because his engineer's gonna certify it Now that is like the never-never, and you're reliant upon... You're flying in the face of what actually makes sense when you read the investigation data.
Yeah.
And someone's willing to risk that, and normally because they don't actually understand what they're doing. You know, the contractors didn't, and they're, they're using some sort of dodgy engineering to get by. So consequently, as I said earlier, um, I would, I would often have this situation, uh, arise and I thought, well, we've got to found this at this, uh, depth because that's on- only at that point is the building not gonna settle.
You put things at the higher level, over time, the weight of that building is just gonna make that... There's, there's just a, there's a whole, you know, document. There's a huge, uh- Yeah ... documented examples of these buildings failing.
At a very, very basic level, Dave, I'm, I'm starting to find something that I can relate to now because my house is built on sand.
Right.
And recently, oh, about eight years ago or 10 years ago, I, um, built a massive deck out the back of my house. Right. And I remember the builder digging these holes to put these, uh, the concrete supports on the bottom- Yeah ... from which the steel poles come up to hold this big deck out. Mm-hmm. And I remember him, uh, getting an engineering guy out there- Mm
because we had to have it certified that it was all safe- Mm ... down the track. And the guy said, "Oh, no, you've got to dig these, like another 50 or 60 centimeters deeper- Mm-hmm. Mm ... for these supports to, to make sure that you, you get to that dense level of sand down there- Yeah ... to, so that the The thing doesn't fall down and sink
Yeah, correct.
Yeah
And, uh, the builder wasn't, uh, of that, uh- No ... skill set to know what that was. Correct. And the engineer or the certifier-
Mm ...
maybe a certifier with engineering background come- Mm ... and said, "No, you gotta dig that a whole heap deeper." And the-
Mm.
The builder was angry 'cause he had to- Yeah ... do more work.
Yeah. But I'm so glad there was an engineer there to, uh, give him the right guidance, because my deck is still flat.
Yeah. Good. Yeah. Well, that's- Yeah ... that's, that's the principle at, at work- Yeah ... really. Yeah.
Mm.
And what, what's interesting is when you have an existing building and there's an extension done to it, then that new...
The building, as I said earlier, particularly on sand, that building's gonna settle to some level. Mm. It might, over its design life, it might settle 50 mil, 70 mil.
Yeah.
And you might not even pick that up, pr- u- unless of course it bursts, um, sewer pipes and, and water pipes, et cetera.
Mm.
You might not even know.
But when you come in next, next to it and put a new building, a new extension to it, well, what's to say that that... A- and say you, you marry up and level up the floor levels.
Mm.
What's to say the new building's not gonna settle that same 70 mil? It's probably gonna settle. So typically what would happen in that case, in a good insurance policy, you screw pile that new part of the building so it's not gonna move at that point, and that was always a very good...
It's a good principle following through-
Yeah, right ...
of how this, uh, it's a ben- you know, it's a beneficial technology. And, and just to finalize, so vertical piles going in like this, but I found that... I- I did some cracking projects, um, on the M1 in Brisbane. We did a fantastic project where we installed the piles, and 12-meter long piles, horizontally to hold a massive, like a retaining wall that was about 12 meters high.
We'd screw these piles in, and they worked as anchors or ground anchors. I did that. Um, the project I did in China, which was working on the largest joint venture ever in China at the time, which was a $5.4 billion US dollar- petrochemical plant and we did, um, vertical, uh, pullout piles. So normally the weight of a building, it's all compressive load.
It's loads that's downward under gravity. But in this instance, the load was actually up, and this big basin was wanting to pop out of the ground. So we had to tie these- Wow ... we did, we did 1,000 piles on the job. Biggest job I've ever done. It was the first job in China ever been done with these things. And, uh, that was to tie this part down so it didn't pop out of the ground.
Wow. Let's talk about, uh, another part of your life, which seemed to be a fairly significant, uh, consulting role, and that's with, uh, the Toyota car company.
Mm-hmm.
You helped six different offices completely redesign- Mm ... or redevelop their, uh, home base, if you like. Yeah. Tell us about that. I, I'm, I'm, I'm very interested as to, uh-
Yeah
how you added value to those Toyota franchise.
Yeah. So the- Yeah ... the work with Toyota, I was their consultant for 10 years as, uh, development manager, as a consultant. Mm. Of course, I wouldn't be an employee. But, uh, that started because a local dealership here on the Gold Coast in Robina, um, Tony Stark, running, um, Hinterland Toyota, they were putting a new facility in Robina, in that auto mall section.
And I ha- I was in business then with, uh, two friends, and we took that on as the project manager. And through that, and I, I was the guy running that project And through that process, there's a lot of interaction with Toyota. Toyota was developing new standards at the time, and so their guy from Sydney, Peter Carrington, would come down to the Gold Coast, and I just...
It's just my style, and what I like to do is to build relationships. And we built a very good relationship over that project. He was impressed that we built it on time and on budget, and we, we also, uh, I think it was probably one of the first of their new specification buildings. And I was able to achieve that and get the building looking as they wanted to f- going forwards as Toyota as the corporation, and were able to do it in an effective manner.
It was a pleasant experience for everyone. The, you know, the client was happy, um, Toyota was happy, and, uh, it was a great job for me. And they said, "Oh, David, you know, would you help us on some other projects?" "Yeah, sure." So over the next 10 years, I, um, did, as I said, about six of those, and I also consulted to Toyota on...
And so they would ask me to go and fix problems in... I went to Darwin, went to Tassie, went to all these different places- Mm ... where their, they had, had various, um, issues with the, the dealership, and me work with the owners. The thing I loved about the Toyota gig was that all the dealers that I dealt with, they were all very down-to-earth guys.
Many of them came from a mechanical background, so they grew, you know, as a apprentice mechanic, mechanic, and they worked their way up, sales guy, sales, um, you know, head of the sales division, and then they had the chance to buy the dealership. Um, so that was one style of, um, manager. And then the other style is where...
And you know this, and any- anyone in Australia would see this. Often when you come in, y- you're getting clo- you're driving into the city center of our major cities here, you'll see all this, this ring of, um, car dealerships, that when they were established, they were probably on the very outer fringe, 'cause it was where land was cheap.
But as the city develops, it's actually, they're in close, you know.
Yeah,
yeah. True. They're in Melbourne, east, uh, you know, Port Melbourne area, for example. In, um, Brisbane, it's all those southern states around Moorooka- Yeah ... or southern suburbs, very close into the city. Yeah. And it's on very expensive land.
So these dealerships get... And so become very wealthy, and the dealerships inevitably get handed down from, through the generations. Mm. So they might be third-generation dealerships. And I always found that those guys were, they approached business very differently. They, they, they're, they were in the business of selling cars, and they had to build a facility that would actually serve that purpose, and they w- they're keen, uh, you know, they're interested, interested in getting a, an efficient building built for the right money, but they, that wasn't their principal concern.
They weren't tr- were not selling it, so they're not making profit out of it.
Mm-hmm.
They wanted the right building that would serve their business going forwards. And I found that it was a pretty low-stress customer or client I'd be dealing with, and they just appreciated my expertise I brought to the table in terms of design and keeping, uh, the whole budget intact throughout the development and the design period.
So as a consultant, uh, I'd imagine every franchise owner may have had a different block of dirt that- Yep ... you were building, you had constraints on.
Mm.
I'd imagine maybe different, uh, locations and councils had different rules for-
Mm ...
what site coverage you're allowed to build on. Mm-hmm. And, uh, infrastructure charges for hardstand might be different in different councils.
Mm-hmm. Did you, do you notice a lot of the difference in the, the red tape in the different councils in that regard, like infrastructure charges, site coverage areas?
Yeah, like each one, yeah, they're, they're all, uh, you know... Unfortunately maybe, we seem to just regionalize this country and we duplicate services, we drup- duplicate, uh, planning codes.
Mm.
And, uh, different councils have different perspectives. You know, one, one building being built in one, under one city, your adjacent city could have a exactly the same building that's been presented, and you're hit with all this other compliance requirements, headworks charges, application costs, all these sorts of things.
I think it's, a lot of it's counterintuitive and, um, not very progressive. Um, but that's the way we work with this. You know, we've got federal government, state government, and then local governments. Mm. Those local governments often have, uh, their own, um, their agenda, and they can... It's crazy. I've talking to a, a good mate of mine just the other day and he said, "Oh, we got our approval.
We got, we're getting draft conditions this week for a, a subdivision on the Gold Coast," and they applied for that about eight months ago, and the application fee was 120 grand here on the coast. If they'd put that same application in in Brisbane It would've been a $75,000 application. It's like, well, how can that be when they're assessed on the state planning code?
Mm. And it's just because the local government can apply their own, uh, s- schedule of rates and it's wrong. It's totally wrong. It's all counterproductive to development and, and bringing, um, you know, sustainable housing into the market but that's the way we are in Australia.
That's exactly right and I, I'm into truck depots and I've found one council now that's charging me $0 per square meter for hardstand as long as I'm not connecting to the town services.
Right.
Another one is $10 a square meter. Mm. One is 12 and then there's another one is $60 a square meter.
Wow.
Uh, building rooming houses, um- Mm ... the Gold Coast was actually quite, uh, good giving me credits on infrastructure charges converting an office.
Mm.
But when I went to Ipswich and had a pre-lodgment meeting, they wanted to absolutely sting me like crazy-
Mm.
Mm ... uh, for infrastructure charges so it's fascinating that there's 500 and something different councils in this country- Yeah ... and every single one of them has different rules. Dave, I
think- Well, I, I, I'll pick up on a point there 'cause it's relevant. Um, so I've, I'm part of a develop- a particular developers group and we've been doing, uh, rooming houses and one of the fel- members of that group is having a go at a, um, he's got an approval now for a rooming house on the Gold Coast and the council...
So these rooms are approximately somewhere between 26 and 35 square meters so they're small. They're, they're like a mini apartment.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but they're small and they're only for one occupant. You can only have one occupant in them.
Yeah.
But the council wants to apply the same headworks charges as a three-bedroom unit or a three-bedroom house on that and times by, in this case it's, um, four nines of 36.
It's a million dollars worth of infrastructure charges. Uh, now in reality, a three-bedroom house could have- So that's like doing, um, 36 three-bedroom houses. A three-bedroom house could have five people in it. Yeah. So 36 times five is 150. So you could have 150 people here contributing to the water and the waste, and over here you've got a rooming house that's got 36 occupants in it, and they're, they're charging the same- Same
infrastructure fees, and it's just wrong.
The same that happened to me with Ipswich. I canned a rooming accommodation project there because it was an 11 bedroom, 11 bathroom facility. Mm. And they wanted to charge me 11 lots of infrastructure charges because they said that the tenants were unrelated. Mm.
They weren't having meals together. W- I don't know why that's of any relevance- Mm ... but I just canned the project for that exact same reason.
Mm-hmm.
Dave, I forgot to ask you a question before. Mm. What, what triggered you to sell your engineering and piling contracting business- Mm ... in 2006?
So that business in the early days was a great business, and I would get...
I was welcomed as a provider of solutions. Um, I ran that business for 10 years. So in the early days, I c- I came in, I could sell that, my solutions with conviction because I, I knew from, I, I knew my engineering was right, and I had a product to sell, and I was right behind it. And I, uh, you know, was able to make pretty good money in those days.
What happened over time was all these entrants came in that were competing, and as I gave the illustration before about the two meter pile versus the four meter pile.
Mm.
Um, I've got no interest in putting twice as much steel in the ground as the next guy. I did it because that was the correct solution.
And so over time, you just get beaten down. I, I was getting beaten down by lower pricing. I then went to China, and the very first job I did... Now, so I went to China, was really appreciated for my expertise, did this project, largest joint venture project ever in China, and the client was thrilled. It was the, you know, top tier project managers fr- in, from the US and, and from, uh, England, and they thought it was a great solution.
Got lots of accolades and all that. Um, it's just good to feel appreciated when you're putting a level of expertise in- Mm ... that is unique. And I came back here and I remember having a conversation like... So I literally ca- finished that project, came back to Australia, and I'm having a conversation with a builder.
Now my business was an engine and it would, we were able to st- keep quoting and contracting projects. It didn't stop just 'cause I was away. But I remember having the discussion with a builder, and he was... It was over like $2,000 and it was the same thing about I'm putting the correct solution in here and you're choosing a cheaper price.
And I just thought, "Oh, I'm done with that, going through that meat mincer."
Mm.
And, uh, I found that, um, I was better off, uh, doing, focusing on development and a, and a bigger game. So that's why I sold that business and- Okay.
I don't wanna put words in your mouth, Dave, but from a, a, someone who doesn't understand all of this engineering stuff, it- you've sort of implied there that maybe certifiers, uh, could possibly sign off on foundations that are not ideal.
Like, are you, is that what you're implying? Like, I don't want you to badmouth the industry either. Yeah, sure. But if someone offers, uh, digging a hole that's not quite deep enough- Yep ... are you suggesting that sometimes certifiers will sign off on stuff they shouldn't be?
Well, it, it'd be engineers in that case.
But, um, so just think about it. Mm. The engineer issues his certificate based on an installa- so the, the contractor's supposed to keep a record of his installation.
Mm.
So when he's done that, he gives that to his certifying engineer, and the engineer checks through it and says, "Yep, you've, you've complied with everything I said.
You've got the right this, that, and the other." He ticks it off.
Mm.
There's still no building been built at the time- Mm ... he issues that certificate. Mm. So the real test of whether those foundations are gonna do the long-term pro- job-
Is three years later.
Yeah, that's right. Yeah. It's some time later. So yes, um, dodgy jobs were getting done.
Gotcha. And over the period of time, a l- many of these guys ended up in all sorts of barneys, legal cases, 'cause you've got a building that's now broken its back or it's settled and it's caused all sorts of problems for the homeowner or for the commercial building. And I just, I didn't, never wanted to go down that path.
As I said, 1,000 jobs, we never had one problem whatsoever in all that time, and I was happy about that 'cause I didn't wanna get into that sort of, that game.
We're going to, um, have a, a separate podcast shortly on your property development journey.
Mm.
And what I'd like to finish off with today is leadership, mindset, and life.
Oh, beautiful.
Um, I have a passion for exercise, fitness, but, um, you deserve tremendous respect because you're an Ironman. Like, that just blows me away.
Mm.
Tell us about how you got into being an Ironman-
Mm ...
and the multiple disciplines. Talk, talk, talk the people who don't know what an Ironman is. Right. Can you tell us about it?
Yeah, sure. Uh, the Ironman, I think the thing that attracted to me was that it had multi-disciplines in it.
Mm.
Swimming, cycling, and then running. I'd always been a runner, and I found that I was a good cyclist. Um, and for my, for my height and my weight, I could ride mount- hills pretty well.
Mm.
And, uh, swimming was my weak leg.
Um, but I figured that if I, if I got coached and if I practiced enough, then I could, um, get that swimming leg under control-
Mm ...
for a triathlon. So I was really keen to do a triathlon, probably because it's taking on a lot, and it was a way of maybe focusing on things-
Mm-hmm ...
um, and, and being curious about all these things.
I always... In fact, the, the... My triathlon club was the b- um, Burleigh Triathlon Squad, BTS. And so it was centered here in Burleigh Heads, run by Mark Aldous, and there was a... He, he just brought a lot of really cool guys together, guys and girls. And the thing I really loved about that group was, I mean, triathlon can be, um, as much as it's varied because of the, the three disciplines, um, it can be a lot of training, and if you're doing that by yourself- Can
be?
It is.
Yeah. It can... Yeah, that's right. Inevitably, it's a lot of training. And the thing I, I just wanted to not just be on this solo trip. I wanted to do it in collaboration with others, so runs, for example, together. Yeah. Much more fun doing it when you're, uh, running with others. And cycling, certainly.
Cycling is even more so because, you know, we would head out on the Saturday ride, and you might... You'd be gone for maybe six hours. You might be riding for four of that, and some groups should stop halfway, have a bit of a refill, recharge, food, et cetera, and then continue on. But when you're riding hills, particularly, at the moment, there's the Tour de France on at the moment.
I've stayed up a couple of nights watching it. And they're always talking, the cyclists are always talking about suffering. And there's something- Triathlon definitely attracts this certain type of person. They're normally goal-driven, they're, uh, focused, and they don't mind hurting themself physically- Mm
for the goal. You know, and that's, uh, cyclists are big on talking about this suffering. And, um, and there is something weird, it's probably some chromosomal problem we have, um, because when you're all there and you're riding a mountain, and it's hard work, and you're suffering in that same context, there's something beautiful, 'cause it's...
You know, we're doing it and the majority of people aren't. So somehow you're self choosing your subset, uh, and- You're building
character ...
a- and you're building character. Yeah. You're getting it done. There's a great satisfaction when you come back- Mm ... and you realize you've done 2,500 meters of elevation after a, you know, few hours riding.
Yeah. That's two and a half kilometers vertically over, you know, over the course of this, you know, five- Yeah ... hour ride. There's something satisfying. You've achieved something, and it's a little bit like carpentry to me. A- and any, any of these jobs that you, where you're actually doing something with your hand, you, at the end of your period, your day, your ride, your, your project, you stand back and you look and say, "God, we actually did something real there."
Yeah. And you get up and it's bricks and mortar. You can touch it. Or in the case of triathlon, you know, we rode from A to B and we went over this mountain, and it's satisfying. So-
Good on you ... I
think those aspects, um-
I have such respect ... are some of the good- My son's just done his first triathlon and I, I'm encouraging him to take it further, and he's, he's super keen.
Sure.
Is your best leg the run? Is that your best leg, the-
Um, I probably... Well, I'm not competing now because, um, I've just, uh, I've, I've got to focus now on motorcycling, which I'm absolutely loving. Uh, and I still keep fit, uh- Mm ... but I'm not doing the long runs anymore. But I was naturally a runner and ran, you know, playing football and just running marathons, et cetera, at the Gold Coast Marathon last weekend.
So I did that several times. And, um, but I found that I was a strong cyclist and I could lead the... Normally in cycling, you know, you'll have, if you're at the head, head of the cycling group, then your energy output's about 30% more than if you're back and you're getting protected- Sucked along ... from the wind.
Yeah.
Yeah, and you're getting sucked along. So I found that I was quite happy to sit at the front, kind of suffer, kind of show some leadership, and kind of test myself as well. And- But you're still
taking turns with a couple of other people,
yeah. Yeah, you're taking turns- Yeah ... but you know, inevitably in any of those groups, someone, some- you know, some will always sit at the back- Yeah
and out of the wind. And others will wanna just do as best they can and, and lead the group. So that was a bit intuitive to me that, um, that's where I preferred to be.
Okay.
Just alwa- but always having a go and doing my best.
And, uh, you also like jumping out of perfectly good airplanes. Tell us about that.
Yeah, well, I've, I've skydived several times and, um- Uh, two of those times were with my daughters. Um, my-
Why? ...
oldest two daughters for a start, in New Zealand, we, um, skydived and that was a great experience. 'Cause again, that's something, you're on the edge, you're, you're doing something that's not normal, it's not really- Yeah, I'll
say
not really, uh, everyone wants to sign up for that, but we were keen. And it, it's a, it's a beautiful bonding experience. I look back on those photos and I think- Mm ... "Wow, we did that." And, you know, m- many people you talk to about skydiving, they just can't, they're not, it's not for them at all.
Mm.
And so you kind of are then, you, you're again sort of showing just by being true to yourself that there's something beautiful in what we do, we did and achieved, and we, it was stressful, but then we got the reward of actually doing it, and then- So
the fact that you did, uh, did it with a few other family members makes it all more memorable, 'cause that's a bond you've always got.
Yeah, that's
right. So doing it by yourself wouldn't be quite the same, would it?
No, I don't think so. No. Yeah. No. I would always look to that. And then I did, I dived with my youngest daughter, uh, daughter Bonnie, when she was 18, and we dive teamed at the Gold Coast. And I mean, it's, on, on the right day, coming down over the Gold Coast is absolutely spectacular- Mm
because you see all the built form, and then you see the ocean that's just blue as can be. And, and coming down from 14,000 feet-
Mm ...
over that, it's just a fantastic... Landing on the sand, I mean, it's just amazing opportunity and, you know, we, we shared that moment and it was tremendous.
Yeah, fantastic. And you've, you've done a lot of travel.
Um, you're an author. What, what motivated you to write three books?
Yeah, my books were on, um... I wrote my first book, uh, I was involved in the 2011 Brisbane floods when, you know, there was 32,000 houses affected by flooding in Brisbane, and I was working as an insurance builder then, and we did 75 projects.
And in that period of time, you see, you see the w- probably you see a lot of people under stress, and you see some pretty bad behavior amongst people, and you see a lot of goodness as well comes out through voluntary efforts and things like this. And then in a, in a flooding situation, you know, you get mold growing, you get all sorts of unhealthy things occur in a house, and I wanted to contribute the things I learned, so I wrote a book about that, that, um, helped some people, from what I've heard, uh, as they went through that situation.
I then wrote a book on property development because, to me, I, I developed a course called Feasibility Mastery, and really that was the way of assessing a pro- um, a property, a proposed or a, um, you know, supposed property development and how you actually assessed whether that was gonna be a profitable, worthwhile venture before you started.
So I wrote a course on that. It was very logical to me, and then I wrote my book based on the feasibility process and called, um, Develop. So that's a book just putting together my philosophy around, um, property development and how you go through that process. Okay. And the third book? So, and that, that's, that's been a good tool.
The third book, uh, I'm not sure of the third book now. I can't re-
Oh, okay. I
did write a third book, but I, um- Yeah. Doesn't come to mind. And
you've got a podcast?
I, I started a podcast a few years ago called Man Shit, which is spelt M, man, so it's S-C-H-I-T.
Yeah.
And it was The Man Shit Project, and that was to provide a platform for men-
Mm
to be able to deal with the shit that they, we go through as guys.
Yeah.
Um, sometimes- Good idea ... we go through that, uh, and, and we need to, as guys, we need to share and support each other in what can be, uh, sometimes a lonely experience being a man and being a provider- Mm ... and a father, et cetera. And, um, I found myself having learned many things that I want to share with others.
As far as mindset goes, um, once again, I'm not putting words in your mouth, but I suspect being an endurance athlete-
Yeah ...
certainly makes, uh, perseverance a lot, uh, easier- Mm ... in business when you think through what you've ac- actually had to do as an athlete. Is that a fair- Mm ... comment? Do you think that's- Yeah
actually helped you?
I think so. I think so. Uh, I've got a natural-
pretty, uh, uh, um, elastic, um, consciousness, I think, about things- Mm ... and I don't mind waiting till the end to get rewarded. That's definitely what happens in triathlon-
Yep ...
and marathon running and long rides and these sorts of things. And it definitely what, what happens in development because, you know, your development has to be, you have to know that it's gonna make money.
Uh, so because these, these projects take several years. The one I'm on doing now is, you know, it's a three-year project. So if you haven't got the stickability and the perseverance to just hang in there, then you won't get rewarded. Uh, it's not like doing it one of the trades. The trades get paid in, you know, whatever, 14 days, 30 days, they do their work and then they're out and then they get paid.
And the developer gets paid at the end if everyone's been paid. Mm. If it all goes well, then the developer is able to. But arguably, if you're doing a project that's, um, profitable, then you're probably gonna take away the biggest slice of money of anyone involved. And, and so it should be as well, 'cause you've taken the risk, you've had the vision, and then you've executed on all those thou- literally thousands of different transactions and designs and, you know, subcontractors and materials, et cetera.
And you get to the end and you stand back and are pleased you can see something you've created. Mm. And if it makes g- the money you anticipated, then that's, that's fair. In my, in my understanding, that's, that's fair and it's appropriate.
Agreed. A few closing questions before we go on to part two- Yeah ... and your inspiring property developments that you've actually done.
Let's, um, just run through these. A favorite country you've visited?
I think I, I lived in Turkey during the pandemic for nine months and had an absolute ball in Turkey, uh, it was while COVID craziness was going on Lots
of history there too, right, in Turkey?
Is- The hist- Oh, the amazing history of, um- Yeah
you know, it's, uh, it's right in the center of the, of Asia and Europe and, um, so much history and, and knowledge. But I found the people in Turkey, the Turkish people themselves, were beautiful people and, uh, really welcoming. And I was with a, lived in a town where we, there was about 70 expats from all over the world, only one Aussie, and I just had great, great connections and, uh, a really wonderful time.
Fantastic.
Mm.
Your favorite book? Business book. Your favorite business book.
You know, the principle thinking behind Rich Dad Poor Dad I think always sticks with me.
Best business advice you could give to anyone else and specifically if they wanted to become a property developer.
Yeah. Um, friend of mine who runs a big development company here, uh, Christy, said to me, he said, "Dave, you've got to realize that you're doing a..."
Uh, and my, my project I'm currently doing, I started off with a unit design. The unit design was an impact assessable, uh, application to council on a small site. So that meant that all the costs involved in that application were only shared over half a dozen units. So every, uh, it's expensive. You could, for all the costs we paid, the time in design, et cetera, I could've built a 20 story b- if I was allowed to, I could've built a 20 story building on that site- Mm-hmm
and amortize the cost over it all. He said, "You got to realize you're doing the hardest thing on a small site where the return for all that, um, that effort- Mm-hmm ... is relatively capped because you only got, you know, four or six to sell." And I, I, I really think there's wisdom in that. You gotta pick your battles.
When you pick the... One battle is an impact assessable DA, and you gotta realize, "Okay, am I ready for this? Am I willing to take this on because it's gonna cost a lot out of me and, and require a lot of me and require a lot of capital also?" And, um, I think it's really worth considering that or whether you go the route of a code assessable DA that somehow does- So code assessable
if it's a small project.
If you're doing impact assessable, you wanna make sure there's enough reward-
Correct ... for
the longer time frames- For all that extra- ... the extra costs.
I gave that example of council gave me an absolute hiding on my, uh, that unit design. Yeah. I didn't proceed with that, but they gave me- Yeah ... an absolute hiding.
And if I'd, if I'd done a impact, a, a, a code assessable, they would've, I would've sidestepped a lot of that. I've got a friend here who builds high-rise buildings, and he's built many of them, and he says, "Dave, we only ever do a code assessable application."
Yeah.
So arguably, he's not getting the absolute most out of the site, but he also avoids the uncertainty that comes through dealing with council.
Fantastic. Okay, viewers, well, we're gonna come back shortly and we're gonna go through a very, very impressive resume of private property developments that Dave's actually done from hi- for himself. And what I'm most impressed about is there's such a diverse, uh, range of projects. So we're talking about land subdivisions, luxury houses, townhouses, uh, even overseas developments.
So a lot of developers like to stick to a niche, and I think this is maybe where Dave's mentorship course, uh, could be very, very beneficial because he hasn't just done one type of development. So we look forward to going through that in the next episode, and thanks for listening. Thanks, Dave. Thanks, Andrew.
Thanks for listening to the Andrew Right Property Podcast. This is all about building a community of like-minded investors who can share real-life stories, experiences, and collaborate with a view to helping each other. Join us. Get in touch through the link in the show notes. I look forward to you joining me on the next episode