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Keeping Skor: Creativity, Curiosity, and the Things We Keep. A podcast about why people collect the things they love. Each episode begins with a collection - but the conversation quickly expands into something deeper: memory, imagination, and the choices we make about what matters. Through thoughtful conversations with collectors of all kinds, Keeping Skor explores the stories, passions, and meaning behind the objects people choose to keep.
Alright. Before we jump into today's conversation, I wanna set the stage just a little bit. On this episode of Keeping Skor, we are talking about essential oils, but maybe not in the way you would expect. My guest is Katie V of River Island Apothecary. And Katie has spent years working with scent, blending essential oils, and helping people understand how smell connects us to memory, creativity, and even identity.
Stephen:The first half of this conversation becomes a kind of surprising introduction to the entire world of essential oils. So if you've ever walked past a shelf of those little amber bottles in a health food store or maybe in a Whole Foods Market and thought, you know, this looks kind of interesting, but I have no idea where to start, then this part of the conversation will feel like a nice guided tour for you. Katie explains how oils are made or extracted, maybe how you start to smell these things, learn about them, and you, you know, hear her story about what's starting out, as curiosity turns into a collection and a creative practice. So part one, think of this as your introduction to the world of essential oils, and then in part two, we'll go much deeper. If you want to find out more about Katie, you can go to riverislandapothecary.com.
Stephen:Alright. Enjoy the conversation. So what's up? How are you?
Katie:Oh my gosh. I'm having the best first Monday of the year ever.
Stephen:Really?
Katie:It's the first Monday of the year.
Stephen:But it's true.
Katie:Yeah. And this is
Stephen:the best one ever.
Katie:Ever. Like, I'm hitting the ground running. Like, I got so much done. I made this really good soup. Like, my firewood's all stacked.
Katie:It's good. I feel really ready.
Stephen:What kind of soup?
Katie:Dude. Okay. So it's like a sort of a soup where you take, like, equal parts grated fresh ginger and garlic as the base, and then you add a ton of turmeric, coconut milk, whatever vegetables you have around, green onions, rice noodles, and, like, some curry paste and some sriracha. It's, like, so nice. It feels like wellness, and it makes your nose run.
Katie:And it's just it's like the perfect soup. So I had I had a lot of that.
Stephen:Oh, you ate some already?
Katie:Oh, yeah. Because it's just right after lunchtime.
Stephen:Dang. Alright.
Katie:Yeah. I know. I made it well, I made it yesterday, so I would have it for the first Monday of the year. Yeah. You know?
Katie:So I just feel, like, on top of things.
Stephen:You planned ahead.
Katie:I did, and I tend to. Mhmm.
Stephen:Yeah. Well, I'm not quite sure about this. I do know what you're saying about the nose running. That is a good thing unless it runs into your soup. And then
Katie:Oh, nobody wants that. Yeah. That's that's yeah. No. That didn't happen.
Stephen:Yeah. Well, you know that go ahead.
Katie:Like a faucet. No. Just a good, you know, like, healthy, like, yes. I'm good. Everything's running and moving kinda thing.
Stephen:Yeah. That's awesome. Well, congrats. I can't I can't say that my I mean, my Monday's been fine. I don't think it's been as epic as epic as yours, but that's probably because I didn't make soup yesterday, which seems seems reasonable that you would have a head start.
Katie:I mean, I recommend making soup on Sundays as a rule. You're never ever gonna be disappointed that you made soup on Sunday. Like, because every other day after Sunday, you're gonna be like, I am so fucking smart for making soup on Sunday.
Stephen:There's the title of your your podcast or one of your podcasts.
Katie:I'm so fucking smart.
Stephen:No. Making soup with Katie V on Sunday. Sunday
Katie:soup making with Katie V.
Stephen:Okay. So alright. Listen. Let's here's here's what I'm excited about.
Katie:Alright. Tell me.
Stephen:Well, I'm excited because, you know, people are listening to this. And for people who don't know, a typical conversation with you starts out with something very basic, simple. Mhmm. Really simple, such as I'm gonna call Katie because I wanna know what she got for Christmas present. And then after a five hour conversation, I have no idea what you got for Christmas.
Stephen:And I know I know other things. Many other subjects have been sort of, you know, touched upon, mostly left unresolved. So I'm excited because there's actually a focus to this one.
Katie:I mean, so you think, but I I like I like the I like the hopefulness in your tone. Mhmm.
Stephen:Yeah.
Katie:Yeah.
Stephen:Okay. Well, you know, that's a little just a you know, be be forewarned listeners. This might go if this was a train from New York to Philadelphia, you would not wanna take it if getting to Philadelphia was your real goal. This would be like
Katie:That's right.
Stephen:You might end up in Saskatchewan. Yeah. But you might end up in Buenos Aires. I mean, you might Yeah. Anywhere.
Stephen:You know? So, anyway okay. So here's the thing. It's funny you talk about soup because I had started to actually make a little introduction for you. And, of course, it started out completely ridiculous.
Stephen:And it said things like, well, Katie V's awesome. You should know her. You know, just real generic things that seem to make sense to me. Then the fact that you live like it's, like, 1886, I thought that was interesting. There was maybe a thought of talking about you and Ma Ingalls and how there's a lot of similarities.
Stephen:So the fact that you started out with you making soup on
Katie:a Sunday
Stephen:was perfect for that.
Katie:Oh my god.
Stephen:And then your love of mustard and, you know, kind of dry goods in jars, you know, things like that. Right? But that's probably not as professional as this, you know, situation would dictate. So what I did was because I know how much you love the Internet and things like AI. I asked AI to go to your website.
Katie:Oh my god.
Stephen:Yes. And yeah. So tell me tell me about KDV. So do you wanna hear it?
Katie:Mhmm. Mean, kind of not, but okay.
Stephen:No. It's no. It's actually really good. It's Let's do it. Okay.
Stephen:So it says and it it gets funny because it gives it, like, a real professional introduction. Today on Keeping Skor, we're talking with KDV. So I will not talk in that voice anymore, but that was the way it started. But then it goes on, and it says, Katie b, the founder of River Island Apothecary and the Darkwood School, a woodland studio in Asheville where scent, symbolism, and seasonal wisdom are woven into tools for self discovery.
Katie:Hoo hoo.
Stephen:Yeah. Right? Mhmm. Continues. Katie's journey began decades ago as a massage therapist and a student of literature where she first encountered essential oils and realized that scent could be a way into the body's own language of memory and myth.
Katie:Mhmm.
Stephen:In 2010, she developed her now beloved archetype anointing oils, blends designed to resonate with inner facets like the warrior, the queen, the priestess, and the wisdom keeper. And she's been guiding women through the cycles of life, creativity, and seasonality ever since. Mhmm. Okay. Now I'm gonna add this one because I did go to your website, of course.
Stephen:And, I like this quote because I think this is probably more meaningful. Laura says working with Katie is like accepting an invitation to come home to oneself. From the moment you enter Katie's sacred space, you are touching the divine within while growing in your wisdom. Katie is brilliant, warm, grounded, courageous, a true master. So what do you think?
Stephen:What do you think of, ChatGPT's analysis of how it sees you?
Katie:Oh my gosh. Well, I think GPT is just a plagiarist because I recognize all of that phrasing that I wrote for the most part, and so it's just summarizing my own words back to me. So I think it's I think chat GPT is a really good oh, this will tie in because of my work with essential oils. It's it's really good at distillation. That's my official opinion.
Katie:ChatGPD can distill, like, nobody's business, but it can't come up with anything original. Well, it didn't in this case.
Stephen:Right. Well, that's it.
Katie:I think it's a really good distiller. So if you wanna get to, like, the essence or the bare bones or, like, you know, wade through a bunch of fluff and unnecessary extraneous descriptions, maybe use chat GPT. Is that its full name? Or if you know it really well, could you just call it chat?
Stephen:Or g?
Katie:Or g.
Stephen:Yeah. I think. I I call it I call it g.
Katie:Or t bird.
Stephen:You know, I think that's a pretty good analysis. Yeah. You know, the whole distillate no. True. I I have a very love hate relationship with this thing right now.
Stephen:I do try not to use it, but it is actually pretty it's pretty good. You know, it's pretty good for certain things. And, actually, quite frankly, if you are, like, a a first time collector, right, someone who's sort of interested in something, yeah, just sort of typing in, like, hey. How do you get started in dot dot dot? It's actually pretty good.
Katie:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Stephen:You know? So okay. So so so first, let's just say this. For those who have made it through the first five or ten minutes of this conversation, I think, ultimately, we will get to essential oils.
Katie:Mhmm.
Stephen:And so if that's of interest to somebody, they could kinda stick around. But I suspect that this is definitely gonna be a much more broad conversation about just the idea of collecting. Mhmm. With that as a potential point of departure, you have said to me, you don't think of yourself as a collector. I kinda disagree with that, and I certainly think you have, like, a curator's eye.
Stephen:So Yeah. If you don't think of yourself as a collector, I am curious. Like, what what does the word collector mean to you?
Katie:Yeah. I I mean, well, I wanna back up just ever so slightly and say that I have I have had so much fun thinking about this idea of whether or not I'm a collector, and I've enlisted a friend of mine to think about it with me, and she's she's like, but what about this? I'm like, yeah. I don't really collect that, though. And so so, like, just the idea of, like, getting to have this conversation with you coming up has kind of allowed me to tease it out a little bit more in my own head.
Katie:And I I think a collector well, gosh. I mean, at the risk of saying something really obvious, there's this there's this, like, intentionality to it. Like, you know, I collect salt and pepper shakers, and there's this, like, intentionality and then this, like, association that that person is kind of building between them and the thing that they collect. You know? When you see salt and pepper shakers, you're gonna think of this person, and, you know, you're gonna get them for them because you're like, they're gonna love it.
Katie:They love salt and pepper shakers. So I feel like there's this kind of, I don't know, this this shortcut or something into someone's personality with what they collect and the fact that they collect. And and, like, collection becomes collection becomes part of their personality, like, the fact that they collect and what they collect. And I think, like, just because you and I have talked about this a little bit and, again, me talking with my friend, I think there are times in my life where I was avidly and actively collecting something really specific, and I think it had everything to do with a personality that I was feeling, but also, like, trying to live toward and solidify. And it was, like, this external, like, exoskeleton or something way of being like, this is who I am.
Katie:You know? I have this stuff. I'm interested in this stuff. And then as one's personality changes over time, you get uninterested in that stuff and interested in different stuff. And so I I don't know.
Katie:I think I'm in this place right now in terms of collecting of like, I'm just mid evolution or something where I just I let go of I'm on the other side of collecting. Collecting. Anyway, we'll get to that. But I'm not sure that I answered the question, but I think you've established pretty well that that's not really in my wheelhouse answering questions exactly.
Stephen:Okay. So yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, that brings up something interesting as you're talking. So do you think because it's true.
Stephen:I think what you said is very, very true. Except there are people, I think, who would argue that the thing they collect is not them trying something on, but it really is, like, a core part of them. Right? It kinda
Katie:touches
Stephen:touches something really, really deeply. So would you say that it's fair it's a fair statement that maybe there's kinda almost, like, two categories of collectors, neither one being better or worse than the other. But, you know, the first one is almost like that kinda high school mentality where, you know, for six months in sophomore year, I was a rocker. You know? And everything I wore was, like, you know, band T shirts, I grew my hair long.
Stephen:And then, like, yeah, that kinda wore off, and then I've I got really into tennis and, you know, like, all of a sudden, like yeah. Okay. And then so those sort of things come and go. But then there's sometimes, some of that evolves into something that really is kind of really deep, and it's almost, like, extracting that out of somebody's life would be, like, taking a part of their soul.
Katie:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like a it becomes kind of like a talisman a talisman or, yeah, just a little glimpse into who they really are, something that's something that they're willing to put out there for people to see. Like, this is important to me, and this is maybe even important about me, and I'm letting you see it.
Katie:You know? It's kind of generous in that way to see if the someone's collection, if it really does represent, like, really who they are. You know?
Stephen:Yeah. No. It is. I mean, when if somebody yeah. I think that's lost.
Stephen:Right? When you know, sometimes people think, oh, you know, so and so's boring me with showing me their stuff. But, no, I think you're right. I think it's, most of the time, it's actually this sort of really generous, like, opening up of, yeah. You know, I kinda trust you enough to show you something that's really, you know, really special, really meaningful for me.
Stephen:And then then that's why when somebody's into it and I don't mean, like, they love it the way you do, but they're like you know, they ask you questions, and they're excited. Like, you feel so good. And when someone's kind of dismissive, like, salt and pepper shakers, that's stupid. You know? Like, you know, you you go, oh, man.
Stephen:Alright. You know, let's let's just leave. You know what I mean? Like, you get so, yeah, you get so frustrated.
Katie:Well, it's like the point got missed. It's like, okay. Yes. Maybe these salt and pepper shakers aren't, by nature, super interesting to you. But what's interesting is the person who collected them, all the scenarios in which they found themselves getting these salt and pepper shakers, all the years that they devoted to it, you know, that's the fascinating thing.
Katie:You know? It's like, why do you collect this? I got all day to listen to that. You know? That's the coolest thing ever.
Katie:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Reveals something about the self.
Katie:You know? And so so we could argue then that, like, if you don't have a collection, like, is yourself too, like, mercurial or something? Does a does a collection indicate a grounded sense of self? Wow. Maybe.
Katie:Maybe not.
Stephen:That's actually okay. Well okay. So, basically, what we're talking about right now is actually the point of this podcast. I mean, not just this singular episode, but really kind of all of them. Because I because I think I think what you're saying is exactly true.
Stephen:Right? I mean, yeah. Okay. Look at my salt and pepper shakers. Isn't that great?
Stephen:I have a thousand of them. Look. There's Mickey and Minnie and, you know, whatever. Look. These ones are mushrooms.
Stephen:And, yeah, okay. There's something sort of superficially fun about that. But, yeah, when someone really starts to talk about why you know, why? You know? What what what what does what does spice mean to them?
Stephen:You know what I mean?
Katie:Yeah.
Stephen:Yeah. I mean so yeah. So the this is actually the point. Right? It's like, how do you how do you get to know somebody at a deeper level, you know, in your gateway is is their collection.
Stephen:Yeah. So, you know, going back to this this oils. Right? I mean, the thing okay. So well, this is why I think you're a collector.
Stephen:Right? And maybe and maybe there's a there's a question in here about if a you if a collection involves utility, is it not a collection? And so I'm I am thinking about your oils. Right? You know, this is something you're incredibly passionate about.
Stephen:Mhmm. It's a you know, it's really mean, couldn't be more intimately tied into what you do and what you think about and how you express yourself. So maybe just give us a little bit of background into your relationship with oil, how it started, and maybe how it's, you know, evolved over time. And just give us, you know, kind of a better sense of you and that relationship, and how, you know, someone else might see themselves in that at some point.
Katie:Mhmm. Yeah. So I've always had a really strong interest in plants. My mom and dad are in the plant world, and, I've just always really been fascinated with gardens and the woods and everything plants, but I I'm not a gardener. I don't wanna work in a greenhouse.
Katie:I'm not a biologist. And so I've always kind of had, like, a curiosity about, like, what is the way I work with plants? And so in the late nineties, I went to massage school out in New Mexico. And like any program, you know, there's, like, electives. You know, mainly, you're there to learn massage, but one afternoon, you'll learn a little about this and a little about that.
Katie:And one day was essential oil day. And just everything in my being perked up, totally understood it, you know, loved it, got it on every level, felt very wide open to smelling every essential oil ever, you know, just was filled with with curiosity and and and a passion for it, really. And so
Stephen:And this and just not to interrupt. This was immediate. This was, like, almost Yeah. Like Okay. Did you did you did you think it was strange?
Stephen:I mean, was there something about that you were like, oh, this is different than what I have felt in the past?
Katie:Oh, that's a good question. No. I didn't question at all. I just was very I was into it. It's like falling in love or something where you're like, I'm not gonna wonder about this.
Katie:I'm just gonna be into this. You know? Like, this is so this is such a good feeling. And I, in the class, we were passing around not little bottles like most people would think of it with essential oils, but we were passing around these, like, metal flasks that you would store, like, you know, maybe eight ounces of essential oils in it. And I was, like, kicked back.
Katie:I was, like, on the floor or something leaning back, and someone passed me one of these flasks. And I almost opened the whole thing and smelled it like that, but something in me was like, you need to sit up for this. And I opened the flask, and it was filled all the way to the tippy top of the rim. And if I had opened it while I was kicked back like that, I would have just dumped it all over me. Mhmm.
Katie:And I took it as, like, you know, just in you know, just general, like, common sense about opening containers with liquids in it. But I also was like, no. That felt, like, spiritual on a really deep level. Like, pay attention. You your whole life is making sense.
Katie:You you are being aligned with a path that's gonna be with you for the rest of your life right now. Like, that's how I took that. It was like, sit up and pay attention. It was almost like I heard it. And, you know, that's true.
Katie:So so, you know, in my so I was there to learn massage. And so I had this great, you know, situation to weave essential oils in right away, which was, you know, massage oils and foot baths and diffusers and everything that you would think of that would be nice in a massage setting. And so my first I mean, the first way that I started collecting oils was just, like, huffing them. Like, I would go into our little massage school, like, gift shop, like, supply store, kind of student supply store, and I would just smell every oil that they had out, you know, just meeting them each and, like, what's this one gonna be like? You know, just fascinated.
Katie:And so I I first started just collecting in my brain, which is how scent works. The brain really likes scent and likes to store it. And, you know, so it just kind of was creating like, building a palette, really, in my head, like, the way that you would build a the way a sommelier would build, you know, a palette for wine in their brain. I was doing that with essential oils. And so I first started just collecting in this very, like, poetic ethereal way, and then slowly, I could afford oils.
Katie:And, you know, I went to, massage school out in New Mexico. And so we would get I had, like, this Chevy s 10 at the time with, like, a camper top on the back, and we all each had like, all my little massage school buddies, we each had, like, two or three bottles of essential oils. It was all we could afford. And we would drive out in the desert in the night and, like, pass around our little bottles of oils and smell them and just, like, no other air in the back. Just truss, you know, the top and just get so totally looped on essential oils.
Katie:Like, 22, 23 year olds. You know? And then so then over time, I just started buying oils and, amassing a collection because I started making money off of what I was blending, and so that fed the habit. You know? Like, the more money I made, the more oils I could buy.
Stephen:And so Yeah. So so just just just real fast because I suspect I what you're saying is so interesting to me, and I'm like, I'm picturing this. But what I what I'm actually missing because I'm not an expert in essential oils, give us, like, you know, you're you know, what are you smelling? Right? Give us give us some of the scents.
Stephen:Give us some of the you know, like, if you know, pretend I I know nothing about essential oils. Like, well, you know, where are you starting? Where are you moving to? Like, are there levels? Like, yeah.
Stephen:You know, these are kind of the things that everyone knows about peppermint. You know? And then there's these things that become just so we can get a better picture of you. Because I love the idea of you and your friends. You know, again, you're in your early twenties.
Stephen:You know, you're you're far away from home. You're in a desert, and you're basically
Katie:self trapped
Stephen:in yeah. Self trapped in the back of a truck, you know, sniffing everyone's oils. So just, you know, you can help us out. Like, give it give us a you know, what what are these kind of things that you were kind of initially buying and, you know, what do they smell like and, you know, don't know, even what they maybe remind you. Like, what is that experience like?
Stephen:Like, what are you, you know as you smell these things, what's what's going through your brain Yeah. At that point of your life?
Katie:Oh my god. So the way that scent works in the brain in general is that it's a master of creating associations. And so, like, if you smell something as little as, like, three or four times consistently about a person or a place, forever, you'll smell that thing and associate it with that person or place. And, like, whenever I'm explaining that to aromatherapy students, anybody like my age, like, around the fifth around 50 years old or so, I'm like, so just imagine, like, Drakkar Noir and everybody cracks up because it's like what all of our boyfriends wore, like, back in high school. So the scents that I was smelling in the desert, you're exactly right.
Katie:You know, it it I I selected these unusual scents because they just seemed really exotic to me, and it forever locked in not only the the time and the place, but it locked in the the book I was reading at the time. So I can I can smell these oils and remember the book exactly, and I can read the book and smell the oils exactly in my head still? So I so okay. And the other question you asked was, like, the kind of tiers of oils. So, yeah, peppermint, lavender, rosemary, all the herbs, all the citruses, those are really easy to produce, and they're pretty inexpensive to produce.
Katie:And, each of those plants has a really great yield, so the plant is, like, giving off a lot of essential oils, so it's really easy to sell. And then you have, like, you know, more and more expensive oils, which is basically the plant itself doesn't have much yield, and so it takes a whole lot of plant to get a little bit of oil. So there it's just a price barrier, really, and availability. So, you know, I I I wasn't as transfixed with, like, peppermint and lavender and rosemary, but I got cardamom essential oil, which is still one of my favorites and is in one of my most popular blends. I got that.
Katie:I got clary sage, which is my favorite, Let the record show. Essential oil scent ever.
Stephen:And I also Say so what what say that again. It's
Katie:what? It's clary sage. Ah. So it's not like a white sage like what you see in cooking or in smoke bundles, it's a it's a different plant, cleary sage. It is a salvia, though.
Katie:But, and then I had dill, and the dill spilled in this, like, wooden box that I had all my stuff in. And it, to this day, still smells like dill. And so, like, those three oils, because they were some of my first, are, like, just, a real presence in my brain. You know? Like, I was young.
Katie:I had just learned a skill set that I was gonna practice for the rest of my life, which is meaning, massage and also room therapy. But, you know, it just really locked in those kind of initiatory days, I guess. I and I I think I do still even have those little bottles because I knew they'd be special. Mhmm. Like, they're in a little box somewhere.
Katie:But yeah. So those are my first ones. Mhmm.
Stephen:So what was the book?
Katie:The Mist of Avalon.
Stephen:Fantastic.
Katie:If you haven't read it, drop everything and go read it right now.
Stephen:I I have not read it. Is it a go get what is it? Is it like a
Katie:Oh my gosh. It's it's it's an Arthurian legend, written in the seventies with, like, you know, King Arthur, Morgana Le Fay, and all that. And I had just I have to I have to preface it by or have to qualify it by saying this. I just I was fresh off of literature degree, and this is the first time in, like, years that I could read whatever I wanted. And so it was very, very indulgent to read fantasy and science fiction after a literature degree.
Katie:So you're
Stephen:in the desert with your friends sniffing dill and cardamom, thinking of Merlin and
Katie:Yes. And And priestesses and and, like, yielding fairs. Yes. Yes.
Stephen:Oh, I love it. I love it. In a in a different universe, this conversation is about renaissance fairs and the paraphernalia that one buys to really feel at home.
Katie:Yes. Yeah. You know, I've only ever been to one Renaissance Faire, though. I have a a a friend got married at one, which is maybe the best idea ever. Like, everything is set.
Katie:You don't have to decorate. You don't have to cater. It's just like the party is happening already.
Stephen:Mhmm. There's
Katie:jazz. There's there's everything. There's everything. And so that's the only Renaissance fair I ever went to. And I I I really dropped the ball in the costume.
Katie:I really didn't do it up like I could've, but I'm not very good at costumes. So but yeah. But yes. Mhmm. I I should have gotten immediately into Renaissance fairs, but I didn't.
Stephen:If, if there was not a desire to keep this conversation tight, I would completely go down the road of, what do you mean you're not gonna costume? That's that's that's so crazy. That seems so out of character. I would I would have thought you are, like, crazy into costumes and such.
Katie:Oh, I can I can rock a costume all day long, but I cannot put one together? Like, I'm not crafty. Yeah. I have no glue gun skills, no sewing skills, not clever with that kind of stuff at all. I mean, I guess one could argue that my wardrobe is a little bit costumey in general, but not really.
Katie:I don't know. Yeah. Another conversation.
Stephen:We'll we'll Another conversation for another day. Okay. So so I I I had kinda cut you off, right, because I wanted a little bit more of and that's great. I mean, so if someone was like, hey. You know, I kinda wanna get into this.
Stephen:Yeah. You know, you could you can start with the the things that, like you said, kinda come to mind. Maybe maybe if you kind of Google, like, essential oil starter pack, you're probably gonna see similar things kind of over and over again. But once you get beyond that, you start to get into things that are rarer, more expensive. You know?
Stephen:Okay. So so we could talk a little bit more about that later, but that that that's really helpful. So so when I cut you off, you were like, I'm in the back of the truck. I'm huffing. I'm get you know?
Stephen:And then you were like, yeah. You know, I'm I'm I'm gonna start to make a little bit of money with these things, and that's gonna allow me to support my my oil habit. So so so kinda pick off there. Like, again, early twenties, you know, obviously, you're in massage school because you are you know, you're interested, but, you know, everyone's gotta make a little money somehow. So, yeah, just just kinda take a take us from there.
Stephen:Like, how did that evolve?
Katie:I love this. So for a long time, I would just blend stuff to use, like, on each client. Like, I'd have these little porcelain bowls, and I would just blend that amount of massage oil.
Stephen:Like, right in front
Katie:of them? Yeah. On the fly.
Stephen:So cool. But I
Katie:was, like, making myself learn how to blend really fast. I wanted to, like, really get that, get those scents, like, in my head really fast so I would know what not fast, but I just wanted to have some fluency there. And so I would just blend oils on the spot. I would whip up, like, a small batch of bathing salts or something because back in the day, my clients would come in and they would all sit down in this nice chair and have a foot bath, you know, with essential oils and salts and, like, rose petals and stuff and, you know, like, chill out a little bit before they got on the massage table. And while they were chilling out, I would blend their oil, and then I would maybe, like, have a diffuser also going or something like that for years.
Katie:And they would always be like, can we buy this? And I'm like, no. I don't wanna I don't wanna record these formulas. I don't wanna learn how to make labels. I don't wanna have to repeat anything or make a formula.
Katie:Like, it was a little bit the vibe of, like, I can't be bothered. You know? Like, I was a busy massage therapist, and I've just never ever been a maker. It's not really it's not really in my personality to, like, make stuff, except soup, I guess. But so I was living, well, I'd rather I had a studio out in Marshall, and I was the only massage therapist there.
Katie:Everybody else was an artist making stuff. And so after years of being there watching them make stuff and just kind of watching, like, the discipline and the day to day of that, I was like, I'm I'm gonna figure this out. I think I can make stuff too. And so I got, like, Mason jars from the grocery store and mailing labels. You know?
Katie:And I just started, like, I just started really small and really grassroots and was handwriting. I have good handwriting. And so I was just handwriting the labels, and I would go to I have a little shelf for my clients. They'd buy them. And then I would go to little talks or something, and I would be the aromatherapy person there talking, and I would sell my stuff there.
Katie:And I would just fold that money right back in until I had enough to buy, like, real bottles and real labels and big amounts of essential oils, you know, because it's really expensive. It can be really expensive to buy them in, like, you know, kind of the bottle that you could picture seeing at, like, a Whole Foods or something like that. Like, you know, as big as your thumb, little bottle like that is expensive when you're making a product that you have to cost account for. You know? So that let me, you know, buy ounces, eight ounces or something of oils instead of, like, five milliliters.
Katie:And so I just I just did, like, good cost accounting. That's how I was able to buy oils. And then I got really into buying oils, and then I stopped. I just was like, I'm only gonna buy the oils that I need to make the products that I make, and I'm not collecting anymore. And that's where I'm at now.
Katie:And I just gave my whole collection away.
Stephen:Alright. Well, we we definitely have to talk about that, because that's fascinating to me. Okay. So so but before before we get to that alright. So take me take me back.
Stephen:We're gonna rewind a little bit. And you are you're still in the mindset of I'm gonna sell some oils to make I'm gonna sell some some some oils to buy more oils. Right? Like, that's that's kind of the goal at at this point. And I imagine that you kinda have these things, and they're you know, you're looking at them at some point.
Stephen:Right? What are you thinking? Right? I mean, when you're when you're I mean, I first of all, I'm you know, you you know, your your current business, the apothecary. Right?
Stephen:When I think of that, I'm thinking of, like, wood paneled rooms with, you know, kind of these really beautiful kind of ornate ceramic jars and, you know, other interesting things and almost like looking containers. So if we go back to that time before you were like, yep. I I'm not not buying these things, you know, anymore. So in your mind, it was almost it was still a collection. Right?
Stephen:How do you have them just how do you have them displayed, and what does it make you feel when you see all of these things in front of you that you have, again, like, you know, very selectively curated?
Katie:Oh my god. Okay. I'm looking at my I'm looking at my oils right now. I'm sitting down in my apothecary looking at my oils right now. And it so it's ex my apothecary is exactly what you described.
Katie:It's like all these measuring devices and various bottles and jars, all different sizes, and there's this, like, element of beauty to it. Like, it's not, like, sterile or laboratory ish at all. It's definitely, more I don't know. There's, like, an aesthetic to it. And I've had a collection of oils for over half my life at this point.
Katie:And so when it's when I see this collection of bottles, which at this point is fully a utilitarian collection. Utilitarian. Yeah. Like, I have only the oils that I use in my products, so I only have probably let's see. Maybe about 50 different oils.
Katie:Like, I've got it narrowed down to that. It feels like I'm looking at myself, like, all the way back to that first thing where you're where we were talking about, like, if you are a collector, do you have a sense of a solid sense of self? I'm answering my own question. Yes. Like, looking at this collection of bottles, anywhere I've ever been as an adult, there's been a collection of bottles of oils.
Katie:Okay. You got me. I'm a collector. I'm not amassing the collection anymore. I'm just simply maintaining a collection that I use to blend.
Katie:But what was the original question, Steven? What is the what does it look like? How do I oh, how do I have them displayed? Yeah. Okay.
Katie:Hang on. I'm gonna answer that one.
Stephen:So No. Good. This is great. I love I know I love this. I I I love I just yeah.
Stephen:Keep keep going.
Katie:So I have so okay. Officially, in a perfumer's world, their collection of oils is called an organ, like a pipe organ, and it's displayed in a way like a three sided shape like a mothership. You know? Like, you're sitting at a pipe organ. You can picture, like, the controls all around you, like, three different panels.
Stephen:Sure.
Katie:That's how perfumers organize their aromas in top, middle, and base notes.
Stephen:Oh.
Katie:But any collection of essential oils kind of I think of as the organ. Like, this like, this is your organ whether it's that shape or not.
Stephen:So I've always Hold on. Stop. Stop. Stop.
Katie:Yeah. Yeah. Sorry.
Stephen:Yeah. Before you go on, that's so that's so okay. That is so new information to me. So before you before you move on, let me get this clear. Right?
Stephen:I'm sitting at a desk ish. Right? There's this sort of almost, like, trifold, although it's it's it's stable. Right? There's this kind of you know, to to the right and to the left, sort of these angled sort of racks.
Stephen:And then in front of me, you know, rack kinda facing me. It's filled with bottles, and it's organized. The lower level base notes, the middle you referred to as
Katie:Middle notes. Middle. And then top notes.
Stephen:And top notes. Okay. Just give us a little quick taste of what typically shows up in the base, what typically shows up you know, kinda what what types of things show up in these different areas.
Katie:Well, before I say that, let me say this. If you wanna see, like, the coolest, most beautiful organ of all time, you have to look up, Mandy Aftel, who is, my perfume teacher out in Berkeley. And she's the queen the queen of essential oil collections, and she has the coolest, most beautiful organ that you've ever seen. Like, amazing. Okay.
Katie:So her
Stephen:And just and just for those who are listening, I will put a link in the show notes to
Katie:Oh, nice.
Stephen:It looks like she has a website, and I'll put that in the show notes. And if there's not a easily identifiable picture of her organ, I will find one and put it in the show notes. So okay. So so go
Katie:so thorough. Yeah. She's a prolific writer. She's amazing. She's also my birthday twin.
Katie:I just wanna shout that out because maybe it gives me points. We have the same birthday. Okay. So base notes. So top, middle, and base notes are all about the molecular aspect of the essential oil volatizing.
Katie:So base notes volatize really slowly, meaning they evaporate into the air. That's how we smell them. Middle notes are in the middle, and top notes volatize really fast. So when you smell a perfume, the very first thing you're gonna smell is the highly volatile top note. So that's gonna be like a great example of that would be, like, grapefruit oil, like a citrus, really bright citrus oil.
Katie:You can picture it right now even with wine. Like, it's the top tangy kind of effervescent scents. And so what distinguishes those are they have kind of a bright smell, but also they don't last long at all. So a top note, if you put that oil all by itself on, like, a little piece of paper, you wouldn't be able to smell a thing after, like, five minutes. It would just disappear.
Katie:They're just absolutely ethereal.
Stephen:So so it it disappears because it literally, like, molecular molecularly Yeah.
Katie:It's that
Stephen:great. It's not that your brain is sort of, like, gets used to it quickly. Literally Yeah. Physically It's
Katie:not yeah. It's not nasal fatigue. It's actually, like it has it has volatized and disappeared in kind of a I think the easiest way to describe it is, like, evaporation. Like, we can all picture water evaporating. It just is gone.
Katie:It's in the air. Right? Somewhere in the air, those molecules are. Same thing with scent. So then middle notes last a little longer and base notes last a really long time.
Katie:And so a lot of people will design a perfume scent to have a kind of a balance with those so that you have some staying power, but also some interest at the start of the smell. And so a perfume becomes kind of like this moving sculpture or like an invisible narrative. You know? Like, it's moving the whole time, and and it's moving you somewhere. You know?
Katie:And so that's the difference between and I I have to distinguish this, like, between botanical perfumery, which uses only, plant based, oils or in some cases, animal based oils, like, with musk or castoreum or whatever versus, like, synthetic scents, which are kind of, like, you know, test tube babies. And it's just kind of a one dimensional I don't mean that as a judgment. I mean that as literally chemically, it's kind of just one dimension. Okay. And it and it volatizes at the same rate.
Katie:So, like, if you buy kind of a, you know, I don't know, like a drugstore cologne kind of thing, you know, like something kinda cheapy and, synthetic, it doesn't do that shifting that I'm talking about. When you put it on, it smells the same until you wash it off.
Stephen:Oh, that is so and that, I mean, that alone is worth the price of admission to this. No. I'm serious. I mean, that is so, so fascinating. So so okay.
Stephen:I I got a couple questions here before we move on. So first of all, we are we are kind of talking about perfumes.
Katie:Mhmm.
Stephen:But this this same concept applies to essential oils. Is that correct?
Katie:Yes. Essential oils have their own complexity, but they're not you know? Oh, I see what you mean. Like, essential oils are the ingredients for botanical perfumes. That's what you're asking?
Stephen:I I guess I wasn't sure, but, yeah, that's helpful. Okay. So so so for the purpose of people who are, you know, again, kind of thinking about, like, what you do, how you do it, but, you know, I think, ultimately, there's some people who are like, oh, man. This this sounds amazing. I'm gonna start an essential oil collection because, you know, for for a lot of the things you're already talking about, at least in the beginning, could almost think about these things in a very similar way.
Stephen:Like, I could mix these essential oils and make a perfume, or I could make something medicinal or or whatever. But okay. Alright. That that's helpful.
Katie:Yeah. Exactly.
Stephen:Okay. So what you just said is so interesting to me. The idea that you would blend oils in order to tell a story. Like, so it has a narrative, and these things unfold over time.
Katie:Mhmm.
Stephen:And part of the reason you're gonna pay more money for something like that that is in fact truly crafted, but crafted in a way that it's the evolution over time for me that's so, so fascinating versus you might smell at least the initial scent might be almost identical to this thing that was made in a chemistry lab with, you know, synthetics. But and that's gonna be cheaper, but what you're not getting with that is that's just consistent you know, whatever. It's it's just a wheel going around and around and around. They may miss the, you know, the poetry and the romance and the adventure of this thing as it changes over time.
Katie:Exactly.
Stephen:And See, people should know that. If I knew that, I would I mean, I think if most people knew that, they'd stop buying their perfume at CVS or what you know? Yeah.
Katie:Well, exactly. And here here's actually the best part of the thing that you just described so beautifully is that the other reason to use the botanicals is the the human chemistry contributes and becomes a part of the experience, whereas a synthetic scent will just kind of mask and bully your own scent, your own pheromones, your own, like, signature scent. Wow. Whereas a botanical perfume will will synergize with it. And sometimes you end up with some kind of, like, absolutely beautiful harmony that you could never dream of, you know, having created intentionally.
Katie:And then other times, it smells terrible on someone because, you know, I'm I'm always cheeky because I I sell my, anointing oils at, like, sale you know, big craft type sales a lot, craft beer kind of things. And so I talk them up a lot, and I and I always say, this is cheeky, but it's true. Like, you're the last ingredient to this botanical scent. Like, your, your scent still has to weigh in. You know?
Katie:Does this smell good on you? And and if I I have a lot of, like, circles we'll gather together, and everybody will be putting on one of the oils, and I'll be, you know, leading something about the archetype it represents or whatever. And I'm like, you know, okay. We all put this on at exactly the same moment. We could wait about fifteen minutes, have someone come in and smell each of us.
Katie:And the chances that they would say we're all wearing the same scent are small because our own chemistry would have contributed so much to the scent at that point. Yeah. And so it's even more poetic in my opinion because it's it can't replicate it. It's like, you know, if if if your true love is wearing this scent and their, you know, aroma is marrying with this scent, you can't find that anywhere else. It's so personal and so intimate.
Katie:You know?
Stephen:Yeah. Yeah. I mean Yes. Oh my god. It's so cool.
Stephen:Okay. I mean, I you know, I can already see. Like, this is this is gonna be a problem for me. Right? Because now I'm, like, in the back of my brain, I'm like, I think I wanna collect essential oils.
Stephen:I think I wanna do this. I'm gonna just stop this episode right now and You
Katie:would love it.