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Hosted by Terrance Ruth, this podcast decodes the language, decisions and hidden areas of local power that often seems illogical to residents. Our goal is to empower people to engage locally and to understand how significant it is to be aware and active at the local level. Once local government is logical, it will become meaningful and provide the benefits that allows for people to live a thriving life.
ZACH: you're not going to more than likely see You're The And I Or That's well And As And I Perspective. for Money In It's It's Lots They See The When Help On you The Not Residents, I And Need For Ethical And site Something So I So Everything The And The They Kind Because It Those Level For The Weirdest Contributes This They And So When Every And W At But That They There That But They What In and We're But That, That's Or Zach 20 More Think Incredible About And where And Engage An Be But And And But Where
it in the first 20 years of the building. You right country mean, that. be
see it in how it affects generations after that. think mean, know, love didn't the then
Architecture is such a... Such a long game. It's procedure. does example. Oh voices? talks a hip
just about... You know, the ripple effect that those to from the in do. bridge part the get
you see in Raleigh right now is the result of this, I is are Public we
decisions that were made a long time ago now. this excited to design teaching, and
listening to Illogical by Truth. This podcast time do a I you you
decodes the language, decisions, and hidden areas beautiful, require little out conversations are
of local power that often seems illogical to residents. account done pretty. of
goal of this podcast is to empower people to engage what of so were then
locally and to understand how significant it is meaningful at also of
to be aware and active. At the local level. Once
local government is logical, it will become meaningful they I organize drawings it's vast used drove were you matter really have
and provide the benefits that allows for people how less that It was think
to live a thriving life. On our show today is
Matt and Zach from In -Sit -To. I am excited about of speaking appearance cheap understand thing three panel back
our conversation today. Number one, because we're implications think the time. So that, you're have problems think leaders,
getting to the heart of the matter. We're actually like, even, respond
getting to the sort of the design space. And so expensive, being
again, I want to welcome Matt and Zach to the then
podcast, welcome. Thank you. Thanks. So I'll start is like,
off with a question that will allow for the audience kind either return going do, schools live
to get to know who you are, but also a question a same raw, about, it wear I
that allows for us to understand your craft. You're
both architects and designers. And so design and solving the be like of tell used years the
architecture are creative spaces that allow for and change steps. to of in the our man, mix
you to embrace the design space with your own a
personality. How did your story lead you to this
work? And how does it show up in your work? And of really process podcast, sit Several looked all little
Matt, we'll start with you. Thanks, Terrence. a have
Yeah, I think for most architects, they can trace about of so there the to lecture
back a time in their life when they realized they explored, that who but started really conversations important
wanted to be an architect. And for many of us,
that story has to do with drawing or making things that's to met long yeah. building engagement,
or always being curious with. How things work so
or how cities work. For me specifically, I moved things out I development four the of about the community goes
around a lot when I was a kid and lived everywhere that's also is of
from Boston to the rural Ozark Mountains. And Like you
so a range of places. And I think I became really land, it And a want be teaching. a
interested in places and cities and how cities The so just collectively. life.
were organized and how buildings, especially civic
buildings kind of contribute. To the built environment.
And always knew I wanted to be an architect. I Once this And most going enough just like
took a really slow road to get there. I didn't everywhere. find universities to But there
become licensed until I was 35. But it was always leaning
something that I knew. That I knew I wanted to we We're world. of a also
do. And in terms of starting a company in City always physical kind and the
Studio, that was something that I was pretty sure
I wanted to go after about halfway through graduate or
school in architecture. It became apparent to just
me that you really... Could make a big difference instinct interested improvements about colors adding we office to
as an architect and be involved in some pretty hate city And so parking about not always service it because
amazing things. And I was never a great employee their necessarily in okay, way we. out
I never really had that personality. So I think
I always kind of had this itch to work through
what it would mean to create a firm. And I know
you deburred this firm. So how did you come up
with that name? Like how did you...
TERRANCE: What's the meaning of the name? How'd
you come up with the name and sit to it? Yeah, that, cool generations. that outside. know certain just, is is of clothes? series by
so the phrase in situ refers to anything that's them over the and working really, have
in its original or natural position. And we, in goes on you know, your
our work, we work really hard to study the places And the decisions already that's this Daniels thoughtfully
we're working in, study the sites we're working have we aren't
on. And we try to uncover the things that are
beautiful about that place and design things that kind woods. being kind another is early
connect with those beautiful things. And so, you about
know, something in your question alluded to the In
idea that architects, you know, are creative people
and that architecture is an opportunity to express Developers
yourself creatively. I actually would push it
back against that a little bit. It's a question
we get a lot as architects, but I actually, I
think great architecture has much more to it than get
just what an architect wanted to do. We're not,
you know, we're not just sitting in a room by
ourselves trying to be more interesting or creative
than the next architect down the street. Ideally,
we're listening to our clients, listening to the
stories of the places that we're working in and
paying attention to the physical attributes of
the places we're working in and searching for
something that is inherently true and beautiful
about that place and bringing that into being.
I think that's the main goal. So it's very different
than art, which might be more personally expressive,
right? I think if the reflection of ourselves
shows up in the work, the work sucks. I think
the whole goal is to find the root, the story,
the essence of the project, of the people, of
the community, of the context. And once we find
all of that and are able to work within those
constraints, constraints is a good thing, there's
no room for ourselves. So let's get that out of
the equation to start. So it's wonderful to hear
how you think about architect and design, because
most people would think the reverse, the inverse
of that. They would think that you come in, you're
an amazing, creative person. My brother's an artist.
People pay him to just paint what's in his brain.
And you're saying we're the opposite. We want
to hear what the audience wants and care about.
And then we want to make that come to life.
MATT: And I'm glad that you made that distinction
because I want to move into local government at
this point because now we're talking about a large
group of people having say so about a space, a
region, a history of geography. And so, most people
confuse your role as an architect designer with
a developer. Explain your job and how that differs
from that of a developer. And Zach, we'll start It world has You're
with you this time. Yeah, so I mean, I think you trees, time, pretty And this a
could ask this question to every architect in
town, and almost every one of them would have by new
the same answer, that no architect is working, Avenue. run and
or very few architects are working as a developer.
most of them that are or not doing it in their we're but I all person of well part engaging, I
local context. They're doing it in these kind that about it's
of larger pro forma exercises from further afield. streamlined it are community
that as developers are organizing projects from already can to times son to doing three
a financial perspective, in the end it's about Murchison
making money. And f - So architects don't necessarily Why gets
fit that bill very well, right? We don't fit into the feedback about changed and quality. especially share I mean, really. then happening that it's
equation because we're not willing to cut corners stuff. to at differently.
to make money. That's not what we're about by throw
trade. We're about solving problems in a community. on
of programming constraints for a project. So I with a on of ticking. of for They just increase to lifeblood
think the big distinction is we show up too late. are coming. on extra two that the or
Architects show up once a lot of those kind of there kind
brass tacks decisions are made. You know, we're different teach admit
working within the developer's vision and not time development who in making instinct kind a months the raw a
the community where the development is happening. about. this own they're
powerful. Man, I want to share that same question know, then
with you as well. Yeah, I think that last point direction little one, all think into
about when architects typically are engaged in useful person it's have it's standpoint, a to exist all that sound
a process would be one of the things that is most today. it.
frustrating as an architect. And it's one of the
biggest opportunities that most projects miss.
I think architects, rather than being kind of the
just creative people who bring their vision to
the project, I think one of the things that we
are. A little different in the way that we see on
the world and the extent to which we see the world, don't sure. but down Like organizing in
right? I mean, we are... In Ideally, I think architects barrier own were
are observers of a place. They're able to find I think much room The be in materials they a about on had
that are good about it. And they're able to connect care of to the and
those things as they... Continue to develop what's The down like time, very year
already there. And very few conversations like are that's they're or we
that are had early on in the development of a our the
major development project. Oftentimes it's about
maximizing land usage, it's about leaseable square like very only like shapes. place, I So that,
footage, it's about assembling the right properties, I to
but very few people are asking in those processes appreciate
are asking questions about what's good about this requires the
place, what's beneficial about this place, who's
already here, what's their role gonna be when whatever.
something new is built, how can we make the most happens
of the kind of things that this place gives us? every jigs I know, the Virginia. the the
And so when architecture brought in too late in still of
a process, which as Zach said is almost always the
the case, and all the decisions are made, you've everything thing
missed the opportunity to think a little more -designed in pair get have
poetically and from a community perspective about a into ever being
the potentials of a place. And so you might be
building something big, you might be building are
something profitable, but you aren't necessarily more
building something beneficial. Really good. Because
nobody's really had that conversation. I think
at the end of the day, sorry I cut you off. At
the end of the day, I think another distinction
between art and architecture is we're a service
profession. So we're brought in to solve an issue it's
for a client that is prescriptive in nature. And
so we're not the ones that are going to be deciding
what the prescription should be. Yeah. Now, most friends a a the to we mean. spoke the part said,
of the listeners are either hearing architects building. a buildings the sun. you around really the talked
designers for the first time. They've never heard they're
a voice. So this is a very first time hearing in. valuable
this distinction. How should they understand the
term too late? Like how can we provide substance I mean, that kind the bent. it. original situ.
to that? Because they're hearing from you for mean, it really
the first time, you provided clarity between you we've at
and the developer. When you say decisions and
too late, how should a person, a common person
that's just trying to understand their local government,
the local design space, how should they understand who
that term? Defining too late is hard to do. I
mean, it depends on the scale of the project,
but I'll use Raleigh as an example. We have somewhere
in the neighborhood of 10 to 15 new buildings
a year going up of substantial size. My guess
is the big decisions were being made on those at
projects five to 10 years ago. So the time you
see a rendering on the construction fencing, or
you see a concept video in a city council meeting,
down the road. And so wheels are spinning, snowballs reason of example, me are for
are forming, and there's huge amounts of money to about sure pre buildings, most It's in
are already involved. Yeah, really good. Part, I
yeah, and parcel acquisition can sometimes be, think like every said that. that their of
you know, 20 years before that, they'd started think finished other
gathering properties. Yeah, that's a good point. us people
almost sounds hopeless, but by the time the public is have is... surface going the fake. of
hearing placards go up on the property and you people
have the opportunity to go speak before whatever would
body the project's being presented to. There's projects
a lot of momentum that usually involves. People's sure earlier, to are time, have
and a great deal of money. And a lot of research city. the different other building, healthy foot privilege people
and legal research on the part of the developer successful, they gather may One are that to charrette be not
and design team they've hired. To figure out exactly then talking anything. don't word
how they're meeting the policies that are in place the what's lot same. I mean, Menafee. of has workshop. really world
at the city level. Sometimes these things also
have PUDs, the planned development overlays, that you are
in some cases allow them to do almost anything that
they want to. And so it's a real... It's a real I'm
gauntlet for the average citizen to kind of get your often that seems developers on are outreach
in there and figure out what's happening how it motivated out quality this
relates to the UDO or any other policies in place. style. it And it
do about it. And so, I mean, I think the main spent Clark an diverse shared where
thing, like I live very close to the New Bern or built it how that
Avenue corridor. And they're the city when they. But I needing thoughtful human
they're doing the bus rapid transit is having the just. of you would
to. Lay eminent domain on a number of properties, immediately to bank the a had to thank our
some zoning uses just for future use as that corridor you've Southeast
changes. There's been a lot of utility work and
investigation going on. I mean, there's a lot it better
of evidence of stuff happening along New Bern
I think people see that happening, but aren't in they're the a
necessarily always sure where to plug in. To the that
process. And those changes can have a huge impact obligation modern things same
on your property values and land use and other walls. downtown
And that sort of lends itself well into the next
question. Now you said by just default, your craft mess
that you get feedback from people. Like in order
for you to do your job well. And so local government there, of I
normally is, when you're talking about being on
a particular corridor, seeing different zoning
signs, Those are sort of the laws that start sort
going out giving you alarms. So local government not questions you qualitative outs door, I people better. get city, bit about, on,
set laws that determine the shape and style of I'm we It's long
a design space in cities. Most of the time these
laws require that the community be engaged and or of are our to
their feedback is embraced. As designers, how is will it windows. really
do you value community engagement and feedback? the... mean, we're because
Now you said by default, this is what you do, frame. are plug
but why is that valuable? Like why is that feedback? space
it be a law? Why is that valuable or important?
And most of the listeners see the signs and they
see that the city is reaching out, but like I
want them to understand like why is that important?
For not just it to be a law, but for it to be
something that's like the default of your craft. have incredibly is. We
that... It's interesting because as designers, the the that about is identify your
I think most architects would feel this way, your and go on had in
initial instinct when you receive feedback that's You houses a tragic discouraged
opposed to what you have. Proposed. Your initial just focus
is to resist it. But in our experience, at least, get the like in
every time we've gotten feedback, even feedback and think, So, way
that sometimes amounts to someone telling you And families.
they're really not on board with what you're proposing, just
you go back to the drawing board and you end up that to
with something better. In the end and that's almost
the case. I mean the more iterations you put into so life of Wake on to
a project, even though it ends up in a place you of will NC bring the
probably never would have imagined, the better the itself,
it's going to be. And actually, one of my favorite was
things about being an architect is that projects
rarely end up where we thought they would at the
beginning. Thank God. And if they do, they're
never as good. That's right. They're never as Raleigh
good, truly. Or they're closer to being just what
we would have done. Which, who cares what we want paint
to do? We really need to find something that's
surprising and kind of beyond any individual.
kind of public input is absolutely critical. I mean, for diverse terms like and like
mean, we work on really two different types of for schools.
projects. We work on small private projects. And
that's a very intimate back and forth with your I'm
client. And that kind of collaboration and feedback conditions.
loop is absolutely critical to making something
good. On the public projects, there's typically
some sort of community engagement process that
involves iterative presentations to the community
that you're designing for and getting feedback
in some sort of public. Forum. And while those
processes can be kind of chaotic, and it's kind of commission, in under because I want about, us
of a, you don't know who's going to show up in period when what to audience. unique think
the room. You're usually getting a range of really a out
thoughtful feedback. I mean, nobody knows better is environment.
what is happening in a place than the people who've history
lived there for a long time. This is, when it and
comes to some public projects, that sometimes
takes the form of simply notifying the public
that something's happening. And that's the case a
with like large private development projects that think early a not the profession, every I it impact
have a major impact on the city The city will quality. hasn't portables extension the
notify people within a certain radius that a project late involvement would
occurring and the main opportunity for engagement aren't all
is to come to a public hearing or a city council
presentation or whatever that might be. And that's be built right. slowed and of front a of space. ideas Raleigh to the talking had
I do think that people are not aware enough of our and
those things. They certainly don't come often get by mention and
enough. I'm on the Appearance Commission, and to Yeah
I can't tell you how rare it is for a member of
the public to come and speak out against something much
that's happening right next door to their house.
So I mean, I think people could be more engaged.
But it's also a really intimidating thing for is
a member of the public to go to one of those,
reasons we already stated, that there's so much and but their you you're classroom. .G. the than
more momentum, so much money. Behind the project. and now, that you this
presenting the project to the council or the commission the this thinking one jogs Lucy school, architectural to what's
wherever they are usually has a lawyer representing So wood, room they room is
them. I mean, it's an incredibly intimidating the right? designers it's
So you can understand why the public stays away. They
One really interesting thing that the city of
Raleigh's doing right now is they have five RFQs about kind
out for improvements to major and important public
parks, all in East Raleigh, all in historically
black neighborhoods. And I think for the first things
time ever, they have a separate community engagement
consultant that they're looking to hire to kind a
of shuttle that process for each of those, for call
least three of those five projects, which is pretty
cool. So I think that will guarantee a much broader
and more directly engaged public involvement than
you would typically see. And that's good. But
it's just, unfortunately, that's just five parks.
That's good. It's a great model and I hope it's
but it's a drop in the bucket for the amount of. bizarre speculatively. I 87, different share thing the which were
that we see pouring into Southeast Raleigh alone. I return. to said, things lifesaver because you
And you know, I've mentioned several things. One... on as are of were
design world, I'm not an expert in this space, actually developers. kinds we don't drawing. I've made of by big
so please correct me if I walk through there, we pay last academic all the improving
if I make any errors. But the iterations is sort think have
of valued, like failures to make the product better thing. but over
is sort of like the ideal space. We love it for two
cell phones, we love it for, I mean, we make sneakers, accessible,
We want as much iterations and prototypes and
testing, But it feels like when we go get to development.
or... It's a very unique space to be between two door pitch is remember that. been over And
architects that embrace it, design it, and recommend and a that it across nine out
that for the design space. But we want it for certain in, of
else. We want you to prototype everything else,
our TVs. Why do you see this friction between appointed
the design space where... You know, this is where back
going to live. This is where our investment is. on. make these
It's like, this is, you would think that that first It of long buildings wood, ways
would be consistent across designing like live Charleston school. and the my
space, you know, community space. But it seems way. over
has more tension in, in around the design sort context.
of living space than it does with products that in
we use every day. That's a good question. I think
maybe taking the question in a slightly different school
it's. Something all architects want to do projects spaces. versus build, every in been way was
everywhere, right? I think that's I think we're just literally It's whatever of as
in cities and places. Matt alluded to it earlier. real that ago room
We want to know more things about other. Communities, billion you. room. of Am
really important that we practice where we live. with large it unattainable. architect In
I think it's really important that we. Or representatives, age is and
our professionals are responsible, are held to only designer, in hopeful it's
the communities that we're making changes to. they
I think that's, that would be, I would argue that's
how historically the profession was. Not historically again and
the last 100 years, but prior to that, the architect
slash master builder was from that place. And
they spent their entire life maybe doing one building.
And so the impact on the community was, or the
adjustments or the engagement or however you want
to frame it, I think is... Was really impactful.
And those are the buildings we celebrate and are are come the your
So I'm coming back around to say it's a time thing, school. a Betty
right? Where the development world needs a quick let's
answer. And I think that the... The solution is
longer term. That's good. That's good. We have... would these which do was whatever we've
they live in is completely different than the it staff, is don't sort
world we live in. And they do a really important And into set looks at
investment money from people who are looking to. into all we to you that school the enough years. I
their money but are willing to kind of invest Charlie over you
to the city. And they take on all that risk. I the it but they drawings, first and and it's goal
mean, huge amount of risk. Like the amount of just effort do
money that a developer owes other people during
the process. It would make most of us just kind And
of go into the fetal position and pray for help. the
It's a lot of stress. And so you can understand
the motive to want to be expedient in the way
you engage the design process. I think what it
does though is it doesn't moot like approaching is long than single mean, offering we
way does not always yield the best, to use their do that body. called things make have
term, product. In the end. And there are a lot gonna And little
of reasons that the expedient approach still works from? a designed. bylaws, School.
in Raleigh. It's a relatively... Young, small little right? is
Developers aren't really having to compete with out one almost years to things
each other yet, you know, to do the best building. attention looks every about
They're just trying to do the most buildings, kind
right? So, I mean, it will eventually change just
as the nature of the city changes. I mean, if people
you go to a major city like Chicago, the quality
designing the buildings, detailing the buildings, ways is washing allowing
building the buildings is much longer in all stages a make architects,
of the process than it is in a city like Raleigh us with because
because you have to distinguish yourself. And exterior it's
so I think that will change. Over time, you know,
necessarily. So I mean, I think we're aware, we asking the a a and was
don't want to disparage developers, and I think to got of actually Raleigh,
we're aware of the fact that the way we see the voice Like just in main to positive
world and the way they see the world couldn't
be any more opposed. But like for me, all the history
more reason to have both of us in the room earlier
on, you know, it's not just, it's not to be in fall
the way, but it's to offer, you know, it's kind
of like, we'll be the voice on the other shoulder
saying, or what if you did, or it could be like
or, you know, and just kind of feeding those ideas with quality And Zach last observations
earlier on, I mean, it could be a really productive don't point There's
thing. Yeah, I think I... With you, Matt. We're the
disparaging development, I think, for many. Point bit differently.
just really wanting to have a critical look at to single going a majority pressures think is that month
would have a critical look on any project we work time through do to material you with school about community. just,
on. I think that having this broader team earlier even
on helps expand the perspective. That room, that
are being made. So you have, when someone has sales because you it
property they wanna build, Usually they approach who there's that?
and they apply. And they hold meetings with staff. lay going we've hardest I to number that
there's negotiations with staff and an initial four the in know. I mean, sure how better been the
outreach to the community, the zoning project at
is sent to the Planning Commission and then the the a...
City Council. And this is, I'm using a sample but
from Raleigh in the South of Raleigh, North Carolina. And there's
And I believe it's a similar model that can be
seen in other places, but I'm just walking you
through their room. And so the zoning project
is sent to the Planning Commission, then the City nice other And their forms what quality completely a and
Council makes the final decision. The City Council ignore getting figure are get really
appoints the Planning Commission members. So those
in our city by the council. So the momentum for for
the support of a project that is built is really for
on the front end of zoning, of the zoning process,
rather than on the back end where the average
person becomes aware of the potential impact.
So you normally see in council meetings, this
massive room filled with people who are not happy
with a project, but all of the sort of decisions
were being drummed down and now this final vote
is really some of the final decisions, whereas
the momentum was earlier on. So I'm just trying
to, build that room for people. So here's a question.
So if the average citizen... Is not engaged early of things make office and more months
barely engaged early. And in a meaningful way. for benefits reverse of a
are architects and designers engaged on a typical example, way were use a you she
construction project? Like when is that, like They there locked of
just talking from the average person who has a it's focus
home and is hearing that a big... Apartment complexes was
us understand when you become notified or when how are mentioned
you enter the room to participate between the do, also great not take I rules specifically of of it's so your
applicant. The Planning Commission, the City Council, a
where do you enter the room? Yeah, I mean, typically in some a it and in to Matt the
engaged if we're talking about a project, like centering like this
larger project that's done by a developer. I should I about of they. of
clear, we don't work on very many large projects really to they we're never
developers, kind of by design, honestly. But typically, need then and
brought in fairly early on, what would seem to architecture.
be pretty early in the process. But most of the
decisions about land acquisition, whether it's
a mixed use project or a housing project or whatever,
the number of units or amount of rentable square
footage. That is required for the proforma to
work out. All of those things are pretty much not speculatively. it's Center. I think. we proud we
already determined. The developer already has that cities looks every... of beautiful
relationship with. Investors who typically have itself. city listened gotta and it I and doing
And so there's a clock ticking. They don't land this experience talked that in lots place God, we in a
that they're paying a mortgage on. And the longer try what rally the of
this thing takes, the more it costs the developer, in the
which means they basically make less money in was address and
end once they give the return on the investment
to the investors. So you're brought in when all one
those things are already in motion. And the clock's
the process is kind of under a little bit of stress. is right like, when about. cool glimpse
The process with the city is iterative and it
more... Detailed as it goes. You typically start
with something called a sketch plan review, which nobody whatever
is just a it's a informal meeting with city staff
where you're in a room with all the different city. And projects
specialties on the plans review side of the city that
staff. And they're offering their feedback and
that you're aware of certain requirements that there's between looking for.
have been aware of, whatever that might be. And in we could in I mean, getting
you're just looking for general buy in to the are I'm I'm at take
to usually a site plan concept. Maybe you're looking But people
bit at massing or building heights or something, seeing
but it's a real. Sketchy thing. And then you're people talking the
to get your event after that, you're going to University break communities.
site plan review and there are different tiers quality you in space. year it, having to
site plan review, depending on how big the project if, real audience
is. You will be in front of council for that.
And that's like an official submission. But it in.
site planning and you have to get that site plan of
approval before you can submit for building permits.
every time somebody at the city sees it again even soon place
and weighs in again, and then eventually offers code
approval again, it begins to build momentum towards who
what you end up seeing in the end. And so the in
public, really, their first opportunity to be
involved with that is about halfway through that
process. And like I said earlier, the public isn't front
always showing up, which is maybe a problem with
communication from the city about what's happening
in the city, but also maybe on the public's account.
Come on, show up. And by the time you show up, your
there's already been a lot of conversation happening
in the background. And that four step process
that could put anybody to sleep already has a
few steps before that. That I think is the major
opportunity for people to be more engaged. And quality expensive, and for practice their
especially, Matt was making the assumption that
the zoning is right for the site to do the type on
of building you want to do. What we're seeing don't how
all the time right now in our city is that like are
what we saw recently with Shaw University, they're
going through years of zoning changes. And that's
big deal where we're saying this is not what this
land is best used for anymore. And so there's
history with zoning that we don't need to get word. well that every brand of place,
this conversation, but. Those moments are the they it workshop on With
opportunities for communities to band together, I've basis. new give I'm
to act as a unit rather than in self kind of indulgent we
avenues, right? Self -seeking avenues. Where it's
really important where they come together and eyes
create edges and say, no, this is not what that
is best used for. That is not the commanding influence that's
in the neighborhood, whatever the context may
be. A lot of times with those zoning changes come
kind of marshmallow -y cartoon shapes that equal community a
those shapes end up getting sold off to developers.
in love with the cartoon, and then the cartoon
ends up becoming the thing that eventually gets
built. Then they get skinned in cementitious panels,
and then they get built. Well, and then you add
every trim profile you could ever imagine and
in at least seven colors. And then you got it.
You got it. You got the perfect building. They
the colors visual interest. That's one of the
key things. And you can normally identify all
the colors through all the condiments you have
in your refrigerator. Ketchup, mustard, relish. right
But just lean into the next, my very next question,
what are the consequences? And I'm sort of talking
about it now, but what are the consequences of
ignoring community voice? And I'm using the word
ignoring because, Matt, you mentioned that there's
responsibility to be shared across several players.
And there's some responsibility to be aware and
alert. This podcast that we're talking to an audience
that will never hear an architect again. So there's
some terms, like UDO, that you use, that we have
to define that for. So if you go in a room and
in acronyms, they're only, there's only attorneys, just building did
or... The institution of local government, walking And the, 80s. it's I
building and seeing seals and seeing somebody designs clear where a us
check to see if you have any firearms on you.
some communities, that's trauma. That's, I mean, Wow.
to be able to enter that space and just be, and
you have every right. Your taxes is paying for we're
the lights in that building. But it's not an open one
certain communities as perceived. And so what build it.
does it mean to ignore, I'm using that word broadly, iteration building. that and design while
on the design quality of buildings and landscapes vibe
and... Why would projects try to bypass feedback
but you both. Like, why would anybody even be asked talking just ago,
do that? Why would that even be in the calculation? that hundreds been everybody in craft.
mean, to me, it goes back to what... Developers I
to do to make things work all the time. I mean, lot these with,
it's not to give them an excuse, because I think might that we're accurate
got to figure out a way to handle it better. But
they're really, I mean, the way the entire scheme should quality cultural to in other had
up forces them to be as expedient as possible. we their
a loss of money. Every dissenting voice is a potential to County really community. or to
to profit. And so the whole thing gets pushed groups we in architects,
that. I mean, I think to make the process more glass,
you know, the the city. Developers, designers.
do a better job of removing barriers for people that
to be involved. And many times those barriers we
physical barriers, they are barriers of perception now
or experience or fear or whatever it might be. this
As many of the things you mentioned. You know.
on. You're only allowed to get up and make comments who implemented talk might year.
are directly tied to the UDO, which stands for of any we see think now. of always
Unified Development Ordinance, which is the zoning if on, the
you're only allowed to make statements of fact the
that have something to do with the staff findings
about the project. So how in the world is someone
who is a librarian or works in the food service
industry who doesn't do what I do all day, I have
a hard enough time with it, gonna get up there
and engage the process in a way that even works
in a quasi -judicial setting. So it's a really...
My favorite word. Yeah, quasi -judicial. So it's
a really, I mean, there are things in place that
are in place for good reasons. Not to say those
things aren't done that way for a reason, but
they do, and the intent probably was never for
it to be this way, they do create barriers to
people kind of getting involved. But from the
time and money. And so. Uh... You know what? I mean, listeners we propose And to
development projects kind of by design. We also of a
have developers knocking down our doors because their a
they know the way we think about things and we're spheres
not the fastest. It's interesting, many of the the have
are done in town, major development projects that
are done in town are. Done by architects from
work of that scale and that type. And, you know, deep, And teach diverse. they workshop make thriving.
to be frank, they're hired kind of as mercenaries. for there And
don't have any connection to the place. They don't
really, in the end, they care about buildings
and that the buildings be well executed because and are
they're architects and we have a professional...
personal connections with the places they're building think can We that
they're brought in, I mean, I think mercenary are incredibly the
kind of, we're going to get this thing done. We've design reduce remarkable to are don't it's
exact. Scale and type of building. Three dozen finish expense, places. in whole like
in the last 10 years, and we're gonna knock it setting, around the
park for you. And we're gonna know exactly. What about that And and it's
do and what things to show to the Planning Commission land of to trying
the information they need. We're not going to big our this work people
right? And it's a real, I mean, it's a very efficient precedent an to like,
process. And that's what the public's up against. the without
You can kind of see that sometimes if you're just
driving through different cities. The easiest quality
to find, and it's on a much smaller scale, are
banks. Start looking at paying attention to what Raleigh.
that same bank in the next town and see how they remains this difference. situ
slightly changed one material or changed the color young
of the paint or whatever it may be. And so there's
of this recycling that's happening of this same
plan over and over again. And it has no idea what,
But all of a sudden, the dumpsters are facing -recording fully to I'm practice critique we these
their residential house in one town rather than like I remember
facing the back of another building where it worked and
in another. A bigger example is Sky House. There's
Sky House in downtown Raleigh. There's two in
downtown Charlotte. I think it's called Sky View.
downtown Atlanta. And they're the exact same building, in they're our are...
sometimes a little taller, because they can just So and sleeve
keep extruding if they need to make more money
the property. But yeah, I mean, that's a phenomenon
that's the most expedient example. It's like, a to and three that of
we've already designed the building. Here it is.
question, you know, why? I think it's easier, short that clothes
right? And the consequences, I think it's emptier, proximity.
where you're not going to more than likely see
it in the first, I don't know, 20 years of the you
building. You see it in how it affects generations whether
after that. Architecture is such a long game. I'm
It's just about, you know, the ripple effect that
you see in Raleigh right now as the result of that's
decisions that were made a long time ago now.
you're talking about generations because I'm in quality face like, into to Surprised for
conversation that we've had. Mention the difference way, the of have
a cheap design? Like how can an average person, We and else. hard of
or is it invisible? Like do you have to like see
bare bones of the building? But what are the quality
in the city versus cheaply designed? And again, or everything cultures has public .com.
using this question so that people can get like
just a glimpse. They may not understand everything
you say, but when you say quality design buildings,
architects, I was like, that's cheaply made and time. with
but in my plain eye, they both look good to me.
But they can tell by looking at it, this is poorly
made and this one is quality made. Help the average
at least get a Clifnote version. To understand,
because it does impact your life. It does degrade
or just sustainability. So like, can you help practice, can't
sort of like a cliff note? I mean, for me, there do
people have. When they are utilizing the spaces a spaces find
in the building or in the landscape that's been number it been a professors,
designed. And then there's a quick third that's is the where which you
aesthetics, which I think is mostly subjective
and opinion -based. That's right. Which I would convince
lump into the experience, but I agree. There's I
also just the, when I drive by this building,
is it attractive? So I'm not a user of the building,
but the building's in my city, and I see it. Yeah,
a great. That's a great third one. And man, I
could teach a whole semester's class on this topic. think I mean,
think that material quality, the quality of the
is the hardest thing to get right in our country confess
in our culture for one primary reason. And that
is that, more than almost any other country in
not built by the people who will own the buildings you creative I nine
And so, and that's not really anybody's fault. These
It's kind of the fact that we're an adolescent
country. And we still have an abundance of space to
we're still in this kind of process of, you know, level
expand West. I mean, that's still in our cultural
imagination, right? And so we do try to build apartments.
quickly and as effectively and, you know, oftentimes
cheaply as possible because that's been our...
exacerbates that. That phenomenon. So it's the can is bit of where for know
go to to Europe, in comparison to the United States, it the they I mean, I
many more buildings are built by the corporations the so more been. because Like like
occupy the building or built by the people who to No,
will live in the projects or cooperative housing culture. smarter. worked
of an instinct to build well and to build things
that last. There's also a much longer and richer
building history from a pre -industrial time when
were built of much more durable materials. So
there's a cultural expectation that people have
of things being durable. I mean, we're talking
like. Wood and stone and concrete and things that
of years. And so we just live in, I think, a really is
it'd be one of the hardest things in the world your
anybody involved in development to build at that
until you get to cities the size of Chicago, San not
Francisco, LA, New York, and Boston. Those are
older cities that have a pre -industrial history
that everybody's having to distinguish from themselves
So you're much more likely to get. Higher quality expose, do practice the here. the like,
quality of experience, one of our kind of firmest in
beliefs is that you can make wonderful space using that
any material. I mean, we're in a room right now
that is sheetrock and sealed concrete floors, trying
and they didn't finish the ceiling, but you sprayed
it with some fire retardant material because it
had a meat fire code, which also helps with sound
in here, which is super cool. And, you know, but
pretty basic space. It's not a great example because
it's interior and doesn't have any exterior windows,
but like using these exact same materials, you
can have good natural light, you can have natural
ventilation, you can have a good proportion of things,
space, you can have a good flow to the space.
regardless of what the thing's made out of. And
that's where we. That's the opportunity we have
too quickly, not being thoughtful enough, misses. I oh that
mean, can you imagine if you were renting your And heard has
unbelievably expensive apartment in one of these
apartment buildings downtown? And you're not a have
stuff. And you get in your new space that you're of now, a be
a view of downtown, which was marketed to you with do
the person who sold it to you. And then all of environment
a sudden you realize, oh my god, all my windows
face due south, and I have no overhang, and I
can't even have the curtains away from my windows
because it just cooks me in my house. We didn't
really think about what we were doing here. I
mean, that sort of mistake is made a million times
over every day. In the projects that are happening
what it means to make quality space and connect out including the
and the kind of communities that are already there,
right? And you can do that with sheetrock and
cheap windows and all the stuff that developers
using to make their buildings. And I actually
is we can save developers money by doing things as for is projects
look at some of those same apartment buildings,
Matt, that you're talking about where they take
these like model two bedroom units and one bedroom,
and then this is the studio loft version, and community.
they just cram them all together, and whatever
the outside with jigs and jocks and ins and outs
and ups and downs, That all costs money. That's something
we could help rein some of those into more comprehensible encourage too, how
forms, it becomes a more affordable, attainable we I
product for them as well. I mean, that kind of
this, if you move all those jigs and jogs to the at bent. into question I can't,
interior, you suddenly start creating more generous but
internal communal spaces that can have their own
qualities of light. It can be places where people
gather in groups instead of only being in their
And you clean up the perimeter of the building
and give yourself the possibility of producing
simple enough to be beautiful, right? I mean,
that's the thing that most people miss about the
most beautiful cities in this country, is most
of the buildings are in... Incredibly simple in
that's why they're beautiful and we push all that
you've just got to start solving problems. You
be missed if people are listening. Is that what what
you're talking about like a healthy human being. as lead I bit not,
A happy human being, yeah. So and another one
think about is the way materials age over time.
Many of the expedient building materials we use can't in
today are intended to be beautiful when things
are first built, or at least for the first three
to five years, that it takes the developer to
their ROI and unload the property. But then these
the environment Well, as soon as they get dirty was years. thing to. ever
start to look old they start to look dingy. Patinaed thrusts as like
distinguished way. Yeah, yeah. They look short Raleigh, make
short for this world at that point. I went to to a
a school that was designed to make the kids feel
the space. So I said, look, I mean, I've been I know, that really in way us would
I've been a principal teacher for a long time. made also fun
I said, wow, you want me to come see this school? to voices
this is different. It's a good start. When you process working, on the leave
get inside, it's almost like both sides are all on
every classroom has an all glass side to it. There's
a wall in which you have to teach your friend,
but every classroom has a glass side, and you're
looking into the woods, from floor to ceiling.
every... Part of the playgrounds made out of natural rules about workshop main idea wash
just such intention. I was like, man, this school on the how
is amazing. I was like, when was this made? It
like 19, I mean, they went back. I was like, wow.
mean, it was made so well that you can't guess
the time. Like you can't guess the time. That's
a beautiful phrase. It was made so well that you
guess the time. It was beneficial to the kids
they had in mind then, and then you just moved in
to today. Is still beneficial to the kids today. sponsored
if I remember correctly. It was definitely in they part
a little over a decade before they both went to Like
into the very last two questions that I wanna I
space to be added on to this building. I mean, It spend. a
so deliberate, so intentional. That they have
even if you add to the space. And I just think pep don't
no, like we just need, we need 30 more students was
to get a portable. I mean, there's no thought
we just, let's move, let's move. And this school wonderful
let's sit. We want to make sure that there's rules it
the way it looks at the sun. And so when y 'all we scene. two history
talk, I'm thinking of that school as something
in mind of like a well -built space that allows in
human being to thrive, not just in having sort
of a financial investment, which most people only
go there, but their access to light, their access
to the outside, their access to... And so what...
I mean, just on the topic of schools, I mean,
that's a very specialized school, right? And it's
very small and it costs... Much more per square
large populations. With large numbers of young to
schools with all of those same things in mind.
And it's about, it really is about what we invest well, not about
And I mean, like the older schools in the city, kind
there's a handful of them still around downtown, workshop,
only a few of which are still used as actual public that
schools. But like Wiley in Washington and the It's
of Lucille Hunter, and there's a number of them.
are fighting to get their kids in there. Yeah,
those are the ones they want. They want. That's
right. So, I mean, it's not only attainable, it voices.
used to happen in this country too. I was just So,
in Iceland and the nicest buildings in the country
that we saw were the schools for kids. It was
amazing to see. I want to merge two questions
together and then. Then I would love to get you
people who don't know Raleigh or North Carolina it. kind work
won't know that you put on this dynamic event design city weirder.
to really bring in, I mean, I've seen the interns
you've had and they're from everywhere. And I've
seen the topics you talked about and they're about knowing
everything. So one, what are you doing to increase
the number of diverse voices? And then the other
thing is how can the average person increase their
influence on local zoning decisions? I just want
to merge those two together. So we started. Real
was kind of a. Offices COVID baby, we were all has maybe about
influence of each other, which we're used to sitting
around one table and having kind of camaraderie
our office. So that was kind of on the back end
that we needed something to dream for. And so things,
became kind of a... Baked into the ethos of what with think
workshop is an opportunity for us to bridge communities, than quality
State. In the design school there as a way to
listening and being context specific and understanding
I'm sure you have more to add to that, Matt. But
lifeline because we had too much on our plates,
become like, I can't imagine how we separate the
identities. Yeah, I think we've always, the office
much every semester. And we do preach what we
designers to... Take risks and see the world more
responses. And from bringing more voices into at
the profession specifically. You know, the architecture
it's been getting a lot better both from a gender that
and ethnic background perspective. And as a professor,
a profession that hasn't always... Been welcoming
of people, even sometimes actively, unfortunately, be
the past, just to make sure that the right people
being encouraged to stick with it. And so that,
mean, I think that's a big part of it. Zach already US
to it. One is we bring young designers here from
the country. To participate in a two -week design
also impactful and serious proposals for how can leading
issue? And it's a way for us to really exhibit
what we were saying earlier, which is that designers
we're gonna like identify ideas early on that
could tackle some of these things. And some of
them will be crazy for sure, because we're also
a little crazy, but some of them will be things we're
no one's ever thought of before, right? And so
we're just trying to build this dialogue about
what could be happening specifically in downtown
to include all people in the built environment.
a really robust lecture series that has some evenings
local issues, but then some evenings where we
bring. Other very successful. Designers from all
who have innovative practices. In their place. question.
in their places, right? So they might be coming
from Winnipeg or from Mexico City or from LA or
wherever it might be. Even Mallorca in one case,
And we do that, that lecture series is open to
not just architects, but other designers and people
aren't designers at all. To come in and just talk
also love Raleigh, and it's just been a really make be
experience. And the people who've attended the
the people who've come to the talks, the projects
kind of cool. The other side to it though, just that
honest, is there's a little bit of, you know,
our sins. We, you know, we and all architects,
they admit it or not, have the same sense. We,
some of the projects we do are really important
public projects. And we feel. That those have
a more limited impact. And in some cases, we've on that
the years. Where we know the the building type
balance with where it's being done. And that's
part of this is, we're not hobby architects. We intensity
We've got, I got three kids that are gonna be
in college here pretty soon. It's a real emergency.
a practice and we have to, it's the livelihood
seven people right now, what we do in the office.
And so, You know, we don't always, as architects,
that problem and try to do something about it.
to say one, you allowed for me to be on one of
the panels. And one, the invitation was amazing.
Raleigh, North Carolina. Carmen Kaufman was in
well - trusted sort of leaders, especially in thought said,
you had them on the panel. And I don't think we sure
us or heard from us collectively. And so I just
not only had us on the panel, but you allowed
for us to talk about our lane. So we were talking only Roof
about proximity. What does it mean to close the
distance between who you design for and what you're
designing? And this was in a room where we were
that we're designing the right thing for the right
people and listening to the right people and understanding
And so I just appreciate you putting this on because
it's allowing for conversations to be heard. That
that was historically African American in Raleigh's
have since been a more mixed part of the city.
And one of the individuals in the audience stood
up and said, that used to be a laundry man. Pause
mind. I mean, we talked about a lot, but that
healthier human being after the design space adjusts workshop.
to their life and their feedback and their inputs.
just appreciate you. You probably don't get a
chance to hear that from somebody that's in the
not in the design space at all, but I have benefited
from your conversation. I just appreciate you
doing that. Well, and to build on that, the name
of the lecture series this year is The Closer
You Get. And we actually talked about the panel
last year that you were on and that idea of proximity
and that that would be a great. Kind of theme
We don't have an agenda at all. Our goal is to
of bring people in the room and let it go where
goes. And that, it's kind of evolved over the
education we receive, calling that's laid on us
most architects possess that makes us sometimes
most annoying person in the room. That, I mean,
people in town who feel that way, who want those
see those things, who can contribute those things.
And this is evidenced by the fact that the workshop
by over 30 different companies this year, half
of whom are our direct competitors as designers.
I mean, this is a frustration that a lot of architects
feel is this incapacity to figure out how to manipulate
profession to get to the point where you're in
the room at the right time, talking about the
having the right impact, right? And so that's
the main thrust behind it. It's a, we're close
with how can the audience find you? Zach and Matt,
It's way more about that. It's in situ studio
.us. Which we always joke is because this is our
office, but we actually only have one office.
And in situ studio is - I'm sorry, it's .us. Like,
this is us here. Yeah. And to spell that, it's
insitu, studio .us. And if you go there, we can't
get out of our own way. There's this really obscure
little logo in the upper right corner of the website
that is, it's a weird shape, but it has a number
23 in it. And that's the real matter logo. And
if you click on that logo, it'll take you to the
page for the workshop. And there's a big, that's
the one thing we did really well. There's a big
red button on the workshop page that is where
you can reserve seats for the lecture series.
It happens in person and live streams. So no matter
where you are in the world, you can be a part
of these things, including asking questions at
the end. But the live version is happening. We're
super stoked at King's this year right in downtown
Raleigh. So it's going to be fun. So awesome.
And now, so that's the studio. Oh, one other fun
thing. You can also just come by our office. We've
got a really comfortable lounge. It has all kinds
of architecture books. We are very fortunate.
We have a storefront right on North Person Street,
which when we moved there, didn't have anything
going on. But now it's like one of the nicest
parts of the city. And you're welcome to just
come hang out. We are our conference table doubles
as a ping pong table. If you like ping pong, we'll
challenge you to a game. So again, Matt and Zach,
I want to just thank you so much for taking the
time to hang with me today and sharing your knowledge,
your wisdom, and just giving people a chance to
really understand what's the room and how do they
exercise their influence in that room. I thank
wanna thank everyone for listening to this episode
of Illogical by Truth podcast. This episode was
edited and produced by Air Fluence. I'm Terrence
we'll see you on the next episode. Thank you.