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Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Over: Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to longtime listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 1:I thought you were gonna keep playing your game instead of talking to me.
Speaker 2:You are more important than any game that I can save the status of so that I can get back to it later.
Speaker 1:It's so funny because you're not even a gamer gamer.
Speaker 2:No. No.
Speaker 1:That's You're like an nerd not
Speaker 2:really how I operate. I just love you. I would put aside anything to love you. Aw. You can hear my heart beating.
Speaker 2:Thump, thump, thump. That's
Speaker 1:really creepy.
Speaker 2:Creepy romantic?
Speaker 1:What? Who are you?
Speaker 2:This is why we don't do podcasts late at night, dear.
Speaker 1:We're not even sitting up. We're so tired.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Merry Christmas.
Speaker 1:Oh, my goodness. Also, this is the problem with being out of town for three months because I don't know who you are.
Speaker 2:Oh, well, hi.
Speaker 1:I know. I I do.
Speaker 2:My name is Nathan. I'll be your husband for the evening.
Speaker 1:No. I do know who you are. I just mean, hi.
Speaker 2:Getting reacquainted.
Speaker 1:Stranger.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:That was a long time.
Speaker 2:It was a very long time.
Speaker 1:What was the hardest part for you? Children?
Speaker 2:Children. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's a lot of children all by yourself.
Speaker 2:It's a lot of children. I love our children, but there's a lot of them. And I'm very introverted, and I struggle with depression. And for half the time, because of insurance reasons, my medicine wasn't available, so it was rough.
Speaker 1:That was a whole drama happening at the same time as I was having war dramas and Airbnb dramas. I was out of the country trying to get our insurance renewed.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But we did it. Mhmm. And really, sometimes when we're so overwhelmed, things like that, that are such simple things are actually a really big deal.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so I'm proud of us for getting that done.
Speaker 2:When I'm overwhelmed, checking my email is a big deal or listening to a voicemail is a big deal. It's one of my signs that I know that I'm struggling. Cause otherwise sometimes I don't notice.
Speaker 1:Oh, really?
Speaker 2:But if I can't open an email, then I know that something is wrong.
Speaker 1:Wow. I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Depression is rough.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I don't recommend it. So I had a realization the other day that we we talked about you and I, or at least one of you and I, about how the other day I was I was having a rough depression day, and and I and I recognized the feeling of despair that I was having, that it was the same kind of, if this makes sense, the same flavor of despair that I used to feel when I was alone and waiting for you. And I thought, well, that doesn't that doesn't even make sense. My life has changed so much since then.
Speaker 2:It should not be the same thing. Right? And it really struck home to me that my depression really isn't just moping and it's not just being lazy, that it's the same thing that comes and goes, and it's more like I have a chronic illness. And as I've started thinking of depression as a chronic illness, it's helped me to feel more compassion towards myself. I've started being able to differentiate between those sort of negative thoughts that swirl through my head when I'm having a depression day and my sort of actual more clear minded thoughts, which I don't know for you, maybe that would be a discussion between two different people.
Speaker 2:But for me, I feel those as separate things inside myself even though I recognize they are both myself.
Speaker 1:It's fascinating.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I feel like learning about dissociative identity disorder has helped me understand my own brain better. And knowing that I also have all of these parts, they just slosh together.
Speaker 1:So even though you don't have DID, understanding about DID has helped you understand yourself. Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:I think what you shared helps me too because we are in a place that is different than ever before. We've talked about it a little bit in that I feel like we worked for three years to sort of learn what safe is and that now time is safe. And we have you and we had the therapist and now we have like a best friend besides you.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Sorry, honey. No. I'm kidding. So having friends and having you and having this support system that we've never really had before to the extent that we do now and long term because we met her at the beginning of last year. Right?
Speaker 1:And so I mean, beginning of this year. And so that's the longest we've ever had a friend besides you.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Just wanna clarify.
Speaker 2:I win.
Speaker 1:And so that's a big deal, and it changes things in ways that I didn't expect. And so I don't know. I've been trying to put this into words for weeks, actually, and it's really hard. There's something about being at that level of safety and finally recognizing it that feels so hugely good and so powerfully right and so amazingly safe, like, off the charts that it's almost comfortable in a way that I wanna stay. And I feel like sometimes there's a struggle between wanting to just stay in that space and not have to deal with the past.
Speaker 1:That feels very much like creating someone new for that, except it's different because I'm still here and I'm aware of it. And I don't know how better to explain that. But the difference is that because you know about the DID and the past Mhmm. And the therapist knows about the DID in the past. Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And our friends know about the DID in the past. Mhmm. Which is also new. That's never happened before either. And so
Speaker 2:And we all still love you.
Speaker 1:I know. It's so weird. Right? It completely trips me out. But because of that, to actually be friends and honor all of those relationships in those ways for it to be authentic and positive and continuing, I also can't pretend that's not there.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And so it doesn't become someone new, and it doesn't become a comfortable place. What is safe actually becomes uncomfortable, and that I'm pushed to both address and include all of those other layers as well. Do you see what I'm saying? And it's really, really hard. Because if it were just someone who only liked a part of me, which has happened in the past, then we've talked about that in different scenarios.
Speaker 1:Even before we ever moved to Kansas City. Yeah. We talked about that happening in different ways. And it's and so it's kind of a way we've been violated or traumatized several times where one part was favored by somebody and it caused problems or something. But because that's not happening and we're so completely accepted and so completely loved, we even as a system can't deny certain parts or can't deny the hard things that we need to talk about.
Speaker 1:Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:It does.
Speaker 1:So part of me would like to say, well, we're safe now, and we're good, and we're aware of each other, so we've made all of this progress in three years. Took us three years to learn that. Like it's literally It's
Speaker 2:a big deal.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, it's been three years since we first emailed the therapist. Three years since we first emailed her, three years almost three years since we got our appointment, even though she was so booked out, we didn't see her until the March, I think. But it's been almost three years. And so part of me would like to be like, look.
Speaker 1:We've made all this progress, and we're actually functioning better. We have a job. We have friends. We're in our marriage. We're parenting better.
Speaker 1:All of these pieces are in place.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:And so can we just stop? Stop the therapy? Well, stop all of it. Can we just not be DID anymore? Can we just not do therapy anymore?
Speaker 1:Can we just not have the past there anymore? Can we just stay in this safe world we created? Like, there's this pull to just be comfortable because it's been so hard for so long. What is okay is that being a respite, a respite from so many years of it being hard, a respite from doing the hard work on a daily basis. But what it can't be is an escape.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because these relationships are so authentic that I can't escape that and still be present in the relationships because they require that authenticity. Yeah. Which is part of what makes them healthy. Yep.
Speaker 1:It has blown me away.
Speaker 2:If you think back to the people who have not been safe in the past, people who have persecuted you or endangered you in these various ways, would you say that any of them knew the truth of you? No. Even though some of them knew DID and some of them knew about your background, none of them actually know you, like, who you are as a person.
Speaker 1:Right. Right.
Speaker 2:And so it's fascinating that part of part of your trauma is feeling so scared that people are against you or that you're not safe around them. But in truth, the people who love you the most are the people who know you the best.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's exactly right.
Speaker 2:And we know you all the way to the bottom as best as anybody can probably, and we love all of you. We don't just love the charismatic bits or the scholarly bits or the funny bits or the childlike bits or the creative bits. We love all of you. We love the sad bits and the hard bits and the
Speaker 1:Boring bits.
Speaker 2:And the boring bits and the traumatized bits and all the bits.
Speaker 1:There's so much there. So I got to see the therapist.
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:On the podcast, we've already talked about that we have to change therapists. So the people who listen know
Speaker 2:Mhmm.
Speaker 1:That that's happening and that it's been sort of a big deal the way that it unfolded significant enough that it got our attention because it's impossibly hard to do. Like, it's so hard to leave her.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And
Speaker 2:But it's working. Like, it's happening.
Speaker 1:Right. We're doing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But we did get to see her Mhmm. To say goodbye because mostly how all that unfolded, we were out of the country when it happened. So I basically wrote her a letter and sent it, which is terrible, except we were gone. Like, it wasn't really avoidance. We were literally gone, and it was part of the notebooks which we wrote in every day.
Speaker 1:So that's how it unfolded.
Speaker 2:And you were also in communication with it, right? Right. When you could texting or emailing or something.
Speaker 1:And when I would.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Because we still have that thing of when it gets that real is when we hide the most, which endangers what is best for us because that's the exact moment we should connect. So why is that hard?
Speaker 2:History, trauma. Ugh. It's like the kids who've learned certain behaviors from when they were abused to small children and now are trying to use those same behaviors, but it's counterproductive now and self destructive rather than life saving.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that framework because I don't mean to do it. Yeah. And I'm not trying to hurt them, and it's when I need them most. And it's not like drama in a gamey way. Like, I'm not doing it on purpose to try to get something out of it.
Speaker 1:Like, I can't stop it. And I know it's hurting them, and I know it's hurting me, but I don't know how to fix it.
Speaker 2:That is what therapy is for.
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't even like you. I don't. But here's what's different too than other friends in the past, is that you just stay present with me because you're here and you're stuck with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And you're just gentle and kind.
Speaker 2:I choose you.
Speaker 1:And that's what my friend does too. Like, she just stays there and she checks in, but she's not mad at me for being human. You aren't mad at me for having these challenges.
Speaker 2:Nope.
Speaker 1:And so for the first time, part of being accepted includes understanding what is hard for me and the limitations because of that, but that's also exactly what opens up the space for me to do it differently so that I can say to you or to her, this is a really hard day for me because of this, or even I'm not sure why, but here's what I'm feeling, and I will check back in with you. Or being able to communicate in some way as we keep enduring. The same as you do with depression. Like, you tell me. You've learned to tell me, I'm having a heart depression day.
Speaker 1:This is not about you. And you communicating that to me directly. Yeah. And it's such a huge thing for our relationship, whether it's you and me or me and my friends, that we can communicate and just say, this is what's happening, and then receive that presence.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Just as what it is, knowing that it's not some sort of game. Like, I'm not saying, oh, I'm depressed when really I'm sending messages to you about how unhappy I am and how you should change. Right? It's just a statement of, I just tell you about what's happening with me and you accept that as a truth.
Speaker 2:And like like you say, we're being present with each other.
Speaker 1:It somehow provides some kind of constancy that makes that safety three-dimensional. And so between you and the friend and the therapist, it's created this whole safety network of support.
Speaker 2:That's so good.
Speaker 1:It's amazing, though, because it opens up the possibility for things to be different. Yeah. Because then, even on a hard day when I'm struggling with those things or with, like, memories or something, then it's not just about the risk to the relationship because the relationship is safe. I know that no matter what, the therapist is still there. I know no matter what, you are still there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I know that no matter what, my friend is still there. And so I no longer have to worry about those things being at risk. And so when I'm hurting or struggling, I can focus on why it's hurting or what the struggle is, and it just makes the healing exponential because the connection is still there. And what I think has happened that's so terrifying is that I finally believe it. Yeah?
Speaker 2:Yeah. That's vulnerable.
Speaker 1:But it's terrifying. I mean, guess that's
Speaker 2:I have that effect on people.
Speaker 1:You're so scary.
Speaker 2:I am so scary.
Speaker 1:When I saw the therapist when I saw the therapist to talk about the letter we had sent and talk about seeing the new therapist and she's sort of giving us permission or encouraging us to talk to the new therapist. Like, we're not betraying her.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which is what it feels like, and it's heartbreaking. And so there's lots of layers to work through to get to that. But she's done it so well, and it hurts so much. Like, we miss her, and it's hard. Yeah.
Speaker 1:But she has been so gracious about it and has been so present still even in that transition.
Speaker 2:Because it turns out that saying goodbye does not have to be a betrayal.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness. Who are you? Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:Right? Because so often goodbye comes after somebody breaks your heart. But it turns out, it can also just be a parting of paths.
Speaker 1:What the what? Don't you wiggle your eyebrows at me.
Speaker 2:I will wiggle them loud enough for the podcast to hear.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness. Okay. You just blew my brains out.
Speaker 2:I'm pretty sure that's not the idiom.
Speaker 1:What did I say? Said it wrong again, did I?
Speaker 2:Blew my mind.
Speaker 1:Okay. That. Deaf people. Oh my goodness. Well, okay.
Speaker 1:Here's what I'm trying to tell you.
Speaker 2:Yes, please.
Speaker 1:All of that nonsense, all of what I'm trying to tell you is that while we were talking with her, one of the things that we were saying or trying to say, which was not effective at all, I can assure you, because we're like when we try to talk to her. But one of the things that we said was about how we know that these are the pieces that she gave us in these three years. So that now, even though it's going to be hard, we know that we're ready to talk about the hard things. Yeah. So at the airport on the way home, we found a free book on a free book table, but it was about DID.
Speaker 1:And one of the quotes in it was talking about how part of getting better is being able to face what happened without minimizing it. And so I was sharing that quote with her, and somehow we ended up on something about my mom, who you knew, you met her at the end. Right before she died, you met her.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I said something to her, to the therapist. I said something. I don't remember exactly because, you know
Speaker 2:Someone else remembers.
Speaker 1:Something like that. But there was something said about things, like the example of instead of just saying, I'm ready to talk about the hard things or I need to talk about the hard things, we need to actually just say abuse.
Speaker 2:Wow. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right? Because it's a way of minimizing. It's a way of softening the blow. Yeah. And language is actually really important to us because of the writing.
Speaker 1:It's important to you so you understand the heaviness of that. But she was saying and so she asked something as a follow-up question to that. And we said, well, she was unwell and that she was also an addict because of the pain medications. And you know what that was like, and that made her mean sometimes. And she said, as she always does with her truth bombs Mhmm.
Speaker 1:Said something about maybe it was easier to tell yourself that she was unwell than to know that she just hurt you. And she talked about that. And she said that no one should have to recover from their childhood.
Speaker 2:It's kind of it's kind of the fairytale mother conundrum. Right? Because you have good mothers and you have wicked stepmothers. And they're, in a way, a child's way of perceiving two parts of their own mother. Right?
Speaker 2:That how is it possible that the good mother and then exasperated angry mother are even the same person. So your mother, when I knew her, was someone that you worked very hard to mend your relationship and to care for and to love. And so how do you reconcile that as being the same person who was complicit in your abuse? How when you were committed to loving someone, can you also acknowledge that she did terrible things that hurt you? And saying that she was unwell is definitely a way of explaining it or excusing it or softening it.
Speaker 2:Maybe you need to find the right story to understand how the mother can be both the good mother and the stepmother and how to love them both. Your forgiveness may be part of what transforms her. Because when I knew her, she was definitely difficult, but she was not a monster. And I think you were part of why.
Speaker 1:Those were really hard years.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. You worked really hard at them. That's why they were hard, Because you really invested yourself in in trying to heal that relationship. Just because something is hard doesn't mean you're doing it wrong.
Speaker 1:Well, can I read you something I wrote about it? Yes.
Speaker 2:I don't know. Can you? I'm sure your mom would have picked up on that.
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness. Okay. So part of the beginning of it is a little churchy only because I was sending it to her in the context of
Speaker 2:You sent this to the therapist?
Speaker 1:I sent this to the therapist in the context of our conversation that we had.
Speaker 2:Got
Speaker 1:it. Which included
Speaker 2:Talking
Speaker 1:about your We talked about changing words. Yes. And so it's a little churchy but only at the beginning. K. So that's just for people who wanna skip thirty seconds or something.
Speaker 2:I'll try not to be offended.
Speaker 1:Try not to be offended, dear. Okay. I forgot it started out with that or I wouldn't have just offered to read it. Here we go. And I'm shy.
Speaker 1:Okay. Here it says. It's like a poem. Okay. So don't laugh.
Speaker 1:I can't do it. I can't do it. It. Okay. Okay.
Speaker 1:Okay. Only because I don't wanna deal with your banter. She taught me the word banter. We'll talk about that later. It is worship to look through the night and see a Christmas star.
Speaker 1:It is worship to follow my wise women to the savior because the three wise men, right? Then I have those three friends.
Speaker 2:I love it.
Speaker 1:That's why I said that. It is worship to trust a God so real that even as a baby he cried and screamed much like I do about so many things. The holidays and New Year smell like something reminiscent of fog too thick to see through, too hard to remember. Except for the first time, it is not a year I want to escape. It was good this year, my first good year.
Speaker 1:I loved what this year brought. These souls worth keeping where I'm not alone because God with us. I feel like this year for my heart and my spirit was like the year we met. Which turned out to be a hard year by the end of it. Like Yeah.
Speaker 1:With dead parents and everything.
Speaker 2:But you found new soulmates this year.
Speaker 1:Right. Right. And so even talking about you picking a word each year for the new year, right, and the theme of that. And I am so grateful that for the first time in ages, like it's been so many hard years. We had so many things happen to our family, and we've endured so much.
Speaker 1:And I feel like this year, I was so so nourished. Like there's lots of things still hard and we still have six kids and we still have all these things. Right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And we were gone. Like we had this long trip and for the work and everything And we're getting ready to leave again. Like, I don't mean that it's easy. I just mean that it was good. It was so good in some ways.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Okay. Sorry. But while they talk oh, I wrote this when we left when we ran out of church. Uh-huh. When we were in the van.
Speaker 1:That's when I wrote this. Okay. But while they talk of the star and music paints a nativity, something happens in me. I am afraid and it hurts like the night. Okay.
Speaker 1:This part's a little bit hard. Maybe a lot hard, but I need to say it out loud, and I wanna share it with you. And I think it's important to share on the podcast so I'm trying. Okay. I remember the dark.
Speaker 1:I remember how cold it was. I remember the walls, four walls closing in on me as time left me behind. I remember being hungry. I remember the taste of blood in my mouth. I remember I couldn't get out.
Speaker 1:I want to run away. I cannot breathe. Maybe it was easier to tell yourself, you said. Because remember we had that conversation. Okay.
Speaker 1:Well, maybe it is easier to run away than to stay. Maybe it is easier to disconnect than to feel. Maybe it is easier to disappear than to miss you. Maybe it is easier to avoid than to remember. Maybe it is easier to hide than to be forgotten.
Speaker 1:Except the star still shines as if it remembers, as if the baby knows. I remember crayons in my pocket and coloring on the walls, telling stories, telling secrets, scribbling in the dark, locked in the chest. I remember not being able to see what I colored, and so turning the crayons into dolls like action figures in the dark until they became friends, until they became real. I remember learning to paint entire worlds in the air where no one could see in the dark because it was easier to tell myself I could create a world than to face being abandoned in it. It was easier to tell myself I had friends even if they were crayons than to know that no one was coming to help me.
Speaker 1:It was easier to make up stories than to tell secrets. It was easier to pretend and play on purpose than to be locked in there cold and hungry and forgotten. It was easier to tell myself I could color in the dark than to wait for shadows to fall. It was easier, you said, to tell myself my mother was unwell than to know she hurt me. It was easier to tell myself that I couldn't remember than to know my father touched me.
Speaker 1:It was easier to tell myself I needed no one than to say what I was used for. It was easier to tell myself that I am bad and apologize to the world for existing than to admit I was unwanted and uncared for. It was easier to tell myself that they were not my parents than to confess that they did not parent me. It was easier to tell myself I forgot than to remember how much it hurt. It was easier to tell myself that I didn't have to recover from my childhood because I never had one, because I never was.
Speaker 1:It was easier to tell myself I couldn't see a star than to see the shadows where it shined. Except it does shine, and I see through the cracks. And if I'm not alone in the dark anymore and you were there where God was already waiting, then maybe it's a valley I can walk through as long as the star still shines in the night.
Speaker 2:That was amazing. Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening.
Speaker 2:I love all of you.
Speaker 1:I love all of your snacks.
Speaker 2:I
Speaker 1:can use humor to deflect.
Speaker 2:I have something for you.
Speaker 1:Oh, dear.
Speaker 2:You don't necessarily have to have this on the podcast, but this came to my mind as you were reading the poem in Seoul. Do you remember when we were kids, they used to advertise that little glowworm doll? It looked kind of like a caterpillar. It was green. It was a green stuffy with kind of a yellow face and a little nightcap on.
Speaker 1:Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:And when you would hug it, its little face would glow. Uh-huh. I am giving the glowworm to the girl in the box.
Speaker 1:Aw.
Speaker 2:She won't see me put it there, but she can hold it and see that light and feel love. It's the light of my love too. She can use it to see her drawings if she wants to, and she'll know that there is light and that there are people coming who love her. Merry Christmas to that little girl.
Speaker 1:You're gonna make me cry. That's not why I was even telling all that. We were supposed to talk about EMDR. Why are we talking about me? I don't even like you.
Speaker 1:I mean, thank you. I'm trying really hard to stay present, actually, because I know we're recording, and so I don't wanna get all switchy.
Speaker 2:Can I give another present?
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness.
Speaker 2:To someone else?
Speaker 1:Is it for me or is it for someone who's not here?
Speaker 2:I think it's for someone who's not
Speaker 1:here. Cheater.
Speaker 2:In the backyard, I'm putting up an amazing tree house. This is a tree house for Dawn. It has a ladder that she can climb, and when she's up in there, she can pull up the ladder so she's safe and no one can get to her. And it has windows all around so she can see everything that's going on and know that she is safe. And there is a rope with a pulley that goes all the way over to the house so she can send notes if she wants to.
Speaker 2:And she can ask for astronaut ice cream if she wants to. And she can have the things she needs. There's even a soft place to sleep. I know that she is one who helped to protect you by trying to run away. And I know that throughout your life, she has tried to help protect you by running away.
Speaker 2:And I wanted to know that I love her and that right now, she doesn't need to run away, that she can be safe. So she has a place that's her own. It's brand new. It hasn't been touched by anybody who's mean to her, And she's the only one who has permission unless she let someone else come in. She can choose to do that if she wants to, but I know she's a loner.
Speaker 2:I want her to be happy.
Speaker 1:I don't know how you do that.
Speaker 2:Is it pretty? Does she like it? Good. Merry Christmas.
Speaker 1:I love you.
Speaker 2:I love you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening. Your support of the podcast, the workbooks, and the community means so much to us as we try to create something together that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing, and you can join us on the community at www.systemsspeak.com. We'll see you there.