Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
“If we don’t provide a healthy framework for initiation, a toxic one will take its place.” - Luke Entrup
“Power over is an expression of weakness; empowerment is an expression of strength.” - Luke Entrup
“Silence is noble — it helps me listen better, parent better, and see more clearly what needs to happen next.” - Luke Entrup
“Recognizing where we’ve fallen short as fathers isn’t failure — it’s the only way we grow.” - Shaun Dawson
Raising Men is a podcast about parenting, masculinity, and the lifelong journey of raising sons—and ourselves—to be men of courage, character, and purpose. Hosted by Shaun Dawson, each episode features real conversations with parents, leaders, and thinkers redefining what it means to raising men in today’s world.
what my hope and my dream for our culture is
that we're raising men we're
we're stewarding and growing men
who are
deeply connected to their sense of personal power and
and able to get a lot of bold
and audacious things done for themselves
in the community while also
raising men who are connected to their heart
and connected to those that
their own kind of sensitivity and their own um
inner landscape so that they have the capacity
to use that power for good
my guest today is Luke Entrap
Luke is the founder of the Father
Son Connection experience
where he helps fathers and sons
forge meaningful connections
and establish rites of passage
Luke has devoted himself to helping men and fathers
rediscover the ancient wisdom of initiation
the thresholds that Mark the journey from boyhood
to manhood
he's been featured on stages
and in conversations around the world
for his work
in reintroducing rites of passage into modern life
and he and I share a passion around equipping parents
with the tools to raise boys
into grounded courageous and compassionate men
Luke it is an honor to have you on Raising Men
thanks so much for joining us today
thank you so much Sean
yeah thrilled to be here
and just really excited about what you're up to
with this show
so thank you so much
one of the themes that I've noticed
since starting on this journey
is that the
the institutions that guided us into manhood
in the past are now disintegrating and
and you know
that can be a good thing because we're not uh
trapped into the rigid confines of tradition anymore
and we can forge our own path
which is nice but that freedom can also lead us
leave us rudderless right now
you've studied and facilitated rites of passage
for years
so why are these thresholds so essential for boys
and what are the consequences
when they're missing in the culture
yeah I mean
what a great question Shawn
so this is I mean
this is I think
one of the more fundamental things we're wrestling with
right now as a culture
and so maybe it's helpful just to
to define what we mean by a rite of passage
just to kind of level set here
how's that sound that sounds great
yeah yeah
so a rite of passage is marking
moving from one way of being into the next right
and as humans we have
there's several
key inflection points in our development
um obviously the first one is
is birth right
we come into this world and there's a Celebration
there's an announcement the
the the
the tribe the community honors that moment
and the the most significant one after that is death
right everyone comes together
honors that right
but there are myriad
moments of changing
from one way of being into the next
throughout one's life
and some of the most important moments happen
developmentally on that path for our boys into manhood
right and throughout human history
we had these these ways to do that
we would um
and some cultures still do this
especially those that live closer to the earth
where they would uh send
you know
send the boy out into the forest on a hunt and he uh
either came back or he didn't
and if he came back he was then a man right
um some of the religious institutions you refer to
you know institutions are crumbling
but there are religious institutions that still do this
there's the you know
the bar mitzvah or the confirmation right
there's a marking of you were a boy
you're now a man
or you're shifting from one way of being into the next
and as institutions have crumbled
uh that part of us that's
I believe baked into our DNA
this need for recognizing ceremonially and ritually uh
recognizing moving from one stage of life into the next
as those have broken down
the need beneath that has not
it still lives in us as humans
and so we go look we go looking for it right and
and we can look for it
in some pretty dangerous and maladaptive ways
if it's not done really well
and you know
we see this through um
you know
kind of the
the classic example that people always give is
gang initiations right
for those that are really struggling with poverty
and not having a sense of belonging
not having you know uh
the steady presence of masculine role models
um these young boys will do just about anything
for that sense of belonging
that it that it provides
but there's a
there's a lot of other ways that this shows up
maladaptively and um
so that's what we're doing
we we view this as like 200 year project right
we wanna reintroduce these sacred rites of passage
marking one way of being into the next
to help our boys on the path to manhood
it's gonna take generations
um they've
they've mostly been lost in our culture
and we're we're here to reintroduce them
you know it's
it strikes me that one of the opportunities
that we have as a result of the institutions crumbling
and the rites of passage going away
is we can now rebuild them intentionally
and so what are the thresholds
how what would the thresholds been traditionally
and what do you see as the opportunity for marking
even additional thresholds
that maybe traditional cultures didn't recognize
for one reason or another
but might be really useful for our modern community
yeah well
I so there's this great author
Bill Plotkin
he talks about the different moments of development
from childhood into adulthood right
and the two big ones that I'm really focused
on in my work and that you know
I think we can kind of we can Mark especially for
we can talk about girls becoming women
but my work is really about boys reaching that path
demand so there's two big ones right the
the first is
the movement from childhood into adolescence
it's when the human body starts to change
puberty hits um
but also what's happening socially is
there's a sense of like
really coming into the body and wanting to
there's an impulse to start focusing on mastery
becoming good at something
and through a sense of belonging
so this is where we see sports teams really important
like this is that 10 to 14 year old uh
bands for me
it was uh
I was I was an actor
so finding community and
and real mastery in performance and um
so it can be whatever that
whatever it is for that child
for my son he's
he's in the mountain biking right
so it's this movement of like
really getting very good at something
and with that comes that tribal sense of belonging
the next one which is
which is thoroughly studied
and there's a lot of work that happens around this
it's from adolescence into childhood
this is the initiation into manhood right
yeah and um
this happens a little later
this is like 17 to 20 right
where they're no longer a boy
they're now a man they're out on their own
it's much more about independence
rather than then that sense of
of tribal belonging and they it's
it's about going out and making one's Mark in the world
and we see this you know
traditionally this is where
you know um
the boys would get ripped
from the arms of their mothers
okay by the elders of the village
and they'd be taken out and taught the ways of
what it means to be a man in this culture
they'd face some sort of ordeal
some sort of hardship
and then they'd be welcomed back into the community
and often times it was dangerous
initiation isn't meant to be comfortable
um so that happens a little later
right into the initiation into manhood
so you know I
I think about a a lot of the
the issues that I have you know
with my own journey in in fatherhood and
and with my son in particular
is wrestling with this tension that we have that
that my son has between he
he wants to belong and he wants
he wants to be nurtured
but he also wants to be independent
and often times we'll find
you know we end up having fights where he will want
he will run away from us but say
I just want love and
and those are those those are those two things
intention and it seems to me that
what you're describing is actually creating a ritual
around solidifying
exactly those things you're solidifying the community
and the belonging first
and then you're solidifying the independence
or maybe the
the power to make your way in the world
now that you're part of the community
does that does that ring true
yeah absolutely
I think there's you know
there like
like I said there's many ways to initiate
it can happen consciously or unconsciously you know
what my hope and my dream for our culture is
that we're raising men we're
we're stewarding and growing men
who are
deeply connected to their sense of personal power and
and able to get a lot of bold
and audacious things done for themselves
in the community while also
raising men who are connected to their heart
and connected to those that
their own kind of sensitivity and their own um
inner landscape so that they have the capacity
to use that power for good
right a heart connected power
um so that's that's
you know initiation
it's moving from one way of being into the next
that's what you know
the work that we're doing
we're trying to steward that
but there's many forms of initiation right
there's there
there's just
the power over type of initiation that can happen
if we're not doing this intentionally
it will happen
these boys will find a sense of belonging somewhere
uh whether it's through
you know unfettered greed in the world and
and running roughshod over our planet or
or you know
all the other maladaptive ways that it can happen
so what how
what is the new way of being
where we're wanting to move our boys
as they become men into and for me
that's like heart centered power right
and so that I think that's what you're talking about
that sense of connection that sense of love
the loving presence of of the child
connected to the parent that stewards
the sense of emotional regulation in them
but at the same time
we wanna be able to move our boys into a sense of
of real not power over
but power uh
with empowerment right true empowerment
I love that concept of power with
or empowerment versus power over
it's it's almost like
power over is an expression of weakness
whereas empowerment is
is an is a is an expression of strength
yeah I like that
yeah and I mean this
this bears out
look at it through the lens of emotional intelligence
the research around emotional intelligence
in the business world
I work a lot with executives and Ceos
and there's a lot of research that shows um
the higher up you get in an organization
the more important it is to be able to read
what's happening in the inner
landscape of other people
and in myself and then be able to articulate that
that's that's emotional intelligence
there is a tremendous amount of power in that
power to get things done to motivate people
to inspire people when I can really get a read
on my inner landscape that's really good information
if I have some concern or
you know something's arising in me
it's very good information
to be able to track that and articulate it
and then to be able to read that in other people
so this is where I say you know
this is like I'm a firm believer
that sensitivity and emotional intelligence
is a superpower you wanna be more powerful in the world
get clear about what's happening
in your inner landscape
and the same can be said for our children right
the more we teach them that
the more
ability they'll have to navigate the world skillfully
I would also argue that as
our culture becomes more modern
that those skills become even more important
they were less important 20 years ago
than they are today and 20 years from now
they will be even more important
and we
as men do not come out of the box with those skills
and so we need to build them
we need to work them yeah
not only do we not come out of the box
but it's actually
there's still this cultural pressure to uh
to damp them down
desensitize ourselves to our own emotional landscape
right um
the the Buddhist talk about this concept of one eye in
one eye out right
in meditation we have uh
one eye out in the world
where we're kind of observing the phenomenal
phenomenal world in front of us
whether we're like you know
watching the sunrise
or whatever it is that's happening out there
but then also having one eye in
to track our inner landscape
that is real power
to be able to have an eye in and an eye out
and that's a lot of what we teach around
um you know
in these rites of passage is cultivating that
that deep sense of um
of inner awareness
while also being able to navigate the world
I like that formulation as well
now we've talked a lot about the benefits of the
of the traditions of transitions and
and rights and that sort of thing
were there were there drawbacks
and are there drawbacks to those traditions
what are some of the pitfalls that arise from
from from doing those things in
in ancient times yeah
in ancient times and then more importantly in
if we were to adapt those traditions to modern times
what should we watch out for
yeah well
I mean obviously
some of the stuff now is completely unnecessary um
for the survival of the tribe like
you know there's
to go out and kill a lion or maybe be killed
totally unnecessary in the modern
right where
I mean I'm looking out at
the physical danger aspect is not as important
it's not as important but it was back then right
because there was a there was like a
there was even this sense of like
someone lost in an initiation
was an offering up to
the idea that the tribe and the community need initiate
needed initiation to survive uh
a a tribe LED by uninitiated men is very dangerous
in the eyes of the traditional cultures
and I think we see that today in our culture
we have a lot of boys
and male bodies running our culture
right that did not get proper initiation
and we see all the downstream impact
so in ancient times
it was much more of a survival mechanism
and they
they viewed that physical danger as an offering up um
I don't think we need that level of physical danger um
although we see some version of that in the military
right it's not entirely safe thing to go through
you know rigorous military training
and we want that we want our
you know
we want those that are defending our rights to be um
to be sharp right
um yeah and
and have no problem with that right
but in for all
all you know
those that aren't in a military path there's
there doesn't need to be that level of physical danger
but there better be discomfort right
and the whole one of the main ingredients of initiation
into sacred masculinity is discomfort
um it needs to snap us out of the creature
comforts of the modern world
and put us closer to um
our own edge and our own um
you know facing our own mortality
facing our own uh
part of us that would rather be sitting on the couch
if we want to be living a bold and audacious life
and we want that for our young men
uh my belief is it needs to be hard
it just maybe doesn't need to be life threatening
yeah I
now I wanna push on that part a little bit in a second
I really wanna drill down
into what those rites of passage
should be looking like today
and how to find them but
but before we get there
I'd love to talk about what happens when boys
grow up without the rights of passage
and we touched on it a moment ago you
you get boys walking around in men's bodies
but what happens when boys grow up without
these thresholds
yeah well
there's something
so one of the elements of initiation is mentorship and
and um
because you're moving in from one way of being
into the next
there needs to be someone that's guiding that process
and that largely does not exist currently
we're not
we don't have a lot of healthy male role models saying
this is what it means to be a good man in the world
right um
so that's part of the challenge is the app
the absence of that mentorship piece
then we have uh
this deep need for belonging as humans and
and no real construct to step into that
that is generative and life giving and protective
that these are the attributes of
you know of healthy masculinity um
so we look then we start seeing the erosion of that
and there's the
the sense of belonging overrides all other things and
and so without that healthy role modeling
these young men and boys
will start looking for belonging
in all the wrong places right
and um
then you combine that with screens
which is another you know
very challenging moment we're in culturally uh
the addictive nature of screens this the um
the way that it kind of distorts reality
and we end up with a recipe for um
some you know
what we're seeing which is like there's a
a real fundamental illness in the male psyche right now
in in the modern day and
and the opportunities to catch that illness
it seems are
because of screens and phones
and tablets and the internet
the opportunities to catch that illness
are so much wider and so much more varied
and so much less you know
if your kid walks in the door smelling like smoke
you know that he's smoking
and you can do something about it
if he's been getting indoctrinated online
with some crazy methodology
you may not have any way of knowing
yeah and
and for him he has found a sense of belonging
that he's not found in the real world
that hasn't been given to him right
so there's again that drive for belonging will do
you know we will do just about anything for that
yeah and so that's
so if we don't provide a healthy framework
then that a toxic framework will take its place or or
or you know
conflict entrepreneurs will come in and
and mine that and and it's
it's really our fault isn't it
well it's
it's it's one of the
it's when I I think when we
you know guys of our generation
I think we're probably about the same age um
we will I think we will look back
you know in 30
40 years when our time is up and we'll think this is
this happened on our watch right
the erosion of the sense of belonging
it's been happening for the last 50 years
but it really accelerated
with the introduction of technology
and smartphones in the way
you know and that's
that's happened on our watch
it's not a thing that you can just solve
on an individual level because uh
it's it's
you know when one kid in the community has it
it's kind of a race to the bottom
right about
because this need for social connection
overrides so many things
the drive to get then on a device for a young kid
and get on social media
and find all the ways to connect with
with people not in real life
but digitally it's truly is a race to the bottom
and that's happening on our watch
but that's an opportunity also
we can make it if we if we can be intentional about it
we can turn it into a race to the top
can't we absolutely
and there's so much amazing work happening around that
there's a
fantastic book that I highly recommend to just about
you know anybody that will read it
is The Anxious Generation by Jonathan Height
um it really lays out such a great book
yeah such a great book lays out two things
uh the addictive nature and
and all the distortions that happen developmentally
for young people
through the introduction of technology
and the need for independent mobility
and the ability to be free range
and roam freely
without the constant supervision of helicopter parents
right and I mean
this is like how do we do that in a
in a one weekend experience
a rite of passage we unplug people from their phones
we put them out in some some uh
on the edge and we connect them to some
to some role models maybe it's the father figure
maybe it's someone else
and we put them through an experience that says
you were this you were a young
you know you were a child
now you're a man you were a uh
you were you know
a younger person now you're an adolescent
you're on the path of becoming a man right
and that's so that's where I just
I feel like rites of passage is so important
because it really gets at the two ills of our time uh
for for young people
the lack of being able to roam freely
and the inundation of technology
now can you give me a sense of
your view of what healthy masculinity looks like
and how we can cultivate it in our boys
I think you've answered that second part
which is
these rights of passage at these two inflection points
but give me a sense of what that healthy
masculinity looks like when
when properly done yeah
I mean I'd love to
and I think everybody kind of
has their own instinctive sense of what this is
we kind of know
like when you bump into somebody or you think about
I don't know an uncle or a um
you know a teacher
you think like that was a good man
you know and
and maybe they didn't
they didn't necessarily even know what initiation was
but they were
they cared about something greater than themselves
so there's a focus on kind of a transpersonal mission
or a sense of um
caring about the community or those around them
um there's a sense of personal integrity
uh I talked about one
which is like power is connected to the heart um
rather than just like domination
yeah um
if we look at it at the very highest
like if we just go super kind of esoteric for a moment
you know
the masculine energies in the universe are those of
of emptiness and space it's like the cosmos
and then the feminine is like all of the form
it's the earth it's the
all the different animals
the creatures the hurricanes
the volcanoes right
that's you know
if you think of it cosmically
and these two dance it's the dance of
of form and emptiness light and um
and darkness right
and so you know
the mask masculine power is steady
it's patient it has a deep breath
it has a strong spine it has an open heart
and it gets things done
it can see what needs to happen and gets things done
this is beyond gender and sex right
the masculine in all of us
the feminine in all of us
the feminine in me is the emotional
it's the the thing that's ever changing
you know that's always in fluctuation
and um
so those are in my opinion
those are like core energies in in
in in the cosmos right
and so healthy masculinity is having that steadiness
that ability to see what needs to happen
that trustworthiness and um
for me that's what it means
I think everybody kind of has their own definition
but people know it when they see it right
it's kind of one of these things where
you know a good man when you see him
yeah right
I I think that the concept of masculine energy
and feminine energy in the universe
and also in ourselves is very
very important and I
I feel like it's a shame that
we have decided on terminology
that is so bound up with someone's gender
because it's almost like
the default is the Assumption that well
a man should just be full of masculine energy
and he should have no feminine energy
and a woman should have all feminine energy and and
and have no masculine energy
but of course
every individual has mixtures of both and
and even in various times
might exhibit or properly exhibit the certain energies
and
it's almost a shame that our terminology is so binary
in that way yeah
and I mean this again
this is as as boys we
we learn to squash the the emotional right
it's just not safe whether it's through
for me it was a lot of bullying and kind of
you know just
I grew up in kind of a rough place that had a lot of
that feminine was just not allowed in boys right
and I had the same experiences growing up
yeah and
and so what I've Learned over time is actually
not only is my power wrapped up in that
my ability my sensitivity
um but also kind of just some of my humanities in that
you know my ability to like enjoy a beautiful sunset or
you know the look in my lover's eyes or the
the you know
um a snuggle with my
with my children that
that is my feminine right
and um
so it is a great sorrow that
that there is this bifurcation and
you know to take it a step further
I mean it's no secret
the first time we say masculinity
when you hear the word masculinity
what's the first word that usually comes to mind
in the culture toxic
right and so we're
we're up against this battle of
masculinity has been given a bad name
and I think the the answer to
how do we heal toxic masculinity
isn't by squashing masculinity
it's by creating a new frame
for what healthy masculinity is
yeah
right and that
that includes the balance and
and really
revering and honoring the feminine in all of her forms
in the world and in my own heart
yeah I think that is so true
so let's get down to brass tacks
and talk about how I can create meaningful
threshold moments at home or
or I mean
is it a is it in daily life
or am I looking for specific milestones
in my child's development
is in an age
what do I need to do to create these meaningful
threshold moments yeah
what a great question so there's
there's several things we can do right the first is
um
you know around these inflection points
the major inflection points I've talked about
right like 10 to 14 and then 17 to 20
we can go out maybe with some other um
people in the community other fathers
other parents and create these experiences
where we get them out in the wild
um that's
that's like kind of one end of the
the spectrum then there's
if we dial that back
groups that do those sorts of things
or is this yeah
is this what the Boy Scouts are for
or what are what are the how
how do I find my my son's 10
how do I find a group of fathers
that is going out and setting up these
threshold events
well I have one myself called the Father
Son Connection experience
that we do this for for boys yeah
and we do we do a weekend retreat together
um and there are many others if you
you know
I'm happy to share other resources if people want them
they can can reach out to me um
if our program isn't quite right um
there are there are many
many pro and this is the thing right
this is part of the 200 year project
there are these
it's a growing movement to reintroduce these right
um so that's
you know and what I like about this idea is
it's not just held by the parents
there's a a community element
which is that's how initiation traditionally works
right is that it's
it's especially the older they get
it's not actually the parents that initiate them
it can't be because they're actually breaking free
but at that 10 to 14 it's about
cultivating a deeper connection
with the parental figure
in the presence of the rest of the
the community or in this case
we kind of do it you know
we do it as a group retreat right
um but throughout the year like
you know so one of the things I do with my children is
once a year I take them each on a backpacking trip
right and we go out
we unplug we go out into the wild
we um
spend a few nights under the stars
we jump in cold water we have
run into rattlesnakes and bears
and all the
crazy stuff that happens in the back country
and that
in and of itself is a tremendous rite of passage
right because we're not on screens
we're in the wild
we're connecting deeply with each other
and we're making memories
and um
you know I was
you know I do a lot of these types of interviews
and one of the things that's almost universal
when we start talking about unplugging and
like getting out snapping children out of the
the same rut out of their myopic view
you know it's like right
one of the roles I see as a father
is to expose our children to
different aspects of the world
right
to snap them out of their little reality and show them
this is the wider world right
anytime I talk about this
pretty much everybody
has some memory of a father figure doing that for them
whether it's a camping trip or a fishing trip
or a hike or some some
experience that's
like burned into their soul as a child themselves
about feeling more connected to their parent
and feeling connected to the vastness of creation right
so that is something we can do
even if it's car camping
even if you just go out for one Friday night
at a regional park and you go
you know jump in the water and do some fishing
like do that sit around the campfire
um and everybody can do that
then you keep you can keep dialing it back from there
the you know
the scouts are great and some of these
these groups that do it um
and then the other thing I'll say is it
it all hinges on the loving presence of the parent
right the
kids will do just about anything
to have that loving presence of their parents
so especially when they're younger
I used to do um
there's a
there's an organization called hand in Hand Parenting
and they have this this thing called Special Time
right that they think every kid should get
and this was such a game changer for us
um so it was
you set the timer for 10
15 minutes every day and it's just child LED play
you get on your hands and knees
and whatever they wanna do
you do it and you set the timer
that way it's not you ending it
the timer ends it and you just follow them
and you know
for kids that run a little hot
I've got one of those that's like
you know runs hot
he just came in on fire
wanting to kind of tear everything down
mine too special time is magical
because once there's
that connection that you were talking about
um
so much of the behavioral issues just get turned down
and it's it's following their own impulses
it's no screens it's whatever they wanna do
and getting them that daily dose of loving presence
especially from their father
it it solved a lot of other problems
let's just say and in it's
in a way it's
it's not a rite of passage
but it is establishing a bond that then is there
when things get harder when things
when there are challenges
when there are um
behavioral issues
when there are whatever social challenges
that bond is much stronger
right because there's been this baked into their soul
this loving presence from their parents right
so I'm just a huge proponent of this and
you know special time
that is such a great tactical piece of wisdom that
that daily special time is I'm I'm
I I'm very highly motivated to start doing that today
I yeah
let me know how it goes it's yeah
it will yeah
yeah I definitely will
and I I feel like
I feel like I have a good connection with my son
uh huh um
but I also feel like I've
I don't have a systematic way to forge it I
I haven't created a systematic way to forge it
and that is a good way to do that
yeah well
welcome to parenthood um
right there is
there is forever for me
there's forever a gap between the parent I am
and the parent I thought I would be and
and that delta for me
there's just so much information there about um
what I could be doing differently
and so I love your impulse to kind of like
create some structure around it
and because that's that's how I work too
it's like with the structure
with the daily rhythms it kind of concretizes
uh the parent I hoped I would have been
but I'm just here I'm also here
I'm also I think I'm a
I'm a few years ahead of you with the parenting thing
I'm here to tell you it never
it never goes
I've never found anyone that's closed that gap yet
if you have right amazing
congratulations but I haven't met it
you even meet people who seem like they have it
just absolutely nailed and then you corner them
and you find out what they're doing
and it turns out that they're just as
they're just as winging it as we are
yeah exactly
yeah no
this is I think it's a
it's a feature of parenthood
and for those of us that are committed to this path
of deep self awareness
um that in and of itself is one of
the greatest teachers is looking at that gap and um
you know so
we can either just kind of
blindly try to turn away from
where we feel like we're falling short
or we use that as information in all these other ways
and we become a better human
by really turning into the
you know the self judgment
I feel like this is one of our
one of the places where our culture has really done us
as men of a certain age a disservice
because it's almost like
recognizing the places where you haven't been perfect
is a bad thing
whereas it's the only way you're gonna grow
and so it's almost like you have to
you have to make that into a practice
you have to go seek out the places where
you have fallen short of the ideal
and embrace them rather than
and rather than considering that as a source of shame
you consider that as as an opportunity for growth
yeah right
absolutely man
and I would add I think
you know another
another wrinkle on this is
three of the most important words that we can say
as parents are
also it's I love you
but it's also I am sorry yeah
I am sorry like own our mistakes
we're not gonna be perfect
and if we expect our you know
if we need our children to look at us as perfect
uh we're
we're not only putting our a lot of pressure
on ourselves but we're doing them a disservice
because then they'll never learn how to repair
and how to how to heal after they mess up
which they will just like we mess up so
you know for me as a parent
I just you know
I I try to
you know I try to
I try to um
you know try to read my
especially the older they get
kind of read them into where I went wrong
and where my thinking was off
and what I wish I would have said differently
because I want them to be able to
you know own their own mistakes as well so yeah yeah
I I
it and you know if you
if you raise the level of abstraction to
what is the overall purpose of being a father
one component of that
one very important component of that is
make sure that the kid has the tools that you
had to build
right make sure that he's standing on the shoulders of
of giants not having to
having to climb that same ladder so that he can
he can exceed what you managed to do
yeah right
and and so and
and that the primary way to do that is
these things that were sort of beaten out of us
culturally
we need to give them healthy ways of expressing them
yeah yeah um
yeah and
and there's no doubt that we will mess up our children
haha they're gonna have
they're gonna
end up with their own shortcomings and shadows
because of the way we raise them that's
and that's part of them that's generating independence
they have to find the place
they have to cleave alpha the family
that's a healthy good thing exactly exactly
yep right
so the hope
but the hope is it's just incrementally better right
that we that we they're not need as you said
they they can live off they can build their life um
off of our mistakes and then go make their own mistakes
haha
so
so let me
give me a sense of
give me something that you feel that you've personally
done really well as a parent
hmm
yeah um
yeah
I hope that um
my both of my children
look back and appreciate
the connection they each have to the natural world
and to a sense of wonderment and awe and beauty
um
my belief is that feeling wonderment and awe is
is a choice the older we get right
like we can choose how we
what part of our mind
and what part of our soul and spirit we water and um
so I've really just dedicated myself
to getting them outside as much as possible
getting them off of screens
getting them connected to nature
getting their hands dirty
getting them you know um
traveling with them to different places in the world
to see different um
parts of the world the land
the ocean and the people um
so I hope that
that brings them a sense of magic in their life
I think it does I look at them
and I look at some of their friends
who are on their screens all the time
and there is a sense of like
there's just a little extra energy spring in their step
sparkle in their eye and my sense is that's
mostly
has to do with the amount of time they spend outside
yeah
and that's something I've been willing to fight for
with them to like
have boundaries around screens
and have boundaries around
and then you know
investing money and time to go to wild places
yeah yeah
it's not it doesn't happen by default
you have to make it you have to forge that path
don't you mm hmm yeah
what do you feel is something
as you look back over your journey
what do you wish you'd done better
hmm
um yeah
I think probably you know
for me it's always about um
you know my forever
my forever journey long before I had children
but then it gets exacerbated when we
when we have these little beings
that are so responsible for us
yes um
is my sense of of um rigidity
you know like I can be uh I
I joke around it's like my German DNA of like um
the sense of needing everything a certain way
and that's my way and
and um
kind of an inflexibility about me
and that's certainly something I've worked very hard on
kind of improving but I think
you know
the children are naturally chaotic and naturally um
impulsive and there's a great
they need some tempering and some structure
but I think for me I wish
especially early on
I would have been a little more flexible around that
yeah I
I have that same tendency
and I feel like the
rigidity comes from this place where you want to be
you wanna build something strong right
you want to make sure that you're resilient
and it feels
like being rigid is the only way to be resilient
and one of the unlocks for me
has been discovering the concept of antifragility
mm hmm
meaning that you have a system that when it breaks
it automatically repairs itself somehow
and that concept
if you can cultivate that concept instead of rigidity
rigidity is actually a problem
it's it's
it's under strain it can be brittle
it's strong until it's not
and then when it when it breaks
it fully breaks whereas
something that's antifragile
might break earlier than something that is rigid
but it tolerates the breakage more
and that's a way
more powerful way to go about your life
than trying to be rigid and inflexible
yeah especially with little
um you know
little tornadoes yes little
little volcanoes that are dependent on you for life
that's right um yeah
so the the I
I love that I love that antifragility
and just kind of flexibility and adaptability um
how much richer life is when we're
when we're living from that place
rather than kind of hanging on too tight
yeah all right
and I'm gonna put you on the spot with this one okay
and uh
and and I do this to everybody and I didn't uh
and I'm caveat
this with the fact that I did not warn you in advance
that I was gonna make you do this
but give me one
give me one principle that you either do
try to live your life by
or you wish you tried to live your life by
give me one good principle that I should adopt in
in my journey hmm okay
um I will yeah
I think one of my
one of my uh
most important principles is
silence is noble
meaning when I make peace with the stillness of my
that exists in my own mind
in the world around me
and I take time to cultivate a sense of
silence and stillness my whole life improves um
whether this is through meditation
or just not always needing to have
an answer for everything um
for everyone um
so for me it it cultivates
a deeper sense of listening and understanding
around the world in the world around me
the people around me
I also see more clearly what needs to happen in my life
there's like a strategic advantage
through the nobility of silence and um
and just the basic usefulness of making peace with it
um certainly made me a much better parent
being able to kind of slow down
take a breath
uh
and see what needs to happen next
or calm a child or protect them or whatever it is
um
yeah so for me it's
it's about that um
the principle there is just making
you know making
shaking friends with with stillness and silence
I think that is really really powerful
I I feel like a lot of times our reaction
especially in this day and age
is it's like you have to have a take on something
so somebody says something provocative and it's like
you have to have this instant take
and the fact is you don't
the vast majority of things don't need your comment
and are not going to be improved by your comment
and taking that beat and letting the silence
just kind of
cultivate a good response
yeah I'll
I'll butcher this quote but there's a
there's a quote that says something like um
if before I speak I reflect and ask myself
does this
what I'm about to say improve upon the silence
yeah right
that's it that's the perfect one
yeah yeah
yeah so
you know earlier we talked about some specific
uh tactical things that
that we can do as as parents to
to to install these
to cultivate the conditions under which these
transitions can occur
where these rites of passage can occur
and you mentioned three things
and I want to turn those three things into a challenge
for anybody who's listening
to this podcast I wanna turn them into a challenge
the first one of those things that I heard in Luke
feel free to to expand upon these or clear them up
the first things is that daily special time
and just to recap it's set the timer for 15 minutes
and just do whatever your son wants you to do
and it it can be
it can literally be anything
but the timer
creates the beginning and the ending of the situation
and it's just that special time
and what that does is create
it cultivates that connection with your son
that you will need when things get hard
the second one is
is joining a group and and
and Luke your group
refresh my memory on what your group is called
the Father Son connection experience
so it's Father Son connection.com
so Father Son connection.com
or something along those lines
is a really powerful way to
get together with like minded parents
and people who are trying
to cultivate this 200 year plan around
getting us back to a place where we are creating
good men and then the last thing is you
you mentioned Luke that you do an annual camping trip
and I might
I might think about abstracting that out a little bit
it's almost like you're doing an annual
father son challenge of some sort you're
you're enduring together something
and it's something you can look forward to
and it's something that is gonna happen
uh every year and you and you make that happen
is that yeah yeah
absolutely and and yeah yeah
that's a great characterization couple other elements
it's it's away from screens
so all of these are away from screens
including the special times screens aren't included
but yeah away from screens and it's just
it's something in the natural world
so it could be it doesn't need to be camping
it could be yeah
surfing together for a weekend or a day or it could be
you know um fishing
whatever it is it's outside
it's in the wild and then I'll I'll um
I'll add a fourth element to this a a fourth step here
which is what I do with both my children
I say I ask both of them
what's one thing you would need from me this year
so that you feel connected to me
and I let them tell me and I try to reach that
and so for my son every year
literally every year since he's been 8
he said I need a backpacking trip with you um
and my daughter it's different it's
it's different every year um
this year it's actually a backpacking trip
which I'm pretty excited about because wow
that's great yeah
but she's never asked for that before um
so that's the
fourth thing to do is to actually go to them and say
and it's all about the connection
it's like it's back to that loving presence
that they'll do just about anything to get right yeah
it's about
what do you need for me to feel connected to me
this year
it's so fascinating that
I don't think it's ever occurred to me to ask that
and yet it's a central focus of my role as a parent
I I consider it to be my
a central focus as my role to a parent
but how am I supposed to know what's gonna work
if I don't ask my son
hmm yeah
and it it
you're it blows my mind that yeah
that that's such a simple concept
and yet it hasn't occurred to me to do it
yeah and just trusting them that they know
they have an impulse there
you may need a little bit of negotiating and
and you know
kind of massaging but you
the need beneath the whatever they're presenting
it will be very clear right
um so let me know how that goes
I'll be I will definitely do that
I will I will get back to you on how
all three of those things go okay
great for me and I will
I will accept the challenge and I
I invite anybody listening to this to do the same
um
again my
my Luke I can't tell you how much I appreciate uh
you taking the time to walk me through this journey
I think this is such a powerful thing
and I think that uh
that that it is so good to talk to a fellow traveler
especially someone who's so much farther down the road
I am in trying to cultivate this healthy masculinity
and this healthy
these rights of passage and that sort of thing
I really appreciate you taking the time today
oh it's been a pleasure
what a great conversation
and yeah really cheering you on for this endeavor
really excited about what you're doing with this show
thanks a ton