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We educate investors and potential investors on the in's and out's of investing in rental property. We focus on residential and multifamily investing, but include commerical, storage, mobile home parks, and more. We interview industry experts on tax strategies, property management, vendor selection, syndications, capex, and more.
Hey, investors. Welcome to the retire on rentals podcast. I'm your host, Nicholas Cook. And in this show, we explore how to optimize real estate investing, create passive income, discuss operational tactics, and ways you and your family can retire on rental income. If you wanna invest in real estate or currently do, then this podcast is for you.
Nicholas Cook:Alright. Today, we're here with Matt Williams, Williams who is a broker and owner of Bison Properties. But today, we're actually gonna be talking to him about his journey into investing in manufactured housing, which is kind of a different turn from real property to personal property with a mixture of real property. Property. Matt, super excited to have you on.
Nicholas Cook:Obviously, we go way back. We've known each other for a long time. We've had a podcast together as well before, Invest in the West. And, you know, I've just been wanting to pick your brain about this because it's kind of a unique asset class And it's an asset class that's obviously got more traction, I think, over the last decade especially. But thanks for being with us.
Matthew Williams:Yeah. Nick, thanks very much for having me. I appreciate it. To your point, it's quite a journey. It's very different.
Matthew Williams:But it's like anything else, it's an asset class that maybe some people have some trepidation or there's some type of stigma associated with it. But once you dig into it, it's like anything else, once you know it, you know it.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah, definitely. Well, I think everything comes back to some origin stories. People want to know how did you get your foot in the door on this. So maybe you could just talk a little bit about how this landed on your radar in the first place, and you went from really specializing, obviously, in more traditional real estate forms to thinking, hey, maybe I wanna get into this manufactured housing business.
Matthew Williams:Yeah, sure. I mean, really, I started in real estate a long time ago and I've really just always done real estate, but at different levels. So really kind of important to know is that there are so many elements of real estate. When people say, Hey, what do you do for a living? Oh, I'm in real estate.
Matthew Williams:That's pretty broad, and there are so many aspects of Like
Nicholas Cook:I'm in business.
Matthew Williams:Yeah, exactly. What do you do? Construction. Oh, general contractor, very general. So basically, I started selling primary houses, single family homes in 2001 and sold a ton of those.
Matthew Williams:When the market crashed in 08/09, it became a situation where some of my clients who were flippers would have you know, three houses going, and then they couldn't sell them. And so I started managing some of those assets for them, started a management company, which is kinda how we met. Yeah. And then as the market continued to go, I kind of figured, hey, I'm looking at these spreadsheets, and I'm doing all the work and taking on the liability and the actual investors making the money. So that's kind of interesting.
Matthew Williams:So I really just started studying the highest and best use of my skill set and which asset classes accomplished my goal and started doing some analysis on what my goal was. For me, it's cash flow. Some people, it's return. Some people, it's tax deductions. Everyone has a different reason to invest in in different ways.
Matthew Williams:And, you know, my skill set was in management and conversion of assets, stabilization of assets. Mhmm. And so I started looking around. I found a couple manufactured homes and then started looking at some parks, obviously, being on the real estate side. And really in 2016, I I bought my first my first park, and it's it's quite an interesting path from there because now I'm I'm up to four parks and they're all very, very different.
Matthew Williams:They're all in different areas and the stabilization aspect of it is kinda what I focused on, but that's not everybody's path in that space.
Nicholas Cook:Got it. Got it. Well so I mean, not to age you, but you've been in real estate for twenty five years. You don't look like you could be in real estate twenty five years, so kudos on that.
Matthew Williams:Thank you. I appreciate it. You know, I use a lot of facial moisturizer, get a little bit of sun, a little bit of golf, and that really helps keep me young.
Nicholas Cook:People might wanna know about the moisturizer routine. But no, that's great. And I mean, you know, I think one of the things that keeps people from getting into new areas of expertise is, you know, one is, you know, some anxiety around the lack of familiarity, but a lot of that comes down to questioning themselves about whether or not they can actually underwrite the property properly. So how do you learn to underwrite your first deal and do the due diligence, which is not your traditional property inspection. You've got a lot of different things going on in terms of, like, utilities and just stuff.
Nicholas Cook:So how how did that process unfold?
Matthew Williams:Yeah. You know, that's a really interesting question because the underwriting part of it, just for clarification, you know, when I think of underwriting, I'm thinking of how a bank is gonna analyze that asset and how I'm gonna look at the potential return or potential liability associated with that from a financial perspective. So when I'm looking at a house, for instance, I'm looking at income expenses, and then that income is rent, the expenses are gonna be maintenance, including insurance and property taxes and that kind of thing. The maintenance on that is really going to be specific to the house. Whereas when you buy, to be clear, they used to be called mobile home parks, now they're called manufactured housing communities.
Nicholas Cook:Oh, they're all under the same title.
Matthew Williams:Oh, yes. But they're also, people say RV park, other people say mobile home parks, some people say manufactured housing. The important part of that is really if you're looking at long term or short term, because that's gonna be something that you're gonna be looking at as far as how much income and how often. What's your vacancy rate over the course of a year? Is it a seasonal short term stay?
Matthew Williams:Is it long term stay? And in Oregon, for instance, their manufactured home park is always allowed to have RVs under Oregon statute, which is kinda interesting. So basically, a local municipality can't take my manufactured housing community and say I cannot accept RVs as long as I'm signing long term leases in Oregon. That's not the case in every state. But when I'm looking at it from an underwriting perspective, I and I'm looking at maintenance, I'm not just looking at how much does it cost me to put housing or siding on that house.
Matthew Williams:I'm thinking more, what's the infrastructure? How old is the infrastructure? Is it on city services, or is there a septic system? Is there a well? How old are those lines?
Matthew Williams:So really the infrastructure itself is something that you have to take into consideration. From a bank's perspective, they're not looking at how much rent can you possibly squeeze out of that property. They're looking at if all of the personal property was gone, in other words, if all of the houses were gone, and let's say they burned down or everyone just decided to move out and take their house, what is the space rent associated with that? And that's the way the bank looks at the the potential income coming in because they're not loaning any money on the actual houses themselves. Those are considered personal property.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. So it's almost like you would maybe price and again, I don't have any experience in this, but maybe like a marina, like, how much of the value of those slips for your boats? Right? Is that kind of a similar idea?
Matthew Williams:Yeah. That's exactly right. So, you know, I'm working on financing on a on a couple of them right now. And essentially, the way they look at it is regardless of the number of units that the owner owns, like, let's say that I own a 20 unit property. Well, I'll just give you the example.
Matthew Williams:I've got a 20 unit manufactured housing community. Mhmm. And I own five of the houses that are at that park, okay, I'm getting about $1,800 per month for each of those houses. Okay. The space rent is 18 or I'm sorry, is $850.
Matthew Williams:So the bank will come in and say, okay, regardless of how much you're getting for the houses, we're only gonna loan you money based on $850 per space times 20 spaces.
Nicholas Cook:Got it.
Matthew Williams:Okay. So even though my P and L is gonna show that I'm bringing in much more income, an extra $5,000 per month, the bank won't count that, and they're gonna really look at the debt service coverage ratio on that.
Nicholas Cook:Got it. And and when they're looking at that debt service coverage ratio, what does that typically look like in in that industry? I know in multi family it's, you know, 1.2, 1.25 typically. What do you typically see in that space?
Matthew Williams:Yeah, mean, to dig into the numbers, the formula that I usually use is you take the total income, manufactured home parks usually run at about a 30% expense ratio, and a 5% vacancy rate is usually what banks will underwrite. And so we go with basically 5% vacancy, 30% expense ratio, and then you have to hit that 1.2 to 1.25 debt service coverage.
Nicholas Cook:Got
Matthew Williams:it. And I will say that that is the variable that I saw change as economy kind of shifted, interest rates went up. The debt service coverage ratio that the banks were using went up because the higher the risk they feel it is, they wanna see more income coming from those parks. So I did see that shift. I was at about a 1.1
Nicholas Cook:Oh, wow.
Matthew Williams:When I bought my first park. And when I went into finance one just a couple years ago, or last year, they're looking at 1.25. So it's a significant That
Nicholas Cook:plus interest rate is moving. Sure.
Matthew Williams:Well, the interest rate is really what's going to impact that because they're looking at your debt service coverage. So the higher the interest rate, regardless if it's 1.2 or 1.25, you're gonna have to make more money on that park to cover that expense. Yeah. It's tricky.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. It's interesting. And so so the first deal you took down in in the manufactured housing space, Where was that? Was that in your backyard? Was that in Oregon?
Nicholas Cook:Another state? I know you're in a couple different places. And then was that something that you decided to go just venture out on your own? Did you bring in investors? Or how did you decide to kind of approach that first deal?
Matthew Williams:Yeah. Good question. So one of the things that I'll I'll say about any time you move into a new space, whether it be going from a single family home to a duplex or a fourplex into an apartment building or an apartment building in a commercial or land banking or whatever, there's always some hesitation, and I think that that's totally normal. It's hard to learn only from podcasts, only from reading. You've really got to dig in and do, And at some point, you just have to jump off and figure it out, right?
Matthew Williams:So one of the best things I could give as advice is find a great team. I mean, yes, you can only listen to so many things, but if you have a trusted team, a good property manager, a good broker, a good real estate attorney, good title company to help you with those due diligence pieces in that process, I think that's totally critical. So in being in real estate already, owning a management company, understanding title and processes and due diligence, that was a huge positive for me. I felt comfortable jumping in and doing. With that being said, at that time, I did not feel comfortable taking on anyone else's money to do it because that's always risky, and I'd rather lose my own money
Nicholas Cook:Yeah.
Matthew Williams:Than a client or friends. Right?
Nicholas Cook:Correct.
Matthew Williams:So the first one that we bought, I looked at entry level and in manufactured home space. You really don't want a manufactured home community that's any less than 10 units. It's really hard to make those numbers work. It's a lot of liability for running systems for 10 or fewer units.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah.
Matthew Williams:So somewhere between 10 and about a 120 units is a good space for you to be looking in because the institutional investors aren't looking at anything under about 150, 120. So you eliminate some of that competition. And then you can really get into some pretty good price points between 10 and 75 to 100 units to keep it really navigable. And it's also not a significant challenge to unload because you have a larger pool of potential investors if you were like, hey, this is not my asset type. I don't want to deal with this.
Matthew Williams:So the first one I bought was $550,000 for 20 spaces. It was in my backyard out in the gorge. I was living in Portland at the time, and my wife and I love the gorge, and it's just a great space, and we ended up in Cascade Locks. So we bought a 20 unit park out there, and it Cool. It, at the time, was a disaster.
Matthew Williams:So when I say stabilization, I look for parks that are undermanaged. Quite often, they've been neglected from a maintenance perspective, and they they need some work in stabilization. So I look to come in and stabilize the community, create a clean, healthy, safe environment for the tenants that are there. Sometimes that can be a little bit of a challenge, and People like any
Nicholas Cook:are complicated.
Matthew Williams:Imagine that. The closer people live, the more challenging that can be. And some of those bedroom communities, you know, that they don't have a strong workforce or a lot of industry specific. Yeah. And that can be a little bit tricky.
Matthew Williams:But those are those are really some niche areas where those manufactured communities are are still thriving.
Nicholas Cook:Cool. Yeah. So, I mean, one, obviously, you know, tip of the hat for jumping in with both feet onto a new thing. It's always good to see people put things into action. At what point in your kind of experience investing in, you know, mobile home parks did you really recognize like, there's a real opportunity here.
Nicholas Cook:I wanna do more of this. Like, was there a tipping point? Was it the first deal, the second deal? Like, how did you assess, yeah, this I'm I'm kinda all in on this asset class, I wanna continue to pursue it because you clearly have.
Matthew Williams:Yeah. I mean, the I think prior to my first park, I knew just when looking at the numbers and studying, my goal is cash flow. Mhmm. The other part of it too in long term stability, if you look at the asset type, you have pretty low overhead because you're not maintaining anything except the systems. So my thought process from the beginning was if I can go in and update a system that's going to last fifteen to twenty years, and it's primarily underground, water, sewer, electric lines, garbage, that kind of thing, you you can kind of get the systems in place there and then bring in good tenants with proper management and screening.
Matthew Williams:It really created an environment where it I could create something that was turnkey and cash flow. And with that being my focus, I knew from the beginning that if I could make it work and figure it out with probably a couple hard lessons on the first park or two, that I could grow that portfolio and really look for something that was big. The other element of it that was really speaking to me was that it you know, manufactured housing communities really are a low cost leader. They are affordable housing. They create something that is an affordable space regardless of economic shift.
Matthew Williams:And this year, last few years have been a good trial of that. Because as the economy, inflation was high, expenses were high, people were concerned about the economy, stock market was a little bit tricky. Sure. A lot of political strife and people battling back and forth. And really, I've not seen a lot of movement there.
Matthew Williams:When someone would move out, a new person would move in pretty quickly. I didn't hit high vacancy rates. I didn't have a lot of defaults. Really, it's it it is the lowest cost opportunity for someone who values housing in a clean, healthy, safe environment. And there was a little bit of a test to that, and I really believe in being able to provide that.
Matthew Williams:You're never going to be the high rise penthouse. I mean, those aren't the people I'm trying to attract.
Nicholas Cook:Sure, yeah.
Matthew Williams:But I mean, that's that's been something I really have wanted to to focus on. Mhmm. You know, if I can get in, do a lot of work in the up on the the onset, and then have that thing cash flow and just kinda let it let it roll, I think that's really has been my focus.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. That makes sense. I mean, know the cap rates for that asset class are higher than what you see in multifamily, so that makes it attractive. You know, so obviously if cash flow is kind of your your aim, then that's a good way to go. You know, one of the things that's interesting is, you know, obviously you've got experience in management.
Nicholas Cook:You've got a management company. But you moved out of Oregon. Right? And you've also purchased manufactured housing parks, in places that you don't live. You know, a lot of times in traditional property management around multifamily and single family, you've gotta have some sort of critical mass to make the numbers work.
Nicholas Cook:Right? If you're man managing five houses, it's about the same level of difficulty to manage, you know, or amount of infrastructure you need is probably the same you need to manage 25. And if you manage 25, you kinda need the same to manage 50 and so forth. Obviously, when you're starting out in manufactured housing, you know, your rents on average are lower. And so getting to a point, like, I guess the question is is, you know, how are you able to operate these parks presumably without on-site staff being being remote?
Nicholas Cook:What are some of the challenges you face, and I guess what are some of the surprises you've encountered with that?
Matthew Williams:So that's a really, really good question, and actually that's an issue that comes up when dealing with clients. Because being in this space and speaking with clients, when I'm analyzing some assets as they do a ten thirty one exchange, they're looking into new properties, they're doing trade ups, they always ask me, oh, well, what do you do? What would you do? And I say, well, I mean, this isn't really my asset type.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah.
Matthew Williams:This is kind of my niche over here, which is oftentimes really interesting to my clients because they're like, oh, wait. Well, tell me more about that. So then I find myself looking for parks for some of my clients, you know? Sure. But when they asked me about the management piece, that is a little bit tricky because a lot of manufactured housing communities are in the outskirts in adjacent towns.
Matthew Williams:They're not in core metropolitan Yeah. And that's not by design initially, but local municipalities and cities do not want manufactured housing,
Nicholas Cook:Kind of ironic given the messaging they have around affordability.
Matthew Williams:I would definitely agree with that. You know, the other cool thing about those asset types is that it really gives the tenant a lot of opportunity to build pride in a property that they own. They don't own the real land, but they actually own the house, and they take pride in that. They can paint it when they want, they can decorate it, they can come and go. They feel good about that.
Nicholas Cook:It's like a condo. You don't own the walls or the ceiling or the Yeah.
Matthew Williams:Absolutely. Well, from a management perspective, that's tricky because in some of those smaller communities, there's not a really great manager. And because there might be in a small town, let's say six mobile home parks or manufactured housing communities, there's not a property manager that really understands that asset type. Mhmm. Yeah.
Matthew Williams:What I also tell my clients is you always kinda have to manage your manager because a property manager, no offense, Nick Yeah. Doesn't manage the property and the asset the way that you would as the owner.
Nicholas Cook:You're absolutely right. And I I actually tell people that, you know. It just it's not possible because you have to make decisions differently at scale and from a regulatory standpoint and just feasibility. Right? And cost.
Nicholas Cook:Right? It's it's you're totally right. So
Matthew Williams:Well, and you're not gonna run down and fix a faucet real quick. You're gonna call someone that specializes in that, and that's gonna come with a fee. You're gonna hire a license, bonded, insured contractor, whereas for me, if I've got a guy coming to trim my trees, I might go with John up the street who's got a truck and I've seen him and his
Nicholas Cook:A chainsaw.
Matthew Williams:Hopefully a chainsaw.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah.
Matthew Williams:But I mean, that's a different scenario. So I personally, I have it set up a little bit differently. I manage the financials and the entity. I have an on-site at every park.
Nicholas Cook:Wow.
Matthew Williams:Because I think in this asset type, you have to have an on-site that just knows, hey, that guy's not supposed to be here, or there's a leak over here. And some of that is weather related, and some of it is demographic related. You get some interesting characters coming through some of those parks sometimes, and if you have someone that has a vested interest in the security of the park, they're great to be like, hey, Matt, we got somebody coming over Unit Number 13, that's not working out real well. And then, I mean, once I'm alerted, I can handle the issue.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah.
Matthew Williams:If I'm if I'm not there for three weeks and for three weeks that guy's been there, that's a problem.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. I mean, it's, you know, it's actually very similar in multifamily, right? We talk a lot to people about the culture of the building. And maybe not in the traditional sense of what people think about in terms of culture. What we think about is culture is culture of compliance.
Nicholas Cook:Right? Like do these people follow the rules? You know, are they like, you know, violating them every turn they get a chance to? And know, rule compliance is important because obviously the people who do follow the rules don't wanna be around people who don't follow the rules, which means you're gonna drive the rule followers out if you don't hold people accountable. Right?
Nicholas Cook:You're gonna lose your a players if you let the b and c players, you know, kinda run amok. So that's that's similar, and I can imagine that. So my thought though is how do you afford that on these smaller buildings? I mean, it just built into your pro form a? Do they get, like mean, I I guess, how are you having that all set up?
Matthew Williams:Yeah. So that's the other thing. If you think about the level of expectation that individuals have, like let's say, if you're paying $2,500 a month in rent on an apartment, the expectation for you to manage some asset or be the eyes on the ground, the compensation level for that or expectation might be fairly high. Let's say a half month's rent that costs you $12.50 dollars a month if it's $2,500 Sure. But if someone's paying $425 a month in rent, even if you comp them the entire month's rent, for them, they say, oh my gosh, I've got 100% free rent.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah.
Matthew Williams:And you're thinking, oh my gosh, $450
Nicholas Cook:Yeah.
Matthew Williams:Right? So from that perspective, I think the value is certainly there. Even if you comped a couple $100 or full month's rent, my most expensive park right now is $900 a month for a space.
Nicholas Cook:Got it.
Matthew Williams:Worst case scenario for an on-site just to clue me in and then I have someone go handle it, worst case, it'd be $900 that said, I have a larger park, the most recent one that I purchased over the coast, it's the furthest away from me. I've got a lot of expansion over there. I have more move in and move outs because it is long term. But because I'm at currently, I'm at 92 units on it, that's gonna take a little more sophistication, but I've got a lot of trees. It's got a sewer.
Matthew Williams:I actually have a sewage treatment plant on that property registered with DEQ, it's like a thing.
Nicholas Cook:It's a whole thing.
Matthew Williams:It is a thing. That takes a lot more sophistication, so those managers cost me a salary plus housing. Yeah. I mean
Nicholas Cook:At that level it's
Matthew Williams:different. To your point, put it in the pro form
Nicholas Cook:a.
Matthew Williams:Just like you put vacancy in the pro form a, you gotta put management in there as well, and the on-site is certainly something to plug in there.
Nicholas Cook:Got
Matthew Williams:it. But selecting a good on-site manager, that's tricky too, Because I've got on at one of my parks, I've got a gal that's great at paperwork and posting notices. She's not mowing the lawn. She's not fixing a plumbing leak. Yeah.
Matthew Williams:On another one, I've got a great guy that can fix anything and mow the lawns and chase off the bad guy as they come in. He's good at that. He is not pulling anything up off a computer and printing anything. So, you know, it it it comes with a mix. I've got kind of a hybrid.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. The vets, you know, again, I I think we see that similar, you know, divergence in in multifamily too. Like, you know, you have an on-site that's gonna be great at leasing and, you know, making people feel welcome and paperwork or they're gonna be able to help you with the turns. Right? And making sure the community rules aren't being handled from a maintenance standpoint and so forth.
Nicholas Cook:But, yeah, they're different personalities. They're just completely different personalities. Sometimes you get somebody who does both great, but that's definitely more more rare. So, you know, you bought your first park in Oregon. Right?
Nicholas Cook:Kind of in your backyard, you know. Then the next one you bought was in a place that you didn't live nearby. Correct?
Matthew Williams:Correct.
Nicholas Cook:So I've got two questions about this. Okay. Number one, that's a big jump from, hey, I can drive there in forty five, sixty minutes to I can fly there, maybe drive there. But also, you know, you're trying to underwrite a completely different market. Right?
Nicholas Cook:So it's like, how did you even come across that? How did you underwrite that? Like, you know, get up to speed on those things.
Matthew Williams:Yeah. So that's a good question too. Let me just start by saying I haven't none of my parks have been on market. Door knocked, heard about them, put feelers out, that kind of thing.
Nicholas Cook:Shaking the trees.
Matthew Williams:That's right. Which has worked out really well. And that's not to say I wouldn't buy something on market. I'm just, in general, that's the way it's worked out for me. I don't mind being out and kinda looking around.
Matthew Williams:So the first one I bought, as mentioned, is in Oregon. The second one I bought is in Wyoming in a town called Evanston, which is just outside of Salt Lake City. So to your point, it's a couple hour flight and then an hour drive
Nicholas Cook:Yeah.
Matthew Williams:If I'm going into Salt Lake.
Nicholas Cook:Sure.
Matthew Williams:So for me, I found that because I knew somebody who was buying a house. My dad was buying a house there. And so I went out to help him look around, and so I just went in and started talking to agents and said, hey, where are the mobile home parks? I literally was just asking, who owns the mobile home parks around here? I just wanna see what what the dynamic is.
Matthew Williams:And I started looking at the market, and I figured out there were four parks in town. One of them was almost completely vacant, huge, but completely vacant. I think that they had like 200 spaces and they had like 19 occupied. I was like, uh-oh.
Nicholas Cook:Woah.
Matthew Williams:Yeah. Was And it was it set outside a little bit, and then there was another one in town that was needed a little bit of work, but had, you know, paved roads and whatnot. And then I found this other one, and I talked to the agent and I said, Well, how about this one that it's kind of centrally located, it's up on the hill? And she said, Oh yeah, I don't know. I mean, I've known them from high school, some by a couple sisters, one of them is in prison for meth distribution or something.
Matthew Williams:And I said, oh, that's the one I wanna talk to. So I ended up talking to the other sister that was not in prison Yeah. And negotiated a deal. I basically went and looked at the property, and I looked at the numbers. I mean, I I basically saw that it was being undermanaged, and they were renting to people that shouldn't be there.
Matthew Williams:And so I just saw the opportunity there.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. What was the vacancy rate? Did you say it was like 90% vacant?
Matthew Williams:Well, on that on the other one. On this one
Nicholas Cook:Okay.
Matthew Williams:See, this one was 36 spaces, and it had probably 10 vacancies.
Nicholas Cook:Okay. So still a third. Yeah.
Matthew Williams:Yeah. And to be honest, they still had dilapidated properties on-site, but they didn't have like, they just didn't have real true management. Know? One of the sisters was kinda pseudo managing it. This property had been in the family for a while.
Matthew Williams:You know, with that being said, I got a great deal on it. I paid $600,000 for this 36 unit space Yeah. On 12 acres, and then I got the adjacent 24 acres with it.
Nicholas Cook:Oh.
Matthew Williams:And in addition to that
Nicholas Cook:Was it a different seller or is it the same same thing?
Matthew Williams:So interestingly, seller that when the title report came back, I noticed that the adjacent 24 acres was for sale or was owned by the same person. And so I just went back to the seller and I said, hey. I realized that, you know, the adjacent 24 acres, I was kinda thinking I would pick up both of them. Yeah. And she said, okay.
Matthew Williams:And gave it to me for no additional price, which was kinda crazy. At any rate, so I went in there and started working. One of the things that came up in that scenario, which is which brings up this due diligence package or or kinda thinking, I've got a $250,000 sewer project going on that because it I'm managing a private sewer system that feeds into the into the city main.
Nicholas Cook:Wow.
Matthew Williams:So when something like that goes down, I mean, you're not writing a check for $5,000. You're you're putting together a a huge project
Nicholas Cook:A where huge replace CapEx. Yeah. Correct.
Matthew Williams:Yeah.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. Well, that's intense. So, you know, in these situations, are you finding that most of the time you're basically coming in with conventional financing? Are you getting any sellers to carry back paper or anything like that? Or what has your experience been with that?
Matthew Williams:That's a good question. I I have not had a seller carry on any of mine. Most parties that I've purchased from, they wanna be done with the asset. With that being said, I will say that the space that I'm in, the timing is right to for them to unload these assets and for you to take them over for a couple reasons. Many parks, most parks, were built sixties through eighties.
Matthew Williams:In the nineties, there were a couple and then nothing for a little while. And so there's that infrastructure is x old. They're also oftentimes built by the owner where they lived in the park, they raised their kids in the park, and they're aging out. So they kinda stopped managing them because they don't need the money, so they have an increased rents. They aren't as mobile and sharp, so they're not visiting the property as much, and they are kind of penny pincers, so they didn't want to spend money on a plumber to go handle stuff.
Nicholas Cook:So
Matthew Williams:you have aging infrastructure, aging owner, and the child oftentimes is living their own life. They don't want anything to do with the park that they were raised in. Yeah. So there's this kind of interesting niche when you're coming in to to look at these. So the owners kind of went out or it's the kids selling it and just saying, I just wanna be done and settle all the affairs.
Matthew Williams:So that is an interesting aspect of these parks. The other part of it too is that because it's a specific type of product, you either have to convince the bank that this is a stable asset or that you are a stable purchaser and have the ability functionally to put into the property and stabilize it. Or you have to either under leverage or come in and explain to them, hey, this is what I intend to do with the property, I'm willing to have a banking relationship with you. And that has been kind of cool because I've gotten to know and understand it's not usually Chase Bank, B of A, US Bank.
Nicholas Cook:Community banks.
Matthew Williams:These are community banks that want to put it into their community. The money oftentimes credit unions, know, because they have a specific amount of money that has to go back into their immediate community. And so they pull that out of the pool and they'll help you out quite a bit with So that's been great because it's relational. Yeah. Really is relational.
Nicholas Cook:So I've got a lot more questions. I know we're kind of limited on time, but we're gonna take a quick break, and then we'll be right back. Alright?
Matthew Williams:Alright.
Nicholas Cook:This show is sponsored by Sleep Sound Property Management, one of Portland's largest and top rated management companies that specializes in multifamily and residential real estate. They can help you acquire, operate, protect, and sell or exchange your properties. If you want to invest in real estate, give them a call or visit them online at sleepsoundpm.com. That's sleepsoundpm.com. Alright.
Nicholas Cook:We're back. Matt again, thanks for being here. One of the things that you mentioned a moment ago that I actually wanted to circle back to is you're talking about this large CapEx, capital expenditure project with the sewer and things like that. And you also mentioned in, you know, the largest park you bought, you've got, you know, water treatment facility. You know, the thing that comes to mind for me is like, okay, a lot of these, as you mentioned, are properties that are in rural areas.
Nicholas Cook:So where are you finding vendors to, like who have the level of sophistication to deal with those kind of things? Like, that's not a small project. You know? That's that's a real, like, mechanical system that requires a lot of expertise. Are you flying people in?
Nicholas Cook:Like, how how does that work?
Matthew Williams:So really good question. You're right. On the rural side, one of the the maintenance is a pretty big issue. You know? In Cascade Locks, for instance, the closest spot that you've got is Troutdale, really.
Matthew Williams:Mean, you have Hood River on the other side, but that's also a small community. Troutdale is about twenty, thirty minutes away from the edge once you hit the freeway. And to get a plumber out, you're gonna pay a trip fee plus the plumbing, and then they're there to handle business and get out. So you don't have the same guy usually that's coming and going. In my park in Evanston, Wyoming, you know, those guys, to be honest, many of the tenants could fix anything.
Matthew Williams:So it's it's a completely different dynamic. Sure. But the vendors are really, really a critical part, and the one of the first things I do when I purchase a part is start building a vendor list, and those vendors oftentimes are word-of-mouth, and that is really a significant benefit of an on-site as well because those are the people going to church in town. They're sending their kids to school in town. They're going to work in town, so they know who the plumber is.
Matthew Williams:They know who the electrician is.
Nicholas Cook:That's
Matthew Williams:great. And so that's worked out really well. And I kinda put a little bit of onus on them, not ownership, but I I tell them, hey. Why don't we build a vendor list of people you like working with? And I'll obviously be looking at the price and and the product.
Matthew Williams:They're looking at, hey. Do they respond when I call? Do they are they, you know, kind and, easy to work with? Right? So I kind of build that with the on-site a little bit.
Matthew Williams:Yeah. And landscaping, for instance, I sold a park to a client in The Dalles, and he can't find someone in The Dalles on the landscaping side just to keep the place clean. And so the vendor list is a really challenging piece for the sewage treatment plant and whatnot. That is something that is such an area of like a specialty that we have worked with DEQ and the state of Oregon to make sure that number one, get it up to par. And then number two, who is the person to maintain it?
Matthew Williams:Like our water system there has a ton of testing and chemicals and process that goes through that. And really, one other thing I'll mention is that in the first year or two, you're gonna figure out what that P and L that you receive from the seller really is.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah.
Matthew Williams:And so that's kind of an interesting scenario because I looked at the amount of electricity that goes into that park. When I bought the park over at the coast in North Bend, basically, was 71 spaces, RV primarily, a few manufactured homes, all long term on 30 acres with a sewer treatment plant and our own water source. There is water out at the street, but we weren't connected. And we were putting money into chemicals and all that kind of stuff for the water. Yeah.
Matthew Williams:Then the sewage treatment plant, there is no way to hook up to sewer. So we are stuck with that sewage system that we have or the sewage treatment plant. So I looked at it, and essentially, at the end of the year, I was I paid $18,200 in water testing, chemicals, and all of the stuff that goes into just providing water. So now I'm balancing that with, okay, well, what would it cost me to not have to deal with that if the city is connected?
Nicholas Cook:Sure.
Matthew Williams:Right? And then on the electricity, which is not being billed back to the residents, I spent $40,000 in electricity to the tenants. Wow. So in not billing it back, you know, if you have an all inclusive rent, you have to look So at that. I'm at $60,000 in those two utilities, not counting my sewer.
Matthew Williams:And so I had to do a cost analysis on that. So this year, we hooked up to city water. It costs about $46,000 Well, with plumbing, I would have about $52,000 to hook up to the city water. Takes away some of the liability. And then I got a bid from a sub metering company for about $85,000 to sub meter each unit so that I can build back water, sewer, garbage, and electricity to all the residents.
Matthew Williams:So I figure I'm 60,000 in all day per year on just 70 units. In this situation, we're adding another 50 units. So we're gonna end up to be about a 120 units total. Yeah. So I mean, if if you look at it, you're not double, but you're pretty close.
Matthew Williams:You're probably a 40% increase in expenses. I'd be able to add a $100,000 in utilities per per year. So if I spend a 120 to set up systems to build that back and build it back, there's an opportunity there.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, those are the big moves that you make and they're gonna improve over time. But, yeah, mean, it's up front and, you know, those are the kind of things that I think people who and this is, I think, a problem with a lot of people who are doing investments kind of with the syndication appeal. A lot of these people are looking on really short term things and so they're just kind of putting lipstick on a pig.
Nicholas Cook:They're actually not really improving the asset. And so that's a real structural change and improvement for the park that long term is gonna be good and it's good for the residents too. Right? They're gonna have continuity of the system and things like that, so that's great.
Matthew Williams:Well, you know, the other thing I'll mention too is consumables because, you know, tenants get irritated when they have to pay for what they use, which is interesting. Right? But they they found that somewhere between there's a reduction in consumption by about 10 to 12% once once you start billing it back and people are looking at their own bill.
Nicholas Cook:People don't value free. They don't. I mean, they've done studies on this and everything, and that's kinda one of the flaws. I mean, that's why people have deductibles on plans. Right?
Nicholas Cook:It's like there needs to be some skin in the game to, you know, engage with whatever, you know, the claim is or service so that people aren't just using it without any regard for the impact on that other system and cost and things like that. So I I think that's good idea. I think it makes sense. I mean, at the end of the day, you should pay for what you use. Right?
Matthew Williams:Yeah.
Nicholas Cook:And and it's a little bit more transparent, frankly. Right? Because people then know, okay, this is how things are are actually costing and how my use matters. And that helps with conservation too.
Matthew Williams:Well, here's the way I explain it to residents, and and I think that this works a majority of the time, because a lot of times, if you deliver the message in a way that's really fair and they can comprehend it Yeah. It works out really well. But I say, hey, here's the thing. If I increase rent for the utilities, I'm gonna charge you the same amount in increase and include the utilities that I'm gonna charge the person next to you. And if you're by yourself in your trailer and they have four kids and they're using more, you're still getting charged for theirs.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. You're subsidizing.
Matthew Williams:Correct. But if I bill it back individually and I keep your rent without increasing rent, but now I just charge you your utilities, you could be at $60 a month in utilities. They're at a 110. I didn't have to increase both of your rents by a $100, and you saved 40. That's kinda what I'm trying to get to.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's great too. I mean, it's, you know, there's obviously different ways that people handle that stuff. But I mean, that's that's a great way to kind of approach that and, you know, you get into like other commercial assets and they're passing through common areas and all this other stuff and they're just kinda averaging it out.
Nicholas Cook:I know in multifamily, you know, the utility bill backs, you know, have a separate, you know, kind of section that discloses, like, hey. You may be subsidizing other people. So the fact that you've got those individual meters is a is, I think, a great point you can make. Tell me, let's talk a little bit about the regulatory side of mobile home parks because I think that that's a bit of a mystery for a lot of people. You know, is it the Wild West?
Nicholas Cook:Is it pretty regulated? You know, multifamily, that's one of those things where in in single family, anything that we're like typically where you're housing people in traditional structure, not that manufactured homes aren't traditional structures. They've been around for a long time. But, they tend to have a lot of protections, right, compared to, like, commercial tenants. Right?
Nicholas Cook:So if you've got a office building or retail space, those tenants are largely on their own and based and kind of governed largely by the the lease. What is the regulatory environment for mobile home parks like or manufactured housing parks like?
Matthew Williams:Yes. It's so layers is the way that I would really phrase that.
Nicholas Cook:Gotcha.
Matthew Williams:When you talk about Wild West, the answer is, yeah, it is Wild West in Wyoming, but it's not Wild West here in Oregon. Know? I mean, three of my parks are in Oregon, one of them's in Wyoming, and the difference in layers is completely crazy different. So obviously, fair housing is federal, so that's across the board. You're gonna get fair housing.
Matthew Williams:There is state fair housing stuff too, but in general, I think we as a society have gotten to the point where fair housing, we all understand what's reasonable, fair, and not discriminatory. So Yeah. They still have a lot of, like, they drill at home a lot, but I don't think it's nearly as prevalent as they make it seem, personally.
Nicholas Cook:No. It's not. And I mean, lot of the fair housing issues actually typically center around issues around disability, especially when the disability isn't physical. Right? Something you can see.
Nicholas Cook:And then also familial status in terms of, like, household dynamic, size. Because those are the things that people think maybe are less obvious and therefore require more education. But we're not really seeing the more, you know, historical or, you know, like race, gender, that kind of stuff. Because just people I mean, one, I think people have evolved, but also just why would you do that? It just seems like the downside to that is so substantial that people I think just don't mess with that.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah.
Matthew Williams:Well, on the regulatory side and how it compares to other asset types. So the first layer is the fair housing federal piece. In general, the idea is it's more challenging for someone in a manufactured housing community to move their house. It costs between 10 and $15,000 to move the house. So for me to evict someone, I can get rid of the person, but then the asset, their asset is still there, right?
Matthew Williams:There's a process. So the timelines are longer. When you give notice, you have to give a thirty day notice to cure their noncompliance, which is kind of interesting because you're like, Hey, clean up your yard, and you have to give them thirty days to do that. That's tricky because it's like, Dude, just mow the lawn. They could go out on day 30 and mow the lawn, and then you're like, Oh, great, I gotta wait.
Matthew Williams:So that can be a little bit tricky. But in general, one thing I will tell you, the asset class is really seen as, we mentioned before, affordable housing and the lowest level, and there are a lot of seniors that live in manufactured homes. Yeah, So makes actually just this last legislative session was really a pretty big hit for manufactured housing communities in the state of Oregon. Statewide, as you know, we have rent caps, 7% plus CPI, right? So you're at 9.5% this year In general housing, multifamily, right?
Matthew Williams:Yeah. Well, they just passed legislation this last session that if you own a long term manufactured housing community of 30 units or more, you're capped at six and a half percent rent increase.
Nicholas Cook:Wow.
Matthew Williams:So it's even more stringent than multifamily.
Nicholas Cook:Is that indexed to anything? Just flat 6.5%?
Matthew Williams:No, flat 6.5%. And the idea behind that is, well, and they literally put this out there that the landlords, their phrase is, the landlords are attacking our most vulnerable communities, mostly seniors living on a shoestring.
Nicholas Cook:Fixed income, yeah.
Matthew Williams:So the idea, here's my caution to anybody else in any other asset class. I believe that they did that to test getting a flat six and a half percent to you in the multifamily realm for a couple reasons. Manufactured housing communities represent a much smaller percentage of individuals and communities. We we don't have the same amount of money and lobbyists and PACs putting money together to fight some of that legislation. It's easy from an emotional perspective for them to justify capping it at 6.5%.
Matthew Williams:Yeah. And a lot of those, the impact doesn't really hit large landlords. There aren't people in the state of Oregon that own 50 parks, and the ones that do are like one guy. So it's not really the same, and a majority of the manufactured housing communities aren't 30 units or more. So it's really a small fraction, but it's the legislature here in Oregon testing to see how far can we push it.
Matthew Williams:And it's my belief that in a couple years from now, maybe the next legislative session, maybe the following, they're gonna say, well, we tried it on the manufactured housing communities, and it's working.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah.
Matthew Williams:It's fine. No big deal. Let's just push it to multifamily. Let's push it to single family owned by individual owners. Let's push it to whatever.
Matthew Williams:So I I would really caution you to to pay attention to that because I I believe that that's probably coming in the next session.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that's wise. You know, where we've seen rent control implemented historically, at least some of the first places it showed up was in San Francisco and New York. If we looked at the trend of what it was when that was first implemented versus what it is today, without a doubt, they ratchet it down every time they have an opportunity to do so. And so I, you know, didn't really think about what you said initially from that standpoint, but it makes a lot of sense, especially because I do think that, you know, what they're going to do is, at least on the multifamily thing, I think what they're going to do is they're gonna leave the index part because they want to use that to justify the number.
Nicholas Cook:But what they're gonna ratchet down is the fixed number amount. So instead of it being 7% plus CPI, it'll be 5% plus CPI and then 3% plus CPI. And then, again, if we follow history in other markets, then you're at CPI. Right? And sometimes you're below CPI.
Nicholas Cook:So it's a problem, especially for people who are thinking of getting into the market now and really needing to make sure that they stabilize the asset. If you've owned something for a long time and you've created enough distance between your expenses and your rents, now you've basically got a tool that's preventing competition, which, you know, obviously is a double edged sword. You'd probably rather have the competition than the ability to generate reasonable income. The irony is is that, you know, you're hooking up, the larger community down in North Bend to public utilities, and those rates are gonna go up. Those aren't fixed at six and a half percent.
Nicholas Cook:And I wonder why. Right? Yeah. Well, it's because they know that costs go up more than six and a half percent in a lot of cases, and they'll justify that they need to do it. So it's a little bit of a hypocritical approach, but it's unfortunately, that's the way that Oregon's approach a lot of things, which is like, rather than try to solve the ultimate problem, they want to basically shift the cost to the private sector for a lack of inaction or a lack of action.
Matthew Williams:Well, they're they're not solving any problems. They're just creating the illusion that they're doing something about it. I think that that's the challenge. The other part of it is, to your point, you know, the utilities aren't going down. You know, the the cost for me to put in a private sewage system, so my park in Wyoming, the tenants were when I bought that park, the tenants were paying $310 per month per space, including water, sewer, and garbage.
Nicholas Cook:Pretty great deal. Seems like.
Matthew Williams:It's a great deal for them. And when I come in and increase the rents incrementally, they say, well, why is my rent going up? The park up the street, blah blah blah, whatever. Yeah. For me, I'm thinking, okay.
Matthew Williams:Well, just think about this. I've got 36 units. If I increase their rent by a $100 a month, how long will it take me to pay for a $250,000 sewer upgrade that is not sexy? Yeah. A sewer upgrade just actually allows all the sewer to flow to the city.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah.
Matthew Williams:It's not the It's
Nicholas Cook:like a pool. It's not a clubhouse. Yeah. Dog park where somebody just yeah.
Matthew Williams:Right. It's an interesting scenario. A lot of times, it takes like a community turnover for the people in the community. Some of the people are gonna say, No way, I'm not paying that. And then they sell their house to someone who's willing to pay $4.65.
Matthew Williams:So it's just a matter of really educating and engaging in the community, helping them understand where that money is going, why you're doing what it is that you are doing. I got a really great deal on the park that I have in Milton Freewater. So I bought that park 17 units for $265,000 Now how did I get that great deal? The rent when I bought it was $185 per month, including water, sewer, and garbage, and I have an annual cap per state of Oregon of nine and a half percent. So the most that I can raise their rent every year is 10%.
Matthew Williams:Yeah. So if you think I can raise it 10%, $18.50 this year. Next year, another 10%.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah.
Matthew Williams:So now here we are at $20 a month, I can raise it. It'll take me forever to get those rents up.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. It's an enormous timeline.
Matthew Williams:Meanwhile, the cost of utilities are not at all going down. There's the you know, I've got trees that need to be handled. I've got someone mowing the lawn. He's gonna charge me more next year than he charged me this year because of cost of fuel and maintenance and blah blah blah. So, you know, it's a slippery slope, I think, in general.
Matthew Williams:One thing I will say about the whole regulatory environment, that's got to go in your pro form a too. Mean, I plug in different numbers when I'm analyzing an asset in Oregon than I do when I'm analyzing an asset in Wyoming, just because I have more overhead, more regulatory stuff, whether it be demoing a trailer that needs to go and it's at the end of its life, tenant's been moved out, I've got to demo it. In Oregon, that costs me about $7,200 on average for me to demo a trailer and get rid of it. Yeah. In Wyoming, $2,200.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. I mean, that's substantially different. That's substantially different. You know, I think that and I'll kind of kinda close the loop on the regulatory part here just because we're gonna wrap up and transition to some final questions for you, sir.
Matthew Williams:Okay.
Nicholas Cook:But, you know, it's really sad because there's not from what I've seen, there is no research or experts who think that price controls and certainly rent control is a positive thing for any market or any community. It serves a really small group of people at the expense of everyone else. And it's rare in economics and in, you know, general real estate communities that there's a complete agreement across the board that this is a bad idea. I mean, even Stanford did a study on this, you know, back in, I think, 2017, 2018. And we're like, yeah.
Nicholas Cook:This erodes housing. Right? And if price fixing worked and price controls work not price fixing. If price controls worked, then it's like, why aren't they taking that same approach like we said to utilities? But what about the grocery store?
Nicholas Cook:Right? People need to eat. So there's a lot of ways that they could be doing this, and I think they're picking on real estate at large because generally the term landlord, landowner, developer, you know, carry negative connotations for, you know, some deserved, but also undeserved reasons. And there's just a lack of awareness of, I think, that people and the general public do not appreciate or understand the total cost and risk to own those assets. So it is very sad.
Nicholas Cook:And, you know, it's you're not the only person who's looking at Oregon and the West Coast in general with that same lens. And I hope that they change their minds, the government, and and and look at the long term benefit as opposed to their own just political careers. But pivoting a little bit, you know, we always like to kinda wrap up with some questions to kinda get to know mister Matthew Williams a little bit more. Uh-oh. So we're we're gonna dive into those for some for some fun here.
Nicholas Cook:You know, the first one I have is a little bit of a softball. It's more of, you know, you've done some traveling and I'm just kind of curious, if you could go anywhere in the world for two weeks, where would you go?
Matthew Williams:Someplace I haven't been or someplace I have been?
Nicholas Cook:It could be either or. Yeah. I left it open.
Matthew Williams:Well, I'll tell you. I have been to Corfu, Greece, and I really, really love it. I've traveled in Europe quite a bit. My daughter just moved to Spain in Pamplona, which I really like. The climate is similar to Portland here, which I really do like the climate here.
Nicholas Cook:Cool.
Matthew Williams:And the people are super chill. So Spain, I really like. But I would say Croatia, I've been twice, and it's unbelievable. Been to all over the place in Croatia, and I will say the people there, the beauty, the food is great. So I I would say either Croatia or the Greek Islands.
Matthew Williams:Okay.
Nicholas Cook:Those are sound like great places. Croatia's on our list. We're thinking about trying to make it out there maybe this year. We'll see.
Matthew Williams:It's awesome.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. I've heard I've heard great things and it looks beautiful. So Alright. Well, next question is, you know, you're a parent. Right?
Nicholas Cook:You've got a few kids.
Matthew Williams:I do.
Nicholas Cook:Slightly different ages. What would you say that you would if you had to give just maybe one piece of advice on parenting or something that you would maybe do differently if you go back in time, what's something that you might say? I know that's a tougher question, kinda putting you on the spot.
Matthew Williams:No. Well, that's okay. I mean, my kids my kids range right now from 15 to 29.
Nicholas Cook:Mhmm.
Matthew Williams:Or 30, actually. She just turned 30 in December. So it's interesting now because I am actually looking at what I would do differently. And as a parent, you have a lot of regrets, not because you're a bad parent, it's just because you're building the airplane while you're flying it, and that's kind of a process. Every child being so different, having different desires and different skill sets and different motivations and all that, they're all hard in their own way and a blessing.
Matthew Williams:I would be much more patient, and I would encourage creativity and adventure more than structure and determination. Like I'm a very determined person, and I probably should have lightened up a little bit and just gone with the flow, let them enjoy the kid aspect, and really let them grow into who they're gonna be.
Nicholas Cook:Because
Matthew Williams:my primary job as a parent, I think, is to encourage without destroying their spirit. If you cannot crush their spirit, that's your number one goal in in life as a parent, think.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. Great. That's good advice. Good advice. So one of the and this is kind of the final question I have here.
Nicholas Cook:You're into music. You're a music guy. At least that's how I would label you.
Matthew Williams:Yes. Big label, but yes.
Nicholas Cook:Yeah. It's a big label. Yeah. You're pretty fond of Bob Dylan. True.
Nicholas Cook:And so I'm curious, you know, what drew you into that music? Was it the lyrics? Was it the instrumentals? Was it the ethos? Like, what what connected you with that particular musician?
Matthew Williams:Dylan. So I'm a very chronological person Mhmm. And he had a big library
Nicholas Cook:Mhmm.
Matthew Williams:Which gives you, obviously, the more content you have of someone like there's a guy named Rodriguez who's who I would highly recommend. There's a documentary called Searching for Sugar Man. And he was who Bob Dylan is, but he just only put out like two albums, and he was really big in a specific area. Anyway, it's interesting because I really liked his one album, but then like the the adventure kind of stops there, you know? Whereas Bob Dylan just had a huge library.
Nicholas Cook:Dysography. Yeah.
Matthew Williams:Yeah. And by the time I got to Bob Dylan when I was in high school, I'm a lyrics guy first off, But when you listen to lyrics and you listen to the impact it can have, I used music quite a bit as a kid as an escape. I would see myself in someone else's adventure, and Bob Dylan had an incredible library for that and a way for me to escape and delve into things and look at the literature of it and just try to understand where he was coming from. And I really liked that time period, the sixties through the seventies, eighties. Yeah.
Matthew Williams:I feel like that time period just had a lot of adventure and exploration, and there was just a lot of creativity and opportunity there. And I didn't have a lot of creativity. I'm not a musician. I just love music.
Nicholas Cook:Sure.
Matthew Williams:And so I could really explore that aspect, and that's been really great for me. And now, I mean, there's a lot of great artists now that have that same kind of passion and lyrics, and like Morgan Wallen, I think, is great. Noah Khan is is great. Yeah. There's there's a lot of just great music out there, and, you know, with the digital age, we have access to way more than we did back then.
Nicholas Cook:It's so crazy. Yeah.
Matthew Williams:It's unbelievable. Awesome.
Nicholas Cook:Cool. Well, Matt, thanks for being here and telling everyone about what you've got going on and helping give people a peek into what manufactured housing investing looks like. I've been wanting to have you on for a while for a lot of reasons. Wanted to obviously just catch up with you, but to hear about your story and your journey, and, thanks for being so open and and transparent.
Matthew Williams:Yeah. Thanks, Nick. Thanks for having me come in. I obviously love the asset type, but love hanging out with you, and it's always good to collaborate. So, thanks very much.
Matthew Williams:Appreciate it.
Nicholas Cook:And that concludes today's episode of retire on rentals. But we do have a quick favor to ask before you jump off. If you haven't already, please go ahead and like and subscribe. More engagement means better content and more excellent guests. And we look forward to joining you on your real estate journey.
Nicholas Cook:Now remember, stay focused, stay driven, so you can retire on rentals.