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Leader Dogs for the Blind empowers people who are blind or visually impaired with the tools for safe and independent daily travel. Our goal is to educate, advocate, and share real life experiences of those with blindness. Come learn, laugh, and grow with us.
Christina: [00:00:00] Welcome to the taking the lead podcast where we empower people to be unstoppable. I'm Christina Hepner with my cohost, Leslie Hoskins and Timothy Cuneo. Timothy, you have to tell us, we previously talked about, you were going to test out this robotic dog. You've done it now. Tell us about it.
Timothy: Uh, man, uh, this dog, well, they call it a dog.
It doesn't even, it looks like a dog, but it's not a dog. It looks kind of weird. Um, there's very small head on it, if there's a head at all. And it's kind of lunky or wobbly. They did different stages. There's four different stages to this dog. The first thing they did is like, uh, they made me walk and then they tightened it up or they made it loose.
I'm talking about NASCAR here a little bit, but it was weird. With Glacier, I know what she's doing with this thing. I had no idea what it was going to do or how it's going to turn me and stuff like that. And, uh, they made me do different kinds of turns and which one feels more natural to you. And I have [00:01:00] no idea what this dog's doing.
And I said, these should be some kind of beeping noise or something. If it's going to turn left or right or nothing. So I felt like I wasn't a part of this thing. I felt no connection to it. And then the final stage, they finally turned it on. It was talking to me. I'm going to take a left. I'm going to walk around this.
Oh, no way. We're going down a hallway. We're going through doors. There's a vending machine on your left. There's an outside door and it tells you how the, how the weather is
Leslie: outside. It was a talking dog. Was the dog telling you what to do though or where you
Timothy: were going? It was basically, yes, it was telling me, and that was one of the, one of the things I didn't like about it.
With Glacier, I'm, I'm driving the Glacier. Yeah. When I'm with this thing, I feel like. I'm just hanging on and I'm just going for the ride. It's like I'm the
Leslie: passenger. So how would that work in the real world? You'd have to like program in your route ahead of time and then... Well, they
Timothy: are so far away, Leslie, from doing this thing.
It is just infantile yet. You can't go up steps or go up curbs or... And they're going to have problems with [00:02:00] the lithium battery in it, uh, if it's outside and it's 20 degrees outside, the lithium battery will go and be zapped out. Yeah. And water. And it got really exciting at the, towards the end of it, at the beginning of it, I was not
Christina: impressed.
Wait. So I'm so curious, like, did you have a handle harness to hold on to or how did that work? It was a handle
Timothy: harness. It was a handle harness. The harness felt good. I liked the harness of it. And then they made me try a leash. Let's try a leash with this. And I'm, uh, it was when I put that was grabbing the leash.
It was a hot mess. It was no, I told him this doesn't work. See, the problem was I was the only guide dog user. They had to touch that dog. Everybody else has just been with a cane and cane. People have not yet had a guide dog, so they can't give them what me and Glacier go through. And it was just. I appreciate what they're doing, but they are just barely scraping the surface.
They got all these things they want to put into this dog. The [00:03:00] technology is out there, but it's like biscuits. You got so many ingredients and put together, then you got a beautiful biscuit. They got a long ways to go. I
Leslie: love that. Beautiful biscuit. It's just like
Timothy: biscuit. You know me and food. Me and
Christina: food.
Ugh. Ugh. Now I want a biscuit.
Leslie: Well, that is so, but that's
Christina: so cool to, like, be able to try that at least. Was, Glacier was there with you, right? How did she react to this? She did
Timothy: not like that dog. She growled.
Christina: Really?
Timothy: And, uh, whenever I went through my stages and got done with the stages, she ran over to me and got to the left of me and said, Okay, here
Leslie: I am.
She's like, This, this thing is not taking my job.
Timothy: So, I got a picture of me and Glacier with the robotic dog on Instagram and I have this music of the Terminator
Christina: on it. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. Timothy, you're going to have to send that to me because I'm sure people are going to want to see that picture when we promote it.
I will send you the
Leslie: picture. Did the, the robotic dog have [00:04:00] like a name? I think it's called Moby.
Timothy: Moby. Okay. Moby was its name. But the thing about it is Moby was being directed and driven by somebody with a joystick or a handle behind me. They're going to put AI in it. And Moby ran over a sign. Wet floor sign it ran over it.
Gotcha. So if I fell down or Moy would keep on walking . So if I fell down, I would've to, Moy would just keep on going. Yeah. So they got a good start. They've got a long ways
Christina: to go. Yeah. Timothy, I just pulled up your Instagram and I pulled up the picture of it. I now see what you're saying. That it doesn't exactly resemble a dog.
It's kind of like a, it's kind of like a table with a harness on it is how I would describe it. Like a little side table That's interesting. And stuff like. Drove
Timothy: me crazy and I told him it walks really slow probably about a quarter speed of what Glacier does and you hear noise all the time and I said drive somebody like me crazy because we listen we listen for our [00:05:00] environment and That's just the gears inside that thing and that would drive me insane Which is not too far of a drive.
But anyway.
Leslie: That's really interesting though. And I think that's so cool that they're working on this though. I personally, right, I believe nothing will ever replace a working guide dog. However, that people are wanting to create technology and resources to help people who are blind or visually impaired.
Listen, I'm all in. Maybe that a robotic dog is going to be a good fit for somebody. That's awesome. Whatever's going to work. So yeah, I'm super excited about that. And I think that's awesome that you are a part of the research.
Timothy: Yeah, they've asked me to come back. So I'm looking forward to going back. And they said, Hey, be brutal about it on the podcast because they listen.
Hey, John. So, uh, they told me to be brutal about it. The only thing I don't like about it also, they don't have intelligent disobedience in it. Yeah. And, uh, I said, what would happen if you walked out in the street? Uh, Glacier will stop. He said, well, I guess you'll get hit. Oh,
Leslie: well, that's not good. to dance right [00:06:00] now.
Well, Moby, you're not selling yourself here. Hey, hey, got some work
Christina: to do though. Then that's good to know. And you know what? It could be good for someone who maybe doesn't want the responsibility of a dog but wants more than a cane. I would say. And Leslie is going to shake her head at me when I say that.
No, I
Leslie: think, I think there is a place for something like that. You know, if you Think about even just like assisted living homes where somebody is doing the same route to the dining room all the time. Or college. And, uh, yeah, or college or something where, you know, maybe they don't have the physical ability to move a cane back and forth, but they could hold on to this robotic dog or something.
I mean, there's a place for, for everything, right? People have so many different needs and varying degrees. And I think it's, I think it's really cool. I'm excited about it. So thank you for sharing
Janine: Timothy.
Timothy: Everything starts somewhere. And
Leslie: that's a cool idea. Also way to go for you, Timothy. You are really like putting your name out there and people are recognizing you and going to you for so many different things.
So you are just doing incredible things. So we're very proud of you, Timothy. [00:07:00] All right. Well, thank you for that. Yeah, I just, I love, I mean, I think back to when you came on campus that first time for O& M to like, look at you now. What aren't you doing at this point? I mean, goodness, you're involved in so many things.
I just. I love being busy. I
Timothy: love being busy. Look
Christina: at you. You're an O& M teacher. I know.
Leslie: I'm so proud. Is she crying? I'm not crying yet. I haven't cried in a while, but I am very proud of you.
Christina: We gotta get some more tears out of her. I'm just kidding. All right, we should probably get
Leslie: into our episode today. We have a really cool guest today that we're going to move right along into.
Uh, because we are actually inviting it back or welcoming back a former guest, but just to discuss a whole new topic this time.
Christina: Janine Penzone was previously on the podcast with her kids, Zach and Kayla, who are both LeaderDog clients. She's a student at Salish University studying orientation and mobility and vision rehabilitation therapy.
[00:08:00] And she was at LeaderDog in the fall as an O& M intern. Janine,
Timothy: welcome back to the podcast. It was great to see you in September. What have you been doing lately since the last time you were on the
Janine: podcast? Thanks for having me and it was really great to finally meet you when we were together on campus.
So since then I've finished all my coursework at Salish University and I am now, uh, finished up my internship with LeaderDog. So, I was out here for the fall working with all O& M clients here at LeaderDog.
Christina: Zach and Kaelig both came to campus and they stayed on campus. So, what was that like for you coming to campus and you stayed on campus for your internship?
What was that like? It was
Janine: pretty cool. It was kind of a full circle for me. It, you know, except for it started backwards. We had dogs that came to the house and then I went to school. So, first fight, you know, dealing with the children, with their... Um, visual impairments, then having the dogs. Then [00:09:00] I decided to go back to school and, um, get my master's in orientation and mobility and vision rehab therapy.
And then do all the coursework, working with them and seeing things a little differently why things were taught to them. And then actually living on campus for three months was really great. I know they were only here, what, three weeks. Is that what they stay when they come to get their dogs? So. Being here over closer to four months, three and a half months is definitely a little different than what they experienced, but it was wonderful to put faces with names and actually get to know people because there's so many that are still here that had worked with my kids and some who just started when they started and just hearing about their journey at Leader Dog, it's, it's been really great.
So, I guess the
Timothy: first full circle of it is your kids want the leader dog and now you want the leader dog. Exactly. I think that's awesome. The entire family. And how was the food while you were there? I'm sure there's an idea.
Janine: Oh my gosh. I didn't even think he was going to ask that. The food is [00:10:00] amazing. I have never been anywhere where it is, it, like chefs cook it.
It's, it's phenomenal, the food. And if it's something you don't like, they're like, oh, let me get you something else. They're like, like your little grandma is just wanting to feed you all the time. They're fantastic.
Leslie: Yeah. It's phenomenal. They really are. I am interested in your perspective. So I also did my internship, my O& M internship at LeaderDog, and I thought it was so interesting.
However, I feel like your perspective will be even better watching multiple guide dog classes come through, right? So you got to see in your time. Multiple classes come through, so you're seeing people from their first day and their whole three week journey. What was that like from your perspective? And then thinking back and, you know, how those conversations with Zach and Kayla while they were on campus kind of going through the same things.
Janine: So being here with them, it's interesting watching because I never understood the first day you don't get your dog when you're here. It's a couple of days in. So you have all this excitement and [00:11:00] anticipation with the clients and you're, you know, I was in the dining halls with them with, for their meals and just seeing them in the hallways.
So it was definitely different when the day came they got their dogs. Everything changed when you saw them, you saw. Um, still some nerves because they weren't sure exactly how to handle the dog or were they handling it correctly, which, you know, the, the guide dog mobility instructors were all around to help them with that.
So it wasn't like they got their dog and they were left alone to figure out what to do next. And then just watching them develop the relationship with their dogs was something I didn't get to see with the kids. I just kind of heard like, Oh, like we did this today with the dogs or, Oh, we had puppy massage day.
And I learned how to do this. Or. Oh, my dog really likes to, um, play with the Kong. So I saw those things, but with my children, but with the clients, you actually got to watch them every day change and how the dog started really listening to them and [00:12:00] following the, following them and, you know, learning their little likes or dislikes.
Like recently a client, every time I came in the room, had to sniff me and that was it. Sniffed and then went and sat where they had to be. If I wasn't there, then the dog would turn and sit facing my chair until I came, which is kind of funny. But then once I was there, world was good. Okay, I'm going back to look at mom now.
I don't need to worry that this person is here or not here. So it's just, I think the growth was you saw every day with the clients on campus, but with my children, it was just whatever little story they wanted to tell me. And there wasn't the full explanation of why they were doing or what they were doing or how they were experiencing it.
It was just whatever they wanted to tell me. So watching, you know, from the morning, the client's getting instruction on what they're going to do for the day or what skills they're going to work on. And then of course, if there's any behavioral problems with the dogs, they get to talk about [00:13:00] it. Um, and give guidance.
They were given guidance on how to rectify that. So me, you know, I, I remember, you know, Kayla calling and saying like, Cain likes to lay on the corner of blankets and she's like, I don't know if I'm supposed to do that. I don't know if that's allowed or whatever, you know, and I'm like, well, I don't think they should have anything, you know, but yeah, you know, having the ability to go to the guide dog mobility instructor and say, this is a behavior that's happening.
Um, is it okay? We're calling me to ask me. I'm like, I don't know. I would say no, because they're the experts, you know, so it was after the fact hearing maybe that there was something going on, how it was rectified and okay, this is what we're doing now. There, I got to see the whole process happening with the clients.
That's very cool.
Leslie: So you were at LeaderDog though for an orientation and mobility internship. So last time we spoke to you, you were finishing up your classes. You still hadn't done kind of like your blindfold class, uh, [00:14:00] to learn all those skills, the cane skills under blindfold. Uh, but now we're. In the fall, you were an O& M intern at LeaderDog.
What was that like? Like, what is a day in the life of an O& M intern? Because I don't think we've talked about the internship much other than my little tidbits here and there.
Janine: So it is a lot of fun. So you know, our day is 730 to 4 is usually what we are working with the clients. Um, we have a lesson in the morning that goes from like 830 to around 11, then the clients have a break.
And then we have another lesson one to three. And then if they're a client that would benefit from night lessons, then we do go out depending in September. It was later in the evening, you know, in November it was earlier in the evening, just depending on when the, when the darkness was, but it's really neat that you get to start Uh, with a client that's here for a week, they come with a specific goal or maybe they don't know what their goal is and you can help them figure out what they really want to learn.
And [00:15:00] then that whole week is just building on what is necessary for them to travel safely and independently. So mornings and afternoons are different every day. We're in different environments. Clients have different goals, you know, some. Really want to learn escalators and travel in rural environments.
Others, they just want to know how to walk across a parking lot without getting sucked into that vortex of the road or the, or the building where, you know, they don't want to be. Some, you know, they know how to cross streets with all quiet or with stop signs. But if you get to a busier intersection, they're not sure what to do.
So we have so many of those environments here that we can take them and teach to them. So it's, it's really cool that it can be so individualized for each person. So
Timothy: the Janine, towards the end of the internship, did they let you be one on one with a client? Yeah. Towards the end. Yeah. And so, how did that make you feel [00:16:00] that you're changing somebody's life at that moment for a week?
How did that make you feel inside that you're making a difference in somebody's
Janine: life? This is what I want to do. It is so amazing to look and going from something so simple that the client thought was, uh, It's so monstrous that they couldn't do it and finding out there is really simple techniques that they can do it and it's the best feeling in the world to be able to say, look at, look at you.
Now you can do this. Look at on Monday. You weren't able to, um, understand how to do this. And on Friday you're doing it at a hundred percent. Like that's the best. feeling in the world. Yeah. Be able to help someone like that.
Christina: Earlier in the fall, Janine, you and one of the other certified orientation mobility specialist, Tommy did my blindfold walk with me.
You guys took me downtown and I learned a lot because I felt like. I was kind of just dropped off [00:17:00] and told where I was going. I walked up, I think I walked up, um, did I walk up somebody's driveway? Do you remember that? Yes, I did. I walked up somebody's driveway. I was just saying hi. But like, just, you know, doing those sort of things and that I learned a lot because I just, You know, I learned what our clients go through and it's such a mental, mental week.
I mean, that morning for me, I was exhausted. I was like, I still have to work the last half the day. Um, but it's just sentimentally like, which direction am I going? Am I going north? I am also, I am very bad at directions. Like I rely on a GPS just to get like five minutes down the road. So, what was that like kind of learning that part with the clients because it is such a mental thing for them to be able to, you know, think about where they're going, the directions, all of that.
How do you navigate that?
Janine: So, I, I agree with you. It is very mentally taxing. I have to explain to the client [00:18:00] sometimes that it's not, you're tired not because of the physicalness that you do, but because of how much you're thinking or what you're thinking about. So, it's really trying to get them to start thinking.
Maybe in a little different way than what they were prior to coming here. Um, and you, the easiest way is to start small. You want to tell them, yes, this is the direction that we're going in. We, we just want you to know that. But then just repeating to them, letting them know, you don't have to remember the street names.
Or, um, all you have to remember is what side the parallel street is on. So take that away and then just building upon that every day. Um, and then finding out if there is a, a problem where they're just not understanding North and South, then you can take that part out and just work on, um, moving North to South on the block.
So they can take it and it's generalized here and you want them to be able to take it back home and be able to [00:19:00] apply it at home. So a lot of times we also will look at the home environment and see if we can replicate something that's in their home environment that maybe would make it. Um, more understandable for them to, to follow, but usually start by just repeating the directions.
You know, we do the same couple routes in the beginning, just building and we'll say, you know, Walnut Street is on your left. You're going to, um, Third Street. So we keep telling you the names of the streets and some people pick up real quick and they remember the name of the street. Others don't and they don't have to.
It's just the way you're moving. If we're on the street, which way is traffic moving? Let's listen to the traffic and use that because as funny as it is, uh, traffic is your best friend when you have no vision. It's,
Leslie: yeah, layering the information, starting really small. And we do want just, you know, cause there's two parts to orientation mobility.
There's the mobility, which is getting physically from point A to point B [00:20:00] safely, like maneuvering through the environment. And there's that orientation piece, which is knowing where you are, where you're going and how to get there. And so then you have to put all that together, which is. Absolutely a lot.
And so if we can kind of build that muscle memory of moving the cane regularly so that we don't have to think about that as much, and then you add on all these other pieces like Janine is saying. I'm curious though, so talking a little bit about Christina's blindfold experience, which right, is just a glimpse and it builds a little bit of empathy and understanding for what our clients go through.
But Janine, last time we had talked, as mentioned, you hadn't yet gone through your blindfold, we call it kind of blindfold training at school. or in, uh, in college. And so I am a firm believer. I don't think I would believe in the skills had I not learned them myself. Like, had I not had to be under blindfold two hours a week, every week in grad school to learn all these skills and actually go out and cross streets and do these things.
I don't know that I would have as much faith or believe in them as much as I do because I've done them. I'm just curious what your
Janine: thoughts are. I agree a [00:21:00] hundred percent. And there's even the empathy part. I was with a group. I, myself, and either one other student or two students, and we would take turns with an instructor being blindfolded, and my coursework was done in Philadelphia.
So we started in smaller environments. We started on campus. Then we went to, you know, a residential neighborhood that was quiet. Then we went to semi business. Then we went to downtown Philadelphia, and then we were taking transportation, public transportation. I agree 100 percent because I don't think I could completely understand, you know, when you're looking at someone and say, how could you get disoriented when you're trying to cross the street?
Put a blindfold on, listen, you can get disoriented very quickly. So doing that allows you to come up with the strategies, the importance of the strategies to help others who do have that problem. Watching the other cohorts. Um, you know, also was like, [00:22:00] Oh, I never thought about, you know, doing something that way.
I would have just went straight A to B, but they realized that there was too much noise there. So they went, you know, backwards and crossed the street. So it's learning different perspectives from people. But yeah, I mean, I had never been on a subway before. My first subway experience was blindfolded in Philadelphia.
So that was, um, quite challenging, but it also gave me. Um, the understanding to let's make sure the client knows what to expect. Let's talk about it ahead of time. I wish I had that. I didn't when we went, but that was the purpose of the skill. You went and did, but it just gave me a way to be like, I can take this back and use it with my clients because I know how I felt in that situation and they may feel that way and not know how to verbalize it.
So if you just include thinking about assumptions that could happen. When you're traveling, I think takes a lot of [00:23:00] anxiety out for people. So I believe that was probably the biggest thing I learned is Some empathy and ways that I can teach others. Absolutely. It's not the same. No.
Leslie: We can take the blindfold off at the end of the lesson and look back and see what we learned.
But I do firmly believe it's such a key piece to building empathy and understanding and being a good O& M instructor. One thing I do want to talk about too, I think a huge perk, uh, which I think there are a lot of perks, obviously, of being an O& M intern at LeaderDog specifically, but is the team and getting to shadow and observe and work with so many different comms.
I'm just curious
Janine: what your thoughts are. I do like that. I liked it a lot being able to work with everyone. I took pieces from what everybody was saying or how they taught. It's really great, the team that I worked with, because you can come back from a lesson and be like, Hey, I experienced this. What do you got for me?
And everyone has [00:24:00] something, either agrees with someone else or like, Hey, why don't you try this? You were never on your own. through the whole internship without somebody or someone's guidance. Or if they knew you were out with something that was more challenging for you, or you knew the client was very anxious about something that you had talked about, sending me a message.
Everything going okay? Do you need us for any support? We're here. Just let us know. Which is great because I know I learn better that way and just knowing that you're supported makes it so much easier to go out and do your job. Knowing that you can always come back and ask whatever questions you want to a really great team.
All
Timothy: right. Well, Janine, you went to leader dog. You learned all these skills for the becoming O& M. What's next for you? What's on the
Janine: horizon for me? Well, this spring I am doing, uh, I have to do my internship for vision rehab therapy. And then after that, I will be looking for a job primarily O& M. And if I could [00:25:00] do O& M VRT, that would be great.
So, options are open to whatever comes. The sky's the
Leslie: limit. Yeah. There we go. Who knows? That is so exciting. So,
Christina: are you looking to be closer to Zach and Kayla? They're both, where are they both at again?
Janine: They're in Pennsylvania right now. That's what I thought. Okay. Are
Christina: you looking to be in Pennsylvania?
Leslie: No.
Janine: They're good. They don't need her. I taught them everything. Yeah.
Leslie: I got it. And poor Jenna too, we always, Jenna's also fun, Jenna's doing
Janine: great too. She is, she is, but um, no, my intention was, you know, um, after I went back to school that Um, I would like to go with a good company and work with them. My intention is not to stay in the area back home, but I'm open to whatever comes around.
So you let the kids
Christina: go off to college and now you
Leslie: get to
Janine: go do your wing. Exactly. Yup. Cause I, you know, when they were younger, it was, it was harder to do that, but they're, you know, well [00:26:00] established in what they're doing and where they want to go. So it's my turn to figure that part out. Absolutely.
Absolutely.
Leslie: Well, thank you so much for joining us today and sharing about your experience as an O& M intern. You've just brought so much perspective, and I know you are going to be amazing in the field as an orientation and mobility specialist. So welcome. We're excited to have you, and thank you for all of your
Janine: future work.
Thank you. Thank you for having me today. Of course.
Leslie: And thank you so much to our listeners for listening to the Taking the Lead podcast. I'm Leslie Hoskins with host Timothy Cuneo and Christina Hapner. We hope you enjoyed catching up with Janine. Please join us again next time as we continue to dive into the world of blindness.
Christina: If you'd like to learn more about applying to our free services at LeaderDog, you can head to LeaderDog. org or call us at 888 777 5332. And don't forget, you can reach us at TakingTheLead at LeaderDog. org with any questions or ideas. If you liked today's podcast, [00:27:00] make sure to hit subscribe and check us out wherever podcasts stream.