Burnout to Breakthrough | Mindy Caliguire, Soul Care

Leadership doesn’t have to come at the cost of your soul. In this compelling episode, ECFA President Michael Martin sits down with Mindy Caliguire, founder of Soul Care and author of Ignite Your Soul, for a candid conversation on the growing crisis of burnout—and what we can do about it.

Together, they unpack ECFA’s new Standard for Leader Care, explore the warning signs of soul neglect, and share practical rhythms for spiritual and emotional health. Michael opens up about his own journey toward deeper soul care and what it’s meant for his leadership. Mindy offers wisdom, hope, and encouragement for leaders navigating fear, exhaustion, or isolation.

The conversation doesn’t stop at personal growth—this episode also offers a clear challenge to boards and leadership teams: Leader care is not optional—it’s essential. Learn how boards can create a culture of safety, support, and sustainability before a crisis ever hits.

Whether you're leading a ministry, church, or organization, this episode is a must-listen for anyone who wants to lead with integrity, longevity, and a soul that’s fully alive.

About Mindy: 

Mindy Caliguire is the co-founder and president of Soul Care, which exists to help leaders personally flourish and achieve missional impact. Mindy serves as an Ambassador for the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA), and in the past has served in executive leadership at Gloo and the Willow Creek Association (now GLN). Soul Care serves ministries and organizations across the US and beyond including C-12, Compassion International, The Navigators, Christ Church of the Valley, Dallas Theological Seminary, Plum Creek Church, and many more. Mindy’s most recent book is Ignite Your Soul: When Exhaustion, Isolation, and Burnout Light a Path to Flourishing.

Additional Resources:

ECFA.org/LeaderCare
soulcare.com
Ignite Your Soul – Mindy Caliguire
Renovation of the Heart - Dallas Willard

If this conversation resonated with you, don’t keep it to yourself—share it with someone and keep the conversation going! 

Creators and Guests

Host

Michael Martin

President & CEO of ECFA

Guest

Mindy Caliguire

Mindy Caliguire is the co-founder and president of Soul Care, which exists to help leaders personally flourish and achieve missional impact.

What is Behind the Seal?

ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?

Tune in to conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders. Together, we'll share stories from behind the scenes of various Christ-centered ministries and churches, highlighting how trust serves as the foundation of it all.

01;00;00;03 - 01;00;28;00
Mindy Caliguire
I do believe we are at an inflection point. This is a breach in the wall. This is not a window of opportunity. This is - it is time to move with deliberation at scale, in ways that are redemptive and helpful, and start to change this narrative. Those unhealthy leadership current realities - when people who are gifted and called by God, who have those gifts of leadership, start setting their target as we're going to change this in our culture.

01;00;28;05 - 01;00;31;09
Mindy Caliguire
I think this could change.

01;00;33;25 - 01;01;01;08
Ryan Gordon
Burnout in isolation don't just affect leaders. They impact entire ministries. But there's hope. Intentional steps by creating space for honest conversations and a culture of health can change everything. In this episode, ECFA President Michael Martin sits down with Mindy Caliguire co-founder and president of Soul Care and author of Ignite Your Soul to have a real conversation about the urgent need for leader care.

01;01;01;10 - 01;01;16;16
Ryan Gordon
I especially appreciated Mindy's urgent call to change the narrative and level up how we do leadership, from soul health to boardroom transparency. This conversation is a wake up call. Let's dive in.

01;01;16;19 - 01;01;21;25
Michael Martin
Well, Mindy Caliguire, long time no see, my friend! Welcome to the ECFA podcast!

01;01;21;27 - 01;01;28;25
Mindy Caliguire
Thank you. I'm so delighted. So delighted to join you. It has - It's not been that long since I saw you last. That's kind of fun.

01;01;28;27 - 01;01;29;28
Michael Martin
Well, that was my joke.

01;01;30;01 - 01;01;36;10
Mindy Caliguire
Is that what you mean? Yeah. I was like, “Was it a week ago today?”

01;01;36;12 - 01;01;56;05
Michael Martin
Well, for everybody's who's who's listening. Yeah. Mindy and I, before we went and hit record on this podcast, we were together just a couple of weeks ago at a board governance training where, there were some donors to Christian ministries, Christian ministry leaders, engaged around this topic. We're going to talk about today, which is leader care. And I think we're going to see each other down the road next week.

01;01;56;05 - 01;02;01;21
Michael Martin
So but here we are today in the podcast world. So it's good to be with you on the podcast.

01;02;01;24 - 01;02;06;04
Mindy Caliguire
I love it. I love it. We love the podcast world. Honored to be with you.

01;02;06;06 - 01;02;18;19
Michael Martin
We do well and it gives us an opportunity is, you know, this is the Behind the Seal podcast. So we get to go behind the seal of what's happening at ECFA. And over this past year, there's been a little something called the launch of a new standard.

01;02;18;21 - 01;02;21;14
Mindy Caliguire
Just a little project

01;02;21;14 - 01;02;43;29
Michael Martin
More than a little. It's been a big deal. And we are so grateful for, the call that we've since got have on ECFA to move forward with this new standard around leader care how it really comes. As an extension of ECFA, as mission of enhancing trust in a lot of ways, a standard that relates to governance, but out of a real heart to care for leaders.

01;02;43;29 - 01;03;00;11
Michael Martin
And so we're going to talk more about that today. And, Mindy, you have been, just such a great friend, advocate, champion teacher. I mean, so many things. To get you on this journey. So we're just grateful to get to go behind the scenes with you today.

01;03;00;14 - 01;03;13;19
Mindy Caliguire
I'm delighted to be with you. And it is an important journey, and I'm grateful for your leadership in it. So it's a it's a really significant moment in the church and the body of Christ. I mean, broadly, the church.

01;03;13;22 - 01;03;44;13
Michael Martin
No, we definitely sense that as well. And I think just as I think of you, Mindy, a couple of things where, just going behind the scenes, you've been really a blessing to ECFA is, you know, first of all, just giving what I would say is like giving witness to God's call for the community to step into the standard, but then also helping us as we're navigating, you know, as you know, it was a years long discernment process, big thanks in part to the ECFA members, by the way, for giving their feedback into the standard.

01;03;44;13 - 01;04;14;01
Michael Martin
But really wrestling with, how do we come, how do we become really aware of the needs that leaders are facing. And then also through a standard, how can we serve them well? And so from all of your experience with Soul Care, you've been able to really speak into that. But I'm also curious and just hearing from you as you've been on this journey alongside ECFA, for what have you been, insights you've been taking away and talking with other ministries and leaders about this new standard?

01;04;14;04 - 01;04;34;07
Mindy Caliguire
Yeah, yeah, it is kind of fun that you're framing the whole podcast as behind the seal kind of like letting people in on what's behind the scenes, behind the seal And that the things that I'm hearing and have been seeing again kind of for decades, for a long time in the space of leaders’ soul health is the way I would normally frame it.

01;04;34;07 - 01;05;02;17
Mindy Caliguire
And then it's sort of implications or ramifications into personal lives, families, ministries, etc.. Has had me, engaged on this topic in, you know, varying ways for a long time. But I would say since the pandemic, the interest in or more, almost like it went from a true need, but not a felt need to a felt need.

01;05;02;17 - 01;05;31;03
Mindy Caliguire
And more and more people's and organization lives like, how are our leaders doing? And I think culturally we've elevated a lot of topics around toxic leadership. We've had some sad stories that have helped people see that even very, very, successful ministries behind the scenes can be having some really heartbreaking stories of the health of those leaders who are serving in sometimes some impossible situations.

01;05;31;03 - 01;06;00;13
Mindy Caliguire
And so, I've known for that a long time. But then I would say since the pandemic, it really became quite clear that this, this, this is requiring a level of focus that, is, you know, why I made a personal, significant vocational shift to move into this. And then that observing, you know, you guys, you know, I've said this has been a textbook, change management example.

01;06;00;15 - 01;06;34;22
Mindy Caliguire
So it's been really beautiful to see how you have embedded, a commitment to healthy leadership for yourself and for your team in the midst of your own leadership, mountain that you're, you know, climbing. So to see the need in the, in the ecosystem out there and then to be able to sort of witness firsthand how you and your team have been navigating this spiritually, professionally, leadership wise.

01;06;34;22 - 01;06;52;06
Mindy Caliguire
I mean, it's just been so beautiful. So I, I have seen, a lot, of things that I just so admire and have. Yeah, you know, the joke, you, you know, now that I've had this, like, prior. Yes. Like, whatever, whatever you're asking for. Certainly if it's in my.

01;06;52;06 - 01;06;52;21
Mindy Caliguire
Ability to.

01;06;52;21 - 01;07;12;20
Mindy Caliguire
Give, I have a, I have even when you ask me about the podcast, you're like, I know you're going to say yes because you've given me your prior. Yes, but would you please give? And I was like, yes and yes. So, so I just but I also like I've been in this space like from my own leadership crash many, many years ago, which is where a lot of leaders find themselves.

01;07;12;20 - 01;07;34;01
Mindy Caliguire
They're isolated, they're exhausted, they're burned out. They they just don't see a way forward. And that that is a very debilitating place to be. And it's hard to know. I don't even know what leader care would look like when I, you know, when I was back in that situation and God so mercifully took me on a different path.

01;07;34;01 - 01;08;19;27
Mindy Caliguire
And then I've had these very honest conversations with leaders in all kinds of contexts. Parish church, large church, small church, big parish church, small parish church, global NGOs, like all these kinds of things. And and I was hearing the same thing in all of these different places, all of this isolation, this exhaustion, this burnout, this lack of sort of health in the interior places, despite a deep and firm commitment to the message of the gospel and the work of of of of of our ministries and so seeing that over time, has given me just this huge burden for the health of leaders, because no one starts out in leadership wanting to end up

01;08;19;27 - 01;08;51;15
Mindy Caliguire
there. But it can happen. And so I, I see how that happens anyway. So I care time. But I, I am curious, how this topic has gotten on Eckford radar. Like maybe pull behind the seal a little bit and let people know, like our listeners, how how did this become, so important that it's I mean, is it fair to say this is probably the largest shift in phase operations since you found it?

01;08;51;18 - 01;08;53;07
Mindy Caliguire
Like this is a big deal.

01;08;53;10 - 01;09;23;14
Michael Martin
Yeah, no, that's a fair assessment. And I think just reflecting back a couple things that I, I think I heard you say, Mindy, which is this has been a need for a long time, but it really feels like we are at, in a lot of ways an inflection point. And as you were sharing, I was just thinking about how we see that theme even in Scripture, right where it's like for such a time as this, there are appointed times and seasons and all of those things under heaven.

01;09;23;16 - 01;09;47;12
Michael Martin
And so we would give witness to that as well. Yeah. You know how this got on the radar of ECFA? I mean, I'd say in a lot of ways kind of running on a parallel track to what you were just sharing and I think the pandemic certainly was kind of a marker in time that caused us all to, of course, none of us want to relive that.

01;09;47;15 - 01;10;19;02
Michael Martin
We we don't want to go back. But one of the things I think we can all be grateful for is that there was a period of good, I would say sort of like assessing the reality of things and sort of where we are and having opportunities for some introspection and reflection and, and then also, so, so in that I'm saying, like it gave us an opportunity to come in with a fresh set of eyes into a lot of different things, while at the same time, that season, I wouldn't say it was the beginning, because it certainly wasn't.

01;10;19;02 - 01;10;44;10
Michael Martin
I mean, the challenges of leadership have been I mean, ongoing. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But I do think it kind of put an accelerator on a lot of different things. And so just bringing into focus the, challenges that leaders are experiencing, like you mentioned, going through a period of time where unfortunately, it seemed like we couldn't go a week without seeing, different forms of leadership failure.

01;10;44;10 - 01;11;09;19
Michael Martin
And not always, I'm careful to say, like, it's not always the integrity failures that we the tragic integrity failures, you know, on moral issues that you read about in the news, but also leaders that are burning out and dropping out of ministry and so what we began to hear more, of Mendi was, leaders who are really we are, always first to say that, like the CFA members have been the heroes of this story.

01;11;09;19 - 01;11;40;04
Michael Martin
Like there's nothing special about ECFA as an organization other than just we have tried to take a posture of being receptive to what God is doing and to be obedient to it. But I would really just continue to, call out that it's the leaders of ICSA member organizations who are the real heroes of this story. I mean, first of all, coming to ECFA for under the banner of what's historically always been there, you know, the commitment to integrity and accountability and best practices and good stewardship and all that, that helps enhance trust.

01;11;40;06 - 01;12;06;20
Michael Martin
But what we were hearing more Mindi was, you know, leaders of ECFA member organizations, also the Christian donor community that were saying some of these challenges that are happening in the leadership space, they really are having a negative impact on trust, trust and ministry. So if ECFA is mission is to enhance trust, you know, is there anything that ECFA can do to help?

01;12;06;20 - 01;12;26;16
Michael Martin
And then, you know, fast forward because there were years that were involved in the discernment process, like you mentioned, the change management of just listening and then discerning and then saying, okay, this is what we're going to do. We're going to move forward with the new standard and all of that. But, yeah, it's been it's been quite a journey that we've been on of seeing.

01;12;26;16 - 01;12;50;01
Michael Martin
I think those themes of, this is very important to trust. And, you know, you and I were even at that event, just a couple of weeks ago where, it was a lot of, major donors who were in the room. And as we were talking about this new standard, I mean, they were just nodding their heads in agreement of like, yes, we do look at the issue of, the health of leaders and good governance.

01;12;50;01 - 01;13;14;13
Michael Martin
And organizations like this is really important in our giving decisions. And then I think the last thing I would say, I mean, we could certainly go on. Right. But, thinking about governance differently from the standpoint of, you know, good governance, obviously a pillar of ECFA. And a lot of times we think of it as, you know, hey, if you have good governance in place, it's sort of a form of defense.

01;13;14;15 - 01;13;41;15
Michael Martin
We're going to try to prevent certain bad things from happening. But what I love about this conversation, too, when it comes to leader care, is that we're beginning to think about governance more. Also, as a form of offense or as being proactive. Like let's take steps that are proactive to help prayerfully right to to get ahead of what could later become, unfortunately, one of these, statistics or stories that we read about in the news.

01;13;41;17 - 01;14;10;18
Mindy Caliguire
Yeah, I and I have loved that that heart posture from the earliest days of me, coming into some of these early conversations with you all because that's my passion as well. It's like, we need to move out with deep empathy for where leaders are at and why things are so hard and not look at, a new standard as a sort of a little checklist of, do you know, did you do this?

01;14;10;18 - 01;14;35;12
Mindy Caliguire
Did you do that? That's not how do we get on the preventative side of surrounding leaders with the kind of support that probably should have always been there? We just everybody everybody's been making assumptions. I this is one of my favorite stories about a pastor who came to me and said, hey, I want your help to get our team to, to have a soul care plan.

01;14;35;12 - 01;14;56;19
Mindy Caliguire
I don't care what their plan is, and I'm not going to I'm not going to hunt down whether or not they did it. But I can, as their senior pastor, require my executive team and then our staff to have a plan that that is a starting point. And he goes, it's not my job to care for their soul is not my job to do all these things, but I can require them to have a plan.

01;14;56;19 - 01;15;27;27
Mindy Caliguire
And in talking to him, I just loved that he said, you know, Mindy, I realized my staff is making assumptions about me and my spiritual vitality, and I'm making assumptions about them. And what can I do as their leader to try to help with that? While I can try to say I can cause them to have some time and space to come up with a plan and then hands off from there like nothing invasive or weird, but like, I'm just going to anyway.

01;15;27;27 - 01;15;53;26
Mindy Caliguire
So that that was, I don't know, several years ago now. And they continue to make that commitment to each other and not make assumptions. And it's it's just fair to assume. And this is what the pandemic, I think revealed. It's fair to assume that there is a lot of very unique challenges and pressures that senior leaders are feeling and I think there's a misunderstanding.

01;15;53;26 - 01;16;11;12
Mindy Caliguire
It's like, oh, if you have a deep relationship with God and you're actively leading your ministry and everything in the ministry is up into the right or everything looking good, then you're good, right? You're good. And we don't have a way of saying, well, yes, of course your soul is safe, but are you? Well, how how are you right now?

01;16;11;14 - 01;16;42;19
Mindy Caliguire
And the tax, the leadership tax, the tax of what it costs to serve in these kinds of roles and some of the systems that we find ourselves in. We're just kidding ourselves if we're not thinking that's taking a toll on leaders, it is and it does. And so better to recognize that and then come alongside in this preventative strategy to say, how can we actually help this conversation, not be judgy about it.

01;16;42;19 - 01;17;02;01
Mindy Caliguire
Let's let's be redemptive. Let's look at the world as we see it and, and say, where can we intersect this, in a, in a meaningful way that could be helpful to people? So that's I've loved that about the posture of, this new standard really from the beginning.

01;17;02;04 - 01;17;31;18
Michael Martin
Yeah, that's been awesome. And I think, I think you'd say this, but I don't want to put words in your mouth. I am left with while there's still so much work left to be done, I think I'm just encouraged by a lot of the hope that we see. And, people saying, okay, like we're finally going to not just, look at some of these situations or challenges that are happening and sort of like sit back with our arms folded and say like, oh boy, here goes another one.

01;17;31;20 - 01;17;51;08
Michael Martin
But that actually it seems like from so many of the conversations we're having with leaders of CFA member organizations that are saying, thank goodness, I'm glad for this care that's going to be offered, the attention that's being focused on those boards that are excited to roll up their sleeves and get involved. I mean, it's just a really hopeful moment, which I'm excited about.

01;17;51;16 - 01;17;55;06
Michael Martin
Also light hearted point, the leadership tax. Okay.

01;17;55;06 - 01;17;57;19
Michael Martin
So, as a financial organization -

01;17;57;22 - 01;18;04;14
Michael Martin
Oh, I don't know that I've ever heard you use that term before, but we can relate to tax. So yeah.

01;18;04;14 - 01;18;32;01
Mindy Caliguire
You can actually you know who I heard you first heard that from. This is a this was a great, it was Jim Collins. Right. The good to great. And. Yeah. That's right. It's the last he talked about the leadership tax and some of the stuff that's just hard with a leadership role. And it might have all these great, you know, public facing things that that are truly enjoyable that we love and that everybody enjoys being part of.

01;18;32;03 - 01;18;40;01
Mindy Caliguire
And then there's just the hard stuff that's usually behind the scenes. And he just called it a leadership tax. And I've always remembered that. So yeah you're right.

01;18;40;04 - 01;18;43;13
Mindy Caliguire
So now in our new in our new relationship, we'll have to figure.

01;18;43;13 - 01;19;30;09
Mindy Caliguire
Out what to do about that. So yeah leadership tax. Yeah I, I, I do think like I keep thinking about this phrase that, that this the hopefulness that you're talking about Michael is, is is founded is well founded. I, I do believe we are at an inflection point. And I do believe that when people who are gifted and called by God, who have those gifts of leadership, like yourself and Jake and so many others on your leadership team, when those kinds of people fully alive to God, start setting their target, as we're going to change this in our culture, I think this could change those unhealthy leadership, current realities could change in

01;19;30;09 - 01;20;12;13
Mindy Caliguire
five years. And it is not a hand wringing. Impossible. This is never going to change moment. This is a this is that we are in a and and your and echo is part in that I think is quite significant. But the, the moment is now and it is an inflection point. And there are very senior leaders like yourself, but people who are leading massive networks of global churches, church planting organizations who are embedding words like healthy in they're raising up new leaders to do all the things that's not insignificant.

01;20;12;15 - 01;20;41;29
Mindy Caliguire
We are raising up healthy leaders to go and do all these things. And when you insert that word in there that starts to have operational, it should has start to have operational significance. We start measuring, we start, having an open conversation about health. And, you know, I'm just remembering, you know, you and I both know, a guy who's very involved in the leader care conversation leads a massive foundation.

01;20;42;01 - 01;21;08;09
Mindy Caliguire
He and I were having coffee in Boulder a couple of years ago, and he was asking my opinion on was was leader care needed? Is there is there a situation that this warrants a sort of a collective effort? And we were, you know, just kind of getting to know each other and all that kind of stuff. And I told him the whole thing about the ad and the pandemic, and it made everybody realize that for a long time we've been unhealthy, but now we can't really hide it anymore.

01;21;08;16 - 01;21;21;22
Mindy Caliguire
Like all these things. And he goes, so are you saying there's like kind of do you think there's like a window of opportunity right now? And we both to laugh at this to this day because I don't I don't know what I was thinking. I was maybe had a little bit too much caffeine that day.

01;21;21;27 - 01;21;23;29
Mindy Caliguire
At the coffee shop.

01;21;24;02 - 01;21;44;26
Mindy Caliguire
I was like, Darrell, this is not a window of opportunity. This is the there's a an explosion that's happened in the wall and it is on us to move in right now. Like this is a massive like this is a this is a breach in the wall. This is not a window of opportunity. This is it is time to move.

01;21;44;26 - 01;22;08;28
Mindy Caliguire
It's time to move with deliberation at scale in ways that are redemptive and helpful and start to change this narrative. And I, Michael, I think we're there. I mean, it hasn't happened. It hasn't happened yet. But I think the beginning days of this and my former employer, Scott Beck, used to always say this you got to pay attention to when the fix is in place.

01;22;09;01 - 01;22;32;24
Mindy Caliguire
Things aren't fixed yet, and I don't think the fix is fully in place yet. But I see your part in this. I see some of these large global networks starting to shift their language around health, and I'm like, we're getting there. We're getting to where it'll still take a while, but these are the kinds of things that start to put the fix in place.

01;22;32;24 - 01;22;36;04
Mindy Caliguire
I'm so excited about it. It's a sure I'm grateful. Yeah it is.

01;22;36;04 - 01;22;43;07
Michael Martin
Yes. Yeah. Awesome. Well, may God give us the opportunities to see that impact, I believe. Amen.

01;22;43;07 - 01;22;47;19
Mindy Caliguire
He will yeah I do, I do I agree with you.

01;22;47;21 - 01;23;14;20
Michael Martin
Well, I'm just thinking too, I know one of the ways that, I'm hoping that today's conversation will serve those who listen is not just a conversation that kind of a macro level of what's happening across the kingdom, the new ECFA standard around leader care, like all of that, is so good and so important. But I think also just shifting because, Mindy, as you know, there's a lot of leaders, right, who would be listening in on this conversation.

01;23;14;20 - 01;23;39;08
Michael Martin
And they're probably thinking about, their own lives and their own challenges and what is soul care look like for them. And so, one thing that I just, I'd love to kind of get some insights from you on are, what are some key signs that, you know, for a leader that their soul might be running on empty, kind of shifting the conversation to, I think for us as individual leaders as we think about this topic.

01;23;39;11 - 01;24;05;20
Mindy Caliguire
Yeah, yeah, that's been one of the things that I've had, really such an honor to talk with leaders, all over the world and mostly in the North American U.S context, but elsewhere as well, where they'll get really honest about what it feels like to be them. And those become symptoms of soul and neglect. Nobody ever sets out to neglect the well-being of their soul.

01;24;05;22 - 01;24;25;11
Mindy Caliguire
But it happens. We get running and gunning and we're doing the next thing, and we forget about God being with us and for us, and we sort of end up functioning. I mean, it's just it sounds like a terrible thing. And I think I've probably told you about this, but we, we talk, soul care sometimes about how we can end up with what I call.

01;24;25;11 - 01;24;54;14
Mindy Caliguire
And I'm sure it's not original with me. I think it might have been Parker Palmer or Gerald May, or one of those guys who talked about functional atheism, where in Christian leadership devoted Christian leadership, resolute to the cause, to the right theology, to beliefs, to the Bible, to the person of Jesus, we can end up functioning as if God isn't really part of the picture.

01;24;54;17 - 01;25;20;12
Mindy Caliguire
And so functional atheism isn't a belief system. It's more when we start functioning as if the kingdom isn't real, God isn't at work, and we have to go figure out, figure it all out ourselves, which becomes a burden far too great for any one of us to carry, especially because most of us got called into ministry, into assignments that are so much bigger than ourselves.

01;25;20;15 - 01;25;43;21
Mindy Caliguire
I think, so much more than what we could guarantee the outcomes of, even in an ideal situation. And we can never guarantee outcomes because there's never an ideal situation, but we take the weight of it on ourselves in a way that is more than what we can shoulder. And so when we've done that, when we start functioning and I have great I mean, I've been there, you've probably bet.

01;25;43;21 - 01;26;02;07
Mindy Caliguire
I mean, it's like this is a we don't throw our hands across our mouth going, oh, how could that happen? We go like, oh yeah, this is us. This is what happens. But if we don't sort of arrest that when we sing those symptoms, they can start to get embedded deeper and deeper in how and how we function.

01;26;02;07 - 01;26;30;04
Mindy Caliguire
So here's a couple of those. Just to answer your original question, some of the things I've heard from leaders over the years that I would call symptoms of soul neglect, soul losing touch, real time with God are, it just some debilitating, fear, that kind of panic that you wake up with in the morning before you hit the ground and, there's really, anger can begin to take hold in us.

01;26;30;04 - 01;26;51;14
Mindy Caliguire
Now, both of those are just normal human emotions and are a sign, actually, of a healthy soul that can experience anger or feel fear. But they show up on a list, like. Like a list of soul neglect. When when we're we're they're forming us or shaping us. We're becoming angry people or making our decisions out of anger or fear.

01;26;51;16 - 01;27;26;27
Mindy Caliguire
And that is when, you know, anger devolves into bitterness and resentment and contempt and disdain and those those are deeper where anger is becoming embedded in us. And it's how we're making decisions. It's how was leading a team, is how we're functioning or fear the same way other symptoms that I hear a lot, when I'm working with individuals and teams, you know, usually vision leaders, visionary leaders, they have a pretty strong sense of the future.

01;27;26;27 - 01;27;53;22
Mindy Caliguire
What's true north, where are we headed, etc. they get fuzzy. They lose touch with, did I really hear God from here on this? What's it? You know there's is too much. There's too. They they lose their energy. They get apathy. Apathetic. A lot of times, like one leader remember saying one of his symptoms of soul neglect as he was thinking about this exercise?

01;27;53;24 - 01;28;16;11
Mindy Caliguire
Was he goes, when I've gone too long before getting a haircut. And it was I liked the inside and obviously nobody would put getting your haircut on a regular basis is the guarantee to a healthy soul. But what he was connecting was when his life gets too busy, he stops doing basic things that just are part of being human.

01;28;16;13 - 01;28;42;29
Mindy Caliguire
And a lot of leaders, for the sake of the call, will ignore their own needs. They ignore the needs of their family. They ignore the needs of their team and and get into this limitless delusion that is not reality. And so stuff starts to fall apart and break when we act like there's no limit. And, yeah. So I, I'm kind of blanking.

01;28;42;29 - 01;29;12;21
Mindy Caliguire
There's, there's so many of these different symptoms I'm trying to recreate the list that I often see in my head when I'm with a group. The fear, the anger, the apathy. Oh, judgment. People find themselves to be super judgy. Usually it goes external, noticing what everybody else is doing wrong. But also, that same judgy voice is what's full of self recrimination, self-hatred.

01;29;12;23 - 01;29;36;24
Mindy Caliguire
And so that kind of constant critic voice is not the voice of God. And that's a symptom that, that maybe all is not well with, with one's soul. Yeah. That the lack of self care, not that that becomes a new idol by any stretch, but, you know, are you eating? Are you taking care of yourself?

01;29;36;24 - 01;29;52;06
Mindy Caliguire
Are you getting your haircut if you need to, like, whatever, whatever those things are, are things that can be noticeable over time because it's hard if you just directly say to somebody, how's your soul? Like or like, I don't know, it's I don't know, it's deep.

01;29;52;08 - 01;29;53;15
Mindy Caliguire
I don't really know. How do I.

01;29;53;15 - 01;30;24;15
Mindy Caliguire
Know? I don't know how my soul is. We get easily irritated. We get, like I said, judgy, we can become very self-focused, very prideful, very, manipulative and controlling. Those are some of the symptoms that come up. It's not a pretty list usually. You you know, I I'll work with a group and we'll, we'll develop a list like this and write it all out and.

01;30;24;17 - 01;30;32;02
Mindy Caliguire
It's usually the moment when people are going like, well, how am I here in this self-care thing? I don't need this. And then.

01;30;32;04 - 01;30;36;15
Mindy Caliguire
They're like, oh, oh, shoot. And then they're like.

01;30;36;15 - 01;30;40;24
Michael Martin
We're going to take one of these at a time.

01;30;40;26 - 01;30;59;18
Mindy Caliguire
You know what's so funny about that, though? And I really want to get to this side is our people are listening, and I hope you're still engaged with us, because those symptoms are utterly predictable. Those lists are about being human. And when we've lost this real time, in the moment connection with God. But they are not the end of the story.

01;30;59;21 - 01;31;34;10
Mindy Caliguire
And one of the great things to do with people is have them think about, conversely, what are their symptoms of soul health? Yeah, symptoms of when their soul is receiving. It's life from God, which is the vision of John 15, right? It's like we are of a branch. He is the vine. We receive our life from him. And when that connection is strong, and as it should be, the life force of the God of the universe flows through that point of connection and into us these measly little branches and causes whatever to happen at whatever time however God wants.

01;31;34;10 - 01;32;04;28
Mindy Caliguire
But that is, he is our source. And so when that connection is strong, it is wild. The things that happen through ordinary human beings alive to the living God. So what I love having people do is think about and you can do this if you want. Think about a time in your, in your history with God when your sense of connection was really strong.

01;32;05;04 - 01;32;24;03
Mindy Caliguire
And this is not like, how much Bible knowledge did you have? How much theology have you had, how much ministry, leadership experience? None of those things are what I'm asking about. I'm only asking about what is your real time, in the moment sense of connection with God. When was a time where that was really, really strong? It could have been decades ago.

01;32;24;03 - 01;33;01;10
Mindy Caliguire
Could have been last week, could have been right now, whenever. But then. I love to have people reflect and think what was true about me in that season? What flowed out of me? Michael, you have a roomful. I mean, it could be hundreds of people, could be ten. It doesn't matter when people have scanned their history with God and found one representative episode where their sense of connection was God, they could have been walking across campus while they were in college, and they just were flooded with this sense of God's love that he was with them, that he was for them.

01;33;01;12 - 01;33;21;17
Mindy Caliguire
It could have been, you know, a season that was well supported by certain spiritual practices or relationships or could have been a season when all hope was breaking loose and the wheels were coming off and everything felt wrong. Everything around them was wrong. But somehow, in the midst of it, they knew that. They knew that they knew that God was with them and for them.

01;33;21;19 - 01;33;35;10
Mindy Caliguire
And when people reflect and think, well, what kind of person was I then what flowed out of me? I don't know if you want to tell us anything yet, because I'm going to tell you what I what I've heard from people. But did you have anything you wanted to add?

01;33;35;13 - 01;33;37;22
Michael Martin
No, I think this is good. I don't want to.

01;33;37;24 - 01;33;40;28
Michael Martin
I don't - I don't want to stop you. You just keep going.

01;33;41;09 - 01;34;05;01
Mindy Caliguire
I just I thought, oh, you're like, yes, that's what happened to me. And I was this, Michael. It is. I can't write fast enough when I'm with a group. I can't write fast enough because we're pouring out of this group of people is in any, confidence, boldness, generosity, joy, faith. I can hear God.

01;34;05;01 - 01;34;35;09
Mindy Caliguire
I have, humility, brokenness. I mean, it just goes. It just goes on and on, and it's usually some mash up of literally the fruit of the spirit. People will describe patients. They'll describe, love, that they, they were marked by just love for their fellow person, whoever it was. Peace. Peace that they had, this peace that passes all understanding.

01;34;35;09 - 01;34;59;29
Mindy Caliguire
That's what they were marked by. The other sort of category of what we hear. And this all makes sense if you think about it. But what people self-report is stuff about their what you would think of as their vocation. So leaders will say, I have clear vision, artists will say creativity. Others will say generosity, which is one of the spiritual gifts, right?

01;34;59;29 - 01;35;24;21
Mindy Caliguire
Others have wisdom, they have insight. They have evangelism like flows out of them, like all of these things which are so desirable, we all want to show up with those things. We do. But when we disconnect from God not realizing it, that meaning too. But when we disconnect, we lose access because the spiritual gifts that we learn in Corinthians are a manifestation of the spirit.

01;35;24;21 - 01;35;52;13
Mindy Caliguire
They're not something that somebody hands you like. You're, you know, whatever you're holding. And now I can go use that spiritual gift however I want. That's not how spiritual gifts work. They are, they are a result of the indwelling of the living God. And similarly, the fruit of the spirit is not a thing that is on your to do list to go figure out joy and artificial muscle up to joy.

01;35;52;16 - 01;36;18;19
Mindy Caliguire
If that doesn't work, we don't need any more Christians muscling up to joy. What we need are people who are deeply connected to the living God. And when and as we, our joy just flows. It's a fruit of the spirit, not a a thing to go achieve a doing. Yeah, it doesn't work. It just doesn't work. Even if our best intentions and you know, here it is still almost the beginning of a year.

01;36;18;22 - 01;36;34;16
Mindy Caliguire
You know, New Year's resolutions. We're all coming up with new workout routines and new kind of things. I didn't do that, but a lot of times it's at least my Instagram feed is full of it. And self-control is a fruit of the spirit.

01;36;34;18 - 01;36;35;00
Michael Martin
Right.

01;36;35;01 - 01;37;15;02
Mindy Caliguire
It is, it is, it is just it. We are not very good at self-improvement projects. It's just not the, the goal of transformation, of soul restoration is not a self-improvement project. And so when we, when we see that contrast of the symptoms of disconnection and those very compelling natural, flowing symptoms of what I'll call soul health when our souls are connected in real time to God, man, that's that.

01;37;15;02 - 01;37;57;02
Mindy Caliguire
It doesn't take a PhD in spiritual formation. It doesn't take a six month sabbatical. Those things are great if you can do it. But the God's presence is as near as our breath. The reconnecting happens in a moment. So and then we find ways of staying connected. And that's how we care for our souls. And that presents a very different kind of leadership that is not, inert to the challenges that are going to come with leadership that's not, you know, that's that's what we're signing up for, is we get to solve problems and make change.

01;37;57;02 - 01;38;15;00
Mindy Caliguire
And those things are hard, but we're not preventing the things that are hard. We just have a different way of being connected to God that allows us to be present to those challenges and not take on more weight from it than what we then what God's asking us to hold.

01;38;15;03 - 01;38;43;24
Michael Martin
Amen. Well, I pray for all who are listening that they really latch on to that. Mindy. And you've inspired me. Okay, so to respond personally to what you just said, I think for me, it was experiencing greater freedom. You know, you talked about earlier that I had forgotten you use that term before, but that idea of functional atheism, because the truth is, last year I think I was going through like, was kind of an I don't know, it probably was not an irony.

01;38;43;24 - 01;39;07;21
Michael Martin
This is like all in God's providence, right in his timing. But, experiencing what I would say were like some of the greatest challenges, in my own leadership and experiencing feeling some of that weight that you talked about and the heaviness that comes. And I think you've been challenged me personally at a certain point. Well, the truth is, I probably came to you for help was like, Mindy.

01;39;07;23 - 01;39;14;14
Mindy Caliguire
This is really hard! And not that we -

01;39;14;17 - 01;39;24;15
Mindy Caliguire
We love doing hard things. And hard is not bad. It's just the right thing is to reach out when things feel hard and be like, okay. Anyway, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but yeah.

01;39;24;16 - 01;39;43;17
Michael Martin
No, that's okay. So anyway, I just was going to jump in and respond to that personally too, and just say, this whole conversation around soul care, the work that UCF's doing with this new standard, I mean, I can just speak to the benefits of it, even for me personally and say, without being dramatic or anything like that.

01;39;43;17 - 01;40;09;14
Michael Martin
But just the truth is, it is so changed my life. Just some of the opportunities that God has given through, this committee that ECF has established looking to resources around soul care. And I think in ways that I really didn't even realize that I needed, which I guess gets back to your point about functional atheism, because I would never set out to say like, of course I'm not an atheist, but like, no, no way.

01;40;09;14 - 01;40;29;14
Michael Martin
In which I was living and leading and the burdens that I was carrying and all those things just to become aware of those. And then I'm so thankful for the grace of God, of going on a journey of saying, okay, like for me, how did I get here? What does that look like? What is this better way of living and leading and all of those things that you talked about?

01;40;29;14 - 01;40;32;18
Michael Martin
So that would be my experience as well.

01;40;32;20 - 01;41;00;24
Mindy Caliguire
Yeah. You and you have been such a, how do I want to say like a you saw the irony. There was an irony. It's like, here's the work you're doing to put in something in place that honors and respects the heavy load that leaders are carrying and tries to and tries to do something constructive and preventative and helpful along those lines.

01;41;00;24 - 01;41;22;00
Mindy Caliguire
Right. So that's the work you're doing and holding. And I you and I were getting to know each other through that process. And then through that process, you're actually having to deal with the same things that any leader anywhere, is having to deal with when things get hard. Because any noble work, any good work in our world is going to get hard.

01;41;22;00 - 01;41;50;15
Mindy Caliguire
Anything that we're contending for, let us not be surprised that it's hard, that things, that there's spiritual opposition to the things that we're doing. And so you're you're putting words to, oh, wow, I am fully committed to this. I'm not wavering, but oh my goodness, this is this is this. And so for us to begin this almost like, inception kind of conversation where.

01;41;50;17 - 01;41;59;19
Mindy Caliguire
You know, it's like - it kind of felt that way. It's like, all right, so we're talking about soul care, and now we need to talk about soul care. Right. So we're talking.

01;41;59;19 - 01;42;17;07
Mindy Caliguire
About leader care. And now we need to talk about leader care. But again to your credit the whole CFA board was already proactive. They had already put a committee together. Can you talk about like how that decision came about and what kinds of things that meant for you?

01;42;17;10 - 01;42;42;05
Michael Martin
Yeah, absolutely. So in our context, which I feel like the the disclaimer, right, is and we're even careful about this in the standard of saying X phase desire with this new standard is not to be prescriptive about what it looks like, you know, and saying, like, every organization is, is the same or cookie cutter or any of that.

01;42;42;08 - 01;43;09;04
Michael Martin
So I share it with that disclaimer. You know, what ECFA ended up implementing with our board was, yeah, in the spirit of, I think practicing what we're preaching is hearing, okay, as we're hearing from ECFA about the need for the boards of organizations to more intentionally come alongside leaders, help not just care about what it is that you do for the organization, but also who you are.

01;43;09;04 - 01;43;37;21
Michael Martin
And Christ come alongside of leaders being intentional and creating kind of a plan for the leaders overall well-being. That can be done in so many different ways. In our context, what ECFA ended up doing, which I think, we do have the unique blessing of being able to see across over 2700 different organizations, like, what are some of the things that we can glean from all these different examples, and how do we want to implement this internally?

01;43;37;23 - 01;44;01;05
Michael Martin
So, ECFA ended up establishing what's called a committee on the president. And this is a group that meets, with me on a periodic basis. This is outside the boardroom. It's in an informal context. And, I'd say it's, you know, people that serve on the board. It can also be former board members, too, by the way, in our context, like people who've got that history with the CFA.

01;44;01;07 - 01;44;21;05
Michael Martin
But that really have a pastoral heart. And so I'd say this is also something that if you're in a place where you're trying to determine kind of who within the organization owns this, this is a great sort of opportunity for people with different spiritual gifts to serve in a capacity that may not look like typical governance.

01;44;21;05 - 01;44;44;22
Michael Martin
Right. But people who have a pastoral heart, I'm getting together with this group, at least on a quarterly basis, in touch with them much more frequently than not. But many I've just been blown away by, their investment. Not just in me professionally, but also as a brother in Christ. I'd say shepherding. Just asking.

01;44;44;25 - 01;45;01;16
Michael Martin
They're not only great encouragers, but also at times it's like that healthy amount of challenge, too. And, it was around the same time that you and I had that conversation. I think I reached out to you as a result of a conversation that I had with the Committee on the president where, you know, we were just talking.

01;45;01;16 - 01;45;19;15
Michael Martin
They were very good to listen to. I was opening up about some of the challenges that I was experiencing at that time, and just how I was processing all that and navigating it, seeking their wisdom. And I'll never forget, you know, being a part of that committee meeting where they had really been patient to listen and care and all those kinds of things.

01;45;19;18 - 01;45;40;24
Michael Martin
But then the question that came back to me, or I guess it was really, a statement from somebody who served on that committee and just said, Michael, I really feel like you are taking on too much responsibility. And I was like, wow, I got to process that for a second. You don't ever expect, like, your board to come and say you're taking too much responsibility for a thing.

01;45;41;01 - 01;46;03;19
Michael Martin
But I think it comes back to Mindy. The, it's that same theme of what you were talking about earlier, how for a variety of different reasons, leaders can find themselves getting into a place of putting more responsibility on themselves or carrying more burden or whatever it may be, than is actually what God is asking us to do, what our organizations are asking us to do.

01;46;03;21 - 01;46;26;21
Michael Martin
And, so anyway, I think it was that conversation with that committee that then had me reaching out to you and saying, okay, in humility, like, I want to examine this. You were good to offer some books that were helpful and recommended some different practices, including spiritual direction, where it was like, this was not like, once, once in time kind of moment.

01;46;26;21 - 01;46;56;07
Michael Martin
But it's it's been a journey that I've been on of discovering those things. And I think the, the, the major takeaway for me spiritually is just been especially in that Matthew 11 passage of the easy yoke of Christ and what that looks like. And for me, asking some of those questions, really asking the Holy Spirit to reveal to me, if I do feel a sense of heaviness or burden or I'm carrying some of those things, and that's not the will of God for us.

01;46;56;07 - 01;47;17;24
Michael Martin
If we look at that passage, Jesus calls us to a very different way of our walk with him, our work with him, too. And so just, doing some reflection around how did I get to a point of carrying some of those things, but let's go through a process of trading them off. And it just been it's been so transformative and freeing.

01;47;17;27 - 01;47;42;28
Mindy Caliguire
I love that I it makes me so happy. And I think this is precisely the issue that every leader listening, sometimes we don't put words around it if we haven't really stopped long enough to go, what is the weight I'm carrying? Because of course, we're responsible for things or responsible for we're employees. We have we have responsibilities, etc. to each other, to the organizations.

01;47;43;00 - 01;48;07;20
Mindy Caliguire
But the very subtle shift is when we start taking the weight of outcomes on our shoulders and the being responsible to do the work is one thing, but letting go at the right time so that God, we're present to do our part and then we're not taking on more, usually has to do with something related to outcomes.

01;48;07;20 - 01;48;34;20
Mindy Caliguire
And that was the book I recommended was Dallas Willard's, renovation of the heart. And in in his chapter on the Saul, he really talks about how, how easy it is for us to assume that wait for outcomes, but how terribly toxic it is for our souls. And so there's, you know, this is the very, important it's nuanced.

01;48;34;20 - 01;48;54;23
Mindy Caliguire
It's not like this doesn't lend itself to, like, soundbites and quick thinking. These are things that that's why spiritual direction can be such a helpful practice in times when we're sensing the the weight and we don't really know, like we're pretty sure we say yes to the things that God called us to do. But now it feels crippling.

01;48;54;23 - 01;49;12;00
Mindy Caliguire
And now what what where what's what's amiss in this situation? If Jesus is inviting me to shoulder a yoke that could be easy and a burden that could be light, like where? Where am I? So, I appreciate your authenticity, Michael. And talking about this.

01;49;12;02 - 01;49;33;22
Michael Martin
Yeah. We'll see if you can help me with this, too, because there's something else that's kind of on my heart to share. But let me see if I can say it in a way that makes sense. So I think one of the big takeaways to, for me from that season was, yes, there are external things that we experience in leadership that are challenging.

01;49;33;25 - 01;49;56;07
Michael Martin
But I think for me, going through all of that process, what really became clear was it wasn't even just the external factors or forces or challenges or whatever it is that we're facing. But in so many ways, it was actually how I was coming into those that it was like, that's actually where the heaviness comes into play.

01;49;56;08 - 01;50;23;27
Michael Martin
Like it wasn't even God doesn't guarantee, in fact, well, he actually guarantees the opposite. He doesn't guarantee that we're not going to experience hard things, like we're actually promised that we're going to experience those thing. But then yet there's also this contrast with Jesus is also so lovingly and graciously saying, you know, come to me, walk with me, walk with me, you know, see how I do it, learning these unforced rhythms of grace.

01;50;24;00 - 01;50;55;17
Michael Martin
So we're not we're not promised kind of, easy ride or stress free living or any of those things. We're actually promised that we will go through hard things, but I think, how we're coming into those situations, like our own health as leaders, what we need to own personally. And then the way that people in that community around us, that's where isolation is so dangerous, because if we were left to try to figure these things out on our own, I'm going to be so lost.

01;50;55;19 - 01;50;58;19
Michael Martin
And that's why you can see, I mean, that's really the trap of the enemy.

01;50;58;21 - 01;51;20;25
Mindy Caliguire
It is. It is. And, you know, we all even in in the human sense, we all need mirrors, right? You can't see. None of us can see ourselves, and we certainly don't see ourselves accurately. And so they have a relationship that helps mirror back to you. How does it sound when you say it that way? Why did you why did you go into that meeting with that assumption?

01;51;20;25 - 01;51;52;01
Mindy Caliguire
And that helps us, reflect and allow God into those places that are our deep, better interior places? Yeah. So what else, has what else would you say has been, part of your soul care journey? Like, not like just caring for your soul. Learning this way of life. What are some rhythms or practices? What else has been helpful to you as you're integrating that not only into your life, but into your leadership?

01;51;52;02 - 01;51;54;07
Mindy Caliguire
What does that looking like for you?

01;51;54;10 - 01;52;06;20
Michael Martin
Yeah, and before I respond to that, I also want to be sure not to forget to mention this, which is, if I've not been clear enough, sort of it's not the end of the story because we're all obviously right in process and.

01;52;06;20 - 01;52;07;17
Mindy Caliguire
We're still.

01;52;07;19 - 01;52;09;04
Michael Martin
Daily in the formation.

01;52;09;05 - 01;52;09;21
Mindy Caliguire
Always.

01;52;09;28 - 01;52;34;20
Michael Martin
To become more like Jesus. But, I do just want to share as, hopefully this is a testimony or it's a matter of hope to other people who are. And it's what you talked about earlier, too many of that exchange between, for me personally experiencing, a heaviness or a stress or anxiety around things to now, like so much more freedom.

01;52;34;22 - 01;53;07;02
Michael Martin
But God has allowed me to experience in my life. And that's impacted not just me personally, but I also believe professionally, and how it's all connected. But anyway, I just say that as a matter of like, hope that, when we lean into all that God has for us too. I guess the other piece of it would be to say, I think you mentioned a book that's been, instrumental kind of in a lot of my thinking.

01;53;07;02 - 01;53;32;27
Michael Martin
So to Dallas Willard and renovation of the heart and how, salvation is not just about your eternal destiny, but it's also about deliverance from all the things that are broken in this world. And, you know, he's so good to kind of break down all the different pieces of if the greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God with all of your heart and soul, mind strength, like all those different things, actually taking those piece by piece and saying like, what are those pieces of your being?

01;53;32;27 - 01;53;49;01
Michael Martin
And how does that, how do they all sort of work together? And what are the practices that are helpful in all those cases? But anyway, I say all that to say, just as a matter of hope, like that is something that I have experienced, am experiencing. I pray that for other leaders too, that they'll have the opportunity for that.

01;53;49;01 - 01;54;16;05
Michael Martin
But I guess your question was about what have been some of the other practices. I mean, I think, for one, just finding some of those books and resources that have been meaningful to me of, I think because, you know, I've had the blessing of growing up in church and pretty much being a Christian my whole life. But to be able to have language around some of these things, understanding my walk with the Lord in a different way, those have been really helpful and beneficial.

01;54;16;08 - 01;54;57;01
Michael Martin
I know I've shared this with you before, but something else I've really taken away from this season is the practice of praying, Psalm 23 and the Lord's Prayer on a regular basis. That's been really beneficial. And then, spiritual direction would be another, another one of those as well of, those of you who haven't experienced that before, maybe you could describe it a lot better than what I would describe it, but just being able to have someone that you're meeting with on a regular basis who's, not only listening to you, but also having an ear towards what the Holy Spirit may be saying to you or have for you

01;54;57;01 - 01;55;25;22
Michael Martin
in a season. And someone who's trained in different spiritual disciplines and practices to be able to come alongside you in the journey that you're on. That's been really beneficial for me. I won't say it's actually been easy, like some of those some of those meetings, one of the most challenging things is, is to be on the other end of a screen, sort of like this with somebody who their job is to not really talk back at you much, but to just sit there and to listen and to be very quiet.

01;55;25;22 - 01;55;50;25
Michael Martin
Like that's actually been a challenging thing for me to be in a meeting like that, because it causes you to really share, like what's on your heart process a lot. And also, have one of the things that is probably the most precious for any of us, which is time, actual time to sit in some of the silence and take the opportunity to hear what the Holy Spirit might be saying to us.

01;55;50;25 - 01;55;53;26
Michael Martin
So anyway, that's a little.

01;55;53;26 - 01;55;54;19
Mindy Caliguire
Sad.

01;55;54;21 - 01;55;55;20
Michael Martin
Yeah.

01;55;55;22 - 01;56;32;08
Mindy Caliguire
That's as well said. Yeah. I want to go back to your comment about hope. Because maybe there are some leaders listening in today that are just in those places of desolation that are hard, that are they feel maybe stuck or isolated or, you know, trapped in some ways. And, I know in my own life. And you're giving testimony as well when we face those things for being calm and, and and and allowing our, our souls to kind of go, oh, this is hard.

01;56;32;08 - 01;57;03;13
Mindy Caliguire
This is doesn't this doesn't sound feels a little off here. We it can bring us into a whole different season. That opens up a whole new pathway. And it's not the end of the story when we're in exhaustion or isolation or burnout, it actually lights a path in to flourishing. And that's what you're describing right now, is that, and it has implications on your, with your girls and your team.

01;57;03;13 - 01;57;28;16
Mindy Caliguire
And, you know, I think everyone listening, you know, what it's like when you're showing up to a meeting and everything in you feels cramped and small and striving. And on the other hand, when you show up at a meeting and maybe there's hard things that need to be talked about, but you're showing up with your shoulders down, able to laugh a little bit, able to listen without feeling threatened, able to like it.

01;57;28;16 - 01;57;46;24
Mindy Caliguire
Just we are completely different people in those two circumstances, and we lead very differently, and we create all kinds of space for God to do this next new thing. And I love what you described about the discomfort in sitting in silence like that is just.

01;57;46;24 - 01;57;50;05
Michael Martin
I'm glad I'm not the only one.

01;57;50;08 - 01;58;27;07
Mindy Caliguire
No, it was great! And and and you also were putting words around why it can be valuable because our worlds are so loud. And I think sometimes, even in the Christian church world, we think if we just fill it with more noise, that's somehow good. And actually our souls need to learn how to get really quiet and lean in and listen not only to maybe what someone is saying or what God is saying, but sometimes we need to get that quiet just to listen to what our own soul what is what is our deeper desire in this situation?

01;58;27;07 - 01;59;00;12
Mindy Caliguire
What is our, sense of of calling or, identity in this thing? And how am I showing up? And if we're not reflective on those things, we just keep barreling through whatever is daily life and and we're missing out on so much. So I just, I would just encourage whoever might be feeling in a rough spot, to make sure you do take that time to, like, get quiet, pay attention to what?

01;59;00;12 - 01;59;16;23
Mindy Caliguire
What is your soul trying to say and what would it mean for you to actually listen to that and take take care of it and take care of that part of you? Yeah.

01;59;16;25 - 02;00;01;03
Michael Martin
And surround yourself with, people who can speak into your life, which I think is a good segue, just coming back, maybe full circle around this idea of, what do you cfas doing around this new standard? And I think uniquely, where we feel like we can make a difference, which is in the space of Christ centered governance and how the boards of organizations have really a unique opportunity, we would say responsibility, to be able to come alongside leaders and, again, not just care about all that they're doing for the organization, but also who they are in Christ.

02;00;01;06 - 02;00;34;23
Michael Martin
If you think about it, they have a really unique opportunity to be able to provide help for leaders, to sit in certain spaces with leaders that maybe no one else does. But I think, as you think about it, Mindy, just coming back to some of the practicalities around leader care, I shared a little bit of my story earlier and being so blessed to have a board that has been very supportive has taken action of setting up this committee and having the right people in some of those seats, and the wonderful blessing that all of that has been to me.

02;00;34;23 - 02;01;16;00
Michael Martin
But, there may be leaders who are out there that feel like they're in a different spot or a different situation or, maybe organizations again, who they're just taking this on for the first time. I do think creating the kind of environment where, it's a trusted environment, it's a safe place to share, that it actually creates, a meaningful opportunity for leaders to be able to share what's going on kind of in their world, you know, what are some what are some key ingredients, you think, to having the kind of environment or a culture between a board and a leader where those kinds of conversations can actually happen?

02;01;16;03 - 02;01;58;21
Mindy Caliguire
Yeah. What a that is the million dollar question on a lot of this. Because that relationship is so important to the well-being of the leader and to the outcomes of the ministry and the organization. And, you know, as you were talking about the ideal kind of and what you have with your board is being such a, a wonderful and very safe place, because that was the one thing that's coming to mind, is people need a safe context in order to have these authentic and real conversations about, about how they're doing and what would help them stay in a place of health.

02;01;58;23 - 02;02;30;02
Mindy Caliguire
And, you know, it is what I was thinking about is your time is when you hear some people talk about marriage and the way it should be and the way, you know, there's so much trust and so much love and so much believing in each other and having each other's backs, which all sounds great. But sometimes if you or somebody who's listening is in a place where that's not their current reality and they can't even imagine what that would be like, it's like, that's what I fear for organizations or leaders where they're bored.

02;02;30;02 - 02;03;01;09
Mindy Caliguire
Relationship has not been a safe place. And as much as we want to level up the care of leaders throughout the ecosystem, this is an opportunity to level up the ways that boards relate to each other and to leaders. And sometimes those board relationships can be very painful, where leaders feel they're constantly being judged or they they don't have a yeah, it's just it is a very interesting dynamic.

02;03;01;12 - 02;03;33;09
Mindy Caliguire
And so my deep desire is that this is an invitation to level up how we do governance and how we do leadership, and how we become the kind of safe places through whom God can move and again, it all can happen. We have to decide that that's what we want, and we have to decide we're not going to be okay anymore with these adversarial, contentious relationships between boards, board members and leaders.

02;03;33;11 - 02;03;57;06
Mindy Caliguire
And somebody has to take the plunge and start to say, this needs to be a new reality. And one of the simplest things a board could do to start to get to safety. Right? This is not it's not going to be an overnight thing if there's been a history of some bad behavior. But and I'm not pointing fingers, it could be on anybody's part.

02;03;57;06 - 02;04;21;13
Mindy Caliguire
But one of the best things that a board can do during some of their time when they're together, ideally face to face. And I've been on boards that did this really, really well. I didn't realize how spoiled I was until I started here, that this wasn't the norm. Is just get people telling their stories, get people talking about their actual life outside the boardroom, outside the organization.

02;04;21;15 - 02;04;40;18
Mindy Caliguire
And when I mean, that's something we all enter into, into into one another's stories. Where did you grow up? What was your family of origin? Doesn't need to be your deepest, darkest secret. You know that. Like where who are you behind? You know, here we're doing behind the seal. But each of us. Who are you behind the eyes?

02;04;40;20 - 02;05;00;13
Mindy Caliguire
Who are you? Beyond what I could Google about you. How are we having a kind of conversation that allows us to recognize the humanity in each other, even if we don't agree with things right now, how do we have a conversation about what it's like to be me in this situation, or what it was like to me as a child or whatever?

02;05;00;15 - 02;05;24;22
Mindy Caliguire
And what like, for example, one, one board I served on the, the executive director of the organization always had the first thing we do as a board when we would gather three times a year, we would have a casual dinner and then like just a fireside chat. And it was like three simple questions, like, since the last time we were together, what was a high since we last didn't we're together.

02;05;24;22 - 02;05;47;08
Mindy Caliguire
What was a low? Just very simple things. And then some goofy thing. Like what was your family's favorite food at Christmas time or something like that? That was just a little. But it gets you telling stories, and all of a sudden the person who's sitting across from you isn't just the leader of this organization. They're human. And they had siblings, and they have a story.

02;05;47;08 - 02;06;11;29
Mindy Caliguire
And we remember stories differently. We relate to people differently when we understand stories. So anyway, this might sound like a really small thing, but this is actually it is never wasted time on your board agenda. When you create space for people to connect in a more human way than just the X's and O's of what must be done for the organization.

02;06;11;29 - 02;06;45;11
Mindy Caliguire
And when you've done that, it's kind of like caring for your own soul as a leader. But this is like an up a group reality when you create for that space, when you create that space for a team to connect at that less operational and more personal way, it has outcome, it changes the outcomes of how long it takes us to make a decision, how how long we have to debate a thing before we can come to consensus, if that's needed, how we edge around each other.

02;06;45;11 - 02;07;02;00
Mindy Caliguire
If I truly can't agree to that. But we don't need a unanimous vote so everyone doesn't have to hate me. If I had a different view, I can just say I'm not going to vote for that thing. But the organization's deciding to move forward and we're going to we're going to disagree and commit, you know, whatever it is.

02;07;02;02 - 02;07;04;18
Mindy Caliguire

02;07;04;20 - 02;07;33;25
Mindy Caliguire
Building safety in those relationships is going to be a really important. And it may feel hard, but important and amazing fruit down the road to allow, these kinds of conversations to happen. It will have certainly it will bear fruit in the life of the leader themselves, but it will bear fruit in the lives of the vote board members.

02;07;33;25 - 02;07;42;03
Mindy Caliguire
It will bear fruit in the life of that organization and that ministry. That work is never wasted.

02;07;42;05 - 02;08;16;00
Michael Martin
Amen. I couldn't underscore that enough. I think it was it was a covey who says, like organizations move at the speed of trust. That would be true of board meetings and boards and all of that. I think the other, thought that I had to. Mindy, which is, is is I think, a really important one for us to bring out, too, which is, in this new standard, ECFA is not expecting boards to take on, unrealistic, responsibility for, soul care.

02;08;16;00 - 02;08;55;27
Michael Martin
So, in other words, You know, as I was describing earlier, I mean, so even ECFA, creating this committee on the president, there's definitely dialog and conversation and things that takes place in that setting, which is good and very helpful. But also, when needed, bringing in the right kind of resources or serving a leader who might say, hey, you know, I could really benefit from whether it's marriage counseling or leadership coaching or spiritual direction or like, oh, training said yeah, yeah.

02;08;55;27 - 02;09;16;25
Michael Martin
Yes. It's not asking boards to become sole care for leaders, but for them to be committed to getting, resources into the hands of leaders or the kind of help that they need is being willing to, as a board, come alongside and provide that support for leaders. I think that's an important distinction, right?

02;09;16;28 - 02;09;35;25
Mindy Caliguire
Yeah. Yeah. This is not, a situation where it would be appropriate for that kind of overreach, where, you know, now we are your solution to your soul's health. No. It is we care about your soul's health, and we care enough to say, how are you and what would help you?

02;09;35;28 - 02;09;39;08
Mindy Caliguire
But we'll walk with you not.

02;09;39;08 - 02;10;00;13
Mindy Caliguire
As the provider, but as somebody who is, from a governance perspective, needing to make sure to the best of our ability that you are on a path to to holistic health, whole person health. Yeah, there is that's kind of, you know, coming full circle back to that story I was saying about that pastor at the beginning who he is.

02;10;00;13 - 02;10;28;24
Mindy Caliguire
It was it wasn't his job to care for the souls of his team or for their managers care for the souls of their team. That that that can get really wonky, actually, in hierarchical structures, of course, we want a culture of caring, but we don't. We? Having the ownership rest at the right place and the agency rest at the right place is vital for this to work.

02;10;28;26 - 02;10;51;25
Mindy Caliguire
And it is not, you know, we should be very clear. It is not incumbent on the board to be the sole care provider or a leader. Care providers for their senior leader. It is incumbent on them to ensure that that leader is doing well, but without becoming the care provider themselves.

02;10;51;28 - 02;11;16;29
Michael Martin
Yeah, with the kind of resources that they need. I think that's exactly right. One other thought that came to mind too, just in terms of creating that kind of environment or that safety or that level of trust, is I think we have seen in some of the organizations that are what are called pioneering in this space or kind of shining examples of the vision for what this standard could be.

02;11;16;29 - 02;11;51;04
Michael Martin
There already are organizations out there that are doing a lot of this that in the environments where it seems to be really thriving and doing well, a lot of times what I'll hear, Mindy, is leaders who will say, when the conversation comes forward and the leaders having discussions with the board around this topic, one of the things that the board would do is I think this comes back to a posture of even humility, and the right kind of support is actually going back to the leader and empowering them to say, not only how are you doing?

02;11;51;04 - 02;12;13;09
Michael Martin
And all of those kinds of things, but also, hey, leader, you tell us, like, what do you think would be helpful for you in this season? Like, are there things that readily come to mind? And I think even just as boards serve their leaders in that way, as opposed to a, hey, we're going to tell you what to do.

02;12;13;11 - 02;12;14;11
Michael Martin
Yeah. But right now.

02;12;14;16 - 02;12;19;22
Mindy Caliguire
Any leader would rightly reject that. Like, right. Like you don't want to be.

02;12;19;26 - 02;12;48;18
Mindy Caliguire
Told, we think you need marriage counseling. Like, that's awkward. That's not helpful. But opening space for a safe conversation where a leader could have the the freedom to say and the support of the board to say we would support the funding of these external resources for you. We would support your time, a way to get time, whether it's for sabbatical or just an extended retreat or whatever is needed there.

02;12;48;18 - 02;13;11;01
Mindy Caliguire
There's. There's ways the board can support without overreach that are actually vital a leader, a leader. They need to do the thinking of what would be helpful to them. It wouldn't even be right for them to abdicate. What? You just tell me what to do. Like that's. That's right. Either. Right? Yeah.

02;13;11;04 - 02;13;33;04
Michael Martin
Yeah, I think that's key to creating that right kind of environment. Well, I know we're coming to the end of our time, and I want to give you the opportunity just for any closing words, encouragements, thoughts that you might leave with us, especially. Yeah, for pastors, leaders, board members, those who would be listening, any final encouragement you would offer.

02;13;33;06 - 02;14;10;16
Mindy Caliguire
Or guys, if it's not part of your practice already, take Michael's example of some very simple prayers that are wonderful when you wake up stressed out in the middle of the night or you're walking into a meeting, you don't know how it's going to go and to just you probably already have a committed memory. But to go through the Lord's Prayer, praying that but into your circumstances or the 23rd Psalm and the the phrase from the 23rd Psalm that was coming to mind, as you were saying, that Michael is I mean, there's so many things, you know, that I lack nothing that he leaves me behind, you know, all these places, even surrounded by

02;14;10;16 - 02;14;30;17
Mindy Caliguire
enemies. He's with me. All these things. But one of my favorite parts of it, when you think about what we're called to as leaders, is I think it's verse four. It says, he leads me on bright paths for his name's sake. And, you know, most of the time we're like, I hope I'm on the right path. I think I'm on the right path.

02;14;30;17 - 02;14;59;00
Mindy Caliguire
This better be the right path. The prayer for me and for those who are listening, God, that you would lead every single person on paths of righteousness. Right? Paths. There's different ways that that gives translated for each of these organizations, for these leaders and God, for your name's sake, that you would lead them on right paths for their for your name's sake.

02;14;59;03 - 02;15;38;25
Mindy Caliguire
Yeah. And even if they walk through the darkest valley, that they would fear no evil. For you are with them. God, we love that. We live in a world where you are that active, that involved, that loving, that good and that kind. So we pray over every leader who's listening and and just ask that they would breathe deeply of your very real and near presence, and that they would increasingly be marked by those symptoms of soul health, the fruit of the spirit, the gifts of the spirit, the ways that you're at work.

02;15;38;28 - 02;15;53;04
Mindy Caliguire
And we do look to you got to do this good work that for is putting their hand to that. We are putting our hand to over the next few years, would you receive the honor and glory God. Amen.

02;15;53;07 - 02;16;04;18
Michael Martin
Amen. Mindy, thanks for ending on that note in in that prayer. I know on behalf of everyone listening, I'll say we receive it and thank you.

02;16;04;20 - 02;16;06;20
Mindy Caliguire
You're welcome.

02;16;06;22 - 02;16;16;01
Ryan Gordon
Thanks for joining us for the Behind the Seal podcast. If today's episode challenged you, share it with someone and start a conversation. We'll see you next time.