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In Ecclesiastes 3:11, we read that God makes everything beautiful in its time. It is comforting to know that nothing is wasted in God's economy, but all of it will be used for our good and His glory. You're invited to join us for poignant conversations and compelling interviews centered on believing for His beauty in every season.
Everything Made Beautiful (00:31)
Well, hey there, Ro, thank you so much for being on the Everything Made Beautiful podcast.
Ro (00:39)
Thank you for having me. It's always an honor to be here.
Everything Made Beautiful (00:42)
⁓ And this is actually our second podcast recording that we have done together. And I haven't aired the first one yet because in that one we talked all about your coaching business and the things you're up to now. But when I heard your story, I immediately said to you, uh-oh, I think we need to record that first because you have said...
that your story really encapsulates the theme of everything made beautiful. So why do you say that? Why does that resonate with you so deeply?
Ro (01:14)
Well, I do think it's partly the gift of age that you get further down the road and you can look back. Because I think in the moment when it is stormy and dark and there's loss all around you in pain, it really is hard to believe in hope, in beauty for ashes, in redemption. And about 10 years ago, in my mind's eye, I saw this picture and if I could be an artist, I'd paint it.
Everything Made Beautiful (01:19)
Yeah.
Ro (01:41)
But in the picture, I'm standing on a street and I am downcast. My shoulders are slumped. I'm looking down. I mean, you can just see pain. And all around me on the ground is shards of glass and trash and brokenness. And I'm just looking down. And then the next picture is I'm further down the road on the pavement and I'm standing tall and I'm looking up and I'm looking back over my shoulder.
in the pavement are these huge beautiful gems all different colors in embedded into the pavement and from those gems are lights brilliant lights shooting up into the sky and when i saw that i that's my everything made beautiful
Everything Made Beautiful (02:34)
Yeah from the shards from the things that seem broken. Yeah that's so good and isn't isn't that what we're hoping for? We're believing the promise that God is bringing redemption and restoration. So tell me about growing up a little bit because you grew up in an Italian Catholic family which you may have to describe that for people. You've said your your uncle was a priest
Ro (02:44)
Yes.
Yeah.
Everything Made Beautiful (03:01)
And then coming into a personal relationship with Jesus was a huge turning point for you. So just talk a little bit about that.
Ro (03:09)
Yes. So my young years, I grew up about 40 minutes outside New York City in a very Italian Catholic family. And my counselor one time, she's from the Northeast, she goes, you don't separate those two things. They don't get separated. It's very cultural. My mom was the youngest of 10 and they were immigrant family. So my worldview was very small. was, everybody was either Italian,
Everything Made Beautiful (03:23)
Mm.
Ro (03:39)
some Polish, know, very ethnic groups of people, Catholic or Jewish. That was it. That was my whole worldview. And so we lived in a very insular world, very fun. So kind of think my big fat Greek wedding, just put my big fat Greek, I mean, Italian family. That was my family. It was, it was, it was very fun and very loud and ⁓ very different.
Everything Made Beautiful (03:48)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Yeah.
I was going to ask if it
was loud because that's what we hear a lot of times about big Italian families is there's there's a lot of volume.
Ro (04:15)
lots of volume. And for some reason, everybody thinks they should talk at the same time. I don't know why, but they think they should talk at the same time. So we live in that world. And my father gets transferred when I'm in junior high middle school to a small town in Upper East Tennessee. And it was literally like landing on a foreign land. Because especially back then, where you lived was the world you knew. We didn't know.
Everything Made Beautiful (04:42)
Mm.
Ro (04:43)
There's no internet. We didn't travel past Philadelphia. I didn't know anything about the South. So it was like landing in a foreign land. And one of the ways it was very foreign, I didn't know what a Protestant was. Never heard of it, had no idea. And there was one little bitty Catholic church and then maybe a thousand Baptist churches. There were so many Baptist churches. ⁓
Everything Made Beautiful (04:59)
Mm.
That seems right, yes.
Ro (05:14)
So it really, I just started observing and watching and paying attention and listening. And they were using language I did not know. And I do want to say a sidebar. This is not anti-Catholic. I grew up at a very different time in the Catholic Church. Back in the 60s, 50s, 60s, we were pre-Battican too for a while. The priest back was us and he spoke the Mass in Latin when I was young.
Everything Made Beautiful (05:31)
Mm-hmm.
Ro (05:44)
And then Vatican II flipped him around and he spoke in English, which was good. So the Catholic Church was going through a huge transition. I have so many wonderful friends who express their beautiful face within the Catholic Church. So what I am sharing is my experience. It is not anybody else's. So I don't know language. I don't know this language of which they are talking.
Everything Made Beautiful (05:44)
Okay.
Ro (06:10)
did meet my husband about that time and he really made me tilt my head a lot going, are you real? ⁓ Who treats people this way? So all this is kind of churning in me, but I can honestly say I don't remember praying a prayer. I don't remember going, God, where are you? None of that. But one, my junior year, a guy named Nikki Cruz, who was
part of Teen Challenge, so this may be really so old, you have to Google him. He wrote a book called The Cross and Switchblade, and he was taken out of the gangs of New York City. Well, he came to speak to our school, public school, so you have that. And, you know, I'm like listening to people and I'm comparing my behavior to their behavior. And I'm going, I can't do that. Like the toothpaste is already out of the tube. You know, I can't.
Everything Made Beautiful (06:42)
Yes.
Ro (07:05)
be him and I can't be her, but I'd listened to Nikki Cruz who he didn't kill anybody but came close. And all's I know is like something cracked open in my chest. And at that point I was pretty shut down emotionally. I didn't cry, didn't do, had really very little emotion except laughter. And he gave what I now understand as an altar call. Had no idea what that was.
But he gave an invitation and it was like I was propelled. I did not look to my friends. didn't look to let, I mean, I was down. I was sobbing. And all I know is Jesus met me. I had no idea what I did. I'm honest. I had no idea. I had no language for it. But he met me. And it's like he put his hand over that seed and said, this has to be a long, slow journey. Because he knew.
Everything Made Beautiful (07:54)
Yeah.
Ro (08:04)
what was going to be down the road for me.
Everything Made Beautiful (08:08)
Wow, that's so good. I think that is probably very encouraging to people who don't remember exactly their, you know, conversion or salvation story. And so they hear these prolific stories of this is where I was, or I was seven years old, and this is what happened, and this is what I said, and this is what I felt. And sometimes I think, though those stories are beautiful,
Ro (08:19)
Yes.
you
Everything Made Beautiful (08:37)
It can feel really inaccessible for people who their story is just, one day I met Jesus and I was never the same. I can't tell you all the details. I may not be able to write it in a book, but I can tell you that it happened because I'm a different person now. So I'm grateful that you shared that because I think it's accessible for people. ⁓ What was the reaction of your family when you met Jesus?
Ro (09:02)
Well, like that, it was, I got up, never talked about it. Didn't talk to my friends, didn't talk. I didn't know what happened. And so this was a very slow process of me going to college. My now husband taking a book from the church library, stealing it and giving me a Bible and me reading it for the first time. I'm 19, trying to read the Bible. was very confusing to me.
Everything Made Beautiful (09:07)
Mm.
Mm-hmm
Mm-hmm.
Ro (09:32)
And
then the Lord brings two roommates that happen to be Christians invited me to Bible study. And another girl who had a very similar past to me was living, because my outward behaviors weren't changing that much. There was just this thing going very quietly inside. But I think the Lord was very protective because I think he knew it had to be me and him. Me and him.
because of what I was going to have to do. And so listening to her, it was almost like it ticked me over to a place of like, like I said, yes, that was an encounter, but it was all these small little things along the way. Fast forward, go home. I want to still go to the Catholic church, but I want to go to church where Mark goes to church. Well, I, up, I wasn't allowed in Protestant church. So.
Everything Made Beautiful (10:17)
Yeah.
Ro (10:29)
That was a big thing for me to do because I didn't defy my dad ever, ever, And as the summer went on, again, I wanted to be baptized. Mark did not tell me to be baptized. I have no memory of anybody telling me this thing. I wanted to be baptized. And when I told my father that, was probably the thing that kind of started the downward cycle.
Everything Made Beautiful (10:57)
Hmm.
Ro (10:57)
And I have to tell this one precious story because this is how naive I was. So I'm like thinking I cannot kill my father. I mean his blood pressure, his face was red. He was, I mean, not doing well.
Everything Made Beautiful (11:10)
Because
this was, so was this just kind of the worst possible scenario he could imagine for his daughter?
Ro (11:17)
Yes, there's no context. Like when I, when I talked to my cousins years later, they weren't allowed after this, they weren't allowed to talk to us. I mean, it was a big deal. My parents grew up in the Northeast. My parents grew up in this. This, the closest thing I think Protestants can understand why it was like this for me. It's almost like a Jewish person coming to faith, pretty close.
from that kind of cultural, and it's his brother that's the priest. So honestly, I mean, his pride was all wrapped up into this. I mean, you know, when our kids do something different and then we take it personally, what did I do wrong? I'm a failure. So all that was mixed in to his reaction. And so I got up one morning and looked up in the concordance.
Everything Made Beautiful (12:01)
Yeah, yeah.
Ro (12:13)
What do you say about parents? I don't know. I'm sure I maybe knew the 10 commandments. I don't know. Nope, even know if I knew that. And that's not what God gave me. Cause I did honor my parents. always had a fear, some of it. I don't know if that's honor, but the Matthew passage that says, whoever shall love mother and father, brother or sister more than me, come, follow me, pick up your cross. And there was a piece that just
Everything Made Beautiful (12:29)
Mm-hmm.
Ro (12:43)
came. And the next Saturday night, we'd go Saturday night, my parents played golf and I went to church with Mark. The priest read that passage, read Romans six, when you think about baptism and a King's passage I can't remember. And he talks about division in the family. He talks about there's some people here who
maybe left the protestant faith and your parents don't understand or there could actually be parents here who's, I mean it was like my eyeballs were this big. So naively I'm Lord, thank you, this is gonna be great, my dad's gonna understand, everything's gonna be okay. And when he got back from playing golf, I sat down and all my enthusiasm and he was like, he was, and I just felt the Lord whispered, this was for you all.
you receive it. And it was probably later that week where he very angrily kicked me out of the house, cut me off. ⁓ I was a rising senior in college. back in the day, I mean, they paid for my school. They gave me some spending money. So back in that day, one like you get online, go, let's get some financial aid. It was over.
Everything Made Beautiful (13:46)
Mmm.
No. Yeah.
Ro (14:05)
And so I packed up my room and moved to Knoxville and started looking for a job. God's provision was I was living off campus, so my apartment started earlier than the school started. So I had a place to move. But then my mom did call about, I don't know, how many weeks, right before school started and said, she whispered, there's money in the bank.
you go register for your classes. And my mom did not have a voice in the family. She didn't say much. But I think for these moments, she saved it. And I know she's the reason I got to finish my education.
Everything Made Beautiful (14:40)
Mm.
Wow. What was your relationship like with your parents in later years?
Ro (14:58)
It is an amazing story. So if my dad's kicking me out of the house, I mean, it was not the angelic childhood either. So there were issues in my heart well before he kicked me out. And I had to go on my own journey. But my dad actually had a very passionate place for the Lord. He just was bound by success in alcohol.
Everything Made Beautiful (15:07)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Ro (15:28)
All the things. Fast forward through years of me working through my heart, my forgiveness. They moved here when they were 80. And the last 10 years of my life with them, God restored so much. My vision for that was, okay, if we can just all be, because I hadn't lived around him since I was 18. And now they're moving here.
Everything Made Beautiful (15:29)
Mm.
Ro (15:59)
And I thought, okay, if we just all be around each other and there not be a lot of yelling, if we can be all around each other. And at the end of my dad's life, we went to lunch every week. There was one time he looked me in the eyes and he told me something very personal. And he said, I only tell my friends this. God brought, like I was willing to settle for this.
Everything Made Beautiful (16:04)
Yeah.
Ro (16:26)
that scripture verse that he's able to do more than I could ever imagine. I mean, when I was by my mom's side and my dad's side, I wept, I was sad. They lived a long, life. I actually, they were tears of Thanksgiving and joy because I couldn't have imagined us finishing like we finished. And part of that is my dad went on his own journey.
Everything Made Beautiful (16:39)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Ro (16:53)
He took classes from the sisters at Aquinas. They really helped change his life. The priest down at St. Phillips became his spiritual director. He went on a spiritual journey too. Because it takes two people to unite it like we were. So that's what I encourage people. If somebody would tell me my 30s, my 40s, my 50s, that this is how I would have ended with my dad,
Everything Made Beautiful (17:07)
Wow.
Yeah.
Ro (17:23)
I don't know if I could have believed them, but that's why I say, again, this is one line on one paragraph on one page in one chapter of a very long story that's being written. It's not done. So it.
Everything Made Beautiful (17:35)
Yeah. Yeah, that's so
good and so encouraging. And I know so many people have hurt or betrayal or just dysfunction in their family of origin that often we think as adults, well, that there's just no way for that to ever get resolved. And I'm grateful for your encouragement that God can do anything. He is a restorer.
It's what he does. ⁓ So to go back a little bit, because you really vulnerably shared with me that in college, so you not only met Jesus, you know, for people who think, so she met Jesus and then all was well in her life, except this one thing with her dad, that that that is not the case with your story. And you mentioned battling both self hatred, but also anorexia and just a season of
darkness during college. I would imagine that at that time there was not support, necessary support, certainly any mental health challenges, but certainly no eating disorder challenges were being talked about as publicly with as many helpful resources as exist now. So what did that struggle look like for you? How were you able to name that? And how were you able to find freedom in that? Because I would imagine
either people listening or people listening who have daughters have encountered the same thing.
Ro (19:12)
Yeah, so I used to say, ⁓ my parents were always on diets, my mom and dad and my sister. And honestly, I've, by God's grace, I have a good metabolism. I was not overweight. This was not about weight. was sophomore year, everybody's drinking tab and doing the diet thing and starting to exercise. And I was like, all right. I mean, I just kind of did it because everybody else was doing it. But I went.
Everything Made Beautiful (19:31)
Yeah
Ro (19:42)
very fast down a rabbit hole. And so when people think anorexia is about weight, it's not. It's about pain. It's really about pain. And what even did I think the most harm in my life was the over the exercising. We have a lot of addiction in our family. My drug of choice was exercise. And
I would be like a caged animal if I didn't get my six miles in, my mile of swimming. I mean, my daily regiment was ridiculous. Plus, I'm starving myself.
Everything Made Beautiful (20:15)
Mm.
Yeah.
Ro (20:25)
And so, you know, what was confusing for us, I was so skinny growing up that I tried to gain weight. then so for a while, it didn't look odd to me until I really tipped over to very, very low weight. And so, but we didn't know what that was. mean, there was no name for it. I'm sure it, anorexia was out there, but you didn't hear about it. We didn't know what that was.
Everything Made Beautiful (20:54)
Mm.
Ro (20:55)
So ⁓ my wake-up call was I completely quit having periods. So I went to the doctor and he said, well, you need more body fat and then you have three or four periods a year. And I was like, well, you you're young and you go, whoo-hoo, you know, who wants a period every month? But I didn't, yeah, I didn't realize three or four could be in the normal range. None, zero is not.
Everything Made Beautiful (21:13)
Yeah, exactly.
Ro (21:25)
So eventually I was not feeling right and I thought, you know, I probably am gonna need that period back one day. I'll just go to the doctor and they'll get me started. And that did not work. And the odd thing was I had gained about 40 pounds in about three months span, but I looked healthy. See, I was up to normal weight.
Everything Made Beautiful (21:51)
Yeah.
Ro (21:54)
And so I'm sitting in this conference room with the intracranologist, with the fertility specialist, with this other guy, and they're talking about me. I'm 21, at the end of the table, like I'm not there. And they're saying, we think this is it, but we're not sure. And it's the weight, it's this. And I remember just thinking, do I tell them? Do I tell them? Do I tell them? And it was like, well, three months ago, I weighed 40 pounds left. And they were like, there it is.
So long story, they put me in the hospital, put me in the hospital to run all these tests. And when I was in the hospital, I heard the whisper of God. But because of my theology of God, I don't think I heard it in the kindness of which he meant it. It reminds me of the Garden of Eden. You know, I used to think it was the ticked off God, where are you and why are you hiding?
Everything Made Beautiful (22:42)
Mm.
Ro (22:50)
instead of being the invitational God going, where are you and why are you hiding? So basically I heard the whisper of God saying that I was killing myself. Never saw it that way. That it was slow suicide. And that I hated myself and I hated who he made me to be. And it was like spitting, saying I hate you. And I remember crying out going, I do, I do, why?
Everything Made Beautiful (22:50)
Right.
Ro (23:19)
Why am I this way? But because I had a twisty view of God, thought, I can't get God mad at me. I thought he was mad at me. But it really woke, God uses everything. He meets us where we are. We so misinterpret his love all the time. And even though I totally misinterpret his love, he was like, it's okay, keep coming. You'll get it one day. And it was a long time. But that was...
Everything Made Beautiful (23:29)
Yeah.
Ro (23:48)
Part of the beginning of helping me with the eating side of it, but it was a long journey to the exercise. And the only way that stopped is there's a book called The Body Keeps the Score, and my body kept the score and it said game over. And that's when my health bottomed out after the birth of my third child.
Everything Made Beautiful (24:08)
Yeah.
And you have said with your third child that you were then you were diagnosed with lupus after that point and you just hit the wall. So I mean, that's a health crisis for sure. And now and now you have three children. And so how was that a turning point for you? Because at this point, there have been many years of your life where you have been trying to get healthy physically.
Ro (24:26)
Yes.
Everything Made Beautiful (24:41)
And there's no such thing as only getting healthy physically. Everything is connected to everything. So how did that crisis become a turning point for you?
Ro (24:45)
Yes!
I think it's that crisis of faith and I still was just new in the Lord. I didn't have a lot of biblical knowledge. I had a lot of experiential knowledge with him. He was very, very real to me. So when people would come to me and say, you have hidden sin, you have demons, you're being punished, all those really uplifting kind of things.
Everything Made Beautiful (25:21)
Yeah,
so helpful. Yes.
Ro (25:23)
so
helpful, but it made me wrestle with him in those things. But I really saw a bit as a punishment and then I didn't know I'm an Enneagram Two and Enneagram Two's work hard to be loved. We don't know how just to receive and receive love and it restrained me because there wasn't anything I could do to earn the love. I was
Everything Made Beautiful (25:39)
Yeah.
Ro (25:53)
barely making it through the day. I felt like a horrible mother. I felt like a horrible wife. I felt horrible physically. I couldn't serve at church. I couldn't do anything except really survive each day. And all of a sudden, how do you love me if I'm not earning it?
Everything Made Beautiful (26:14)
Yeah, you said, it's hard to earn love when you can do nothing to earn it.
Ro (26:21)
And it is in but that was part of I love the upside down kingdom. The upside down kingdom is he was teaching me about his love. Why I was in the deepest darkest one of the deepest darkest holes in my
It doesn't make sense. Who learns that God loves you when your world and your circumstances seem to be telling you otherwise? But that really did start a journey. again, you're saying no counseling. Counseling wasn't a thing back then. It wasn't a thing much anyway, but then you put it in the evangelical charismatic culture. You just needed more prayer. You need more deliverance.
Everything Made Beautiful (27:06)
Mm-hmm.
Ro (27:09)
So counseling wasn't a thing. I look back and knowing what I know now, I really should have been in at least a 30 day treatment program for sure. And I needed a lot of trauma counseling because of things we haven't talked about, and a lot of that stuff before the stories you heard. this is where I just want to encourage people, God meets us where we are. He didn't go, well, you're not gonna do the right thing. I'm not gonna meet you. I would feel him.
The spirit wooed me to get up in the middle of the night. And I would fight this going, God, do you not know that I'm sick and that I need a lot of sleep? I cannot get up. But I would get up and I would sit on the floor in the dead and I would just sob. I would sob and sob and sob, having no thought of why these tears. Now I can look back and understand I was releasing a lot.
of the things my body had stored that I didn't know how to get rid of. And it just was tears in the night on multiple occasions that I think was part of the restoring process too.
Everything Made Beautiful (28:17)
Well, and it's so true that I think sometimes we think we can't heal if we don't have trauma counseling and therapy regularly. And the fact of the matter with some of those things is that people just are not in a season where they can afford to do that. But how comforting to know that God meets us where we are.
He does not hold over us our ability to go to therapy and whether or not he will dispense healing. And so the profound thing you said about learning the love of God in your darkest season versus learning the love of God after you went to counseling and someone explained it to you in great words. He does meet us where we are. And you know, it's interesting.
Ro (28:48)
Yes.
Everything Made Beautiful (29:15)
Sometimes it can feel like in stories like yours, it can be like, okay, that was a lot. And you have one of those stories that the hits keep on coming. You know what I'm saying? Because we talked about you being diagnosed with lupus after the birth of your third child, but you also had four miscarriages along the way. And I know I have worked with women so long. And I would say that
Ro (29:23)
you
Yes.
Everything Made Beautiful (29:44)
Infertility and miscarriages are by and large the predominant ⁓ painful experience that I talk to women about. ⁓ One of those miscarriages nearly cost you your life ⁓ as though other things weren't already almost costing you your life. ⁓ If you're willing, would you just share how God
met you in the depth of that grief because I know so many have experienced it and it's it's such a silent and isolating kind of grief.
Ro (30:21)
Yes it is. And I saw that question and I thought, honestly, I wanted to say something profound. But really, all those years ago, I was supposed to be able to have children. Amy was a miracle. Then two miscarriages. And back in the day, it wasn't acknowledged. And my generation,
was raised by what is considered the greatest generation ever. And they were, they'd accomplished a lot of great things, but parenting and emotions were not one of them. And so we were raised, bucket up, buttercup, keep moving. I mean, you spent my home, I mean, there was zero expression. I didn't know how to express emotion. And honestly, I didn't, I was sad, but I did not.
Everything Made Beautiful (30:57)
Hahaha.
Ro (31:16)
grief because you just thought people, well, gave you things like, well, good thing you weren't in your second trimester or things like that. There wasn't ⁓
Everything Made Beautiful (31:28)
all the terribly unhelpful
things people say.
Ro (31:33)
And then you feel guilty, it's like, well, I've had one baby. And really the panic for me was, oh God, please, please, please. I'm still in that, let's make a deal. If I promise never to do this again, can you get me pregnant? That, I didn't go where I needed to go in the grief. And I am sure that was part of what I was holding in my body. And then the last two, especially the last one, I almost died.
And so you're not concentrating on, lost a baby. It's like, my gosh, I almost died. I mean, I was five minutes away from not raising my kids. so that needed a lot of tending to that didn't get tended to. it honestly wasn't, I love now because at church and in places it's infant celebrations. They have a name for it. don't even, but it's.
Everything Made Beautiful (32:30)
Yeah, it's infant loss, infant loss, remembrance day. Pregnancy, pregnancy and infant loss. Yeah.
Ro (32:30)
All infants.
Yes. Let's see.
Yes. And it's all of it. And honestly, until my daughter had a miscarriage herself, and she's a very gifted writer, and it was she had a picture of candles and she wrote this beautiful post. And she talked about her siblings. And it hit me in a way, both my husband and I in a way saying,
We never grieve.
We just kind of kept going. And it wasn't until she had her miscarriage that it really did something deep, deep into my soul of feeling more the loss of those babies. I love what is out there now. And I love that no matter if you know you are pregnant for a day or months or on the other side.
It is a deep, deep loss. And I encourage women, find the support, find the people around you who can sit with you in that sadness and let you move through.
Everything Made Beautiful (33:48)
Yeah, that's so good. I would say the same thing. I think you're right. think we put ⁓ percentages on how much we're allowed to grieve based on how long we knew or if everybody else knew or how many trimester, you know, and it's just that it's it's still life. We believe God has knitted together life and that he gives and he takes away. And when that life is no longer there, there's grief.
Ro (34:09)
Yes.
Everything Made Beautiful (34:16)
as with any life. So yes, I agree with that. Get support that you need. If you've experienced a miscarriage, you talk about a season in your life, and I think you were pregnant with your fourth child at this point where there was just some, an incredible amount of instability ⁓ in your home. know, Mark was unemployed. You've even said there was spiritual abuse in the community. What
What sustains a young family when everything is unstable like that?
Ro (34:52)
Yes, so we thought we were done having babies because it had been seven years and my body was pretty janky. so we finally just said, okay, Lord, I always wanted a big family. I wanted six kids. didn't want a trailer. I said, I don't want a trailer. And so we had given away, we gave away all the baby stuff. It was like a way of like, okay, Lord.
I accept, thankful for the three children. Shouldn't even have had those. So thank you, thank you. Gave everything away. And probably about two weeks after that, all of a sudden I started not feeling very good at all. And for all my pregnancies that I carried, I get really sick. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. And then about that time, my husband walked away slash got fired, however.
depends on you're talking to, his job. And we were part of a very unhealthy spiritual community that blew up. even I could say what they said and probably would be helpful, but it was very almost, almost if you could curse a pregnancy, they did mine. And so it was a lot.
Everything Made Beautiful (36:15)
Mmm.
Ro (36:19)
And as you can tell, I have lots of words. My husband's a man of very few words. And what he says carries a lot of weight. And so one day he was ⁓ having his quiet time, just Lord, what did we do? What did we do? I mean, nobody was happy with us. The doctors weren't happy, our parents weren't happy, he's unemployed, the people we used to fellowship with were saying all kinds of things.
bad. And he was like, what do we do? And literally the Lord led him to the story of Abraham and Isaac. And just that phrase, the Lord will provide. And he came out and said, Ro, I promise, I mean, God made this clear, we're going to be okay. The Lord is going to provide. And because of the way he carries himself spiritually and the way he uses words,
infrequently. It was like a bomb to me. And it was just like, okay, okay. So two days later, people who I don't think really knew who we were, they wouldn't know our story, send us a very generous gift. The Lord just put y'all on our heart. I mean, right after we thought, ⁓ wow. So it was a very, we were very isolated.
It was really hard, but we, by God's grace, it didn't tear us apart. It forged us together. And the birth of Christopher was the bright side in the whole thing. I'll tell you a very funny story. So part of the story is we didn't go to the doctor till like right before I delivered. So we just kept thinking names, names. We...
Everything Made Beautiful (37:54)
Yeah.
Ro (38:14)
were assured we figured she's a girl and her name would be Mariah because the Lord's gonna provide. We're gonna do Mount Mariah. Yes, yes. So we give birth to him. He is an eight and a half pound bouncing baby boy and we go.
Everything Made Beautiful (38:20)
Mount Moriah, yes.
Ro (38:31)
⁓ And so we thought, well, we want another one. Maybe it's going to be a girl. We'll name her Mariah. But we couldn't let go of it. So we named him Christopher Moriah. M-O-R-I-H. And my dad's response was like, you better get that boy boxing gloves if that's going to be his middle name. And without going into the detail that the Lord will provide became later in his life, his
own anchor where God showed up in his life in a very, very specific way for that the Lord will provide that so much that it's a tattoo on his arm. So it's just that sweet thread all the way through that he we carried him in that and then it carried him. Only God.
Everything Made Beautiful (39:06)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yes. ⁓
Yeah, it's so good.
that is such a important principle for us as parents that when we're walking through hardship, when we're navigating things, our kids are watching it and we have the opportunity to speak blessing and the faithfulness of God over them in a way that will revisit them later when they're going through their own hurts and their own issues. And you know,
you mentioned that faith community not being helpful in that season, in fact, being harmful in that season. And there is a lot of conversation around church hurt today. Like that is a very ⁓ common thing to be hearing about. I have lots of feelings about that conversation and how it should happen and how it shouldn't happen and the appropriate way to have a conversation about it. But it's no less real.
that people do experience church hurt and you have gone through several seasons of spiritual blow ups. You've had one involving family. ⁓ What would you say about faith and leadership and just navigating spiritual pain in those moments? Because I mean, you and I met in our church, so I know that you have not abandoned church, but I do know that you lived outside of organized.
Ro (40:38)
Hahaha
Everything Made Beautiful (40:44)
church setting for over 30 years. So just talk a little bit about that season specifically for people who've experienced you know church hurt which I don't even love those words anymore but when people who've experienced hurt or harm in what should be the safest community that they're part of.
Ro (41:05)
Yes, and my husband, it's not a joke, but we kind of joke, but I think you have to look at, we were the common denominator. Nobody forced us into two unhealthy church settings. So we had to do work about that. And I think that's important that not everybody's drawn into unhealthy church environments. So what was it about me, especially me, and what was about my husband that
had a hook to kind of allow us to be in those situations. That is very, important. But yes. But secondly,
Everything Made Beautiful (41:43)
It is.
Ro (41:49)
After the second big blow up in that involving family, how I describe it is like a tornado came through and it ripped the roof and the walls and the windows and the doors, but there was some scaffolding left. And I'm going to use a word that gets really dinged. I deconstructed my faith.
But deconstruction isn't all bad. Maybe we need to come up with a better term. But I, by God's grace, I did not attach what people did and said to that being God and that being, and maybe because at that point I was outside the organized church, I didn't ding it on the church, didn't, but I didn't ding it on God and Jesus. By God's, maybe because he had proven himself so much.
Everything Made Beautiful (42:37)
Yeah.
Ro (42:43)
It didn't rattle who I believed in, but I questioned everything except the essentials. Everything was up for grabs. And I really realized I had some bad theology about God. And if we have bad theology about God, we have bad theology about ourselves, and we have bad theology about ourselves, we have bad theology about this has to be made right, so this could be made right.
so this could be right. And it was scary. I felt like I was free falling. I mean, it was, I was 50 something by this point and it was like, my gosh. I mean, I don't know what I even hardly think anymore.
I asked him lots of questions. What is it that I don't understand about you? What is it that I don't understand about your love? And what I told him, I am gonna quit layering my circumstances over you and letting that define who you are. I want you to give me a vision to layer your love over my circumstances.
and let that tell me who you are and who I am.
So I think it is a hard, hard wrestle, but I would encourage people don't attach what people do to it being Big C Church, God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit. Because one of those aspects of the Trinity is usually misused in church trauma. So that's what I...
Everything Made Beautiful (44:28)
Yes, yes.
Ro (44:34)
separate that out, invite him in, ask him a thousand questions, he will answer.
Everything Made Beautiful (44:41)
Yeah, I have said so often Jesus is so other than the misbehavior of his followers. Like we misbehave all the time, we mistreat one another all the time. We are all likely complicit in some level of church hurt. However, it is not a baby out with the bathwater situation.
Ro (44:51)
Yes.
Yes.
Everything Made Beautiful (45:07)
So you went from basically a home church to a mega church. I mean, that is quite a leap. ⁓ And we met at that mega church, at Church of the City. So tell me about that. What made you go, okay, we're gonna go back into the church setting. And was there anything that surprised you about that transition back into not just church, but something so large and so different from what you'd been doing?
Ro (45:38)
So this came about the time when I was going through my own identity crisis, empty nester, understanding I'm an Enneagram too and thinking, I need another place to live out besides my family. And we had friends, but I looked at my husband's like, we don't have community. We have friends, we have lots of friends, but I wouldn't say community. And one day I came to him and I said,
I'm gonna go, I'm just gonna go sit in the back of church. I just think I need to go. You don't have to come with me. We've been married long enough. I have to go. I just need to see if I can sit in it. And it was the worship after the 21 day fast on a Sunday night. And I just went and sat in the back in the song, goodness of God. And I just saw, and I just saw.
So then I said, I'm going on Sunday, you don't have to come. And he was not really thinking he was going to come Sunday morning. He okay, I'll go. And here was the amazing thing, God knows what we need.
before we even realize what we need. Because all sizes churches can meet different people and there's not a one way to do it. But for us coming out of cult-like-ishness, the first Sunday we're there, Darren gets up and says, we're going to start a new ⁓ series. And the first person who's going to lead this off is my favorite, K-MAC. Katie, Chrissy McClellan comes up and Mark and I kind of look at each other and, hmm, okay.
The next Sunday, was three Sundays before we realized Darren was the lead pastor. And all of a sudden we went, we needed plurality of leadership.
Everything Made Beautiful (47:31)
Right.
And that's good. Yeah, there was something safe about that for you.
Ro (47:42)
because our past was power, one person rising up to kind of take control. And so it was like, ⁓ my goodness, we needed that. The second big step was, second time we there, we ran into a couple that we knew from our early church days, did a lot of life together, but life, wasn't bad. Life just took us in different directions and they invited us to their community.
And here's what I can say with great confidence. We get wounded in community and we need community to heal. And it was very difficult. I wasn't as scared to sit in a church service. I was a bit petrified to sit in a living room.
Everything Made Beautiful (48:26)
Absolutely.
Ro (48:28)
and this group is a very safe group. Some of them have had their own past church things, which helps, but just last Sunday I shared, they asked me to do the devotional thing, and I shared and they just said, you're not even close to the same person who started coming to our group. You and I said,
You all have given me a place to heal. And I kind of want to go, well, how bad was I? mean, what was I? Because they keep saying to me a bunch like, you are so different. But it gave me a space to heal.
Everything Made Beautiful (48:58)
Hahaha!
Yes. And there's a, I think, I think for people, you know, this is also part of the kindness of God, I think, but I have said really often, listen, when you spend as long on a church staff as I have across several different churches, you've seen it all. But one of the things I have seen almost play out to the letter is for every, ⁓
Ro (49:09)
And so it's been a blessing.
Everything Made Beautiful (49:36)
church hurt, sometimes traumatic story that I have heard. There is someone on the other end with an equally healing and victorious and God met me in a way I've never experienced through this church. Same church. This story's trauma. This story is radical healing and feeling seen by God.
Ro (49:53)
Yes.
Everything Made Beautiful (49:59)
And so I say a lot of times when I'm talking to people about this, because I do not want to downplay church hurt or reduce it. That is, I am not speaking about the specific experiences of people when I say I'm not sure we're doing a great job talking about it. ⁓ I more mean people who are making a platform out of church hurt stories, that's more what I'm talking about. The hurt is real for people, but
churches that hurt people also help heal people and churches that heal people also have hurt people and so it's God who's doing the healing and it's often the people who are doing the hurting and no two stories are the same and so vilifying God's design for the community of the Big C church is not the answer.
you know refusing to ever go again not the answer staying far far away because you're afraid not the answer but what you did was you just you waited in slowly and you did it incrementally and you were in safe spaces and so talk about god making everything beautiful you had every reason to go forget
this. I can lead my kids, my you know, we can do home church or now in this day and age, we can watch online, we don't have to be part of it. But we're heard in community and we're healed and community is just so profound. ⁓ So I know we need to wrap up though I could talk to you all day as which is how I've always felt about you. But
Ro (51:38)
you
Everything Made Beautiful (51:42)
What would you say to the woman or the man who's listening and they are right in the middle of their mess? You've been able to kind of tell the story of your life and tell the ways that God has made those things beautiful. So you're kind of able to look back on them. What about the person who's right in the middle of the mess and is like, that's all great row, but beauty is out of reach for me. What would you say to her?
Ro (52:10)
really sorry and I know that pain and I know the sorrow and I just don't isolate yourself. I think that is probably the biggest tool of the enemy is to get because your pain is your pain and it does feel like nobody else can enter into this but there are one safe friend that can just sit with you in the pain and not try to fix it.
but also not in fixing it, but at times can help you refocus because we get myopic in our pain. And sometimes we need some help just to broaden that out. And I think when we can learn to, we can hold two things at one time, we can hold deep sorrow, but we also can hold some joy. And in that journey,
for me because all's I saw was loss. All's I saw what life wasn't. What I wasn't getting, what I wasn't having, all what it wasn't. And I started on a journey of gratitude. And I'm not talking about happy, slappy, nah. I'm talking about I'm holding on like this. And God's just saying, just let go. Just open your hands.
Everything Made Beautiful (53:28)
right?
Ro (53:39)
and receive and it's a gritty grace. It's not a grace. It's a gritty grace, a gritty gratitude that says all of this is so hard but this one thing I can be thankful for. There's always that one thing and I'm not telling you to diminish your pain that this doesn't have all the power to
But if we do this and we're not gonna open our hands until it's over, we will miss God. God's ready. It's like me in the deepest part of my sickness. How does a God tell you and convince you he loves you before you're healed?
Only he can do it, but I had to kind of slowly open and let him come and meet me in that pain. Let him meet you in it. He he weeps with you. He sorrows with you and he wants to bring beauty for these ashes that you're sitting.
Everything Made Beautiful (54:49)
Yeah, so good. Thank you, Ro. This was so encouraging. Thank you. I just want to say it's no small thing to share your story. So thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for sharing the pain, but thank you for also sharing the beauty. I think anyone listening is able to identify with part of what you've shared and take that away as a nugget for today or a word in season, as I usually call it. So thank you for sharing with us today. We're really grateful.
Ro (55:19)
So good to be here. Thank you, Shannon.
Everything Made Beautiful (55:22)
Absolutely. Well everybody make sure that you are following Ro and following all that she's doing. I will put all of her information in the show notes and those of you that are wondering why I didn't ask her the question about the beautiful day it's because she answered it on our first episode. So
We will air that coming up in a little while, but I didn't forget. So don't email me and tell me I forgot. I didn't forget. She's already answered it though, and it was so good. So we're going to let that one stand. So thank you, Ro, and thank you to everyone listening. Keep in mind all the ways that God is making everything beautiful, including you. And we'll see you next time.
Ro (55:41)
Hahaha.