092 | Francois Monti | Scaling a City Cocktail Culture Through Middle-Tier Bars

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In this episode, I talk to Francois Monti, a renowned Cocktail Writer. We discuss the global cocktail scene’s uneven growth, from advanced cities boasting cutting-edge bars to emerging markets grappling with minimal training.

While high-profile venues attract headlines, Francois argues that second-division bars drive consumer adoption of cocktails. He highlights the shortage of skilled bartenders, many lacking foundational taste education (e.g., wine and food flavor insights), leading to haphazard quality.

Instead of focusing on big consumer-awareness pushes, Francois advocates strong trade relationships, mentorship, and recognition of diverse bartender career paths—even if that means contentedly staying in a single role long-term.

Local bar culture flourishes by ensuring bartenders can refine their palate and technique at multiple levels of the industry, eventually benefiting both consumers and spirits brands.

Timestamps:

00:00 Introduction and Welcome

00:45 State of the Cocktail Industry

03:36 Challenges in Cocktail Culture

08:23 Training and Skill Development

20:03 Mentorship and Industry Growth

25:06 Conclusion and Farewell

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Francois Monti

Drinks Writer | 50 Best Bars Chair

What is MAFFEO DRINKS?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

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Hey drinks builder, this is
Chris Mafia and you're listening

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Now let's get into today's.
Conversation.

Hi Francois, welcome to the
Mafia Drinks podcast.

Hey Chris, thanks a lot for
having me very excited about

this conversation.
It will be very interesting.

So let's start with the state of
the industry.

We met at BCB some time ago and
you know, we were talking about

many different things, but like,
one thing that really is

interesting for me is is to hear
your perspective of the state of

the industry in terms of
cocktail bars, the state in the

cities.
You are also involved with 50

best bars.
You travel a lot.

You get a lot of inputs from
many different cities in Europe

and outside.
From a consumer perspective and

also from a trade perspective,
there's a lot of confusion in

understanding what is what, what
are like.

Certain cocktail bars, the fancy
ones like the ones who want to

make it into the list, then the
ones that actually want to just

make good cocktails, and then
another world of basically

people that are super into gin
and tonic and spritz and and so

on.
Do you also feel this kind of

like unclarity or is it just me?
I don't know if there is a lack

of clarity.
I think a lot of it's difficult

to answer because first,
although there is a cocktail

movement globally, there is no
doubt about that.

Seeing every country and every
major city is at a different

stage of its evolution.
A lot of the techniques, a lot

of the drinks are the same
everywhere.

One of the ironies of the
calculated world today is that

everyone wants to do local
drinks, but they taste the same

everywhere in the world because
it tastes of that technique

instead of the actual
ingredients that they're using.

But that's not the subject for
today.

It's undeniable that there's
been something happening for the

last few years.
It's growing everywhere.

It's a very exciting time.
It's it's really a good time to

be evolved in this industry.
Within the hospitality world,

bartenders are in a class of
their own than not as famous as

chefs.
But it's exciting.

There's a lot of young kids they
want to be well, then there's

and there's always more demand.
It depends city from city.

But it's true that you can see
almost wherever you go that five

years ago you had a couple of
bars trying to do something

about anywhere in any relevant
city in the Western world.

And now what is really
noticeable is that even places

that didn't care about cocktails
five years ago are not wanting

to.
Which has rations.

Hotels aren't taking it much
more seriously.

Basically like London hotels
have been very important, but in

most other European cities it
was not the case.

Even theater lobbies or some
like freemium cinemas.

Are like, you know?
You have Bloody Mary, you can

try martini or you'll go to,
you'll go to a musical and

you'll have a, you can have a
cocktail where before it was

only champagne or even at
football games in Real Madrid.

It's just it's media dear old
stadium and it's the most

important club in the world.
And now they have an area where

they will be serving cocktails.
So everything points to this

being a very exciting time in
the cocktail world.

And maybe that's where the lack
of clarity comes from because

before it was very easy.
It was very segmented.

You had good cocktails at a
handful of places and now

everyone wants to do it.
A lot of people don't understand

the way this will move.
So you have people who maybe you

should just be happy to serve a
proper Negroni or proper dry

Mountaineer, proper mojito to
their client, but they'll think

the objective is being on a list
like 50 best brands are unsure.

Because the issue with the
cocktail world is that people

call for cocktails while, you
know, the the marketplace be

used to is a marketplace where
someone walk into a bar and say

Bacardi, Coke, be here and Tonic
and they are a bit unsure what

this means to them and how they
should deal with that.

So I think the uncertainty you
are perceiving is more from a

sort of or outsider perspective.
My issue is I've been an insider

for 12 years.
So my perspective is probably

going to be different.
And my perspective as so-called

the insider is I'm not worried
about this lack of clarity that

you're identifying.
I'm more worried about the

sustainability of the growth we
have in terms of human talent

and skill set.
Yeah.

And I agree that's actually
where I wanted to get the

dicotomy more than I'm clarity
if.

Maybe.
It's the right word.

To understand this, it's growing
and growing.

More and more people seems to be
able to make cocktails, but

actually there's a lack of
personnel and often there's a

lack of skill.
What I feel when I travel is

that they may be a super fancy
bar, but a very junior person

that hasn't been bartending for
a while, you get this unclarity

because like, it's supposed to
be a top cocktail bar with top

list.
And what was interesting for me

when I was reading one of the
articles you shared some time

ago from Kevin Armstrong about
the state of cocktail making at

the moment, no.
And if I remembered correctly,

the article was talking about
pre batching and how pre

batching is this killing
bartenders.

So there is this kind of like
dichotomy of super skilled.

It almost feels like young
people especially want to rush

into I want to make it instead
of getting their hands dirty.

Let me learn to do the basics
for a few years before I

actually can do and do some
fancy stuff.

I.
Think there's just the last

things you're mentioning there.
I'll go very quickly on a couple

of them and try to get more in
depth on one, which is

especially the skill set,
engagement, etcetera.

First, in terms of visiting a
supposedly top bar that's

actually not a top bar.
I'm sorry Chris, this is always

going to be like this.
I think one of the issues we we

really have in the cocktail
world is that a lot of consumers

are not trained to cocktails.
They don't understand me into

cocktails.
It's something new to them.

So they're making bars
successful where they they don't

really understand what they're
drinking.

A lot of what we called top
cocktail bars would be if there

were restaurants, trendy
restaurants, and no one would

call them the best restaurant
because we have that issue.

That's on the side of the
custom, on the side of the

professional.
I think there's also a big, big

issue with pallet training.
A lot of pros and sometimes

seasoned pros, which is a bit
sad to me, don't understand

taste and flavors.
They don't understand balance.

Is it sounds bad.
Any bartenders listening to this

is going to say who's this
hassle?

But honestly, I'm I'm dealing
with with bartenders, sometimes

very young coming into the brush
and other times a bit more

experienced who don't go out for
dinner.

They they don't go to
restaurants.

They don't drink wine.
When they end their shift, they

may have a Negroni or a beer.
They don't go and drink the

cocktails from everyone is they
don't train their parents.

I think this is a big issue for
me.

It's actually obviously
technique etcetera and how to

make a proper thing is very
important.

But the first step in to making
a proper drink is actually

identify a properly made junk.
A friend of mine is who owns the

bar in Madrid says sort of
kidding when we ask what's one

thing Young cocked about in his
trainer and he says wine.

That's a great point.
My version of that is if I walk

into a cocktail bar in any city
in the world, a lot of

bartender's order a dietary.
If the dietary is good, they can

move on to the cactus in the
menu.

My version of that would be I
walk into a bar, I've done my

homework.
I know where I want to have food

in the city.
I've, I'm better ask the

bartender where should I go for
food?

And if the recommendation is
good, then I know it's probably

going to be a good experience in
terms of cactus because that the

the pallet has been trained.
That's one side.

And I'm again, steering away
from the question in terms of

the quantity of talent that we
have in this industry.

There's something ironic.
I think 10 years ago the issue

was you knew you had to train
them from the ground up.

It takes someone who's a
cocktail waiter, a cocktail rate

for us, and then all right, that
person is interested in drinks,

bring them behind the bar and
start the basics from scratch.

This industry has been growing
so fast that you don't really

have the time to do that.
It used to be bar repudiators

who were doing the training, but
now in other faces they don't

have the time or the skills.
The people at the management

level are not skilled because
they went on the fast track, and

that's obviously an issue.
I think there's also a big issue

with how external training is
done.

There are a lot of baltonic
schools everywhere, but most of

the people who go out of those
Baltonic schools are useless.

Why are they useless?
They can use this for two

reasons.
In my experience, I've done a

lot of education.
I've been teaching for 10 years.

I'm not teaching how to stir,
but I'm teaching cartel history,

Brum vermouth, Hypertivo and
stuff like that.

I think one of the issues we
have is that 10 years ago, if

you were running about a new
school, most of the the, the

students you would get would
already have some notion of

hospitality.
There would be waiters, it would

have been trained in culinary
school or whatever.

There was a growth in cocktails
and that would have been an

opportunity.
The training was set for those

people.
Now, the issue is that you get a

lot of people into those schools
who have never really worked in

hospitality, don't have the
basis.

And of course you can teach
those people from scratch how to

make cocktails.
But because they don't

necessarily have that experience
in in the hospitality industry,

what you're selling them is the
promise that once they're out,

they'll find a job as a cocktail
bartender where most bar owner

in serious places will tell you
no, no, no, you're going to be

working on the floor.
You're going to be taking the

garbage out.
You're going to be watching that

is you're going to be a ball
back and you might be a ball

back for six months, one year.
And they're like, but I was

shown how to do milk punches and
that's what I want to do.

That's what I've been sold and
there is this disconnect.

I don't think the the training
needs today are the same as they

were five years ago because the
profiles of people's in the

same, the profile of the venues
aren't doing the Yarring are not

the same.
I think this is a big fear.

I'm not saying that the training
was good five years ago, there

were much less people doing
training five years, but the

explosion has been so big that
we're still playing catch up, I

think.
And that's a great point you're

raising because I think that's
where we go back to the

confusion from my side.
Not very often actually.

Also what happens is that that
person that learn how to do the

milk punch may get a very
important role in that bar

because there's lack of people.
So maybe they are rushing that

person into that position.
So that person is keeping all

the throwing the garbage and
doing the ground up, the bottom

up kind of thing.
And then you have this kind of

thing where positions are
getting very confusing names now

because you may have a bar
manager that has 20 years

experience.
So you may have a bar manager

with one year experience or a
head bartender with one year and

another one with five years.
And there's a lot of difference

and it's super interesting.
I mean, this perspective you're

bringing on learning and
development, I'm a big fan of

learning and development in
these terms and to really

understand where we are.
I've seen this in the last few

years.
A lot of schools sometimes like

really high profile famous
school that used to work only

with chefs, move into the
cocktail world.

They're not attracting people to
their cocktail trainings for the

right reason.
I there's one it's a very

prestigious culinary program.
They're doing a cocktail thing

and most of the top bars that I
know of don't take their studios

as interns.
They've tried and say no as

people come and expect to be
part of the creative process

straight away.
I'm not thinking them because

that's what they were sold
against, paying a huge amount of

money.
It's not the reality of the

cocktail world.
I know people who've been

invited to teach there as I'm
not going back.

What they wanted to hear is how
I got to that Instagram sort of

cartel.
They don't want to hear how I

build my business.
They don't want to hear, you

know, how I set up my teams to
for success, But that's not what

they're not interested in that
they want to know how the

characters that made it into
vanity theatre, that's what

they're interested.
Do you think there's a

connection with that on the fact
that probably, for example, if

you take cuisine as an example
now, cuisine has been very

hierarchical for centuries from
the French way and so on.

So people kind of like got
slapped on their face if they

try to go up the ranking, like
without being able to do so.

Now probably in the bar world
has been a little bit more

loose.
It has been more flexible, more

fun.
There is that element that chefs

are behind the wall in the
kitchen, while bartenders have

this prime position in the bar
where the people are.

And probably the fame has taken
over in this Instagram wave of

people taking pictures of
cocktails and the Instagram

ability of cocktails and so on.
So probably there's been a

perfect storm with COVID, the
lack of people, people live in

the industry, the middle
management disappearing, then

young people coming in Instagram
making cocktail famous, people

getting like, OK, maybe that
could be an easy career path.

You know, like it's, it's kind
of like a can that be so?

I mean, there's, there's
obviously there's a lot of

factors.
I think the, the, the issue we

now have on have nothing to do
with COVID.

I think COVID there was shortage
of personnel for the reasons you

mentioned.
People went out of the history.

Now it's because the
acceleration of the presence of

the cocktail in places where
they didn't have factors before

has been so big in the last five
years that even without the loss

of talent that some countries,
not all countries, some markets

I drink COVID, we would still be
in the ship.

Honestly, that didn't really
impact us.

But going back to the chef
thing, dealing with giants

differently, not being behind
the wall, etcetera, how you know

you attract different sort of
people and personalities.

But I think for me, what's most
interesting with the comparison

with restaurants is that you
need eating is a need and

drinking cocktails is not.
What do I mean by that?

It's obvious you are not going
to work in Michigan Star

Restaurant if you can't make an
omelette.

This is not going to happen.
You can work in a top cocktail

bar that may end up on the list
like 50 best and you can't make

it accurate.
So that's something we really

should be thinking hard about
because sometimes, you know, the

reasons why cocktails are
trending may be the wrong

reasons.
Maybe because it's new.

It's a novelty factor, but you
know, you go to Michelin star

restaurant once or twice a year
and you have an omelette maybe

once a week.
And if we want this great

moment, if you want to keep on
making money with cocktails, and

I certainly do want to keep
making money with cocktails, we

need to make sure that people
are able to enjoy classic simple

drinks everywhere.
And that there is not that idea

that cocktails, all these weird
technified thing that I actually

am not enjoying that much.
But you know, I do it once a

year.
And I can say to my friends,

wow, this crazy place, it was,
you know, hidden door or it had,

you know, it was a dragon or
smoke and stuff like that, which

is fine.
And it's important and it's been

very important evolution of
cocktail because you need to

convince people to spare with
their cash for something they've

never done before.
But I think we really need to

think about the next step.
And the next step is, is not

that.
This is super interesting.

I will, I would love to to spend
hours talking about this video.

And it's super fascinating
because I, I also feel like from

a consumer perspective, there is
this kind of like world of the,

I mean, let's call it the 50
best, but you know what I mean?

Like the fancy top cocktail
bars.

And then there's a world of the
gin and Sony where the waiter

waitress is kind of like fixing.
They're doing an espresso and

then they're feeling a spritz
and then doing a gin and Sony

and bringing it to the table
outside.

Now in a rush in summer, I feel
that there is a lack of the

middle ground.
There is this world in between

the stars and the, the basics.
And that's where we need to

work.
The middle ground is where we

need to bring cocktail culture
to the masses, not getting

people to drink loads of
cocktails, but to really

understand what is it.
It's a little bit like your wine

example that you made before.
That's fact.

Let's go from three EUR Chianti
from the supermarket.

Doesn't have to be a super
taskan, but let me drink a

proper €18 bottle of quanti that
is properly made.

It's the same thing in
cocktails.

How do I go from an upper spritz
to a Rotavap made fancy

cocktail?
And how do I get people to make

these two worlds speak to each
other?

Yeah, I mean, that's
complicated.

If I had the the answer to how
to bridge all those walls would

be selling my advice what would
be on the beach somewhere.

I think that's it's a very
important point for me.

The maturity of a cocktail scene
is in the a cocktail scene is

not measured by the premier
boss.

It's not measured by your
handshake or tear and lamentary

or trigger and Pony or Paradiso,
some group.

It's what I call second division
using footballing terms of

sports.
You know, I'm not saying that

using that term in the
derogatory sort of ways.

I think cities that or markets
that don't have a second

division making good cartels,
which means bar operators and

bartenders were happy to know
that they're working in a place

which is not competing in the
beginnings, which is not trying

to be on list, which is not
trying to be a was, which is

just happy to make customers
happy.

Making cocktails, just happy to
work and drink good drinks.

But also a healthy consumer base
where people would walk into

your bar on a regular basis to
have a dry Mountaineer like

cream heater or if you don't
have that, you don't have LCC.

I'm very aware of this because
this is what happened in Madrid

12 years ago.
I've been living in Madrid for

15 years now and 12 years ago I
thought, all right, we're in the

big league.
We had three or four really good

bars, really, really good bars.
And they were going to go

places.
Within six months.

They all closed down for
different reasons and we were

left with nothing.
I can tell you if there is a

massive accident and the the two
most relevant bars of Madrid

closed down within the next 6
months, we will still have our

healthy scenes because we have
dozens of balls who capture to

that middle ground.
And that tells me this is not

just a trend, it's getting into
the fiber of the city because

we're also seeing those balls
were not capturing so much for

tourists, but also more for
locals.

And that's what that's what we
should be striving for.

This is the mark of something
that is not going to go away

soon.
And in and in your experience,

how does that happen in the
sense that is it top down or

bottom up?
Is it like the top three bars,

for example, have a lot of
people in the team and then they

branch out and open their own
place?

Or is it coming from outside the
return diaspora from London or

New York that people go back to
their hometown and open their

bar?
How can we help support that

second division that I I love as
a term?

I think first you need mentors.
You need to be the owners or the

operation people at those time
bars to be actual mentors.

And mentorship also entails
telling your staff, look, I

think you need to leave and do
something else, which might be

open your own bar or go and
learn another skill set

somewhere else.
And it's important to have that

generosity of knowing that
you're not only working for your

business, but also for the
health of the cocktail scene,

which means mentoring from
inside but also from outside.

So being having people who are
open to share secrets,

knowledge, recommendations with
other would be operators, that's

obviously very important.
But also it has to come from the

bottom in the sense that you
need to have a Fiantele that

wants to drink cocktails and not
see some cocktails as a single

value.
If you don't have that, you're a

bit fucked.
How do you create that?

Well, it's complicated, but it's
here as a work and all to if you

have the leading bars are open
for six or seven years and then

you have big hotels coming into
town and blah, blah, blah.

You know, at one point something
that gets trendy, if it lasts

for long enough, is something
that you take for granted.

And if you take it for granted,
then maybe it's a bit more

easier that you walk into a bar
where you can have wine, you can

have beer, but you feel like a
cocktail.

And I think that goes to
something that's quite important

to foster.
And going back to the

mentorship, what I've seen is
also is crush crucial is that

you're not driving your
employees to think that your

model is the yummy model.
And what I mean by that, if

you're 50 best bar, ideally, you
know that people are going to

some of your staff is going to
get pushed.

They need to be hired by someone
else.

But if the healthy culture
within the business, I think

some of the employees are will
be drawn towards that model of

trying to be A50 best bar and
others would recognize that what

they really enjoy is dealing
with clients who are or making

that sick factors and then they
will leave you.

But that's because they want to
open their own space.

No stress, no fuzz somewhere in
the neighborhood.

So you have to have also that
dynamic within the thumb bars.

I think yeah, mentorship for me
is fundamental.

You have to have people there
aren't bar owners and barrel

bridges.
They only talk about their bar.

They only talk about their bars.
Others, when you talk to them,

they talk about their city.
And if you're lucky enough to

have more people to talk about
their city than about their

bars, within the top tier of
your cartel industry, there's

much more possibilities that
your city is going to grow.

I love that it's also having
like honest.

Conversations now to understand.
What's your place in all this?

Because I can be a bartender and
maybe at some point I realized I

like to make cocktails.
I mean, I like to make classics.

I don't like to use a Rotavapp
or whatever, or I always give

the comparison to the corporate
world.

Now maybe I want to be a brand
manager of my career.

I used to look down to people.
I was driven into career back in

the days and I was like, why is
this person being a brand

manager for 15 years?
What's wrong with them?

Brand managers, They don't want
to be a marketing manager,

marketing director, CE OS.
They don't want to, they don't

want that and there's nothing
wrong with that.

And if we don't change that
narrative, yeah, you are 12

years a brand manager, you're a
loser.

And instead of saying you are
the one that is getting the

marketing job of this company
going forever, there's nothing

wrong.
It's much better to be like that

that to burn yourself as a
marketing director for six

months and get fired.
Yeah, I think also about

industry was that anxiety where
you know, about thinking is not

a real job, what are you going
to do next?

And so they started thinking,
well, no, it is actually a

reader, but it's a career
because there is a career path

and career plus this and then
this and then this and then

that.
And no one told them that.

Yeah, but maybe you're a great
volunteer, but you'll be a shit

bomb manager.
Or maybe you're, you know, you

could move from bottom to bomb
manager would be good.

Or you could move to operation,
you know, operation director,

whatever you could be.
You are not made to be an owner

because you can't actually
manage money or you don't

understand the dynamic of
whatever.

And this is a narrative that
needs to be changed and I think

it's changing bit by bit.
I think there are many more

because of the growth of the the
cocktail industry.

There are many more avenues
opening, but it's not always

easy to navigate them, that's
for sure.

No, that's fantastic.
So I'm aware of your time.

I would love to spend another
hour and a half like speaking to

you because this is super
fascinating as it's all we can

to get to your inside.
But let's wrap it up here.

I want to leave some space for
you to mention who you are,

where can people find you?
And so leave some contacts for

people out there that want to
reach out to you, Francois.

Yes, so unfortunately I guess
most people will be listening to

this.
Our English speaker and most of

my published work is in Spanish.
Nowadays.

I have AI, have a sub stack and
use letters called highball.

It's complicated, JAIBOL, and I
really don't have time this year

for actual writing, but you
know, if you want to improve

your Spanish or if you're a
Spanish speaker, there's a lot

of, whenever I can, I will go
back to publishing on that

platform.
If you want to follow what I'm

doing, of course, I'm on
Instagram with Francois Monti,

but I have a consulting
business, consulting agency

working with brands, hotels and
restaurants, sort of trying to

work around quite a few of the
issues we've been mentioning

today and many more that we
haven't had time to discuss.

But maybe we'll do a Chapter 2
and a Chapter 3 at some point.

Absolutely.
The the agency is called a

Margeria, which is also, it's
complicated Spanish, which is

the bitter liquor version of
vermuteria.

Vermuteria is about where you
drink vermouth in Spain.

And so a margeria is where you
go for bitter stuff.

So yeah, this, this is this is
where I am.

Fantastic.
So thanks a lot Francois.

Was a great pleasure and an
honour to have you on and let's

talk soon.
Thanks for having me Chris, hope

you guys enjoy and hopefully
catch up.

Soon.
Fantastic.

Ciao, Francois.
Ciao, that's a wrap on today's

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