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Preventing that midlife crisis, one conversation at a time.
Erin Wawok (00:01.23)
Hey everyone, this is Erin. I just wanted to check in and update you on a couple of things and ask for your help. So, Kelly and I are almost done recording season one. You're listening to episode five. We have a couple more episodes to put out as well as a conclusion to our season as well. It has been a huge joy to get feedback from you on the episodes that we're producing. We've gotten so much positivity and I'm just so grateful for that and feel so...
privileged that we have gotten such beautiful feedback. So thank you to each and every one of you who has taken the time and the effort to give us your feedback. Most of those are coming by text to us or by Instagram messaging, which is awesome. But what would be the most helpful thing ever is if you could do two different things. The first thing is...
If you're listening to our show and you are not yet officially following the podcast, please make sure that you do that in the app where you're listening. So it looks a little bit different depending on where you're listening, but in any case, you either need to follow or subscribe to The Till in order to kind of help us get that boost. The more people that are subscribed, the more possibility that we are going to interact with brand new people who are hearing about The Till.
not through us because they know us, but because the algorithm is telling people that our content may be relevant to them. So that's the first thing. The second thing is because we've gotten so much positive feedback, we would love for that to show up in the comments and in the ratings for the podcast as well. So to those of you who have already commented on the apps like Spotify, Apple,
and Amazon Music, if you've already done that, thank you so much. If you have not, and you have given us feedback personally, we would really, really appreciate it if you would also do that in the app, because that, again, is what is going to bring in a larger audience, more people will be able to see our content, and hopefully that means that we'll be hitting more people who want to hear the kind of messaging that we're producing. So those two things would be tremendously helpful.
Erin Wawok (02:22.318)
Thanks so much again for all of your feedback and now we're onto the episode.
Erin Wawok (02:35.918)
Hey friends, thanks for showing up today. We're so glad you're here. I'm Kelly. I'm Erin. And this is The Till. My friendship with Kelly reaches as far back as our earliest memories as toddlers. We both grew up in Mexico, our parents were missionaries, and we formed a deep friendship as roommates in boarding school. Our friendship was deep, but of course we followed different paths into adulthood. We moved to different states, we've built our families, and...
we eventually lost touch. Here we are 15 years later, reconnecting over the complexities of finding our way in a life that has no roadmap. And that has brought us to the till. We're convinced that the most beautiful life happens when we don't follow a script. We're thrilled to bring you into the conversations we're having on wholeness, intentionality, and presence. There's still so much life to be lived, so let's get to work.
Erin Wawok (03:39.534)
All right, well, we had a great episode lined up this week that was in line with what Erin and I have been planning. I scripted out the whole episode and a conversation came up between Erin and I this week. We were casually checking in on one another and I was telling her something that happened as a result of therapy and that conversation felt so much more authentic.
And really the root of what we want to be talking about here on the till. So we scrapped episode two and we are bringing you something that is raw, real, and a little bit in the moment. So a little roughness. Very unscripted. Basically, I came away from therapy angry this week and...
what has become a practice for me is I end up writing poetry because I can tap into my feelings and emotions through poetry much more effectively than any other method. So I sat down and wrote a poem and it's called, it's not called Glass Slippers, but it's about glass slippers. It's called Humana and Erin's going to read it. She hasn't heard the poem. She hasn't read the poem. So she's going to read it out loud and then we will.
have a conversation from there. So Erin, take it away. All right. Opening the poem.
Okay. Yep. Humana. I stepped outside in glass slippers to walk the earth anew, careful to see what crushed beneath my own feet. Wounded and weary, I bled out too. A rouge of red with every step. And yet, what did my own feet kill? Fragile. Without the strength to know, I looked. Peering through the glass with pain.
Erin Wawok (05:40.526)
if only so my soul could bow to those who made me bleed. I too am them somehow. We wound and bleed and live and die alongside, all alongside each other. And we must too look and fight to see the humanity in one another.
Yeah, that, whoa. That's cool.
Erin Wawok (06:14.254)
I really like the...
Erin Wawok (06:21.198)
Just the idea of looking at the pain that we've caused, I think is not something that we hear people talk about very often. Like being intentional about that, I guess.
Erin Wawok (06:38.702)
Also, I really like where you said if only so my soul could bow to those who made me bleed I like what I take from that is like
just the part, or maybe just like the humility, just being so humble about what you've brought, you know, the junk that you're bringing to life, the junk that you're bringing to, you know, your relationships. There's so much here, I'm like basically overwhelmed to like know where to start really.
Something that as you read it, you can maybe get a moment to process a little bit more, but as you read it, I realized how subtle the idea of the glass slippers is where when I wrote it and told you about it, it was more pronounced in my head. But the idea of stepping out into the world in glass slippers is so that I can see what...
what I'm killing beneath my feet because we all step on things we don't mean to and we all hurt people we don't mean to and we don't notice. And so the thought I had is I need to be walking in glass slippers so I can see what damage I'm doing in my own life. And honestly, the heart.
behind it is that so that I can better identify with those who have hurt me, because that's that tends to be where I get stuck. Right, right. Yeah. I feel like there's something here too, about the just like the, I don't know if you want to call it like juxtaposition between the glass slippers that Cinderella wore, you know, and these kind of glass slippers, just because it's like, kind of,
Erin Wawok (08:45.102)
polar opposite intentions and wearing them almost. Yeah, like hers were to they were almost like a like a disguise or like a mask or you know, something that was covering up what was what who she was kind of and this is like, yeah, with the intention of specifically looking deeper into who you are, you know? Yeah, seeing more so that really caught my
Yeah. I've been reading a lot of Cinderella to my two -year -old. She calls it, what does she say? Cyndalella. Yeah, she calls her Cyndalella. And I just think that's so cute. And she wants to read. She wants to read the book all the time. So that's probably why that was, why that was in my mind. But, I told you when you, when you mentioned this poem and
you kind of just gave me the context for what it was about even. So I hadn't read it, but read the kind of the context of, or knew the context of it. and I told you that it's really interesting that you were thinking about those things because I, one thing that I've noticed is unique about my perspective of the world is that I'm always analyzing, like,
how other people move through the world because that informs how I move through the world. And I think a lot of that is actually because we grew up in a very like isolated community where we saw adults that basically all had the same job and kind of the same worldview generally and you know,
So not getting exposed to a wide variety of people and a wide variety of, perspectives and job titles and types of families. And, you know, there, there was just basically one in my mind, like one kind of person or one kind of adult, and either you are male or female. And so I, now I noticed that I am always looking to understand like, how am I supposed to be? You're like,
Erin Wawok (11:08.942)
And so I've noticed, I guess what I'm saying in that is I've noticed that people, my peers, my mom friends, don't necessarily do that like I do. They just kind of move through the world and I'm always like, well, you know, anyway. So in this specific instance, I notice that a lot of other people don't really reflect on...
wanting to see the hurt that they're causing or wanting to like, it's not as though they want to hurt people, but more just that if they do hurt people, it's just kind of a byproduct of life. And it's not something that a lot of people have the intention of changing or fixing. And more than that, it's not something that anyone wants to look very closely at.
because it's really painful. You know, it's painful to own up to your own shit and just trying to,
honest, being honest with yourself, I feel like is just so challenging sometimes because it can be so painful. Like basically what you've talked about there, like, man, I feel like marriage is marriage is a really good example of where that pain comes in for me very often is like, you know, I cause hurt all the time. And
I forget to think about that sometimes. I forget to like, yeah, I'm also human and I also am causing pain. You know, it's really easy for me just to think about how my partner is bothering me and, you know, not letting me live my best life or whatever. And then really when it comes down to it, it's usually like, I've got some, you know,
Erin Wawok (13:15.118)
I don't know what's it called like log in my eye or something like that, you know, something that's like huge and in my face that I'm supposed to be paying attention to and I'm just totally looking past. And then when it's pointed out to me, it's like painful, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I have to face that. And I think, and I think it's painful to...
You know, I'm in a position where, well, especially last week, I was looking back, you know, to my childhood and to talk about like, I had to survive that. Like, I have worked so hard to survive that. I'm working so hard now to even recover still and undo a lot of my thinking or...
trauma responses even. And so then to then be told, because of this, you probably hurt people this way. It felt so unfair. Like I'm like, you have no idea what I have been surviving and trying so hard to do and live life. And now you're going to tell me that I hurt people like because of it. Like I don't like I just didn't like have the capacity.
to hear that. But then I think that's where this poem brought me back to like, if I, maybe if I did look, maybe I would have more compassion or understanding, you know, for those who did hurt me because I have unintentionally hurt other people, you know, and the intention wasn't there.
I would say even maybe the carelessness wasn't there, just the awareness wasn't there and then people got hurt. And so, I don't know, I just realized like maybe if I frame it that way, you know, maybe that healing will come even sooner because I'm, yeah, able to be more humble about it and be like, yeah, we're all humans and we all don't get it right sometimes. Mm -hmm, yeah.
Erin Wawok (15:29.55)
I had this mentality for a really long time that if I was to admit to something, admit to failing or admit to hurting someone or whatever, that that was some sort of failure, like some sort of moral, where I would never get back to being good or get back to, I don't know, walking the right way or whatever.
And in fact, it's exactly the opposite. When I have, when I am humble and when I have the capacity, I really liked that you mentioned that, that like, you just didn't even have the capacity to, to, you know, be told that you might be hurting people. Like, are you kidding me? anyway, but yeah, like when I have the capacity to listen when I'm told that.
I caused pain and not react right away. I think that's the other thing is it's really easy to just react quickly because I don't know. It seems easier. It seems like it almost seems like that's what you're supposed to do kind of thing. yeah, but yeah, listening I think is huge. You know, just pausing and listening, that that actually brings so much healing and restoration.
rather than distance and rather than getting further away from who we want to be. That is the vehicle that moves us in that direction, is that humility, is that restoration or reconciliation. Yeah, absolutely. I think what you said, it gets us back to who we want to be. That
to me is like my why in life. Like, I think I've come to a point where I can't please people. Like, I can't live my life for other people. And so what I most try to make my choices out of is who do I want to be in the world? And will I be proud of myself after whatever decision is made? And that, you know, even in the process of healing, I'm trying to aim at that.
Erin Wawok (17:56.782)
Right? Like, who do I want to be at the end of this? Like, it sucks in the middle. But yeah, like I want to be a better person. I want to be more myself. And I want to cause less damage to those around me. And so that, you know, gets me back to my why and going to therapy and healing and working through relationships.
That was a really good, a really good point just on who do, who do we want to be? And, and could we just listen to, to those around us? Yeah. Yeah. I think I mentioned that I had a second point too. And actually to be perfectly honest, I don't know if this was the point I was going to make, but a second point that I can make. sorry I interrupted. No, no, no, that that's fine. It.
It worked out well because it was, it's kind of nice to hear. I mean, that's what dialogue is all about. Right. So, I think also you talked about how sometimes we hurt people and we're like totally unaware of it. And then it's brought up to us maybe even like years later, you know, that we, hurt someone or we find out that someone was offended about something and they never said anything. And I think very often.
I am like, well, tell me exactly what I did. Tell me how that offended you, blah, blah, blah, you know, all this different things. But again, back to the listening thing, not really with the intention of listening, really with the intention of figuring out how I can put, put together my argument so that you can understand my perspective. And it's very uncommon in conflict to, not ask for those details.
But what I have found is that it's actually not that healthy for me to know all of those details because it's not great for me to rehash those. I actually end up kind of adding guilt to myself for those things that will haunt me for afterwards, like way after the conversation. And then it doesn't really help the other person, I don't think.
Erin Wawok (20:22.83)
Like for their, for that conversation, for that like moment of our relationship, I don't think it really helps that be any better by them talking through the details than for me just to say, I wasn't aware of that, but I'm so sorry. You know, like, thank you for telling me now. And I just want you to know that I don't, you know, I wouldn't have intentionally done that, but I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry that I hurt you.
And I want to be more aware of these things. So thank you for letting me know. you know, I'm always growing and changing and evolving and, you know, just that, that sort of conversation. It's just, I've noticed it's kind of uncommon, in conflict that I've heard or that I've witnessed for people to approach it that way. But I have found that that's usually a better way to move forward is just to.
you know, reconcile honestly, but not super drawn out. and then just move forward together and, and also just know that it's going to be a little bit awkward and that's okay. You know, like you'll work through it. You'll get to the other side and you'll be really thankful for that experience too. And again, it gets you closer to that person that you want to be. Yes. Yeah. No, so good.
Since we're here to kind of draw connections to our own experience and our, you know, our specific experiences being children of missionaries and seeing one way of life. one thing that we didn't experience a lot is adults who gave children the same autonomy and respect as they had for themselves. I have since realized that.
It is completely unhelpful to see myself as being different or more special, somehow superior. That doesn't exist. It doesn't matter who you are. You are human. Like you said in the last paragraph, like, we wound and bleed and live and die all alongside each other. And we too, and we must to look and fight to see the humanity in one another. I, I,
Erin Wawok (22:48.494)
that kind of just hits on all of that where which is like, hey, by the way, there's nothing better about you than there is about anybody else. And that also is to say that this kind of failures that you see in that person that you're real mad at, because they hurt you, and because they, you know, screwed you up or whatever. Like, you have those same capacities within you too. And yeah.
It's all about the choices that we make, you know, which is why the intention, why intention means so much and why it is so important. Because if we are not living purposefully, how do we not just do exactly what people have done to us that has been so painful?
I think, yeah, like you were saying, like recognizing like we're all doing life alongside each other. Like whether we want to or not, there will be people in our lives that we're living alongside, right? Like let's just recognize that and make the best of what we have with who we're living with. And I mean that in all sense, not just our family, like we're living in this world.
in a world community in this time and place, and we could make something great of it if we decided to, right? Like, if we all decided, hey, let's be intentional and move together, recognizing our humanity and make something of it. And that takes a lot of forgiveness and grace to do that. But I think the core of what would make that successful is,
we're in this together. And we need to recognize, you know, we're all going to step on each other's toes. So let's just be aware of where we're stepping when we step. And like you said, you know, listening. Yeah.
Erin Wawok (25:00.43)
Okay, so as we wrap up our conversation today, our challenge for you is to just spend some time thinking about this topic. I am fairly certain that most of you have come up with a scenario or two in your head where you've been hurt by someone and or when you found out that you have hurt someone and then had to deal with those emotions.
So spend some time thinking about that, processing it, and maybe considering specifically where maybe you can take ownership in different things, not for the purpose of feeling guilt, and of course not with the purpose of feeling any shame, but more just with the purpose of reflecting on how you can show
the other person or the other party grace and compassion for their humanity. Because putting that out into the world is how we receive more of that ourselves. So to close us out today, Kelly, I would love to just hear you read your poem in your own voice. Let's just leave our audience with that. Happy to close us out. Humana. I stepped outside in glass slippers to walk the earth anew.
Careful to see what crushed beneath my own feet. Wounded and weary, I bled out too. A rouge of red with every step, and yet, what did my own feet kill? Fragile, without the strength to know, I looked. Peering through glass with pain, if only so my soul could bow to those who made me bleed. I too am them somehow. We wound and bleed and live and die.
all alongside each other, and we must too look and fight to see the humanity in one another.