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A daily podcast delving into the biggest stories of the day throughout the sports betting and igaming sector.
Andrea McGeachin (00:01.422)
Hi everybody. Welcome to our iGaming Daily with a Niosf takeover. I've got a second chance to have a chat with one of my favourite people, Bill Pasquale III. And before we go into our chat, I just want to cover some things that we're here with the benefit of our sponsor OptiMove. The number one CRM marketing solution for our gaming market. There's 56 % of the EGR Power 50 personalised their player experiences with OptiMove.
And as a special offer, OptiMove are offering new clients a free first month when they buy OptiMove. And for more information and claim that free month, go to optimove .com and forward slash SBC. But links will be there at the end of the podcast episode description so you can see that as well. So don't go off just yet, because we're going to talk to Bill. Bill, hello.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (00:55.034)
Hello, Andrew.
Andrea McGeachin (00:56.238)
How are you? I know that you're speaking with earphones today, but only the left hand is working. So I won't speak to you. I'm not going to speak to your right ear today, but thank you so much for bearing with us. It's lovely to see you.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (01:03.482)
Ha ha.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (01:07.13)
There you go.
It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me.
Andrea McGeachin (01:13.166)
One of the things that I wanted to have a second session is that things have moved on and there's some things moving quite differently, aren't there? It's quite amazing at the moment in the market, especially with RG.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (01:28.218)
Very much so. First of all, Andrew, it's always a pleasure to be with you and your extraordinary company, Neosurf. I was just with Optimove over Malta a couple of weeks ago. Love those folks. And again, thank you for having me on iGamingDaily. In terms of RG, one of the big things that I've noticed this year is a lot of the investor tracks are talking about...
the importance of investing in RG. Like there's new opportunity for the investment track, folks. And so that's new. I know there's a lot of startup companies in the RG space, whether it's prevention or treatment, but it's a very exciting time. And I think it's important for the sustainability of the industry.
Andrea McGeachin (02:14.094)
Yeah.
Andrea McGeachin (02:21.102)
I think, well, you know my view coming from a payments part. I stand up and wish that the payments industry get more involved. And I do say it probably on all the podcasts I'm on. So I'm repeating myself, but for a reason. The recent maneuver of some of the operators going towards a different coalition, not all of the operators joined. What's your view on that, Bill?
I'm in the US, guys. I'm always listening. All about the US. Go on.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (02:51.93)
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (02:55.45)
Yeah, I'm a little frustrated because as you know, Andrea, I've been on the Entain Foundation board for four years now, working not only in America but across the globe on trying to promote the importance of RG in a meaningful way, not just chatter or check the box.
Andrea McGeachin (03:07.47)
Yeah.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (03:19.29)
Don't want to cast aspersions against any company because I think they're all lovely and wonderful but I think that It's disappointing and it almost seems this new organization that's forming of the tier one operators around RG is more fluff than stuff And I'm disappointed about that
Andrea McGeachin (03:41.454)
gosh, right.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (03:45.53)
But what I do want to recognize because you are the consummate professional, you have an extraordinary company, not just because of the power of what you do, but because of the power of your leadership. It's very few companies in gaming or payment processing that are led by women. And that's very important to me.
In addition to that you are a thought leader because although some payment processing companies are talking about RG You're actually doing something about it, and I think you're being a trailblazer That's fantastic But you know what you've realized a long time ago and many are starting to realize is it's more than just chatter We all know what the problem is The issue is what's the solution?
Andrea McGeachin (04:39.918)
Yes, it is about what is the solution. Yes. And it's...
I know that you've got your opinion and I'll save my opinion because I think it's the same. I think you might find I'll just say ditto at the end of what you've got. What would you say is the solution, Bill?
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (04:55.514)
Ha ha.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (05:00.826)
Yeah, so first of all, there is no bulletproof final answer, right? It's an evolution. It's an ongoing process. I think the answer is we need to embrace the fact that this is an entertainment industry. It needs to embrace the principles.
of RG and consumer protection and responsibility. It cannot treat the players, the customers, as the traditional brick and mortar industry treated it. And you know this, Andrea, and I've represented just about every major casino company in America.
And you know they they have to recognize that their legacy was all you really did was when somebody came into your casino you asked for their ID to make sure they were 21 and Then they went off and there was really no tracking of their behavior But they treated the gambling addicted customer as a VIP
I gaming cannot afford to do that. Whether it's sports betting online or horse racing or lottery or casino and poker, we have to be far more advanced in self -regulation. So I think the solutions are an ever -evolving real commitment from the leadership of all these companies like yours to really impute in their...
employees the importance of RG. It's not just about chasing customers to double down and it's certainly not encouraging customers to continue with bad behavior.
Andrea McGeachin (06:50.478)
Yep. So I am going to say ditto. I'm going to add a couple of things that I think within that I'd be happy to have this conversation. And there's a thing about data sharing. But what data sharing is, is that, yeah, we can all share data, but it's a collaborative approach. Now I too, with your support, have been able to gather and meet the RG elements of the operators and their
Passion, individual passion is great. As you say, the great folks, there's a lot of amazing people there. And I know that trying to get an ability to share data to understand that will help the players is something that's important. And I think you're right about the team understanding because the team within an operator within a payments company or another service is the more that you're involved in it and understanding what it's about.
is you can actually start to see what you can do. And I've had an experience this week of, you've seen it, Bill, about our dashboard of user experience of the player. And my decision science team, there's a guy that deals with user experience, presented me with some stuff. I looked at it, well, even I can understand that. So if I can understand that in a few minutes, then that'd be great to present.
And that's coming from somebody who isn't necessarily employed to be in the gambling industry or employed to be in RG, but he understood it. And I do think you're right that we've got to have that all the way through, be it an operator or a service provision, totally. And I think, do you think we've got more ways to go to make sure that what we're communicating to the players is in their language? I mean, for example, they don't know what RG stands for really, but...
What do you think?
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (08:46.842)
Well, I was just talking with your colleague and our dear friend Sue Page, your North American CEO. It's her birthday today, exactly. And we were talking about—and I'm not going to give away the information because it's your privy to it.
Andrea McGeachin (08:56.078)
It's her birthday, yeah.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (09:09.882)
But some of the data you've gotten back from some of your research folks has been extraordinary.
Andrea McGeachin (09:13.102)
Yeah.
Andrea McGeachin (09:17.614)
Isn't it? Yeah, we've got to announce it, but you're absolutely right.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (09:22.106)
The players may speak a different language than we're used to in the industry, but that's okay. We can socialize that. But the fact of the matter is it's an extraordinarily important issue for players. They may call it something different, a different tagline, but if we're not across this in a very strong, meaningful...
and ever evolving way, the industry is going to collapse. You're already seeing some examples of politicians using some of the dodgyness in professional sports and trying to attribute it and blame the sports betting industry. Well, the fact of the matter is the only reason they know about it, for the most part,
is because the legal regulated market allows you to have that kind of information. There's no information to be gained from the black market because, excuse me, it's a black hole. And so, you know, there's a lot of things going on now. And again, you come from a very mature market.
I'm in a very immature market. We're in our nascent form Just a five years now into sports betting and about ten years in a couple of states into I gaming The good news is we haven't had any major crash and burn, you know the cyber security player protection The data all that has been very positive
But the issue is the industry needs to do a better job of getting our messaging out proactively, not reactively.
Andrea McGeachin (11:15.95)
Yeah. See, I love that also how you talk about the language socialize it, but you're right. It needs to be the proactive. Yeah, I do come from or currently, I mean, obviously working in your market as well, but from a mature market. And if you don't do it proactively, then you're sweeping up like we are in different countries out here in Europe, which is some of it's being listened to. I mean, I must admit the regulators across the US seem to be...
far more engaging than they are in Europe. I might get shot for saying that out loud, but I'm going to say it anyway. That's not true for all of them. I would absolutely called out the Netherlands as being engaging, which to a payments company, I found that amazing. But the proactive, yeah, because the sustainability piece is that if you don't, you spend half your life trying to renegotiate to try and figure out what the right answer is to maintain it and sustain it.
And when you're doing that, the black market's just got a freedom to keep going and it's not right.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (12:15.414)
Exactly. Exactly.
Andrea McGeachin (12:17.262)
not right. And that's the most unfair thing on the players. So that's where the vulnerability really comes into a big issue. Well, this is a good conversation. Do you have hope?
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (12:33.69)
I do. My concern now, Andrea, is more related to some of my clients and the tier one operator section of my client portfolio because...
I have been lobbying my clients more than I've been lobbying governments and regulators. Lobbying them to try to understand that we haven't done a great job, and I take responsibility for this. I'm not just casting aspersions, but we haven't done a great job of getting our messaging forward. And the messaging can't be just throwing talking points out and putting them into the mouths of people.
who don't appreciate relationship building. So let me give you a quick, and you cut me off if you have to move on, but a quick example of this dating back to 2010 when I was the first lawyer lobbyist in America to speak to a legislative body about whether or not to regulate iGaming. It was before the Senate.
Andrea McGeachin (13:47.246)
Yeah.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (13:50.202)
gaming committee in New Jersey and it was in February 2010 and several members of the committee including God rest his soul one of the wonderful leaders who's since passed away the former mayor of Atlantic City Jim Whelan who was the chairman the senator of that committee.
And I knew I had the support to get it out of the committee, but I was trying to lobby and advocate so that it was unanimous and not just four to three or five to two.
Senator Turner said to me well bill. I'm really concerned about my constituents I don't want them to lose jobs because you're bringing I gaming in because a lot of them work in the brick and mortar industry I went through that explained that it doesn't cannibalize and all that but then I began to also share a story and saying we're social animals, but
Let me not lecture you, let me just give you a anecdote. You have a beautiful kitchen, I'm sure, in your home, Senator. I have a really nice kitchen, too, full of food, and the fridge is full. Yet we still go out to eat, right? So there's still that need for interaction. This is pre -pandemic, you know, before we even had Zoom and, you know, WebEx and all. But...
What I also was trying to educate is by regulating, you're doing more to protect the player because now in the iGaming world we can monitor player behavior, use it to our commercial advantage, yes great, not in an irresponsible way, but also use it to try to slow players down, track their behavior so they're not going off the grid.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (15:41.338)
We haven't done that job in a macro way in the industry because I think that's a powerful message that most politicians just don't know, nor should they. It's our responsibility to educate them.
Andrea McGeachin (15:57.422)
So there's where the hope is of how we can get that somewhere. As usual, Bill, you come out with the right information and stories because you've been in it. You're pioneering it. You can see stuff. And I love how you hear, listen, take part, and then make sure we all understand it. I've sat in a few symposiums and equivalent, and I thank you for passing these messages out there. But you're right, we've got to get it wider.
Really got to get it wider, very much so. And as you know, I have a passion that it's, we've already said it, it isn't just the operators, it's the rest of us that are in this ecosystem. We all have a responsibility and an accountability. It is so, so important and I just hope, I have hope that I'm a small payments company in comparison to some of those big multi -brand, multi -international brand names.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (16:29.658)
Yep. Yep.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (16:40.602)
That's right.
Andrea McGeachin (16:57.582)
And I keep saying, please don't just put a website page up. Please don't just put some copy in your advertising. Please take part. Please be part of it if you want to see this industry. So there's me on my pedestal as well. Now, listen, I want to ask you a couple of other questions. How's Archie the dog? Last time I spoke to you, you were in the car and he was on your lap. You were about to take him to the vet. So I was just wondering, how is Archie?
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (17:16.25)
Or she's...
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (17:22.138)
Yep.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (17:25.69)
Archie's doing great and his sister, his bigger sister Daisy, Archie is a golden doodle. We adore him. He's just turned three years old and Daisy is a Burma doodle. They're both minis so they weigh about 25, 26 pounds. About 50, I guess that's like 55 kilos I think, something like that.
Andrea McGeachin (17:45.454)
Right.
Andrea McGeachin (17:53.582)
No, it's 1 .6 kilo to a pound. So it's a little bit less. Yeah, yeah, yeah. About 12 kilos, 13, yeah.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (17:56.771)
it's 1 .6 kilo, okay. Okay, I gotcha, I gotcha. I see. Great dogs, really love them. We're going to the beach this weekend, so we'll enjoy them there. Thank you for asking.
Andrea McGeachin (18:08.846)
No, that's that. I think it's interesting that last time we were having a big conversation about things and seeing the dogs. I know these podcasts are all about us industry side, but we're actually human. And I love the story about the kitchen and going out. There are things as well that I'm hoping that we can pursue and keep banging on about, I suppose, Bill.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (18:22.842)
That's right.
Andrea McGeachin (18:37.358)
So I think in my view, hope is let's keep going. And you're right about some of the information. Sue would kill me if I announced it right now, because we're about to push out that data. But yeah, but I was very excited to see that some validation from users about what they see as important. And there's some information there. But the most important thing to say about is it will be shared. It's not just going to be sitting in our pockets. And that's what I want everybody else to really hear. Do you see much of that happening?
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (18:47.802)
Can't do it. No, no.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (19:08.602)
Well, I don't want to look like I'm unduly flattering you, but I am trying to make a point. We need more CEOs like you. And why is that? Not only because you run a successful company.
But because you understand that leadership starts at the top and doesn't just dictate to employees, but you set an example, you set a tone. A lot of these tier one operator CEOs, and I know most of them, just about all of them, are very smart, wonderful people that have been, to this point, relatively commercially successful.
The problem is, is when you get into a room and you have commercial people who are doing business development and sales and the RG people walk in, heads hang low.
the commercials, the business development people don't want to be around RG people. Why? Because they have a culture and an intuition to believe they're stopping me from gaining my bonus this year. But what they don't understand is, okay, so if you get your bonus this year, what about continuing so you're able to get bonuses, maybe a little bit less, but continuously over years?
decades. That's what we need to produce. More leadership that does it by example and not dictate or caveat. And educate the employees that it's important for us to all embrace protecting the most precious commodity, our license and our consumers. And if we do that, we'll end up crossing
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (21:15.706)
the Rubicon and getting to a better position.
Andrea McGeachin (21:19.374)
That's just an amazing statement to finish with and I think it's a really, really important message. You know that I would sit here and say ditto again, but the message, in fact I'm not going to ask you anymore, I might ask a little bit of a fancy question, but let's end on that, Bill, let's end on that, because that's seriously important. And anybody who's listening, if you've got views on that, come on, feed it back, because I think that's what we've got to do. It's...
It's still gonna be a long journey, but I think it's absolutely important. I say, I'm gonna shout his name now. Elia is the guy that's done it in our team. He looks at user experience and if any of the rest of my team is listening, I'm only calling him out because of this, but it just backs up what you've just said. We're a payments company and believe in that, but it's right for everything. I would like to close with saying thank you.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (21:53.818)
It sure is.
Andrea McGeachin (22:14.894)
Thank you for only listening in the left ear because you couldn't hear it with your earphones in the right ear. So doing that and still getting along was fantastic. Thank you. And I'm going to see you soon and I'm going to speak to you again soon and get that big hug. You do give really good hugs. And thank you very much for coming on this podcast. I'm so pleased to talk to you and your views are just so immense. Thank you.
Bill Pascrell, III (BP3) (22:44.09)
Thank you very much, Andrew. You have a beautiful weekend and I look forward to seeing you soon.
Andrea McGeachin (22:49.166)
Absolutely.