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Hear from the folks that live, breathe and know the national parks best.
Hi everyone. Thanks for checking out the Safe Travels podcast. My name is Joey. I'm currently at Death Valley National Park. And earlier this morning, I sat down with Matt LaMar who is a park ranger, and we discussed the gold tier dark skies.
Joey Liberatore:Alright. So in this episode, we're gonna be talking about dark skies. But before we get into that, I wanna talk about your journey as a park ranger and and how you got here. So, Matt, I know you're from Virginia. So what has your journey been like becoming a park ranger and then ending up at Death Valley?
Matt Lamar:Yeah. I grew up, my parents took me to national parks, national historic sites all over Virginia, and I knew I loved history, and I knew I loved the outdoors. I loved to hike, backpack, things like that. And so the more I thought about it, I thought there's a career that combines those two things, history with the outside being able to work and live in some of the most beautiful places in the country. It it was a pretty compelling case.
Matt Lamar:So I didn't think about too long and I started first interning and volunteering for several parks just trying to get my foot in the door. And then eventually, I got my first kind of green and gray position in a small monument in Nebraska actually. A place called Scottsbluff. Couldn't recommend it more. It's a beautiful little park in western Nebraska.
Matt Lamar:And since then, I've had the opportunity to work at at 7 different parks, all around the country, but Death Valley was a place that the first time I came here I I really have fallen in love with it. There's there's no park really like it and, you know, I was here mostly in the winters for for a couple years, and then they asked me if I wanted to come here and be here year round even in the summer, and I said sign me up. And no regrets so far. The winters are the summers are hot, but this is such a great place to live, to recreate, to explore. It's one of those parks that you can spend a lifetime here and not see at all.
Joey Liberatore:Has the heat grown on you at all? Are you used to it at this point? Is that even possible?
Matt Lamar:You know, there's something exciting, about being here during the hottest parts of the the summer. When you're talking about a 125 degrees plus, if you're you're talking about a 128 degrees plus or a 130, those are really, really exciting times. There's kind of an energy in the building from the visitors, from the staff. Because if you're gonna live in the hottest place in the world, you kinda wanna see can you can you get to the highest temperatures ever. So there is excitement.
Matt Lamar:You know, it's no different than living in Alaska during the winter. You know, there are certain times of the year where maybe you're spending a little bit more time indoors. Maybe you're using that vacation time to go out to the mountains and some cooler elevations, but I have really come to appreciate summer here. It is a special time. We do get a lot of visitors, particularly from Europe, who are coming here, and they wanna know what 50 degrees Celsius feels like, and it's fun to share that experience with our visitors.
Joey Liberatore:You mentioned the process of becoming a park ranger and your love for history and education. Is there a specific area within the parks that you've always wanted to specialize in or have a particular interest in?
Matt Lamar:Yeah. The park service is great because there's such a variety of jobs. There's so many different divisions, anything from maintenance and law enforcement to education and administration. So there's lots of different gaps that you can fill that positions that you can work for the park service. For me, I always really enjoyed engaging with the visitors.
Matt Lamar:Mhmm. Telling people about these special places, what makes them so unique, why they're worth protecting. And so, here in Death Valley I've got the opportunity to talk about so many different things. The wildlife, the geology, but the thing that I do work the most with actually at this park is is night skies and astronomy. I do lead our astronomy programming here at the park, as well as plan our dark sky festival.
Joey Liberatore:That'll lead us perfectly into this topic of this episode because, Death Valley is one of the best places in the entire country in a stargaze. And according to the Dark Sky Association, it's a gold tier rated park, which essentially means it's as close as you're gonna get before light pollution existed, which is really, really cool. Can you talk about, you know, how special it is to come here and experience maybe seeing the Milky Way for the very first time?
Matt Lamar:Yeah. We do have fantastic night skies here. But on top of that, we're also relatively accessible. We're 2 hours from Las Vegas. We're 4 hours from Southern California.
Matt Lamar:So 30,000,000 Americans can come here within a day's drive. And when they get here, what they're gonna see is they're gonna see a night sky that's similar to what maybe their ancestors would see. What people would have seen for 100 and 1000 of years with more stars than you can really reasonably count, where you can see that Milky Way, a clear band across the sky, where you can see other galaxies like the Andromeda galaxy, with the naked eye. And for most of us, we don't have the ability to experience that in our day to day life. I didn't have that experience living and growing up in Virginia.
Matt Lamar:It is something that over really just the last 100 years has in some ways been taken away from us, because of this prevalence of lights, and light pollution. We don't have that same connection with the night sky that people did for, you know, as long as we've been around. You know, people have been looking up there and wondering and telling stories about the sky above us.
Joey Liberatore:What are the harms in that? What are the harms in light pollution and not being able to to tell those stories and learn about, you know, our place in the universe?
Matt Lamar:Yeah. I think definitely that that connection. You're losing that connection, which people have had for 1000 of years. Astronomy is often regarded as our oldest science Because even a couple 1000 years ago people were meticulously tracking the movement of stars and planets. Thinking about how it might impact them.
Matt Lamar:And this is something that has interest us till today. But it's not just that kind of, that that connection. There's also very practical reasons, to be concerned about things like light pollution. There are real impacts to plants and animals. Birds in particular and sea turtles on the coastlines, all impacted by light pollution, getting disoriented, increasing mortality rates.
Matt Lamar:And then there have been quite a few studies move over the last 10 to 15 years showing that it's not just wildlife, it's also humans. That people that work in cities or work night shifts, people that are introduced to to lots of light, their bodies don't produce as much melatonin, and so they don't sleep as well. You get more anxiety, potential leads to obesity, and even cancer. And so those studies are still ongoing, but a lot of that literature is coming out saying that, no. It's not just that connection to the night sky we're losing, but there are real fundamental health impacts, from 24 hour lighting.
Joey Liberatore:When visitors come up to you after seeing the night sky here in Death Valley for the first time, what are some of the things that you hear from them?
Matt Lamar:You know, a lot of people have a a sense of wonder. You know, particularly when people see the Milky Way for the first time. It's something that we've heard about. People are aware, kind of, it exists. But to see this band of stars, you know, billions of stars, so far away you can't make out their individual light, but so many that they create this collective light that reaches us here on earth.
Matt Lamar:That's a really, really special experience. And then during our programming when we do telescopes during the winter months, people looking through a telescope and seeing the rings of Saturn or the moons of Jupiter, you can see a kind of light bulb go off that this is something they've been told their whole life existed. That there are rings around Saturn, and here is proof looking through this telescope that, yes, they do exist, that this astronomy is real, and our understanding of the night sky is just getting so much better over time.
Joey Liberatore:Do you think visitors when they come here and they see that for the first time that there's, like, the sense of wonder even when they go home from the park that it's something that they think about and they don't wanna return to or get more curious about and learn even further from what they saw? We certainly
Matt Lamar:hope so. Here in Death Valley, astronomy programming is our most popular programming. I think again because it's definitely something they can experience in their own lives and something they wanna experience in person, to see it with your own two eyes. So we are seeing astrotourism skyrocket, and more and more people every year are coming to get those experiences, sharing that experience with others, which then is a self fulfilling cycle of feeding more and more people, to the parks to get that. And, I think it's really special and I I hope it continues and people do take those moments with them and share it with others.
Joey Liberatore:In our next episode, we'll talk a little bit more about geology and climate, but I know clouds above Death Valley are not so common a lot because of the mountain ranges that are around the park. Does that play a factor into the visibility of what you can see at night here?
Matt Lamar:It does help. Absolutely. You know, we still average, I think it's about 200 and between 270, 290 clear days a year, which means you still do have about, you know, 90 to a 100 days of of cloud. So I can't guarantee there won't be clouds here in Death Valley, but your odds are are fairly good coming to the park. And so the fact that we so how much light pollution?
Matt Lamar:The chances that's gonna be a clear sky. All those lead to generally a really good stargazing experience. Now our park is the size of Connecticut. So it's good to realize that depending on where you stargaze in the park, you might have different experiences. Some areas you might actually get some light pollution from like Las Vegas.
Matt Lamar:Other areas of the park, there's going to be really no light pollution at all. Particularly in the more remote backcountry areas of Death Valley. And then the other thing that I just want to mention for people that are coming to Death Valley to stargaze, know what experience you're looking for. One of my favorite experiences is walking out at a place like Badwater under the light of a full moon. To see that salt reflecting that light, I think is a magical experience.
Matt Lamar:But if you're coming to see the Milky Way, that's gonna be the worst time to come to Death Valley. You're not gonna see the Milky Way if there's a full moon. And so be aware of what cycle we're in, with the moon, when it's rising, when it's setting, how long is it up, particularly if you do wanna see a really dark night sky. If you wanna see all those stars, if you wanna see the Milky Way or the Andromeda galaxy, you wanna come when the moon is gonna be less prominent or not visible at all in the night sky.
Joey Liberatore:To your point, I there is a moon right now. I'm at the park and I was at Badwater Basin last night and you didn't even need a headlamp. It was so bright and you could see your moon shadow on the salt which was so so cool to experience. You're right. There's a different type of experience that you can have even when the sun is out.
Matt Lamar:Yeah. 100%. I think when we when you live in a city or even a town, you kinda don't think about how bright the moon is. Mhmm. Here in Death Valley, because there's no other lights around, it's almost jarring.
Matt Lamar:We get people that will come in to the visitor center after camping under a full moon, and they'll just be like, it was so bright I could barely sleep. It's something we just don't think about in our everyday life. When we come to a national park like that valley, we see a natural night sky. You you really recognize those nuances.
Joey Liberatore:You mentioned different galaxies that you could see here, in the sky, and you mentioned the Milky Way. What exactly is that for folks that don't have any familiarity, you know, with astronomy or with the night sky?
Matt Lamar:Yeah. So the Milky Way is our home in the greater universe. So most people are probably familiar with our solar system. So our solar system, we have a sun. There's 8 planets, and we're one of those 8 planets.
Matt Lamar:But we're surrounded by 1,000,000,000, 100 of 1,000,000,000 of other stars that are all gravitationally bound together into this spiral disk, and that is our Milky Way galaxy. And so that's what we call whole. And within the greater universe, there are 100 and billions of other galaxies. Only one that you can see with the naked eye outside our Milky Way here in Death Valley is is the Andromeda Galaxy, which is kind of our sister galaxy that's close to us. But, you know, those are 2,000,000 light years away.
Matt Lamar:So the light that we're seeing from that Andromeda galaxy took 2,000,000 years to reach us here on Earth. So far away. And so we gotta be happy with what's in our our neighboring area sometimes. That's mind boggling
Joey Liberatore:to think about in terms of time to get here. So when we're looking up into the sky, we're not seeing real time. Is that correct?
Matt Lamar:Yeah. When you look at the stars, you're you're traveling through time. You know, that light started traveling to you many years ago. Our next closest star is about 4 light years away. And so when you look at that star, that light started traveling you 4 years ago and then that light is just reaching your eye right now.
Matt Lamar:And so if someone on a planet out there had a telescope and they could look down here on Earth, they'd be looking at Earth from 4 years ago. Seeing all the things that happened, back in 2020. So we see a lot of people inside at
Joey Liberatore:that point. I was about to say, maybe that's not the year to look back on.
Matt Lamar:Maybe not. Maybe not. But, some of the stars we can see, you know, 2,000 light years away. So if you were looking at, you'd be looking at, you know, the time of Confucius. That's incredible.
Joey Liberatore:What is what is some research that visitors can do before they come to the park? So when they do look into the night sky they know a little bit more about what they're looking at. I know a lot of people will look up and notice the dippers, but what are other really unique formations that are in the sky that you know visitors can get familiar with before visiting?
Matt Lamar:Mhmm. You know, technology is a wonderful thing. So nowadays almost everyone has a smartphone. And so I really recommend, you know, downloading one of the star viewing apps in advance. Even though we don't have much cell phone service here in Death Valley, as long as you set it up in advance, the GPS will work.
Matt Lamar:And so it will figure out where you are. It will tell you what's visible in the night sky and you can just point it up there and you can see the various constellations and the planets. You can see some of the Feiner nebulas and galaxies, like the Andromeda Galaxy. So it's all about having the right tools. We also will have rangers inside our visitor center who are always happy to talk about the night skies, talk about what's visible, what planets are most prominent, and we do sell old school planispheres in our bookstore.
Matt Lamar:So you can always grab a planisphere and do it the old fashioned way to figure out what's up there in the night sky. But there's a lot of resources online, you know. This interest in the night skies is so prevalent, that there's plenty of websites that are starting to fill those those voids.
Joey Liberatore:Is there any restrictions for photographers when they come to the park looking to photograph, the night sky?
Matt Lamar:It's a great question. Astrophotography is definitely a growing field. People are really interested in getting shots of the Milky Way or even deep space objects and you're more than welcome to do that here in the park. The park is open 247. We just ask you to be very respectful of the people around you.
Matt Lamar:Right now a lot of people like to do light painting. So they'll like to light up objects and then do astrophotography. And that can really impact the experience of all the other people around you. And so we ask you to minimize those impacts and try and be respectful of the other people who are out there, and maybe this will be their only opportunity to experience the Milky Way, to see some of these objects, to be in a dark sky place. And so we want people to be cognizant of that.
Joey Liberatore:Because of the heat, a lot of the animals here also only come out at night. So does light painting also affect the animals and what they're trying to accomplish when they do come out? Absolutely.
Matt Lamar:Particularly insects are obviously drawing the lights. I think we all know that, and they're having some real impacts on some of those species. And so we have, like, species in the park, like the yucca moth, which have a symbiotic relationship with Joshua trees that are so important, to the ecosystem here. And yet when you have more light pollution, they can be severely impacted by that. There's actually a interesting story.
Matt Lamar:2019, there was a grasshopper swarm in Las Vegas. Millions upon millions of grasshoppers swarmed into the city itself all over the strip, and what scientists have figured out is they were drawn there because of the lights. The lights drew them to that area and then, you know, most of them did perish obviously in the city itself. So our lighting does have real impacts on the species and, you know, when you're anywhere you should be cognizant of
Joey Liberatore:it, but particularly when you're in a national park. There's obviously researchers and scientists that come here all the time for geology and wildlife. Is is the same for the dark skies here?
Matt Lamar:You know, I would say a little bit less so. So planetary science is a huge part. We talked a little bit about that, in the geology section. You know, we aren't analog for other worlds. So NASA and SETI and Caltech have all done research here in the park comparing us to Mars and Enceladus and Europa and these other worlds out there.
Matt Lamar:When it comes to astronomy, we don't have an observatory here in the park. It's a little challenging in National Park because we are such a wilderness area to build a structure like that, but there are observatories in the area. Caltech manages one over in the Owens Valley where they do radio astronomy. So this region is very good. Less astronomy research though in the park itself, and that's just because of the logistics of being a national park.
Joey Liberatore:What about the difference between a red light headlamp and, you know, your your typical white light lamp?
Matt Lamar:Yes. So one of the great tips when you come out here to stargaze is to minimize white lights. The second you look at a white light, you activate cones in your eyes. So our vision has cones and they have rods. Cones give us kind of that color vision, the daytime vision.
Matt Lamar:Rods give us our night vision. And that's what you're gonna need to have a good stargazing experience. And so when you look at those white lights, it activates those cones, it diminishes the impacts of the rods, and it kind of resets your eyes. Even a quick glance could take you 15, 20, 30 minutes for your eyes to adjust again. When you use red lights, it's on that spectrum of light where it's less likely to activate the cup.
Matt Lamar:So a dim ish red light will go a long way in preserving your night vision. Allow you to go out there, still identify those tripping hazards, while still preserving that night vision for a great start gazing experience.
Joey Liberatore:And it also significantly helps animals, correct? It does. Yeah.
Matt Lamar:Red lights do help. Ideally though, you wanna have a narrow spectrum like LAD. You wanna have something that really falls into a spectrum of light that isn't discernible for animals. So red lights, it really depends. There's a lot of nuance there.
Matt Lamar:There's a lot of literature that's been written about the impact of red lights. Overall, a much better experience even for wildlife, but there are some red lights which can still draw insects and other animals.
Joey Liberatore:You talked earlier in the episode about areas where you might get some glow from Vegas versus other areas that are truly, extremely dark. What are some of those spots that are best for stargazing? So if you look at a map of Death Valley and you look at
Matt Lamar:the light pollution map, you'll see the further north you go the darker it gets. So Ubehebe Crater is definitely on the darker end of the spectrum. That's about as far north as you can get on a paved road. Now if you go north of there, it gets even better. But unfortunately those areas are very remote.
Matt Lamar:Now you're traveling on dirt roads for sometimes 30 or 40 miles to get to places like the Eureka Valley which is one of the best stargazing places in certainly in the country. But to get there you have to have a game plan. You have to have the right vehicle, good tires, extra water, extra food. But if you go up there, you will surely see a night sky that, is pretty much void of light pollution where you can connect with the night sky like people have for those 1000 of years.
Joey Liberatore:If you go out that far though, the reality is especially if you're camping or staying somewhere within the park, you have to come back at some point. What are some of the risks that you pose at night driving in a dark sky like that? What are some of the steps that travelers can take, with their vehicle and, everything else that they're doing to make sure that they keep themselves safe and also the park and, you know, the animals that come out at night?
Matt Lamar:Yeah. Biggest one as always is follow the speed limit. When you're on dirt roads here, you're only gonna be going 25, 30 miles per hour. You don't wanna be flying down those dirt roads because you're more likely to both damage your vehicle, but also to hit wildlife that potentially be drawn to you or be flushed out by your car moving along those areas. It's always good when you're traveling the backcountry to have a plan.
Matt Lamar:Like, you need to tell people where you're gonna be. When you're hours potentially from the nearest gas station or even from the nearest paved road, if you get stuck out there, there might not be someone coming for for quite a while. And And so making sure someone knows where you're gonna be, what your plan is, is so so valuable, to making sure that you have a safe and enjoyable experience.
Joey Liberatore:This might be a little bit more of an off the wall question, but is there any studies or research within the park of animals that are connected to the dark sky in terms of taking an interest in the night sky and the cosmos here? No. That's
Matt Lamar:not a and that's a great question. Research in the park, not so much. There has been some in the area of the impacts of, like, the moon on kangaroo rats and, their activity during, like, full moons versus new moons. So they seem very aware of the differences and how bright it gets under 1, how dark it is at other times. But there has been a lot of research about that connection with animals in the night sky.
Matt Lamar:And again going back to to birds, we know that there are birds that navigate using the night sky. They use the north star. And that research has has been done, that they rely on the night sky and the visibility of the night sky to migrate from place to place. Same with dung beetles. So there's quite a few species that, you know, have evolved just like us underneath the night sky.
Matt Lamar:They've adapted with the night sky, and they rely on it.
Joey Liberatore:So in areas where there is light pollution do you take away the the north star from insects or some birds? It disorients them I would assume significantly. Absolutely.
Matt Lamar:Yeah. It definitely can. I believe it was indigo buttonings where they did the research on, which is a type of bird, and I'd encourage anyone to to look into that a little bit because it is fascinating how they came to this conclusion, what controls they put in place, and how they realized, yeah, that the night sky matters.
Joey Liberatore:Do you have any final thoughts on what can create the best experience for a visitor who's, you know, hoping to come here and see the night sky or even hoping to come here and see a, you know, a moon that's shining bright.
Matt Lamar:So the best thing is to look at the weather in advance if you can, which I understand isn't possible for everyone. But figuring out is it gonna be cloudy? Is it not? Looking at that moon face so you get the experience that you're looking for. And then identifying where you want to stargaze.
Matt Lamar:We have so many great stargazing locations in the park. And the truth is you're gonna have a good experience at almost any of them. The key is you need to get away from the resorts which do still have lights even though many of the fixtures have been improved to be night sky compliant. You just don't want any white lights around you. You also want to get away from the roadways because every time you look at headlights passing by, that's gonna impact your night vision.
Matt Lamar:So if you get away from those two things and you find an area out with a clear view of the night sky, not right next to the mountains but out in the middle of the valley, you're gonna have a worthwhile experience.
Joey Liberatore:With the Dark Sky Association rating, the park is a gold tier. What goes into that process, for the association to to rate a park?
Matt Lamar:Yes. It's quite the process. The International Dark Sky Association, or now they go by Dark Skies International, is kind of the premier light pollution organization. And so they don't just hand out those, you know, certifications. They don't certify you on a whim.
Matt Lamar:You have to go through a process. And so you have to go through your entire park and you have to look at every outdoor light that you have and see, does it meet these check marks? Is it night sky comply? Is it enhancing the night sky experience, or is it detracting from the night sky experience? So here at Death Valley, we had over 800 lights, that we had to inventory.
Matt Lamar:And many of them, we had to either remove entirely or at least retrofit them to be more night sky compliant. Besides looking at those lights, you also agree to give night sky programs. And so every year, we have to educate the public about the night sky and about those real impacts of light pollution that we have. And then, obviously, the last thing you need to get this certification is you need to have dark skies. And us being one of the largest wilderness areas in the United States, so far from a lot of the major cities, we do have that experience in
Joey Liberatore:or have that in abundance. The lights outside of the Furnace Creek Visitor Center are really interesting at night. The, the amber, that they emit and they don't travel very high into the to the sky it seems. It's really unique to look at at night.
Matt Lamar:Yes. The key is really shielding lights, pointing them only where they're needed. So that's downing, like, downward where people are walking and people are traveling. And then light color does matter a lot. And so outside our visitor center, we have these narrow spectrum LED lights, which I talked about earlier.
Matt Lamar:And so those aren't just pleasant for us to look out while preserving our night vision, but they're also really good, when it comes to wildlife and having minimal impacts on the plants and particularly animals here in the area. So we had to retrofit all the lights here to make sure that we were compliant, and we had to work with our partners because there are private property within the park, both the Timbisha Shoshone and the resort next door. And so we continue to work with them, to improve their riding because, you know, it impacts all of us and thankfully they've been very on board with understanding.
Joey Liberatore:Yeah. You thanks for bringing up the Tamisha Shoney. They've lived in the park for since time immemorial, and they've seen the night sky evolve within the park since time immemorial. Have you has the park worked with them in terms of preserving the night sky then? Absolutely.
Matt Lamar:The tribe has been very on board with preserving the night sky. They've changed a lot of their lighting within the park as well to to meet those night sky compliant standard compliance standards. So I don't wanna speak certainly for them, but they've been a great partner during this process.
Joey Liberatore:Awesome. Well, Matt, thanks so much. This has been a blast. And Yeah. I know we did a couple of shows together, but Death Valley really is quite the incredible park and has such a variety of different things from a geology standpoint.
Joey Liberatore:And then obviously, the the night sky is almost like the cherry on top to everything else that exists within here in the park, but it's it's really a beautiful place. Can you agree more?
Matt Lamar:Thanks for coming out. Appreciate it.
Joey Liberatore:Thanks for checking out this edition of the Safe Travels podcast. I really hope you enjoyed it. Matt is so knowledgeable and passionate about Death Valley. It's such a great joy to get to listen to him speak about it. And if you have the opportunity to come to Death Valley to enjoy the dark skies, I highly recommend it.
Joey Liberatore:I got to experience my first Milky Way last night. It was really amazing. So if you like this type of content make sure to like, comment, and subscribe as it really does help out our channel. And until next time, safe travels.