Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Get a seat at the table and build the design career you want. This podcast is for designers looking to break in, level up, and take control of their careers—whether you're freelancing, climbing the corporate ladder, or just trying to get noticed. Every two weeks, we dive into career fundamentals, design best practices, and the hottest topics in the design community.
I'm curious, like, how do you like, there there may be a case where there's a question that you don't know the answer to. You know a 100 things. They ask you a 101. What is the tactic to to address a question that you you you plain don't know the answer to?
Nick:I have a set of of of tricky things to that you can try. Okay. Tell me. Well, the the the safe thing is We're live. We're officially live.
Nick:Exactly. I mean, this is just an experiment.
Tyler:So, Nick, I know you're you do a lot of mentoring for a lot of designers, junior designers, and we've talked a lot about, like, how do you craft a perfect portfolio website. But then the next step is obviously, like, once you've kind of are in that funnel, and you're talking to hiring managers, there's this step where you have to kinda present it in front of a crowd. Curious, like, what you're what you're telling your mentees. What what are some strategies when in that presentation flow?
Nick:Well, there are many. But based on the people I work with, the thing I want to start this talk with is to mention that you should say less, basically, or less in the beginning. What I noticed within myself, but also in other designers, is there it's it's kinda scary presenting your work to strangers. Right? So you want to do good.
Nick:You want to do well. And because of it, you start talking faster, making silly mistakes, and then you you notice and then you want to correct yourself. So you're talking way too much. Your audience gets distracted, doesn't pay any attention anymore, and it becomes just a big word vomit. So and we can talk about specifics in just a bit, but I would really break it up into pieces that then get a few words in.
Nick:So say less right away and say more later, I think, is the biggest advice that I have.
Tyler:That's fair. Yeah. Because I've I've I've gotten nervous plenty of time. And then what inevitably happens is you start speaking faster, and then then your your ten minute presentation turns into two minutes, which leaves a lot of room for questions.
Nick:Yeah. Well, I actually, I think it's the other way around. Your your ten minute presentation turns into thirty minutes of talking points crammed into ten minutes of time. Mhmm. Because you keep talking.
Nick:You you you want to feel the awkward silence that happens when you stop talking, then you just keep going.
Tyler:Yeah. Like, for me, like, if I'm ever in the case where I'm just talking the entire time, like, I like to deploy strategy where, like, it's a conversation. Yeah. So, like, there's there's typically, like, two strategies. Like, let me present and then ask questions later.
Tyler:I'm more of the fan of interrupt me at any time, and I'll I'll Mhmm. I'll answer any question that's not clear, or else you're just gonna be I'll you'll you might lose or I think you might lose the audience if you're just going on your word salad, and they have to remember the question that they had at minute two, minute four, minute six, minute eight.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that I think so too. I think I noticed within myself, like, one thing that I've started to to do recently is to do, like, role play interviews. You know?
Nick:So Okay. When I have when I work with with a designer, we decide to do x amount of meetings per month, like, between two and four. So every two weeks or every every week something. And then we decide, like, okay. In the second meeting of the month, we are going to do a job interview.
Nick:This is the job description. Imagine that you've been invited to join. And then the job description is more or less suited to the thing that they want to do. It's not you know, I'm not going to do a graphic design interview for a product designer, for example. So Yeah.
Nick:It's as real as it gets, and then I just let them join during that meeting, and they know, like, okay, when we start when when you when you join, you know, it's very awkward at first, but I'm just going to introduce myself to you like you like like I've never met you before. I'm transcribing in the background, you know, the conversation, and then we will look at it again the next meeting. So it's very useful that way. And what I noticed then is that they you know, I noticed within myself, I I even got distracted. Then I noticed like, oh, wait.
Nick:I'm distracted. It means that they're talking too long. Mhmm. You know? And then we talked about that's how to do that better.
Nick:Yeah. So say less.
Tyler:Is there is there, like, a a strategy in terms of, like, how you structure that presentation? So, like, you can talk about the project, but is there a typical, like, structure that you suggest people kinda follow? Is it, like Mhmm. Talking about the results that they're getting at the end, or is you talking about the the design process? Like like, what is the the cocktail that makes, like, a pretty solid presentation?
Nick:I think we can divide it into a few steps. First big divide is before the meeting and during the meeting. So before the meeting, once you know that you've been invited to do a presentation, it's really important to think about or to read back the job opening. What type of design or designer are they looking for? What type of work are they going to expect you to do?
Nick:And what type of company are they? So my biggest mistake that I where I lost projects, I came second, sadly. So I did I did basically all the work, but no results. That's basically coming second in a in a freelance world. They weren't convinced that I had enough experience in product, which was very silly because it's basically all I do.
Nick:So meaning Right. I didn't present myself well enough in that area. So that's what you have to do before your job interview. You know? Become fairly certain that you know what they're going to ask you, and then look at your portfolio and make sure you have, like, one or two relevant projects really top of mind.
Nick:You know? Study like you're going to do an exam. Make sure that you can talk about it. So that's before. And during, it depends a bit on how they structure it.
Nick:What I see often is they ask you, have you ever done, you know, fill in the blank? And then if you're lucky, they are asking you about the thing that you prepared. So that's the best case scenario. If they ask you that, you're you're going to share your screen if it's a virtual meeting, and, you're going to say, like, okay. I have project a, b, and c.
Nick:A is about financial sector employee facing dashboard. B is government work. We did this and this and that because of new regulations, and then c is something else. You ask them, is there any any winner there, anything you want to see more of? You know?
Nick:So you put the ball back in their court. So that's your first block instead of just rambling about project a while not knowing that project c might have been way better for them. So let them choose. It gives them a sense of control, and it's more of a conversation already. So that's part two.
Tyler:I like that one. I do a similar thing. It's like pick your poison, and they just it's like Yeah. You're basically curating your presentation your presentation to, like, what they're looking for. Yes.
Tyler:And you're probably familiar with all the all, like, the three or four projects that you have on your Rolodex, so you're good to have it either way.
Nick:Yeah. It it fun thing is that you give them a sense of control. Like, I made I made this decision. I'm going to listen to the one I want to know more about. But you are also in control because you limited the options to your favorites or your best or your most relevant projects, so everyone's happy.
Nick:The second thing is let's assume that you you know 100 things about your project, and let's also assume that people will ask you questions regardless of how long your story is. If you are going to tell all 100 things and you know they will ask questions, they are going to ask you the one hundred and first thing. But you only know a 100. So Mhmm. Then you're stuck.
Nick:You have to ramble or, you know, figure something out on the spot. It's way better to only tell them 30 things because then it's way more likely that they're going to ask you something of the remaining 70 that you already know and you have a good answer prepared. And I say a 100 things, but it's, you know, probably, like, 12. You know? You Right.
Nick:How much can you say about a project? But just to make it understandable, don't give away everything. You know? Keep keep a few cards close to your chest, and then when they ask about it, you have a great answer. So I think that's very important.
Nick:And, yeah, so keep that part short also. You know, give the situation, the challenge, what you did, and then the results, and then ask them if they want to know more about a certain part of that summary.
Tyler:I'm curious, like, one specific thing that I I keep debating is whether you should include the result at the beginning or at the end. It's whether, like, you want the big, if you wanna wow them at the beginning or tease them in the end, like, what are the what is the result? I've something I've been debating for a while. Curious what are your thoughts on where to place that ta da moment.
Nick:I think I would tease it in that first selection round. You know, the a b c that I mentioned, you know, you can say something like and then for project a, we were able to to increase the conversion rate a lot. Nice. You know? But don't but don't say, like, 20% or something, you know, in the fur like, don't make it too specific.
Nick:Like, make it specific enough that it's real, but also fake enough that they want to know more.
Tyler:Okay. So you tease, like, their we did some kind of metric, but, like, I'll tell you more about it later kind of thing. Okay. Nice. Yeah.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Because then because I keep thinking about the work I did for a large Dutch bank where we did a lot of like, everything was data. But then for another project, I had no data, but it it was all gut feeling, not because there wasn't any data, but more because of the type of work. It was really about the European Union has this new set of regulations coming into power in twenty something, you know, start of a year.
Nick:We have two years left to figure out what that means for our current set of applications. You know? So, yeah, at in the beginning, we weren't following regulations, and in the end, we were. You know? And but it was more about guiding them, facilitating them to figure out what they should do.
Nick:You You know, it's hard to put that into numbers. So that's also more challenging to tease. Yeah. What do you think? Like, you're debating it?
Nick:Like, did did you figure it out for yourself?
Tyler:I've done it two ways. I've only got feedback on having it up front. I was like I got feedbacks. Hey. You should have this at the end.
Tyler:I'm like, okay. Interesting. I had all the results front loaded. Like, here's this is the project. Here's all the KPIs.
Tyler:This is this is how success we increased the conversion. We doubled this or whatever the metric was. And then it's like, then my narrative was, now this is how we got there. And then I go into, like, the story.
Nick:Yeah. So I think
Tyler:I I think I like your approach where it's Mhmm. A bit hybrid. So it's here's what it's here's the challenge. High level, here's what we touched in terms of KPI, and then this is the work that was done. And then, again, the big ta da.
Tyler:It's, like, just expanding upon, like, the results that you teased at the beginning, which is which I think is, like, a good balance.
Nick:I think with with what you're just saying, like, the the and this is how we did it, is the natural cutoff point because you want them to go like, oh, interesting. How did you do that? Tell me more. Yeah.
Tyler:You know? Because the
Nick:worst thing that you the the the worst thing for you to end up at is where they are like, okay. I know enough. Where they will just say, okay. And then they are like they feel forced, like, I have to ask a question, but I actually know everything. Let me just make up a shitty question because they feel like they have to.
Nick:So, yeah, best thing for you to do is to get to a point where they want to know more.
Tyler:Yeah. Like, to your point, like, the I know a 100 things, it's like it's how do you it's how do you sparingly keep their attention and give enough information to keep the their their attention retained. It's like
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:Throughout throughout the whole, whatever, ten minute spiel.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's it's it feels like that old school case study structure of STAR, you know, situation, task, activity, result. You know?
Nick:You can write five paragraphs or more per letter, but you can also write all four in one sentence per letter and get that gives you a one paragraph of four sentences. You know, you can go both ways. So four times five or just one. I would always go for one in the beginning. You know, your my portfolio, my Dutch one, it has two or three paragraphs per case study, and the rest is visuals.
Nick:It is written in a way that, you know, it it's it shows results, but lots of people would just send me an email like, hey. You you did this and this over there. It really spoke to me. How did you do that thing over there?
Tyler:You know, it's That's good signal.
Nick:Yeah. Yeah. So and that that takes a lot lot of time to write it, you know, because it's been redone, like, 10 times at least. And the first version was really crappy. It's too long or too short, and people were like, okay.
Nick:You know, whatever. You know? So it's a lot of trial and error also. So I know it's it's easy for us to say here in this recording studio, like, yeah, just do this, you know, but it's challenging.
Tyler:That's interesting. I I haven't thought like, are you considering the whole journey when you're like, if we're just talking about portfolios in general, like, where it lives and where it's getting presented, like, are you are you thinking about, like, how it should be presented at the portfolio and then how you're gonna and how it's gonna be kind of how that context is gonna be brought over to the presentation? So, like, are you tee basically, to your example, I'm teasing enough in the portfolio so that I have enough left to kind of expand upon during the actual presentation itself. So, like, this the this there's a story arc there that that follows.
Nick:Yeah. I I think I think one of the the best, but also oldest pieces of advice that I've had is that you you should never present something that people have read before. You know? So you know? And that's that's, of course, in theory.
Nick:Like, in practice, there's also always some overlap, of course, but that's why my portfolio case studies are as short as they are. You know, it's it's more or less the the intro that I give someone. Like, hey. Do you want a, or c? You know, it's the a, the b, and the c, what I tell them at the moment, that's more or less what's already on the portfolio website.
Nick:Right. And I can get away with it because the recruiter checks the website. They don't know because they're not not a designer. Right. They think, oh, this guy fits the list that I have in front of me.
Nick:Let's forward this person's contact info, or let's call this person, and then if that goes well, let's forward this person as a candidate to the guy that's actually going to interview me. So they probably haven't seen the portfolio in full. You know? There's a chance they have, but an equal chance that they haven't. So, yeah, I can get away with that.
Nick:So long answer short, don't present anything that you have that people could have read before. Before we continue, if you're feeling stuck in your design career or if you feel like you're doing solid work while no one really notices, we've got a bunch of extra stuff on our website.
Tyler:We're building a community for product designers to actually learn, grow, and get hired, not just scroll and collect more inspiration.
Nick:There's also articles, checklists, and courses.
Tyler:All based on real world experience from both of us. No fluff, just what actually works.
Nick:Check out designtablepodcast.com. The link is in the description.
Tyler:Then, like, I'm curious, like, how do you like, there there may be a case where there's a question that you don't know the answer to. Like, you know a 100 things. They ask you a 101. What is the tactic to to address a question that you plain don't know the answer to?
Nick:I have a set of of of tricky things to that you can try. Okay. Tell me. Well, the the the safe thing is that so that's not one of the tricky things, but one of the safe things is that you should be honest. Don't try and and figure it out on the spot with a strange nervous sentence that doesn't make any sense.
Nick:Just like, well, I I don't know. It it didn't come up. It's not part of the scope. You know, has some sort of excuse, but the the ballsiest thing that I did, it was at some point was, I don't know. What do you think?
Nick:Which was very Fair effect. Yeah. Yeah. The so that's a bit of the arrogant way. I don't really know what happened in the end if that had an impact because it's it's been a while.
Nick:But I think the the safe or the the friendlier version of that is, I don't know, but let's figure it out together. You know? It it shows your critical thinking. It almost turns it into some sort of whiteboard challenge.
Tyler:You know? That's a nice one.
Nick:Because, you know, it's it's a lot of fun to just have the discussion there because then they you can already feel if there's a click because you have to collaborate and brainstorm with those people anyway if you get the job. So just you might test the waters a little bit to see if it feels good or not, and you show them how you work. So that's win win, I think.
Tyler:That's a good one because you're also, like, narrowing down into why they asked the question in the first place. I think in most questions, it's not really the answer. It's just like they're trying to pinpoint something trying to answer Yeah. A a fit question there.
Nick:Yes. Talking about questions like that, two people, you know, hire people who have the power to hire someone or to say yes or no about a potential hire have told have told me, like, the strange tactics that I have. Like, one person told me, like I always ask them, tell me a joke, which I think is a bit mean, actually, to put people on the spot that way. But the second one I talked about recently with one of my clients, I think it's my my favorite question. They ask someone, how many chickens do you think there are in the world?
Nick:And then, like, is that is that a famous trick or did did the guy make that up, do you think? Or is that something a lot of people do? Like, do you know where I'm going with this?
Tyler:No. I've never heard this one.
Nick:Okay. So, like, he checks the response of the people, and he does it doesn't matter if it's correct. Like, the worst thing you could do for him is to say, well, I don't know, 10,000,000,000. You know? Because there's no way to know.
Nick:He wants to see if you think about it or not. Like, he want like, he says, like, out of 20 people, 19 people just give me a number, but there's one person who's you can see he's thinking and he's figuring things out and he's asking a question back and so you can like, he's interested in in the puzzle. And then he even told me that there was one guy who sent him a a message later, like, after the interview. Like, hey. I want to I I spoke to to my wife about it, and I want to change my answer.
Nick:I actually think it's this. And he was really looking for the the mindset of of let's work it out. Let's think this through. You know? But when when you're nervous during the interview, you just want to give the good answer.
Tyler:Of course.
Nick:And then you're like, 10,000,010, 10,000,000,000, 12. I don't know. Something. You just want to appear like someone who knows things, and it's super challenging to figure out what crazy plans are behind the question. And the only thing you can do is just to take a deep breath and sit back and and don't shoot the answers right away.
Nick:So, yeah, that's my story on on the fit questions.
Tyler:I'm so curious what your answer would be to how many check ins are there in the world.
Nick:Well, I don't know how many check ins there are in the world. I would you know, while talking, would probably go on my second screen and start to look things up and calculating and and figuring out how many chickens to does an average person eat on a year, yearly basis. I'm sure there's data on it. How many people are there in the world and and, you know, people eat more because of culture or less because of culture perhaps Yeah. Or availability.
Nick:And so I would just yeah. But I'm also a bit biased because I know what that guy was looking for.
Tyler:Fair. Fair. Fair enough.
Nick:So, yeah, I would probably say nothing and then have a a dumb answer because I'm nervous. That's what I would probably have done. So I'm glad he didn't ask me while he was interviewing me. I think he came up with that later.
Tyler:It's okay to fail too. I think one thing I might add there is or something that I do that I think answers a question that always comes up, and so I I pre answer is I always include what went wrong during a project. So it's like By default
Nick:or when they ask?
Tyler:By it's part of my slide deck. Here's what went wrong, and then well, it's it's a two parter. So it's like, here is we had a solution. It failed or whatever the thing that went wrong, and then this is how we fixed it. And I think it answers that question that they have.
Tyler:It's like, is this purse like, nothing goes the happy path always. So, like, there's an issue that happens. It's just like Yeah. Can you show us that you're able to resolve a situation that went not as expected?
Nick:Yeah. So when you say something went wrong, is that more about, like, we thought it was solution a. We build it. We test it. Turns out not an improvement, or is it more, like, soft skill wise, like, I forgot to email this person at some point?
Tyler:It could be both. I I generally include, like, a failed launch of a feature. So I redesigned feature x. We launched it. We got some either we watched the analytics or, in most cases, like, ran user session.
Tyler:They told us that, like, we're not gonna use it. We designed the wrong thing back to the drawing board because we came up with solution b.
Nick:Right. Okay. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a good thing to do, you know, to to be honest and transparent there.
Nick:It also shows your way of working. And that's probably something I would talk about during the that second part of the interview after you've asked after you've asked them the a b c and then after you've presented the more expanded summary. You know? I wouldn't lead with it because that's probably part of the stuff that people say too much of in the beginning, you know, in their word spaghetti.
Tyler:Yeah. I like to splice it in just in the middle of, like, a success story. It's like, oh, we did this, we did this, and then this is my process, and then we hit this roadblock. And it's part of it's just like a part of, like, a story arc. Like, when you're telling a kid's story, there's always some some villain moment that comes into the to the fray, and it's about, like, how the how the protagonist overcame that villain and what was the solution.
Tyler:And then and then it dives into, oh, and here's the results. Here here are the KPIs. Here's how awesome I am.
Nick:The 12 steps of the hero's journey. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Wondering what the supernatural aid is.
Nick:Like, who's the Yoda in your story? It's Yeah. Yeah. I I had Claude in mind when I when I asked you that. So we both have the AI virus, I think.
Nick:You mentioned slides or presentation or deck or something, I think you said.
Tyler:Yes.
Nick:So when you do a portfolio presentation, does that mean you have some sort of PowerPoint or PowerPoint like thing ready?
Tyler:Yeah. I have either depends on what they're asking, but usually either PowerPoint presentation or a PowerPoint because I hate PowerPoint. But I use Google Slides or I'll use Sigma Slides depending on on the situation. But I'll also have that open and then on another tab, the Sigma file for each one of the projects in case I have to kind of jump into it.
Nick:Right. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. I do you think that's like, having a a slide deck ready, is that an absolute must have?
Tyler:For me, it is. Because you wanna tell portfolio presentations are all about storytelling and tell a proper story, you need to have chapters. And the best way for me to structure that, like, personally, is to have a slide deck ready. So it's like
Nick:Yeah.
Tyler:I'm guiding you through. It's just a visual aid to keep their attention while I'm speaking. Right. Yeah. So it's like something
Nick:Yeah. To
Tyler:It's something to reference. Like, as I'm talking about a point, I have something visual to back it up. And it's like it's not like there's, like, copy blasted across the slide deck. It's just like eyebrow title, title, maybe some bullet points, and then an image to go along with it if it's necessary. So, like Yeah.
Tyler:There was a process. Maybe I'll do a diagram of, like, step one, two, three. Like, I'll have something visual to anchor back to, like, my my talk track.
Nick:Right. Yeah. That makes sense. Otherwise, you're just a talking head, lots of senses, and they're like, yeah. Yeah.
Nick:I don't know what what where to look, and they're just going to be distracted.
Tyler:Yeah. There's and there's, like, a whole strategy around, like, doing slide decks. It's like everything has to be minimal. It's like everything is an an aid to tell to tell the story that you're telling.
Nick:Yeah. That makes sense. I like, one trick that I do, and it it's more about I think it's more useful for freelancers. You should tell me if you think it's useful for in house as well. If if I know an interview is coming up, like, the date is set, I create a custom FigJam board.
Nick:Large title in the middle, company name plus Nick. Sometimes equals, you know, some sort of emoji that makes sense. Like, I remember one company had a ghost mascot. So it was name of company plus Nick equals a ghost emoji and then the flex emoji. You know, something something clever.
Nick:One paragraph introduction, link to a Loom recording, and then just visuals of things that I think are relevant for that company. And then I send them an email like, hey. Thanks for including me. And I put together a few things that I think is very useful for you. Here's me talking about it for two minutes, you know, just as a way to prep the meeting.
Nick:And it really does wonders for freelancing work because freelancing interviews are more about, hey. Can you do this thing that I need? Can you do it on time and within budget? Yes. Okay.
Nick:Go. Yeah. You know, it's less about culture fit. So that's why I'm not sure if it's a thing that's useful for in house interviews. Curious to hear what you think.
Tyler:I think it's it's being very proactive. So this is something you send, like, before, like, a session. It's like before a meeting. It's like
Nick:Yeah. You get the you get the invite through the meeting, and you can see already who's invited. So you have the email addresses, and then you can basically just reply or send a new email, and then you're like, hey. You know? Thanks.
Nick:Here's what I think. Take a look.
Tyler:That's a really good shot. It really communicates, like, to me if I got that. Like, this person works. This person is not just sitting around waiting for things to be given. He's Yeah.
Tyler:Proactive and active, and it's an additional signal of how it might be to work with Nick.
Nick:I I don't bind that that stuff because I I see sometimes people share screenshots of the recruitment process at the company, and then you see something like, hey. Make a quick recording of yourself or how you present something. Mhmm. And then the whole comment section is full of people saying, like, well, you should just name and shame this company and them and all sorts of of crazy things, and this is terrible. And who do you who do they think we are?
Nick:Blah blah blah. Then I'm like, well, okay. I'll just make a quick Loom recording. I mean, that's fine. And they're probably doing that on purpose to weed out the people who get angry about it and to have only a few people who are committed.
Nick:So I don't mind it at all. I got a lot of downvotes, though.
Tyler:That's fair. Yeah. It's like it's and also it's like it's also a signal that it's just not that's not not the company for you. You don't have to shame them on their whatever their process is. It's just like a Yeah.
Tyler:It's a it's a bidirectional signal. Like, they're filtering, and then that's also a signal for you. Like, maybe I'll filter this company out because I don't like that process.
Nick:Yeah. I mean, yeah. There's no good or or bad here. Like, to me, it feels easy because I do so many projects across time zones where it just makes sense to include a loom so people can watch in their own time and then have a meeting later. You know?
Nick:So I'm used to looming, if that's even Let's just turn it into a fur up in this meeting. I'm used to looming.
Tyler:Well, you're stacking your Nick quotes of the of the week, so I'll be I'll be using that this week. I'd be looming.
Nick:Looming. Looming in the shadows. Yeah. So so that's what I think. You know, I I really wanted this episode to be, like, super specific.
Nick:You know? I have the tips for each stage of the the interview process before and then during divided into, like, two or three main moments because I really think people need to have that type of structure because many people struggle with the with the design portfolio presentation.
Tyler:Yeah. I think presenting is, like, a core skill that designers should have. That's just a a it's why it's done that way. It's like, let me see this person present. It's it's one part.
Tyler:Let me see what how you work through challenges and what's like, what are the projects that you've seen? But it's also, like, a mirror into, like, how this person is gonna be presenting the work that Yeah. Will live inside the company that that they'll be working for or they'll be joining.
Nick:Yeah. True. And perhaps most important thing is what you just said there in the end. Like, it's it's two way street. Like, they are checking if you are a fit for them, but you are also checking if they are a fit for you.
Nick:Always. If don't like it. Yeah. I mean, I know people are desperate, like, 100 applications. One interview, so I must accept this one.
Nick:But if you have stomach pain just going into the meeting and after the meeting, it's probably a sign that it's probably better to do another hundreds than to accept the thing that makes you sick.
Tyler:Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're also be stuck in a you wanna enjoy the work that you're doing.
Tyler:So it's Yeah. Again, to double down that point, it's it's a filter on both ways.
Nick:Yeah. I think so. Alright. Well, that's it, I think.
Tyler:Yep. Till next time.
Nick:Till next time.
Tyler:Alright. That's another episode in the bag.
Nick:Yeah. Great episode. By the way, if you're stuck second guessing your work or trying to figure out your next move, drop a question in the comments or leave a review. We might actually feature you in one of our future episodes.
Tyler:And if you got any value from this episode, hit subscribe wherever you're listening. It helps more than you think.
Nick:You can can find everything else, resources, articles, and more at designtablepodcast.com.
Tyler:Thanks for being here.
Nick:See you next time.