Ep. 4 - Colorism

The idea that people of the same race can be seen as more or less than attractive, intelligent, qualified, sensitive, based on the lightness or darkness of their skin is colorism. As we fight the generational curses of white supremacy, we must acknowledge colorism within our own communities. I speak with Aaryn Lewis and Breanna Green, two black women, about their experiences with Colorism.

Show Notes

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What is You Gon Listen?

The Minority Serving Institution Student Council (MSISC) at the University of Nevada, Las Vegas along with KUNV Radio are proud to present 'You Gon Listen', a twelve part podcast that aims to shine light on the issues and experiences that minority students and staff face at UNLV. The purpose of this series is to hear and learn directly from one another. We hope to create a dialogue about social issues and current events that shape our daily lives in order to make UNLV a better and more inclusive place.

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Welcome to You Gone Listen at 91.5 KUNV. I'm your host, Karen Jean Charles, and I'm here with my two guests, Aaron Lewis and Brianna Green. And we're talking about colorism today. So some context about colorism. The idea that people of the same race can be seen as more or less pretty, smart, qualified, sensitive, better than the other based on the lightness of their skin is rooted in racism and colonization. European colonizers forced the idea that lighter skin was better because of white supremacy and divide and conquer tactics that changed the world's perception of our skin for generations. Colorism is evident in minorities representation on screen, in books, and in and art as industries always prefer to cast lighter skin people of color. It causes self-hatred of our own beautiful skin tones in every community that European colonizers touched, including Black, Latino, Hispanic, Asian, and South Asian countries. It's not enough to claim to be colorblind or to simply say, that's not me and forget about it. We need to have this conversation. So thank you for coming on the podcast. Do you want to introduce yourself? Say, you know, what your name is, what school you go to, stuff like that. Okay, I can go first. I'm Erin. I am, I guess I go to school in Towson, so that's far away from where you guys are, but yeah, that's just a little about me. What's your major? I am an early childhood education major with a mass communications minor. Okay, distinguished. Bri? Hi you guys, my name is Brianna but you guys can call me Bri. I go to Broward College, it's all the way in South Florida and I'm majoring in psychology. So has colorism affected you or someone you know and how did that experience make you feel? Me specifically, when you had mentioned that it starts to cause people to have like a hatred for themselves because of the color of their skin, I definitely have been there. I think growing up I was like, oh my goodness, like as I the one thing I can remember is growing up in like middle school and high school people like, oh you're light skinned if you don't respond to texts and for me I would be like, oh if I don't respond to texts, then I'm light skinned. And I was like, yeah, I don't want to respond to texts now because I want them to view me as that. And then as I got older and more mature in high school, it was like, that logic makes no sense. I was like, I just naturally don't answer texts. It has nothing to do with the color of my skin. But that was such a desirable thing at the time that I was like, okay, I'm going to have about a thousand texts right now. And if people see that in screenshots, they'll be like, oh, she's such a light skin because she doesn't talk to people. And I was like, no, that's not what that means. Like that's not even, those things don't even correlate. So I definitely have felt that way in that regard. And I've also felt like uncomfortable in my own skin growing up. But now that I'm getting more mature and now that I'm seeing people who look like me in certain areas, I'm starting to become more comfortable and not really care about the whole light skin versus dark skin debate. It's pointless and it doesn't really do much for us.

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How about you, Brie?

0:03:15
Yeah. Yeah, I agree 100%, especially when I was younger, you know, it was always like, I'm darker skin or whatever. And it was always younger, I would always get like, oh, you're so cute for a dark skin girl, you have really nice dark skin girl. I'm just like, okay, like, that's such a backhanded compliment. Like, why can't you just tell me I'm saying? And I, growing up, I did kind of like resent my skin color because my mom is lighter skin and my dad is darker skin. So I always used to grow up and think like, why couldn't I look like my mom? But like now that I'm older, I definitely love the skin that I'm in. I appreciate it way more often. I love that there's more representation in the media and music videos and movies and books and all that, things like that, that represent me and little girls that also look like me or may have thought the way I thought when I was younger as well. Great. And one experience that really pops out at me is how my mom still uses lightening cream today, even no matter how many times I'm telling her, does it really do much for your skin? There's no reason that you would wanna lighten your skin. I think it's really a deep rooted sentiment among our communities because of colonialism, and the idea that white is right, which is, you know, flawed. But I think there's so much that we need to do to reverse that. And I think it might be starting with ourselves, do you think?

0:04:53
100 percent. Absolutely.

0:04:55
I'm 100 percent. So I just wanted to reiterate that you're listening to You Gon' Listen at 91.5 KUNV. I'm Karen Jean-Charles and I'm with my guests, Breanna Nicole Green and Aaron Lewis. We're talking about colorism today. How has the positive negative attitude towards your skin tone changed the way you feel or felt about yourself? Has your self-image improved, stayed the same or, I don't know, overall changed from when you first were introduced to colorism? I feel like definitely when I was younger, I kind of did. I don't want to say hate myself because that's a strong word, but I did wish that I did look like other people. You know, like I said, the people on my mom's side of the family, they're lighter. Like, all my cousins are light-skinned and things like that. And I used to wish to want to look like them or look lighter like my mom, or like I would have a crush on a guy, and I just knew in the back of my head, like, he wouldn't like me because I'm so dark. But I feel like as I got older and I went through high school, I went through, I went to like a, it was a really mixed high school. So we had all types of people in our high school. So I feel like once I hit high school, I really didn't care about my skin tone too much. And I feel like now that I'm older, it's starting to come back, but in like a negative way, not towards me, but towards the, towards the community as a whole. You know what I mean? I'm not saying that like, I'm still getting like, oh, you're still this way, dark skin girl. I don't get that anymore. I'm just saying that I see things in our community where it's like, oh, it's still like conversations like light skin versus dark skin. I'm just like, why are we still talking about this to this day, you know what I mean? For me, I never really, like, I don't know. It was so subtle where I grew up that I never really noticed that it was colorism. Like I never got those like the compliments where it's like you're pretty for like I'm because I'm not necessarily like dark skinned. Like I would like they wouldn't say something like that to me because I like when people look at me then I'm like oh well you're dark skinned because they have a really like weird obsession with how what complexion you have to be to be or consider dark skinned to them and I'm like well for me it's like there's really no in between like you're either I just don't I don't understand. So I never really got those comments. Like, honestly, quite honestly, I never got any comments because I kind of kept to myself. But the one time that I noticed it, and this was later on in high school, once I had started to kind of be more comfortable in my own skin without like anybody's like approval or anything, I, my senior year of high school, I was a mute, like I was always a theater kid. So my senior year of high school, we did Once on this Island. I don't know if anybody knows the background of that musical, but it basically, the colorist divide is alive and well in that musical. And that was really the first time that I kind of noticed, okay, they're even going to cast us in this specific way. And I was like, I don't know if I want to be a part of something like that. Like, it was so weird to see all of the people who would be considered dark skin go out for the one specific role and then everybody else was like, okay, either white or they were like light skin. And I was like, that's very odd. And it was like, it was, that was, was what the, literally the bio for the, like the characters, the character bio said, and I was like, I'm not really sure this is for me. So ultimately I didn't do it, but it was just seeing that kind of made me for a second, like, oh, wow, if I was lighter skin, maybe I would have been able to go out for that role. Maybe I wouldn't be able to get it. And it kind of made me feel like I wasn't like, like I couldn't do it. And I was like, okay, that really has nothing to do with my ability to act or to sing or to dance. It's just because I don't fit that part of the character bio, it makes everything feel bad. And so that's why I just had to remove myself from that situation, because I was like, I'm not going to spend the next three months being upset about the color of my skin, because of something weird that they wanted to do. So that's definitely one of the instances where it was like, it had a negative impact on the way I viewed myself. But then once I pulled myself out of that situation, I realized how truly, like it was really, I don't really know the word for it, but it was very weird. The way that that had an impact on the entire show and everybody in it. And it wasn't just the students who will be considered black, it was had an impact on the kids who were Asian, but they weren't. Like they weren't lighter skin Asians, they were darker skin Asians, it had an impact on everybody. So it was very odd is all I can say. And that's literally the only reason that I didn't do the show. I was like, okay, this is not it for me. I can't put myself in that situation. So that would be the experience that I have. Yeah, I can definitely relate to that. Speaking of how you were talking about the being in a play, but if we're talking about the entertainment industry, have we gone backwards, do you think? Because I remember in a lot of 90s shows, not that I've been alive that long, but I remember that there were a lot of dark skinned women. They had like several hairstyles that you know, you can see yourself on the screen but Now like I mean, I love Zendaya. I love I love them. They're really talented But if we're I mean if we really gonna talk about it, like how we move backwards on one hand I say yes I'm gonna hand I say no and I'm gonna use Spider-Man Homecoming and then Falcon Home as an example. Because- Don't spoil anything. It is very- I'm sorry. But in both of those movies, on a surface level you know that Peter Parker's love interest is a black girl. But when you look at both of those black girls, you have Zendaya and then you have Laura Harrier, both of them are mixed black women. So it's kind of like, okay, did you do it to add a little spice to it? But then like, we wouldn't find out that they were mixed. And then even in the movie, Liz's dad is a white man. So it's just kind of like, okay, I feel like if you're going to make his love interest a person of color, you should have did it like completely, go all the way. Yeah, like go all the way. Like, don't just try to scratch the surface to shake the table. And then boom, it's still a light-skinned person who is mixed and you can see it in the movie and it's like okay well that doesn't really apply to me because I'm not a mixed black person I'm a 100% like both my parents are black like there's no there's no way I really relate to that but on the other hand in Laura's case there are people who are both of their parents are black and they look like her like they are the same complexion as her. And so I was like, okay, that can work. But then you have Zendaya and I don't really know many people who aren't mixed, who are the same complexion as her. And it's like, okay, great, we want her to get the representation that she deserves, because she is still a black person. But, and she said it herself, she knows that there's areas that she just cannot be a part of, because it's not who she is, she hasn't experienced that. And I think it's important that she owns up to that. But I also think it's important that the entertainment industry owns up to that and acknowledges it when they do certain things that they think are like beneficial to our community because I mean that's ultimately what they're trying to do. They're trying to please us and my thing is we don't need you guys to please us, we need you guys to hear us. Right, okay. Going back on what you said about like the 90s sitcom, I really do feel like we did go backwards in a way when it comes to television because growing well I didn't grow up with these shows I just like watch reruns but we had shows like the Fresh Prince we had Martin we had Living Single we had Moesha we had the Parkers you know women of color and just people of color in general were represented you know of like the darker skin or whatever lighter skin medium tone skin whatever they were all represented in the 90s and like Erin said I really do feel like now people are trying to, you know, shake the table by having like a lighter skinned person or a mixed race person in the, in the entertainment business, and it's just like, it's not everybody can relate to that, you know what I mean? But I, one thing I do want to commend, and I know I'm sorry I'm bringing it up, but y'all know this is my movie, but Black Panther, okay? Black Panther, they really came through, you know what I mean? And I feel like that's what people were really waiting for. They wanted to see their representation. They wanted to see, you know, the dark skin, the medium skin, the fair skin, all that. And I feel like they really came through and did what they had to do for the community in that aspect of the, what is it called, what's the word for it, the entertainment side of it. But I really do feel like as a whole, we definitely did take a step backward. Or like how you see in some shows, like how there was like probably an all group of people of color, but now you see that in shows today, there's always like, you know, somebody of a different ethnicity in the friend group. You know what I mean? And about the representation part, like when talking about Black Panther, that was so important to me and my family, even though we come from Haiti, not Africa, but we're still like, that was so crazy to see. Like me and my family went back and saw that, paid for it three times. And I think it surpassed Titanic, which is really crazy, but like representation really matters. And when the entertainment industry, I mean, I don't want to sound like manipulative, but like they can definitely use this to their advantage. I just don't, I think the reason why they don't use it to their advantage is because of racism. I also feel like there's some instances where they don't really know how. Like I know that there's been instances that people talk about on Twitter where they're like okay they added this Black character in it but it feels forced and I that's what I mean when I say I don't want them to please us I want them to hear us. My thing is if you are putting somebody in there and you're making up the most random scenarios and it's like we literally gave you real life scenarios. Why did you just choose something like you picked it out of a hat? And I feel like that's why they at the end of the day they shy away from it and they gear more towards more towards people who are lighter skinned or who are white passing because it's like okay cool we don't have to really like talk about their struggles because there really aren't any struggles there. And to me that just really feels unfair and it's like okay we're living in a world where there's people who face oppression and harm and physical verbal abuse every single day because of the color of their skin. And you are choosing to either make up a random scenario that makes no sense, that has never happened, or you're just gonna be like, oh, okay, we're gonna take the easy way out because you don't know how to handle it. And that is frustrating. Right, and I feel like coming off of what you said, I feel like sometimes we do have to look about like who's writing these shows and these movies, because if you have a room full of like, you know, Caucasian writers, they're not really gonna understand the black dynamic or understand the, you know, our hairstyles and what we do on a day-to-day basis. So that's why sometimes you get in those shows and in those movies, you get the mixed race girls, you get the, not the proper representation, you know what I mean? So I feel like it's also from that perspective as well. It's definitely about like, who is the one that's writing these things? Because yeah, they can listen to us, they can hear what we got to say, but at the end of the day, like you said, they could either choose not to put it in or just completely ignore it. Do you guys feel that sometimes they make their stories that they put on TV a little too real. Like what I mean by that is every time there is a dark skin character they have to face oppression on the screen. And you know there's nothing wrong with no representation but we we don't really get stories of just black people being happy no matter their their shade. Like we have a lot of coming of age movies where we see, you know, white kids falling in love and they're pursuing their dreams, figuring themselves out. But when it comes to putting that with black people, it's always someone has to get shot, they're in the hood, stuff like that. So how do y'all feel about that? You know, it's crazy. You said that and the first person I thought of was Tyler Perry. Immediately. Yes. I've been thinking about him. He loves to make- He's the first person I thought of because I literally cannot think of a movie where not one of his characters were not suffering. Either all- I remember from House of Pain, I used to watch that show every time it came on. Janine the Wise, she had a drug addiction. And Calvin, he was the dumb one. He flunked out of college,

0:18:11
and he had debt and all this stuff. And I'm just like,

0:18:14
why do you have to write people of color in that way? And you are a person of color. You already know what the struggle is like. You know how hard it is for us. Why can't you spin it and make it positive? You can't give us like a, you know, like a fairy tale story. Look at Diary of a Mad Black Woman. She got dragged out of her house.

0:18:32
I didn't even watch it.

0:18:33
See what I'm saying? She got dragged out of her house for this side chick and their kids. So I'm just like, why do you constantly have to make a struggle and put it on a big screen so people can come and watch and laugh and be like, oh, that's what y'all are like, or continue to contribute to the stereotype. I just, that was just always weird to me. Right, especially for people who don't have much exposure to Black people, they might live in a white area and they see, like, especially he writes, um, dark-skinned Black women as always angry, always suffering, and then he writes light-skinned Black women as, like, softer. And I think that also perpetuates the stereotype that there is some kind of difference between us even though we're all black. And black people are a lot more than the struggle. We're a lot more than just the pain, just police brutality, all that. We have so much rich culture that definitely can be explored that we only focus on one thing that's gonna sell tickets. Let's talk about the beauty industry now. Okay, I'm gonna start on a positive note when it comes to the industry. I have recently been seeing a lot of darker skinned women who are absolutely gorgeous and they're like they're getting the recognition they deserve on social media. But when I see them, it's like, oh my goodness, that makes me feel so confident like they have their natural curls like just their skin is just like beautiful and they're wearing like these colors that just pop on their skin I'm like why I wish the colors would pop on my skin like that when you when I look at that like I said Twitter there's no reason why this should only be happening on Twitter now we're gonna push COVID aside everybody was mad when Victoria's Secret they canceled their fashion show because they people were complaining that it wasn't diverse enough. And I was like, yeah, you're right. All of these women are, you know, closer to white. They're all the same size. There's very few Black women or women of color. And even when you see them, it's like they're trying to still be, they're trying to still have their Eurocentric features. Like they have everything that people would consider a white feature is like enhanced. Their hair is straightened, it feels like nothing is really them. It feels like people are putting stuff all over them so that they can fit a certain mold. And the only thing that's left is the color of their skin, but you don't even notice that because now everything else is different. When you look at the Savage Fenty show, both of them, it's like completely different. And people were like, well, that's because it was done by a black woman. But I don't think that's what it is. I think obviously that has something to do with it. But I also feel like as she's watching, as she is a business person, she's watching and listening to what people are having concerns with. She's realizing that representation does matter. And it's not just with the color of your skin, but also your body type. Also just a lot of things that are important when it comes to representation. And that is the one place in the beauty industry that I have noticed a change. And it's upsetting because she's new to this. This is literally she, I mean, I don't even know how many years and you can count on your hand how many years she's been in this industry. But when you look at Victoria's Secret, that's their whole brand. Like they've been at this and there's no excuse for why it's taken them so long and they had to cancel their stuff because they're just not doing it right. And it's offending them that people are upset that they're not being represented in a show that is as big as that is. That is absolutely so true. And I thought it was really cool to see that men were coming to the forefront on Twitter as well, saying like, oh my God, like, speaking along with the Rihanna Fenty show, she had male models of all shapes, sizes, everything. And it was so amazing to see men on Twitter saying like, oh my God, I can't believe I saw a dude in boxers that has my body size and my build. And I was just like, wow, you know, like, representation really does mean a lot, not just us girls, you know, it means a lot to the men as well, because there's not a lot of men in the fashion industry, I mean, the beauty industry. And if there are, you know, you know, some of them might be in the LGBTQ community, and not a lot of the men can relate to that. But I really do think that it's not fair that Rihanna did have to come in and shake the table up for everybody else. Like, why did it take so long? There have been Black people of different skin shades this whole time. Why did it take so long for us to be heard, to be listened to, to be represented. You know, and I'm just like, makeup has been around for so many years and the makeup industry has only been selling to one specific group of people. And it's just like, we just been on the back burner waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting. And it just doesn't make any sense. Like, why does it take so long for us to get represented or heard or shown in the light like Renwood's saying. So what needs to change in our communities to help expel colorism? Oh, I feel like that we definitely need to start coming together and start listening, especially people outside of our community because sometimes I really do feel like it's most of the other groups outside of our community that, you know, they have their stereotypes and their prejudgment on us. But I really do think that we definitely need to come together and just listen to one another, because that's a huge thing. Like, everybody wants to be heard, but nobody wants to listen. And that's the problem. If nobody's listening, there's not going to be any progress. We're not going to get rid of this colorism thing anywhere. But it is also hard because this is something that's been going on for years. This has been going on for years before we were even born, our parents were born. So it's not impossible, but it will take time. And I feel like kind of, sort of, we started that trend and I feel like we're getting somewhere. And you know, there's always going to be people that are like, you know, against it or a little late to the party, but you know, that's okay. But I really do feel like we have, we've definitely started to kick up something that's starting to awaken in people and we're showing them, you know, that there's different shades, not everybody is the same. We all want to be heard and we all want to be thought about and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. I 100% agree with that. To go along with that, I think that there's two things that I, or no, like three things that I think that we need to change in order to see a change. The first is start checking y'all faves, okay? I'm not gonna, I shouldn't have to explain what I mean with that, but there's some of y'all faves are very problematic when it comes to colorism. I'm not gonna name drop, but she's been problematic from the start of her career and she still is now, and her whole career is built around that. Take that how you want it. Go ahead and say the name. Right. That's just, I feel like, checking your face. People with platforms who want to turn a blind eye to it because, well, I'm already famous. No, check them too because it's like, you wouldn't be here without us. The second thing that I think needs to change is something that is probably very unlikely to change, but fetishization. Black men love to fetishize light-skinned women. And that is, I can't, like, it's very, very, very irritating. It's okay to have a preference, because everybody has preferences in life. But the comments that I see often on Twitter, I'm like, that's way past the preference. Like, you just completely, you desire that person way more than you should. Oftentimes that person is not checking for you. And in your desire for that person, you have not put down somebody who is literally the same shade as you. So I, and I say men, but I would also, I mean anybody, but you more so see it with men because I feel like they always looking for a chance to attack black women or people who identify as women who are black. And it's like, grow up. Hello? What does your mother look like? Let's talk to her. How would she feel if you felt this way about somebody who looks the same way as her? And so for me, that is very hurtful. It makes me like wonder. I'm like, oh my gosh, like if that's how you feel, that's a deep rooted hatred that you're having for yourself and for the person who birthed you and raised you and loves you more than she could ever say. The last thing that I want to say about this and what we need to change is wanting to be oppressed. Okay, I woke up this morning at, I wanna say seven o'clock and got on Twitter like I always do. And one of my really good friends said, light-skinned people cannot experience colorism. And I was like, thank you. I said, because some of y'all be talking without listening. In order to experience something, you have to be the person it applies to. So a lot of times people are like, oh, well, black people can't be racist. Yeah, because we have no power. I mean, people cannot say that they've been experiencing colorism or the way they express it, the same way that dark skinned people would. Like nobody is keeping you out of a job because you're light skinned. Being called, I'm not even going to go into that, but it's like you are still being, you are still desired. When people look at you and if they put a line up, they're going to pick you first for the team because of the way you look. Because they're going to automatically assume just several different stereotypes about somebody who has darker skin. And my thing is, you are getting the privilege at that point. And my thing is, yes, you will still experience racism, but you have to understand the difference between having experiencing colorism and just feeling like you are being mistreated or made fun of or something like that. But it's not along the lines of that. They don't like you because of the color of your skin. They probably just don't like you because you act a certain way. I mean, I've never ever like felt any way towards somebody who was lighter skin than I was. I've never really cared. And I don't think that a lot of dark-skinned people even care. I mean, because they're so caught up in the fact that people see them and treat them differently, that they don't care what y'all look like. They're so, they're worried about how they can look like you. The same way a lot of black people are worried about how they can appear to be more white in the way they speak and the way that they do things. Like, it's, if somebody wants to be you, you automatically have privilege. And that's, I mean, I don't, I can't, I don't know if I'm explaining it right. I don't know if I'm like confusing y'all, but I just feel like if somebody has a deep rooted desire, like they're going out of their way to be some, something that they're not, something that you are, well. You have the upper hand. Yes, yes.

0:29:34
Yeah, that makes complete sense.

0:29:36
So I just wanted to thank you both for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it. So, um, where can we find you at? Any socials that you'd like to share? Okay, y'all can find me on Instagram, that's aaron.simone, I'm gonna spell that for you, that's a-a-r-y-n, period. S-i-m-o-n-e.

0:30:09
Okay.

0:30:11
Period. You guys can find me on Instagram at nochillbree, that's bree with an e, not an i, don't get it twisted. And on Twitter, hold on let me check, because I always get the underscore wrong. I'm on my Twitter. I think it yeah, it's underscore no chill breeze. Well, it's where. Thank you once again for coming on the podcast. And thank you, audience, for listening to you. Don't listen. I'm your host, Karen Jean Charles, and I will see you next week. I'm your host, Karen Jean Charles, and I will see you next week.

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Transcribed with Cockatoo