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Where food opens the door to conversations about craft, culture & tradition.
The Wild Kitchen Ep. 13 Trine Hahnemann
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Tiffany: [00:00:00] My guest today is a Danish chef and food writer who once said she likes to think civilization starts at the dinner table, and I couldn't agree more. She's written over 20 cookbooks making that case. Trine Hahnemann, welcome to The Wild Kitchen.
Trine: Thank you so much for having me.
Tiffany: Yes, thank you very much. I wanted to start on one thing that I've, I've read in your books that there seems to be this overlying thread through all of them about fine dining and Michelin-starred restaurants.
And I was thinking about it the other day, and I, I was out for a fancy meal, and I was so hypercritical of every element of it, and all I could think of was how many different unpaid workers in the kitchen have touched this food and, you know, the lighting wasn't right, and it was a little too loud, and it was a beautiful meal, but I didn't enjoy it.
And I, I don't think I have enjoyed [00:01:00] a, a f- fancy, fancy meal in a restaurant or any Michelin-starred restaurant for quite some time in the same way that I have with a meal that I've had with friends or if my kids have cooked for me. I mean, I remember the last... Oh, I remember o- one time my kids made me a breakfast, uh, for my birthday, and there was, there was a worm on the plate 'cause they went out in the garden and they picked a bunch of food from our garden-
and they gave it to me, and it was one of the most memorable, amazing meals.
Trine: I mean, it's a big and complex topic- Yeah ... you can say.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Trine: I think, I think we, I think we've gotten a little bit sidetracked by all the fame and, uh, storytelling and h- what has been going on for the last 20, 25, 30 years. I mean, this- Mm
started in the '90s with big television shows and all kinds of things and, and we, we, we, we gotta be clear about that Michelin-star [00:02:00] dining is for very few people who can afford that.
Tiffany: Hmm.
Trine: It's a, a group of people, and it all started out actually not being about money. I remember in the '90s where I would go out and that, you know, I knew people, because people didn't have money in the way they have today, so people would save up, you know, for their anniversary and we're gonna go to this high-end restaurant, and we put 200 or 20 pounds or whatever, $20 aside- Mm
every month so we could afford that. And, and that whole kind of this is something special, like going to the theater or the opera- Mm ... or something like that, but it has nothing to do with whatever food we are having and the style of eating or whatever.
Tiffany: Hmm.
Trine: And this world has collided a bit more, and then of course there's a whole story about- The way they cook and the way, you know, the precision, uh, coming up with the most, uh, advanced things.
You know, bringing cooking into a science space [00:03:00] that is so far beyond anything you can do at home. And then at the same time next month, uh, have a cookbook published about how you feed your family. And I've always said, thought, "Yeah, yeah, right. You never feed your families because you're in that restaurant 90 hours a week."
Yeah, exactly. You know? So all of a sudden it becomes about so many other things than actually eating and cooking. Mm. But it has a space in our culture. Of course it does. Fine dining is, can be amazing But I, but I, in many ways, it's, uh, I think it is running its course. Mm. I think it has peaked.
Tiffany: I think when we look at families, uh, living on prepackaged processed foods n- not sitting down to meals anymore, it's so refreshing to read your books because they're just...
It's a totally different side of that, that fine dining side, but it, I think it's really accessible for people, and it's healthy. Uh, it's food that [00:04:00] people can cook on- Yeah ... on a Wednesday night, right? And it, it, you're, you're... I feel like you're inspiring people to sit down together as a family. You create this...
I mean, my mind's kind of going a few different ways. I have a number of things I wanted to chat with you about. I, the, there's the whole concept, the Scandinavian concept of, I'm, I know I'm gonna butcher how I say it, but hygge?
Trine: Yeah, hygge.
Tiffany: Yeah. Hygge. Um, and how it's... I, I feel like in North America, it's, it's packaged to us as buy this, uh, throw blanket or this pillow, and you're gonna make your room cozy or...
But when you read about it in, in your books, and, and I have to say, being in Scandinavia, everything in Scandinavia feels like you go in people's houses, and it's just so... There's, there's an emphasis on making people feel welcome and warm and, um, cozy, I guess. But in North America, it's like just purchase it and, and you can make it, [00:05:00] and it's, there's this breakdown between, between the two places.
Um-
Trine: Yeah, I think it's very important to remember that this restaurant business that is- Yeah ... of course crazy big in Copenhagen now, that is- Mm ... a new thing. 30 years ago, there were not restaurants like that, and going out for dinner was not some... I mean, I've never been to a restaurant with my grandparents, and I have been to- Mm
restaurant with my parents very few times because- Mm ... we just don't do that. We, we cook at home, and we have... And, uh, the same with my friends, you know? It's very rare that we go out to a restaurant together. We invite each other home, but we invite each other home a lot to, for dinners in the weekends and Friday night and things like that, and that's changing because my children go out with their friends to eat and, and so th- Mm
so th- this restaurant culture is a new thing. So you can say the Scandinavian model was built on [00:06:00] cooking at home. I mean, IKEA is from Scandinavia, right? Yeah. Which has kind of furnished the whole world with- Yeah ... you know, dining tables. And, and I think the whole idea of This is, this is the way the society was built.
It's the way... It's very cold, it's dark in the winter. Um, and therefore, you know, the culture of going out came to us much, much later than in, in south of Europe. Mm. Uh, and therefore having a place where you could meet your family and friend was important, and therefore we s- there's a culture around it.
And then of course, we've, we're all under pressure. The, also in the Scandinavian culture, we are really under pressure for the, for cooking the daily meal. Mm. And, and that's not, that's come to us as well. It's a bit later than it has been in North America, but it's, it's, i- it is very, very sad to say that even in [00:07:00] Scandinavia, people are spending less and less time cooking their daily meal.
Tiffany: I read somewhere that you're involved in a, a group with the government that, uh- Yeah ... works with, with food, and what sort of projects are you working on there?
Trine: I sit on the board of a organization called Madkulturen, which is like an entity. Uh, it used to be the Minister of Food and Agriculture. This- that's now been moved to being the Minister of, um, of Business and, and, uh, yeah.
Tiffany: Mm.
Trine: What... We work on a lot of different projects. Uh, the organization works on, of course, com- you know, surveying what is the culture right, like right now. Mm. What do we eat? How much time do we spend cooking? Who do we eat with in different e- age groups? And so on and on. Do we eat alone, and what are our preferred foods?
So that's a report we do every year, which is very, very useful because it gives us data about- Mm ... people's health, uh, their, [00:08:00] their whatever trends they're into and so on, and what of the Danish core, you could say, food culture is still alive in the everyday cooking.
Tiffany: Ah.
Trine: And then there's a lot of projects about teaching children to be interested in cooking.
Mm. Uh, one big project's been running for more than t- 10 years, is having a, um, uh, I think seventh graders or eighth graders now, I can't remember. They compete to be the class of the year in a cooking contest.
Tiffany: Oh, cool.
Trine: Uh, that is an amazing project. There is, um, uh, uh, taking part in big projects around, uh, having, you can say, uh, sport organizations, councils, you know, all kinds of groups working together to have the emphasis on, on w- what does...
how do you learn to cook? What i- what is it about? Mm. Uh, I mean, there's, there's a l- there's a lot of projects. We used to have a project in a [00:09:00] festival. We have had a, a, a hard time in the last year to c- find a sponsor for it, but we're at one of the biggest rock festival in K- the biggest rock festival in Denmark.
Oh. We would run a kitchen where you could sign up for a spec- specific slot of two hours, and you'd come with your friends, and then you would, with guidance, cook a meal and sit down and eat it.
Tiffany: Mm.
Trine: And there were no meat, no f- no... Only vegetables and fish And blue mussels. Wow. And, and it was sold out, and every festival we would have about 5,000 young people going through in a weekend, or in five days-
Tiffany: Oh my God
Trine: cooking with their friends. So you can say things like that. Yeah. During COVID, we traveled around to, to citizens, uh, to the small town and big towns, and met the citizens of Denmark, and we just put our huge kitchen. People would line up, and they would come to us, and we would be chefs running it, and they would say...
And only vegetables, and they would say, "This is my problem. This is what I would like to learn." And then we would [00:10:00] cook with everybody for, like, an hour, and set people up, and run around and go crazy. So all kinds of project that are in both, you can say, the data and the deep things about it, but also hands-on things- Mm
where we are out there in the field. Um, yeah. That's, that's am- Walking the talk.
Tiffany: Yeah, that's amazing. It's, it's, uh, there's nothing like seeing a kid who isn't comfortable in the kitchen, you see that light turn on- Yeah ... when they, when they've made something, and you see that pride in, in their face of something that they've made, and it tastes good.
And it, it completely, I mean, uh, it can, it can completely change them and change their, their outlook moving forward. Um- Yeah ... it's, it's amazing. Um, y- you mentioned that a lot of the work is vegetable forward. Is that typically Scandinavian? Because I, I know when, when I went there, it was... It, I felt like it w- I might have just been with the people I was with, but it felt very meat and potatoes heavy.
Yeah. Um, [00:11:00] I ate, I ate a lot of wild game and a lot of potatoes on that, on that trip, and a lot of bread and cheese. And it was fantastic, uh, but I... Your, your cookbooks, and I, it seems like your focus is a little bit more vegetable heavy. Is that... Am, am I- Yeah, I
Trine: mean-
Tiffany: Yeah?
Trine: No, you're not. It, it's... You can say traditionally vegetables were always part of it because- Mm
we didn't used to be able to afford to eat that much meat.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Trine: So I grew up with a always, you know, when we talk about the traditional way of eating, that is when I, this time I spent with my grandparents, which was quite a lot of time, and there would be a vegetable with all meals, and, but they would be seasonal.
And my grandmother would cook it differently than I do. It was still delicious, but-
Tiffany: Mm ...
Trine: you know, boil it a little bit more- ... different, so there were always a seasonal vegetables.
Tiffany: Okay.
Trine: Uh, and, and I also, uh- But the emphasis, but [00:12:00] then we ate a lot of potatoes, you know? Yeah. Like, it's a very, you always, I always tell this story about when we talk about this meat thing.
Yeah, but the reason why we have to talk about it is because we eat five meatballs for a meal now. I never, when I was little, I was given two meatballs.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Trine: And I cannot explain to you how I knew that I was not gonna ask for meatball until I finished my potatoes, right?
Tiffany: Yeah,
Trine: absolutely. Like, that was just not done, you know?
Mm-hmm. There was all these un- there was these hidden rules about how you behaved around food, and you knew what was the most expensive thing without knowing.
Tiffany: Yeah, absolutely.
Trine: And then, and I always just loved the vegetables, and I've always been so interested in it. And then on my parents' side, they were, like, very, they were You can say they were hippies in the '60s.
We lived in a commune. Mm. L- they lived in a different way, so I also grew up with brown rice and lots of vegetables and- Okay ... lots of beans and [00:13:00] lentils, which were not Danish at all, but- Yeah. ... very inexpensive because they had no money, and, you know, they lived in a different way. But I, for me, the reason why the emphasis is on vegetables is not...
It could be s- you know, political only, but it's not. Mm. I just absolutely love vegetables, and I always done. Mm. And I think vegetables is the most interesting thing to cook because you have... I mean, if we think about meat, there's nine kind of different kinds of meat, and then there's fish, and then there's- Yeah
you know. But if we take, there's a bit of... But it's, they are in categories. We can kind of find nine different things, nine or 10 maybe, and there are some birds in there as well. Mm. But if you take a chicken or a duck or a goose, it's same kind of category. And they can be made in a lot of different ways, but it has a limitation that vegetables doesn't have.
And I don't even- Yeah ... know all the vegetables on this planet, and I know a lot [00:14:00] of them, and I don't know- ... all the fruit. I still, when I travel, I still discover new things. When I meet a new forager, somebody will take me out and show me something that I did not know about, that I never tasted. Yeah. So from a culinary perspective, culinary perspective, vegetables are just, for me, where the innovation can be, where this is the exciting space.
This is where you can really play around with flavors.
Tiffany: Yeah. It, it seems, it seems like you, you start with a vegetable, and then everything kind of- Yeah ... goes from that.
Trine: Yeah.
Tiffany: Yeah. It's, I mean, yeah, it's, it, it, it is kind of endless. I, and with vegetables as well, I find that, um, like if you look at a... I forage quite a bit, and if you, if you look at a tree in the, in the springtime, you've got the blossoms on a, on a tree that you can harvest.
And then potentially some trees you can harvest the leaves, and, and then later in the season, there's the nuts off of it. And, and meat definitely, I 100% [00:15:00] agree with you, meat has... I mean, you can cook it different ways, but it doesn't have that sort of seasonality of, of completely different products from the same, same plant or item.
Trine: No I mean, there's a bit, there's a different... If you, if you get, like, real lamb, I mean- ... there's a lot, there's a lot of lamb that's not lamb, but a sheep. But you know, if you get the real thing, there's a difference between something that's matured, and there's a different of walking, and there's a different in, in farmed animals, and there is that.
But when it comes down to it, that umami flavor when you cook it raw, medium, or well done- Mm ... has a similarity.
Tiffany: Yeah, absolutely. That,
Trine: yeah. And, but I li- I'm not a vegetarian, uh, because I, I can't, I hate having limitations to the, to my i- to the idea of eating.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Trine: But, but my, [00:16:00] where the excitement is for me is, is a...
But then, again, now here in Italy, where am I right now, where we, where we, uh, has, where we have a, a, a little farmhouse and a garden and- There is a, there's a farm 30 kilometers from here who has these white Piemontese cows, and they have a farm shop.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Trine: And these are very famous for Piemontese and for, for Piemonte, and they are white and have these huge head, and they walk around in the, in the, in the pasture, in the, in the fields, and in the mountains.
Yeah. And I go there, and I c- buy a bistecca. And I go home, and it's a huge one. And I, I'm so excited, you know? And I... But I'm also very excited about w- what I, which kind of salsa am I gonna do? Which vegetables would I eat with it? And so on- Yeah ... and on and on. And that would, of course, be seasonal, whatever time of year it is.
But I won't, that's not something I do very often. I [00:17:00] maybe I do it three times a year.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Trine: But then when I do it, it's, it's super delicious.
Tiffany: It's a celebration 'cause it's special.
Trine: Yeah.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Trine: And then going back in time, you know, a whole roasted chicken when I grew up was a celebration. I did not have chicken unless it was a birthday or we had guests for Saturday evening or something like that, that we- Yeah
so things do also change, you know?
Tiffany: Yeah, absolutely. Well, y- uh, you mentioned that you're in Italy now, and as a, as a chef that's probably arguably known as being a, yeah, an expert on Scandinavian food, and how, how has that transition been to going to Italy? Is, um, is it like a whole new experience, eh, learning all the different, different foods down there?
Are you sort of translating them into Scandinavian style cooking, or what, what's it look like for you?
Trine: Yeah, I, uh, there's definitely some cultural mix. I... The interesting thing is [00:18:00] that I actually know a lot about Italian cooking- Yeah ... because before I started specializing or writing so much about my heritage, I was a food writer for a ladies magazine in Denmark, uh, for quite some year- years where I had a column.
And when you have Itali- Italian food is really, really big in Scandinavia. Mm. Uh, Scandinavians travel to Italy a lot, and they love the food and the wine, so I got invited to Italy all the time to write about it. Mm. So for seven years, I, writing about Italian food was one of my big things. And, uh, so I, I learned a lot, and then I moved into writing books.
Because before I wrote my first book about Scandinavian food, I wrote book about everyday food, which was kind of inspired from both my heritage and the Scandinavian and but also from around the world. Mm. So but I, I mean, I love pasta. Mm. I love risotto. Yeah. I love all these things, but of [00:19:00] course my way of eating, which my books are also a testament to, hasn't changed.
But what has changed probably is that I have a garden, and I'm trying to grow- ... vegetables. I have a, I have a orchard with hazelnuts. I have fruit trees. Oh. I have berries. So I'm, I planted all the Nordic berries down here, and- Yeah ... and, uh, this is the first year where I could harvest a lot of berries. And, and of course, that was in June instead of end of July.
Tiffany: Yeah,
Trine: exactly. So, so the seasons are shifting a little, you know? Yeah. But, but one thing, red currants- Mm ... for some reason red currants, I'm in North Italy- Yeah ... are really big here, and they are still selling them at the market. I go to the market- Yeah ... every Tuesday and Friday morning, and we have a lot of things with red currants in Scandinavian f- uh, recipes.
And so I've been doing all these red currant things. Of course, then I do ves- uh, you know, I do apricot and peaches and stuff like that. I [00:20:00] usually would do an apricot jam at home, but I would never do anything with peaches. And the reason why I would never do anything with peach in Denmark is all the peaches you get, they have no flavor.
All of a sudden I'm somewhere- Yeah. ... where the peaches are so good. So in that sense, but I'm still, you know, making the jam the same way as- Yeah ... I, I was taught, you know? So I think it's a nice cultural, um, mix.
Tiffany: Yeah. And so I, I guess probably by necessity, um, northern climates in places like Scandinavia are, seem to be quite heavy on or a lot of emphasis on preservation.
Mm-hmm. Uh, is, are you seeing that same emphasis in Italy, or is there- Yeah. Yeah? Huh.
Trine: Do you know what? Because we've lost it in, in a general terms, not in historic terms. No. But one thing that really, really surprised me, you know, we started, um, uh, spending summers down here three years ago, and when you go to the hardware store [00:21:00] now and the supermarket, the first thing right now in August that will be on the table where they're displaying what is on sale right now will be jars and everything to make tomato sauce and pickle with.
And that just say, that, that just tells you something, because if, if a hardware store have a whole section with that- Yeah ... that's because people buy it.
Tiffany: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, that's... I, my, my local grocery store, it's this weird little independent grocery store, same thing. You go in, it's just, like, jars and, and canning supplies everywhere- Yeah
and it just-
Trine: Yeah ...
Tiffany: makes you feel good.
Trine: But Italians, they also put a lot of vegetables traditionally-
Tiffany: Mm ...
Trine: uh, in salted brine, uh, i- in September, October for the tomatoes- Yeah ... the zucchini, the aubergines for the winter.
Tiffany: So slight- slightly different methods of preservation, but still- Yes ...
Trine: yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. W- Scandinavian way is very vinegar based.
Tiffany: Okay. Yeah, all the, the fish and stuff too, I [00:22:00] guess, is-
Trine: Yeah ...
Tiffany: the herrings and things. And you've mentioned, I don't know where I saw it, but you s- mentioned something about how, uh, in Scandinavia, there's, there's 12 seasons.
Trine: Yeah.
Tiffany: Do you feel the same way in, in Italy that there's, there's 12 seasons, or...?
Trine: No, the seasons are longer.
Tiffany: Yeah, okay.
Trine: Um, but, um- But, um, yeah, the seasons are longer for some things. Mm. But strawberries weren't, you know, local strawberries, uh, in north Italy is not... It probably is 10, 10 weeks. What I see here in my- Mm ... local little town, which you of course don't see in Milan and Torino in the same way, but, but actually here where I li- where we have our house and live, uh, a lot of the time, it is more seasonal than Denmark right now.
Okay. There is... It's, it's more difficult to get strawberries out of [00:23:00] season, and something like broccoli. Broccoli in Denmark you can get year-round.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Trine: You cannot get broccoli here if it's not in season.
Tiffany: Really? Broccoli's one of those plants that you just figure... I mean, where I, where I, w- we live in Vancouver, it's 12 months a year.
Trine: Yeah.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Trine: Here, I haven't figured f- it's autumn. All cabbage is autumn here.
Tiffany: Okay.
Trine: They have a white summer cabbage which is a little different than the Scandinavian one called Verduna or Verduni or something. But they are still very seasonal here.
Tiffany: I saw, y- you've mentioned before growing up that... I read in one of your cookbooks about your experience cooking cakes in the communal kitchen, and just having-
the freedom to, to mix things up and, and make food. And, and growing up you felt like, like you didn't choose cooking, cooking chose you. And, and I know I, I feel like I, when I read that, I'm like, that sounds like, I felt like you're [00:24:00] telling a similar story to what I experienced. I was in university studying sociology, knowing full well that that was, I had no interest whatsoever in pursuing that.
In the kitchen, I felt like that I just, that was home. Um, do you, cooking at home now, um, and making, doing cookbooks and all these things, do you still, do you still feel like it's, it's your chosen, chosen path, and there's nothing else like it?
Trine: I don't feel it's my chosen path, but I feel there's nothing like it.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Trine: If I wasn't making a living from it-
Tiffany: Mm ...
Trine: it would still be in the core of my existence because it, there is nothing that connect me more to reality than cooking
Tiffany: Do you think that it's something that most people should feel? Cooking food for themselves and for their families and people they care about, they [00:25:00] should have a, that feeling like it's, it's in their core of their being?
Trine: I would wish for it to be like that. I think it's very difficult. I think it has to be, um, e- especially in this time we lived in now.
Tiffany: Mm.
Trine: I find it very diff- I, it has to be a more collective thing. I understand people, you know, who l- moves into, in Denmark, people, they build these little communities with 30 houses, and then they build a, then they build a big kitchen with a dining hall, and then they cook for each other, so you only cook twice a month, but for everybody.
I understand that people having all these systems because it is difficult to make it all work in the way we have built our lives.
Tiffany: Yeah.
Trine: So I, I, I wanna be very open that I have a lot of respect for people understanding how it is today with the way we have chosen, and I also wanna [00:26:00] emphasize that I'm not asking women to go back to the kitchen and take care of their families.
Tiffany: No.
Trine: Because I think a choice, i- for how you wanna live your life is very, very important and, and-