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Some Future Day evaluates technology at the intersection of culture & law.
Join Marc Beckman and his esteemed guests for insider knowledge surrounding how you can use new technologies to positively impact your life, career, and family. Marc Beckman is Senior Fellow of Emerging Technologies and an Adjunct Professor at NYU, CEO of DMA United, and a member of the New York State Bar Association’s Task Force on Cryptocurrency and Digital Assets.
Marc Bechman: Danny, thank you for joining Some Future Day. It's a pleasure to see you today.
[00:02:00] Danny Yatom: Thank you very much Mark for inviting me.
[00:02:03] Marc Bechman: So, let's start with technology in general. I realize that Israel and, Mossad has a tremendous amount of technology that is used to its advantage. can you talk briefly about the higher level of technology that Israel and Mossad has? Obviously, I know a lot of this is, confidential and classified, but in general terms, give us a rundown.
[00:02:34] Danny Yatom: Yes, I'll try. Firstly, you know that our nickname is the Startup Nation. Israel is considered to be the Startup Nation. This is mainly because many Israelis, relatively to the number in the population, are dealing with startups. Either developing start ups or investing in start ups, and this is due mainly to the following reasons.
[00:03:10] The first one, are creative Israelis. There are also creative Americans. But I think that, relatively to the number of population, Israel leads in the world with creative people. Just look, at, the Nobel Prize laureates. There are some 10 or 11 or 12 Israelis with a Nobel Prize, which are Nobel Prize laureates in many spheres and in relation to the number of population, we are, I think, second in the world.
[00:03:52] Secondly, Israelis, there is a compulsory service and the Israelis are serving in combat units and some others. When they accomplish their military tour after, between two and a half, to three years, now it will probably, become again three years. When they study physics, mathematics, or whatever, they have the advantage of being both academics in those areas, but also people that acquire a lot of experience.
[00:04:34] serving in the military. So for instance, if somebody is a pilot in the military service and he's a reservist, he has, in order to keep his capabilities, he has to fly at least one day per week. And the other days he's working in, let's say, A big firm like, Intel or whatever it is, when he is asked to develop something for the Air Force, for an airplane, for a pilot, has the advantage over many others which are residing in many other countries that were not pilots, and they don't know exactly what are the needs of a pilot.
[00:05:24] The same is with naval officers, the same with, infantry officers, or not, necessarily officers, but also, soldiers, and so on and so forth. So the fact that we have a compulsory service helps us a lot. To come with ideas and with, solutions that the belonging to any other countries, they cannot compete with.
[00:05:56] Because the experience is very, important and we have a wonderful, advanced, Military industry that, for instance, in many cases, comes with ideas and present the ideas to the Mossad and to the Shin Bet, which is, parallel to the FBI and to the Israel Defense Forces. They come with ideas because they understand exactly what need the one in the field.
[00:06:33] And, in many, cases, the, startups and the new developments, the new developed, devices that Israel, produced come while is not the military, is not, is not the army. The initiator is the, engineer. Which is also a pilot that, works in a high tech company. The second thing is that we are pushed to the wall. We are a small country and, we are surrounded by enemies. Now, it's, an excellent, example to portray the situation of, the Israelis.
[00:07:29] We are, we were under a brutal attack. Hamas us, surprisingly, killed, slaughtered, raped, cut pieces of bodies, beheaded, babies, some atrocities. Some horrific things and, I bring it as an example because on a daily basis we need to be on a high alert and, the need brings the opportunities.
[00:08:09] We need to be the best because we are few against many. We need to have the best weapon systems. We need to train the best way our soldiers. So there is a need. And due to the need, we are doing our utmost in order to come with new elements. In order to keep the qualitative edge between us and our enemies.
[00:08:38] Marc Bechman: So, you know, Danny, that's interesting. I was actually I was told by, recently, last week, I was told by an IDF soldier who, served on the border where the, you know, some people call it the Iron Wall, this, you know, very highly advanced technological wall exists separating, Gaza from Israel. I was told that he actually served on that. wall in that area for an extended period of time and that it was so sensitive that even if a bird or a dog touched it, it would alert and, immediately the soldiers would, go over and see what, caused that, that alert. So I'm curious. If the technology is so advanced and so high, how was Hamas able to infiltrate on October 7th with such, you know, crude, what appears to be at least such crude means on their side?
[00:09:39] Danny Yatom: Well, it is our fault, first and foremost. We failed. We, the Israel Defense Forces, and the political leadership, and the intelligence apparatuses. All were under a false conception, and the conception was, it came from the government and the Prime Minister of Israel, and the conception was that Hamas is deterred.
[00:10:08] And as long as Hamas is deterred, Hamas will never ever try to do something. That that will put him in a clash with Israel. Of course that it was a big mistake because Hamas was never deterred. And this is, of course, the failure of the intelligence apparatuses. Not to read correctly the Capabilities of Hamas and what Hamas thinks about doing in the relation between Hamas and Israel.
[00:10:48] But not only that, the other part of the conception was that this is a conflict. The conflict between the Palestinians and the Israelis is a conflict. That can be managed. We can contain it. Meaningly, Netanyahu does not want that a Palestinian state will be created. He does not believe in two states solutions to the two peoples.
[00:11:18] He's against it. And he says it now loud and clear in his negotiation with the Americans. with the, with Mr. Blinken that right now he is in Israel today, so in order to foil any attempt to create a Palestinian state, what naan did he diminish the Palestinian authority? which rules Judea and Samaria administratively.
[00:11:53] And he strengthened the Hamas by giving the Hamas money, humanitarian aid, gasoline. Whatever. And the Hamas grew up. Now, part of the money, now, when we see the huge, something like 500 kilometers of tunnels. Underneath the surface, in many places, it is, it goes down to 50 or 60 meters. Unbelievable. We failed in understanding those tunnels. We knew a little bit about it, but we didn't know with intelligence. Didn't know enough about it, the cement, for instance, that, entered into Gaza, in most of the cases, was, taken forcefully by the Hamas, and the Hamas used it in order to build the tunnels.
[00:13:05] In order to give it to the population, so the population will be able to enjoy it by building new houses and many other, or, paving roads. Whatever. So, this was the conception and, it
[00:13:26] touched also the military apparatuses. From the chief of staff down to, I don't know, it can go down a long way. Because a military force should be ready always, 24 7, conduct its mission. And the mission there was to defend the civilians. The mission there was to defend the settlements. And what happened was that the level of alert was not enough, and therefore those 3, 000 terrorists who were able to penetrate into the area where people were still sleeping and they invaded sensitive areas like for instance the headquarters of division commander. The headquarter of the division commander was attacked in the first stage and he could not manage his forces. He was under attack. He fought for his life. He had no time and he had no capability to organize his forces and to counter attack, etc, So, this is not that technology betrayed us, okay?
[00:15:02] This is because technology cannot fully replace us. There is a limitation until when a technology can be of help, but never ever think that technology can replace you. You need a human being as a back in order to be sure that if something happens to technology, You have a backing solution.
[00:15:33] Marc Bechman: So, if, then the dichotomy is between technology and intelligence or human, and there was a, you know, it's been reported that, there was, again, You know, who knows whether or not these reports are accurate, but I did read, and I'm sure you did too, that there was information about Hamas's capabilities and planning that went to the Israeli leadership, the Israeli government, in advance of October 7th.
[00:16:02] That sounds like a human breakdown. Did they just If that's true, in your expert opinion, did they just believe that they could rely on the technology to be safe, or did they also believe that Hamas was incapable of pulling off such a thing, notwithstanding the fact that it had all of this money and, support from international, players, including both, by the way, Iran and the United States, right?
[00:16:27] The United States was, funding, Gaza and Hamas too.
[00:16:31] Danny Yatom: Yes, technology is very important, but as I said, it, has limitations. And, what Hamas did, it studied us very well. And you found our weak points in the system. And when they started the invasion, they, bombed or whatever certain places. And by that, they blinded the entire capability of the forces.
[00:17:08] To use the very advanced cameras in order to try and, to locate those that crossed the border. But those cameras were not even needed because the soldiers that, sit next to the, Well deployed. Next to the border, those ones that did not sleep and were on alert out of their barracks. They saw them by bare eyes.
[00:17:44] In this case, cameras could not help. The early warning that one could Achieve or understand or provide depends on when did the spotters saw the terrorists and they saw them maybe five minutes before they invaded their own places. So it was not enough. What we lacked was something which is more deep information, not only about the capabilities, but information about the intentions of the Hamas.
[00:18:31] And here we did not have an information about the intentions of Hamas. I'll tell you the truth. I've been also in the Yom Kippur War. I was then a deputy commander of a tank battalion after I finished my service in, in Sayot Matkal, in the commando unit. And we were surprised when the war broke out.
[00:18:56] You know, how did I understand that the war broke out? Only when Egyptian airplanes bombed us in our, barracks. Only then we understood that the war started. Here it was exactly the same. They, cross. The fence, and they crossed the border, and then it took them less than five minutes to arrive to, to, to, the headquarters and to arrive to the places where soldiers, were sleeping.
[00:19:31] So We need technology. Many weapon systems, based on high technology, are in use today in Gaza, in the Gaza Strip, by Israeli soldiers, but technology is not enough. And technology, as I said previously, cannot give all the answers. According to the definition, and it is a very, strict definition, the first and foremost goal of the intelligence apparatuses is to provide an accurate and on time, early warning that a war might break out.
[00:20:15] The intelligence failed totally, it did not provide it. It failed in its main mission. He did not fulfill his main mission. Now, the same with, deterrence. And the same with, being able to decide the enemy. We did not decide the enemy this day. On the, 7th of October, unfortunately, it is not that easy to say, but during the first day or during the first 24 hours, we, the Israelis, lost to to the Hamas, and it took us some two days in order to come back.
[00:21:06] To our feet, to fight the Hamas back, and to push the Hamas back to the Gazan territory. It was not, not simple. I don't know many armed forces that can rehabilitate. In so a short period of time and to enter to a counter attack, this was, one of our good lucks. Hamas
[00:21:39] Marc Bechman: you talk about these soft spots along the fence, do you think that Hamas had information in advance that it used to its, benefit, to penetrate over and through the fence?
[00:21:54] Danny Yatom: Yes Hamas had information. We know it from, inquiring, of Hamas terrorists that we captured. and, there were, in order to help the Palestinians, the Israeli administration, allow some of them to work in Israel. Some, meaning, some thousands from Gaza and some dozens of thousands from the West Bank, on a daily basis.
[00:22:31] And those that are Gazans and worked in, the same, settlements that later on they attacked and slaughtered their people. You see, the members of the kibbutz, for instance, they gave them work, they gave them food, they enabled them to live because, they earned money, they got their salaries. In Israel, and then they came and slaughtered the same people that feed them, firstly.
[00:23:09] So yes, they came with, information. They knew many locations, sensitive locations, some other locations, and according to what, We saw also in their combat maps, they knew a lot about, their targets. Yes.
[00:23:33] Marc Bechman: So it sounds like it was really a well organized plan, and, you know, the idea of the, Palestinians coming and killing the people who they knew is, just horrific to think about and consider. Earlier, I mentioned, the United States has been providing Financial aid to the Palestinians. I know that this is something that's been happening for decades.
[00:24:02] It was stopped during the Trump administration, but kicked in again during the Biden administration. but I also understand that the United States and Israel have always had a very special. So, I'm wondering, in your opinion, is President Biden, since, you know, since this war has started, has President Biden done enough for Israel and, the Israeli people, to support, in your opinion?
[00:24:33] Danny Yatom: I think that President Biden is the most committed president, American president ever to the state of Israel and to its, security. He did a lot in, in those, events that we were speaking about and as far as I understand. Yeah. When it was notified to him that Hamas invaded and killed some 1, 200 people at one day, slaughtered them in cold blood, he immediately sent some warships to the eastern part of the Mediterranean in order to deter Hezbollah and Iran, because there was It was a worry that while we are dealing with Hamas and we are in a state of trying to rehabilitate ourselves, it was before the counter attack that pushed them back to Gaza, was a fear that Hezbollah will open fire as well and will do the same.
[00:25:49] Hezbollah has, as well, what he called the Radwan Force. which they refer to it as commando units, and they have plans to invade the northern part of Israel. And there was a worry that they will do it with the support of Iran. Therefore, President Biden not only send three, forces, each of which is led by a carrier, but he also said in his voice.
[00:26:27] That if anyone will dare to attack the State of Israel while we are struggling over there with the Hamas, then the United States of America might intervene. And I think that it was The right, time and the right, way to express it, and it helped. I think that, Hezbollah did not, of course, they are fighting, there is a war along the, northern border between Israel and, Lebanon.
[00:27:03] And Hezbollah fights the Israel Defense Forces. But it is still a limited world, and this is due to the deterrence of the United States.
[00:27:14] Marc Bechman: How many days did it take for Israel to react and respond with military after October 7th?
[00:27:23] Danny Yatom: It, took us almost, no time, because we have a very good and effective system to recruit all our, reservists. The main force of the Israel Defense Forces and I Do not reveal here any secret is based on reservists. We have a standing armed forces, but we have much more reservists in reserve units.
[00:27:56] You can find the division that's from the division commander until the last chef. All of them are reservists, the battalion commanders and the brigade commanders and all the division, as I said, and there are divisions. Which are active duty divisions, like the division that I commanded many years ago, and they are reinforced by reservists.
[00:28:27] So there are two types of reservists. Those that reinforce, standing, force army, military units, and those which are all, part of a reserve unit. And I think that, the reservists started to appear. Less than 12 hours after the terrorists invaded Israel, which is a very short time.
[00:28:57] Marc Bechman: and then how many days until Israel actually struck back?
[00:29:01] Danny Yatom: It took some two weeks because we had, the military had to organize them, to train them. It is something new to enter into Gaza and for the reservists. And to fight between the houses, so it took, two weeks, I think, something like that, to add, things that were missing, I don't know, combat vests, and Some other parts that were missing, they were missing because when the reservists were called upon, they arrived to their camps, not in number, which is 100 percent of what should be.
[00:29:54] But 150 percent of what should be. Everybody wanted to take part in the war. And to join forces in order to, protect the citizens, although it was in most of the cases too late, but, till today you can find, now we start to withdraw the reservists back to their homes, but, it is a phenomenon that, I'm very proud of.
[00:30:31] That 150 percent of the needy people arrived It
[00:30:37] Marc Bechman: it's really remarkable. I heard like beyond the vest, like I actually have some colleagues of mine who are right now raising funds to help some of the reservists in the north near Lebanon, finance, night goggles, night vision. So I understand like beyond just the vests, there are other, parts of gear, that's, still required.
[00:31:01] Danny Yatom: is mainly with, let's, speak about, the night goggle devices. We are talking about the modern ones, which are thermal, okay? They are based on, thermal, capabilities. capabilities them, you can so that when you use them due to you can see a soldier in the temperature of his body and the surrounding.
[00:31:31] This is a thermal, night vision goggles. Now, usually, not every soldier wear it, only part of them, but everybody now wants it, and it is beyond. What the Israel Defense Forces prepared. So in these cases understand it, it gives you a big advantage during night time over the terrorists understand fully.
[00:32:03] Why almost everybody would like to wear thermal light vision goggles, and I'm pleased that the communities in United States of America, Jewish communities, contribute. To the, reservists, such devices.
[00:32:21] Marc Bechman: it's interesting. We talk about the time period from October 7th. The Reservists start coming to Israel and it was a extended period of time until Israel struck back and started, you know, started pushing Hamas back. But then as, you know, as a New Yorker, I'm sure you saw this too as an Israeli, People all over the world started protesting against the Jewish people, against the Israelis, in all the major cities, New York, London, Paris, all over the world. And Israel hadn't even struck back yet. and thousands of people were coming together here in New York, marching, and they still continue to do so. So, I'm curious, Danny, like, from your perspective, as you were hearing, about these, protests against Israel that was just attacked and hadn't even started attacking back, like, what was going through your mind?
[00:33:20] I know that you've you know, involved with the Israeli government and the military for your entire career, your entire life. Like, what went through in your mind? Have you ever seen anything like this before? And what do you think is the cause of all of this?
[00:33:32] Danny Yatom: The cause of all of it, I think, is the fact that, the world is changing, Mark. And today, there are many, people, students in the universities, mainly youngsters, I think. that Participate in rallies against Israel because they side always with the, what they think the poor and the the weak partner or part.
[00:34:08] They looked at the Israel Defense Forces these tanks and APCs guns and guns and moderate and modern weapon systems. They looked at the bombardments that our Air Force bombed the cities because we do it due to the fact the terrorists are there and the terrorists use the population as a human shield. We warn the population to leave the places, in many cases.
[00:34:43] Either they do not, leave the places because of their own willing, or they are forced to stay there because of the terrorists. And the terrorists, their mindset is, that Israel will never dare to attack places where there are, which are suspected to be with, Non involved Palestinians, but we have to, hit the Hamas very fiercely.
[00:35:20] We have to destroy the frames of its capabilities, the battalions, the brigades that Hamas operated.
[00:35:32] And there is no way in such a dense area and environment that if Hamas does not allow the people to live, there is no way that they will live and there is no way that we will stay aside and will not attack. So what we are doing, our utmost. In order to avoid any, casualties among the population.
[00:36:06] But we have to, the, those who are rallying in the streets of New York or wherever, they have to ask the question, the, terrorists. Because they are the ones that caused, from the beginning, they attacked us. And we are now counterattacking. We will not destroy them. And if we will not destroy them, people will never ever come back to their villages and cities.
[00:36:39] In the western part of the Negev. In addition to it, we have a very bad propaganda system. Never worked. All along the years. Never worked. Maybe because we do not allocate enough, resources to have, in a propaganda system that will be able To tell foreigners, which are living out of Israel, that this is the picture.
[00:37:12] instead of them, against the terrorists that slaughtered babies, children, elderly people, some of which Holocaust survivors. They condemn us. And in addition to it antisemitism. is on the growths. It grow up because of many reasons in Europe, in the United States, and those who are antisemite semitics, they will, condemn us and not condemn the Palestinians.
[00:37:55] Marc Bechman: so, you know, it's interesting, Danny, when you talk about Israeli messaging, propaganda, marketing, Hamas isn't something new. Maybe these college, university level students that you're signaling towards don't know the history of Hamas. I mean, certainly in your lifetime, you've seen this terrorist organization. attack Israeli citizens over and over again. Your military, in fact, is there. Your military capabilities are there to defend itself against its, you know, the, Israeli neighbors, Arab nations. but from your perspective, like, there there seem a lot of parallels. We could go back to like the 90s.
[00:38:36] We could go back to the 80s, the 70s, Hamas, Hezbollah. Islamic Jihad, they all keep coming and it's the same thing. So what is the difference between when you get to the personal level, what's the difference between Israel and Hamas?
[00:38:52] Danny Yatom: Hamas is a religious terrorist organization,and when you u read its covenant, it has a covenant. It is written there that, any good Muslim should kill the Jewish people, but not only the Jewish people, also all the other infidels. The Christians, and even Muslims, which do not behave accordingly to the Qur'an, the holy book of of Islam.
[00:39:26] In addition to it, it is written there that a that the good Muslim should participate. in destroying the state of Israel they They never ever recognize Israel and recognize our right to exist. Therefore, there is no way to negotiate with them, because you do not negotiate with your hanger, the one who is going to, or would like to hang you. You fight against him.
[00:40:01] And this covenant And this, belief is, typical also to the Hezbollah, even though the Hezbollah are Shiites, and the Hamas are Sunnis, and it applies also to all the other religious Muslim terror organizations in the world, and it applies also to Iran, because Iran, which is the octopus with so many arms.
[00:40:33] has the same, concept to destroy the state of Israel and to build upon the remnants of the state of Israel and a new Shiite caliphate, which will handle the country and manage the issues. Strictly according to the Quran, and this is something that they really intend to achieve. This is why Hezbollah uses, many other forces, like we call it proxies.
[00:41:12] The Hezbollah, the Islamic Jihad, the Hamas, the Houthis, the, Shiite militias. In Iraq, in Syria, we are surrounded by all of them. As a matter of fact, it brings me to something which is different, and this is the axis of evil. Iran leads the axis of evil. The participants in the axis of evil are those that I mentioned.
[00:41:45] In addition to it, the axis of evil is supported by China and by Russia. The liberal axis is the axis that should be led by the United States. And usually what we thought, according to our security concept, was that Israel is capable to fight in order to defend ourselves by ourselves, but in two fronts.
[00:42:15] Like against the Hezbollah and the Hamas. When it comes to more participants, then the, the liberal axis should, appear and United States of America should lead the modern axis with the participation of the European countries, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the Hamas is the main. The main enemy of Egypt, for instance, is the Brotherhood.
[00:42:50] Marc Bechman: but it seems like, the United States, is doing everything they can to try to, curtail the spreading of this war, you know, for a lot of reasons, including, by the way, politics, domestic politics here in the United States, but, you know, is it feasible then to be Hamas, like, essentially you're talking about these terrorist nations, these proxies, not nations, but these proxy terrorist groups that have been around for decades and decades and have been, you know, behaving the same way, throughout lifetimes, generations now.
[00:43:28] So, is it even feasible for Israel, with or without the support of the United States, to beat Hamas?
[00:43:36] Danny Yatom: of course, we don't need the support of the United States. We need the weapon systems. We need the ammunition. We need, some, assistance We do not need any American soldier to, We do not need American boots on the ground. We don't want anyone to defend us but ourselves. And we can decide the Hamas, and that's what we are doing now, we are pushing Hamas almost to a very critical point, and we are able and we are capable also to hit the Hezbollah.
[00:44:17] I have to confess that it won't be easy, and one mistake that we did along the years was that we took the possibility that we are heading towards peace in the Middle East too seriously. And this tells you, somebody like me, I always, almost all my life, in addition to fighting our enemies, I try also to find a way in order to strike a peaceful deal or normalization deal with our neighbors.
[00:44:59] what we did, we decrease armed forces. And we have today less divisions than we used to have. One of the lessons learned from what's going nowadays with Hamas and Hezbollah is that we have to, increase back our fighting forces and to use a lot of money in order to buy more equipment, more tanks, more aeroplanes, everything, in order to build additional capabilities.
[00:45:35] would like also to note, two, two, two additional things. Firstly, I think that, our government is a
[00:45:47] body that does nothing, and I think that the Prime Minister should resign immediately, and this is because his part in the failure of the 7th of October, but also because of his part a year earlier. When he came with the stupid idea of the judicial reform, that we call the judicial coup, that disintegrated the Israeli society for months after months.
[00:46:19] We are lucky because we have wonderful soldiers. We have wonderful civilians. They left aside all the other issues. They stopped discussing and arguing. And they run to the battlefield, but I think that our Prime Minister Netanyahu, due to his involvement in the 7th of October, or disinvolvement in the 7th of October, and even firstly, for the entire year since the creation, since the establishing, of this government, it should resign immediately.
[00:47:01] And the other point is, look at the state of Israel. Since 48, since we received our independence, we are fighting all the time. wars, like the Yom Kippur War, like the Six Days War, like the Sinai, operation. Like the two war in Lebanon in two th in 82 and 2006. And at the same time, and we are not a rich country, we developed all the areas of our lives.
[00:47:40] We lead in the area of, drones. We lead in the area of agriculture in arid areas. We lead in the area of, startups. It is a miracle. Although we have to invest a lot, and time, in order to being able to defend Israel. We have the capabilities to continue and to develop all those arrays. And I see it as a miracle.
[00:48:13] And, I will do my utmost that it will continue to be a miracle. And that this miracle will never be harmed.
[00:48:22] Marc Bechman: Danny.
[00:48:23] Do you feel the immediate removal of Netanyahu would have a imminent positive impact on this war against Hamas and all of the Iranian proxies?
[00:48:36] Danny Yatom: Yes, I know Netanyahu many years. And I think that even today, during the war, he's behaving incorrectly. Not in a correct way. Because whenever there is a collision between his personal interest and the interest of the war, or the interest of the State of Israel, he always prefer his own interest, and it is not a new phenomenon.
[00:49:05] It started many years ago. We know it. This is our main claim against Netanyahu. You can hear it from many Israelis. So as long as this is the situation, and instead of leading the Israeli defense forces, In the war, he is dealing with politics. He has to leave
[00:49:28] Marc Bechman: Well, it seems like he doesn't even trust his own supporters in his cabinet, didn't he recently ask them to all take polygraph tests?
[00:49:37] Danny Yatom: Yes. Not only that, he built a coalition, which was unheard of. This is the most, right wing coalition ever. It was established in the State of Israel with the two ultra, I call them Co Klox Klan, member of, members of the Co Klox Klan, the Smotrich and, and, Ben Gvir. What they are doing now, what bothers them is how to expand the area of the State of Israel.
[00:50:20] How to take over Judea and Samaria and annex it. How to annex the Gaza Strip and to build their settlements. And
[00:50:36] look, this is also the American attitude towards them. They see them, the American administration sees them. As fascists, Masonics and, people that, used the opportunity of being elected to positions where they can influence in order to advance only their own agenda, not the agenda of Israel, their own agenda. And this is something that frightens me, not frightens me, but worries me because, their agenda is opposite to the agenda that I think should be the agenda of the State of Israel, which means to hit the Hamas, to avoid the war with Hezbollah, and to try and to, solve it peacefully via diplomatic, ways and means.
[00:51:48] To understand that, we will never ever control Gaza, and we should not control Gaza, and they are against, the two states to the two people.
[00:52:00] Marc Bechman: you believe a two state solution is the best path forward then?
[00:52:03] Danny Yatom: as a matter of fact, yes, and I agree that we will have to make sure that, those which will lead the Palestinians. In their state, and it won't going, it is not going to happen now. It will take time, but the leaders of the Palestinians. Which will rule Juda, Samaria, and the Strip. Should be honest, strict, should not, call for antisemitism, should not call for, terrorizing the state of Israel.
[00:52:45] If they want to live in this neighborhood next to us, they should be. A peaceful entity.
[00:52:58] Marc Bechman: So it's interesting going back, looking back in your career. A two state solution, obviously, is, I, would imagine, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I would imagine it's something that has been very important philosophically to you to find peace within the region for decades now. so I'm curious, like, going back to your years, in, in, you know, going back all the way back to Rabin, why has Israel been unable to find a peaceful solution? with two states.
[00:53:32] Danny Yatom: At the beginning, we, the Israelis, after Oslo, we did not, Rabin did not speak about the state. Rabin spoke about an entity lesser than a state. He did not define it, in a more clear way, but I think that if Rabin was not assassinated, he would have come to the understanding that there should be a Palestinian state and not nothing which is amorphic, something less than a Palestinian state.
[00:54:11] Rabin tried his utmost. I was then his military advisor. I participated in all the talks with the Palestinians, the Jordanians, the Syrians. Wherever Rabin went to a meeting, I participated in the meeting with him as his closest advisor. And I think that we were very close to strike a deal with the Syrians and with the Palestinians.
[00:54:40] And we did not strike a deal with them. Because Rabin was assassinated. Now Barak tried again with the Syrians and the Palestinians. And there was a meeting at the beginning of 2000 between Clinton, President Clinton, and President Assad in Damascus.
[00:55:00] And the line that was the demarcation on the map was almost the same line that existed in the 4th of June 67. But Assad was not ready to accept it because there were still differences, minor ones, between the two lines, the line that Clinton offered and the line that Assad remembered as the line of 4th of June 1967.
[00:55:36] This is mainly because a dispute about no man's land areas that we, said that belong to us and the Syrians said belong to them. But mainly the dispute was over the Lake of Galilee, where Assad said that he swam in the lake when it was under the sovereignty of And President Clinton answered, you will be able to swim also now, he said, but not under the sovereign of, of, Syria, therefore he did not accept it.
[00:56:18] He did not accept it also, or mainly, because he was dying. He died a few months later. And he was highly terrified that if he will, conduct a peace with Israel, where the line is not exactly to the millimeter, former one, his son Bashar, which was going to, replace him, will
[00:56:52] see many difficulties. This is, you know, that, Bashar was the preference, was not the preference of Assad. The preference of Assad to replace him Bassel, that was killed in a car accident. And then, only then, after he was killed, Assad started to prepare Bashar to be the president. And He told that Bashar is not courageous enough, so he didn't want to do anything before he's going to die. With the Palestinians,
[00:57:29] we were in Camp David. I've been there. In July, 2000,
[00:57:34] Marc Bechman: Who was with you in Camp David during that time period?
[00:57:38] Danny Yatom: I have been in Camp David, there was an Israeli delegation of, of 10 people. I was one of them because I was then the chief of staff.
[00:57:55] I've been also in Camp David all along the days
[00:58:00] Marc Bechman: joining us.
[00:58:10] Danny Yatom: to talk about the agreement, you know, according to according to Oslo, at the beginning of the third year, we had to start dealing with the permanent status. For the first time, we dealt with the permanent status only in Camp David. And Arafat was afraid, one, because in the permanent status, he should make also concessions. Not only us, as it used to be until Camp David, because in, permanent, status, we have to deal with Jerusalem, with settlement, with, refugees, right of return, with, security arrangements, with borders.
[00:59:01] So he was highly afraid and he even said one day in my presence to President Clinton that if he will make any concessions over Jerusalem and Temple Mount, he will be assassinated. And of course we told him. Until now, the one that was assassinated was not you, it was Rabin. And, the main two issues that were under dispute are the right of return, that we rejected it totally, and, Jerusalem, where we were ready to make concessions.
[00:59:39] We were ready to make concessions and to go towards Arafat,
[00:59:44] Marc Bechman: Clingendael Institution, friend
[00:59:50] Danny Yatom: he wasn't involved. His two, comrades, Abu Alaa and Abu Mazen, they did their utmost in order to foil the, talks. They didn't want it. They were all sure that it is an American Israeli trap to trap them to the corner and to ask them to make all those concessions.
[01:00:17] Unfortunately, we lost the opportunity. We could, achieve peace with the Palestinians.
[01:00:24] Marc Bechman: you feel the Palestinians have a qualified leader today, within their ranks? it's just generally speaking that can help organize peace in the region and perhaps find this two state solution that you're talking about.
[01:00:42] Danny Yatom: The answer is yes. I don't want to point at someone from, obvious reasons. It is, the Palestinian right to choose their leader. No doubt that there are more than one. And you know, as we used to say, that cemeteries are full with people that did not have people to replace them.
[01:01:13] Marc Bechman: So when, you had just going back to Camp David with Arafat, you had mentioned to me that you were going to share some recently declassified information. is that pertaining specifically to Arafat stating that he didn't want to go as far as making peace because he was fearful of his life being taken?
[01:01:32] for
[01:01:37] Danny Yatom: book, so what I could reveal, I revealed in my book, but I wanted, to tell you, which is also not a secret anymore, that, before President Clinton went to see President Assad in Geneva at the beginning of, 2000, I think it was March 2000,
[01:02:04] the ambassador of the United States, of the United States to Israel, Martin Indyk. And myself, we demarcated the line together, and we went, to the points, and it was very, sensitive,
[01:02:21] Marc Bechman: So,
[01:02:22] Danny Yatom: and we came with an offer that if President Assad wanted, he could declare that he received back the line that used to be the border before 4th of June 1967.
[01:02:37] But as I told you previously, he was not ready to do it. because what we did, we drew the line, 90 percent of it or more exactly as the line that Assad, demanded. And we did some small changes of hundreds of meters, not more than that.
[01:03:01] In relation to what was perceived by Assad as the line, but he was not ready to accept it.
[01:03:08] Marc Bechman: Do you feel, Had your efforts during that Clinton era, the Barack and Clinton era, been successful? we might be in a better place today as it relates to the violence in the Middle East right now?
[01:03:23] Danny Yatom: No doubt that if we would have succeeded in achieving either a peace with Syria or a peace with the Palestinians, better a peace with the Palestinians because this is the main conflict and the main issue between us and the Arabs. It would have changed totally the Middle East. I really think yet that the Middle East can be wonderful place, a rich one, and a very advanced one.
[01:03:58] I also think that two people are needed in order to change totally the situation for the better. An Israeli leader and a Palestinian leader strong enough to being able to Make decisions and to bring about the cease of the conflict and the cease of the war between the Israelis and the Palestinians.
[01:04:25] Marc Bechman: Danny, you've given me a tremendous amount of your time and your insight today, and I appreciate it. Before we wrap it up, I have a tradition with the show. I ask all of my guests to come. The show, as you might recall, is named Some Future Day, and what I like to do is have my guests predict in the future what a particular, part of their world could look like.
[01:04:52] So if you're okay with it, I'd like to, challenge you today with you finishing the sentence, in some future day, Israel and Jews throughout the world will.
[01:05:06] Danny Yatom: Yes, but unfortunately, I'm too optimistic and I know, by the way, you know that in the Middle East there is no way to survive, but if you are an optimist otherwise you will cry all day long and nights as well. Due to what happened in the 7th of October and the war that, goes right now, and, the possibility that, there will be also a war in the northern part of the State of Israel, I I think that until what I am praying to, which is a peaceful Middle East, will happen, a long period of time is going to pass.
[01:05:51]