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Welcome to The Activate Change Podcast, where transformation is just a conversation away. Join Gabrielli LaChiara, renowned healer and creator of the LaChiara Method, as she guides individuals through powerful healing sessions. Alongside her, Chloë Faith Urban breaks down the frameworks and tools Gabrielli uses to bring deeper understanding to the profound process of healing. Each episode offers an intimate front-row seat to authentic, raw, and real personal breakthroughs, spiritual healing, and emotional support, allowing you to see yourself in the journeys of others. Experience the power and magic of the LaChiara Method, learn practical tools for self-growth, and unlock your potential to activate change in your own life. Whether you're seeking healing, inspiration, or a deeper understanding of yourself, this podcast is your gateway to a more rooted, resilient and radiant YOU.
To experience or learn more about the method go to: https://lachiaramethod.com
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Alternate Introduction For Variation (00:44)
Welcome to the Activate Change podcast where transformation is just a conversation away. Each episode offers an intimate front row seat to an authentic and unscripted personal healing session with renowned healer and creator of the Lakiara Method, Gabriele Lakiara. Our incredibly generous and courageous guests.
explore their genuine struggles, longings, and deepest desires in these sessions. And we, as listeners, have the honor and privilege to witness their sacred and profound healing journeys. As you listen, we invite you to receive as well.
Feeling into where the healing and insights that transpire might spark transformation in your own life. And stay tuned until the end because I, Chloe Faith Urban, will discuss the session and share a skill or framework that Gabriele used, which you can apply to your own personal healing. This podcast does contain adult language and content. So if you have little ones around you,
you may want to use headphones.
Gabrielli LaChiara (01:58)
you
Intro Brenna Part 2 (02:07)
Welcome back to this two part episode of our deep dive with Brenna. In our previous episode, we heard Brenna work through her doubts and fears about her relationship as she navigated through the terrain of family history, codependency, and finding self responsibility. Today, we pick back up with a session they did just a week and a half after the first session you heard last
After that first session, Brenna hit a significant wall of discomfort and some pretty intense feelings came up. She faced moments of wanting to sabotage her progress and she got caught up in her partner's patterns, losing her center and clarity about her own choices and actions. So they decided to do a follow -up session where Brenna navigated through the muckiness and regained her sense of self.
and reset into a much more grounded generative space. It's a really special session to listen to. And at the end, I speak into an all too familiar pattern that I think many of us can relate to. Have you ever fallen in love with someone's essence? You know, that magnetic fire in your belly swoon -worthy attraction that makes you think, my goodness, this must be my person. Only to find out that maybe
Just maybe you're more in love with the idea of them more than the reality. Well, stay tuned until after their session and get ready to laugh and cringe and hopefully relate because I share all about this challenging conundrum and some of my thoughts that might help you navigate what the blend of chemistry and safe human to human connection can look like in relationships of all kinds. Let's dive back
Gabrielli LaChiara (04:07)
go. Hi. Welcome to your Activate Change podcast session, part two.
Thank you for being here with me. I'm taking just a couple of breaths to center myself and I will invoke our space and I invite you to do the same as I can feel that you are. So taking this moment to find our own knowing muscles, the invitation for healing for you, your body being soul and spirit, earth embodiment, divine you.
And let's clear out any, I'm gonna call them today, distractors. Anything that wants to come in and pop around in circles and block you or distract you from knowing what you truly need from our time together. And activate change and generate healing immediately.
Brenna (04:46)
Thank
Okay.
Gabrielli LaChiara (05:05)
Mm. Now.
And I'm curious your intentions for this session.
Brenna (05:14)
Hmm
I feel like today...
I mean there's been a lot since the last session popping off or just coming into consciousness so...
Gabrielli LaChiara (05:33)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Right, that was huge. It's amazing to me because our last session in some ways didn't feel huge, right? Like I could feel this energetic rewiring that was going on, but it wasn't like major breakthroughs, huge emotion. Like it didn't do some sometimes where we can go, but I could feel that the invitation like almost gave you an adjustment, an energetic emotional adjustment, right? Into like...
Brenna (06:05)
Yeah.
Gabrielli LaChiara (06:06)
here's where the lens is. And then I'm curious where it went for you. And then also what still needs more of that attention and or what did what surfaced because of
Brenna (06:17)
I mean, I think that in tandem with whatever this full moon kind of represented, like there's a lot of sloughing off and I just don't know how to be in relationship with my beloved. Like, I don't know how to do
And in this moment, I don't want to fucking do
He's too hard. And then I feel too hard. And that's a really comfortable.
Gabrielli LaChiara (06:53)
Right.
Brenna (06:57)
sad place to
Gabrielli LaChiara (06:58)
Yeah, that makes so much sense that both like what's hard in the other person, but what I really heard and felt and rumbled in me is the parts of you that you don't like that are surfaced and or activated and or then maybe you're even following those parts of yourself and not liking who you're choosing to be in relation to his hardness, who he is. Yeah, yeah.
So let's go there. I want to just dive in. And my question is like, who the fuck, you know, who are you being? Who are you being? And who are you being?
Brenna (07:40)
I feel like I'm being him.
Gabrielli LaChiara (07:42)
Yes, beautiful awareness, right? You're being Him. Feel that, like you're being Him. What does that mean?
Brenna (07:46)
Yes, fucking sucks. Like, my God, this is how you live?
Gabrielli LaChiara (07:51)
Right, right.
Brenna (07:54)
Why wouldn't you want help? Like this is so painful.
Gabrielli LaChiara (07:59)
Mm.
What is the is? What's so painful?
Brenna (08:10)
Hmm.
Gabrielli LaChiara (08:12)
Like, is it just painful to be him because you're not him and then you really have no fucking power? Because really that's also happening. Like you're being him, but if that's what you're doing is mimicking, mirroring, patterning off of him and then you can't do anything about it because it's not fucking yours, that is painful. That's painful, right? And the is painful, what are you assuming or placing on him that's painful about being him? What are you projecting?
Brenna (08:29)
Yes. Yes.
I don't know that I quite.
understand that question in an embodied way. Like I mentally get it, but I
Gabrielli LaChiara (08:56)
Right, because you said, this is painful to be you, is what I was hearing. Like, if I'm being you, if that's true, and then this is what it feels like, it's fucking painful. And so I'm asking, what is painful? What is it that, what are you deciding about him?
that's really painful that you've decided and placed upon him as painful to be him.
I called it a projection, I don't know if that's the
Brenna (09:24)
Well, it does feel like, like you, as you're asking that question, it just feels like this, like rigid iron.
Gabrielli LaChiara (09:31)
Mm -hmm.
Brenna (09:34)
or steel. Just like, there's no space. Like an implosion, but like, not even a flexible implosion. just so hard. Like there's a hardness.
Gabrielli LaChiara (09:55)
Right? So let's feel that. All the ways in which you have decided that he's got a hardness, that he's imploded, that he's got maybe an inflexibility in that and no way out, whatever we might call that, that it's like frozen, not permeable, not moving, not however you might call it, not supple. And in any way in which because of those sensations that you have, that you have to deem it as his, you've decided that he's hard.
Brenna (09:58)
Mm.
Gabrielli LaChiara (10:24)
and difficult and miserable and should want change. So all of the judgments you're placing on him that he should want this to be different, why don't you want this to change? This is miserable, don't you know there's another way? What's all
Brenna (10:37)
Yes!
I mean, that all just feels so true, like all of the judgments. And like, I don't understand.
Gabrielli LaChiara (10:47)
Mm -hmm. Mm
Brenna (10:53)
how to be me.
Like how to just be in this and not make any of that wrong. Like where's the line where I like, hey, let's try this
Yeah, I just feel, we feel frozen. Like our relational space feels frozen.
Gabrielli LaChiara (11:25)
Right, and you're not being, you're not knowing what it means to be you, but you're also then being him. I'm trying to get it in my brain. like, okay, but, and I've probably done this too. Like, it's like, I don't know how to be me in relation to you. So I'm going to just dive in and try to be you so I can figure you out. Cause then maybe I'll figure me out if I understand you better or if I know what's going on, maybe I can get in there and do something that's actually going to allow me to be me. Right. It's all contingencies like,
Brenna (11:33)
Ew!
Gabrielli LaChiara (11:51)
Is it, is being you easier? Is it the way in? Is it the way to figure out how to be me? Like, do I learn something? Do I gain something by trying to get in your reality so intimately? And, or am I trying to shift you so that I have permission to be me? And that gives me the biggest zing of like, how much are you trying to control him so that you can be free? And are you willing to take steps, more steps, and not controlling him in order to be you?
Brenna (12:05)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Yeah, how?
Gabrielli LaChiara (12:22)
And have you ever had the experience of someone trying to control you in order for them to be free or feel better? Mm -hmm. Yeah. So can we release that injury recall? I can't imagine you liked that.
Brenna (12:34)
Yep.
Bye.
Gabrielli LaChiara (12:42)
Right. Yeah. And you know, the mega question is, are you doing all that because you just don't want to face the reality that you started out with, which is like, maybe this relationship is just too hard for you, you know, and we could say he's too hard, but it's what I really heard is it's too hard for you. Like you're not taking, you're not knowing yourself or being in yourself in a way that you love and admire inside of this relationship. So is it that you can't be you in this relationship and therefore there isn't a way to be here safely to be you?
you know, we've been on packing for months at this point, if not years, like stop trying to make him different in order for you to be okay. And this leaks in, you know, understandably, especially when there's addiction under the surface, but I think it does anyway in intimacy. Right. And so what are you refusing to know, BC or receive as you that if you did, you'd actually be free. And what does that even fucking mean? So what are you refusing to know BC
Brenna (13:20)
Mm.
Gabrielli LaChiara (13:41)
perceive as you in this dynamic? What are you refusing?
to know, be, perceive and receive as you.
Brenna (14:02)
I just feel this like
Gabrielli LaChiara (14:05)
Mm -hmm. Let's go there. Where are you,
Brenna (14:15)
it feels like my whole like under mouth back of throat.
Gabrielli LaChiara (14:24)
So what is this relationship proving to yourself?
What is the relationship proving to yourself? Like you're in this contraction. What is it giving evidence to that maybe is already deep in your identity?
What's the relationship proving to you about
Brenna (15:02)
That is.
I don't actually know how to be me.
Gabrielli LaChiara (15:14)
to all of the conclusions, decisions and experiences that I've already told you that you don't know how to be you in any way in which this relationship is bashing that in your face and opening you up to saying, see, it's true. See Brenna, you don't know how to be you. See, here's just one more situation proving that you're failing at being you because you don't know how to do
Brenna (15:40)
or there's like a game when I do.
Gabrielli LaChiara (15:43)
or there's consequence, what does that mean, or pain? Tell me about that pain.
Brenna (15:47)
Like... Like yesterday. I did nothing wrong.
and shit still hit the fan.
like doing something for me still.
I still feel like I'm on egg shells.
Gabrielli LaChiara (16:14)
Yeah, I'm hearing the words, I'm not trustworthy. Can we feel that together? Because I'm really hearing those words in a different way than I have with you before and I can feel your tears. So just tell me if you need to breathe more into it. I don't want to rush you. So take some space here.
Yesterday's example like here you were taking care of yourself in simple ways doing nothing wrong and shit hit the fan anyway
that say about you? Or what have you decided that says about
Behind the belly button is where I'm feeling it. And maybe a tiny bit up.
Brenna (17:06)
feel it
Gabrielli LaChiara (17:07)
Yeah, go a little under where you think you're feeling it. See if we can track it into, there you go. Thank you. So much sensation. Go ahead there.
Brenna (17:22)
It's nauseating.
Gabrielli LaChiara (17:23)
Mm -hmm. Say more.
Brenna (17:32)
to feel
someone else thinks I'm untrustworthy.
Gabrielli LaChiara (17:39)
Yeah.
Brenna (17:41)
Not even because I've given them any reason, just because that's... that's their shit.
So it's like, why be me? Why not just be someone else or be half of me and avoid the fight or the discomfort or the like shit that's gonna come from it?
It was here to.
Gabrielli LaChiara (18:07)
Are you of... sorry, say that
Brenna (18:11)
It was easier to people please.
Gabrielli LaChiara (18:14)
huh. Is that true?
Brenna (18:17)
No, but at some point it felt safer so it feels like a... Like I'm detangling that.
Gabrielli LaChiara (18:25)
Yeah, right. The urge to people, please. And the habit to people, please. And in this case, maybe that makes sense to me. Like when we're being empathic to others, if we're trying to people, please, we want to understand them. So we're going to get in there and try to figure out what's going on so we can do just the right thing to prevent the rejection or the judgment of you or the slamming of you or the, in this case, yeah, right.
Brenna (18:48)
and my character.
Like, fuck you, I've never given you any reason.
to think that.
Gabrielli LaChiara (19:07)
Right. Right. It's so fucking hard to live in someone else's reality of you.
Brenna (19:15)
Mm -hmm.
Gabrielli LaChiara (19:16)
Yeah. Right. And in this case that you've, you're deemed untrustworthy or unsafe in some way. And that kind of no way out energy of like, then what do do? Do you fight with that? Do you try to prove it? Do you try to give evidence? Do you squirrel around in a million pieces? Do you apologize? Do you own shit that wasn't even yours? Like how do you detangle from somebody else's perspective that you're untrustworthy?
And when did you or did you decide yourself that you're just not trustworthy being you, that you don't know yourself well enough anyway, and if you just be you, you're only going to find that the world is going to actually hate you and you won't get the intimacy that you want or not the world, but that the beloved, the most intimate, that there isn't that for you.
I hear nobody will want me. If I'm just being me, I'll just, I'll end up alone or something like that's the storyline that's kicking in. Let's see what's true or not true for you. Activate change and generate healing immediately.
Yeah, let's just clear anything that blocks us from seeing this clearly so that you know exactly the rumble, the root that's being rumbled awake so that you know exactly how to manage that place in yourself that has this, because I know there's all kinds of other places in you that are confident and healthy and alive and intimate and strong, right? But there's this place in here that like the deepest current related to romantic.
Romantic intimacy, longevity, long -term partnership commitment, devotion has a rumble in it that we're standing on that is just so shaky ground and unstable. So let's see it. you willing to really peer in and see everything here that is in you for the taking that you know exactly what you need in order to show up for yourself knowing that this exists and activate change and generate healing immediately? We may never fix this particular part of you. It's
Brenna (21:08)
Thank you.
Gabrielli LaChiara (21:20)
It may not be wrong that you have this part. Don't we all have some part that's injured by life? know, the question is like, what does that mean in this relationship? What does that mean for you? How do you take care of this part of yourself with this particular person? Does this give you steps towards like, wait, I can't keep myself safe with this person. So I need to do something different. What's here, right? So are you willing to see and know who you are? Cause this is also part of you. What if you decided that it's only you if it's like the perfect parts of you.
and are you willing to know all the parts of you so that you know what kind of intimacy works for you and how to take care of yourself with people that when they're close to us like this, they can step all over our pain. It's easy. We can do it to them too. And activate change and generate healing and immediately clearing through anything that blocks us from seeing and knowing all the parts of you that are part of intimacy, all of them. All of the beautiful, amazing, special conscious parts, all of the unconscious, hurt, injured.
childlike parts, also just any of them, the abused parts, all the parts that could be in here, their own addictive parts and your relationship to other people's addictions and activate change and generate healing immediately. So truth, Brenna, if you're not parting and piecing yourself into either good or bad, then what is the wholeness? Who are you in intimacy and in this relationship? Who are
Brenna (22:55)
I don't
Gabrielli LaChiara (22:57)
Right. And are you willing to find out? And are you willing to know yourself so well that you know everything you're offering, the parts that are hard, the parts that are amazing, all the things in between, that you're saying, here's who I am in this relationship to beloved, so that you can see a clear picture of who you are, therefore can know who or what kind of intimacy you're even asking for that takes care of you?
Brenna (23:00)
Mm -hmm.
Gabrielli LaChiara (23:26)
Not what works for them, not what changes them to cover up your hard spots, not what changes them to make you feel better. You know, not what all the ways in which you might be twisting someone else or trying to twist someone else into making you feel better about yourself versus like, wow, this is who I am. Therefore, this is what I need or not. And activate change and generate healing. And media that's clear out all the parts of him that don't belong here. Commanding your body and being to release everything that belongs to him and that belongs to addiction and everything.
Brenna (23:54)
Ugh.
Gabrielli LaChiara (23:55)
Everything exactly. You had a couple like, ugh, on the addiction word. So what is addiction turning you into? Activate change and generate healing immediately.
Brenna (24:09)
Just you asked the question and was like, a monster. A fucking monster.
Gabrielli LaChiara (24:12)
Yeah. Right.
Yeah, that feels true.
Brenna (24:20)
Because how else am I supposed to interface with
Gabrielli LaChiara (24:28)
and activate change and generate healing immediately.
Brenna (24:31)
I step into the Monsters Inc costume.
Gabrielli LaChiara (24:36)
The Monsters Inc.
Brenna (24:41)
Okay.
Gabrielli LaChiara (24:42)
Yeah. In the realm of the hungry ghost, there's a book written, a Buddhist book written called In the Realm of the Hungry Ghost, and it feels like a hungry ghost addiction. It feels like some people live just fine with others who are in addiction or not. It's like all kinds of realities, but then there's some of us where that hungry ghost just eats us alive. And I think you do need to know your limits. You do need to know what you can live with safely that's about you and where that line is.
you know, so that you're not losing yourself to addiction and how much your work is to detangle that and stand up and be like, hey, I can do this. You can have what I'm calling addiction. You might not even call it that, but you can have what I consider to be addiction. And I can stand in my pride of who I am and be messy, but never get eaten by that monster and never become that monster, right? Or I can't. And whatever's presented to me is my limitation, not even yours. It's like, I can't, I have to say at some point, I just can't do it. I'm falling
Brenna (25:40)
Mm -hmm.
Gabrielli LaChiara (25:41)
and I'm hurting myself, you know, in this relationship. So I think that's the tender line you've been standing on. It's like, how much is it my work to get good at being able to be with someone else's what I'm calling addiction, what looks like addiction to me, what I would define as addiction? Like, how much is that me having to get better at being me and more embodied and stronger and more capable? And like, how much is that me just being delusional about what I can handle and what's safe for me and what's healthy for me?
and activate change and generate healing immediately.
Brenna (26:13)
Yeah.
Gabrielli LaChiara (26:13)
And are you really willing to know?
Brenna (26:20)
I don't know. Yes. I think I have to.
Gabrielli LaChiara (26:24)
Yeah. Well, I think if you're ever going to take a stand for something different, you know, either you're going to get good at this and you'll be like, wow, I did something and I'm just okay with what this reality is, right? I'm thriving. Or at some point you're going to take a stand and say, here's my line, here's my boundary because I can't, I'm getting unhealthy over and over and over again in ways that feels dangerous to me personally in terms of what I'm doing. It's not even, I can define you or
But here's the environment I need to be in in order to be thriving or safe or healthy or any of whatever that goal is, right? If you go there, you need to know it, you know, because I think if you go there and then come back off that edge and go there and come back off that edge, then I think you're going to just tip yourself into more. My experience with people is that we just tip into more self -hatred, right? Because then we decide that we asked something we shouldn't have asked and then we want to recoil it and then we kind of brush it off and then it goes away. And then we like,
spiral back into the same place. So I think the work you're doing, which I'm seeing, is you are unwinding and unspiring so that you know you enough to say, all of the pieces of me are here, and this is who I am. What kind of relationship steps need to be happening in order for you to stay healthy and what is, right? And it's not all or nothing to him either, but it's like, what is that? What is it that needs to happen that's keeping you from?
Brenna (27:43)
Mm -hmm.
Gabrielli LaChiara (27:52)
you know, really showing up for yourself. Like, you did nothing wrong yesterday. How did you even become a part of a drama then? Like, where were you apologizing before you even did anything wrong? Where were you worried and, you know, saying, my gosh, I'm so, you know, like, I don't know, was that in there? You know, was there? And I know we texted some, so I know there's some of it, but like, where did you ditch yourself and try to make him okay when it was never even required to begin with, right? All of those sassy, edgy,
Brenna (27:55)
Mm -hmm.
Gabrielli LaChiara (28:21)
dynamics that we do when we're trying really hard not to be the brunt of somebody else's anger or judgment.
And can he be angry and judgmental and scared? When is it yours to control?
Brenna (28:35)
No. I don't know how to not control it yet. I would like to not control it
Gabrielli LaChiara (28:39)
Yeah. Yeah. And you'll have urges to control it. I mean, that's not wrong.
So we're not saying don't have any urges to control it. Have the urges and then take micro steps to get out of the dynamic enough to find yourself so that you can see what that looks like, right? Yeah. So all of the urges and cravings to control him so that you're not the brunt of his negativity or his judgment of you or his fear in particular or his grief about people and activate change and generate healing immediately in any way in which you're taking on the program.
his movie that you're just gonna eventually be the person who does something, some big betrayal to him, and are you willing to clear all the grids of betrayal that are activated? Yeah. So it's a release. All the grids construct structures, forms, beliefs, and systems of betrayal that are operating between you, that are making you try to prove you'll never betray him, and he's still looking for where you are, or vice versa. And clearing any way in which your primal brain decided that that's actually a really safe thing to do, because it's not.
because it's making a huge mess of your world. Activate chain to generate healing immediately. If you're trying to prove to him that you're worthy because you'll never betray him, are you willing to stop doing that? Or at least take the steps and to stop doing that? Yeah, because it doesn't seem like it works. Yeah.
Brenna (30:00)
yeah.
It doesn't, and like he thinks it's a betrayal anyway.
Gabrielli LaChiara (30:09)
Right, right, maybe he's going to assess betrayal anyway. Unactivate chain to generate healing immediately. And are you willing to see how he operates to give him enough space to see how much negativity he lives in and how much judgment of view he lives in and what he likes or doesn't like and how scared he really is so that you can actually see for real who he is and determine for yourself what's me trying to control him causing issues and what's him just being who he is. I don't know you can know who you want to be with if you're not letting yourself know who he is separate from you.
Brenna (30:39)
Yep. Yep. -huh.
Gabrielli LaChiara (30:39)
So you need both things, right? You need to get separate for your own safety, but also for your safety with Him to be able to say, that's just this person doing their thing, right? That's who they are, with or without me. Activate change, regenerate healing, immediately. That feels different.
Brenna (30:55)
What if I don't like him?
Gabrielli LaChiara (30:57)
Yeah. What if you don't like
And are you avoiding that? Yeah. Your truth that maybe you just don't like the way he behaves. Yeah. Right. Would you be willing to leave if you really just don't like him?
Brenna (31:06)
I think that's I'm refusing and avoiding.
Hmph.
Gabrielli LaChiara (31:21)
Yeah, you might have to. I mean, if you really don't like him and you look up and say, wow, no matter what I do, I can leave him alone. Yes, there's like these loving parts, but I just don't like him. He's not kind enough or he's not nice enough or he's not healthy enough, you know, in some way. I don't even know if healthy is the right word. It feels kind. It feels like he's maybe he's just edgy and mean and distant and cold and icy too often. And is that what you're signing on for for the rest of your life?
And does it give him a chance to change it if you don't stand up for yourself?
Brenna (31:59)
That's a good question.
Gabrielli LaChiara (31:59)
Not really, right? I mean, I don't think it does. Because I don't think it, unless you have the clarity to say, I want to live in an environment like this, you know, like this is what I need. And that's different than a healthy amount of moods that anybody might have, right? Like people can get moody. But this is, if you say to me, I don't like him because 90 % of the time I'm walking on eggshells and the environment is cold and I have to beg for connection. Or if I don't make all the right moves, it doesn't happen or.
If I just step back, he's not really reaching out to me. He's not like, I'm not, we're not having intimacy. Then that's a question. Like, do we ask the relationship to do the work of finding more intimacy? Do we say, hey, I want more intimacy. I want it differently. I need different communication, different connection. Do we put a bit out? I call them bids, you know, and say like, can we do this? Sure. If he says no, he says no. If he, seems to say yes, but not do it with you is what I've heard in the past, right?
So there's all the yeses, sure I'll do that, but then nothing happens. So the question is, is there some next step you need to take to take a stand to say like, if this relationship is gonna work, needs to, for me personally, I need to have the environment between us healthier, like I need or kinder or more generous or less judgmental or whatever the words would be, right? That feels to me like a really good next step of knowing who you are.
Because when it's not like that, you're going down rabbit holes that are making you unsafe and turning you into monsters. And we can blame that on addiction, but we can also say that's just, the relationship is not operating consciously enough for you to be able to take care of yourself. If it never will, you're not taking care of yourself. Why would you stay? mean, we know why you'd stay, but.
because we all want to stay, right? You wouldn't be this far into it if you didn't want to stay, but would you be able to get conscious enough to say, the environment is unsafe for me? We have chemistry, we have the love that's like chemistry and divinity and like essence, you know? And to me, that's there for you too. There's like this chemical, experiential, essence -driven love that when you make the connection, it's like, wow, that feels so good. And I can see it in you. And I've seen it in the two of you, like where there's something that plugs in that's so beautiful.
We need that. We also need safe human love, conditions and safety for both people. And nobody's the same. So when you get into a loving relationship with a lot of that chemistry, a lot of essence, you have to figure out whether or not it's safe in the physical form too. And so what you're doing now is the physical forms of love. It's like human physical forms of love that include both people that create safety for two people. Can you do that or not? If you can't create conditions that are safe in love, that are loving,
Brenna (34:14)
Mm -hmm.
Gabrielli LaChiara (34:34)
whatever loving means to both of you, then you only have half of the equation. It's not enough. You'll get hurt over and over and over again or someone will get hurt. If you can create conditions that are safe, great. Even if they're a work in progress, great. If they're making progress, that's one thing, But those, I think you need both elements and a lot of people bargain one or the other. And a lot of times we were like, but this is so good over here, so I want it. And then sometimes it's really safe here too, but then it's...
Brenna (34:46)
Mm -hmm.
Gabrielli LaChiara (35:03)
not consistent enough for one or two of the people.
Brenna (35:07)
Mm -hmm.
Gabrielli LaChiara (35:08)
And he might say the same. He might say some of the things you're doing are making him feel unsafe all the time. So don't we want to know, right? What I feel like your step is to say, want the conditions between us to feel loving in a way that I want to help define and I want you to define with me so that we create agreements around what it means to be loving in human form together in the day to day. Feels required.
Brenna (35:13)
Mm.
Gabrielli LaChiara (35:34)
And if you can't get there, we're gonna call that to the table. But if you really can't change that, you can't change that. You have to know your limits too. And I can just know from talking to you in the best. I know you're willing to have that conversation. We've already had that agreement. Yeah, so let's clear out anything that blocks you from unfreezing so that you can take a next step. Not just inside you to manage you better around him, not to just de -trigger yourself, not to just desensitize yourself to some of the dynamics.
Brenna (35:49)
Mm hmm.
Gabrielli LaChiara (36:03)
All those things are helpful and good too, but also to include yourself in the relationship. To fully include yourself. I want change. Here's what it looks like. Here's what I'm willing to do. I'm going to start making that change. I'm going to adopt whether it's like, I'm going to adopt a dialogue pattern and just do it, whether you do it or not with me. I'm going to put the book on the table. I'm going to listen to these audio recordings over dinner. I'm making a commitment to change something because I want the conditions between us to be more effective and loving and kind,
So, you know, if he just says, way, I don't want to do any of that, well, you have a huge, huge decision on the plate, Yeah. So let's clear all that, activate change and generate healing immediately. Let's see how your body's feeling.
Brenna (36:47)
Like.
That's the thing, he never says no way. But we also
do anything to change the conditions.
Gabrielli LaChiara (37:06)
Is there something you could do differently in
And by the way, I love that he says yes to that. You know, that there is a part of him that wants that too. And again, we don't know his whole side. Like he might say he really wants that in ways that he's not telling you would help him to feel safer, right? We just don't know what he's saying, what he would be saying. Is there something you could do differently to interrupt the pattern of getting a yes, but that not making any change?
Brenna (37:35)
I think before I ask for the yes or no to also then have the plan.
Gabrielli LaChiara (37:40)
Mm -hmm. To propose a plan. Not to control a plan, but to give one.
Brenna (37:43)
Yeah, like, right, here's these things.
Gabrielli LaChiara (37:49)
Mm -hmm. Great. Love
Brenna (37:52)
Here's what I'm going to do. Are you willing to do this with me? This I'm going to do regardless.
Gabrielli LaChiara (37:58)
Yeah, are you willing to make that change in communication or the change in your dialogue patterns or anything? Are you willing to change them regardless of whether or not he does? At this point, good. So that's perfect. So the difference is that you're going to make a change that affects the relationship consciously with him by saying, I'm going to start using this dialogue strategy that I'm going to learn. listening to these podcasts or reading these books and I'm just going to start doing it. And if you'd rather do a different one, tell me if you want to do it with me, jump on. Here's a way you can jump on. I'm going to set aside Thursday night.
for us to even spend an hour reading this book together, I'll read it aloud to you if you want. We can like light some candles and get out the massage oil and you know, read a chapter, whatever. Like it doesn't have to be hard, right? It could be beautiful and sweet and intimate. So like any change that you can make to say, I'm committed, so I'm making a change, will you come with? Versus I'd like to make this change, yes, I wanna make it too. And then waiting for him to make a move or to agree to something or to come up with something. Love that, that feels different. And then knowing that if he doesn't,
Brenna (38:45)
Mm -hmm.
Gabrielli LaChiara (38:58)
You can stick with it, you know, unlocking so that you're not then like plummeting because he's not doing it. Unactivate change and generate healing immediately. Let's see what else you might need here. This feels full for today. Like we came through a very emotional.
Brenna (39:02)
Okay.
Gabrielli LaChiara (39:16)
conundrum.
and then to a next clear step of Brenna. Because Brenna, what I do know about you is that you like to take steps and you take them. That you're the person who is like, if you want change in your body, you'll do the detox and you'll do everything it takes to get there. If you want something different to happen, you'll follow the protocols. So there's, we know you know how to do that and that is you being you. To pick a protocol and follow it is Brenna. So in a way that also realigns you to being like, I know who I am and I'm going to keep being me, even if you don't choose to do it with me,
Yeah. So let's ignite and invoke that you get to choose you and that you get to do what you would do if this was a solo journey and it wasn't about him. You would pick some way of healing this and you would follow the strategies even if they were fucking uncomfortable and hard and you'd stick with the protocols that you picked because they would feel right to you and you would do the work to get there. And so let's clear anything that blocks you from taking yet another step here in what you want for the relationship in terms of how you communicate in this relationship, how you show up for it.
what it means between you, the kindnesses that you're willing to like invoke and be a part of, your own how whatever protocol has for establishing boundaries when things are not kind or not respectful and being able to really stand in your personal agreements to yourself on how you wanna live the culture you wanna live in, in relationship and activate change and generate healing.
Yeah, let's see if there's anything else you need.
Brenna (41:00)
Hmm.
I'm not entirely sure what I'm feeling physically, but like I don't know if it's just like...
newness and space or if it's like...rippin'.
Gabrielli LaChiara (41:15)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Well, I feel some fear in that how easy it is for you to take a step and then have it be controlled by him again. So I think let's just stay on it to help you figure out how to do that and keep resetting because I think it needs not, it's not like you're just going to take these steps if you were solo and get through whatever comes up. It's you're going to take them and he's going to have reactions of some sort, good, bad, or otherwise. And those are going to affect you.
And we know that there's the tendency for that monster to kick in and to end up imploding some way on your own or taking on too much of his stuff or trying to read him hypervigilantly, read every move he's making and to get snagged in there. So it does feel like there's still whatever you need for support to keep yourself on track and to know that you'll fall off and come back and fall off and come back. And that's just part of the work. And I think it's scary. You're going to take another stand. You're going to say, I want something different.
I want you and I want it different. I want to do this part of the relationship differently. And thankfully, again, he said yes before, but it doesn't mean it won't be. That it's going to be easy to just get him to say yes again and then to actually do something. You don't have that experience yet.
Brenna (42:30)
Okay.
Right.
Gabrielli LaChiara (42:37)
Yeah, so it makes sense. think there should be some, it's a healthy amount of churning probably in the fear of like, what does this really mean and can I do it? And I just want to say if you can't do it and you try it over and over, that's also information. Like you just can't do it. And if this partner's not gonna do it with you and you can't do it by yourself to create the culture shift inside yourself in the relationship, that's important to know. We wanna know your limits.
Brenna (43:01)
Mm -hmm.
Gabrielli LaChiara (43:05)
because you are a badass in your ability to discipline yourself. Like if you somehow can't get there, there's something about that.
Brenna (43:09)
Mm
Mm
Gabrielli LaChiara (43:18)
So it comes back to are you willing to know yourself well enough to know what you need as you take these steps and to give yourself the support, the conditions, the care around all the choices you're making. Good. And activate change and generate healing immediately. that feels better. Yeah.
Brenna (43:33)
Mm -hmm.
Gabrielli LaChiara (43:36)
Okay. I'm sure they'll be a part
Brenna (43:40)
I'm sure there will be.
Gabrielli LaChiara (43:42)
Part 3 of 3 ,551 on this topic.
This is a lifelong one for most of us. I appreciate your journey.
And you're making a ton of progress, and I've seen it. And you really are handling these moments differently and coming through. And you really are knowing how to reset yourself better, and not spin out for as long and not take some of these behaviors as seriously. And you really are, I think, at a huge precipice of the changes that we talked about last time. And you're trying to stay conscious and keep going. And that's amazing. So really appreciate you.
Brenna (44:30)
Thank you.
Chloe's Comments Brenna Part One (44:36)
Yes, so good. Thank you again, Brenna, for your generosity and sharing yourself with us in the second part of this episode. And I could just so freaking relate to all of it. Seriously, there are so many things in this particular session that were shivery yes moments for me. And one of the biggest that I wanted to speak about now
was what Gabriele said around essence -driven love and human body -to -body safe love, and how a lot of us bargain and settle for either the safety or the chemistry, but not both. I know I certainly have. And before I dive in all the way here, I wanna be clear that all I'm about to say and share
is just inspired by the session and not a comment about Brenna, what she should or shouldn't do, or any judgment whatsoever about the relationship she finds herself in. All that I'm about to share is inspired by two sentences Gabriele said in the session, and they just really sparked in me that soul speak, yes, I wanna share about this. So here I am.
So I guess my first question is, have you ever fallen in love with someone's essence? This could be romantic or otherwise, although for now I'm going to speak in romantic terms, but it could be with a friend, a teacher, or someone else in your life that you love or have loved or been close to in the past or present.
So you're falling in love. The chemistry is fire. The attraction is magnetic. Maybe they're affectionate and you love that. The sex is the best you've ever had. And they know just the right thing to say to make you swoon with delight. And you're thinking to yourself, this must be my person. How could this not be my person if everything is so good here?
So despite maybe a little inkling of doubt underneath, you go for it. You're all freaking in. So now you find yourself in a relationship with this person and they're not calling you back. But when they do finally call you back and you see each other, you have another amazing juicy date and everything is better again. And as you go, maybe they start to make super judgy or mean comments about your body.
or how you're so freaking disgusting when you chew with your mouth open. Or they talk bad about you to their friends behind your back. Or maybe even put you down in front of their friends with you there. Maybe they're drinking until they're sloppy drunk most nights. Or maybe they're even freaking cheating. Just that one time,
Maybe it shows up as doing a line or two every night or on the weekends. And that's just not that horrible,
Or maybe, someone walked in on them at work watching porn. But that's not that big of a deal, right? No, no, no, not that big of a deal. I could go on and on and on, and the list of excuses can go on and on and on as well. I've certainly frickin' made them. Holy moly. The kind of excuses I've made in my head.
for my past partners are kind of extraordinary when I step back and really look at it. The reality is we can live into our fantasies of what someone's capable of or project onto them every romantic movie character you've ever fallen in love with until the cows come home. But let's get real for a second. Who are they being?
in your day -to -day relationship? Are they safe for you to be around? Do they have your best interest at heart? Do you know they really aren't out to hurt you, even if sometimes what they do does hurt?
Do they have the capacity to show up for the hard moments? And do they want to do the work required to be in a healthy, thriving, truly loving partnership with you? I have a feeling if you're listening to this podcast, that's something that you really want. From our perspective, for a relationship to really thrive, to be happy and truly fulfilling,
You need the attraction, the essence, the chemistry, and you need safe human love too.
like safe in real time, in the physical human realm, like where the actual conditions in the relationship are physically and emotionally safe, and not only safe in general, but that's safe for you. A lot of times we can bargain. We either take the safety or the chemistry, but not both. And this is where we can get stuck in some of the diciest
most challenging relationships. I want to be clear though, I'm by no means saying that if you're listening and you're like, my God, I chose safety or I chose chemistry and because of that my relationship is now doomed forever. No, that is not at all what I'm saying. But it can be helpful to see clearly what you are dealing with to begin to see how you can relate to yourself
and the relationship differently. With that awareness, you then have the opportunity to reflect inwards and ask yourself what you need or what you want in the relationship and communicate that to your partner. You can begin to examine for yourself, is this truly a safe situation?
And would I set my best friend up with this person? And just because someone else might be able to handle what's going on, can I? And do I even want to? If I were truly valuing, honoring, and respecting myself, what would I ask for? What would I need, want, or desire? And am I willing to ask for
There are so many aspects to this that are at play. There's self -worth and shame and doubt and confusion and codependency and fear and learn patterns around intimacy and what our own threshold is for safety or comfort. My freaking goodness, I could go on and on and on about this forever. But I'll keep it to just this one funny personal story about my partner and our first
On my first date with my amazing partner I've now been with for four years. At the end, I was like, yeah, no, next, I'm good. Not my person. Even though we had an amazing seven hour beach date where we didn't stop talking. Even though we had so much in common and our values were aligned on so many levels. Even though I deeply respected what he did for work.
and how he showed up so big for a mission greater than himself. The reality was, because of my history, because of my wiring for what chemistry was, I was like, yeah, he's attractive, but I'm not attracted to him. I didn't feel that fire in my belly. I can't get enough attraction. That's fireworks and sparklers and all the things. So many of the things that I had felt.
other times. So I thought to myself, yeah, that must mean that this person isn't right for me. And I was about to walk away. But thank you to my amazing best friend, Here we are four years later. She was pretty adamant that maybe I shouldn't write him off so quickly.
What I realized was I wasn't quote unquote attracted to him because he...
because he wasn't actively an addiction. Like seriously, because he wasn't an addict, I wasn't attracted to him. He was someone who's done a lot of work on himself and there wasn't dysfunction and addiction just lurking around the edges. He was healthier than anyone I'd ever actually fallen for and I didn't know how to work with that new and different kind of feeling.
With that friendly nudge, I went out on our second date and then a third. And much to my surprise, the chemistry began to grow and the attraction began to grow
And months later, I realized that this was what it felt like to have both things, chemistry, fireworks, attraction, and safe human to human, body to body love. It was so unfamiliar, I couldn't even recognize it. And it was literally right in front of me.
That doesn't mean it hasn't taken work. That doesn't mean that it didn't scare me so much to open my heart up after a seriously heartbreaking divorce. It doesn't mean that my traumas and distortions haven't made me feel like he's unsafe at times, but in reality, he actually really is. It doesn't mean that he's perfect or I'm perfect.
or that I don't have fears or projections or fantasies about who he is that have been debunked or shifted over the years. But it has been an opportunity to really clean up my side of the street.
It's been a relationship that has given me the safety and the fire to push me beyond my comfort zone in the best of ways. And has been safe enough for me to say things out loud that I never thought I would. About what I wanted, needed or desired. And that has been quite a different experience for me. And for that I am so freaking grateful. And let me tell
It has taken a huge amount of work to get here and a lot of deep inward looking and committing to myself that I was going to break the cycle in my life of ending up in relationships that were either physically and emotionally safe but lacked the chemistry. Although as I'm sharing all of this, I'm realizing maybe those relationships weren't lacking chemistry or attraction, but maybe I didn't know at the time how to ask the question I asked
million frickin times at the beginning of my relationship with Bay, which was what if attraction isn't what I think it is? What else could it be? Who knows where that would have gotten me in my younger years? But that's for another day. And then the more commonplace I found myself in was ending up in relationships that were juicy and fiery and full of chemistry.
but in the end were truly not safe for me in many different ways, either emotionally, physically, or otherwise. Those were the relationships I found myself in more often, with the addicts, with the assholes, with the cheaters, the gaslighters, the manipulators. My love life was a real fucking shit show.
And I got myself into some pretty harmful, dicey, and awful relationships that I'm still unpacking and healing from at my own pace and timing as we speak. The point is, if you're feeling stuck in this dichotomy, or if you're struggling with relationships and not sure what might be off, I wonder, might this dynamic be at play? And as you're listening to all of this,
I wonder what it's bringing up for
Do you have a relationship or relationships in your life, romantic or otherwise, that have both chemistry and safety? If so, I invite you to take a moment and bring one of those relationships into your consciousness.
What does that feel like in your body if you imagine the experience of being with that person? What sensations arise in your body? What are your shoulders doing? And what does your belly feel
And if you're sitting there scanning your life and you feel like maybe you don't have that, I invite you to imagine what that might feel like to have the safety and the chemistry at the same time. What lights up in you or flattens? What arises? What does it feel like in your body?
If you're anything like me, what might have come up five years ago would feel like flat, bland, dry bread that is uninteresting and not for you. And if that is the case, that's not wrong at all and just gives you information to work with. And maybe it lights you
It's what you're longing for more than anything, but you're scared or you wonder, does that even freaking exist?
All of it is good information for you to have, to sit with, to get curious about, to journal with, to meditate on.
And let's just clear anything that that little exercise might have brought up for you that isn't generative for you at this moment and activate change and generate healing and media.
In these last two episodes, I've gone deep into some of these relational aspects in life. And it feels important because it's pretty hard to be human and not be in relationship with others. It's my hope for you and for all of us that we can continue to be curious for ourselves about what it might look like to have safety and chemistry in our relationships. And if we don't have
what it might take to work with that awareness and make choices, requests, or boundaries in those relationships if it feels safe or generative for you to do so. And I just want to mention that this episode really is about relationships that you have a choice in. You don't really have a choice in who your family is or who your boss might be or who your colleagues are.
Those are kind of different and certainly who your in -laws are, right? So what I'm really speaking about are the relationships that you get to choose, that you can say yes or no to, that you can walk away from if you need to. These are the relationships that I'm talking
I'm so looking forward to our next episode. It's been such a joy to be with you here today and I'm sending you so much
Chloe's Convo About Jake's Episode (1:01:12)
saying a huge thank you to Allie Halpert, who's the amazing musician who wrote the songs that you hear in this podcast. We have had the privilege to be able to sing some of Allie's songs in our retreats and workshops, and they've been really powerful additions to our work with people. You can hear more of Allie's music and check out more about Allie on Allie's website, Allie Halpert.
That's A -L -Y -H -A -L -P -E -R -T dot com.