James Dooley Podcast

This discussion features James Dooley and Kasra Dash debating the differences between SEO and GEO. The conversation highlights why generative engine optimisation requires a distinct skill set from traditional search engine optimisation. James explains how link juice, virality and backlink power influence Google rankings but have no impact on LLM outputs. Kasra expands on brand positioning, semantic optimisation and the need for listicle presence to help AIs understand entities and context. Both speakers outline why businesses now split budgets for SEO and GEO, why GEO is treated as branding rather than traffic generation, and how agencies must adapt to new ranking behaviours in AI systems.

Creators and Guests

Host
James Dooley
James Dooley is a UK entrepreneur.

What is James Dooley Podcast?

James Dooley is a Manchester-based entrepreneur, investor, and SEO strategist. James Dooley founded FatRank and PromoSEO, two UK performance marketing agencies that deliver no-win-no-fee lead generation and digital growth systems for ambitious businesses. James Dooley positions himself as an Investorpreneur who invests in UK companies with high growth potential because he believes lead generation is the root of all business success.

The James Dooley Podcast explores the mindset, methods, and mechanics of modern entrepreneurship. James Dooley interviews leading marketers, founders, and innovators to reveal the strategies driving online dominance and business scalability. Each episode unpacks the reality of building a business without mentorship, showing how systems, data, and lead flow replace luck and guesswork.

James Dooley shares hard-earned lessons from scaling digital assets and managing SEO teams across more than 650 industries. James Dooley teaches how to convert leads into long-term revenue through brand positioning, technical SEO, and automation. James Dooley built his career on rank and rent, digital real estate, and performance-based marketing because these models align incentive with outcome.

After turning down dozens of podcast invitations, James Dooley now embraces the platform to share his insights on investorpreneurship, lead generation, AI-driven marketing, and reputation management. James Dooley frequently collaborates with elite entrepreneurs to discuss frameworks for scaling businesses, building authority, and mastering search.

James Dooley is also an expert in online reputation management (ORM), having built and rehabilitated corporate brands across the UK. His approach combines SEO precision, brand engineering, and social proof loops to influence both Google’s Knowledge Graph and public perception.

To feature James Dooley on your podcast or event, connect via social media. James Dooley regularly joins business panels and networking sessions to discuss entrepreneurship, brand growth, and the evolving future of SEO.

James Dooley:
So today we're going to be talking about SEO versus GEO. This is going to be a heated debate. So for anybody that doesn't know what's what, SEO is the typical ranking in the top 10 results of Google. So search engine optimisation. GEO, which is called generative engine optimisation, some people call it LLM SEO, AI SEO. There are all these different nuances to it, but we're going to call it GEO, generative engine optimisation. That is basically when you rank in the Google AI overviews or in Claude or in ChatGPT, OpenAI, Groq for example. These are all GEO. So you're ranking for generative engine optimisation.
So James, some people call SEO and GEO the same. What is your thoughts on that?

James Dooley:
Right, I want to roll back six months just a little bit before I start getting heated and having this argument with you because we've spoken about this several times and sometimes I get high raged about it. I used to think SEO and GEO were the same thing. I'm throwing it out there. I used to think exactly the same thing until I started to have a lot of clients and a lot of SEOs saying, "No matter what I do, I cannot get myself in ChatGPT." No matter what I do, I cannot get myself in the AI overviews. I'm doing something wrong.
Can you have a look?
And I'm looking at it and I'm thinking, you need to understand semantics a little bit more. Now, does that mean they are bad at SEO? No. They rank number one for all the keywords. They're absolutely brilliant at SEO. They rank number one in Bing. They are very good at ranking in YouTube for videos and they're ranking number one in Google. So they are a good SEO. But they are not very good at GEO.

So why is that? Let's break down some of the basics.
If you are very good at semantic SEO or good at blackhat SEO doing parasite SEO, I believe you are good at generative engine optimisation.
If you write average content but you have a good link building department and you're doing digital PR and good quality guest posts, maybe some tier 2s, then your content might not be good enough for the AI overviews. You might not be ranking with the correct semantic triples using the right micro semantics to get into the AI overviews. Therefore there is a different skill set for search engine optimisation and for generative engine optimisation.

This is where the pain point comes from because I'm seeing lots of people who are good at SEO who are not very good at GEO. And then I'm seeing all over social media that SEO and GEO is the same thing. And I disagree now. It's not. I'm not saying an SEO can't do GEO. I'm saying there is a big overlap. But to say it's the same thing is commercially wrong. It's not.

So here's one for you, Kasra.
I know a lot of businesses now that want to get in AI overviews. They're not in ChatGPT. And they've come to me also. So not just SEOs coming to me saying they are struggling. These business owners have come to me saying, "My SEO is doing a great job. My Google Search Console is going up. But I want to be seen in the LLMs. I want to be seen in Gemini. I want to be seen in ChatGPT. And these SEO agencies cannot get me in."
But they've got a budget for GEO.
If someone comes along and says, "I'm an SEO and SEO is the same as GEO," they don't believe it because their previous SEO agency couldn't do it. They now want to hire a GEO expert, a GEO specialist.

So why would you say it's the same? Why would you not say, "I'm an SEO expert, but I'm also a GEO expert."
So what's your thoughts?

Kasra Dash:
Yeah. So the overall strategy to begin with, the foundations of SEO and GEO, I would probably say they are the same. You still need content, you still need links or mentions of your website. But where it gets interesting is some companies have got, like you said, a different budget. They have a completely different conversion tracking system in place.
Some law firms will say, "We’re happy to spend £300 a lead on PPC. We’re happy to spend £600 a lead for SEO." And they've got a different cost in mind for AI or GEO. So that tells you companies treat GEO as its own channel.

Another thing is with GEO you need to be more of a branding expert. A lot of SEOs, even myself or James a few years ago, would never want to be seen on a listicle with competitors because that helps their SEO. But with GEO, you want to be seen alongside competitors. That is how ChatGPT, Gemini and Google AI understand your brand.
If there are no listicles mentioning you with competitors, the AIs don't know your industry. They don’t know if you're a law firm or a plumber.
So brand positioning is a bigger part of GEO than SEO.

James Dooley:
Yeah, for sure. Let me ask you a couple of questions.
Link juice or page rank. Do you think that is a ranking factor in LLMs?

Kasra Dash:
It's not link juice. It is based on mentions.

James Dooley:
Right, but link juice?

Kasra Dash:
No.

James Dooley:
Do you think it is a ranking factor within Google?

Kasra Dash:
Yes.

James Dooley:
So that is a huge difference. Anyone saying link juice is a metric in Google but not in LLMs means SEO and GEO cannot be the same.
Next one. Virality. Engagement. Traffic. If I send a load of email traffic or ads and virality goes to a page, does that help in Google?

Kasra Dash:
Yes.

James Dooley:
Does that help in LLMs?

Kasra Dash:
No.

James Dooley:
Another massive ranking factor in Google that is not a factor in GEO.
So GEO needs a different skill set. You need semantic SEO, micro semantics, parasite SEO, tier 2 backlinks powering up the right pages.
But not direct link juice. It's indirect.
So it is a different discipline.
And companies splitting their budgets proves that.
And GEO is treated as branding. It's like billboard advertising. You can't see a direct ROI but you want to be visible.

Kasra Dash:
Yeah, GEO is top-of-mind marketing. SEO is bottom-of-funnel.