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The Modern CFO podcast is designed to illuminate the hard work that is behind the scenes in financing next-generation ideas and technologies, as well as acknowledging the developing role of senior financial professionals, and the tools they rely upon.
[00:00:00] Andrew Seski: Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another exciting episode of The Modern CFO Podcast. As always, I'm your host, Andrew Seski. Today, we're joined by Dan Ellis, managing director of Townsend Search Group, a search group based in Michigan, my home state. And for just over a decade, Dan shared his career experience in public accounting and consulting and today is connecting private equity groups or portfolio companies with the best talent there is. Dan, thank you so much for joining us today.
[00:00:35] Dan Ellis: Andrew, thank you. Happy to be here and excited to chat about some topics about the modern CFO.
[00:00:43] Andrew Seski: So one of the reasons I'm so excited that you're on the podcast is that we get all of these incredible insights from CFOs in their fields. And while they're all diverse, I think your perspective should be really unique and valuable to them. It's a somewhat opaque world and I know that market dynamics have severely shifted in the last few years and even last few months. Before we dive into the whole world of CFO placements and Townsend as a search group, I'd love to go back in time and learn a little bit about how you initially became interested in accounting and maybe even earlier days outside of undergrad.
[00:01:20] Dan Ellis: Yeah, sure. I appreciate that. I grew up in an entrepreneurial family. My father and grandfather purchased a manufacturing company that they grew and successfully operated. So I always wanted to be a business owner and I saw accounting as a path into that. So went to Western Michigan University, got my accounting degree. After that, spent eight years in public accounting and consulting as a CPA. Towards the tail end of that, I got into M&A advisory, due diligence, transaction support. And really liked that environment, but didn't see myself being a partner in a public accounting firm. I wanted to do something more entrepreneurial where you could eat what you kill. And so I was introduced to my colleague and partner Peter Bridges at Townsend Search Group. And just came into the executive search and recruiting world with a network previously in private equity and consulting and was able to learn the operations and the process of executive recruiting and eventually become very good at executing searches, which ultimately led into more to business development and opportunities like this to meet you.
[00:02:31] So our specialty at Townsend has really become working with middle-market companies, lower middle-market companies that are privately owned, most often private equity sponsored. So we do a lot of work in the private equity community, not only at the firm level or within the funds and working with the investment teams, the operating teams. We spend a significant amount of our time working within the portfolio companies, placing accounting, finance, operational executives, and leaders. So I think today, we'll spend most of the time on CFOs. And just to set the context, a lot of our focus is in the middle market with privately owned businesses.
[00:03:13] Andrew Seski: Yeah, that's really helpful. Thanks for that. Yeah, I think in my mind when you're going out and engaging with a search firm maybe for the first time, you may have some hesitations and I'm curious as to when and how maybe CFO should begin the process of engaging with the search firm. I feel like the marketplace, maybe the tenure has shortened a bit in a typical amount of turnover in the C-suite in general right now. I'm curious as to when it would be most strategic to engage with search firms, understand the marketplace better, or if you should essentially always have a good pulse on the market.
[00:03:51] Dan Ellis: I think it's always important to have a good pulse on the market. And this comes into a little bit of how do you develop into a CFO. And I think earlier in a career as a candidate, as an aspiring CFO, being in contact with the recruiter can really help you be more strategic with developing your skill set to be a CFO. So we can understand your background and experiences and where you want to get and try to align your interests with companies or CFOs that are looking to hire someone in those functional areas. So making sure that you're deliberate and strategic with your career development is something that a recruiter can help counsel or advise. We can give you data points on what the market holds in terms of compensation and really just help make sure that you're aware of what's out there in the market.
[00:04:45] Now, if you're a sitting CFO and you're building a team, being in contact with us is very valuable because we're constantly in the market talking with folks. We know what they're making. We know what they're looking for. If we can understand the vision that a CFO is trying to drive in a business, the strategy they're trying to execute, we can find candidates or we may know candidates that align with that strategy and that vision, and therefore it creates a win-win in the fact that we're getting the candidate the technical and the experiences that they need to develop their skillset to be a CFO, but we're also helping that sitting CFO build out their team and drive what they're looking for. So hopefully, that's helpful.
[00:05:34] Andrew Seski: Definitely. I mean, so you've been with Townsend for about a decade now. And the world has changed a lot and we've been through a number of economic market cycles and then the last few years have been extremely interesting. I'm curious as to how that impacts — maybe equity becomes more important in a cash-restricted business that needs to ramp up and scale. I'm curious what a search firm market environment is, like what the cycles are in the marketplace for you, maybe what the lag is, and then what it is like in our current market today. You know, we're chatting in April of 2023. And what does the world look like today from your vantage point? What should CFOs think of in terms of the kind of market cycles that ebb and flow throughout their search for maybe a new position?
[00:06:22] Dan Ellis: Yeah, great question. I'll try to cover it all. I think that in the last 10 years, we've seen equity participation become more prominent. It's become more visible. And where it used to maybe be only at the C-suite level, we've seen equity participation coming downstream into the business. So as far as manager level, controller level, we're seeing M&A associates and businesses getting equity or carried (profits) interests. And a lot of that is to attract and retain talent, but it's also to counter the increase in cash compensation that we're seeing in the market right now. I think there's been quite an increase, especially in the junior professional through vice president. I think there's been a little bit of compression more at the C-level, but that's been offset by more generous equity participation as well. So I think in general, just thinking about the long term in terms of your earning potentials and just making sure that you gather the experiences and the skill set to put yourself in a position to be in your prime earnings potential. So it's definitely still a candidate market. It has been since I've been in the business. I think it will continue to be a candidate market. So you need to really be in tune with what folks are looking for out there, and a lot of that has to do with compensation but we're seeing quite an increase in the non-economic values and having some flexibility and lifestyle that you can sprinkle in. So there's many different things that kind of surround the market in terms of compensation and yeah.
[00:08:14] Andrew Seski: How do you think about conflict resolution in general? You're dealing with private equity folks and high-caliber finance leaders, and typically those are opinionated, successful, maybe a little Type A personalities. And when you've got that elevated level of success and the lofty goals of all of the outcomes, when you think about conflict resolution amongst these two parties with hopefully aligned interest and as an outcome, how do you think broadly about managing expectations?
[00:08:48] Dan Ellis: I think first and foremost, really anybody that's ascending to a leadership role in today's market has soft skills, behaviors, leadership skills that include having a high emotional intelligence and being adaptable and being approachable. So I think even in the private equity firms, we're seeing that leadership style. And so they do value their vendors and want your advice. And I think related to the CFO in a private equity-owned business, the CFO interacts with the private equity group more than anybody. They're typically the ones developing the presentations and leading the board, the monthly board meetings, and interacting with the investors. So having a strong relationship with the private equity group is extremely important and sharing and the vision and alignment of the strategy because on one side, you're reporting to the private equity group. You're driving value creation, but you're also dual-reporting to the president or CEO in the business and you're their financial partner, so you've got to be able to balance it all. And so I think that just being deliberate, being communicative, just making sure that you have good behavioral management and leadership skills is super critical, especially in the private equity environment where there's just limited resources. You need to be more of a generalist, so having the humility and ability is critical.
[00:10:25] Andrew Seski: We often talk about on the podcast the mix of EQ and IQ needed in the CFO role. People often forget that it's not just a finance job. You're the public face of the finance team, which needs that mix of leadership capacity and a lot of EQ and the scaling amount of IQ and EQ as well. I'm curious as to — it sounds like we're kind of dancing around your definition of what a modern CFO looks like today, and maybe we could expand upon that and talk about what kind of playbooks that you've seen that have been successful and potentially adopted by others.
[00:11:01] Dan Ellis: Yeah, happy to help define the modern CFO. And I think breaking it down, we view it as having the technical skill set as well as the soft skills. And the technical skill set is making sure that you're well rounded, making sure that you take all the steps to develop the functional areas that a CFO oversees. And the CFOs that we work with are all very hands-on. They're in the details, but they're able to delegate. So things that we see being critical are developing a sound accounting foundation. It's making sure that you understand that controllership hat and not rushing through the financial reporting stages and making sure that you get involved in financial planning and analysis. And I think very important in private equity-owned business is the treasury function and managing debt and the banking relationships. These are typically highly leveraged companies, and so making sure that you round out your professional technical skill set is super critical, especially in a middle-market business where you have to wear many different hats and you may not have a corporate development function focused on M&A. The CFO is the person doing that, and they are the one leading integration. So making sure that you get as much exposure and not rushing through your progression to CFO, being patient is super critical.
[00:12:35] But then on the soft skill side, you know, we're pretty focused on in-person roles. I think there's been a pendulum swing back to being in person and the reality is leaders have been present the whole time. Executives are present. They're on site. They're in person. They're deliberate. That is the best way to develop your leadership skills is being there in person. And I think the CFOs that we see that are highly successful right now, they're adaptable. They're decisive. They know what they're looking for. They know where they're going. They know the story. If they're going to hire, they know what they're looking for and they can move quickly. They're transparent with not only what they're doing, but also the financials and the performance of the business to their team and the metrics that we're trying to drive because a lot of those metrics hinge on how bonuses are calculated and bonus calculations, I think, years ago, discretionary was okay. That's out the window. You can't be discretionary with bonuses anymore. People need to have a target. They need to know where they stand. They need to know. They need that transparency. It's a benefit.
[00:13:49] So I think it's really the balance of those behavioral and technical skills that define a modern CFO and just the ability to adapt in different market cycles. Been in a really high growth market with a lot of M&A and that could be changing here. So it could involve a little bit different of a skill set.
[00:14:11] Andrew Seski: I'm curious as to how you define success with a placement. We were just — you were just mentioning bonuses being aligned, you know, to certain outcomes. So it sounds like a search firm like Townsend works with a fund or a CFO and it's not just a one-time, you know, help negotiate a contract. It seems like there's more of a partnership over a longer period than I may have understood previously. So how do you define success in a placement that goes well? Or maybe what's a failure of a placement look like maybe not for you personally but just in general?
[00:14:49] Dan Ellis: For us, we play the long game. It's all about the relationships. This can be a very transactional business and that's what we want to avoid. So I often describe us as acting like an investment bank. We operate like an investment bank. We understand the story and the vision and the value of the opportunity we're going to market with. And we go out and we sell that and we bring in an audience that we screen and vet and validate and interview, and ultimately negotiate to a final close, hopefully. But I think for us to define success is getting a call from our client saying, "Hey, you placed your CFO a year ago. They're killing it. Now, they need to build out a corporate development team. Can you do that?" Yes, we can. And then from that CFO placement, we placed eight people on their entire accounting and finance team, building out corporate development, building out a business intelligence, FP&A, controllership. And it becomes very effective because we know the organization intimately. We can speak intelligently. These are professionals we're engaging with. So the more that we can speak with them and not just be a recruiter trying to get their resume, that's how you really excite them and get them engaged in the interview process.
[00:16:13] So we've been able to generate, I would like to say, repeat business. More than 90% of our business is repeat because we'll do one placement with a PE group. And they know we can perform, so they'll use us again. And it snowballs into working with many different PE groups across the Midwest and nation now. So we've learned to be very disciplined with taking on new clients to make sure that we were both invested in it. We both want to see it to a final solution. And our role is valued because we provide a lot of education through the search process as to what the market holds not only in terms of candidates, but skill sets, experience levels, and related compensation as well that's real time, not what you'll find on a website through some report.
[00:17:10] Andrew Seski: I'm thinking about some of the cultural differences between even East Coast, Midwest, Midwest to West Coast, and the investment styles in management styles. And I'm curious if there are things or questions that a CFO should ask search groups and companies that maybe aren't as obvious or mistakes that they can avoid or anything that you've seen not pan out in the way that they had anticipated over something that maybe wouldn't come top of mind when you're interviewing or engaging with a firm. Cultural differences just came to mind off the top of my head, but I'm sure there are a number of others.
[00:17:49] Dan Ellis: I think the easiest one to just describe that is I always say it's the airport test, right? With anybody that you're going to be working, with any PE group, with any CFO that you're hiring, if you're the CFO and you're hiring anybody on your team, will this person pass the airport test? And that's if you get stranded at an airport overnight with this person, are you going to want to hang out with them? Are you going to have dinner? Are you going to — are you going to talk? Or are you going to go completely separate ways because you just can't stand each other? And I think private equity can have a little bit of a bad rap in the market, maybe a little misperception, a bad name. Because historically, some have come in and they've made tough decisions and rightsized and made eliminations. And to be frank, we're coming into a distressed market where that skill set is going to be needed. But in reality, they're saving jobs. They're turning businesses around. So there are different approaches and different styles of management or of private equity firms.
[00:18:52] I think for us, it's just a — it's finding firms that align with how we like to operate. And I always like to hang my hat on having Midwest values. I grew up in Michigan. Yes, we do work on the East Coast and West Coast. But for me personally, I find a lot of comfort working in the Midwest because the personality is just aligned. We have personal interests, like running and skiing and biking and boating and things of that. So just being able to build the relationship, I think, is really critical — a personal relationship, a bond — to the extent that you can incorporate behavioral interview questions or just casual interview meetings as a stage in the process, I think, can help obtain some comfort around those areas.
[00:19:37] Andrew Seski: Yeah, it's a really great one. I haven't thought about the airport test in quite some time, but that's a great example.
[00:19:42] Dan Ellis: And sometimes if it's a high level, we'll encourage, hey, why don't you get, you know, bring your significant other, meet for dinner, and make sure that there's comfort. Because if you and I, Andrew, are going to be working together a lot, well, you know, our significants should know one another and know you, and it just helps create a lot of clarity and, I think, a lot of ease going into these high-expectation environments.
[00:20:08] Andrew Seski: Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it — a high-expectation environment. Maybe even still an understatement. But, you know, we're going into, you know, an interesting market development. I think the next, you know, I think 20 — end of 23 and 24 will be kind of the time and we'll look back as kind of like the time of austerity. I think it's going to be really important for CFOs. I'm curious as to — with maybe a looming recession ahead, what's top of mind for you right now and how are you thinking about the next 12 months?
[00:20:43] Dan Ellis: Great question. We are not seeing any signs of slowdown. In fact, we're becoming more busy because of the supply versus demand. So think of it typically as it's tough to find the executives. You need headhunters, recruiters to go out and find them. We're seeing it hard to find from top to bottom candidates. So people want to retain and engage us to find lower-level junior resources, and it's not always the most effective approach. So we're seeing a lot of demand. Now that being said, we're in the middle market. I think the large corporate environment is seeing some signs of distress. The automotive supply chain is fractured. I think a lot of that has to do with work ethic and cultural issues there. We're seeing signs of trouble in the tech industry, which we don't do a lot of work in, just being based in the Midwest, but we have some exposure to it.
[00:21:36] So for us, it's being able to balance. We've been in a highly acquisitive environment. There's been a lot of capital to deploy, to do acquisitions, to execute on these buy-and-build platforms. As that slows, which it's not slowing a ton, let's say it was running at 100% and now it's running at 70, we offset that with turnaround and restructuring or working with distressed companies that may need a treasury expert or someone that understands internal controls and can really strengthen the infrastructure of the business. So where there may have been a need for M&A previously, now there's gonna be a demand for operational consultants and supply chain advisors. And so we're actually seeing an uptick in those boutique firms that provide those operational restructuring and advisory for services, even though the big firms are seeing a slowdown in some areas of those.
[00:22:35] So it just depends on the pockets, I think. And overall, still a large amount of capital out there to deploy. If anything, PE groups will come into more distressed deals, turn them around, create value. There's still a lot of demand for the CFO skill set and their team. I think there's fewer people going into accounting and finance these days. You really need to be deliberate with how you develop your team or how you develop your skillset as a CFO to get to where you want 'cause it's a game of chess. You've gotta be strategic. You've gotta be thinking about how you win. But it's gonna take 20 steps to get there and be methodical. I think a lot of these people that want to get into private equity, it's like being a doctor. They knew it from a young age. And if you realize that you want that right out of college, you're already too late.
[00:23:28] Andrew Seski: That's a really interesting point. I want to zoom out a little bit and think more broadly about the next three to five years, you know, what's most exciting in the world, in your world. Is it some of the fun things we could do with ChatGPT right now? Or what's most exciting maybe even the next few years for your team and for you?
[00:23:49] Dan Ellis: Most exciting thing for us has really been evolving from just really a group of recruiters that collaborate into a firm and having the firm clients and really being collaborative and viewed as not individuals but a firm, so having that a firm approach. And we're coming up at a point of transition and we're working on that, which is really exciting. My colleague Peter would like to spend more time enjoying the things that he likes to do, like flying and traveling. So we want to support that transition, so we're really excited about that. But I think the demand for search is going to continue to increase. You've got to be very proactive with attracting the right candidate right now and go out and knock on people's doors, so really excited for the future there.
[00:24:40] I think a little bit longer term, we're kind of curious to see what the remote work environment is going to do in terms of a gap in CFO leadership capabilities. We're seeing a lot of overtitled, overcompensated, underexperienced professionals out there right now. People have been able to jump up quite quickly just because of the demand. But should we hit a recession, should the market decline, there will be a correction to that to those individuals. So I think that goes back to being patient and strategic and deliberate to make sure you don't get ahead of yourself and make sure that you are really good at what you do before you move on to the next thing. So we enjoy counseling. We enjoy providing guidance to CFO candidates, aspiring CFOs, clients. That's what we enjoy the most. So really, really looking forward to continuing to do that and continuing to create value for the clients that we work with by placing effective leaders.
[00:25:46] Andrew Seski: That's great. I want to do my favorite question on every podcast and it can be literally about anything that's on your mind. It doesn't have to be related to private equity or placements or your team. But I always love to talk about something that you feel is underestimated in the world today. We've gotten answers from general civility to, you know, the toll that the pandemic took on, you know, their children's education. So we've really seen the full gamut, but I always think it's interesting to talk to, you know, our audience and the guests just to round out our conversations about, you know, what to think about and especially what you feel is underestimated. Maybe we haven't had a chance to take a deep dive on.
[00:26:29] Dan Ellis: I love this one. I'm going to have to say work ethic. I think work ethic right now is underestimated. I think the next generations just don't have the same work ethic that our grandparents and our parents had, and it's disrupting some industries. For example, automotive. I know, from what I've heard in the supply chain, that the younger generations, they've seen that they can miss a deadline and the world still operates and things are fine. And the automotive world has never operated like that. You fly by the seat of your pants on thin margins, you deliver on time or early. And so there's been some disruption because of I just say the cultural differences of work ethic and what sacrifices you need to make in order to get to the level of a CFO or a private equity investor. It's not easy. These folks are working their tails off. They're sacrificing families, all for the greater good of their professional career growth. And that is not for everybody, right? I mean, that's one of the reasons I selected out of M&A advisory is just those people really enjoy working a lot, and I value other things. So I think the world needs more work ethic out there. I think, you know, we need some tough love. And I think companies are starting to take a little bit harder stance on working remote and setting the expectations for people going forward and making sure that the tail is not wagging the dog.
[00:28:04] Andrew Seski: Right. It's a really interesting conversation because it's not as if — we're not kind of espousing that your values need to change per se. But to be in the C-suite, especially in a CFO position, it is a level of work and work ethic to get to that spot that won't likely change. I mean, there'll be augmentative technologies that make the job more efficient. But we're still talking about a leadership role, so there just are no shortcuts, it sounds like.
[00:28:33] Dan Ellis: Great way to put it. You can't take shortcuts. You'll miss an important experience or an important skill to develop. I think there's a lot of entitlement out there right now. I think COVID didn't help that because candidates were able to kind of get what they wanted, working remote, making more money. Well, we're going to have a correction. And for me personally, I graduated college at a time where it was the Great Recession. And I remember getting a pay cut and my friends were losing their jobs and you were grateful to have the experience and have an employer. Well, I think that's swung a little bit too far in the other direction where, you know, candidates are taking advantage of opportunities and we need to bring them back and — Hey, it's great. You're making X, Y, Z cash comp. This is the reality on the market, but we can offset it with this. And it's just — it's helping them to think it through because my colleague always says we're kind of like a priest or a bartender. We're here for counsel. People open up to us. We have a lot of advice. But I think work ethic and less entitlement would be my two comments.
[00:29:48] Andrew Seski: Yeah. Well, it's interesting. I think the pandemic just put a bunch of priorities on everyone's plate. And I think a lot of people just reshuffled them, you know, living to work versus working to live, the role of family in their lives, role of hobbies. And it'll be interesting to see what sticks and what comes back. I think, you know, remote work is certainly a really highly debated topic and some functions and some teams work efficiently in different capacities. I think as a leader, you need to be fairly visible just as a general comment, but it will be fascinating in the next few years to see what happens when there are less resources available and you start to need to be there to negotiate, to not just be on a Zoom call, and to drive culture in your own firm. So it'll be an interesting few years for sure.
[00:30:40] One of the things I selfishly want to talk about a little bit is just the role of athletics in your life. And we're talking about work ethic. I'm curious, just in general, the personality types you get across all of these CFOs. Are they mostly fairly similar? Are they a really diverse group of people?
[00:30:59] Dan Ellis: I'd say they're fairly diverse. However, there's always a drive. They always have the attitude, the edge, the discipline. Discipline to me is always the big one. It's doing the right thing even though it's hard and nobody's asking you to do it, right? You do it because it's good for you. It may not be what you want, but it's for the greater of the good or the business or the others. So I think discipline is important and that, for me, stems from athletics and growing up swimming and I do IRONMANs and marathons and a lot of endurance sports, which I know you share those views as well. So I think having things outside of the professional world that you can set goals and you can accomplish them only makes you a better professional or CFO. And having that competitive drive but also the humility to know that I'm not the fastest out there and there's always someone better or faster that I can be learning from. So you take that and you apply it to business. And there's a lot of different, you know, ways to look at it. But I'd say for the most part, everybody's very goal-driven. They like to achieve results. And so athletics in whatever form or fashion tend to align with that as well.
[00:32:19] Andrew Seski: So it sounds like Townsend's got its niche fairly well defined. Are there questions that people who are, you know, even starting to consider making a switch, should they be interviewing their search firms as well?
[00:32:31] Dan Ellis: Not every search firm is for every person. You've got to find the one that works for you, and we're a little bit of a hybrid. We're not a contingent firm or a resume mill. But we're not the big boys that fly around and have big offices in big cities. We're right in the middle, and we're very personable. We're very collaborative where we can customize our approach. We've worked intimately with our clients. We don't hand it off to junior resources overseas. It is what you see is what you got. We're a small boutique firm. So that's just the approach that we take and if that aligns with how you operate, then we'd love to talk with you as a client or a candidate. But it is the long-term approach for us. We may have something that we can work on together right now. Great. But our approach is, in reality, it may be five years. It may be 10 years.
[00:33:25] In fact, I'm working right now. We have an offer out for a CFO candidate with a middle-market private equity-owned business in Michigan. I've known this candidate for five years. We just haven't had the right opportunity. This person lives in northern Michigan. This is a chance for them to come down to the Southeast Michigan market where they have family. It's manufacturing. It allows equity. Everything really aligned. This is a match made in heaven. We've known this person for years, but we had to run a thorough process as well. We had them interview with eight candidates. This, you know, this person wasn't just, oh, here's the one. It's we did a very thorough job to try to make a difficult decision and outrule that person. But, you know, that is the ultimate decision. So we like to develop relationships and good things happen from doing the right thing when no one's looking so.
[00:34:21] Andrew Seski: I love it. I don't know if we could end on a higher note than that. But is there a way for people to get in touch with you or the firm that you want to share on the podcast here?
[00:34:29] Dan Ellis: Absolutely. Our website is up and running. You can contact us through there. Got a LinkedIn page. You can follow that. We are actively posting what we're up to. Our placements in LinkedIn profiles are big. We've got contact information on there, so welcome to call, email, text anytime. Always happy to take some time and invest in a conversation to hopefully collaborate in the future with others.
[00:34:57] Andrew Seski: Excellent. And we'll make sure to link all of that in the show notes to make it super easy for everybody. But I have to say thank you. I know our audience will be extremely grateful for all of the insights, bringing some transparency to these processes, and for the opportunity to get to know you and the Townsend Group. So thank you so much, Dan. Really appreciate your time today.
[00:35:16] Dan Ellis: Andrew, thank you very much. Looking forward to future collaborations.
[00:35:21] Andrew Seski: Excellent. This has been another episode of The Modern CFO Podcast. If you enjoyed the conversation today, please take a moment to like and subscribe wherever you're listening.