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The Smart Agency presents GlobeSt Women of Influence.
Jenn Quader (00:08)
In a time when everything can be delivered to your door in just two hours, why do people still go to the store? That question is reshaping retail real estate from the ground up. And today's guest on the Smart Agency Presents GlobeSt Women of Influence podcast is right at the center of this discussion.
We are so honored to have Whitney Livingston, who is Chief Operating Officer of ICSC. Now you all know ICSC, it's the preeminent membership organization serving the commercial real estate and retail industries. And they represent more than 50,000 members across the United States and Canada. Now Whitney, we are so lucky to have her today. She's a powerhouse leader. She has more than two decades of experience across retail management and leadership. First at Madison Marquette.
and later as president of Centennial before taking the helm of ICSC's operations. She is a GlobeSt Women of Influence honoree. She's been an ICSC four under 40 alumna, and she's a passionate advocate for the next generation of industry talent. I know you're going to love her like I already do. Today, Whitney leads the operational engine of the organization that really sets the agenda for the entire retail real estate industry.
So we're very honored to have here here on GlobeSt Women of Influence podcast, Whitney Livingston. Welcome.
Whitney Livingston (01:25)
a pleasure to be here and honored to just be a part of the GlobeSt Women of Influence community.
Jenn Quader (01:31)
it's so important and we're just so grateful. know, we are excited to celebrate you two. I want to remind our listeners that GlobeSt Women of Influence is happening on July 13th and 14th in Denver, and Whitney will be there. ⁓ So it's just such a great place to get together and share knowledge. And today we get a chance to kind of...
peek into that knowledge, a little sneak peek. And Whitney, you again have your finger on the pulse of so much. So let's dive right in. I want to ask, I want to look first at kind of the wider retail real estate lens. when I joined this industry, retail was tough, right? And yet it has really defied a lot of those predictions where everybody was worried about what was going to happen with e-commerce. And now today, as we sit, we have vacancy tight in many markets. We have
lots of formats that are seeing a lot of real leasing momentum. And then equally, what I understand is that the picture's not yet uniform across all asset classes or geographies. So Whitney, from your standpoint and the helm of ICSC, across your membership, what are the retail formats or the tenant categories that are driving the strongest demand for space right now? And then where are the soft spots that you'd want owners to be paying attention to today?
Whitney Livingston (02:44)
How much time do you have? Yeah, there you go. So you're absolutely right. Retail real estate has demonstrated its resilience and the underlying fundamentals across the marketplaces industry remain incredibly strong. Across our membership, we continue to hear a very consistent theme. Well-located, well-operated retail space remains in demand, period.
Jenn Quader (02:45)
We'll do a series.
Whitney Livingston (03:13)
That is true across a range of ownership structures and asset types from publicly traded companies to privately held portfolios, national, regional, local operators. Our members are really communicating a very strong story. We'll call it our resilience era around occupancy, leasing demand, rent spreads, tenant interest, but that's
is only one part of really the broader picture that you mentioned. What is important is the strength is not limited to one kind of owner or one kind of center. Part of what is supporting the market is the discipline that we're seeing around new retail supply. There's a mismatch in that supply and demand, right? There has not been the same level of new construction that the industry has experienced in prior cycles.
So the quality space and the right trade areas is more valuable than ever. So for retailers, for restaurants or service providers, that means that the right locations matter more than ever. And for owners and operators, it really reinforces the importance of quality merchandising, of reinvesting in our assets, quality operations, and really just creating environments that help tenants perform and attract consumers.
a category perspective, the strongest demand that we're seeing is really coming from formats and categories that reflect how consumers are prioritizing their time, their dollars, and their daily lives. So necessity-based retail continues to perform very well, especially grocery anchored centers ⁓ and well-positioned open air centers. Those formats are
just naturally a part of the regular rhythm of consumers' lives and continue to support frequent visits. That said, we're also seeing meaningful momentum in categories that are tied to self-care and to lifestyle. So that's beauty, healthcare, wellness, fitness. They all continue to expand because consumers are prioritizing those categories. And actually ICSC data shows
that consumers anticipate increasing discretionary spending on beauty, health, wellness, and fitness over the next many months. And so that's an important signal the industry from a category perspective. Another category that continues to perform exceptionally well is discount and off-price retail. Consumers are still spending, but they're more selective. Retailers that deliver value and affordability
and relevance are also really well positioned. So concepts like Dollar Tree or Five Blow or Ollie's they're opening stores significantly across the country and really reinforcing the importance of value oriented retail in today's environment. And then lastly, of course, food and beverage continues to be a core traffic driver and one of the most important activators in the retail environment. Strong F&B
creates frequency and enhances dwell time, social connection, and really supports the overall customer experience and another reason to visit, to spend time, and to engage in any marketplace.
Jenn Quader (06:34)
Well, first I'll just say yummy, you know, we ended on food and beverage so I want to comment on a couple things because you really went through a lot of different segments and they are things that really align with the trends that I'm seeing I'll start with food and beverage and I want to ask you one of the trends that I had been seeing in retail was what I would call kind of a Localization of food offerings and this has been over the last 10 years. It's more about community. It's more about diversity Can you talk a little bit about that in that little subsector? Is that still real and still happening?
Whitney Livingston (06:37)
Yeah.
It's not by any means isolated to F &B. We're seeing it across all retail. And when I say retail, I think of it as retail with a capital R. So it's not just apparel shopping. It's health, wellness, beauty, fitness, grocery, lifestyle service providers, and F F&B.
Jenn Quader (07:23)
That makes sense. And then you mentioned health, because I definitely see the beauty and the wellness. And when I say I see it, you see that across ⁓ trends of younger generations on TikTok, and there being a big interest in that. And so I could see that driving. One of the other things that I've read about, and I'm interested in wonder if membership is interested in, is health care in the retail space. And I'd say not only even human health care, but pet health care, which is some of the segments I've seen that have the most growth in.
institutional investment. How is that playing out in the retail space and in those environments that are being created?
Whitney Livingston (07:56)
Be for humans or for their furry friends is absolutely an important category in open air and enclosed mall retail.
Jenn Quader (08:06)
talked about something that's really interesting. You talked about the discipline of not adding new supply and see, we, we are seeing in other product categories like industrial and then like now multifamily that there are these challenges with supply. what I'm aware of, and this is something that a mentor of mine shared with me a long time ago.
if you go to Europe or to other places, they didn't really overbuild their retail. And in America, we really overbuilt our retail early on, which is what led to some of that softness. So what I'm hearing now is we've really corrected that. And I want to know from you, Whitney, how did that happen? Like, did that happen from, did the industry come together to do that? Was there policy that supported that? What's your just generalized take on how retail with a capital R was able to get so disciplined and now have these spaces that are actually growing value?
Whitney Livingston (08:52)
Well, unfortunately, I really think it's the cost of capital that is constraining the ability to for new ground up development. I would like to think that it was something proactive that we came together as an industry and said, hey, we are overbuilt as a country. But the reality is, it's really more the macroeconomic environment. But that said, to your point about being overbuilt.
We're also seeing a significant amount of repurposing of retail real estate across the United States. most of those suburban malls are very well located. They were built in the 70s, 80s. so what we can do with that space, which as you know, know, yesterday's suburban malls are expansive parking spots, parking
fields, they have generally four department stores, which no mall, most malls don't need four department stores today, and a lot of interior GLA. And so when you have 60 to 90 acres of well-located real estate, that's a pretty incredible canvas for transforming into a mixed use project or just a better use for that real estate for its community.
Jenn Quader (10:08)
That makes so much, repurposing is such a, that's part of what I love about this industry is that things can reinvent themselves. I like to say that commercial real estate is the Madonna of industries because Madonna always look different, right?
Whitney Livingston (10:19)
Well said.
Yes, well said. Yeah. And I think it's so interesting because when you think about the best performing retail environments, retail with a capital R, they're the ones where the entire ecosystem works together. Retailers, restaurants, services, entertainment, public spaces, operations, programming, you name it. The mix is curated well. If it creates convenience and experience and community and customer engagement,
really where we are seeing the strongest performance.
Jenn Quader (10:52)
I love it. That's actually a perfect segue into my next question and it centers around that convenience sector. And I'm going to go to a study and for listeners ICSC puts out various data and information. You should definitely follow them. But ICSC and McKinsey just released a new report. It's called Shopping in the Age of AI. And we have to talk about AI on this. And there were some really interesting findings. I'll go through this quickly. But McKinsey is estimating that up to a trillion dollars.
in US B to C retail revenue could move through agentic commerce by 2030, which is coming kind of fast. So the biggest argument is that while AI is gonna handle some routine shopping, every physical location is going to need a clearly defined mission. And the report says it needs to be either convenience or discovery. And there's kind of a bold warning in here. It basically says like the operators that do this well, this ability to...
carve themselves out as convenience or discovery, they're gonna capture more than 85 % of the sector's profit. So that makes me wanna listen in, right? So my question to you is for those people who are running retail portfolios, and you mentioned there's all different ownership structures and types, what does convenience versus discovery mean in practice? And then how should owners be stress testing their assets against this new framework that's coming in with AI?
Whitney Livingston (12:11)
Yes.
So convenience versus discovery framework is one I'm fascinated by. It is a very practical way to think about the future role of physical retail. So as AI and agentic commerce begin to handle more routine shopping behaviors, stores and shopping centers need a clearly defined mission. They need to be clear about why and where they exist in the customer journey.
and what role they play in the broader retail ecosystem. So convenience-driven retail is about speed and access and reliability and ease, right? It includes daily and weekly needs. So going back to your previous question, it's groceries, pharmacies, services. It could be returns or pickup, quick dining, or just other errand-based uses.
those locations win when they remove friction and make the consumer's life easier. Discovery retail is about the engagement and the experience and inspiration and connection. And it's really the new brand, the new great restaurant, the new experiential tenant, or a high touch service model. It could be an event or an activation.
or just an environment that gives consumers a reason to spend time in a physical place. So as we think about those two different types of retail, from a retailer's perspective, the implication is clear. Use the store mission and invest against it, right? Convenience requires an investment in technology, inventory accuracy, speed, which is really, really important to convenience, and
requires investment in service, storytelling, and design. And so I think those are important distinctions for retailers as we think about the framework. And then for landlords and property owners, the opportunity is really to create ecosystem or a center, a marketplace that
delivers both. It's a well-positioned shopping center, can serve as a convenience hub and a discovery destination. So owners really need to think beyond the individual leases and evaluate how tenants will work together to capture consumer attention,
So a well-positioned shopping center can serve as both a convenience hub as well as a discovery destination, but it has to be intentional.
Jenn Quader (14:52)
I love it. My brain is popping with all sorts of thoughts. And the thing I want to say, and I love how you carved out that for the retailer, it's about getting very focused and clear. Are we delivering convenience? And if so, how do we invest in that versus are we delivering discovery? And then I think as people are shaping these retail environments, I really enjoy what you're talking about with the diversity of the holistic look. And it makes me think of something I'll just bring up. And it is not at all apples to apples. Okay, I want to clarify that.
but we were looking at a report yesterday from, believe it was PEI, it was either PEI or PREA, and it was about ⁓ institutional investment and really global capital flows into real estate. And you spoke about capital constraints that have slowed down development and things like that. And what we're seeing in that big capital market is that people are wanting to go much more into diversified,
portfolios as opposed to sector specific mandates. And I think we're seeing that at that large scale investment side. And then that trickles down to if you want a well capitalized retail project, you have to create that diversity. And so I like what you're talking about with the planning. but I wanna ask like who's doing it well?
And then where do you see opportunities for improvement as these things are shaping up?
Whitney Livingston (16:06)
Like any good parent, we have no favorite children at ICSC, no favorite members. obviously, Q1 earning results are coming out right now. Many of the public REITs released already this week, and we'll hear some more today and early next week. And I think the results speak for themselves. We're certainly seeing a lot of success in the open air space. I would tell you, if I put my centennial hat on for a second, how
would stress test an asset is I would first make sure I had the mission of the property. Again, going back to the framework, is it primarily convenience driven? Is it discovery driven? Or is it a marketplace that can successfully deliver both? And then I would evaluate the tenant mix, the site plan, the access, the parking, common areas.
experiential activations, does it have great music? Does it have great smells? Is there digital engagement? How do the customers engage? All of that coming together to really support the mission of the center. Those owners and developers that think about projects like that are the most successful. And frankly, I think AI will raise the bar. As we think about routine transactions, they will become easier to automate.
which will mean the physical places have more relevance and more production and will be more engaging. But that's also a tremendous opportunity for our industry as a whole because the best marketplaces can do what technology cannot do alone, which is create immediacy and deliver excellent service and connection and community. And so the winners will continue to be the owners and the retailers who
are clear about what they serve, how they serve them, and why consumers should choose to spend time with them.
Jenn Quader (18:04)
Brilliantly said and it just as you talk about the smells and the sounds and the I I love retail I mean who doesn't There's such an art to the creation of this and and yet I like what you said and I'll repeat it to get us into the next question Which is AI will raise the bar It's it's it's demanding more from us, and I think
You spoke about the difference in investment. There's the investment in the services and the storytelling and the experience and the design, and then there's the investment on the other side in that technology. so ICSC, of course, always ahead of the game, has introduced a new facet of ICSC Las Vegas. It's called ICSC + PropTech, and it's going to be taking place at ICSC Las Vegas, which is May 18th through 20th. And this is a dedicated event that's going to be connecting CRE decision makers with tech founders.
And we're looking at everything from AI driven leasing to autonomous commerce. So, you know, all different ends of the spectrum. And just to kind of let everybody know that it's a serious focus, you've got a lot of buyers that are already confirmed like Brookfield and Kimco and federal realty and Tanger. So, so these are big discussions that are happening and everyone's paying attention. So Whitney sitting in the middle of the seat, I want to know what's actually getting adopted? we're talking about a lot. There's a lot of opportunity, but
but what's moving from kind of pilot to portfolio wide deployment in the current world that's actually working? And then where is the gap still wide?
Whitney Livingston (19:25)
in.
It's a great question. So just for context, in 2025, $17 billion was invested in PropTech, and that is expected to grow 15 % year over year for the next 10 years. So by 2030, that is $35 billion a year. to your question, today, we're actually in a much more practical phase of PropTech adoption. The last several years, the industry has been evaluating the technology.
But today the conversation is much more focused on business outcomes. Owners, operators, and retailers are all asking whether a tool can improve leasing velocity, can it enhance an asset performance, can it reduce operating costs or improve tenant engagement, and overall, can it support NOI growth? And so the solutions that are moving from pilot to broader deployment are the ones that solve very specific operating or investment challenges.
think another area is really data and analytics adoption. So owners want better visibility into consumer behavior, trade area performance, demand, sales potential, and AI enabled tools that can help analyze public and private data or identify patterns or support site selection. Those are all becoming more and more important.
executed by more and more operators and developers. And so, you know, as we look at generating AI is really also beginning to show up in the daily workflows as well. again, leasing, legal review, facilities management, insights, you know, an example would be legal AI tools. They support purchase and sale review of.
assets, lease review, title review, survey review. They don't replace the need for experienced legal counsel or estate professionals, but it can improve the speed and consistency and efficiency. And so all of that to be said, where's the gap? The gap is still on the implementation and the scale. Many organizations have multiple systems that don't integrate cleanly and some lack formal
processes around evaluating AI tools or determining where they fit into the business. Also, others need to strengthen the fundamentals, the data hygiene, the cybersecurity and governance, risk management or change management. And that is really why ICSC believes that ICSC + PropTech is such an important addition to our event series because we sit.
the intersection of owners and retailers and brokers and investors and technology companies. And so our role, as you said, is really to help connect the innovation with the people who can apply it at scale. And so the future of PropTech from our perspective is not technology for technology's sake. It's technology that helps create better performing, more efficient, more engaging marketplaces and ultimately, ICSC members.
Jenn Quader (22:44)
Wow. I really like what you're saying. you talked about kind of the the growing investment by 2030, it'll be 35 billion. And it just seemed to me and this is something that I think is exciting about our industry that we are the gatekeepers.
The people that you're inviting into that room at ICSC + PropTech are going to be the people who, as you said, are making decisions based on business outcomes today. How do I improve my retail portfolio? What I see over time is by enabling and selecting and doing their due diligence to get the right tools in, not only are they going to protect and shore up their own portfolios, but I see it as an evening of the playing field. Because when you look at retail tenancy, there are
big institutional tenants, and then there are mom and pop tenants. And I think difficult to get in to what is needed. And so the more that we allow AI to come in, and we again select well, we are the gatekeepers through this, I think there's an opportunity to open to more retailers, to open to more community. And I think that's what we're trying to do. Like at our core, we wanna do good business, we want profitable portfolios, but we really want
people in communities to get out and enjoy? What are your thoughts on that? What do you see in that?
Whitney Livingston (23:55)
I mean, the shopping center industry would never be successful if we weren't creating communities. If we weren't creating a place that people wanted to come, a third place that people wanted to come and gather and spend, the shopping center business would not be successful. And so, yes, at our core, we are about building community. And I think...
you know, going back to the last question, know, AI raising the bar. I think AI plus really smart real estate professionals and well-located real estate, we will have a much better formula for success than we will have before. And it's so funny, I was actually at a conference this week and I had the pleasure of listening to Michelle Obama speak.
And one of the questions she was asked was about AI. And she kind of laughed and said, imagine if we could go back and think about what we were saying about the internet and what it would do. And when you think about that, I mean, that lands for me. The internet was pretty scary. We didn't know what to do with it. And here we are today.
I think we will continue to thrive as an industry, we will need to balance both where technology for efficiency and effectiveness makes sense versus, as I said before, technology for the sake of technology.
Jenn Quader (25:31)
I think it's so well said and kudos to Michelle Obama for bringing that in. But thank you for sharing that story because I think it's a huge reset on perception. There's a lot of messages out there that are trying to promote fear that are saying, you know, AI is going to take over and eat everyone's jobs. The truth is we did go through this before with the internet. We went through this before with television, you know, back at marketing and ad agencies had whole television departments. What are we going to do with this? So every time there's a new medium of connection, there are these decisions to be made.
And I'll go back to what you said, is, shopping centers don't exist without communities. And so while AI is going to make us more effective, it'll help us see more clearly, our data and analytics will be even better. At the end of the day, it is about creating real human connections. And I'll bring us to this last question, Whitney, because one of the strongest communities that I see in this industry is the community of women in real estate. And you in particular are someone
who has really sat in the seat and proven that these opportunities are available for women. You you built your career across a lot of very large companies and very large responsibilities. And what I think is important to a lot of different women, and women sit in a lot of different seats in this industry, but I think it's important that they see clear examples of what is possible, of where they can go and what they can do. So when we're looking at women and the community of women that we have,
Where do you see women in retail leadership? Where are the real opportunities for them to grow? And what is ICSC doing to programmatically help to support that community of women growing in retail real estate?
Whitney Livingston (27:12)
of all, I completely agree with you. I believe when you can see it, you can not only believe it, but you can be it. And so I think it's so important that ICSC and other organizations, obviously, GlobeSt and Women of Influence is doing this as well, right? As well as many other women's organizations out there. So I believe the pipeline changes
when access becomes intentional. There is no shortage of talented women in commercial real estate. The challenge is often access to the relationships, the visibility, the real sponsorship, the capital to stretch assignments and decision-making opportunities. so women need a seat at the table, but they also need support and development opportunities.
that help them advance and lead. And so at ICSC, we're committed to creating a more inclusive and accessible marketplaces industry. And this year we are launching ICSC + women in CRE, also co-located at ICSC Las Vegas with the mission to create a dedicated experience for women to come together with industry decision makers.
peers, mentors, and business leaders all in one place. And the event will include curated programming, networking, round tables, and other activations that are designed to create meaningful connections and career advancement opportunities for women in CRE. And so that event is Sunday, May 18th at the Wynn Las Vegas. Again, it's a full day of engagement.
And it is just the beginning of an ecosystem that we are creating called ICSC + Women in CRE and a commitment that we will continue to have dedicated programming or networking opportunities for women, ICSC deal making and specialty conferences going forward. we have to continue to
tell the story of our industry. I love retail real estate. I am so passionate about it. I say all the time I'm a retail, I'm a recovering retail real estate geek. And then I realized I'm not recovering. I am like still fully in it. I love it. This industry offers so many career paths, leasing, development, ops, finance, marketing, legal, construction, now more in technology and public policy and place making.
And the more we expose people to the breadth of the opportunity in this business, the stronger our pipeline becomes. And, you know, me personally, am where I am because I benefited from the people that gave me opportunity, that challenged me, that trusted me with responsibility.
And now I feel a responsibility to do that for others. And I think if we want women in leadership, we have to be intentional about access, about sponsorship, about that visibility. And that's really how the pipeline changes and ultimately makes the entire marketplaces industry stronger.
Jenn Quader (30:30)
Whitney, you've given us the cherry on top of a And I will remind everyone that on Sunday, May 18th, they should be going to ICSC + Women in CRE. we talked about ICSC + PropTech, very cool event. You should definitely go and check it out. Equally, GlobeSt Women of Influence will have a presence at the round tables at ICSC + Women in CRE. And I think that...
I would like to close with kind of your focus on intentionality. You talked about intentionality all the way through the focus of the retailer deciding between convenience and discovery through the retail portfolio owner or asset manager who's really intentionally building that type of community that is not only going to give you the strongest NOI but is going to develop that community. And then you talked about intentionality in women and in mentorship and in growth. And so ⁓ what I would say is
Kudos and thank you. I think I should say thank you, not even kudos, because you're right. We are all a product, you know, what do they say? We stand on the shoulders of those who came behind us. So thank you for being willing to give back and for mentoring and for opening. What I would like to ask is for any women who may be listening, women, men, anyone in the industry, where could they if they wanted to learn more, if they aren't yet members of ICSC, if they want to attend ICSC + Women in CRE or ICSC + PropTech.
Where should they go? How can they find you? What's their best bet?
Whitney Livingston (31:51)
That is a great question. Thank you for asking it. anyone interested in information about ICSC Las Vegas, ICSC + PropTech, or ICSC + Women in CRE, or any of our other events can find all the details at www.icsc.com.
Jenn Quader (32:09)
Thank you, Whitney, what an honor to have you on the show today. I can't wait to meet you in person at GlobeSt Women of Influence, but also at ICSC + Women in CRE on May 18th. To everyone that's out there listening, I invite you to attend not only ICSC + Women in CRE, ICSC + PropTech and ICSC Las Vegas, which is May 18th through 20th in Las Vegas.
I also very much invite you to attend GlobeSt Women of Influence in Denver, July 13th and 14th. There's a discount code here. Please get your tickets today. So GlobeSt Women of Influence is the singular national networking, professional development, and team building event in commercial real estate. Companies from all over the world send representatives to this two-day event to gain deeper insights, make valuable connections, and cultivate new ideas that bring innovation, growth, and deal flow.
We look forward to seeing you there.