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In this from-the-archives episode, Bart Hoffman interviews Dr. Frank Rodriguez and Gene Tavernetti about their book Digital Captives: Helping Schools Strike a Balance Between Humans and Hardware. They trace how technology moved from a tool intended to augment instruction into something that can displace attention, relationships, reading, and meaningful learning.
Frank and Gene discuss what they have observed in schools and after-school programs, why the pandemic accelerated existing problems, and how educators can respond without swinging from unquestioned technology adoption to an equally unhelpful rejection of digital tools. Their central message is practical: schools need intentional systems that put humans, learning, and healthy technology habits back at the center.
This is a refreshed from-the-archives presentation of Better Teaching episode 90.
Descriptions of effective teaching often depict an idealized form of "perfect" instruction. Yet, pursuing perfection in teaching, which depends on children's behavior, is ultimately futile. To be effective, lessons and educators need to operate with about 75% efficiency. The remaining 25% can be impactful, but expecting it in every lesson, every day, is unrealistic. Perfection in teaching may be unattainable, but progress is not. Whether you are aiming for the 75% effectiveness mark or striving for continuous improvement, this podcast will guide you in that endeavor.
[00:00:03] Gene Tavernetti: Welcome to Better Teaching, Only Stuff That Works, a podcast for teachers, instructional coaches, administrators, and anyone else who supports teachers in the classroom. This show is a proud member of the BE Podcast Network shows that help you go beyond education. Find all our shows@bepodcastnetwork.com. I Am Gene Tavernetti the host for this podcast. And my goal for this episode, like all episodes, is that you laugh at least once and that you leave with an actionable idea for better teaching. A quick reminder, no cliches, no buzzwords. Only stuff that
[00:00:40] works. A little more than two years ago, Dr. Frank Rodriguez brought together a group of colleagues from across the country to discuss an issue he had been encountering in his afterschool programs. The impact of screens on children and the behaviors that seem to emerge as a result of excessive screen time.
[00:00:57] After meeting virtually for several months, the group began gathering in person to more deeply examine the issue, identifying specific challenges schools were facing, and exploring what might be done to mitigate some of those behaviors. Over time, the work evolved into developing a systematic approach that schools could use to address what we began to see as runaway technology, where technology was driving the conversation rather than serving as a tool to support learning.
[00:01:26] Not long after the idea emerged that a book should be written, one that would do more than simply point out the problem. We wanted to identify the issues clearly and more importantly, outline practical systems schools could implement to address them instead of just saying, isn't this terrible? We wanted to offer solutions that we knew could work.
[00:01:45] That effort led to the book Digital Captives, Helping Schools strike a balance between humans and hardware. Written by Frank Rodriguez, Donna Smith, and myself, gene Taber. Today we're gonna talk about that book and we're joined by a friend of the podcast and a respective voice in education, Bart Hoffman, who will guide the conversation as we explore what schools can actually do to address this growing challenge and the benefits educators may gain from reading and applying the ideas in this book.
[00:02:14] I think you're gonna enjoy this conversation.
[00:02:17] So very excited to have, uh, an old friend Bart Hoffman here today to talk to us about our new book, digital Captives.
[00:02:25] So Bart, uh, so happy and and thankful that you're here to conduct this interview with us.
[00:02:31] Bart: Thank You
[00:02:32] You argue that schools have shifted from producing digital natives to becoming digital captives. What does that shift really mean?
[00:02:39] Frank: we started this work thinking about how students were changing over the course of, you know, the years following the pandemic. Gina and I are talking and thinking about. The start, our start of the start of our work together, back in the early part of the century, in 2004, I think 2005, um, how we, the optimism at that point was about how the technology was gonna really transform education and make, and the students were gonna grow up in it in a very healthy way, um, and be, and be digital natives in the way that we were digital immigrants
[00:03:10] too.
[00:03:10] what happened
[00:03:11] in actuality from our perspective is that everything shifted so
[00:03:15] fast.
[00:03:16] Everything from, social media to, to now ai, but also just the internet and, and quick cut videos. that really shifted how students think and, and how we do as well, and how we interact with each other.
[00:03:30] And at some point it tipped the scales to where they went from being natives to really being. Captives to the screens, whether the screens be at home, in the phone, in the form of phones and tablets and TV or the, or at school in the form of tablets and Chromebooks.
[00:03:47] Gene Tavernetti: in addition to, in addition to that, the, the work that Frank does in his rise after school programs, he was able to see, these differences manifest. I mean, they were very clear differences, kids not being able to, uh, to pay attention as well. Executive function were not where, uh, typical five year olds, 10 year olds were.
[00:04:08] And so it was, uh, it wasn't just something that we had read in a book. I mean, Frank was experiencing it every day with his folks.
[00:04:16] Frank: Yeah.
[00:04:16] And
[00:04:17] if I can piggyback on that, actually I'm gonna say that even more than myself, my staff was experiencing it and we were experiencing it from like four year olds through 22 year olds. Because, you know, we, we employ a lot of 18, 19, 20, 22
[00:04:31] year
[00:04:31] olds,
[00:04:32] uh, in our afterschool programs, tutoring programs, summer programs, et cetera.
[00:04:35] And we were seeing that, that they were acting differently in terms of like communication, how they, how they wrote, but also even things like eye contact or how we conducted interviews, you know, shifting to zoom how many would show up in their pajamas on the interviews. So there was definitely a shift there, but we also noticed it in the programs with like four and five year olds.
[00:04:56] Like Gene was saying, that we're having a difficult time. Assimilating to what the school structures were like, partly 'cause they missed preschool, but also partly because they were coming in, it seemed to us at the time, wired a little bit differently. So we were having those issues with four, four, and five and six year olds who were like running outta
[00:05:13] classrooms
[00:05:14] in ways we hadn't seen before.
[00:05:16] But also we had like seven and 80 year olds cutting themselves, doing self-harm threats. Uh, kids that, you know, seventh and eighth grade talk about depression in ways that they hadn't. So
[00:05:25] we know that
[00:05:26] something
[00:05:26] shifted at, initially, we attributed it to the pandemic. This is 2022 we're talking about.
[00:05:32] As we
[00:05:33] got further from that and we got more into post pandemic life, we saw that those things weren't subsiding and that there were some other things tied to it as well that were going on.
[00:05:42] Not just academically, but also communication wise and social emotionally. So I think that, um. That we saw that something had tipped in the kids and the pandemic was a huge tipping point. As we got further into the research, we found that really it started prior to
[00:05:58] that.
[00:05:59] Bart: Could you talk a little bit more about when you realized that technology was moving from augmenting instruction to replacing it?
[00:06:06] Frank: I mean, we've been working in schools for together for 20, going on 22
[00:06:10] years.
[00:06:11] when,
[00:06:11] when schools first started bringing technology, I mean, I was a teacher in the 1990s and she was a
[00:06:16] teacher in
[00:06:16] the 1980s
[00:06:17] and we had, you know, like one laptop or one, one, uh, one
[00:06:20] desktop
[00:06:21] and you played
[00:06:22] Oregon Trail
[00:06:23] on it or whatever.
[00:06:24] Uh, you use it for word processing.
[00:06:26] In
[00:06:27] the early two thousands, we started seeing, you know, three or four or five
[00:06:31] imax
[00:06:32] uh, and we talk about this in the book, the evolution of that, how those then got replaced by
[00:06:37] laptop. And then the Chromebook card came in
[00:06:41] as broadband expanded, at some point in about
[00:06:44] 2014. I think that's a
[00:06:45] hinge point for us in our book and other books about this as well. In the work by Jonathan Hyde and Johann Hari, about 2014, there was some sort of tipping point where like all of a sudden all the hardware was in place and what happened right at that point? If you think back to it historically, and we talk about this I think in chapter one, that No Child Left Behind went away at the end of 2015.
[00:07:09] Um,
[00:07:09] and what came in to replace it, um, essa, every Student Succeeds Act was a lot more, you know, like personally tailored instruction, less accountability on, on assessments. Not
[00:07:20] that. You know,
[00:07:22] drug
[00:07:22] coding accountability is great either. But once that
[00:07:24] shift
[00:07:25] happened,
[00:07:25] through the
[00:07:26] E-Rate, um, funding happened where funding exploded to where every district could have broadband and be able to have 30 Chromebooks on at the same time in every
[00:07:36] classroom.
[00:07:37] Once those things happened, there was like just this surge of programs that came into classrooms. And so I think the tipping point was probably 20 16, 20 17. We didn't realize that at the
[00:07:49] time, I think
[00:07:50] we realized that after the fact that wait a minute, what's happening here? And so we shifted in our own programs.
[00:07:55] We've shifted away from that into like more just interacting with each other type of work because we've seen the shift happen in the school day, in the afterschool programs and as a result of COVID. So I think all of those things together really kind of brought it
[00:08:10] together.
[00:08:11] Gene Tavernetti: And then I think for me, as I was working with, with schools, during COVID, I mean basically I thought I was retired on, you know, March 13th, 2000, and when,
[00:08:23] uh.
[00:08:24] The interest from the districts were, okay, can you coach us in how to do this distance
[00:08:30] learning how, how to do, how to do this, this virtual learning. And so, the schools got so wrapped up in that, how do we, how do we continue to provide services
[00:08:41] to kids,
[00:08:41] even though they knew they weren't doing a good job, but
[00:08:45] because
[00:08:45] of the things that, Frank had talked about.
[00:08:47] I mean, there were some schools that would just check out the Chromebooks. So the kids had, uh, they were available for lessons, and they did the best they could during that process. But when they came back, the teachers didn't give
[00:09:01] it
[00:09:01] up. The
[00:09:02] teachers, it was almost like they were doing the same type of virtual lessons, but in person with
[00:09:06] the kids.
[00:09:07] And so they are the ones that weren't giving up The laptops and the Chromebooks when we, when we came back. so even though stuff was happening before the pandemic, that distance learning, that
[00:09:19] whole,
[00:09:20] way to look at, that distance learning really made an impact on, on moving forward. So
[00:09:26] that
[00:09:26] really.
[00:09:28] that really
[00:09:28] showed me the captivity part.
[00:09:30] They were, they were captive at that point.
[00:09:33] Bart: So in a sense, the pandemic didn't create the problem, it accelerated it. What became normalized that should have remained temporary?
[00:09:41] Frank: I mean,
[00:09:42] I think
[00:09:42] education being transactional. We talk about this as well
[00:09:47] in the book,
[00:09:47] how, to me,
[00:09:48] uh, to bar to, to jean, to you, um, who are lifelong educators.
[00:09:52] education is
[00:09:53] transformational.
[00:09:54] And at that point
[00:09:56] out of necessity, I mean, we understand we were working in schools. We were all working in schools at the time on March 13th,
[00:10:01] like,
[00:10:02] like Jean mentioned, um, it became transactional. We had to have some sense of normalcy for
[00:10:07] the kiddos. And so
[00:10:08] we transitioned into,
[00:10:10] um, into the Zoom learning and to, you know, Google meets learning.
[00:10:15] Some of that never went away. We, um, walk into classrooms now. I think what differentiates our book, uh, from others that are really, that are really well written, but what differentiates us is that we're actually in classrooms. We were in classrooms together yesterday.
[00:10:27] Um, we were in 22 classrooms yesterday. I sat and planned lessons with teachers on Monday. Gene tomorrow is gonna go back and observe classrooms, uh, at a high school. And what we notice is there is such a plethora of material.
[00:10:43] There
[00:10:43] are so many companies that are vying for that digital dollar. You know, that it overwhelms teachers' decision making.
[00:10:51] And I
[00:10:51] think what's happened is that it's become like almost, too much riches. And I think that's what instead of, instead of like really thinking about what am I trying to achieve with this lesson,
[00:11:02] um, it's
[00:11:03] become more like, what of all these offerings that I can have digitally can the kids partake in?
[00:11:09] And I think that is what should have gone away that didn't go
[00:11:12] away.
[00:11:13] Bart: So based on all your observations, what most concerns you post pandemic?
[00:11:18] Gene Tavernetti: I think it goes back to things that we were doing 20 years ago. Just, you know, how do we present lessons? Well, and the way we always talked about, uh, instruction is in
[00:11:30] a well-designed, a well-designed lesson, which includes those transformational
[00:11:35] elements that, that
[00:11:36] Frank was talking about. So there is the teacher is leading. Students in conversation, in structured conversation, in lots of checking for understanding, in lots of, uh, making sure that the, the kids are paying attention, which, which wasn't happening again, uh, during, during the pandemic, and which just was just assumed when you had the Chromebook out. you know, going back to some foundational things that, that, the research that we're, that we're looking at, I mean, it started in the fifties, sixties, that nothing's been disputed,
[00:12:09] but,
[00:12:10] uh, in this ageist society, there's just no, there is no, uh, institutional memory
[00:12:16] for stuff,
[00:12:17] you know, every, every 15 years.
[00:12:19] It seems like we're starting brand new,
[00:12:22] brand
[00:12:22] new. The things that we started out doing when we were working together, talking about, uh,
[00:12:26] using, uh, mini whiteboards, you know, to check for understanding. It's like we go back again. And never heard of it. Oh. Oh, really? Where did these come
[00:12:36] from?
[00:12:36] And so, uh, I, I, I think, you know, a lot of what we talk about in the book is, is, has been foundational since the eighties.
[00:12:46] Frank: I think, if I can piggyback on that, I think obviously those are all like classroom based concerns and a hundred percent I agree with 'em. I was telling, uh, Jean yesterday about a post that I came across, um, recently, and it said, it was a post-it
[00:12:59] that I wrote in 2015
[00:13:00] and I found it in a closet
[00:13:02] somewhere.
[00:13:03] And
[00:13:03] it said in 2000, and I wrote this in 2015, in 2005, we were working
[00:13:06] with teachers on using whiteboards
[00:13:08] to check for
[00:13:08] understanding.
[00:13:10] In 2015,
[00:13:11] we're working with
[00:13:12] teachers on using whiteboards to check
[00:13:14] for understanding.
[00:13:14] And the question is, in 2025, we'll be using whiteboards. And the answer was, yeah, that's what we were working on last
[00:13:21] year.
[00:13:21] You know,
[00:13:22] uh, so it's, it's like gene's talking about, it's like the stuff just goes away. In the book, we talk about, um, two really well-known metaphors in education. One is a Rip Van
[00:13:30] Winkle, you
[00:13:32] know, going to sleep and waking up a hundred years later. And he wakes up and he recognizes nothing. He looks around, he sees airports and he sees, you know, cars and everything.
[00:13:39] He's got no idea what anything is until he walks into a
[00:13:42] school and then
[00:13:43] he feels like, oh, I recognize this, this is a school. Right? So that's one we talk about, but we also talk about the pendulum. And the pendulum is actually even more well known in these, just these dramatic swings in practice. now we're seeing some backlash, I think.
[00:13:58] And just in the last three days there's been a, an article in the New York Times, About, um, you know, iPads in kindergarten and parents starting to rebel against that. That was yesterday,
[00:14:08] the, the 10th.
[00:14:09] Uh, on Friday. On Monday there was an article in education, uh, next, and it talked about, um, it, it was, uh, called logged in, tuned Out regarding middle school and high school students.
[00:14:21] They're on their Chromebooks. They tune out and we see that in practice when we're in the classrooms like we were yesterday. And there was another article by the, the gentleman who wrote a Digital Delusion, which is kind of a
[00:14:30] companion,
[00:14:31] not a companion, but a complimentary book to ours. And he pat some data about how as schools locked in to more and more digital, the nap scores kind of just hit a plateau and then have, have,
[00:14:44] uh, fallen over the last, over the last 10 years.
[00:14:47] So that's all instructionally. And
[00:14:49] so what we're seeing now is this pendulum possibly swinging back the other way towards, uh. Yeah,
[00:14:55] like do away with
[00:14:57] the screens. Well, you can't do that. You know, kids need to be able to interact with technology in a healthy way and which is what we talked about, just having balance.
[00:15:04] but I wanna go back to what Jim was talking about in your
[00:15:06] question about what most scares you. And I'll
[00:15:09] tell you what most scares me is, is broader, actually the
[00:15:13] schools,
[00:15:14] um, Johann Hari and still focus talks about this. Jonathan Hyde talks about an actions generation, but I think to me, the ones that even hit it more on the head are Nicholas Carr,
[00:15:22] like
[00:15:22] in Super Bloom and, um, Timothy Wu and, in, uh, attention Merchants, and even going back to Neil Postman, uh, in the 1980s,
[00:15:31] um,
[00:15:32] about how if adult attention spans and ability to
[00:15:36] focus and communicate well. And have multiple perspectives. If those are going
[00:15:41] downhill, then what happens to the next
[00:15:44] generation? You know? And we talk about that in the book, like a second grader or a third grader who's being acclimated to more and more intensification as far as what will get their attention more and more gamification.
[00:15:58] What
[00:15:58] will they need in the fourth grade when the fourth, they need more because a dopamine rush just won't be the same, right? So you keep on accelerating and augmenting that. What happens when those kids become, you know, voting age? And what we're getting is very disposable. Attention
[00:16:13] spans, I think
[00:16:14] is how I would refer to it.
[00:16:16] And I think that's what scares me the most is how do we tackle the huge issues we have, not just in the country, but in the world when we have. A citizenry in 20 years
[00:16:27] who have attention spans of 1920 seconds, which
[00:16:30] is what the research shows. Most recently, they can, you know, college students in a,
[00:16:34] I think
[00:16:34] it was a 2023 study, they have attention spans of about 20 seconds. People our age are about two and a half
[00:16:40] minutes, but we grew up analog, Right? What happens when today's second grader
[00:16:46] is in college? What will the attention span be then? And
[00:16:48] when they're running the
[00:16:48] country? So
[00:16:49] I think that's what scares me even more globally than
[00:16:52] what's going on in the classrooms.
[00:16:53] Gene Tavernetti: And And I think something that also
[00:16:56] is scary is talking about the, um, the different timeframes.
[00:16:59] 10 years, 15
[00:17:00] years,
[00:17:01] you know? So now we have, uh, teachers, teachers and administrators who since this is so normal, they don't see any dangers. You know, they have to be, they have to be pointed out. But once they're pointed out, it's very, it's very clear, you know, that you walk into a classroom and all the laptops are up.
[00:17:19] You know, we know the teacher can't see, you know, they're, oh sure there's a monitoring program, but it's just not, it's just not the same. And so, so much has been normalized and, and it's very difficult, you know, we'll do a staff development, we'll do a training for administrators, and we have to tell 'em, shut your laptops, you know, get off your phone.
[00:17:39] And that's
[00:17:40] what, that's the,
[00:17:40] what we're talking about is, is that issue with kids. So, so it is, uh, bigger than schools, like you say, it's, it's, adults really have to really have to follow that lead and first of all, acknowledge that they're there as well. Yeah. And that it's not okay. We want things to be okay.
[00:17:58] It's not okay. Uh, but, but we're also competing with, technology companies that are, you know, funded by billionaires and,
[00:18:07] and it's just the promises that
[00:18:09] they,
[00:18:09] that
[00:18:09] they make,
[00:18:10] uh,
[00:18:11] they're
[00:18:11] too seductive.
[00:18:13] Frank: Tim w talks about this in attention merchants, how things that have become
[00:18:15] normalized,
[00:18:16] that
[00:18:16] were not
[00:18:16] like
[00:18:17] having
[00:18:18] a
[00:18:18] phone at the dinner table that just was not
[00:18:20] the
[00:18:20] norm
[00:18:20] before.
[00:18:21] Right. Or, you
[00:18:22] know, back in the,
[00:18:23] maybe early
[00:18:24] 2010s, if the phone rang at
[00:18:26] church,
[00:18:28] you know, the priest might make a joke about it.
[00:18:30] Oh, God's calling. You know, now it's like something
[00:18:33] you expect
[00:18:33] the
[00:18:34] phones
[00:18:34] to
[00:18:34] ring in
[00:18:34] church and it's,
[00:18:35] and
[00:18:35] there shouldn't be,
[00:18:37] but it's become like,
[00:18:38] just
[00:18:38] normalized, like, like Chino was
[00:18:39] talking
[00:18:40] about.
[00:18:40] So I
[00:18:40] think
[00:18:41] in,
[00:18:41] uh, in chapter four
[00:18:43] we
[00:18:43] talk
[00:18:43] about,
[00:18:44] um, creating a
[00:18:45] a filter in classrooms for
[00:18:47] friction
[00:18:48] just
[00:18:48] to
[00:18:48] slow down and to be
[00:18:50] more thoughtful
[00:18:51] about
[00:18:51] what
[00:18:51] we
[00:18:51] bring
[00:18:51] into classrooms.
[00:18:52] When
[00:18:53] you're
[00:18:53] thinking
[00:18:53] about
[00:18:53] a textbook adoption,
[00:18:54] it takes about a year and a half, right? To, to adopt a textbook. You have to put it out to all the different stakeholders.
[00:19:01] You have public
[00:19:01] viewings of it, you know, do a seance
[00:19:04] over it.
[00:19:05] And to finally
[00:19:06] adopt
[00:19:07] a
[00:19:07] curriculum.
[00:19:08] Or
[00:19:09] I can just go online and download an app and have it in front of kids, you know, in a heartbeat. And, and there's ways
[00:19:14] to work
[00:19:14] around
[00:19:15] district,
[00:19:16] you know,
[00:19:16] district, uh,
[00:19:17] filters and such. So
[00:19:18] we talk about that,
[00:19:19] in chapter four
[00:19:20] of the book.
[00:19:21] We also talk about
[00:19:22] how
[00:19:22] this happened
[00:19:23] in classrooms, in schools within
[00:19:25] a
[00:19:26] broader digital
[00:19:26] immersion. It
[00:19:27] didn't happen in
[00:19:29] isolation. So
[00:19:30] I think
[00:19:30] part
[00:19:30] of what happened is because
[00:19:31] we were all
[00:19:32] learning
[00:19:33] how to to shop
[00:19:35] and be entertained
[00:19:36] and book our travel and use Google
[00:19:39] Maps
[00:19:40] and such,
[00:19:41] we didn't notice the
[00:19:42] same thing
[00:19:42] was
[00:19:42] going on
[00:19:43] in schools.
[00:19:44] And that's partly
[00:19:44] why
[00:19:44] it snuck up
[00:19:45] on us, I
[00:19:45] think.
[00:19:45] And
[00:19:46] it wasn't,
[00:19:47] uh, I think
[00:19:47] maybe it was Johann Hari
[00:19:48] who
[00:19:48] talks
[00:19:49] about it, um, in stolen focus. That,
[00:19:51] what
[00:19:51] COVID did. It's
[00:19:52] almost like that frog
[00:19:53] that's
[00:19:53] boiling in the,
[00:19:54] you
[00:19:54] know, in
[00:19:55] the water.
[00:19:55] And it's turning up
[00:19:56] really slowly
[00:19:58] and it
[00:19:58] doesn't
[00:19:58] realize What's happening
[00:20:00] to it.
[00:20:01] What
[00:20:01] COVID
[00:20:01] did was it turned
[00:20:02] the
[00:20:02] heat
[00:20:03] up really
[00:20:03] fast so that all of a sudden those of us that were able
[00:20:05] to step out of it afterwards realized,
[00:20:07] Hey, something's happened
[00:20:09] here.
[00:20:09] That
[00:20:09] isn't good. and
[00:20:10] I think
[00:20:10] that's
[00:20:11] what's,
[00:20:11] you know, what's led us on this path. We started talking about
[00:20:13] this
[00:20:13] three years ago. Uh, and I'm
[00:20:14] glad to,
[00:20:15] to
[00:20:15] see
[00:20:15] that there's
[00:20:16] more, I think voices
[00:20:17] out
[00:20:18] there now saying the same thing.
[00:20:20] Bart: I also hear from teachers who report declines in working memory, sustained attention and task persistence. What does the research say about what's happening cognitively?
[00:20:30] Gene Tavernetti: Well,
[00:20:30] in digital delusions, uh,
[00:20:33] uh, there's a lot of data that that just shows
[00:20:37] declining.
[00:20:38] Declining cognitively. I mean, he's pretty, he's pretty bold in how he, how he says that he doesn't talk about a, a learning
[00:20:45] loss, but
[00:20:46] he just, you know, he's got data that, that
[00:20:48] show
[00:20:49] where the, you know, this is the first generation that, that is not doing as well as the prior generation, or
[00:20:55] at
[00:20:55] least
[00:20:55] as
[00:20:56] well. so
[00:20:57] so
[00:20:57] there's evidence, there's evidence out there, and it's, it's
[00:21:00] pretty
[00:21:00] indisputable.
[00:21:02] Frank: Uh, and I
[00:21:02] think, I
[00:21:03] think
[00:21:03] he,
[00:21:03] um, he talked about that
[00:21:05] this generation is
[00:21:06] the
[00:21:06] first one that is
[00:21:07] like the,
[00:21:08] the
[00:21:09] IQ
[00:21:09] is actually lower than the parents' generation by about six points in the
[00:21:13] last 120 years. More recently, just
[00:21:16] on, on Monday. I think he came out with that article that showed where
[00:21:19] the
[00:21:19] NA scores have
[00:21:20] dropped
[00:21:20] over time.
[00:21:21] But I think, so
[00:21:22] that's
[00:21:23] cognitively, but I think what we're seeing is even
[00:21:25] at
[00:21:25] the precognitive
[00:21:26] level, even
[00:21:27] things like, like holding
[00:21:29] information and working
[00:21:30] memory.
[00:21:31] And being able to carry it from that center to that center that has dropped off, you know, or
[00:21:37] things like, uh, being able to
[00:21:39] lock in to what's on the board and then bringing that information down and copying
[00:21:44] it
[00:21:44] and
[00:21:44] writing down
[00:21:45] here
[00:21:46] and
[00:21:46] then looking back up again.
[00:21:47] That has dropped handwriting, you know, because of,
[00:21:51] we run
[00:21:51] school programs,
[00:21:52] we
[00:21:53] have,
[00:21:53] you know,
[00:21:53] students do
[00:21:54] things
[00:21:54] and
[00:21:54] so we have
[00:21:55] instant reports
[00:21:56] that kiddos write And
[00:21:58] we actually have really
[00:21:58] good data. Going
[00:21:59] back and comparing
[00:22:00] handwriting
[00:22:01] from 2014
[00:22:02] with handwriting
[00:22:03] from
[00:22:03] 2024 is dramatically different.
[00:22:06] Handwriting of a second
[00:22:07] grader
[00:22:08] in
[00:22:09] 2014
[00:22:10] is about
[00:22:10] equivalent with
[00:22:11] handwriting
[00:22:11] from
[00:22:12] a
[00:22:12] fourth
[00:22:12] grader now.
[00:22:13] So there, that's fine. Motor skills that are being lost as well. So it is,
[00:22:17] there's those things you
[00:22:17] can see that you can
[00:22:18] measure. and
[00:22:19] then there's
[00:22:20] things that
[00:22:21] unless
[00:22:21] you're
[00:22:21] looking
[00:22:21] for them,
[00:22:23] you know, you don't necessarily see it.
[00:22:24] And so we talk about
[00:22:25] a little bit of this
[00:22:25] in
[00:22:25] chapter six.
[00:22:27] We talk
[00:22:27] about how.
[00:22:29] It's
[00:22:29] not
[00:22:29] enough
[00:22:29] to just
[00:22:30] focus on
[00:22:30] schools.
[00:22:30] You know,
[00:22:31] kiddos
[00:22:31] are in
[00:22:31] schools
[00:22:32] about
[00:22:33] 12%
[00:22:33] of the calendar
[00:22:34] year,
[00:22:35] The calendar year is
[00:22:35] 8,700
[00:22:36] hours and the kids spend about
[00:22:38] 11
[00:22:38] or
[00:22:38] 1200 of it in
[00:22:40] So
[00:22:40] what
[00:22:41] happens to
[00:22:41] the
[00:22:41] other
[00:22:41] 6,000
[00:22:42] hours
[00:22:42] or 7,000 hours?
[00:22:43] so
[00:22:43] part of
[00:22:44] that is,
[00:22:45] is working
[00:22:46] at
[00:22:46] the superintendent and principal
[00:22:48] level,
[00:22:48] at school leader level, board level, working with everything from
[00:22:52] prenatal
[00:22:54] education
[00:22:55] providers
[00:22:56] to,
[00:22:57] you know, colleges
[00:22:58] and, and really taking a community effort.
[00:23:00] Because
[00:23:01] what's happening
[00:23:01] in schools is
[00:23:02] only 12% of the year. It's
[00:23:04] what's happening
[00:23:05] outside of it.
[00:23:05] Right. So
[00:23:06] in
[00:23:06] our afterschool programs and our summer programs, we've actually really done away, unless the kids
[00:23:10] are
[00:23:10] doing
[00:23:10] Lego
[00:23:11] robotics, because we
[00:23:12] do want them
[00:23:12] engineering and thinking in that way, unless they're doing that or they have homework on their Chromebooks,
[00:23:17] they're
[00:23:18] basically
[00:23:18] not on screens at all. They're interacting
[00:23:20] with each other and.
[00:23:22] We put
[00:23:22] in
[00:23:22] place
[00:23:22] a couple of
[00:23:23] things that we talk about in the book. One's called pencil practice, where they're actually learning how to transfer information,
[00:23:29] how
[00:23:29] to
[00:23:30] shift
[00:23:30] and lock their focus.
[00:23:32] We put
[00:23:32] in place like learning centers for them
[00:23:34] to
[00:23:34] have
[00:23:34] to memorize
[00:23:36] the
[00:23:36] directions
[00:23:37] over
[00:23:37] there are
[00:23:37] such, and then I'm gonna do that for
[00:23:39] five minutes and
[00:23:39] then
[00:23:40] go over
[00:23:40] there
[00:23:41] and
[00:23:41] have
[00:23:41] a different set
[00:23:41] of directions.
[00:23:42] 'cause they're not getting
[00:23:43] a chance to
[00:23:43] practice that when they're just going from one app
[00:23:46] to
[00:23:46] the
[00:23:46] next
[00:23:47] on their
[00:23:47] screens.
[00:23:48] And
[00:23:48] so
[00:23:49] there's a
[00:23:49] cognitive decline,
[00:23:50] you know, measured
[00:23:51] by test scores
[00:23:51] and such. But then below that,
[00:23:53] below that,
[00:23:54] there's
[00:23:54] a precognitive
[00:23:55] skills that we're really worried
[00:23:56] about. and We can
[00:23:57] think about
[00:23:57] ourselves.
[00:23:58] you know,
[00:23:58] memorizing phone
[00:23:59] numbers.
[00:24:00] We used to know thirty, forty, fifty phone numbers. Now
[00:24:02] we
[00:24:02] know like
[00:24:02] maybe
[00:24:03] three, and, and Nicholas Carr talked about
[00:24:05] this
[00:24:05] in
[00:24:05] the
[00:24:06] shallows.
[00:24:06] Very early
[00:24:07] book
[00:24:07] 2010,
[00:24:09] talked
[00:24:09] about William James
[00:24:10] an American
[00:24:10] psychologist
[00:24:11] who
[00:24:12] compared learning, um, to, you
[00:24:15] know,
[00:24:15] water
[00:24:16] cutting
[00:24:16] through
[00:24:16] the sand
[00:24:18] and how water
[00:24:19] cuts through a sand
[00:24:19] and
[00:24:20] it
[00:24:20] creates
[00:24:20] a channel. So the next
[00:24:22] time
[00:24:22] water
[00:24:22] comes the same
[00:24:23] way, it'll probably find that channel, right? Same thing's going on with neural pathways. It's making those channels deeper and deeper
[00:24:29] and deeper.
[00:24:30] And so once you practice certain things, like
[00:24:33] not
[00:24:33] memorizing
[00:24:34] phone numbers guess
[00:24:36] what
[00:24:36] your brain's gonna
[00:24:36] do? Not memorize that phone number, especially if it knows
[00:24:39] it doesn't
[00:24:39] need
[00:24:40] to.
[00:24:40] And that's
[00:24:41] not,
[00:24:41] not as necessary,
[00:24:42] but things
[00:24:43] like
[00:24:43] having,
[00:24:44] awareness about the environment. Like one of the things that
[00:24:47] we
[00:24:47] noticed
[00:24:47] very early
[00:24:48] on
[00:24:49] with
[00:24:49] our
[00:24:49] staff applicants, you know, again, our 20, 21,
[00:24:52] 22 year olds, is we
[00:24:53] would
[00:24:53] ask
[00:24:54] them,
[00:24:54] um, where do you
[00:24:56] live?
[00:24:58] Like
[00:24:58] the address,
[00:24:59] the cross streets.
[00:25:00] And
[00:25:00] the
[00:25:00] reason we needed to know that is so we
[00:25:01] knew like
[00:25:02] what schools
[00:25:02] to place in that, because we had like 35 schools
[00:25:04] they didn't
[00:25:05] know the cross streets.
[00:25:06] I
[00:25:07] live
[00:25:07] over by
[00:25:07] the Circle K.
[00:25:08] Like
[00:25:08] what do you mean the circle
[00:25:09] K
[00:25:09] by the Circle
[00:25:10] K
[00:25:10] behind the nail salon.
[00:25:11] Like we have a lot of nail salons, you know, like you need
[00:25:13] to know
[00:25:14] how
[00:25:15] do you find yourself in
[00:25:18] a
[00:25:18] three
[00:25:18] dimensional
[00:25:18] space
[00:25:19] if you don't
[00:25:20] have that sense of space of geography? So
[00:25:22] I think
[00:25:23] what we're
[00:25:23] losing
[00:25:24] goes
[00:25:25] well
[00:25:25] beyond
[00:25:25] cognitive into like some sociocognitive things that
[00:25:28] make
[00:25:28] us
[00:25:28] be able
[00:25:29] to,
[00:25:29] to, function.
[00:25:31] Gene Tavernetti: And I think without an awareness of what,
[00:25:33] what Frank's
[00:25:34] talking about, we look for technology
[00:25:37] to help us
[00:25:38] get out of that.
[00:25:38] So, so, and I think again, that's where these, these vendors are so good. Oh, you have a problem. Your kids aren't performing well in this.
[00:25:45] We got an app.
[00:25:46] We
[00:25:46] got
[00:25:46] a platform. And so again, the
[00:25:49] the irony is, really
[00:25:51] shows the captivity. Like, like, we've got a
[00:25:54] problem
[00:25:54] caused by this, but the same people are gonna help pull us out, which doesn't happen.
[00:26:00] Bart: Could you explain screen inferiority in reading comprehension?
[00:26:06] Frank: Yeah.
[00:26:06] So Johann Hari
[00:26:07] talks about
[00:26:07] that in
[00:26:08] stolen focus.
[00:26:09] Um,
[00:26:09] and it's, there's
[00:26:10] quite
[00:26:10] a
[00:26:10] few studies
[00:26:11] by
[00:26:12] now
[00:26:12] that
[00:26:12] have shown it that,
[00:26:13] because
[00:26:14] when
[00:26:14] we read,
[00:26:15] we
[00:26:15] are
[00:26:15] tracking
[00:26:16] left
[00:26:16] to
[00:26:16] right,
[00:26:17] right?
[00:26:18] And
[00:26:18] if
[00:26:18] we're
[00:26:19] reading
[00:26:19] a book, things don't pop
[00:26:20] out at you. You're not expecting
[00:26:22] things
[00:26:22] to
[00:26:22] pop out
[00:26:23] at you.
[00:26:24] Um, there's
[00:26:25] a tactile connection.
[00:26:26] There's, There's, a connection to the
[00:26:28] brain
[00:26:28] that
[00:26:28] is different
[00:26:29] than when we
[00:26:30] read on
[00:26:30] screens.
[00:26:31] When
[00:26:31] we
[00:26:31] read on
[00:26:31] screens,
[00:26:32] we're reading, uh, we're skimming and scanning
[00:26:34] more.
[00:26:35] We're expecting
[00:26:36] more things to,
[00:26:37] to be
[00:26:37] going on with
[00:26:38] the, with the,
[00:26:39] the
[00:26:39] text around
[00:26:40] it. And
[00:26:41] so
[00:26:41] what his.
[00:26:42] Book
[00:26:42] shows
[00:26:44] is
[00:26:44] that
[00:26:44] by the time the
[00:26:45] kids
[00:26:45] are in
[00:26:45] third grade,
[00:26:47] um, there's about,
[00:26:48] about a two thirds of
[00:26:49] a
[00:26:49] year loss if they're
[00:26:51] reading
[00:26:51] primarily
[00:26:52] on screens
[00:26:53] versus reading
[00:26:53] primarily,
[00:26:55] on text.
[00:26:56] and
[00:26:56] then that,
[00:26:56] that carries, you know, that carries, and we
[00:26:58] see that
[00:26:59] there's actually
[00:26:59] a,
[00:26:59] an
[00:27:00] article in,
[00:27:01] um, I'm sorry, not an article, a quote in the book
[00:27:04] from
[00:27:04] a
[00:27:04] teacher,
[00:27:06] who,
[00:27:06] you know, she
[00:27:07] taught
[00:27:07] for
[00:27:07] 37 years college, a
[00:27:09] reading
[00:27:09] specialist
[00:27:10] and a
[00:27:10] college professor. And,
[00:27:12] uh,
[00:27:12] she, in a
[00:27:13] college class,
[00:27:13] she would
[00:27:14] give
[00:27:14] the, the students
[00:27:15] first
[00:27:16] day
[00:27:16] of class,
[00:27:17] a
[00:27:17] fourth
[00:27:17] to sixth
[00:27:18] grade text
[00:27:19] just
[00:27:19] to see where they were.
[00:27:20] And she
[00:27:21] said that
[00:27:21] over the
[00:27:22] course
[00:27:22] of
[00:27:22] the last 10
[00:27:23] years,
[00:27:23] there's been a
[00:27:24] steady decline.
[00:27:25] And their
[00:27:26] ability
[00:27:26] to read college students' ability to read
[00:27:28] fourth
[00:27:28] to sixth grade text because
[00:27:30] they're
[00:27:30] very good
[00:27:31] at skimming
[00:27:31] and scanning.
[00:27:32] They're
[00:27:32] not as
[00:27:33] good as
[00:27:33] that linear
[00:27:34] reading
[00:27:35] and that
[00:27:35] internalizing of
[00:27:37] it, I mean,
[00:27:37] so it's, it's numbers, it's numerical, you know,
[00:27:39] Johann Hari
[00:27:40] talks about that,
[00:27:41] but we
[00:27:41] see it every day
[00:27:42] and
[00:27:42] we see
[00:27:42] it with,
[00:27:43] you know, like, like
[00:27:44] Kathy
[00:27:44] did in the
[00:27:46] Gene Tavernetti: you
[00:27:46] know. And
[00:27:46] I think also some of the, some
[00:27:48] of
[00:27:48] the interventions for students, older students who aren't,
[00:27:52] uh,
[00:27:52] reading
[00:27:52] well are based on, you know,
[00:27:56] having this
[00:27:56] book
[00:27:56] in front
[00:27:57] of them.
[00:27:57] Be learning how to annotate, learning how to ask questions, learning how to, uh, uh, read for prosody. I mean,
[00:28:05] you know, all of
[00:28:06] these
[00:28:06] things.
[00:28:07] Can't
[00:28:07] do
[00:28:07] it with
[00:28:07] a screen.
[00:28:08] You just,
[00:28:09] you
[00:28:09] just can't. Uh, big, a big push now
[00:28:12] is to get
[00:28:12] novels back into, into, secondary
[00:28:15] classroom or in all
[00:28:15] classrooms. And again, that
[00:28:17] has
[00:28:17] to be, you gotta be holding,
[00:28:19] you gotta be holding
[00:28:20] that paper and that paper book
[00:28:22] to
[00:28:22] be able to do it. So
[00:28:24] I, I think there are just some
[00:28:26] things that screens
[00:28:27] you
[00:28:27] can't
[00:28:28] do
[00:28:28] we just have to
[00:28:29] fess up to that.
[00:28:30] Frank: There's a
[00:28:31] um, uh,
[00:28:33] Barbara King
[00:28:33] Solver's book, the Bean Trees,
[00:28:36] came
[00:28:36] out like in 88 or so, 89, and it's like, it's been passed on in my family. Every, everybody's
[00:28:41] read
[00:28:41] it 'cause I have to read it
[00:28:41] in
[00:28:42] school '
[00:28:42] cause she's from Tucson.
[00:28:43] And I went to U of
[00:28:44] A
[00:28:44] and then my son had to read it. My daughter, I had
[00:28:46] to
[00:28:46] read it.
[00:28:47] Now my
[00:28:47] youngest
[00:28:48] is reading it and I came,
[00:28:49] came
[00:28:49] into
[00:28:50] a
[00:28:50] room
[00:28:50] last week
[00:28:51] and she was
[00:28:52] listening to
[00:28:52] a,
[00:28:53] something
[00:28:53] being read.
[00:28:55] And then I
[00:28:55] looked at her
[00:28:56] and she's got the book
[00:28:57] in
[00:28:57] her
[00:28:57] hand.
[00:28:57] It's the
[00:28:57] bean Trees.
[00:28:59] Um, and
[00:28:59] I said,
[00:29:00] what, what are
[00:29:00] you
[00:29:01] doing
[00:29:01] there?
[00:29:01] And she said, I'm
[00:29:02] I'm reading a
[00:29:03] book.
[00:29:03] And
[00:29:03] I said,
[00:29:03] no, you're not
[00:29:04] reading.
[00:29:04] YouTube
[00:29:05] is reading. And she
[00:29:06] said,
[00:29:06] well,
[00:29:06] I'm
[00:29:07] following along.
[00:29:08] And she's
[00:29:08] like,
[00:29:08] but look,
[00:29:09] I've annotated
[00:29:10] it.
[00:29:10] So she
[00:29:11] understood
[00:29:12] that really
[00:29:13] she
[00:29:13] had to have some sort
[00:29:14] of
[00:29:14] tactile
[00:29:14] connection
[00:29:15] to it.
[00:29:16] But I told her, you know, you need to actually
[00:29:19] be doing the
[00:29:19] effort.
[00:29:20] Of
[00:29:21] having
[00:29:21] your brain make
[00:29:22] those,
[00:29:22] make
[00:29:23] that
[00:29:23] decoding,
[00:29:23] and then,
[00:29:24] and
[00:29:24] then turn that into
[00:29:24] comprehension. because otherwise
[00:29:26] it's not
[00:29:27] the
[00:29:27] same
[00:29:27] level,
[00:29:28] not the same level of comprehension. So,
[00:29:29] even
[00:29:30] kids
[00:29:30] who are like,
[00:29:31] you know, pretty bright
[00:29:32] and
[00:29:32] doing
[00:29:32] the work,
[00:29:33] even
[00:29:33] the
[00:29:33] tactile
[00:29:34] work of
[00:29:34] it
[00:29:35] will
[00:29:35] fall, fall
[00:29:36] into
[00:29:36] those traps
[00:29:37] of
[00:29:37] what's
[00:29:38] the
[00:29:38] easiest way
[00:29:38] to do like Gene
[00:29:40] was saying,
[00:29:41] the,
[00:29:41] the
[00:29:41] digital
[00:29:42] companies
[00:29:43] will say, here,
[00:29:43] we'll help
[00:29:44] you
[00:29:44] do
[00:29:44] it.
[00:29:45] So
[00:29:45] like
[00:29:45] in our programs
[00:29:46] after
[00:29:46] school,
[00:29:46] we've told
[00:29:47] them,
[00:29:47] we
[00:29:48] don't
[00:29:48] want
[00:29:48] you reading
[00:29:49] on, you
[00:29:50] know, on
[00:29:50] the screen
[00:29:51] anymore.
[00:29:52] Take the
[00:29:52] kids
[00:29:52] outside,
[00:29:53] sit under a
[00:29:53] tree and read
[00:29:54] a book
[00:29:55] for
[00:29:55] the same
[00:29:55] reason. They
[00:29:55] need
[00:29:56] to
[00:29:56] hear the
[00:29:56] modeling and
[00:29:57] they need to, they need to make that connection
[00:29:59] in a way
[00:29:59] that we
[00:30:00] walk
[00:30:00] into
[00:30:01] kindergarten
[00:30:01] classroom sometimes
[00:30:02] and
[00:30:03] kids
[00:30:03] dunno how to
[00:30:03] turn a page '
[00:30:04] cause
[00:30:04] they're
[00:30:04] so used to just swiping,
[00:30:06] you know, On the iPad. So there's
[00:30:07] something being lost there for sure.
[00:30:10] Bart: Why are lower achieving students seeing the steepest declines?
[00:30:13] Gene Tavernetti: It
[00:30:14] gets back
[00:30:15] to,
[00:30:15] um,
[00:30:17] uh, instruction. I mean,
[00:30:18] it,
[00:30:18] it's hard
[00:30:19] not to
[00:30:20] leave instruction as, as the most
[00:30:22] important variable,
[00:30:23] which, which I think research, again,
[00:30:25] for the past
[00:30:26] 50, 60 years. That's one of the, that's one of the, the primary, variables.
[00:30:30] And,
[00:30:31] and
[00:30:31] to be honest,
[00:30:33] it's
[00:30:34] how to teach
[00:30:35] is
[00:30:35] not
[00:30:36] taught
[00:30:37] in
[00:30:37] programs
[00:30:38] and teacher prep
[00:30:38] programs.
[00:30:39] In fact, again,
[00:30:40] during
[00:30:41] CO. You
[00:30:42] know, we don't want to blame
[00:30:44] COVID for everything,
[00:30:45] but they can be blamed for a few things.
[00:30:47] I
[00:30:47] mean, there were
[00:30:47] teachers who
[00:30:48] got their credential never
[00:30:49] having
[00:30:49] set foot in
[00:30:50] a classroom.
[00:30:51] And so, um, the, the programs, they don't train
[00:30:56] teachers.
[00:30:57] but
[00:30:57] they educate
[00:30:58] teachers
[00:30:59] about things.
[00:31:00] And so they don't, they don't learn how
[00:31:01] to teach a lesson,
[00:31:02] but
[00:31:02] they read
[00:31:03] about
[00:31:03] different
[00:31:04] ways to
[00:31:05] teach lessons.
[00:31:06] And so I think there's just a,
[00:31:08] a
[00:31:08] dearth
[00:31:08] of,
[00:31:09] uh,
[00:31:10] of
[00:31:10] education
[00:31:11] for,
[00:31:11] in
[00:31:11] pre-service.
[00:31:13] Frank: I think
[00:31:13] also the, I mean
[00:31:14] to
[00:31:14] to your question
[00:31:15] about
[00:31:15] why the
[00:31:16] kids who were struggling the
[00:31:17] most are struggling more.
[00:31:19] we
[00:31:19] dedicate
[00:31:19] the book to kids who
[00:31:20] need to be taught.
[00:31:21] You
[00:31:21] know,
[00:31:22] there are some children who,
[00:31:23] who
[00:31:23] can
[00:31:24] go to the
[00:31:24] library on
[00:31:24] their
[00:31:25] own
[00:31:25] and they're fine. And
[00:31:26] we
[00:31:26] see
[00:31:26] it now
[00:31:26] when we
[00:31:26] walk
[00:31:27] into
[00:31:27] the classrooms.
[00:31:27] like yesterday
[00:31:28] I was
[00:31:29] telling
[00:31:29] the administrators
[00:31:30] I was with,
[00:31:30] like,
[00:31:31] you
[00:31:31] can
[00:31:31] tell that the
[00:31:32] screens have
[00:31:32] made, have
[00:31:33] made
[00:31:33] the
[00:31:33] self-directed kids
[00:31:35] continue
[00:31:36] to
[00:31:36] be
[00:31:36] active
[00:31:36] learners and
[00:31:37] those
[00:31:37] who
[00:31:37] wanna opt out cannot opt
[00:31:38] out.
[00:31:39] It's much harder
[00:31:40] to
[00:31:40] do
[00:31:40] that
[00:31:40] when
[00:31:40] there's
[00:31:40] that interaction
[00:31:41] with the
[00:31:42] teacher,
[00:31:43] teachers
[00:31:43] modeling, doing
[00:31:44] guided practice,
[00:31:45] and
[00:31:45] making
[00:31:46] the kids accountable
[00:31:46] moment to moment.
[00:31:48] I think
[00:31:48] that's
[00:31:48] fallen off. You know,
[00:31:50] And I
[00:31:50] think
[00:31:50] because
[00:31:50] that
[00:31:51] accountability
[00:31:51] has fallen off,
[00:31:52] that relationship
[00:31:53] has fallen off
[00:31:54] between
[00:31:55] the teacher
[00:31:55] and the, and
[00:31:56] the students.
[00:31:57] I think that
[00:31:58] that's been a
[00:31:58] big piece
[00:31:59] of it.
[00:32:00] But going back,
[00:32:00] even
[00:32:00] like
[00:32:01] Gino was talking about
[00:32:02] the
[00:32:02] 1970s and eighties,
[00:32:04] Ruby Payne,
[00:32:04] uh,
[00:32:05] framework, for Understanding Poverty,
[00:32:07] if
[00:32:07] you remember that
[00:32:08] book, uh,
[00:32:08] from, I think it was
[00:32:09] the late eighties,
[00:32:10] talked about
[00:32:11] how
[00:32:12] the single most
[00:32:13] important
[00:32:13] thing
[00:32:13] we do as
[00:32:13] far
[00:32:14] as instruction
[00:32:15] is the modeling
[00:32:17] Because
[00:32:17] the modeling is where you
[00:32:18] demystify the learner.
[00:32:20] I
[00:32:20] mean,
[00:32:20] I'm sorry, the
[00:32:20] learning.
[00:32:21] It, it
[00:32:21] makes it,
[00:32:22] it makes
[00:32:22] it
[00:32:23] quit
[00:32:23] being magic and
[00:32:25] it
[00:32:25] becomes, oh, I can
[00:32:25] do that too.
[00:32:27] And that
[00:32:27] with the
[00:32:28] modeling
[00:32:28] falling
[00:32:28] off,
[00:32:29] that
[00:32:29] demystification
[00:32:30] has fallen off. And I
[00:32:31] think
[00:32:31] you
[00:32:31] see
[00:32:31] a lot
[00:32:32] of more kids
[00:32:33] having
[00:32:33] this
[00:32:33] learned helplessness
[00:32:35] because
[00:32:36] they're
[00:32:36] not getting that anymore.
[00:32:37] So
[00:32:37] I
[00:32:37] think
[00:32:37] that's
[00:32:38] why we're seeing the steep declines.
[00:32:39] And
[00:32:39] again,
[00:32:40] the numbers
[00:32:40] show
[00:32:41] it.
[00:32:41] Uh,
[00:32:41] we
[00:32:42] talk about
[00:32:42] this in, in
[00:32:43] chapter
[00:32:43] one, the Rip
[00:32:44] Van Winkle piece,
[00:32:45] that instead
[00:32:45] of
[00:32:45] coming from
[00:32:46] the past,
[00:32:47] he had
[00:32:47] come from
[00:32:47] the future.
[00:32:49] He had come from 2034
[00:32:50] and
[00:32:50] told
[00:32:50] educators
[00:32:51] in 2014,
[00:32:52] Hey
[00:32:52] guys, I've been to
[00:32:53] the future
[00:32:54] and
[00:32:54] you spent about
[00:32:55] $40
[00:32:56] billion
[00:32:56] a year,
[00:32:58] um,
[00:32:59] to
[00:32:59] get
[00:32:59] more
[00:33:00] and
[00:33:00] more digital
[00:33:00] into classrooms.
[00:33:01] And
[00:33:02] what you're
[00:33:02] gonna
[00:33:02] see
[00:33:02] is
[00:33:02] that the high
[00:33:03] achieving kids,
[00:33:04] they'll do about
[00:33:05] the same,
[00:33:06] but your
[00:33:06] low
[00:33:06] achieving
[00:33:06] kids,
[00:33:07] they're gonna tank. Like, who would
[00:33:09] buy that?
[00:33:10] Nobody
[00:33:10] would buy
[00:33:11] that if
[00:33:11] we knew it
[00:33:12] in
[00:33:12] 20
[00:33:13] 14,
[00:33:13] 20
[00:33:13] 15.
[00:33:14] We're
[00:33:14] realizing it
[00:33:15] now
[00:33:15] in 20
[00:33:16] 25,
[00:33:16] 20 26.
[00:33:17] But
[00:33:18] I think
[00:33:18] that, um, it's
[00:33:20] gonna continue.
[00:33:21] Earlier
[00:33:21] when
[00:33:21] you asked
[00:33:22] the question about
[00:33:23] what
[00:33:23] scares you the
[00:33:23] most,
[00:33:24] I think it's this bifurcation that's
[00:33:26] There was
[00:33:27] an article
[00:33:27] in
[00:33:28] New York Times
[00:33:28] regarding reading
[00:33:29] habits. People who
[00:33:31] are reading
[00:33:33] still
[00:33:33] are reading more.
[00:33:35] But the
[00:33:36] number of people who
[00:33:36] didn't read
[00:33:37] a single
[00:33:37] book
[00:33:38] in
[00:33:38] the
[00:33:38] US in
[00:33:39] 20, in,
[00:33:40] 20, 24, I think it
[00:33:41] was,
[00:33:42] was over
[00:33:42] 50%.
[00:33:43] You
[00:33:44] know,
[00:33:44] so
[00:33:44] those of
[00:33:44] us that read,
[00:33:45] read
[00:33:46] more. '
[00:33:46] cause
[00:33:46] there's more
[00:33:47] to
[00:33:47] read.
[00:33:48] Those of
[00:33:48] us
[00:33:48] that don't
[00:33:48] read
[00:33:49] have chosen not to,
[00:33:49] there's this big bifurcation happening
[00:33:51] that's
[00:33:52] gonna
[00:33:53] open
[00:33:53] up
[00:33:53] that inequality
[00:33:54] gap even
[00:33:54] more.
[00:33:54] I
[00:34:00] Bart: So thinking about the future then, if this trend continues, what are long-term implications?
[00:34:05] Frank: There's
[00:34:06] a
[00:34:06] good quote
[00:34:06] from
[00:34:06] a
[00:34:07] superintendent.
[00:34:08] in,
[00:34:08] at the end
[00:34:09] of chapter one,
[00:34:09] where we
[00:34:10] talk
[00:34:10] about
[00:34:10] there's alternative
[00:34:11] paths to this path
[00:34:12] that we're on. And
[00:34:14] this particular
[00:34:15] superintendent,
[00:34:16] really
[00:34:16] well regarded,
[00:34:17] she, um,
[00:34:19] was
[00:34:19] like
[00:34:19] the, she got the Technology
[00:34:21] Administrator
[00:34:22] award
[00:34:22] of the
[00:34:23] year
[00:34:23] in California
[00:34:24] a few years back.
[00:34:25] So
[00:34:25] she's
[00:34:26] very
[00:34:26] pro tech,
[00:34:27] but
[00:34:27] she
[00:34:28] said,
[00:34:28] if
[00:34:28] this
[00:34:28] trend
[00:34:29] continues,
[00:34:30] we're gonna go
[00:34:31] obsolete. And we're
[00:34:32] really worried
[00:34:33] about when
[00:34:33] we
[00:34:33] first started
[00:34:34] having
[00:34:34] these conversations
[00:34:34] two and
[00:34:35] a half
[00:34:35] years
[00:34:35] ago.
[00:34:36] It
[00:34:36] was
[00:34:36] really regarding
[00:34:37] the place of
[00:34:38] the
[00:34:38] mainstream
[00:34:38] school
[00:34:39] and
[00:34:40] mainstream public school
[00:34:41] and where that's
[00:34:42] going.
[00:34:42] And
[00:34:42] I
[00:34:42] think,
[00:34:43] you
[00:34:43] know,
[00:34:43] coming out
[00:34:44] of COVID in
[00:34:44] particular,
[00:34:45] we're looking at
[00:34:47] virtual
[00:34:48] schools, you know, homeschooling,
[00:34:50] alpha
[00:34:51] schools.
[00:34:51] There's
[00:34:52] all
[00:34:52] these schools
[00:34:52] that
[00:34:52] are
[00:34:53] becoming
[00:34:53] alternatives to schools, right? We
[00:34:55] feel
[00:34:55] like
[00:34:55] there's
[00:34:55] a really important
[00:34:56] place in, in America
[00:34:58] for the mainstream neighborhood,
[00:35:00] public And
[00:35:02] that's
[00:35:03] what
[00:35:03] I
[00:35:03] see
[00:35:03] as being
[00:35:04] a big concern,
[00:35:05] is
[00:35:05] that the
[00:35:05] more we
[00:35:05] hollow that out,
[00:35:07] the
[00:35:08] more that
[00:35:08] it becomes like,
[00:35:09] well, if
[00:35:09] we're
[00:35:09] gonna go
[00:35:10] to school
[00:35:11] and
[00:35:11] watch
[00:35:12] a screen,
[00:35:13] my
[00:35:13] kid can
[00:35:13] do that
[00:35:14] at
[00:35:14] home.
[00:35:14] Why
[00:35:14] send
[00:35:15] him to school?
[00:35:16] You know,
[00:35:16] we
[00:35:17] continue hollowing
[00:35:18] that out
[00:35:19] till
[00:35:19] at
[00:35:19] some
[00:35:19] point
[00:35:19] we hit a tipping
[00:35:20] point
[00:35:21] that we
[00:35:21] can't
[00:35:21] get back from.
[00:35:22] 'cause, you
[00:35:22] know,
[00:35:22] every year
[00:35:24] at, if attendance drops, if enrollment
[00:35:26] drops, your funding drops,
[00:35:27] gets harder
[00:35:27] to fund.
[00:35:28] Therefore it gets,
[00:35:29] it's
[00:35:29] like
[00:35:29] you're
[00:35:30] running
[00:35:30] up a
[00:35:30] hill
[00:35:31] backwards.
[00:35:32] And
[00:35:32] so
[00:35:33] I think
[00:35:33] that
[00:35:33] that's what
[00:35:34] is a really
[00:35:36] big cause for
[00:35:36] concern
[00:35:37] down this path
[00:35:38] that we're
[00:35:38] Anjanette McNeely: on. And it's interesting
[00:35:40] Gene Tavernetti: how schools.
[00:35:42] are
[00:35:42] in competition.
[00:35:43] The, you know, our, mainstream
[00:35:45] public schools
[00:35:46] are in competition
[00:35:46] with
[00:35:47] charters.
[00:35:47] And so they are running,
[00:35:49] you
[00:35:49] know, how
[00:35:49] can
[00:35:49] we
[00:35:50] provide
[00:35:50] what
[00:35:50] the
[00:35:50] charter's providing
[00:35:52] and
[00:35:52] what's a
[00:35:52] charter,
[00:35:52] usually providing
[00:35:53] more tech.
[00:35:54] And
[00:35:55] so
[00:35:55] they get
[00:35:56] onto this
[00:35:57] this treadmill
[00:35:58] and they
[00:35:58] don't know
[00:35:58] how
[00:35:58] to
[00:35:58] get
[00:35:59] off. And
[00:35:59] as
[00:35:59] an administrator
[00:36:00] it's hard to,
[00:36:02] to
[00:36:02] back away and say,
[00:36:03] well,
[00:36:03] wait a second,
[00:36:03] maybe we're
[00:36:04] not doing the
[00:36:04] right
[00:36:05] thing. Maybe
[00:36:05] all
[00:36:05] these things that I was
[00:36:06] cheerleading for,
[00:36:08] uh,
[00:36:08] weren't quite
[00:36:09] the best
[00:36:10] thing to do for kids. So,
[00:36:12] so
[00:36:12] everybody has
[00:36:13] some,
[00:36:14] uh,
[00:36:14] readjustment
[00:36:16] administrators,
[00:36:17] parents thinking as
[00:36:18] Frank talked
[00:36:19] about,
[00:36:19] thinking about what happens at home,
[00:36:21] how we,
[00:36:22] how
[00:36:22] we interact
[00:36:22] with
[00:36:23] our children.
[00:36:23] I
[00:36:24] think we just have to, you
[00:36:25] know,
[00:36:25] eat
[00:36:25] a big piece
[00:36:26] of humble pie
[00:36:27] and
[00:36:27] say,
[00:36:27] we
[00:36:27] made a mistake.
[00:36:29] Bart: Yes. You share that learning is fundamentally social. So how has device heavy instruction changed the social experience of school?
[00:36:39] Gene Tavernetti: it's just taking it away. I mean, you walk into a, you walk into a classroom and everybody's
[00:36:42] got
[00:36:43] headphones on and looking at a screen,
[00:36:44] where's
[00:36:45] the interaction?
[00:36:46] And
[00:36:47] so then,
[00:36:48] uh, I'm
[00:36:48] gonna
[00:36:48] go off on
[00:36:49] a tangent here. We could go off, you
[00:36:51] know,
[00:36:51] on
[00:36:51] AI
[00:36:52] to where
[00:36:52] now we get
[00:36:53] interaction with
[00:36:54] ai.
[00:36:55] AI
[00:36:55] can be
[00:36:56] our friends,
[00:36:57] which has been
[00:36:57] very
[00:36:58] scary
[00:36:59] for folks.
[00:37:00] So we
[00:37:01] lose skills.
[00:37:02] We
[00:37:02] don't know
[00:37:03] how
[00:37:03] to
[00:37:03] make friends. We don't know how to, to interact
[00:37:06] appropriately.
[00:37:07] all
[00:37:07] of
[00:37:08] those
[00:37:08] things
[00:37:08] contribute
[00:37:09] to the
[00:37:10] answer being
[00:37:11] more tech. You
[00:37:12] know,
[00:37:12] we'll
[00:37:13] we'll
[00:37:13] we'll give them some
[00:37:14] interaction with the tech.
[00:37:15] Frank: yeah,
[00:37:16] we'll give 'em an
[00:37:16] AI friend.
[00:37:17] You
[00:37:17] know, there's a,
[00:37:17] there's a couple of examples
[00:37:19] that
[00:37:19] are
[00:37:19] in
[00:37:19] the
[00:37:19] book
[00:37:20] and a
[00:37:20] couple that didn't
[00:37:20] make it,
[00:37:21] uh,
[00:37:21] that
[00:37:21] were
[00:37:21] great. Interview,
[00:37:22] interview
[00:37:23] quotes
[00:37:24] from teachers
[00:37:25] the teacher, uh, I
[00:37:26] think a
[00:37:27] Spanish teacher Um, the
[00:37:29] kids
[00:37:29] are on their screens
[00:37:31] and, uh,
[00:37:32] she's six
[00:37:33] feet away
[00:37:34] and they
[00:37:34] will
[00:37:35] send her a message
[00:37:36] on
[00:37:37] the, on
[00:37:38] the, device
[00:37:40] instead
[00:37:40] of just raising the hand and
[00:37:41] asking
[00:37:42] the question.
[00:37:43] She
[00:37:43] said,
[00:37:43] Tim,
[00:37:43] I'm
[00:37:43] right here.
[00:37:44] You
[00:37:44] can ask me the
[00:37:44] question.
[00:37:45] Oh, nevermind.
[00:37:47] And they're
[00:37:47] not comfortable
[00:37:49] having
[00:37:49] that interaction, like
[00:37:50] with the
[00:37:50] adults. But
[00:37:51] you
[00:37:51] know, like
[00:37:52] Jean said, you walk into the
[00:37:53] classroom and
[00:37:53] you
[00:37:53] can almost measure
[00:37:55] without even
[00:37:55] looking.
[00:37:56] are
[00:37:57] they on screens or not,
[00:37:57] because of how
[00:37:58] quiet. it is. a
[00:37:59] lot less interaction.
[00:38:01] And Jonathan, he talked
[00:38:02] about as an anxious generation,
[00:38:03] he's a
[00:38:03] professor
[00:38:04] at
[00:38:04] NYU, right?
[00:38:05] Um,
[00:38:05] how
[00:38:06] those last five minutes
[00:38:07] before class started
[00:38:08] would
[00:38:09] be
[00:38:10] the
[00:38:10] most
[00:38:11] bubbly
[00:38:11] time
[00:38:12] in
[00:38:12] his lectures.
[00:38:13] Everybody's talking to the person next to them, what they
[00:38:15] did on
[00:38:15] the
[00:38:16] weekend or whatever,
[00:38:16] or
[00:38:17] whatever
[00:38:17] test is coming
[00:38:18] up.
[00:38:19] And
[00:38:19] now
[00:38:19] it's the quietest
[00:38:20] time. It's
[00:38:21] the
[00:38:21] quietest time
[00:38:21] because
[00:38:22] everybody's on
[00:38:22] their
[00:38:22] phones.
[00:38:23] And
[00:38:23] the
[00:38:23] same thing
[00:38:24] I
[00:38:24] think
[00:38:24] happens
[00:38:24] in
[00:38:24] schools
[00:38:25] that
[00:38:25] allow phones.
[00:38:26] what
[00:38:27] used
[00:38:27] to
[00:38:27] be
[00:38:27] the
[00:38:27] most
[00:38:28] bubbly
[00:38:28] time, the
[00:38:29] most,
[00:38:29] you know,
[00:38:29] the
[00:38:30] most
[00:38:30] interactive
[00:38:30] time,
[00:38:31] the
[00:38:31] periods
[00:38:31] right before,
[00:38:33] right
[00:38:33] before
[00:38:34] a
[00:38:34] class
[00:38:34] started,
[00:38:35] or,
[00:38:35] or, uh, maybe the in the
[00:38:36] passing period
[00:38:37] had
[00:38:38] become very
[00:38:38] quiet.
[00:38:39] Everybody's
[00:38:39] walking
[00:38:39] with their
[00:38:40] head down.
[00:38:40] so the
[00:38:41] social
[00:38:41] interaction piece
[00:38:42] that's being lost
[00:38:43] is
[00:38:43] being
[00:38:43] lost
[00:38:43] in
[00:38:43] the classroom during,
[00:38:45] during
[00:38:45] guided practice, during
[00:38:46] closure, during
[00:38:47] checking
[00:38:47] for
[00:38:47] understanding because
[00:38:49] it's being done by the bot.
[00:38:50] and
[00:38:50] it's
[00:38:50] being
[00:38:50] lost outside of
[00:38:51] the
[00:38:51] classroom as
[00:38:52] Bart: Are there any other things that teachers are telling you about student communication, resilience regulation?
[00:38:58] Frank: Yeah.
[00:38:59] I
[00:38:59] never
[00:38:59] had heard
[00:39:00] the term
[00:39:00] dys reg
[00:39:01] dysregulation
[00:39:02] before
[00:39:02] until
[00:39:02] about
[00:39:03] two
[00:39:03] years ago
[00:39:04] about
[00:39:04] the
[00:39:05] ability to, to
[00:39:06] kind
[00:39:06] of center
[00:39:07] themselves and
[00:39:08] find how to, how to
[00:39:10] behave.
[00:39:10] So definitely
[00:39:11] we've heard that.
[00:39:12] I
[00:39:13] think we
[00:39:13] see
[00:39:13] it
[00:39:13] in our
[00:39:13] programs as
[00:39:14] well, that, that, all
[00:39:16] the
[00:39:16] pieces
[00:39:16] you
[00:39:16] asked
[00:39:17] about are happening.
[00:39:18] Gene Tavernetti: Well,
[00:39:18] and I
[00:39:19] think something else
[00:39:19] that, that, we've been doing for, for quite
[00:39:22] a long time, that the technology has exasperated,
[00:39:25] We
[00:39:25] have
[00:39:25] to
[00:39:26] have a
[00:39:26] program
[00:39:26] for everything.
[00:39:28] The
[00:39:28] kids don't communicate.
[00:39:29] They
[00:39:29] don't, oh,
[00:39:30] SEL
[00:39:30] let's have
[00:39:31] a,
[00:39:31] let's have
[00:39:31] a new program.
[00:39:33] And, uh,
[00:39:34] kids don't
[00:39:34] have
[00:39:35] self-esteem. Well,
[00:39:35] we need a new program.
[00:39:37] And so we
[00:39:37] have
[00:39:37] all
[00:39:37] of these
[00:39:38] programs
[00:39:38] that are
[00:39:39] supposed to mitigate
[00:39:40] again,
[00:39:41] the issues that
[00:39:42] are being exasperated by
[00:39:44] the, the,
[00:39:45] uh,
[00:39:45] the technology.
[00:39:47] But we don't go to technology.
[00:39:50] We
[00:39:50] don't
[00:39:50] remove technology as an
[00:39:51] answer.
[00:39:52] We bring more
[00:39:52] technology in.
[00:39:54] And, and
[00:39:54] it's just,
[00:39:55] that's the, again, we're captive.
[00:39:57] Our thinking doesn't move beyond There's a, there's a good chapter in
[00:40:01] Frank: the book,
[00:40:02] uh,
[00:40:02] that our,
[00:40:03] our third,
[00:40:03] uh, author
[00:40:04] who's not
[00:40:04] here
[00:40:05] today, '
[00:40:05] cause
[00:40:05] she's
[00:40:05] actually in a
[00:40:06] school,
[00:40:07] again, what I think
[00:40:08] makes us different.
[00:40:09] We're actually
[00:40:09] in
[00:40:09] schools every
[00:40:11] week.
[00:40:11] But
[00:40:12] she
[00:40:12] wrote
[00:40:12] a
[00:40:12] chapter on durable
[00:40:13] skills and
[00:40:14] integrating those
[00:40:15] into
[00:40:15] the lesson design.
[00:40:16] and then to really
[00:40:18] making that be
[00:40:18] not
[00:40:19] an
[00:40:19] add-on program,
[00:40:21] but
[00:40:21] like,
[00:40:21] you teach
[00:40:21] a lesson and
[00:40:22] you integrate
[00:40:23] these skills, right?
[00:40:24] You
[00:40:24] integrate communication,
[00:40:26] collaboration,
[00:40:27] critical thinking.
[00:40:28] It's not
[00:40:28] an aside
[00:40:29] and it's
[00:40:29] not
[00:40:29] a
[00:40:30] program.
[00:40:30] It's something
[00:40:31] you just do
[00:40:32] as
[00:40:32] part of
[00:40:32] your
[00:40:32] lesson design. probably
[00:40:34] my
[00:40:34] favorite part of
[00:40:35] the book
[00:40:35] is
[00:40:35] the
[00:40:36] the
[00:40:36] superintendent
[00:40:37] speech
[00:40:38] at the end of
[00:40:39] and
[00:40:40] the
[00:40:40] superintendent kind of
[00:40:41] is compared
[00:40:43] to
[00:40:43] a superintendent
[00:40:44] in the prologue
[00:40:45] of
[00:40:45] the book,
[00:40:46] who
[00:40:46] was
[00:40:47] the
[00:40:47] gung ho in 2014.
[00:40:49] The
[00:40:49] setting
[00:40:49] is 2014
[00:40:50] for the prologue.
[00:40:51] Very gung-ho, very
[00:40:52] like,
[00:40:52] you
[00:40:52] know,
[00:40:52] let's get
[00:40:53] this,
[00:40:54] let's
[00:40:54] get
[00:40:54] this,
[00:40:54] we
[00:40:54] gotta
[00:40:54] get a screen
[00:40:55] in front
[00:40:55] of every kid.
[00:40:56] The
[00:40:56] superintendent
[00:40:57] in
[00:40:57] 2034,
[00:40:58] which is the, which
[00:40:59] is where the epilogue
[00:41:00] is, says, we're not gonna do that. We're gonna dial back. We're gonna use 'em when, when
[00:41:03] we need. '
[00:41:04] 'em, But
[00:41:04] they're
[00:41:05] not gonna dominate our lives.
[00:41:06] We don't like what we're seeing with our kids.
[00:41:07] And
[00:41:08] he
[00:41:08] talks about durable skills and communication and collaboration and all of that. And, and the super fictional superintendent says, um,
[00:41:15] not that long ago, computer science
[00:41:17] majors were like
[00:41:18] the
[00:41:18] exploding
[00:41:19] major.
[00:41:19] Right?
[00:41:20] And
[00:41:20] colleges
[00:41:21] across the country,
[00:41:22] some
[00:41:22] of
[00:41:22] those
[00:41:23] kids
[00:41:23] can't find a job now
[00:41:24] because AI has
[00:41:25] taken
[00:41:25] that
[00:41:25] away,
[00:41:26] right?
[00:41:26] We
[00:41:26] need
[00:41:26] to make the kids
[00:41:27] durable themselves.
[00:41:29] And
[00:41:29] it's
[00:41:29] not so
[00:41:29] much the content,
[00:41:30] it's not so much
[00:41:30] the program
[00:41:31] It's having
[00:41:32] those skills
[00:41:33] where
[00:41:33] they
[00:41:33] get to
[00:41:34] adapt
[00:41:34] and
[00:41:35] interact
[00:41:35] and
[00:41:35] communicate and
[00:41:36] collaborate.
[00:41:37] That
[00:41:37] is
[00:41:37] missing.
[00:41:38] And
[00:41:38] it's not bringing in,
[00:41:39] you know,
[00:41:39] let's
[00:41:40] add
[00:41:40] on
[00:41:40] an
[00:41:40] SEL
[00:41:41] program
[00:41:41] or whatever.
[00:41:41] It's, let's
[00:41:42] integrate
[00:41:43] it
[00:41:43] into what the kids are doing every day.
[00:41:45] Very
[00:41:45] difficult
[00:41:45] to
[00:41:46] do if they're on screens
[00:41:47] three or four hours a
[00:41:47] day. So if you were advising a superintendent tomorrow, what's the first move toward balance by digital captives? I, say
[00:41:57] Gene Tavernetti: it
[00:41:57] as a
[00:41:57] joke, but you know, as Frank said,
[00:41:59] this, is
[00:42:00] what's
[00:42:01] different about this book
[00:42:02] is that
[00:42:03] the three of us
[00:42:04] who were
[00:42:04] involved in this
[00:42:05] book.
[00:42:06] We're actually working in schools
[00:42:09] in
[00:42:09] the
[00:42:09] aughts. I never said
[00:42:10] that
[00:42:11] before
[00:42:11] in
[00:42:11] the aughts. We,
[00:42:12] We,
[00:42:12] were
[00:42:13] working and seeing this,
[00:42:14] seeing
[00:42:14] this work, seeing, seeing,
[00:42:17] uh,
[00:42:17] what we
[00:42:17] talked
[00:42:18] about
[00:42:18] actually
[00:42:18] doing
[00:42:19] this work,
[00:42:20] you
[00:42:20] know, that I'd be, you know
[00:42:21] Frank
[00:42:22] used
[00:42:22] to you'd be at, be in your district doing,
[00:42:24] doing that
[00:42:25] work. So we know that
[00:42:27] it's
[00:42:27] not enough to
[00:42:28] identify the problem.
[00:42:29] You
[00:42:30] know, what, what can
[00:42:30] we
[00:42:30] do about
[00:42:31] it?
[00:42:31] It's
[00:42:32] gonna be
[00:42:32] as
[00:42:32] difficult
[00:42:33] to
[00:42:33] get out
[00:42:34] of the
[00:42:34] problem
[00:42:34] as
[00:42:34] it
[00:42:34] was
[00:42:35] easy
[00:42:35] to get in.
[00:42:36] But
[00:42:37] there
[00:42:37] is a roadmap,
[00:42:38] and
[00:42:38] I
[00:42:39] think
[00:42:39] that's,
[00:42:39] that's
[00:42:39] the power
[00:42:40] of, of this
[00:42:41] book.
[00:42:41] There
[00:42:41] are
[00:42:41] so many folks,
[00:42:43] in
[00:42:43] the
[00:42:44] consulting
[00:42:44] business who
[00:42:46] like to go in and walk around and
[00:42:49] say, ah, you
[00:42:49] need to do this, you
[00:42:50] need to
[00:42:50] do
[00:42:50] that,
[00:42:50] but
[00:42:51] how do you do it?
[00:42:52] And
[00:42:52] I
[00:42:52] think that's
[00:42:53] a big
[00:42:53] difference
[00:42:53] in, in, this book.
[00:42:55] Frank: Yeah, I
[00:42:55] think
[00:42:56] we
[00:42:56] spent, we spend basically
[00:42:57] the intro
[00:42:58] and
[00:42:58] chapter
[00:42:59] one
[00:42:59] presenting
[00:42:59] the problem
[00:43:00] and
[00:43:01] then,
[00:43:01] uh, two
[00:43:02] through
[00:43:02] six
[00:43:02] how
[00:43:02] to,
[00:43:03] how to get
[00:43:03] out of that, And
[00:43:05] so so
[00:43:05] yeah,
[00:43:06] read
[00:43:06] the
[00:43:06] book
[00:43:06] would
[00:43:07] be the
[00:43:07] first
[00:43:07] thing. But
[00:43:07] I
[00:43:07] think
[00:43:08] secondly, it
[00:43:08] would
[00:43:08] be
[00:43:08] like,
[00:43:09] let's
[00:43:09] go to your
[00:43:09] classrooms.
[00:43:10] Let's
[00:43:10] go
[00:43:10] walk
[00:43:11] 20
[00:43:11] classrooms randomly
[00:43:13] and
[00:43:13] let's just look
[00:43:14] at
[00:43:15] how engaged are
[00:43:15] the students
[00:43:17] with
[00:43:18] only
[00:43:18] one
[00:43:18] variable?
[00:43:19] Are
[00:43:19] they
[00:43:19] on screens or
[00:43:20] not?
[00:43:21] And
[00:43:21] what
[00:43:21] you're
[00:43:21] gonna
[00:43:21] see
[00:43:21] is
[00:43:21] the
[00:43:21] more they're on
[00:43:22] screens,
[00:43:22] the less engaged.
[00:43:24] um,
[00:43:24] and I don't
[00:43:25] need
[00:43:25] a, you
[00:43:25] know,
[00:43:25] a
[00:43:26] double
[00:43:26] blind
[00:43:26] experiment
[00:43:27] for
[00:43:27] that. We can
[00:43:27] just go
[00:43:28] and
[00:43:28] walk
[00:43:28] into
[00:43:28] 20
[00:43:28] classrooms, or probably
[00:43:29] any school in
[00:43:30] the
[00:43:30] country
[00:43:31] that,
[00:43:31] any
[00:43:32] mainstream public
[00:43:33] school in the
[00:43:33] country that,
[00:43:35] purports
[00:43:35] to
[00:43:35] be
[00:43:35] balanced
[00:43:36] and we would see it. So what does healthy intentional tech integration actually look like then?
[00:43:43] that's a good
[00:43:43] question.
[00:43:44] We
[00:43:44] were just having
[00:43:44] a
[00:43:44] conversation
[00:43:45] yesterday actually with,
[00:43:46] uh,
[00:43:47] regarding
[00:43:47] how to
[00:43:48] use AI to
[00:43:49] help us write,
[00:43:50] um,
[00:43:50] lessons.
[00:43:52] that
[00:43:52] integrate, collaboration, communication And everything
[00:43:54] else. It's not saying,
[00:43:56] I'll
[00:43:57] start
[00:43:57] by
[00:43:57] saying, what it's
[00:43:57] not,
[00:43:58] Um,
[00:43:58] it's
[00:43:58] not
[00:43:59] like
[00:43:59] taking the
[00:44:00] Chromebooks away.
[00:44:01] You
[00:44:01] know, it's
[00:44:01] not
[00:44:02] that
[00:44:02] the
[00:44:02] kiddos are gonna
[00:44:03] need
[00:44:03] 'em, they're gonna need
[00:44:04] to
[00:44:04] be
[00:44:04] able to
[00:44:05] every
[00:44:05] day
[00:44:05] we
[00:44:05] use
[00:44:05] it, we use email.
[00:44:07] We
[00:44:07] do,
[00:44:07] fa uh,
[00:44:07] video
[00:44:08] conferences. We're using technology
[00:44:09] right now.
[00:44:09] Right.
[00:44:10] Um,
[00:44:11] we're
[00:44:11] gonna
[00:44:11] put
[00:44:11] this
[00:44:11] out on social
[00:44:12] media
[00:44:12] so
[00:44:13] we know that we need
[00:44:14] to use
[00:44:14] the devices. What healthy
[00:44:16] is,
[00:44:17] it's
[00:44:17] not the default. The
[00:44:19] default
[00:44:19] is the
[00:44:20] human interaction.
[00:44:21] So I'd
[00:44:22] be looking at
[00:44:22] a
[00:44:22] classroom
[00:44:23] at
[00:44:23] the
[00:44:23] elementary level,
[00:44:23] let's
[00:44:24] say
[00:44:24] you know,
[00:44:25] the
[00:44:25] kids
[00:44:25] are
[00:44:25] not
[00:44:26] on
[00:44:26] it
[00:44:26] more
[00:44:26] than
[00:44:27] 10%
[00:44:28] of
[00:44:28] the time
[00:44:28] in the
[00:44:28] primary grades.
[00:44:30] There's
[00:44:30] actually, in the
[00:44:31] superintendent speech,
[00:44:32] in chapter six,
[00:44:33] he
[00:44:33] gives
[00:44:33] this theoretical,
[00:44:35] like
[00:44:35] graduated,
[00:44:36] uh,
[00:44:36] digital model
[00:44:38] Where
[00:44:39] in
[00:44:39] kindergarten, first grade,
[00:44:40] second
[00:44:41] grade.
[00:44:41] Kids aren't on, but like 10,
[00:44:43] 20% of the time,
[00:44:44] by
[00:44:44] the time you get to high school,
[00:44:45] maybe 40% of the
[00:44:46] time,
[00:44:47] but
[00:44:47] it's all
[00:44:49] always less than the contact. They're having human to they can get
[00:44:54] the screens at
[00:44:54] home.
[00:44:55] They
[00:44:55] shouldn't, but they
[00:44:56] can. What they can't get at home, at,
[00:44:58] at home
[00:44:59] is
[00:44:59] the
[00:44:59] the interaction
[00:45:00] with 29 classmates.
[00:45:02] Right,
[00:45:02] They
[00:45:02] can't
[00:45:03] get
[00:45:03] that.
[00:45:03] So that's
[00:45:04] a
[00:45:04] part
[00:45:04] that
[00:45:04] I think
[00:45:05] would be
[00:45:05] a
[00:45:05] a key piece in the balance,
[00:45:06] Gene Tavernetti: you
[00:45:07] know, and, and
[00:45:07] many times,
[00:45:08] uh,
[00:45:09] as
[00:45:09] administrators
[00:45:10] we're afraid
[00:45:10] to
[00:45:11] make these
[00:45:11] changes.
[00:45:11] What's
[00:45:12] gonna happen
[00:45:12] if we do it?
[00:45:13] You know,
[00:45:13] when
[00:45:14] the kids,
[00:45:15] when
[00:45:15] we
[00:45:15] have convinced a
[00:45:17] teacher
[00:45:17] to try
[00:45:18] a
[00:45:18] lesson without
[00:45:18] screens,
[00:45:19] it's
[00:45:20] almost like a sigh
[00:45:20] of
[00:45:20] relief.
[00:45:21] The
[00:45:21] kids are so happy
[00:45:23] not
[00:45:23] to
[00:45:23] be on
[00:45:24] the
[00:45:25] Chromebook
[00:45:25] all
[00:45:26] period.
[00:45:26] Or a big part of,
[00:45:27] a
[00:45:27] big
[00:45:28] part
[00:45:28] of
[00:45:28] the
[00:45:28] period.
[00:45:28] They
[00:45:29] miss it.
[00:45:30] They miss it. And, And,
[00:45:31] that's
[00:45:31] that transformational
[00:45:33] things that
[00:45:33] we're
[00:45:33] talking
[00:45:34] about.
[00:45:34] And,
[00:45:34] and
[00:45:35] we learn from other people
[00:45:36] and
[00:45:36] we need
[00:45:36] to have
[00:45:37] that,
[00:45:37] to
[00:45:37] have that
[00:45:38] contact.
[00:45:39] We
[00:45:39] are, um,
[00:45:41] uh,
[00:45:41] we're
[00:45:41] stealing
[00:45:41] that.
[00:45:42] we
[00:45:42] just
[00:45:42] have
[00:45:43] to
[00:45:43] have
[00:45:43] some,
[00:45:43] some courage to try things. I
[00:45:46] Frank: was
[00:45:46] in
[00:45:46] a in
[00:45:46] a math classroom,
[00:45:48] an
[00:45:48] alternative
[00:45:49] education site.
[00:45:50] Um,
[00:45:51] kids are used to just being on the right? That's, that's the nature
[00:45:55] of an alternative
[00:45:56] ed site
[00:45:56] a lot
[00:45:56] of the
[00:45:58] And
[00:45:58] we
[00:45:58] convinced
[00:45:58] the teacher to try
[00:45:59] out
[00:45:59] a
[00:45:59] math
[00:46:00] lesson
[00:46:00] just six
[00:46:00] kids
[00:46:01] in
[00:46:02] the class.
[00:46:03] And
[00:46:03] they,
[00:46:03] you
[00:46:03] know,
[00:46:04] she
[00:46:04] taught the lesson.
[00:46:05] She had
[00:46:05] a, a
[00:46:05] hook
[00:46:06] that
[00:46:06] connected to
[00:46:07] real life
[00:46:07] learning.
[00:46:08] She had an objective,
[00:46:09] she
[00:46:10] taught
[00:46:10] the
[00:46:10] big idea. I think it was like computing simple Yeah,
[00:46:14] that's
[00:46:14] what
[00:46:14] it
[00:46:14] was. And
[00:46:15] it
[00:46:15] was, the hook
[00:46:15] was like,
[00:46:16] if you have money in
[00:46:16] the
[00:46:16] bank, uh, what do you
[00:46:18] have
[00:46:19] 2%
[00:46:19] interest or 4%
[00:46:21] Uh,
[00:46:21] and
[00:46:21] then she
[00:46:21] modeled
[00:46:22] and
[00:46:22] the
[00:46:22] kids did
[00:46:23] guided
[00:46:23] practice
[00:46:23] using
[00:46:23] the whiteboards from
[00:46:24] 2005
[00:46:26] or prior to,
[00:46:27] and
[00:46:27] at
[00:46:27] the
[00:46:27] end
[00:46:28] of
[00:46:28] the
[00:46:28] lesson,
[00:46:28] we're
[00:46:28] gonna
[00:46:29] sit
[00:46:29] down and
[00:46:29] debrief the
[00:46:29] lesson. And
[00:46:30] the student,
[00:46:31] had
[00:46:31] walked
[00:46:32] out and walked back in
[00:46:33] and she
[00:46:34] said,
[00:46:34] miss, can
[00:46:35] we do that again
[00:46:35] tomorrow?
[00:46:36] Yeah.
[00:46:37] The teacher
[00:46:38] said,
[00:46:38] The
[00:46:39] teacher
[00:46:39] said,
[00:46:39] uh,
[00:46:39] did
[00:46:39] you
[00:46:40] enjoy that?
[00:46:40] And she's like, yeah, I
[00:46:41] like learning. You know, So I
[00:46:43] think
[00:46:43] that
[00:46:43] there's,
[00:46:43] that,
[00:46:44] that's
[00:46:44] a
[00:46:44] huge aha,
[00:46:46] but
[00:46:47] we
[00:46:47] gotta
[00:46:47] convince the teacher to go
[00:46:48] back
[00:46:48] and do
[00:46:48] it
[00:46:48] again tomorrow
[00:46:49] because
[00:46:49] it's
[00:46:50] so easy to
[00:46:51] not,
[00:46:51] right?
[00:46:52] yeah, that, that,
[00:46:53] uh,
[00:46:54] that was
[00:46:54] like a
[00:46:54] really
[00:46:54] telling
[00:46:55] moment for me,
[00:46:55] both for
[00:46:56] what
[00:46:56] Gene was
[00:46:56] saying
[00:46:57] and
[00:46:57] for
[00:46:57] how
[00:46:57] hard
[00:46:58] it is
[00:46:58] to break those
[00:46:59] habits
[00:46:59] that have become ingrained in the last
[00:47:00] three, 10 years.
[00:47:02] Bart: What questions should leaders be asking before adopting new tech, especially ai?
[00:47:08] Frank: Well,
[00:47:09] there's
[00:47:09] a
[00:47:09] whole
[00:47:09] chapter
[00:47:10] on
[00:47:10] it,
[00:47:10] and
[00:47:10] it's,
[00:47:11] um, it's called,
[00:47:12] uh, using
[00:47:12] the
[00:47:13] educational
[00:47:13] vision or
[00:47:14] instructional vision as a filter. Um,
[00:47:17] and that should
[00:47:17] be question
[00:47:18] number
[00:47:18] one is what's
[00:47:20] our purpose
[00:47:20] here?
[00:47:21] As
[00:47:21] in
[00:47:21] whatever
[00:47:22] school
[00:47:22] district, there's a fictional school district
[00:47:24] called
[00:47:24] Irving
[00:47:25] School District in the beginning,
[00:47:26] what is
[00:47:26] our purpose in
[00:47:27] the Irving
[00:47:28] School District? What
[00:47:28] is
[00:47:29] our mission,
[00:47:29] our vision? that
[00:47:30] should be
[00:47:31] the first filter.
[00:47:31] Does
[00:47:32] it fit
[00:47:32] the
[00:47:32] vision
[00:47:33] or
[00:47:33] not?
[00:47:33] If
[00:47:33] in
[00:47:33] our vision we
[00:47:34] say we want
[00:47:34] kids who can collaborate,
[00:47:36] kids who
[00:47:37] can
[00:47:37] communicate well, who can
[00:47:38] sustain
[00:47:39] focus,
[00:47:40] who
[00:47:40] can read deeply?
[00:47:42] Is
[00:47:42] this
[00:47:42] program doing that?
[00:47:44] Let's
[00:47:44] say that
[00:47:44] it is doing all
[00:47:45] those
[00:47:46] Then
[00:47:46] the
[00:47:46] next
[00:47:47] question
[00:47:47] is,
[00:47:47] okay,
[00:47:47] what's
[00:47:48] it replacing?
[00:47:49] Right?
[00:47:50] So
[00:47:50] that's,
[00:47:50] it's always
[00:47:51] an
[00:47:51] opportunity. Cost question
[00:47:53] is
[00:47:53] you
[00:47:53] only
[00:47:53] have six hours in a day.
[00:47:55] How
[00:47:56] good
[00:47:56] must
[00:47:56] this program be
[00:47:58] Tola to take some of those
[00:48:00] six hours, right? Because I
[00:48:02] mean those, that's
[00:48:02] the
[00:48:02] most valuable
[00:48:03] resource that schools have
[00:48:05] is
[00:48:06] that
[00:48:06] time
[00:48:06] with the
[00:48:07] kiddos.
[00:48:07] And
[00:48:07] if you're
[00:48:07] gonna take some
[00:48:08] of
[00:48:08] that
[00:48:08] time
[00:48:08] away and turn
[00:48:09] it over
[00:48:09] a screen,
[00:48:10] boy
[00:48:11] it
[00:48:11] better meet your vision.
[00:48:12] It
[00:48:13] better meet
[00:48:14] your
[00:48:14] instructional program.
[00:48:16] Um,
[00:48:16] and then
[00:48:16] better
[00:48:18] be
[00:48:18] doing
[00:48:18] a better job of
[00:48:19] it. Um, one last quote. I know you wants to jump in on this one as well, but from the same Spanish teacher actually, she was talking about, when
[00:48:29] you're in a
[00:48:29] Spanish
[00:48:30] class,
[00:48:31] um, or any
[00:48:32] language class
[00:48:33] you
[00:48:33] practice,
[00:48:34] right?
[00:48:34] well now
[00:48:35] you can
[00:48:35] practice with
[00:48:36] a
[00:48:36] bot
[00:48:36] instead of practicing with a person.
[00:48:38] And
[00:48:39] what
[00:48:39] the
[00:48:39] teacher was
[00:48:40] talking about
[00:48:40] is
[00:48:41] just
[00:48:41] how,
[00:48:42] much
[00:48:42] more formulaic the
[00:48:44] practice
[00:48:44] is.
[00:48:44] Now,
[00:48:44] in the past, you know,
[00:48:45] you
[00:48:45] would,
[00:48:47] make
[00:48:47] eye to eye
[00:48:48] contact.
[00:48:49] You
[00:48:49] practice
[00:48:49] whatever
[00:48:50] the phrase is. You're
[00:48:51] learning,
[00:48:51] you,
[00:48:51] you
[00:48:52] giggle,
[00:48:52] you embarrass yourself
[00:48:53] a
[00:48:53] little
[00:48:53] bit,
[00:48:54] but
[00:48:54] you learn from
[00:48:55] that,
[00:48:55] right?
[00:48:56] You
[00:48:56] learn
[00:48:56] to
[00:48:56] deal
[00:48:56] with embarrassment. You learn
[00:48:57] how to.
[00:48:58] Put
[00:48:58] yourself out
[00:48:59] there
[00:48:59] a
[00:48:59] little bit.
[00:49:00] But when
[00:49:00] you. getting
[00:49:01] that feedback
[00:49:02] from
[00:49:02] a
[00:49:02] screen, it's only, it's only really assessing were you correct or Um, so I think back to your question of what should superintendent ask themselves? I think it's that it's like, what is being lost besides the time, besides does it fit into our vision? The, it's a, it's like, what are we losing by, by turning to this program instead of having that human
[00:49:26] Gene Tavernetti: you know, and I, and
[00:49:26] I think the whole vision thing, there's probably people rolling their eyes,
[00:49:30] oh,
[00:49:31] we're
[00:49:31] gonna have
[00:49:31] another vision.
[00:49:32] But, but this is
[00:49:33] really
[00:49:34] an important,
[00:49:35] criteria to make
[00:49:36] those decisions
[00:49:37] because
[00:49:37] it's
[00:49:37] not like
[00:49:38] you're, you're,
[00:49:39] uh,
[00:49:39] a
[00:49:40] new text
[00:49:40] adoption that you have a year to do it, and you have all this time because these people
[00:49:44] are
[00:49:44] coming
[00:49:45] out with these apps, you know, one, one after another. So you have to have some sort
[00:49:50] of grounding
[00:49:51] to make these decisions, and you have to
[00:49:53] make them fairly quickly.
[00:49:55] Because you have teachers all that. They found
[00:49:58] this one,
[00:49:58] they
[00:49:59] found
[00:49:59] that one, and then
[00:50:00] the one that they gave up that platform, guess what?
[00:50:03] They
[00:50:03] just have a super improved version. And so if you aren't grounded
[00:50:07] in
[00:50:07] what
[00:50:08] we
[00:50:08] are all about,
[00:50:09] you
[00:50:09] know,
[00:50:10] instructionally,
[00:50:11] you're gonna just
[00:50:11] flounder
[00:50:12] every time, every time we have one
[00:50:14] of those issues.
[00:50:15] And when
[00:50:16] the decisions
[00:50:17] aren't made
[00:50:17] and they
[00:50:18] aren't
[00:50:19] clear
[00:50:20] to
[00:50:20] the teachers,
[00:50:21] they
[00:50:21] just
[00:50:22] think, oh,
[00:50:22] there's
[00:50:22] capricious.
[00:50:23] They,
[00:50:23] oh, they're anti-tech.
[00:50:24] They're, no, we have to,
[00:50:25] we
[00:50:26] have
[00:50:26] to
[00:50:26] have that
[00:50:27] vision.
[00:50:27] Does this
[00:50:28] match
[00:50:28] the
[00:50:28] vision?
[00:50:29] And
[00:50:29] it has
[00:50:29] to
[00:50:29] be
[00:50:29] expressed
[00:50:30] how
[00:50:31] this,
[00:50:31] this
[00:50:31] decision
[00:50:32] was
[00:50:32] made.
[00:50:33] Frank: Yeah.
[00:50:34] Dr. Smith
[00:50:34] was in
[00:50:35] a, in
[00:50:35] a
[00:50:35] elementary school
[00:50:36] recently, Donna,
[00:50:37] just
[00:50:37] in
[00:50:37] a
[00:50:37] morning
[00:50:38] walk in two hours
[00:50:40] at an
[00:50:40] elementary
[00:50:40] school.
[00:50:41] They, she,
[00:50:41] she
[00:50:42] and the administrator
[00:50:42] that
[00:50:43] she
[00:50:43] was
[00:50:43] walking
[00:50:43] with
[00:50:43] came across 12
[00:50:45] student
[00:50:46] facing
[00:50:46] apps
[00:50:47] that
[00:50:48] hadn't
[00:50:48] made
[00:50:48] their
[00:50:48] way
[00:50:49] through
[00:50:49] any sort
[00:50:49] of district
[00:50:51] filtering system. You
[00:50:53] know, these
[00:50:53] are
[00:50:54] apps
[00:50:54] that,
[00:50:54] that
[00:50:55] are, again,
[00:50:55] if
[00:50:55] student
[00:50:55] facing
[00:50:56] or
[00:50:56] are
[00:50:56] taking student time, but
[00:50:57] in some
[00:50:58] cases
[00:50:58] they even
[00:50:58] require
[00:50:59] like
[00:50:59] student
[00:51:00] personal
[00:51:00] information being entered into
[00:51:02] And,
[00:51:03] um,
[00:51:04] the
[00:51:04] administrators
[00:51:05] were shocked.
[00:51:06] But I
[00:51:06] think one,
[00:51:06] one
[00:51:07] truth
[00:51:07] that we've learned
[00:51:08] is,
[00:51:09] you
[00:51:09] know,
[00:51:09] going
[00:51:09] back
[00:51:09] to
[00:51:10] your fictional
[00:51:10] superintendent,
[00:51:11] uh,
[00:51:11] and you asked
[00:51:12] like,
[00:51:12] what
[00:51:12] would you
[00:51:12] advise
[00:51:13] a superintendent
[00:51:13] on
[00:51:14] is, maybe
[00:51:14] the very
[00:51:15] first
[00:51:15] thing
[00:51:15] would
[00:51:15] be,
[00:51:16] I
[00:51:16] want you to
[00:51:16] estimate
[00:51:17] how
[00:51:17] many
[00:51:17] minutes
[00:51:18] we're gonna
[00:51:18] see
[00:51:20] students
[00:51:20] are
[00:51:20] on screens.
[00:51:21] And
[00:51:21] almost
[00:51:22] always,
[00:51:23] it's an underestimate. Yeah.
[00:51:25] And
[00:51:25] I.
[00:51:26] think
[00:51:26] If
[00:51:27] you
[00:51:27] follow
[00:51:27] like
[00:51:27] at
[00:51:28] the
[00:51:28] secondary level,
[00:51:28] you know, kids go
[00:51:29] from period
[00:51:30] to
[00:51:30] period,
[00:51:30] follow
[00:51:31] a
[00:51:31] cohort of kids the whole
[00:51:33] then
[00:51:33] you'll get
[00:51:34] a real
[00:51:34] understanding about, oh man,
[00:51:36] it's
[00:51:36] true.
[00:51:36] They're getting this
[00:51:37] in period one, this in
[00:51:38] period
[00:51:39] two, this in
[00:51:39] period
[00:51:39] three.
[00:51:40] And
[00:51:40] some
[00:51:40] of
[00:51:40] the programs
[00:51:41] are good, but
[00:51:41] they
[00:51:41] should
[00:51:41] be
[00:51:41] supplementary, they should
[00:51:42] not
[00:51:43] be
[00:51:44] replacing,
[00:51:44] right.
[00:51:45] They,
[00:51:45] they,
[00:51:45] they
[00:51:45] should be
[00:51:45] augmenting, they should not
[00:51:46] be
[00:51:47] taking the place
[00:51:48] up. And
[00:51:48] in
[00:51:48] many
[00:51:49] places
[00:51:50] it's actually become the instruction
[00:51:52] Gene Tavernetti: or
[00:51:53] a
[00:51:53] substitute for
[00:51:53] instruction more accurately, I think. Makes sense.
[00:51:57] Bart: If we get this right, what could schools look like five years from now?
[00:52:01] Frank: Well,
[00:52:02] that's
[00:52:02] what started
[00:52:02] this
[00:52:02] whole thing
[00:52:03] was I was
[00:52:04] asking
[00:52:05] people,
[00:52:05] you
[00:52:05] know, in positions like
[00:52:06] yourself,
[00:52:07] what
[00:52:08] does this look
[00:52:08] like in
[00:52:08] 2032?
[00:52:09] And
[00:52:09] in some of the responses
[00:52:10] that
[00:52:10] I
[00:52:11] got,
[00:52:11] uh,
[00:52:11] that
[00:52:12] we got were
[00:52:12] like,
[00:52:13] 2032, I wanna make it
[00:52:14] to next,
[00:52:15] next
[00:52:15] week,
[00:52:15] you know,
[00:52:16] because
[00:52:17] it
[00:52:17] was tough
[00:52:18] coming outta the
[00:52:18] pandemic,
[00:52:19] right?
[00:52:19] With
[00:52:19] the kiddos
[00:52:19] running
[00:52:20] for
[00:52:20] the
[00:52:20] hills like we were talking
[00:52:21] about,
[00:52:21] and
[00:52:21] the,
[00:52:22] The mental
[00:52:22] health
[00:52:22] concerns and teachers,
[00:52:24] uh,
[00:52:24] worried
[00:52:25] about
[00:52:25] get coming
[00:52:25] back
[00:52:25] as
[00:52:26] well.
[00:52:26] So
[00:52:27] it
[00:52:27] was
[00:52:27] really
[00:52:27] tough in that
[00:52:28] setting.
[00:52:28] 20
[00:52:29] 22, 23,
[00:52:30] 24.
[00:52:32] So
[00:52:32] we're
[00:52:32] asking that,
[00:52:34] but
[00:52:34] I think,
[00:52:35] uh,
[00:52:35] you know, chapter
[00:52:35] six
[00:52:36] and
[00:52:36] then the
[00:52:36] epilogue really
[00:52:37] talk
[00:52:38] about,
[00:52:38] um, what
[00:52:39] they should look like if
[00:52:41] What
[00:52:41] it should look like is
[00:52:42] standards based, intentional personal
[00:52:45] instruction
[00:52:46] in the
[00:52:46] classroom
[00:52:46] with
[00:52:46] durable
[00:52:47] skills
[00:52:47] being built,
[00:52:48] technology
[00:52:49] being used
[00:52:51] in an,
[00:52:51] in
[00:52:51] an augmenting
[00:52:52] manner.
[00:52:53] But outside
[00:52:53] of
[00:52:54] that,
[00:52:54] there's
[00:52:55] connections
[00:52:55] going
[00:52:56] on
[00:52:56] with,
[00:52:56] you
[00:52:56] know, local parks
[00:52:57] and
[00:52:57] rec
[00:52:58] in
[00:52:58] Nicholas
[00:52:59] Bloom,
[00:52:59] uh,
[00:53:00] Nicholas Carr's
[00:53:00] book,
[00:53:01] super
[00:53:01] Bloom, he
[00:53:01] talks
[00:53:01] about
[00:53:02] the decline
[00:53:04] in, in youth,
[00:53:06] Um. You know, sports
[00:53:07] league activities,
[00:53:08] scouting
[00:53:09] church
[00:53:09] activities,
[00:53:10] something like
[00:53:11] 800 hours a
[00:53:12] year for the average
[00:53:13] teenager
[00:53:14] in
[00:53:14] the last
[00:53:14] 10
[00:53:14] years.
[00:53:15] Decline
[00:53:16] in terms of interacting
[00:53:17] with
[00:53:17] others. So
[00:53:18] it
[00:53:18] would
[00:53:18] be not just
[00:53:19] what's going on in the school,
[00:53:21] in our
[00:53:22] vision, in
[00:53:22] our
[00:53:23] hope, the school
[00:53:24] becomes a catalyst for a community wide and
[00:53:27] it might
[00:53:27] be asking
[00:53:28] a lot,
[00:53:28] especially
[00:53:28] like
[00:53:28] in really
[00:53:29] large districts and really big
[00:53:30] urban areas, but definitely you can be a hub.
[00:53:34] can be
[00:53:35] a hub where like, you know,
[00:53:36] restaurant
[00:53:37] nights in this community Thursday is no
[00:53:39] screens today.
[00:53:40] Gene Tavernetti: Something else that I think
[00:53:41] is gonna
[00:53:42] be happening
[00:53:42] in,
[00:53:42] in the public schools
[00:53:44] is, um, uh, especially when we're
[00:53:46] asking schools to have an instructional vision there will be
[00:53:51] a lot
[00:53:52] of schools of choice. because that's
[00:53:54] one
[00:53:54] of
[00:53:54] the things
[00:53:55] that,
[00:53:55] that
[00:53:55] we have found out
[00:53:56] or that we're
[00:53:57] competing against, is all of
[00:53:58] these
[00:53:58] charter
[00:53:59] schools
[00:53:59] that
[00:53:59] pop up with an emphasis with, with
[00:54:02] something.
[00:54:03] And I,
[00:54:03] I, I
[00:54:04] think that,
[00:54:04] I think that's good that, that we have choice, but
[00:54:07] we have
[00:54:08] to
[00:54:08] be
[00:54:08] sure that
[00:54:09] it's, we're
[00:54:10] protecting
[00:54:10] the kids
[00:54:11] the
[00:54:11] way that,
[00:54:11] the
[00:54:11] way
[00:54:11] that
[00:54:12] Frank
[00:54:12] just,
[00:54:12] just,
[00:54:12] talked about,
[00:54:13] unless,
[00:54:15] you
[00:54:15] know,
[00:54:15] the, the, uh,
[00:54:17] you know, we've
[00:54:18] got these, these alpha schools, alpha School
[00:54:20] now,
[00:54:21] unless
[00:54:21] you
[00:54:21] just
[00:54:21] choose
[00:54:22] that for
[00:54:22] your
[00:54:23] kids,
[00:54:23] but
[00:54:24] we need to, you know,
[00:54:26] be really
[00:54:26] clear about
[00:54:27] who
[00:54:27] we are
[00:54:29] and,
[00:54:29] and who we are is
[00:54:31] the
[00:54:31] way Frank
[00:54:32] described
[00:54:32] it
[00:54:32] right now is
[00:54:33] not,
[00:54:34] a bad place to
[00:54:35] be
[00:54:35] in the marketplace.
[00:54:36] I
[00:54:36] think a
[00:54:36] lot of
[00:54:37] people
[00:54:37] would
[00:54:37] choose
[00:54:37] that,
[00:54:38] but
[00:54:39] like many, like many charters
[00:54:42] or,
[00:54:42] you
[00:54:43] know,
[00:54:43] they
[00:54:43] start
[00:54:43] out
[00:54:44] in a certain
[00:54:44] way
[00:54:45] and
[00:54:45] then
[00:54:45] they
[00:54:45] devolve.
[00:54:47] So
[00:54:47] I
[00:54:47] think
[00:54:47] we
[00:54:48] have to
[00:54:48] be
[00:54:48] very careful
[00:54:49] about,
[00:54:49] uh, about maintaining that, that instructional vision
[00:54:53] so
[00:54:53] that
[00:54:54] people
[00:54:54] have an expectation of, you know, you come to here in this school
[00:54:57] district, this
[00:54:58] is,
[00:54:58] this
[00:54:58] is what
[00:54:58] you're gonna get. And,
[00:54:59] you
[00:55:00] know,
[00:55:00] and
[00:55:00] it's
[00:55:00] okay. You know, if you
[00:55:01] want
[00:55:01] your
[00:55:01] kids
[00:55:02] to
[00:55:02] be on
[00:55:02] screens
[00:55:02] eight
[00:55:03] hours a day,
[00:55:03] you know, then it's, this place isn't,
[00:55:05] isn't for you. But, but I think, you know, because of,
[00:55:09] of
[00:55:09] how
[00:55:09] effective
[00:55:10] we
[00:55:10] know we can be
[00:55:11] with the, with the technology
[00:55:13] to
[00:55:13] augment
[00:55:14] quality
[00:55:15] instruction, I, I think, I think we can create some good product.
[00:55:19] Frank: I
[00:55:19] think,
[00:55:20] um,
[00:55:20] the
[00:55:21] book is really
[00:55:21] augmented,
[00:55:22] um,
[00:55:23] by
[00:55:23] teacher
[00:55:24] interviews
[00:55:24] that
[00:55:24] we
[00:55:24] did.
[00:55:24] We probably
[00:55:25] did
[00:55:25] like three
[00:55:25] dozen
[00:55:26] teacher interviews, uh, k
[00:55:28] through
[00:55:28] college across the
[00:55:30] country,
[00:55:31] small
[00:55:31] districts,
[00:55:32] huge
[00:55:33] districts,
[00:55:33] uh,
[00:55:34] suburban districts,
[00:55:35] urban districts, rural
[00:55:36] districts.
[00:55:37] one
[00:55:37] of
[00:55:37] the things
[00:55:37] we
[00:55:38] noticed
[00:55:38] is that
[00:55:39] a
[00:55:39] lot
[00:55:39] of
[00:55:39] teachers
[00:55:40] talked
[00:55:40] about
[00:55:41] parents starting
[00:55:42] to push back
[00:55:44] On the amount of screen And
[00:55:47] in
[00:55:47] some.
[00:55:47] Districts
[00:55:48] where
[00:55:48] the
[00:55:48] te the
[00:55:49] teachers
[00:55:49] we
[00:55:49] interviewed
[00:55:50] for
[00:55:50] one particular subset of questions,
[00:55:52] we
[00:55:52] needed
[00:55:53] them
[00:55:53] to have been in
[00:55:54] the
[00:55:54] classroom teaching the
[00:55:55] same
[00:55:55] grade
[00:55:56] or close
[00:55:58] in
[00:55:58] a similar
[00:55:58] socioeconomic level,
[00:56:00] 20
[00:56:00] 14,
[00:56:01] 20
[00:56:01] 24. 'cause we
[00:56:02] were
[00:56:02] asking
[00:56:02] questions like comparing, comparing,
[00:56:04] you know,
[00:56:04] student, behaviors
[00:56:07] and such.
[00:56:08] and
[00:56:08] what
[00:56:08] we
[00:56:09] heard
[00:56:09] from them is
[00:56:09] that
[00:56:10] the
[00:56:11] same
[00:56:11] parents who in
[00:56:12] 2014
[00:56:13] for
[00:56:14] their older
[00:56:14] kids
[00:56:15] were
[00:56:15] advocating, you
[00:56:16] know, more
[00:56:16] and
[00:56:16] more
[00:56:16] and
[00:56:17] more,
[00:56:17] you gotta catch
[00:56:18] up.
[00:56:18] We gotta catch
[00:56:19] up
[00:56:19] by
[00:56:20] 2024.
[00:56:21] We're saying
[00:56:21] for
[00:56:22] their younger
[00:56:22] kids,
[00:56:23] let's
[00:56:23] get them
[00:56:23] off
[00:56:24] too much
[00:56:24] screen time. Um,
[00:56:26] the
[00:56:26] same
[00:56:26] parents. And so
[00:56:27] I think
[00:56:28] that
[00:56:30] there's
[00:56:30] a groundswell
[00:56:32] and
[00:56:32] it isn't
[00:56:32] just the books,
[00:56:33] it isn't
[00:56:33] just
[00:56:34] digital
[00:56:34] delusions.
[00:56:34] It isn't just
[00:56:35] ours. It
[00:56:35] isn't
[00:56:35] just
[00:56:36] the
[00:56:36] articles
[00:56:36] in the, in education next and in in New York Times,
[00:56:39] I think
[00:56:39] that
[00:56:40] parents
[00:56:40] are
[00:56:40] seeing
[00:56:41] it.
[00:56:41] Um,
[00:56:42] we
[00:56:42] were
[00:56:42] doing some research just for promotional
[00:56:44] purposes.
[00:56:45] We
[00:56:45] found a
[00:56:45] Facebook
[00:56:46] group.
[00:56:47] that's
[00:56:47] like
[00:56:47] reduced my kids'
[00:56:48] screen
[00:56:49] time,
[00:56:49] something
[00:56:50] like
[00:56:50] that.
[00:56:51] 280,000
[00:56:52] members
[00:56:53] of parent members in the
[00:56:54] us. I mean, That's
[00:56:55] a
[00:56:55] pretty big group.
[00:56:56] There's
[00:56:57] a,
[00:56:57] there's
[00:56:58] a
[00:56:58] groundswell
[00:56:58] for
[00:56:59] it. So I
[00:56:59] think that,
[00:56:59] um,
[00:57:01] like
[00:57:01] Jean said,
[00:57:02] if
[00:57:02] you want
[00:57:03] your
[00:57:03] child
[00:57:03] to
[00:57:04] have that, you're gonna definitely
[00:57:05] have
[00:57:05] the option if you
[00:57:06] want it to be
[00:57:07] on
[00:57:07] a screen for six, eight hours a
[00:57:09] parents
[00:57:09] didn't
[00:57:09] choose this. They didn't choose what
[00:57:11] we're seeing right now.
[00:57:13] And that's what we need to walk back,
[00:57:15] is
[00:57:15] that
[00:57:15] if they want that choice, they can
[00:57:16] have
[00:57:17] it. But this isn't what we should be doing
[00:57:19] in the mainstream public
[00:57:21] Gene Tavernetti: And I, and I
[00:57:21] think the big
[00:57:23] a big takeaway
[00:57:24] is nobody made this choice.
[00:57:26] It just happened.
[00:57:26] Bart: just happened. Yeah. I've really appreciated this conversation.
[00:57:31] In closing, I'd like to ask you what gives you hope?
[00:57:34] Gene Tavernetti: you know, there
[00:57:35] is A reaction. Unfortunately,
[00:57:37] it's another pendulum swing, from all
[00:57:40] of
[00:57:40] these screens to
[00:57:41] no screen
[00:57:41] time.
[00:57:42] That's
[00:57:42] not,
[00:57:43] that's
[00:57:43] not
[00:57:43] sustainable,
[00:57:44] That's not reality. That is not where we're going.
[00:57:47] so I, I, I think
[00:57:49] the
[00:57:49] fact that there are 280,000,
[00:57:51] I think that there are people,
[00:57:52] you
[00:57:52] know, stepping, stepping forward.
[00:57:54] Uh, that
[00:57:55] gives
[00:57:55] me hope.
[00:57:56] what diminishes
[00:57:57] that,
[00:57:58] that hopefulness
[00:57:59] a
[00:57:59] little
[00:57:59] bit
[00:58:00] is
[00:58:00] that
[00:58:00] it's
[00:58:00] always an overreaction.
[00:58:02] you
[00:58:02] know,
[00:58:03] we,
[00:58:03] we can see that
[00:58:04] in,
[00:58:04] in
[00:58:04] many of the things that are going on,
[00:58:06] like in schools of choice right
[00:58:08] now,
[00:58:08] where in states where they could take their kids someplace else. The question
[00:58:13] is,
[00:58:13] what
[00:58:13] happens?
[00:58:14] What happens to the
[00:58:14] students
[00:58:15] that, that, have
[00:58:16] special
[00:58:16] needs?
[00:58:17] They
[00:58:17] don't worry about
[00:58:18] them,
[00:58:18] you
[00:58:19] know,
[00:58:19] but
[00:58:19] that's something that, again,
[00:58:21] this
[00:58:21] is
[00:58:21] going
[00:58:21] back to institutional memory.
[00:58:23] This isn't new.
[00:58:24] You
[00:58:24] know,
[00:58:25] we have these,
[00:58:26] these
[00:58:26] things
[00:58:26] in
[00:58:27] place
[00:58:27] because of
[00:58:28] who we
[00:58:28] were
[00:58:29] before
[00:58:30] and we
[00:58:30] need,
[00:58:30] and we needed
[00:58:30] to get better.
[00:58:32] So,
[00:58:32] what
[00:58:33] gives me
[00:58:33] hope?
[00:58:34] More
[00:58:35] people
[00:58:35] thinking about,
[00:58:36] um,
[00:58:37] you
[00:58:37] know,
[00:58:38] there's a better way
[00:58:38] to
[00:58:38] do
[00:58:39] education
[00:58:39] Frank: I
[00:58:40] think
[00:58:40] Jean
[00:58:40] might
[00:58:41] be
[00:58:41] more
[00:58:41] hopeful
[00:58:41] than
[00:58:41] me,
[00:58:42] but,
[00:58:42] um,
[00:58:43] talking about
[00:58:43] the
[00:58:43] institutional
[00:58:44] memory,
[00:58:44] you
[00:58:44] know, there, if
[00:58:45] you go back,
[00:58:47] at
[00:58:47] least as
[00:58:47] far
[00:58:48] back
[00:58:48] as
[00:58:48] Madeline
[00:58:48] Hunter in the sixties and
[00:58:49] seventies, uh,
[00:58:51] the
[00:58:51] Effective
[00:58:51] Schools movement,
[00:58:53] uh, Ronald Edmonds,
[00:58:55] uh, Marzano
[00:58:57] the nineties and
[00:58:57] two
[00:58:58] thousands,
[00:58:58] the, and now his
[00:59:00] evaluation
[00:59:00] center,
[00:59:01] the
[00:59:02] 19 90,
[00:59:03] 90,
[00:59:03] schools,
[00:59:05] the
[00:59:06] the New Teacher
[00:59:06] Project
[00:59:07] Teach
[00:59:07] for
[00:59:07] America,
[00:59:08] which
[00:59:08] is how I started How
[00:59:10] I
[00:59:10] got into teaching. we,
[00:59:11] we
[00:59:12] know
[00:59:12] that
[00:59:12] there's an alternative path
[00:59:13] that is actually
[00:59:14] a very
[00:59:15] good,
[00:59:15] Path and, and, and
[00:59:17] we
[00:59:17] know
[00:59:17] how,
[00:59:18] what
[00:59:18] we should be doing in
[00:59:20] The
[00:59:20] question
[00:59:21] that
[00:59:21] Ronald
[00:59:21] Mond's, uh, the effect of schools movement task is
[00:59:23] how
[00:59:24] do
[00:59:24] we feel
[00:59:24] about the fact that we haven't so
[00:59:26] that's the
[00:59:27] hope.
[00:59:27] The hope
[00:59:27] is
[00:59:27] that
[00:59:28] we
[00:59:28] know
[00:59:28] what we've gotta do.
[00:59:30] My
[00:59:30] concern
[00:59:32] is,
[00:59:32] and this is
[00:59:33] part
[00:59:33] of
[00:59:33] our
[00:59:33] parent
[00:59:33] education
[00:59:34] series, '
[00:59:34] cause
[00:59:34] we
[00:59:34] also
[00:59:35] do parent
[00:59:35] education,
[00:59:35] which
[00:59:36] is actually another piece
[00:59:36] of
[00:59:36] it that I think
[00:59:37] is something we
[00:59:38] do that nobody else we're also working with
[00:59:41] the
[00:59:41] parents,
[00:59:42] is
[00:59:42] that
[00:59:44] I'm
[00:59:44] not
[00:59:44] gonna
[00:59:44] name any.
[00:59:45] companies.
[00:59:46] I
[00:59:46] don't
[00:59:46] wanna get su
[00:59:46] we
[00:59:46] don't want, we
[00:59:47] don't
[00:59:47] want to
[00:59:47] get
[00:59:47] sued.
[00:59:48] But,
[00:59:48] you
[00:59:48] know,
[00:59:49] in,
[00:59:49] uh,
[00:59:50] in the prologue of
[00:59:51] the book where the
[00:59:51] superintendent is
[00:59:52] really pitching, we're
[00:59:53] gonna
[00:59:53] go after this money
[00:59:54] and
[00:59:55] we
[00:59:55] need
[00:59:55] to
[00:59:55] get
[00:59:55] a
[00:59:55] screen
[00:59:55] in front of
[00:59:56] every kid. He talks about,
[00:59:57] getting
[00:59:58] a particular
[00:59:58] type
[00:59:59] of
[00:59:59] laptop
[01:00:00] into every child's hand because
[01:00:02] the
[01:00:03] digital
[01:00:03] companies are being great social
[01:00:04] citizens. They're
[01:00:05] helping the kids get
[01:00:07] access
[01:00:07] to the
[01:00:08] screens.
[01:00:08] They're
[01:00:09] helping
[01:00:09] write
[01:00:09] the,
[01:00:10] the common
[01:00:10] core
[01:00:11] assessments, you know, smarter balance in
[01:00:12] the park.
[01:00:13] and
[01:00:13] later
[01:00:14] on
[01:00:14] we
[01:00:14] found
[01:00:14] out
[01:00:15] that
[01:00:15] some of
[01:00:15] those
[01:00:15] same
[01:00:16] companies
[01:00:16] were
[01:00:17] data mining those
[01:00:18] kids
[01:00:19] as
[01:00:19] young as four years
[01:00:20] old.
[01:00:21] So
[01:00:22] I, what
[01:00:22] gives
[01:00:22] me
[01:00:23] pause is that,
[01:00:25] that
[01:00:26] there's
[01:00:26] a villain
[01:00:27] on
[01:00:27] the
[01:00:27] other
[01:00:28] You
[01:00:28] know,
[01:00:28] it
[01:00:28] wasn't
[01:00:29] a
[01:00:29] conscious
[01:00:29] choice
[01:00:29] by
[01:00:30] schools to go down this path.
[01:00:32] It was
[01:00:33] this
[01:00:33] broader
[01:00:33] digital immersion,
[01:00:35] but
[01:00:35] there was
[01:00:35] a
[01:00:35] conscious
[01:00:36] choice.
[01:00:36] So folks
[01:00:37] who
[01:00:37] are
[01:00:37] data
[01:00:37] mining,
[01:00:38] four
[01:00:38] year olds,
[01:00:39] five year
[01:00:39] olds. They
[01:00:41] who
[01:00:41] were giving
[01:00:42] free
[01:00:42] email
[01:00:43] access,
[01:00:43] let's
[01:00:43] say.
[01:00:44] But
[01:00:44] then data mining
[01:00:45] what
[01:00:45] the
[01:00:45] kids
[01:00:46] were
[01:00:46] writing so
[01:00:46] that
[01:00:46] they
[01:00:46] can market to them a
[01:00:47] few years
[01:00:48] later.
[01:00:49] There
[01:00:49] definitely is a
[01:00:50] villain in this, And that's what gives me but
[01:00:53] hopefully this
[01:00:54] groundswell, you know, the senate hearings that we're seeing now,
[01:00:57] there's
[01:00:57] gonna
[01:00:58] be enough of a.
[01:00:59] not a not a
[01:01:00] revolt, but,
[01:01:01] but
[01:01:01] a pushback. And I do hope that to Jean's
[01:01:04] point
[01:01:05] that we just don't go so far the
[01:01:06] other way that then we
[01:01:08] then
[01:01:08] lose,
[01:01:09] you
[01:01:09] know,
[01:01:09] it
[01:01:09] just becomes
[01:01:10] that pendulum again.
[01:01:11] Gene Tavernetti: I
[01:01:11] think
[01:01:11] just the
[01:01:12] of
[01:01:12] who we
[01:01:13] are
[01:01:14] in the United
[01:01:14] States,
[01:01:15] you
[01:01:15] can't tell
[01:01:15] me
[01:01:16] what to do.
[01:01:17] And then you
[01:01:17] have,
[01:01:18] uh, you know,
[01:01:19] I don't know
[01:01:19] how many school districts you worked in a, in a small school
[01:01:22] district
[01:01:23] For a while
[01:01:23] and
[01:01:24] they
[01:01:24] had
[01:01:24] a
[01:01:24] school
[01:01:24] board
[01:01:25] and
[01:01:25] they didn't
[01:01:26] want
[01:01:26] anybody telling them what to do.
[01:01:28] And so
[01:01:28] it, it, it's,
[01:01:29] it's
[01:01:29] difficult
[01:01:30] who
[01:01:30] we
[01:01:31] are,
[01:01:32] who
[01:01:32] we
[01:01:32] are
[01:01:33] is
[01:01:33] our strength
[01:01:34] and who
[01:01:34] we
[01:01:34] are
[01:01:34] is,
[01:01:35] uh, makes
[01:01:35] anything
[01:01:37] changing
[01:01:37] education
[01:01:38] difficult.
[01:01:40] Bart: Yes. Well, thank you both so much.
[01:01:44] Gene Tavernetti: Thank you.
[01:01:45] Frank: Thank you Bur yeah.
[01:01:46] Gene Tavernetti: yeah. If you're enjoying these podcasts, tell a friend. Also, please leave a 5 star rating on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. You can follow me on BlueSky at gTabernetti, on Twitter, x at gTabernetti, and you can learn more about me and the work I do at my website, BlueSky. Tesscg. com, that's T E S S C G dot com, where you will also find information about ordering my books, Teach Fast, Focus Adaptable Structure Teaching, and Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles.