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A podcast from Bright Wall/Dark Room, engaging with the business of being alive, one movie at a time. Hosted by Chad Perman & Elizabeth Cantwell.
Frank Falisi (00:00)
Not to wade into the like vulgar, like all Spielberg's movies are about directing or making movies, but this is like many of his films, and certainly like Minority Report, I think far more interested in what happens when these images are put together, rather than if we could only put these images together, we could save the world.
Chad Perman
Hello and welcome to the Brightwall Dark Room Podcast. I am Chad Perman, and Elizabeth Cantwell is here with me as well. Elizabeth, how are you? Where are you? What's up?
Elizabeth Cantwell (00:52)
I'm doing good, Chad. Great to see you again. ⁓ and I'm super excited to to talk to Frank this week. yeah, I'm doing good. ⁓ sorry. I already screwed it up.
Chad (01:01)
Spoiler alert, Frank's the guest. No no that it's gonna say it's gonna it's
it's gonna say it on the episode ⁓ thing, so yeah. Only for people that can't read. Good.
Elizabeth (01:09)
⁓ no, I'm doing good. I'm I'm
in summer summer mode, full teacher summer mode, which is glorious. So I'm reading a lot of fiction and watching movies and, you know, going for walks, which is exciting.
Chad (01:18)
Yes.
Ooh.
Sounds like
you have a little bit of free time finally. Not much, but some. Enough. I'm doing good. yeah. ⁓ my life doesn't change seasonally too much, except for slightly less clients and a more open schedule in the summer because it's summer and people travel. ⁓ but other than that, just just doing the same old thing as always. but
Elizabeth (01:30)
Yes.
Enough, enough. How are you?
Chad (01:51)
We probably shouldn't figure it out on air. ⁓ but you will be coming to the s place where I live.
Elizabeth (01:57)
I am coming to your I'm gonna say your address right here on the air. No, we're actually gonna see each other in person in a couple of days, which is very exciting.
Chad (02:01)
Yes. And then I will give my social security number.
Yeah, but it's really
I think it's the first time I mean, I've never actually met your husband in person, but ⁓ it's the first time you guys are coming to Seattle for a week. And it is ⁓ when you told me all excitedly, I said, That's cool. I'm leaving the day after you get here So So we have one day to make it work, so we will figure that out. Figure that out off air, but yes, we will make sure it happens. And I'm looking forward to meeting Chris too, finally in person.
Elizabeth (02:15)
that's crazy.
We're overlapping. It's gonna work out.
Yeah.
Chad (02:35)
Yeah. And
So we are actually doing a movie while it's probably still relatively new in theaters,
if you're a regular listener to the show, you know we do talk about all kinds of things from the movie. Usually the movies have been out for a while. But in this case, if you haven't seen Disclosure Day and don't want it spoiled, definitely hit pause and come back to us later. and with that out of the way, I'm gonna welcome our guest. not a new person to anyone that's listened to the show before. ⁓ it's Mr. Frank Felice, who
is a fantastic writer. He's been contributing to Brywald Dark Room for years now. ⁓ we battle over who gets to edit his essays because they're so much fun. And if you think they're fun to read, well, they're even more fun to edit. So ⁓ welcome to the show, Frank, and disclose on us.
frank (03:20)
Hello guys. I'm so excited. Yeah. This is this is the fifth time. This is the Five Timers Club. If you if you really wanna
Chad (03:22)
Yeah.
fifth! Wow. Wow. Where is the ja
You've got you've got the five timers tank top on.
frank (03:33)
Mm-hmm. The five
the fifth y at the fifth time they give you an old Yankees hat and a ratty Florida tank top.
Chad (03:39)
All right. Yeah. So we are yeah, we're all in the same virtual space and we're all talking about a movie we've all seen in a theater on a big screen, some bigger than others. Frank, I'm not sure if you've seen it twice yet. You mentioned you might get a rewatch in, did you? It happened. All right. So you so
Elizabeth (03:39)
I'm excited to earn mine.
frank (03:43)
Yeah, it's this is great.
It happened, yeah, yesterday. Yeah. Got to see it again.
Chad (04:01)
Elizabeth saw it two days ago, you saw it yesterday and I saw it four days ago. So this is as fresh as it gets in Brightwall Dark Room World anyway.
Elizabeth (04:10)
It did it
did stress me out a little bit to not be able to take notes ⁓ but I kept thinking in my head, like, Okay, remember this, remember that, remember this. So I'm excited for our conversation.
Chad (04:20)
Yeah.
And I purposely did not ask you anything about it because your opinions frequently surprise me. I know Frank's opinions goes because we've talked about it, at least a little bit of them. ⁓ I don't even know if you liked or didn't like it, so that's where I want to start. what did you think of Disclosure Day in seventy millimeter?
Elizabeth (04:38)
I okay, I'm trying to think. I don't I don't have an easy, I don't have an easy opinion, I'll put it that way. I felt like I really enjoyed, the experience of seeing it. There were aspects of it that I loved. And then I also felt like the more I thought about it and talked about it afterwards, the more I was like, ugh, did that work for me? Did that work for me? Like I was left with some lingering questions about whether or not aspects of it.
Chad (04:41)
Hehehe.
That's the best. That's the best.
Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth (05:04)
really landed for me. ⁓ but I loved, I mean, how can you not love seeing a Spielberg movie on the big screen, especially one engaging with like all of his it felt to me like such a rich Spielbergian text in terms of how it's engaging with themes that he's played with for decades. So yeah, that was a great, it was a great experience. I'm not sure all of it worked for me, ⁓ but I enjoyed it.
Chad (05:06)
Yeah.
absolutely.
Yeah, and there's no requirement that all of it worked for you, but I'm really excited to hear about what did and didn't as we get into it. ⁓ and Frank, ⁓ first impression, and then I guess you're the only one that can give us the second impression.
Elizabeth (05:42)
Mm-hmm.
frank (05:42)
⁓ my first impression is ⁓ Elizabeth, I I like that you mentioned that it seems like the farther you got from the movie, you sort of started to like feel maybe slightly differently about it. I think of all the filmmakers that I love, and I do really truly love and admire Steven Spielberg, his movies do the best live. They're because they're so sort of visceral and that there is there is something about like when you are sort of inundated with the image, it is really
something. And then afterwards sort of like wha what was what was that? ⁓ so I don't know. I'm I'm I'm curious to hear more about that and what those things were.
Chad (06:16)
did like a did a second viewing hit any differently for ya?
frank (06:20)
I think I enjoyed it more because what I love about Steven Spielberg is the way he moves the camera. So the first time you see it, you can only focus on one of the moving elements. And the second time you see it, you can focus on another moving element. So I think that's that was sort of the upshot of the second viewing was being able to move my eyeballs to a different kinetic object in the frame, of which there are are many.
Chad (06:41)
So many I mean, I I was clocking that without being able to track it. You know, I was like, ⁓ man, I'm I can't wait to rewatch this.
Elizabeth (06:48)
Definitely like the
Spielberg camera is is one of my faves. So yeah. I can imagine I can imagine that seeing it a second time would be enjoyable in that way.
Chad (06:52)
Nothing beats it.
frank (06:57)
Well, ⁓ it's just like at a certain point, like once ⁓ once the car stuff starts, I I remember thinking like, ⁓ in every shot there's a car and a body and a camera moving independently. So you can just sort of the endless sort of like triangulations. Like I it looked like basketball to me. It looked like the triangle. That's what it felt like. It was like watching When the Triangle Worked, which was in New York City with the New York Knicks under Phil Jackson. No.
Chad (07:10)
⁓ wow.
No.
⁓ yeah, hey, New
York Knicks. Frank, you're there. Championship fever. Yeah. Okay.
frank (07:26)
Had to get it then. No, no, no, d don't make me say.
Elizabeth (07:30)
Well, in that
way, in that way, Frank, I know a lot of people were are you know, before the movie came out, people were saying, it's like a spiritual sequel to Close Encounters and ⁓ obviously Spielberg has played with alien themes in many movies. But to me, that aspect that you're talking about, it reminded me of Minority Report in a lot of ways. Of like this is one extended sort of chase movie about people trying to get away from a
frank (07:51)
yeah.
Elizabeth (07:59)
authority figures who are trying to get their information and it was really reminding me of minority report.
Chad (08:02)
Yeah.
There was I mean the the flow of it reminded me a lot of that too, where it I mean, I don't I don't want to be wrong here, but I think it started in Media Res too. I like you're just kind of thrust right. I mean, we we should talk about the first shot. I was very confused for a Spielberg movie to start with like wrestling and the camera being punched and all this other stuff. I was immediately that got my attention. And from then on, it I feel like till like I don't know.
maybe with ten minutes left, I was trying to figure out what was going on the entire rest of the time. And I just I love watching movies where as long as I trust that the filmmaker knows what they're doing, which obviously it's Spielberg, so I did, I was like, okay, they're gonna explain to me as it goes along and this is part of the fun of it is I have to keep paying attention the whole time.
like at a certain point I was even getting frustrated. I like, okay, this has gotta they've gotta start giving some more information because what's happening? ⁓ but I love that. I mean I was frustrated in a pleasurable way. So ⁓ yeah, I don't know how it felt for you guys, but I just felt like from the opening second, it's just you're off. And I remember minority report feeling all like that as well.
frank (08:53)
Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth (08:59)
Yeah.
I do think the pacing is impeccable in terms of like it never drags, you're always moved along from one scene to the next. It doesn't feel like many Spielberg movies, it doesn't feel like it's it's length. Do you know what I mean? Like you I felt like I was in the theater for, I don't know, an hour and forty five minutes. I wouldn't have said two and two and a half. Yeah.
Chad (09:19)
Yeah.
Yeah, no, it it it it raced Like it was incredibly well paced. I I never felt any time where I was like wanting to check my watch. I I noticed my wife did, but I I never did. I was like, I kinda don't want this to end. So ⁓ but yeah, I mean so
We've each had not long periods of reflection time on it and Frank's obviously had the most and seen it twice. ⁓ for me, ⁓ there was parts when it happened, I was like, the last ten minutes didn't quite work for me. ⁓ now, you know, a few ⁓ a few days later they do work for me. So ⁓ there's
I don't get all into like, the mechanics of this doesn't work or this plot point doesn't make sense. I don't care about that kind of stuff as long as it's a good movie. I don't need that part explained. So there's some stuff I was like, that that probably wouldn't make any sense. But ⁓ I kind of 90% liked it leaving the theater, and I'm I think I'm at about 98% now liking it. So ⁓ it went the opposite way for me. I liked it more and and I think watching it again will hopefully confirm that. But yeah, I mean what
Elizabeth, you mentioned that you ⁓ you and Chris stayed up late having a very helpful argument or something like that. So
Elizabeth (10:27)
We did. Well, no, I'm
but I'm actually interested, Chad, that you didn't like the last ten minutes because I feel like that's the majority of reviews I looked at afterwards. That was the part that people were like, Well, this final ten minutes is amazing and that's where the key of the movie is. And ⁓ yeah, that's interesting to me that for you that last part didn't land.
Chad (10:30)
Okay.
Yeah.
I mean I l I liked I
I should say I liked it in terms of the ⁓ thematic part of it and the tone and all that stuff. I did I just didn't actually i it felt it felt like someone, you know, like Spielberg would do. But the stuff of like I I just don't really truly think that everyone that's what I left the theater thinking and then I realized it doesn't matter. I don't think everyone on earth, even for something this big, is all going to stop everything they're doing to look
I don't think local news coverage is going to be immediately patch into everything and everyone's gonna believe it's real. There'd be a whole like period of pe so I just didn't buy that or I didn't even really need to see all of that. I I thought the news anchor was great. be like all that you had to do in those few minutes and Frank the actor might be able to s tell us how hard it is, but I'm just guessing without being an actor that looks impossibly hard to have to do three or four different things all at once convincingly.
⁓ I loved I loved how it ended, like the actual last word and where it cut off at. ⁓ so it was more about I I just ⁓ I didn't like the screens filled with all these things like here's Fox News and here's NBC and here's this and here's this and I know. I I didn't like that aspect of it, but that's more on the filmmaking level than the the story level. If that makes sense.
Elizabeth (11:56)
Yeah. ⁓ do you guys think that Spielberg has read ⁓ Watchmen or not?
Chad (11:57)
Yeah.
I wouldn't put anything past Spielberg, you know. He's he's a pretty voracious consumer of things. But I I don't know. Why why are you asking?
Elizabeth (12:11)
Be because it does
because it feels like the ending does feel like the same move as the ending of Watchmen in terms of like World War Three or the big horrible global conflict is going to stop because of aliens, right? And we're all going to have to turn our attention to these interstellar in Watchmen you could say interstellar invaders or or like a negative
Chad (12:19)
Mm.
Yeah.
Elizabeth (12:39)
thing in this movie, it's obviously like they are empathetic. ⁓ but it's more about the the the s the like shock of knowing that this has been covered up for so many decades. But it is sort of like the same move as Watchmen, ⁓ which I thought was interesting.
Chad (12:56)
Mm.
That is inter I I don't know. I I've never heard him reference that, but I mean I don't know. Frank, what
Elizabeth (13:01)
I did also like,
if we're talking about the ending, which I guess we are, ⁓ I did think there was some interesting ambiguity in the images of everyone just staring at their phones. Like that was such an interesting moment where it felt like that is where we're at in our world where if there is gonna be a moment of massive ⁓
Chad (13:05)
Yes.
Elizabeth (13:24)
connection where everybody's watching and understanding the same thing, that connection will actually look disconnected. ⁓ if you know like like the the images of everybody just looking at their phones, that's actually the image of supreme disconnection.
frank (13:38)
yeah, I think it's really interesting that we don't see the war stop and that we don't hear the message beyond that first word. And I think it's really revealing when people read that ending as overly earnest, super sentimental, you know, liberalism will save us all. Because it like by the text it actually doesn't.
Chad (13:54)
Yeah. I of it.
frank (13:59)
Like it's it's certainly implied. I'm not trying to make the argument that Spielberg like galaxy brained here. But I do think the opening shot is useful in so much as like that opening shot like calls attention to the camera, right? Like you're seeing the camera get pummeled in this sort of violent act. And the last shot of the movie is is not a it's not a shot of Emily Blunt, it's a shot of a camera on Emily Blunt. So
Chad (14:15)
⁓ yeah.
Yeah.
frank (14:22)
Right, not to wade into the like vulgar, like all Spielberg's movies are about directing or making movies, but this is like many of his films, and certainly like Minority Report, I think far more interested in what happens when these images are put together, rather than if we could only put these images together, we could save the world. Does that make sense?
Chad (14:27)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Elizabeth (14:43)
I like
that interpretation, Frank. Yeah, I really like that a lot.
Chad (14:47)
And I hadn't thought at all about the the the opening shot being this massive visceral assault on your senses and the very last part being being listen. Yeah. Yeah.
frank (14:53)
on the camera. Like he's stepping on the camera. You have this sort of like and it's almost like
they're showing you we could do this with the camera and we can do this with the camera. And like I know this is this is like this is like a post Fablman's reading, but like
Chad (15:03)
No.
frank (15:08)
just I'm just putting it together ⁓ on the fly. This is our yeah.
Chad (15:11)
Okay.
Elizabeth (15:11)
I also felt like
I felt like that opening scene could also be read as a moment, like a lead in to this story about deception and lies and what is the truth, with like a wrestling match, which is the ultimate performance of performance of a lie that people buy as truth because they want it to be true. so thematically I thought that was really cool.
Chad (15:22)
Mm-hmm.
Ha ha
frank (15:34)
And a and a lie about violence, right? That also contains violence, right? And that's the that's like the s the obsession of Spielberg for the last twenty five years is like how can I how can I show you violence in a productive way or in a way that will help? Or can I do that? Or is the act of putting an image on, you know, the celluloid a violent act? I don't think he knows, but I do think he is feeling it out all the time.
Chad (15:53)
Yeah.
Elizabeth (15:58)
Well, can we
talk about Josh O'Connor's performance? Cause I thought he was I thought he was fantastic. without that actor doing what he was doing, I don't think the movie works as well. I think he played the like sort of everyman protagonist, if you want to say it that way, ⁓ so convincingly he felt so realistic in his reactions.
Chad (16:01)
Yeah.
frank (16:02)
yeah.
Elizabeth (16:22)
⁓ I was on his side from minute one. I felt like he carried such sort of ambiguity of emotion in his performance. I honestly felt like I could take or leave Emily Blunt at moments. But I felt like ⁓ yeah, sometimes she was just like so much that I was like, I'm with Wyatt Russell, like calm down, lady. but I felt like Josh O'Connor's performance was so calibrated.
Chad (16:34)
I really liked her too.
Yeah.
Elizabeth (16:47)
to what you needed to do in that part. It just that that really that I think helped the propulsive nature of the movie as well, because you're following him so closely.
Chad (16:54)
Yeah.
Well and also thinking that ⁓ least for the first s two thirds of the movie, I was thinking this is he's the main hero, he's the protagonist, this is all him. And then there's kind of a a a flip where you're like, she's gonna be the one that we're most attuned to and following ⁓ but I thought that again, to
To have a performance where you can maintain a consistent performance, whether you're the hero or the co hero or the side he wasn't really a sidekick, but you know, I yeah, I feel like every other movie I watch he's in, but not found a movie that he's bothered me in. ⁓
I think it was a perfect choice for this. I y you know, if it was I don't I never looked into the casting stuff, but if it was gonna be somebody a little bit more classically ⁓ heroic in some way. ⁓ like Tom Cruise in Minority Report or something, it w it wouldn't work. I think it has to be like an everyman. I think I think he's our maybe our best everyman right now.
frank (17:46)
I do think he's got the juice. Like of all the sort of oversaturated young boys, I think he does have the juice. ⁓ and it's always positive. ⁓ I I I think he comes close to not working for me in the movie, only because I think what I appreciated about what Emily Blunt was bringing was a sort of like ⁓ cartoonish element.
Chad (17:49)
Yeah.
And he's on a Chris, so that's good.
frank (18:08)
⁓ which at this point in Spielberg's sort of conception of what the world looks like, I think calls for a sort of larger than life. ⁓ and I think it was it was interesting to watch. I think O'Connor was really like directed into doing that. And there's cer certainly like moments where he I think rises to the occasion. But he's really come of age in an era where acting doesn't look like that anymore. And Emily Blunt, God bless her, she's been in some real bad movies, but she
Chad (18:22)
Mm.
Yeah.
frank (18:33)
She's a she's a real schmackter. She can really
go for it. ⁓ and I thought she so maybe her her her her poor calibration was appreciated by me here. ⁓ but I like I can't complain because I think the scene, right, to your question, Chad, where like what really works for you, the train sequence is I mean, it's so it's so much, but the payoff is the two of them together afterwards. And
Chad (18:43)
Ha ha.
man. ⁓ man.
frank (19:01)
⁓ really works for me. And so I can't I can't fault O'Connor because he really works in that moment.
Chad (19:06)
You're you're talking
about when she's basically doing what no one actually does in after big action sequences where they take a second to be like, Wow, I'm freaking out here. Like I just went through a lot and he kinda calms her down and holds her hand, all that kinda
frank (19:12)
Mm-hmm.
huh.
Elizabeth (19:19)
I
mean the also the the piano strings nature of it, the fact that they're in the train car with instruments, I thought that was like that was so beautiful and so great.
Chad (19:23)
I know.
Yeah, such a nice touch.
And we obviously know Spielberg's mom was a was a classical penis, wasn't she, in the Fablements? Yeah, so there's like, just touch touch these strings and connect with my mom's energy. Yeah, I'm sure that wasn't exactly thought through, but he is. That was in your letterboxing. I agree a hundred percent.
frank (19:29)
Uh-huh.
Elizabeth (19:34)
Yes.
frank (19:35)
huh.
He's a he's a weird guy. Steven Spielberg's a weird guy and
Sometimes he does something like this and I maybe it was someone else's idea, maybe this is in the screenplay, I don't want to cede it all to him, but like he said, yeah, hang a bunch of pianos around and have them just sort of rattling around. It's an amazing image, it gives a lot of visual pleasure, it's really provocative looking, and it really sets literally the tone for that scene. Great. Love it.
Chad (20:08)
Yeah.
Yeah, and and right on the heels of like we get to catch our breath as an audience too and calm down because I mean he the the train sequence is so good. I think one because it doesn't drag on. I mean, it's not like a twenty minute sequence. ⁓ you know, and then there's the of course the Fablemans part of like, hey, the the train set and all that kind of stuff. I'm gonna reference the Fablemans every chance I get. But it was
frank (20:14)
Yeah.
Chad (20:32)
It was really intense. It was shot in a way that, you know, like a master can shoot that to make you feel it. And then normally you would just move on to the next set piece or you'd, you know, move on to like, here's now back to Colin first and his turtle mic or whatever. And I thought, like, no, it's actually showing that yes, I I need a second here. I'm freaking out. I'm worried of everything from like I have, you know, the Parkinson's that my parents had or whatever to
frank (20:40)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (20:55)
What's happening and what are we doing? And ⁓ and again, he doesn't try to answer anything. He just does what you're supposed to do in that time. He just tries to comfort her and calm her down and kind of ground her. You know, in the therapy world, we'd say that's a great grounding technique if you have someone else around that you trust. ⁓ it was just it and it was beautiful and it gave this resonance to their relationship that then carried throughout the whole rest of the movie from that point on.
Elizabeth (21:17)
Okay, so speaking of their relationship
though, I have a theory, but I'm curious I'm curious. I think there was an in my mind, there must have been an early draft of this script in which they were revealed to be brother and sister. Because you have Hansel and Gretel, you have the Hansel and Gretel House, it's the two of in the Hansel and Gretel house, famously siblings, Hansel and Gretel. Don't know if you guys knew that. ⁓ also he drops
Chad (21:20)
Okay.
Yeah.
Elizabeth (21:44)
All of this stuff about I don't remember my childhood, I have large chunks of my childhood missing. He looks at her at one point and says, Do you know anything about my childhood? She purposefully avoids his gaze and will not engage with him around his childhood. And then that's just totally dropped. And the childhood moment we see is hers. We are left with a empty space for him, which felt that was one thing that I thought.
Chad (21:56)
Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth (22:12)
did not work for me is you f it felt like there's all this stuff in there about his past. And then it's just completely like, well, we're just gonna go with her past instead. And you're there, by the way. ⁓ we don't know how you got there or where you went back to. And it just felt to me like clearly they were they should have just been brother and sister. but maybe David Kepp got a note to take that out. I don't know.
Chad (22:38)
Well or yeah, 'cause also the alien it seemed like would have been much easier, ⁓ for them to find and reconnect with each other if they weren't two random people, but
Elizabeth (22:46)
And
and he says like I know you and she says I know you too and I know you could interpret that as like well because they saw each other on the alien operating table, but it felt like they had a deeper connection than that. I don't know. That was my and I struggled with why you would build in all this stuff around his lack of a childhood memory if it just didn't matter.
Chad (22:54)
Yeah.
Yeah, well, ⁓
Yeah.
Yeah, and that feels to me like to your earlier one of our earlier points that I didn't think about that at all during that, and that would be something that would probably come up I mean, were you wondering that during or were you waiting for them to reveal that they were actually brother and sister or or is this okay.
Elizabeth (23:23)
I just assumed they were brother and sister. And
and so I was watching it through that lens because I was like, Hans Lingretel, they know each other, he doesn't know his childhood. I know how stories work. They're related. And then it was like, well I guess we'll never know. Or maybe that's the sequel.
Chad (23:29)
Yeah.
yeah. No, I could totally see that.
Disclosure day two electric disclosaloo.
Elizabeth (23:46)
Ha ha
ha.
Chad (23:47)
I don't know Frank, it's up to you. What do you think about that theory?
frank (23:49)
⁓ I
I I it's a good theory. It accounts for a lot of the the holes in what's going on because rewatching it last night I thought we don't know how he got on this alien operating table. He's just sort of there. ⁓
Chad (24:01)
Okay.
So that that wasn't I I was just wondering, as Elis was saying, I like, maybe I just just didn't remember 'cause it wasn't as memorable as hers. But they n they really never explained how he showed up there? Yeah.
frank (24:10)
Not really. They also like they
make an oblique reference to like the the trauma in her past and it's like, was it this? Was it but like they didn't know it was aliens. ⁓ it is i it's ⁓ it's that's where the script is really chak a block. And it's just like get keep moving, keep moving, keep moving. ⁓
Chad (24:16)
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Elizabeth (24:27)
Yes. I
really struggled with that because it doesn't make sense if you're trying to logic your way through it because Wyatt her boyfriend, Wyatt Russell, knows about some traumatic event in her past. And he says to the doctor, She suffered a deep trauma in her childhood. What did she tell him that trauma was? Did she say, I suffered trauma, but I don't want to talk about it? ⁓ he knows the dream. He knows the Hans Lingretel dream, but it
frank (24:38)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (24:39)
Yes.
Animals took me to the forest. Yeah.
Elizabeth (24:54)
In his mind it's obviously a dream. But I just didn't understand like well what was the narrative around the trauma that she clearly talked to at least Wyatt Russell about.
Chad (25:02)
Yeah, and that
frank (25:05)
They felt
⁓
frank (25:06)
I I think it had the it had the feeling of Luke and Leia about it. It had the sort of like which is itself a make maybe they miswrote that. ⁓ but it it felt also like the matrix to me. Have this sort of like the way they're talking about them as like it's always been you two, it's always been this two and this sort of like the destiny thing. I don't know, maybe this is maybe this transitions us to talking about like Spielberg and his tendencies because
Chad (25:11)
Mm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
frank (25:32)
It's very easy to feel very deeply with his images. It's sometimes harder to speak intelligently about them or to treat them intelligently because they don't always take themselves intelligently. Right? Like there is a tendency to sometimes be more about the image than the written.
Chad (25:43)
Hmm.
But I think the feelings he's trying to inspire in you through the image,
He said therapy's not for him. I think he might have tried it once or something like that. But his main kind of thing was, I work all my stuff out through my movies. And I think that he knows how to evoke it. He doesn't know how to articulate it. And I think that Tony Kushner is the best at
pushing him into articulating it enough that Tony Kushner can then shape the language that would get some of that across. ⁓ I don't think that's, you know, David Kepp's like strong suit necessarily. That's not what he's there for. ⁓ so I don't know, but it but I do know what you mean where a lot of times I have a lot of emotions around the images ⁓ and the framing and the mu I mean a lot of stuff. And I thought, by the way,
John Williams great score. I think he's like in his nineties now. ⁓ It wasn't like continually just trying to milk your emotions like a lot of, you know, some of those scores have at various times. ⁓ but so I think he trusted himself a little bit more than like, okay, if I do this in a way that will mean something to me, other people will get some of what I'm trying to get across here. And ultimately, you know, whether or not it makes quote unquote sense is you know.
Up to people to decide what they want to do with that or if they want to think past, you know, the images I'm giving them. But I don't know.
Elizabeth (26:58)
I
like that you were talking earlier, Frank, about how like you could interpret many of his movies as being about directing. I think that this movie to me felt like he was talking about performance in a lot of ways. performance in a good way and performance in a bad way, right? You have all of these performative aspects. Like we already talked, I already said my thing about the wrestling, but you also have this.
Person whose job is to perform for an audience as a weather person slash newscaster. You have the question of news as performance, right? That that we do cable news as performance. ⁓ you have people being possessed by Colin Firth, which I would love to talk more about, but Colin Firth performing as these other people. You have the performance of her house and her childhood, which
Chad (27:28)
Ha ha.
⁓ man, there's so much to talk about, yeah.
Elizabeth (27:52)
I know I already said do we think Steven Spielberg has read Watchmen, but do we think he's watched ⁓ Nathan Fielder's show? Why am I why am I blanking on ⁓ the rehearsal? Has he watched the rehearsal? As soon as they walked into the warehouse with her house, I was like, ⁓ fuck, this is the rehearsal. ⁓ but that's also about performance. And there's so many, yeah, there's just so many threads you can pull through there that are fascinating.
Chad (27:59)
Redmond.
frank (28:01)
The rehearsal, yeah.
Chad (28:02)
Nathan
Free okay.
Yeah.
frank (28:16)
huh. ⁓
Elizabeth (28:20)
And the performance
of the performance of our national myths about aliens as well.
frank (28:25)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (28:26)
Yeah. Yeah.
frank (28:26)
Yeah. I it's even at the textual level, like her like crisis from the mid movie on is like, I'm a vessel. I'm a vessel. And then she starts, but but I'm not just a vessel. Like this is my past, this is my childhood. So it really it feels like an actor who's like gone too far with the Stanislavski who's freaking out, who's sort of like, No, no, no, like I'm not just here to do that. ⁓ and you I think what really crystallized last night was you have you have the two director
Alternatives. You have Coleman Domingo, who's the good director, who will like get you there safely and and and sort of put you back in that feeling. And you have Colin Firth who demands the performance. ⁓ yeah, performances for sure. That makes a lot of sense to me. I love that.
Chad (28:59)
⁓ Hugo. Yeah.
Ooh, I like that.
Yeah.
And just wanna say I love I love Coleman in this. I love Hugo. He makes me feel happy when he comes on the screen, even though I don't know if there's anyone really that ⁓ calm and reassuring at all times, but I loved it. Yeah, I think yeah.
Elizabeth (29:21)
I struggled
I struggled with him. I I felt like I felt like he was there. No, I felt like he was there to to read lines. Like there he did he did a lot of lines. I'm not saying he was a bad actor. I'm saying his character was written as like this is the character who says the lines that tell us about the thing. Like he didn't feel like a very embodied character.
Chad (29:23)
All right. You don't like peace.
frank (29:24)
Say more, say more.
Well ⁓
Chad (29:31)
What?
frank (29:33)
I agree.
Chad (29:37)
yeah.
Yes, yeah. No the the empathy thing I loved, but
yeah.
frank (29:45)
This
this I thought this last night and I thought, can I think this? But I'm gonna say it anyway. Why not? Elizabeth, I thought about the shining because he's sort of there to be Dick Halloran to her, to be like, Yeah, like you like, but that's sort of what she can do. Once she gets the power, she has the shining. She can sort of like she has this tenuous and tentative relationship with people and space, but she can sort of slip through it and he's there to sort of like be the good guy to say, yep.
Chad (29:50)
Yeah.
Look at her shirt.
Elizabeth (30:00)
Yes.
Yes.
frank (30:12)
Here's the rules. I'm gonna help you get there. Yeah.
Chad (30:14)
Hmm.
Elizabeth (30:14)
I like that. I
like that a lot. I was also thinking about the Exorcist, obviously, in moments, especially when the first reaction to her sort of weird fit thing is like, well, put her in the MRI machine, right? And like obviously these questions of like religion, faith, what you know, yeah. I think that there's there's some interesting stuff going on there. The possession aspect was really interesting to me, especially when you have that.
frank (30:19)
Mm-hmm.
Mm.
Chad (30:29)
Yeah.
frank (30:40)
Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth (30:41)
first possession scene with ⁓ Colin Firth and Jane. That's her name, right? Jane, yeah. And she's and she's clutching the crucifix in her hand and there's just so many interesting like layers there.
frank (30:48)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Chad (30:50)
Jane, yeah.
frank (30:53)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Chad (30:54)
yeah. There's some stigmata
stuff and w don't know how to say that word when you're not a nun but you're on your w the no no novitiate. What's the word?
Elizabeth (31:03)
That sounds right.
Chad (31:04)
Novitiate? I don't that anyway, whatever that word is. I loved that. There was Okay. All right. That was yeah, everyone everyone had all these kind of big reveals to each other too. ⁓ disclosures you might say.
Elizabeth (31:07)
Whatever Maria was in Sound of Music.
frank (31:10)
There you go.
Elizabeth (31:12)
Ha ha.
Wow.
Chad (31:19)
Yeah.
frank (31:20)
Sure.
Sure.
Elizabeth (31:21)
Okay, but the the to go back to the argument that Chris and I had, which I think was, you know, it was like a not a argument. It was like a productive discussion where we were disagreeing. But I do think that this film tries to and this goes back to this performance idea, tries to ride an interesting line that I don't think works for everyone, where I think it's trying to be both realistic and not realistic on purpose. And so
Chad (31:31)
No, you you said it nicely. Yeah.
Elizabeth (31:50)
the starting point of our argument was over the CGI animals, which I felt very strongly, and I'd love to hear your opinions, that those were supposed to look bad on purpose for a variety of reasons. Chris felt very strongly that this was an old man who didn't know about CGI and that it sucked. And I was like, that's that's wrong. Do you I at one point in the car
Chad (31:54)
thought a lot about it.
Yes.
I I'm on Team
Elizabeth in that one.
Elizabeth (32:15)
We were driving
home and I was like, Do you really think Steven Spielberg was watching the footage going, That looks exactly like a fox? He definitely was not. But I do think it doesn't work for everybody. And I don't think the movie I don't think the movie did enough to show that it was intentional. You know what I mean? I I'm I'd love to hear your opinions.
Chad (32:18)
Ha ha
it told man my w
How but how would you?
I mean, how would you show that like, how how would you I guess they're I mean, since they weren't they could have given Hugo a line of like, here's why the animals look like I
Elizabeth (32:39)
I mien
Well, and on online. I posted this online and there were a lot of really interesting reactions. Some people said, like, no, it's shitty CGI and some people said, I think it's supposed to be there were interpretations where people were like, I think it's supposed to look like the stuffed animals in her room, like they appeared to her as she would have imagined these sort of childhood stuffed animals, which is interesting but only works for Emily Blend's perspective, but sure.
Chad (32:45)
But I think it's a litmus test.
Yeah.
Elizabeth (33:10)
I kind of felt, and I think other people felt like this too, that I I felt like we were seeing the animals through the perspective of these two experiencers who could see them for what they were, which was a performance of animals. And potentially for other people in the film, they did appear to be real animals. Because you do have two moments. You have her ⁓ Wyatt Russell seeing the cardinal and just being like, that
Chad (33:23)
Mm.
Elizabeth (33:35)
Crazy bird, get out of here. And not being like, why does that bird look like a computer made it? And then you also have Jane when they go into the farmhouse being like, they're just deer, get over it, right? so it seemed to me like in the the way I interpreted it was in the world of the film, the experiencers see them for what they are, but other people maybe don't. But maybe I but Chris said I'm giving the film too much credit.
frank (34:02)
What if it's somewhere in the middle? And what if because like what the animals have to do in this movie is look. Like they have to look. They have to give the Spielberg look. And animals can't do that. Animals don't do that. So you're stuck in you have to create a false animal in order to create that look.
I I I don't know, like it's almost like well of course they had to be CGI in that way.
This isn't an answer, but I I I think it's somewhere in between. Like we wanted them to look purposefully bad. We wanted them to look purposefully good. It's sort of like that's what was rendered. And that's what is rendered in these moments of confrontation. There's a he says something so strange ⁓ when he sees the deer in the house. And he's like, Look, he's making the eye contact and we have this sort of moment. And he says the last thing he says before they go away, he's like, and they and they run away when you take out a camera.
It's a weird like throwaway line, but like it feels so baked into like the interest of the of the of the artist, right? Like there's something about like putting that camera in the animal's face and they break contact. Putting the camera in the human's face and it breaks contact, but these animals don't. I don't know what that is. I think it's generative. I come down on the side of it's generative and and productive trouble.
Chad (34:53)
Mm-hmm.
And yeah, I I I think one of Elizabeth's theories I was that's where I was at and the other one was way deeper than I was thinking. but the thing about I thought it was supposed to look how kids would have experienced like for example, like the
think it like a the Coca-Cola bear that we grew up with or whatever of like that doesn't look like a real bear, you know, but it does look like a comforting image to a child of what's look. I mean, I think their main point was they had to get these kids to come with them and not be freaked out. So that they were supposed to look not like a realistic animal, but they were supposed to look like some cartoonish, but still clearly this is an animal, which is what bad CGI would end up looking like, ⁓ in order to get them, you know, to pay attention to them and not feel, you know
If a normal looking red cardinal flew into my living room and stared at me like that and it was I would have freaked out. But instead she was just kinda like transfixed and like, what is this thing? and all that. So I don't know if that fully makes sense. It makes sense in my head.
like I just don't think it was on bad on purpose. Like I I just can't I can think of lots of things about Steven Spielberg. I just bad on purpose or didn't see how this was gonna look or whatever. you know, that that that's just like goes against everything I've ever heard about Steven Spielberg and how he works. ⁓ so I mean you know.
Elizabeth (36:23)
Yeah, I I I was willing
to give it the benefit of the doubt, but I do think this film asks and maybe this is, you know, a meta textual thing this film is asking throughout, but the film asks for some faith in its project, right? And and like it doesn't benefit from you going, Yeah, but what about that time when he had the thing and he didn't do this? You know, like that's not a productive conversation, I think, about this movie.
Chad (36:27)
Yeah.
Yeah. Absolutely, yeah.
Ha ha ha.
Yeah.
think that yeah, we might not know the reason why. I just think that you can tell Chris that I think the only reason for sure not why is that he doesn't know how to make realistic looking animals in his movies. If he wanted to, he'd have had the most realistic.
Elizabeth (37:00)
Well
But along with that was he had a larger ⁓ a larger objection with the film that I have seen a couple other people I was trying to read some reviews bring up, which is it does not fit feel like a realistic version, and this is something that one of you said earlier, it doesn't feel like a realistic version of what would actually happen today. Chad, I think it was you. ⁓ it's not it doesn't feel like it's taking place
Chad (37:25)
Yeah, I think I press that.
Elizabeth (37:30)
in a realistic 2026 necessarily. ⁓ there's aspects of that world that feel almost like you're in the nineties version of 2026, if you know what I mean, in terms of like how things are functioning. but I think I don't think it would have been an interesting movie if it was just all about cynicism and power that shuts everything down. ⁓ but we do live in a world that feels like
Chad (37:42)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, that makes sense to me.
Yeah.
Elizabeth (37:58)
Like
I think you said, I don't know that everybody would be. I actually felt, and maybe this is super cynical of me, that I couldn't imagine as many people being emotionally affected by scenes of torture to extraterrestrial beings as the people in this film were. I felt like so many people would just not care. And that was a troubling thought that I had because people were so affected by these scenes of them like hurting.
Chad (38:11)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Elizabeth (38:23)
these beings and I just fe I can imagine a world in which like that I mean I I can imagine the in the present day people wouldn't necessarily feel that way.
frank (38:33)
I mean we sort of know they wouldn't, right? Like you can scroll and like the images of Gaza, like it didn't. So
Chad (38:40)
I I I don't think everybody would have. I don't think it would have been, you know, the the main like terrifying point to people or horrific point. ⁓ but I I do think it were desensitized to certain kinds of violence and then yeah, I I've never seen an alien being tortured. I don't watch that many movies where that's a plot point and maybe there aren't any. ⁓
frank (38:58)
Several Spielberg movies. Yeah.
Chad (39:00)
Well yeah. True.
Or like yeah, E. T. Yeah, I felt I felt he wasn't tortured, but I felt bad when he was dying. Yeah.
frank (39:07)
Some violence there. They do some gnarly things
to an alien in a War of the Worlds.
Chad (39:11)
But they were bad aliens in that case, so you had to. These were just yeah, yeah. I also thought like I don't know if this'll even ⁓ make sense to anyone else, but I also thought of
frank (39:14)
Well, there you go. It was post nine eleven.
Chad (39:23)
⁓ it reminded me in certain ways of like contact, like some of the that the Jody Foster, Robert Zemeckis movie. I mean, it didn't remind me like plot wise, but just
vibe wise maybe it had kind of a contact vibe for me, ⁓ in certain ways. If does that hit anything with anybody or am I just delusional here?
Elizabeth (39:40)
I buy it.
frank (39:40)
Well contact
is yeah, contact is is religion and science, right?
Chad (39:42)
I should say I love contact.
Yeah. Yeah. I love conta I was I saw that like three times in the theater but
frank (39:48)
I thought about Zemecas a lot, actually, especially with the CGI. Like I do think I'm I don't want to invoke late style because as a term that sort of brings with it a bunch of baggage, but I do like that we're getting old man style from these guys. Like Elizabeth, I really like what you said about how it's like the nineties conception of what twenty twenty six is. A lot of people walk around with that conception. And Steven Spielberg is one of them. And I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing, because in many ways like
Chad (40:00)
Ha ha
Yeah, the
frank (40:14)
Yeah, it would be better
if if the only if the only service cellphones played was to cue people into a sort of cataclysm that united them. Like yeah.
Elizabeth (40:22)
Yeah, I do think that that aspect of it did work for me so many times in the sense that I felt like it was at moments an older Spielberg movie that I was watching. I felt like he really tapped into yes and and I thought that was great. I have no complaints about that. I just think it's one of those things that you have to accept about the movie that it's yeah.
Chad (40:34)
Yeah, I think that's intentional.
frank (40:44)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (40:45)
Yeah.
And I do think why I mean, not that I've read a ton of reviews, but the ones that I've read, you know, people younger than us. ⁓
have a really hard time accepting what we have no problem accepting in terms of what you just said. Like if it's a nineties version of what twenty twenty six would be like, that's fine with me and it doesn't put me off at all. ⁓ I think even though back then we thought it was a fairly, you know, cynical time and Generation X and all this stuff, I think we're in such a more cynical, awful time now that that in retrospects looks like a nostalgic time, you know, and I think that ⁓ I also think that Spielberg
I think he tries to make most of his movies with a mind towards I'd like these to be timeless, I'd like these to work a hundred years from now. I don't know. I really like yeah, it's just a simple point I'm trying to dress up. I really like how Spielberg movies make me feel while I'm watching them a lot of the time. ⁓ and I think that a lot of people just reject that. I mean,
like to Frank's point, like he's a weird
Dude who's working out a lot of shit on screen all the time. And obviously, I think even if I wasn't a therapist, that would just be fascinating to me. ⁓ I don't always understand what he's trying to work out. But I mean, like, the Fable Mans stuff, you know, gives us a lot of insight into the retrospective view on certain things. But I think It's like, okay, now he's made the Fablemans, he's, you know, he's had his big cathartic like breakthrough, like, okay, I finally put it all up on screen and worked through all of it. ⁓
And then what do I what do I make next? And then it it I was just like how there is a house, you know? ⁓ like he had to create his own house in the Fablemans and s shoot scenes in there, and how weird would that be to go back to your childhood house? And then in this story, there's the character going into her childhood house and talking about how weird it is. And I'm Yes, maybe someone else wrote that, but I can't think that there wasn't something he was working out just by because they didn't have to do that to me. Like they could have just said
I mean like there's many other ways to get that plot point across without bringing her back to an exact reconstruction of her of her childhood home.
Elizabeth (42:35)
Well,
especially a reconstruction of her childhood home that felt inexact in certain ways, like, ⁓ the bedroom is show me a child's bedroom that looks like that. There's it was perfectly organized, perfectly clean, perfectly laid out, and you know, like yes, exactly. And and that's not like if you think about the kids' bedrooms in E. T. like
Chad (42:41)
Yeah.
Yeah, there's a little uncanny valley to it, yeah.
Elizabeth (43:03)
Those are messy, real bedrooms. That was clearly like a simulacrum of a bedroom, ⁓ which was really interesting to me.
Chad (43:03)
Yeah, no, they were those were very realistic, yeah. Product placement.
Yeah. Yeah,
maybe what Guinness that that the one limit of these ⁓ aliens is that th they can basically do do what AI does, which is like we can get close, it's not quite right, but you know, here's our version of an animal, here's our version of a house. Yeah, you're right.
Elizabeth (43:23)
Well but that was that was Hugo.
Can I say a visual thing that I loved? That's off topic. ⁓ okay, so because it I remind I was thinking about it because ⁓ it was in that house sequence when she holds the device, which I don't know what I'm curious to hear what you guys thought about that device. But when she holds the device and she makes everybody go invisible, but they can still see the device. I thought
Chad (43:31)
Course.
Yeah. I love that
Elizabeth (43:50)
I was like, holy shit, this is brilliant. Because throughout the whole movie, there are these horizontal lens flares that you're seeing, like pulled throughout the whole movie very deliberately in a way that almost bothered me at certain points. Like I was like, my God, Janice Kaminsky, like calm down, you know. But in that moment, it felt to me like that was th those horizontal lens flares were playing on that horizontal flare of light.
Chad (43:58)
I did notice that was the first time through, yeah.
Ha ha ha.
Elizabeth (44:18)
And again, maybe I'm making too much of it, but it well, what made me think of it is that I hadn't noticed well, I hadn't noticed that it was there because I had gotten used to seeing it throughout the film. Do you know what I mean?
Chad (44:20)
I did not think that, yeah, but that's fascinating to think about. Frank's ought twice though, so
frank (44:32)
I don't think we can be
too conspiratorial with Disclosure Day. ⁓ and like, no, I think to like I think that's great, Elizabeth. And I think in a larger way of looking at it, right? Like I think this is just and this is sort of how style for Spielberg and Kaminsky together, like this very sort of muted grayscape, like big brights sometimes, some ways, and lens flare. That's how they're
Chad (44:37)
Yeah.
frank (44:56)
Like that's the thing, a thing they're pursuing that's bringing them pleasure. I have no problem it's not my visual fantasy, but like I I don't know, I I sort of take it to be their lingua franca. That's like just how they're working. And those lens flares are a part of it. And there's something about that that just visually stimulates the these collaborators. Sure.
Chad (45:14)
I just thought
it was a Spielberg ripping off JJ Abrams. ⁓ Come on, that was a good joke. They've they talked about his lens flares for so long. Anyway.
Elizabeth (45:20)
Chad No
But J
J. Abrams are often diagonal. I'm just gonna say. They're they're different. They're diagonal.
frank (45:26)
They did. They did.
Chad (45:28)
just just I've never thought
frank (45:29)
She's right. She's right. No, and the and
these are the bars, yeah.
Chad (45:31)
of I only had the joke, I had no conceptual anything beyond it. It was just for lol's
frank (45:35)
Yeah.
Elizabeth (45:35)
Listen, if you want to talk about lens flares,
I am here.
Chad (45:40)
I we should we can do a whole episode on best lens flare sometime. Yeah.
Elizabeth (45:42)
Ha ha
frank (45:43)
⁓
Elizabeth (45:44)
⁓ but yeah, I did think that visually so much of it worked. I I don't know if the faith I don't know if the faith and religion stuff worked for me. But yeah, if ⁓ please talk about it if you liked it.
Chad (45:59)
No, I I sa I liked
it in that it wasn't what I thought it was gonna be. Like I like that they didn't make like, ⁓ you know, like it like
that she the was it Jane was the girlfriend's name. I thought like she was had all these doubts about like, this will destroy everyone's worldview. And I like, that is such a cynical view of
what religion is to a lot of people. Maybe the a lot quieter people than not talking about religion people. ⁓ and then this, you know, wisened figure like Elizabeth Marvel's she was so she was so good. so many good faces in this movie. ⁓
and I was like, This is great. You know, like they're not demonizing the religious view and they're actually saying, like, here's a person representing like a spiritual tradition who's like, No, this this doesn't challenge my worldview. It enhances it. So that that's what I liked about how they portrayed it. ⁓ I you know.
I d I'm curious to hear your guys' thoughts on what did or didn't work about the religious aspects.
Elizabeth (46:50)
I think I just feel like the X Files did it better. But
Chad (46:53)
Well
yeah, I mean you could say about plenty of things though. For you could specifically. I heard someone say it was like the ⁓ the whole movie was like a really good X Files episode.
Elizabeth (46:58)
I just
Well, no, I don't think it was actually. And I think that that's where the script and the film tried to do so much. And some of it I think landed really well. And some of it I think didn't land as well. And for me that was something that felt like another conceptual layer on top of these questions of empathy, family stuff, interpersonal connection.
Chad (47:05)
I didn't think you would.
Elizabeth (47:23)
interglobal connection, ⁓ cover-ups, conspiracy, like to add the religion aspect on top of that felt like it was it was just too crowded for me. And I felt like the questions they were bringing up weren't deep enough or unique enough for me to really latch onto them. But that but that's, you know, again, while you're in the moment of it, you're like, great, let's do it. Let's hold the crucifix.
Chad (47:34)
was a lot going on.
Ha ha ha ⁓
frank (47:48)
I I think it's really useful to to connect aliens and animals and God or whatever we want to use that phrase for, as the movie does, right? Like those are sort of like as the non-human entities in the movie. And like, I don't know, just hearing this conversation, like it's curious to me that like no matter what happens in a movie, people made it. So that's that's where that's where stuff clangs with like
Chad (47:49)
He had a stigma onto his kid.
Sure.
Ha ha ha
frank (48:13)
Those animals look weird, they're acting weird, or those aliens don't look like how I imagined they would, or like the religion isn't right. We've never gotten a movie made by a cardinal. We've never gotten the movie made by an angel. And like there is this sense of like, but the camera tells the truth, and is the truth good enough? Like I don't think the movie is consciously raising those questions, but I do think it is aware that the that humanity is the dominant voice here.
Chad (48:17)
yeah, didn't talk about that. That was intentional. Sorry.
frank (48:39)
in a good and bad way.
Elizabeth (48:41)
Yes.
Chad (48:41)
And it
that's intentional, right?
Well, I I was thinking of human I I mean, 'cause it definitely seems like that, you know, empathy has been very demonized and
frank (48:42)
Yeah. I yeah.
Chad (48:49)
I think that they're like, No, it's actually a higher form that was the more obvious kind of statement of it, but I think there's a lot of humanistic kind of touches to it too.
Elizabeth (48:56)
Although I did think it was to go back to Spielberg being a weird guy and sometimes a contradictory guy, it was interesting to me that the way we saw Emily Blunt use the empathy the most in the film was as manipulation. She used empathy to manipulate consistently. She used it to manipulate the police officers. She used it to manipulate Colin Firth. She used it to manipulate all those people where she was like, I'm gonna, you know, like get through this crowd of people using this empathy manipulation. ⁓
Chad (49:24)
Yeah.
Elizabeth (49:24)
that was really interesting to me and made it more it made the stuff with empathy, I think for me more compelling because it would be too simple to just say, You just need to understand each other and look in each other's eyes. ⁓ like you could see that empathy could be weaponized. ⁓ which I thought was cool.
Chad (49:36)
Yeah.
sure. Absolutely.
frank (49:42)
Yeah. Yeah, I love that. ⁓ because
How do want to I ⁓ no, I'm working this out. Like because people want to talk about Spielberg as either an artist or an entertainer. And some people are on one side and some people are on the other side and some people pick their shots on which ones they are. But I think the truth is he does one thing and it's always both of those things. And the thing about like the camera as a form of empathy, it only works in so much as like he always knows as the guy behind the camera where the other body is going to go because he told them where to go.
There is like the manipulation is built into the system. So again, the notion that it could be a good or a or an evil doesn't seem to interest me.
And what's so useful, I think, about this film's version of empathy is that it is manipulative and that it is predicated on a director knowing where he's blocked the bodies to elicit an emotional reaction. And I don't think the film has a upside opinion about that.
But it does it the whole time. And so maybe this is like what gets us back to the post Fablman's reading of like where he truly doesn't always know why he did something, but he knows he's got the levers and he can crank them up and he can move down. And that's to hear to yeah, to hear that hear empathy be the sort of avenue through which that is being moved. That's interesting.
Is this a hopeful movie?
Elizabeth (51:01)
I mean, it's I do think that it's hopeful in the sense we mentioned that it would imagine many, many millions of people all being emotionally affected by this revelation. I think that is a hopeful worldview. but I do to go back to what you said earlier, Frank, I do think it's important that we don't actually see global conflict cease.
You know, we it's not like we cut to a like an image of soldiers laying down their arms. Like we we don't see that. So we're not sure what will happen next. I also think that the lingering question you're left with after any conspiracy movie like this is, you know, how will the revelation of that conspiracy affect the fabric of social trust? And as we know from living through
the COVID pandemic, number one, but also many other things like that. Like there is this gradual erosion, I think, of social trust and of empathy when you live through events that prove to you that the authorities are not on your side. And I don't know that he's I don't know that the movie itself is willing to say like, and if we all knew that the government had been covering up aliens
Everyone would be okay. I don't know that we're there yet.
Chad (52:15)
Yeah.
Yeah,
I I just grew up thinking that like it it must be in lots of stories, this idea that we would all kind of forget our problems and see ourselves as you know one one earth and one thing if alien life presented itself to us. ⁓ and I think that that's part of what he's doing, but he doesn't show what happens after listen. ⁓ I I don't think anyone's gone.
going to l I mean they might listen to her, but I don't think that's going to ha bring about this big empathetic awakening, no matter how good whatever imagined speech she gives past that point was gonna be. ⁓ I think, you know, for better or for worse, people are gonna be people. ⁓ but I wrestle with whether it's hopeful. I I think it it presents a path in which there is hope, but I don't know if it means it's hopeful feeling. ⁓ because I I filled in the blanks when the camera cut with like, yeah, and then
I mean I I did go back in my head to the pandemic and I like, Yeah, I would have thought too, like, hey, we can all kind of join together and you know, in the first week when everyone was making bread and you know, d passing on like here's how we can stay in touch during this, you know. But then as it dragged on, I was like, Yeah, ⁓ it all the messy human elements of us would get in the way and there'd be factions and there'd be, you know, there would absolutely be people that said, This is all a hoax, and you know, there would be fight, there'd just be all this stuff we saw.
during the pandemic. ⁓ that was so disheartening and dispiriting for me about humanity. ⁓ so I think it was smart to cut it off there. But I think that's a hopeful cut, if that makes sense. Like I'm gonna cut it here. We've got everyone together and listening, which doesn't happen ever now, where everyone is focused on one thing and you know, I I'm doubtful whether that would ever happen, but if it did certainly
Hey, the aliens are real and they've been real for like seventy years and they ha might have ways to offer us out of all this. would be a contender that might get people's attention. ⁓ I just think that would really quickly, you know, splinter and So that's not hopeful, but that's not in the movie, so
Elizabeth (54:11)
And I do think another hopeful hopeful aspect of it is like, yeah, there might always be people trying to cover up the truth, but the truth will always rise to the top, right? Not because it is truth, but because there are enough people who will recognize its importance that eventually it will be known, right? I think that was like a very hopeful saying I want to believe.
Chad (54:34)
Are you saying the truth is out there?
Elizabeth (54:40)
yeah, but I do think that well, you know, the X Files again, like this is the primary question is like, will the truth always be known or not? And I do think there's enough people in Spielberg's movie that unite together to to fight for that, that that's a hopeful thing.
Chad (54:57)
Yes. And we didn't ask the big question that I'm sure everyone asks but like any insight into why Spielberg always comes back? Is it just because that was a big fascination of his as a kid or what why even post fablements, he's back to aliens. So what's he didn't work that out of his system. What what thoughts or theories do we have about why has he made movies about aliens so often
Elizabeth (55:16)
I think he's always made movies about encounters with the other.
Chad (55:20)
Say more about that. What do you mean?
Elizabeth (55:21)
Well, like if you think about his filmography, sometimes the other is a racial other, sometimes it's a national other, sometimes it's ⁓ an animal other. ⁓ if we think about Jaws. but there are so many like this, I think the alien is the ultimate metaphor for the encounter with the other. And if we think about American history, it's solidified in the nineteen fifties
Chad (55:30)
Yeah.
Elizabeth (55:47)
with Roswell right around where we were grappling with the atom bomb and grappling with xenophobia and the civil rights movement and these questions of aliens feel like a very easy thing to connect metaphorically to larger questions about identity and belonging. And I think that like those are those are things that Spielberg is always playing with.
Chad (56:10)
Yeah.
I wonder where that comes from, I don't know, what do you think, Frank?
frank (56:13)
I I buy that for sure. ⁓ I think aliens are also interesting because to our knowledge they're the thing we don't have photographic proof of. So for a mind who seems to think instinctually in terms of blocking bodies in frame and the cap the way the camera like moves through it, like telling stories about aliens and telling stories about these kinds of encounters is always asking you to think cinematically. ⁓ I think aliens are also like
We're always talking about American aliens. We're not always, but for the most part, we're talking about America's idea of aliens, of like Superman and Flash Gordon and like these are the sort of like aliens are Americana. and I think the other is Americana too. So I buy what Elizabeth's laying down.
Chad (56:55)
Yeah. that synthesizes it for me, yeah. I like it.
Elizabeth (56:58)
Yeah,
and I do I like especially if you go back to like the the footage of the footage the government has been holding back is this sort of classic Americana myth footage, right, from the fifties, from the sixties, from the seventies. and it it connects with American ideas of government and politics throughout. I mean, which is something that I think, you know, Spielberg is also a very American director.
⁓ and he's he's interested. Yeah, he's really interested in like what what does it mean to be situated in this place at this time. ⁓ and again, maybe in this case it's more of a nineteen nineties America. ⁓ but yeah. Yeah. And I also wouldn't be surprised, he probably has said somewhere that he truly believes in aliens, right? I think David Kep has definitely said he believes in aliens.
Chad (57:28)
No argument there, yeah.
I haven't heard that. I would believe it.
Elizabeth (57:50)
I'm pretty sure
I'm I'm I'm pretty sure David Kepp believes in aliens. Do you guys believe in aliens?
frank (57:52)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (57:56)
I mean, yeah, I mean I've I've just always thought, ⁓ that that contact line of like it seems like our Carl Segan line, it seems like a giant waste of space. if there's not I just I just can't imagine with with all we know about how big the the universe is that that we would be the only things on this little, you know, pale blue dot.
frank (58:08)
huh.
Chad (58:16)
that have any kind of conscious awareness or life or anything like that. ⁓ have plenty of theories about why we wouldn't have seen them yet. but, you know, I I I do hope that
that I live long enough to to see that there is in fact something else, but my belief is that yeah, of course there's there's other intelligent life in the universe besides us. I can't imagine that there's not. What about you though?
Elizabeth (58:36)
I mean, I was unable to access the alien files when I was at the CIA for three months. I did not have n need to know access on aliens. So I can't say I can't say what I think. But I I would hope that there are other beings. And I think that I think that in my mind There's no way the universe functions the way most of us thinks it functions.
Chad (58:42)
For God, you were there, yeah.
Elizabeth (58:59)
And there's no way the universe is as logical and ⁓ teleological and bound as many of us have to believe it is in order to operate. So I think, yeah.
Chad (58:59)
Yeah.
That's a key. We do need
to believe that it does. Or that it is, yeah.
Elizabeth (59:13)
But I think there's
I think there's stuff we don't understand and maybe we'll never know.
Chad (59:18)
All right, Frank. What's the verdict?
frank (59:21)
I take the
Jordan Peel's Nope approach in so much as the belief in aliens is enough to say that aliens exist, right? Like we could call an octopus an alien, you could call an angel an alien, I think it's about the relationship. ⁓ yes, I literally don't think we're alone because I'm not like I I'm not an egoist, but also seems to me that when we speak about aliens, we're speaking about animals as well.
Chad (59:29)
Yeah.
Do we all have animals? What's when we speak about aliens, we speak about animals?
frank (59:44)
I hope that gets taken out of context. I hope people like just pull that quote. They got this idiot? What
Elizabeth (59:50)
Chad, I know you have to go. I know you
frank (59:51)
What is he talking about?
Elizabeth (59:52)
I'm so glad we all had time to sit down and talk about this movie. I I know a lot of people were saying like this would be a perfect last line for Spielberg's filmography, but I really hope we get another Spielberg movie. especially because it would be great to talk about another Spielberg movie with both of you. So there's plenty more to say. for today. For today, ⁓
Chad (1:00:05)
Yeah.
Yeah. Frank, so good to have you here. Yeah.
frank (1:00:16)
So good to be
here, y'all.
Elizabeth (1:00:17)
What are you what else have you been watching or reading, Frank?
frank (1:00:21)
I I had to take a year off in the middle, but I finally finished Lonesome Dove and I timed it so that I'm literally driving like west on Saturday. I'm going to like South Dakota. We're going on a big old road trip. So I've been like feeling feeling that kind of a migration. ⁓ I would I've never seen the limited series. I'm told the limited series is great.
Chad (1:00:29)
⁓
wow.
Yeah.
frank (1:00:48)
Well, the book was wonderful.
Chad (1:00:48)
Yeah.
Elizabeth (1:00:50)
I
loved the book. I read it last year and I thought it was fantastic. And then I resi I'm I'm resisting the limited series because I feel like my conceptions of the characters from reading the book were so clear in my head and I kind of want them to stay that way, which yeah, speaks to the book's power.
frank (1:00:53)
Okay.
Chad (1:00:54)
Okay, I gotta read it, yeah. 'Cause Ethan always talked about it too.
frank (1:01:05)
Yeah.
Chad (1:01:08)
Mm.
frank (1:01:10)
That ending is something else. We talked a lot about endings today, but I but did not see that coming. Spoilers for Lonesome Dove.
Chad (1:01:14)
I don't know, don't tell me.
Elizabeth (1:01:17)
No spoilers, Chad. No spoilers, Chad.
Chad (1:01:20)
I I gotta stay offline until I've had a chance to read it because everyone's talking lonesome devil.
frank (1:01:25)
Isn't isn't but isn't that the rumor that someday we'll get a Spielberg Western? I feel like he's been talking about like that's the one he hasn't done.
Chad (1:01:29)
I feel like and then I think
Elizabeth (1:01:29)
So
Chad (1:01:31)
in that great New York Times profile I right around when this movie came out, ⁓ he he it I think it I feel like it could be somewhere else, but I think he said in there, ⁓ or maybe the writer said in there. ⁓ did you guys read that profile? It was so good. I'll read I'll read anything Wesley Morris writes or or yeah, he's fantastic. But yeah, he said he was working on a Western. ⁓ or I think I think Wesley Morris said he was.
frank (1:01:34)
Mm-hmm.
I did not know.
Elizabeth (1:01:45)
No.
Chad (1:01:54)
I dunno I don't know. Don't fact check me on that. But yes, it's in the air that there that he his next movie is a Western. But he always has lots of I mean, he's had so many projects out there that I don't know. I do think there's no way this is his last movie that as long as he's healthy and, you know, conscious and breathing that he's gonna be trying to make movies. I don't think he knows how to not, you know.
frank (1:02:08)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth (1:02:13)
That's the
sense the Fablemans gave us for sure.
Chad (1:02:14)
Have you been reading the discourse I did for a minute and I was like, I don't I don't want to. Basically if you like it, they say you're old and I can't argue with being old, so I I'm out. I was like, I don't think that's why I like it. I think I like it because it was propulsive.
frank (1:02:17)
I've been trying to avoid it.
Yeah.
Mm. I don't know a single movie
that I've enjoyed more because of reading the discourse for, so I yeah. ⁓
Chad (1:02:36)
Yeah, exactly.
and Lindsay Romaine's actually she's writing on this one for for the blockbusters issue. Yeah, so
frank (1:02:40)
Mm hmm. ⁓ wonderful. wonderful. Nice.
Chad (1:02:45)
She saw it and wondered if she could write about it, ⁓ but she wa she just said she wanted to situate it in the context of his whole career and all this other stuff and and she loves him and
frank (1:02:53)
Mm-hmm.
Chad (1:02:55)
yeah, Frank, any anything you want to shout out that you point people to or socials or Summer's good. Yes. Yeah. It was fun. Yes, it was wonderful to have you here. Thanks so much.
frank (1:02:57)
⁓ no, I wanna shout out Summer. I wanna shout out Summer. Yeah. This was a pleasure, you guys. So fun. Yeah.
Chad (1:03:08)
Thank you everybody for making this work. This was awesome. And ⁓ yeah, and I think we can leave it with listen.
Elizabeth (1:03:10)
No, it was so fun. Yeah.
frank (1:03:11)
Of course.
Chad (1:03:19)
Cut.
in. That that was
I have no idea what his job was. Like I thought he was a musician, but I don't does it ever actually show him playing music? He said I've got work What is
Elizabeth (1:04:16)
I think he was like, yeah, a musician.
And they had a beautiful apartment. Yeah. Well, I think he's still supposed to be Kurt Russell's son in that universe, so he has family money. Yeah, that's Kurt Russell's son.
frank (1:04:22)
It was really nice. He's a well paid musician.
Chad (1:04:23)
Yeah, that's
frank (1:04:30)
Heck yeah, I knew we were
Chad (1:04:31)
Wait, is he Kurt Russell's son? I
frank (1:04:34)
I knew we were getting an on camera reveal. This is disclosure day.
Chad (1:04:35)
I didn't know that.
Elizabeth (1:04:37)
Yes, that is Kurt Russell's son.