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Green Shoots & Big Shifts is hosted by Reetu Gupta, who started the show to have open, hopeful conversations about what it really takes to make sustainability part of how we live, lead, and work.
Each week, she talks with people doing innovative, meaningful work, turning ideas into action. From startup founders and corporate change-makers to community leaders - reimagining how business, society, and the planet can thrive together.
These are stories about innovation, collaboration, possibility, and the everyday shifts that move us toward a more abundant and resilient future.
you're listening to Green Shoots and Big Shifts
the show that spotlights the people and ideas
transforming our world for the better
I'm your host Reetu Gupta
in every episode
I'll be talking with innovators and trailblazers
who are reimagining our relationship with our planet
earth whether it's a small spark of innovation
or a sweeping shift in how we live and work
we'll explore the stories that give us hope
and the actions making a difference
together we are planting seeds of change
and driving big shifts for a healthier
abundant sustainable future
hello and welcome this is Reetu Gupta
your host I am so excited
to invite our guest today to the podcast
Jeremy Mckane he is the CEO of Ocean Currency Network
he's working at the cutting edge of marine conservation
so just glad to have him here
welcome Jeremy
well thanks for having me here
this is exciting and I'm
I'm looking forward to our conversation today
yeah awesome
so yeah just to
you know we've talked a little bit
one of the big large goals that you are looking to hit
or contributing to hit
is protecting 30% of the oceans by 2030
I'm curious and I'm sure my audience is curious too
like how what's your journey
like how did you decide to start Ocean Currency Network
and what's your what's your vision with it
how do we reach 30% protected waters oceans
well I think you opened up with a really great way
to for this discussion I first of all
I won't claim that I'm solely gonna be responsible for
protecting 30% of the world's oceans
I I often say that there is no Superman of the ocean
but there is a Justice League
and I think that all of us working together
you know make that collaborative effort to really
you know make those protections
but yeah I think
you know the ocean currency network kind of created
was created with the general mindset
that the greatest currency that we have
as humans is a healthy ocean
you know
it covers more than 71% of the surface of the planet
it sequesters an enormous amounts of carbon
that would otherwise
go up in the atmosphere and cook us
it regulates the the weather
and it also provides
food for billions and billions of people on the planet
so it's interesting that something so powerful
so amazing
often times is overlooked and given a value of zero
and so
I think what we really just kind of aimed to do is
set out to change that right
you know I'm an artist
and I often
try to get people to see things in a different way
I think that's what art is
art isn't making something beautiful
it's making something you know
shown and seen that otherwise
you probably would have overlooked
and I think in a way this entire concept
for me is an art installation itself
even though it's a business
to get people to realize that
you know wow
you know the ocean provides so much for us
if it wasn't here we'd have to build synthetic systems
that cost trillions and trillions of dollars
to just keep us on life support
and I don't know about you
but I don't wanna be a life support I
I wanna live yeah
I don't I don't want that life
I yeah
we have one planet one
like multiple oceans but like one planet just
which is so unique in many ways
and I I yeah
I wanna live on that planet
and not somewhere underground
in a bunker or something like that
right exactly
so tell us more about you said you're an artist
it's like a big installation for you
how did your you know
as an artist and like
how did that manifest into what you're doing today
well I
you know I mean
I've always loved being in the water
I mean that's really where it started
you know as a kid
I used to go fishing with my grandpa and just
I just loved looking at the horizon
and then as I got older I've always loved swimming
and then I loved being and then I became a scuba diver
like right before I became married
and yeah
I just I just like being underwater and
and I and when you realize that
you know
if aliens were to look down on this planet and say
you know what is this they
they wouldn't say that they're earthlings
they would focus on the fact that
you know there's more life in the oceans
than there is on the surface of the planet
so they probably would look more at them
than they would at us so I
I think to me it's really interesting
and then to realize you know
that that so many people don't see this
that that's really what kind of moved me into art
is to say well
what if what if we could actually
you know
get people to to realize what's there and you know
how amazing and wonderful
you know it is yeah
that is so true like
I think most people like to enjoy the ocean
a day at the beach but you know
I would be honest
like how many of us really think about how much of
of as you said
of the life it supports with the what are they called
the the patterns
which regulate the weather between Europe and here and
and all the sea life etcetera
and I know when we were talking earlier
you were saying you know
there's a number there
that 8% of the oceans are protected
but it's really like less than 3%
8% itself is very low but why
why is there a gap between the 8
and what you think is really protected
well I mean
it would but it would be like me telling you
that there are traffic laws in your town
but there are no police officers
so if there was a red light
would you stop I mean
you might be a good person and say I should stop
I might not want to get hit by the oncoming traffic
but the risk is not there so you know
you might roll through the stop
and a few times that you roll through the stop
you might just blow through it and say
you know I don't really care anymore
so when we have what we call paper parks
which are marine protected areas
that have no enforcement well
if I can put it so direct
who cares what
what really matters is that
when we have these protected areas
is that you know
we know that there are real
heavy consequences
that happen to people who violate those
those agreements
and it's just like any other business right
you know what is your moat
what wall do you have for your competition
if that wall is you know a stone
then you're gonna walk right over it every single time
so you know
when we say that 2.7% is actually fully protected
it's a really egregious number if we think about it
because we're here
we are on the sixth year of the Ocean Decade
The Ocean Decade's
aim was to protect 30% of the ocean by 2030
in the sixth year almost the seventh year
and we're at 2.7% if I were to tell you that hey
I hired somebody to paint my house
and I wanted 100% of that painted by the weekend
but I came back and the weekend was over
and only 10% or 15% of that house was painted
what do you think I would do to that painter Harrison
exactly exactly
so clearly expecting different results
and doing the same thing is the definition of insanity
this is really the fundamental reason why we exist
and we exist with again
not not the Superman's but the Justice League
everybody comes together to provide something amazing
you know and when you have many hands
it becomes less work
so that that's really the thesis of what we do
and and and while I do look at this like a big
massive art installation you know
our our strategy is really you know
what is that what is that measurement look like
what what would you know
we're in the intelligence business
at the end of the day my job is to is to look at the
the data that exists around the oceans
to fully understand you know
what's at risk what can we do if something goes wrong
who are the people to do it
and and so yeah
so that that's that's where it is but I mean look
I I spent years being an artist documenting the ocean
I would witness people stop
and they would come to the gallery
they would look at something
or they would go through an art installation
they were moved some of them cried when they walked out
I don't know what happened
maybe something great happened
maybe they went and did something and became
you know an actionist
as I like to call it
but one thing that really hit me hard was
I realized that you know
a tear is not a line item on a spreadsheet
and a feeling
a feeling is not a number
and markets they don't run on feelings
and markets
are the very things that we need to have attached to
nature so that we can fund the necessary
Protection of those things
and so
I just became the artist who Learned how to count
because awareness was never gonna get us moving
any money fast enough yeah
that is so true and I know we've talked about like you
when we talked last time
you talked about like nature being on the balance sheet
and also like you know
you talked about there's more just
let's take the word
awareness to action among financial institutes
and people are actually getting behind this idea of
it has to have some financial value
it has to be treated as an asset
can you like
talk more about this concept of nature being on the
on the balance sheet
because it seems like it's a little like new and yeah
interesting at the same time
well this
this is
I have to give credit to my dear friend and colleague
Doctor Ralph Shami I mean this
he's the one that has really
pioneered this entire concept
in my in my humble opinion
I mean I know other people talk about this
but when you wanna talk to somebody
who's really been thorough about this
he's definitely the one but I don't know
the way I I kind of think about this
I think about two different shores
I think on one side you have all the money in the world
you have hedge funds banks
family offices whatever
on the other shore you have nature right
you have a living ocean and
you know for most of history
for the most part
there's hardly a bridge that's between those two shores
right but there have been some things that have changed
right there have been
these things called debt for nature swaps
and those debt for nature swaps
have funded some really great things
but when you eat if you listen to what I just said
debt for nature swaps
are the restructuring of sovereign debt
to invest into nature
we're still not valuing what nature does for us
not saying that they're bad
bad vehicles they're absolutely wonderful vehicles
and some of them are hundreds of millions of dollars
that's the exact kind of movement that we need to see
but I think when we realize what nature does for us
and we think that it's free
it's not
there is a price when we really start to see that
then things start changing right
and so I don't value nature
that's my friend Ralph's job
that's what he's built his entire
you know thesis on
but what we do is
we work together to be able to identify where nature is
and is nature healthy and so we thought gosh
you know
wouldn't it be great if we had a single pane of glass
that could be used by policymakers
investors and scientists that show hey
here are nature based assets
here's what the environment is doing
is it cohesive enough to
to be able to grow and to be extend
so we built
a system that has
a way of bringing all the various sensors and data
that we all have access to
by the way but actually building
you know real machine learning algorithms to understand
not necessarily what they're saying
but sometimes the inference right
it's like you know
when you talk to a friend
and they're telling you something without telling you
that's kind of what nature does right
we know that certain things happen in nature
and with enough life experience
we know that you know
like for instance
so the Hawaiians believe that when the Willy
Willy bush blooms that
that's also the same period of time
when sharks have their pups
so don't go in the water
that doesn't mean you're going to get attacked
but the likelihood is much higher than it
was maybe a few weeks or months prior
so could we take those same types of inference
be able to collect geospatial data
buoys in the water subsea data sounds
you name it
and really put this into kind of a picture where we now
all of a sudden can make you know hard
you know decisions
I like to think about
what we built is kind of like planet earth
but for nature yeah
yeah thank you for sharing that
it is very it's a very interesting concept
and it's also but it's also as you said in that example
it makes sense because I think from that example
what I also took is like
we've lost some of that knowledge
where we could make those connections
and this is
you're taking that knowledge and making it like okay
can we create a standard that knowledge plus others
and a standard so people can again
try to put a value on nature right
I mean I I
I yeah yeah
no you're right
I mean I I
I've I look at it and say look
we we just built the eyes to measure it
and my dear friend Ralph Schumi
and his colleagues have built the math that prices it
so I think it's a beautiful collaboration
and you know
I'm actually one of his biggest fans
I I'm 100% believe in what he's put together and
and I think that you know
again and not to go crazy
with ocean you know quotes but you know
an old friend of mine used to always say
a rising tide floats all boats
and I think all of us working together
towards these types of common initiatives
realizing what we're really good at
and highlighting our own strengths
but then you know bridging out our hands to
to really have a united effort
that's what's gonna make
all the difference in the world
hundred percent yeah you've talked about like you know
there's no superhero there's a Justice League
and you mentioned a few of the partners
or experts that you're working with
like who else is in in this league
are there any like who like what kind of organizations
like who's under the tent
yeah I mean it's a good question you know
it's interesting sometimes you don't always know
you know who's who's there
because sometimes people are
we're all used to just doing the thing doing the job
but but I you know
I I
I do travel quite a bit to really understand
what people are doing and
and see not from a standpoint of like
in the old days
you would probably look at something say
I need to know what my competitive analysis is right
but now it looks at
what is my collaborative analysis look like
you know what are the people doing
even if it overlaps with what I do
do they do it better okay
great can I then focus
on the thing that I'm really good at
and bring them in on what I'm working on
so that that group of individuals is expanding
you know
I think Ralph always sticks out in my mind just because
you know the the one thing that we
we we just didn't have a price for nature well
of course if Ralph was here
he probably would say and I'm you know
I'm laughing because he's he'd be like yes
I am gonna say that
is that we have put a price on nature
and it's zero
and I remember a good friend of mine or negative yeah
but I remember a good friend of mine
we were one of my most favorite places to travel to
is this little island called Haggerston Island
and it's in far north Queensland
Australia and it's in the middle of nowhere
and I remember being there with a good friend of mine
and here we are having a you know
grand old time
and the best food that you could possibly imagine
and we would catch
only what we were going to eat for that day
and that was it we didn't we you know
if we were done eating for the day
we didn't catch any more fish
it was just a very beautiful holistic experience
that's the only way you're gonna eat by the way
because it's so far from anything
there's no possible way of actually getting any food
to you Doordash
does not deliver there
but what was really interesting is that he looks at me
and you could see
he was just having the best food he's ever had
and he says to me goes just nothing
like floating on top of a free grocery store
and that mine stuck with me
I thought but it's it is it free
it's not free right
if we think that something's for free
and that it has no value
then we're gonna treat it exactly as such and so
you know
and and if something that there's an overabundance of
you know
if I if I could just get a new car whenever I wanted to
I could just throw it away like a plastic cup
then I wouldn't treat my car very nicely would I
I'd bump into things I'd probably not be as careful
parallel parking as I am now
and I think we've done that to nature
we are under the Assumption
that nature will always be there for us
nature will always provide for us
for the first time in human history
we're starting to see that hmm
maybe nature won't always be there for us
so that begs the question
if we're the ones that are the problem
what will we do about it and I think folks like Ralph
Doctor Sylvia Earl you know
Peter Thompson is the special envoy at the UN
at the oceans like
there are a group of people all around the
world that are actively
trying to solve various elements of this problem
and that's why I always go back to the Justice League
right as long as we do it in lockstep
then I think we'll be successful yeah
I really
I really like that and appreciate what you just said
that and such said there and the analogy of like
like it's not like the floating free grocery is like
yeah it really hits home because we have treated
we have treated nature like that
and but also it came to my mind like
if you go back to basic physics
you know we all Learned in like
I don't know middle school or sometime
every reaction every action has a reaction
but in the case of using nature
we've totally forgotten that
that there's gonna be a reaction
we just act in a certain way
or exploit it in a certain way
I think what I like the idea of when you say
you know we are collaborating
everyone does the best they can oh
they focus on the best thing the their best at
how does that
how does that fit into the current financial systems
where you know
if you you know
wherever whichever part of that financial spectrum
you're raising money or you're in public market
it's all about you and your company
how does have you
have you seen
any shift in how financial institutes look at this
or shifts in thinking yeah
yeah I
I don't look
I don't want to paint a picture like
we're all sitting around a campfire
holding hands singing songs
I mean it's not that kind of collaboration
there is a healthy fear of com
of competition but it's
it's not as cutthroat as you probably would imagine
there are there are the uncool kids that I like
that I can think about
we won't name names and we just put them in the corner
we don't deal with them
but there are some really cool kids that say
hey look
you know what let's all find a way to
to coexist and work together
I think that you know
when we look at the financial markets as a whole there
it seems to me I
I don't know I'm not a financial person
but it seems to me they move very slow
and I think they move very slow for a very good reason
they know what works and if it's working
why fix it but then
there are things that come around
that they might want to adopt
I think
if we pull out carbon credits and biodiversity credits
some of the things that people don't understand
let's just completely remove it
if we look at the health of the ecosystem
you know if you go to an eco resort
it's not gonna be an eco resort
if nature's dead around it
if you go to a sandals resort right
they've got resorts all over the Caribbean
how fun will that be
if those waters are no longer turquoise blue
but brown how fun will it be
when there's no life in the ocean altogether
would you have a reason to go stay at those resorts
to go you know
and I know we're talking strictly tourism
in this example
but it's the one thing that we all understand
love it or hate it
we all want to take a vacation at some point
and maybe
we might think about going someplace beautiful
but what if beautiful didn't exist
this is what we're fighting up against
and so I think it doesn't take a real
smart person to realize that
if these things disappear nature
the forests the oceans
the coral reefs the life's in
in the ocean people aren't
won't have a need to go to Tahiti
they won't have a need to go to Hawaii
they won't have a need to go to Florida
they can just be miserable at home
and that has a massive financial impact
so when we talk about what is the value of the ocean
you know we're talking about all the aspects
the blue economy as a whole
what is tourism you know
all these kinds of
when you think about countries like Jamaica or
or uh oh
Hawaii is actually a really good example
oh Hawaii was largely agrarian for a long part of time
right before the US ever came over there
but now it's largely tourism
what happens when all of that dies
what will happen to the state of Hawaii
same thing with the British Virgin Islands
British Virgin Islands was also agrarian
but there were other
business ventures that they got themselves into
but most of these places will never argue
is the ocean valuable they will all tell you that it is
so how do we get that to change
and this is where Ralph and his work
I know I keep feel like I'm a
I'm a feel like I'm plugging Ralph a lot but
but I I feel like that's where his work comes in
is because for the first time
you know great
we can help you see it with our digital measure
report and verify tools
but having a financial mechanism
to be able to evaluate it is very special
yes and really to see what it looks like year over year
and there's been some phenomenal wins
you know over
over the last several years and
and of course
there's also been some really horrible places that have
really taken its toll
but I would say
one of the greatest wins that I can think of
is a little place called Cabo Pulmo
and about 10 years ago
I was told about this place by none other than Doctor
Sylvia Earl
and she said that they had protected this area of water
in Mexico for 15 years
and on the 15th year she went in scuba dive
that spot and she said Jeremy
it was like the oceans I remember 50 years prior
so what does that tell us
humans are the problem
remove the humans and nature just will has a way
as as what as Ian Malcolm said in Jurassic Park
what did he say was uh
nature finds a way I believe is what the quote was
so then why don't we incentive
incentivize
humans to step aside and let nature find a way
yeah yeah
that is a really good example
I also you I'm digressing a little bit
you know I would love to keep talking about
like more about this topic
but like digressing a little bit
when we had talked last you were doing
I think it was British Virgin Islands or somewhere
you were doing a project as a proof of concept
can you talk a little bit about it like how yeah yeah
yeah
so the British Virgin Islands is a is an amazing place
it's it should be called the Beautiful Virgin Islands
that's probably what the B should stand for
no offense to the crown of course
I think that what's really special about it is
it's got so many islands
and so many real natural places
and it's not a big place
and it's relatively close to the United States
and you know for many years
I had gone there to go to events on Necker Island
and so I slowly was introduced to really a
bunch of different locations around that area
and I thought you know
wouldn't be cool
if we could somehow come up with some strategies of
of how to build a nature based economy
and for me in the beginning
it wasn't necessarily about nature based economy
it was really about what could we observe and tell
to incentivize marine Protection
and that was the beginning
and so we had a number of discussions with
leadership in the British Virgin Islands and
and we said hey
you know what would it
what would it be like
if we worked with the British Virgin Islands
the government like as a partner
and could we create a sandbox where we try concepts
and then expand to the rest of the world
on some of our learnings
and it's just been such a great experience to
to be with them you know
the Premier Natalia Wheatley
the honorable Natalia Wheatley
and honorable Lana Smith has been really just
you know champions uh
in this particular process
and for me it really warms my heart right
because you know
you see a united government
with people who really care about the environment
that want to do something
it really makes me want to do more in my local town
yeah in my place right
which is what really what we kind of hope for with that
OK gosh
you know if
if we can show the world that nature has value and
and nature can contribute to one's GDP
then my hope is that other countries come and say well
you know we
we happen to have nature in our backyard too
what can we do and all of a sudden
we've completely shifted the narrative
remember when I said earlier
that we priced nature at zero
now we've also shown them that it has a value
and it maybe not necessarily just a financial value
but an intrinsic value right
one that that keeps us alive
my favorite question people ask me is they say well
why should I care about the ocean
and I just answer it with a
with a Socratic method and I say why
why should you care about breathing
you know it it's
it's literally the same thing
I mean it's providing us
you know the ability to
to sustain life here on this planet
so we we've
we've uh
we found a way to kind of really uh
share the story of of how wonderful the ocean is
I mean
I started with art to get you emotionally connected
but then you know
that artwork always fell short of the actual doing
right and now I feel like
and now I can show you with numbers and data
what the ocean is doing now
it's just a matter of
how will you act around that data
and that's not necessarily my job
my job is again
you know to
to show you something that you haven't seen
to pull it into your prefrontal cortex right
but I I believe that it's a start
it's a start of of something that could potentially
you know motivate and and excite other countries yeah
thank you for sharing that I you know
I could keep asking you questions
but I also wanna ask you is there anything
that you are currently very passionate
like obviously this but anything that you wanna
you wanna share that we haven't talked about yeah
I mean I think for the most part
I'm most
excited about the way people are coming together lately
you know it was I don't know
maybe eight years ago or so
when we first started bringing people to Necker Island
which is also in the British Virgin Islands
and the reason why I wanted to do something on Necker
Island
I've been going to this island I mentioned earlier
Haggerson Island we always had a great time
but I always was a real fan
of what Richard Branson did
and I remember
hearing a story about how Virgin Galactic got started
they were all on the hammocks
looking up at the stars one night and saying
you know
I wonder if we'll get to go to space in our lifetime
and you know
the right people just happened to be
on the island at the time
and here we are I'd like to think about
what does it look like
when you have the right people coming together
what does it look like when
you know someone thinks of others greater than oneself
and
you know it's funny I
it's taking me quite a long time to really quantify
the thing that makes me most excited
but I would say that now over the years
I've been really blessed to
to be in presence of some individuals who
quite literally fit that description
sure no doubt
they're working on amazing projects
and they're very excited about them
but we have had some really amazing humans
who have said look
you know I'm working on this great project
but more importantly what can I do to help you
and imagine if all of a sudden
you have a room of 100 people
that have that same mindset
now imagine 1,000 people 10,000
100,000 how does that change things
changes it on an exponential
on almost unimaginable level
right
and this is always kind of like said
well this is a side effect
this kind of community that's come around
ocean Protection that I've been a part of
I've always said
it's a side effect of what we do at OCN
I'm not sure that's true anymore
I I
I you know
we've had you know
I think
upwards of 100 people at one time at a Necker event
and I mean I remember the first time we did one
Richard had come up to me and asked me
how I got so many people there
from different walks of life
and I remember thinking to myself
this is a really good opportunity to explain
to give Richard Branson some advice
and I didn't have any good advice
I just basically said I don't know Richard
I'm a weirdo and all these people are pretty weird too
and somehow that's just all worked out
you know that's literally what I said to him
and I thought gosh
I really probably could have refined that and been more
you know you know
more like you know
Obama and having like this really
you know good
you know one liner
I failed miserably at that
but I I
I I would just
you know that's a long answer to your question
but I'm really amazed at the group of people who have
stuck around me personally
to help me I would not have been here or doing anything
and it has not been easy
sometimes I feel like I'm swimming up a waterfall
but there's a lot of people that are constantly around
trying to help and
and so the question I you know
the thing that makes
that gets me jumping out of bed is like
I'm always thinking about those humans
and how I can help you know
share their stories you know
cause I know that they're out there trying to
want to help me so
there will be some things that will
most likely announce here in the next few months
of how we're gonna kind of re
engage some of those
that ocean community back together
and I think that it needs to be done in a way where
you know people can come together and see projects
like what we're doing in the BVI
and inside of other other countries and say hey
you know what you're in a country that's a
what they call a small island developing state
which I do not like that term at all
make put that on the record
these are large ocean states
and you know if you have an idea
and you're wanting to do something amazing
then I want to be able to help get that voice heard
I want to be able to
to figure out how to take that idea
and even if it's not very well thought out
and it's not going to work
but what if you just needed to be around some people
that could help make elements of what you're coming
wanting to do work
that's the thing that that I think keeps me going
I think without that this just becomes a project
and the ocean is anything but a project right yeah
thank you for sharing I
I think like
the thing that hit me or resonated most with me is like
you were talking almost like
of a cultural change of mind shift
where people are coming together
they're excited to build something
but they're coming together to say how can I help you
how can I improve this how can I make this better
and I can see that happening with like the hundred
1,000 people you had I think hopefully
there are other communities who are like
my hope would be they would
there are other communities which are coming together
and we get creating these centers of coherence
so then hopefully everyone will like start
no absolutely
you know I mean
I always I always
I mean I say this a lot because I really mean it
but I one of my favorite uh
scientist was Doctor Carl Sagan
and when Voyager was leaving our solar system
he had asked NASA could you turn it around
and turn the cameras on for just one last time
and we took a selfie
I took a selfie of earth as it was leaving
as Voyager 1 was leaving the
the solar system
and what was interesting about that was that
on the tapestry of the cosmos
there was this little pixel
this pale blue dot but inside of his pale blue dot
the one thing that always has stuck with me
is that he said you know
for centuries we have spilled blood
and fought to be momentary masters
of a fraction of a dot
and I think about that phrase a lot
because
the reason why we're in the trouble that we are
is that many of us
sometimes even in the ocean space or the climate space
but all over the world many of us are still
fighting to be a master of the fraction
yeah and if we can fight for the whole
that's right if we can fight for the whole
then I think we will be in a much different place
I love that I love that
I'm gonna take that as your one word
fight for the whole
and not your little dot that you're standing on
that's correct well
I have enjoyed this conversation so much
thank you for being on the podcast
and thank you for the audience to to listening to us
yeah I just my honor
I'm here I'm happy to hang out with you
anytime you call me I'll be there thank you