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Our podcast features special guests and leaders discussing the many projects, partnerships, and innovations driving hydrogen adoption — starting in the Edmonton Metro Region, and expanding outward to Alberta, Canada, and the World.
Edmonton Region Hydrogen HUB is a collaborative initiative dedicated to advancing a thriving hydrogen economy in the Edmonton Region and beyond. Bringing together municipalities, industry, and associations, the HUB focuses on building a robust hydrogen value chain through collaboration, system integration, and policy advocacy. Leveraging the region’s world-class hydrogen production facilities and strategic infrastructure, the HUB drives innovation, promotes decarbonization, and stimulates economic growth, positioning the Edmonton region as a global leader in sustainable hydrogen development.
Welcome to the hydrogen two point o podcast where Alberta's energy story evolves. Join us as we explore what's changed, what's working, and what's next from Edmonton to beyond. Here's your host, Kessia Akopecke.
Kessia:Welcome to hydrogen two point o. Our latest episode is regulation meets rollout, an early engagement checklist to align on the rules, derisk the build, and avoid surprises, and earn public trust. So in this episode, we're going to look at, everything from hydrogen pilots to commercial deployment and how it's not just about technology, it's about the trust, safety, and coordination. With me on this episode is Sidney Manning, provincial administrator, plumbing and gas with the Alberta Municipal Affairs, and Jared Sayers, president and CEO of Azolla Hydrogen. Thank you so much for joining us.
Kessia:How are you doing today?
Sidney:Good. Thank you for having us.
Jared:Yeah. I'm excited to be here, so thank you very much.
Kessia:Awesome. Yeah. Thank you so much. So, I think the first time I met both of you was actually earlier in the month at Alberta Hydrogen Day. So that was nice.
Kessia:It's nice to be reacquainted with both of you and, also have you speak at that as well. So thank you so much for coming. I think just first off, I'd like to start by, you know, like I've introduced you. I've told everybody who you are in your titles, but I think it's probably best coming from you guys if you tell us a little bit about yourself. So, Sydney, I'd like to start with you if you can tell me a little bit about your background and the projects that are important to you.
Sidney:Thank you very much. I've been in the mechanical industry for a little more than forty years, and that adds some date to me. But in my current role, I participate as the administrator for plumbing and gas with municipal affairs. I'm appointed in that role. And so I sit as a senior regulator for the discipline within the province of Alberta.
Sidney:But I also participate across Canada through various organizations that identify regulatory processes as well as code and standard development. And I've also have a past with the Standards Council of Canada and MIRR committees participating in Europe with standard development for hydrogen fuel and vehicles as well. So all of this has and that plumbing and gas background brings me to a situation where I've been actively engaged for almost fifteen years in the hydrogen field. And so as we looked at what was happening internationally and now coming into Alberta, I've been in conversations with conversions of vehicles, fueling stations, blending, as well as a 100% hydrogen applications. So I'm glad to be here, particularly whenever we can talk about the regulations and how do we sit around the table and make sure we can establish minimum requirements for safety and have everybody there to be able to support the industry and move forward.
Kessia:Thanks Sydney. And Jared, tell me a little bit about you.
Jared:Yeah. Thanks. I was born into the oil and gas industry, and I've been working it since I was probably 16 years old. So super excited to share that with everybody. And, you know, my my oil and gas experience has been everything from pipelines to plant operations.
Jared:And, you know, that we had a I had a former company where we did a lot of work on different applications and dealt with hydrogen induced cracking on pipelines and and metals. And so that's led me to Azola Hydrogen, where we're building infrastructure and we're building hydrogen fueling technologies, and we're building fueling stations for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. So super excited to be able to, you know, share that knowledge and and be able to, I guess, work on some of that experience and develop some of that today and and continue on with that.
Kessia:Jared, the Azola Hydrogen Station on the South Side Of Edmonton, that's yours at the city of Edmonton. Correct?
Jared:Yeah. The Ellerslie site, sits on the City Of Edmonton with the Fleet Den Facility Maintenance Building, and, we colocate the production compression storage and dispensing of hydrogen for fuel cell vehicles.
Kessia:Awesome. Yeah. I got a chance to go to the launcher ribbon cutting for it back earlier in the year, and it was really nice. It looked very professional and made you feel like like it's kinda capable of everything. So that was really exciting to have that come into the Edmonton region.
Kessia:You have a couple of stations because I know Azola operates in California and in Alberta. So where are all the stations in that are as well as running?
Jared:Yeah. So currently, we'll have by the 2026, we'll have three stations operating. So we'll have two going in to the city of Edmonton, and we'll have one with the city of Winnipeg, which will do 450 kilograms and support about 10 fuel cell buses for the city of Winnipeg. And that'll start up probably later this year, early next year. And then halfway through the next year or a little bit earlier, we'll have a second station at in Edmonton.
Jared:So yeah. Besides at Ellerslie. So and then you're right. We are set up to do business in California right now, and we're just waiting on that to see what develops down there. And as as you're gonna appreciate, there's been a lot of changes in that.
Jared:But, yeah, we'll see what happens in California next. So
Kessia:Yeah. And California, I guess, is pretty known for being very progressive in their green green energy and innovations in that sense. So I am curious to, I guess, touch a little bit about the differences between that. But first, maybe going back to Sydney, when we're looking on the industrial side and looking at regulations and processes for these big kinds of projects, do you notice any kind of pressure that makes attempting to, I guess, move fast before, understanding the local codes and permitings?
Sidney:Well, first off, the differences between industrial and commercial and residential actually start to become very small when we look at how we regulate it. And so it's no different than with high pressure and low pressure or cryogenic applications. So it's really about how do we keep up with the momentum of the industry? So some of the recent excitement with hydrogen is about how do we go further? How do we get the next domino over?
Sidney:And that can be sometimes, you know, which comes first, the chicken or the egg? Do we have more vehicles first or do we have more fueling stations first? And it's the same types of question within residential and commercial applications. What comes first with that? And that creates this momentum and excitement, and there can be different ways of identifying that.
Sidney:I think I've seen how this is going to be a benefit if we can get out ahead of this. And so there's that sense of urgency that comes with that. How do we develop the ability to participate, compete, etcetera, within the industry? And one of the challenges is that are you ready? And so from a regulatory perspective, this is going to come back again and again, a different conversations, not necessarily today, but it may come up again today, is everybody at the table?
Sidney:If we're moving stuff, well, where's transportation? If we're crossing property lines, where's energy? And where's those different regulators? And once we get into a single property application, who's doing production and storage and handling? And we have all of these stakeholders that need to be at the table.
Sidney:And I see Jared smiling because he can remember these conversations because hopefully I spoke the same way to him when we were first introduced to make sure who's at the table that in order to move forward, we need to have all of our stakeholders, all of our partners in there, and some are from a regulatory capacity and some are from others, but making sure we have everybody around the table gives us the best opportunity to establish a reasonable timeline because many of these partners have very prescriptive requirements. And so as we identify those, the choices that come from an owner's perspective still need to be respected and that most of our legislation is enabling. So it says, if you wanna do this, we need to establish out the requirements that are going to maintain a minimum level of safety. And so rather than going too far into the weeds with that, what I really wanted to share today is that as you rush forward, make sure everybody comes along with you. We can handle different speeds for development, but only if all of the stakeholders that are necessary are at the same level of participation or sophistication because it's, you know, are we documented properly?
Sidney:Are we engineered properly? Do we have the ability to manage other requirements? And we'll get into those as the conversation goes on.
Kessia:Jared, did you have any experience with that from I can see you nodding.
Jared:Yeah. I think, you know, Ellerslie is a prime example of what Sydney's talking about. And I think, unfortunately for us, you know, we checked a lot of those boxes of production compression and storage, and we brought a lot of those things that Sydney's talking about, you know, to the table and we could you know, it's a prime example of how, you know, that's a highly engineered product that we put together from all of our different partners from production, like with StarTek manufacturing and, you know, Bennett Compare Dispensers and our compressor, Newman and Essers, and all those partners brought our technology and our engineering packages together to to illustrate, you know, like, what we've done and and to check off a lot of the boxes that Sydney is is referring to. And I think, you know, we we did work together early with the Alberta Boiler Safety Association and Sydney and his team and the city of Edmonton and gas permitting to try and pull all those permits together and to be able to illustrate and get everybody on the same page. So I think what Sydney's talking about is really, you know, essential to be able to do.
Jared:You know, I think there'll always be schedule pressure, but I think people confuse schedule pressures and, you know, moving fast. I think, you know, you have to be able to and having some years of experience building equipment, you know, these are just, you know, things that are common and and we all need to bring to the table, you know, because there is existing standards and codes. We just need to make sure that we're applying them correctly and we're using sound engineering principles, and we can back up why we're using the particular piece of equipment and how it's being used and to ensure that, you know, we are doing things in the safest, most efficient way possible. And I think at the end of the day, that's what we're trying to all do. And, you know, I think those those are the two things that drive Azola Hydrogen are safety and quality.
Kessia:So looking at this project and especially from a regulatory, perspective, this project or any of your other projects, what's something that really stands out that you feel made that process such a success for you?
Jared:Yeah. I think the communication, like, getting everybody on the same page. You know, I we always we did a lot of walk throughs. We had a lot of people come and see the equipment and being able to actually see it and walk through it and understand how it functions. And then, you know, how we mitigate these risks, you know, like we can only de risk so much.
Jared:And then how are we mitigating the rest of that risk? And and what procedures and and policies are we putting in place to ensure that the proper use and application and operation of that equipment is in place? So I think it really it comes down to that communication and and the people. Right? I think, you know and that's just a good example of how how that team executed on that project to put the right people in place, and we communicated and and all kind of things.
Jared:All those stakeholders came together and and, you know, worked together to kinda get over those challenges. Because no matter what, you're always gonna have those challenges, and you're always gonna have a few rushes. And and we appreciate Sydney and his team because we always put those on them a little bit too as well. So yeah. But when you have that relationship and you have you start to build that trust and and the understanding that, you know, we are trying to do things in the safest, most efficient way possible, then you start to, you know, you know, work together a little bit more efficiently and and understand how everybody's got a role to play in this.
Jared:And sometimes, you know, we we have challenges and we have to meet in the middle or find common ground and and you fall back on those relationships to make those things happen.
Kessia:Denny, do have anything you wanna chime in with on this one?
Sidney:I certainly do with that to build on what Jared's talking about was is that the more we were able to establish jurisdictional boundaries, to be able to identify this belongs to energy and this belongs to the pressure equipment regulator, and at this point it transitions into a fuel and that needs to be regulated by the local authority having jurisdiction. Those opportunities to identify that and have everybody at the table led us to some gaps and overlap discussions. We've got legislation where we don't wanna overlaps. We don't need two regulators standing looking at the same valve and creating an unnecessary regulatory process. But at the same token, with new technology, it's really critical to understand that we have gaps that we needed to address.
Sidney:And with Jared and his team, we were able to see that the codes could go to here and that's our best fit. And then the standards could go to there. That's also a great fit within our legislation. But once we get into a spot where there's really no code or there's really no standard that addresses this specific portion of the system, we were able to look at how could we go to North American documents and international documents? Where could we give the guidance to give us that ability to support the intent of the legislation and even bring in the role of the professional of engine and the professional of record.
Sidney:How could that engineer be able to give us the confidence that we've addressed safety while considering operational requirements for which we don't have that pre designed set of requirements. And this is always integral with new technologies. We've seen this in different aspects of the industry for liquefied natural gas and even some compressed natural gas applications where we've established some requirements. And although we're talking heavily about a fueling station, this is no different than for converting a vehicle to hydrogen or looking at developing a 100% hydrogen communities and even blended hydrogen applications. We still have the same process and the same stakeholders, even though they have varying roles.
Sidney:And, you know, in these applications, we're looking at how can we create a documented process to be able to track what's actually happening and make sure that we have all the players at that table and they're all feeling satisfied. So I really think that this was successful because we were able to blend that and recognize that many of us had never been here before. So in doing that for the first of its kind, there tends to be some reluctance from many, excuse me, many of the stakeholders. And it's about making sure we bring everybody up to that same level of confidence so that we were able to support moving forward.
Kessia:I like that you said that many of us haven't been here before because it's hydrogen. It's an emerging economy. A lot of the technology is really new, although much of it also kind of stems off of traditional oil and gas and energy infrastructure and technology as well. Right? It didn't start from nowhere.
Kessia:But with that, would as new technologies evolve and innovation continues and there's already regulations in place, would those regulations adapt with the industry down the road or would new technology providers have to fit into it?
Sidney:There's a bit of both of that. So regulation ideally would evolve at the same time to harmonize with it so that we had the right language in the regulation and the right reference standards and codes to be able to support this. There's often challenges with that where the legislation can be cumbersome and does has some challenges when keeping up. One of the challenges that we're really facing now is the availability of certification standards in the North American community. So when we look at things like furnaces and hot water tanks, you can't go out and buy a hydrogen furnace or a hot water tank.
Sidney:It's a really complex process to satisfy the legislation, and it's no different with the fueling station that because we've got such young codes and standards that are challenged to grow to the industry, we're looking at referencing of references. And so we end up with a series of documentation that we may or may not have any experience with. So as we look to not degrading requirements, but as we look further abroad to identify guidance, we've got legislation that's really clear. If you have a Canadian code and standard, here's how you go from A to B to C. If you do not have that, then we've got a much more complex process.
Sidney:So to get back to your original comment that our regulations keeping up with this Well, and then we also have to expand that there are many ministries involved and many different regulations. So as regulations are being considered regarding how do we cost recovery within the industry? How do we manage safety with installations? So all of these regulations are being looked at in real time as we speak. So as we see one regulation advance, there's an opportunity for others to consider or to come up.
Sidney:And we're also looking at a combination between provincial legislation and federal legislation. Just today, the government of Canada sent out an opportunity to be able to weigh in on metering of hydrogen applications and also to about converting of vehicles. In Alberta, we've created a process for how you can permit a conversion shop and begin the conversion of vehicles to hydrogen. And so we developed that by using the same discussion we've had, You know, Canadian standards, North American standards, the role of the engineer, who's providing training, and all of those requirements. And we established a model.
Sidney:And now from the federal guidance, we've request to participate with consultation where they're saying, we're gonna set a whole new bunch of requirements for vehicles. And this may play better into OEM discussions than it does for us with converting vehicles at a provincial level, but these things are happening real time. So as federal legislation changes, that's going to impact provincial legislation, and it often impacts the timeline and the ability to keep up with the hydrogen discussion. So we gotta continue to work with enabling those that are moving the technology forward and establishing new requirements that have evidence of safety provided within them while we encourage the growth within legislation to be able to support that.
Kessia:Jared, I see you nodding if you have thoughts.
Jared:Yes. And this, you know, has some great comments on that. And I I think, you know, with all these regulations as they adapt and and develop, you know, I think we as as a provider have a responsibility too to help, you know, guide and and share some of our our field experience and real world knowledge to ensure that some of these things we're putting in place are getting better, like, on a on a continuous improvement process. We're not just putting things in place to, you know, check a box or something like that. It's actually adding value and and creating, you know, a safer system.
Jared:So, you know, I think it's gonna be that blend of of those two things that as we develop and continually move forward is, you know, looking back and understanding what's what's real and what's what's a field application and and how do we make that better, going forward?
Kessia:So Perfect. So this kinda leads me to my next thought, I guess. We're talking a little bit about, learnings from abroad as far as projects, as far as regulations and creating policies. What are some and, Jared, maybe you can answer this one first, actually. What are some of the key distinctions that you've might have noticed between Alberta, California, anywhere else that you've done projects, that people might need to be aware of or might be able to learn from if they're maybe working here in Alberta?
Jared:Yeah. I think, you know, Alberta, you know, I said this before at some of the hydrogen advances that Zola was started with the intention to take advantage of the engineering talent pool that Alberta has and develop that. And, you know, I think that's a key component because, you know, I think when we look at these things that were and these projects we're putting together, that experience really pays off. And, you know, I think Alberta has an innate ability to have that Alberta advantage. We just need to be able to capitalize on that.
Jared:And I think, you know, we have some of the highest standards when it comes to manufacturing and welding and and all of those components. And I think, you know, it's a lot easier that's why it's a lot easier for us to build the equipment in Alberta and take it to California than vice versa. So, you know, I think California has, you know, a lot of advantages that they move and they make it happen, and they've had to because of space and different things like that. And and the sheer population there, you know, the California is the fourth largest economy in the world. So they're a big they're a big animal when you talk about it when from a manufacturing standpoint and and operations and, you know, even Los Angeles.
Jared:I was just there last week, and, you know, there's 5,000 kind of operating wells within the city of Los Angeles. And so there'll be a gas well in the in the back parking lot of a of a store or convenience store and things like that, and there'll be service rigs working around there. So they've had to get very tight with space. And where we have the advantage of, you know, that won't happen in Alberta because of the setbacks and different things like that. So I think every area has its unique jurisdictions and and challenges, and I think those are some of the things you have to take into consideration when looking at doing projects and understand that environment that you're working in.
Kessia:Sidney, do you have thoughts? Yes. I was hoping you would.
Sidney:Continue to participate. And that is is that as we look across Canada, there are a number of different models that need to be considered. We have a privatized model where the local authorities in each municipality have opportunity to be able to administer these requirements. It's very different than having a one stop shop with TSASK in Saskatchewan or perhaps TSSA in Ontario. So those are different models, but it's also the same as soon as you look across the border to the south, the differences between federal, state, county, even city requirements that create a number of challenges when considering who is the authority having jurisdiction.
Sidney:I think we're fortunate in Alberta because we've got really good support throughout government down with the 5,000 vehicle challenge and other items that are seeing that if the legislation is enabling, we're here to support that discussion. So even though we may actually have a fairly complex process in Alberta because of the privatized model and the differences between pressure equipment and the energy regulator and the local authority having jurisdiction, there seems to be a good understanding because we've all been working with hydrogen for a long time. We've got hydrogen that's been integral to the oil and gas industry throughout my whole career. And so with that expertise and experience also comes the ability within government and administration to be able to recognize that hydrogen's been part of our life as have been hydrocarbons and etcetera. So as we move forward with that, there's going to be challenges.
Sidney:So for Jared and his team and others in the industry, every time you cross a border, you're gonna have to ask that same question again. Who's at that table and who are the right partners to have here? Because we've been talking heavily today about those stakeholders in Alberta and that they may be very similar in every other jurisdiction, but some of them are gonna be much more obvious and have a very broad footprint to be able to talk about how they can or cannot regulate an activity that falls under specific acts and legislation.
Kessia:Thank you so much. Yeah. So I'll leave you with this last question or or more of a, I guess, a thought. When we're looking at projects today and deployment of this kinds of technology into the real world and we're looking at the different mindsets and perspectives that are happening right now, What's one mindset or perspective that you wish industry would be able to take on as of today or tomorrow moving into any project?
Jared:Yeah. You know, I think it's always, you know, it's unfortunate with hydrogen. We've had a lot of hype and a lot of overpromises and under delivering. And I think, you know, if there's one thing I'd want people to be is be realistic and and be pragmatic and do more and talk less.
Kessia:But communication is still key.
Jared:I I often always say we should do more faster. But but, yeah, I think, it is getting out there, getting these projects done and working at it and improving the systems and moving it forward. But yeah, please don't over promise and under deliver.
Sidney:And I'm kind of stuck as a point counter point by suggesting that we need to talk about this all the time. So while you're pushing forward, Jared, fully support that, but keep talking about it in as best we are able, because what I would suggest in the idea of this is to make sure all of your stakeholders understand they don't have to say no. So in every one of these conversations, there's an opportunity for somebody to say, no, this is hard. This doesn't fit within our legislation. I make this interpretation and I'm out.
Sidney:As soon as we have somebody that says no, oh, it makes this whole industry hard. And so I continue to talk about enabling legislation to be able to encourage that there is ways we can do this. There is ways we can get to here. How do we document it? How do we engineer it?
Sidney:How do we satisfy all of these various requirements? And although that in itself is an incredibly difficult feat, I really want to emphasize that all of the stakeholders at the table need to be able to bring the opportunity to say yes. Thanks for that. And Jared, I see there's
Jared:a Yeah, rebuttal Cindy's got a great point. And my comment wasn't really around regulations and things like that. So it was really around, you know, the efforts and things like that. You know, I think when it comes to the engineering and the you're right. Sydney's got a great point.
Jared:People think, like, just because they gotta know, they said it's hard. No. That's just you have to hit. You know, there's a there's a hurdle that you have to hit. And those are the things that I think, unfortunately, I I take those for granted, that everybody has those same high standards.
Jared:And I think in industry, you know, Sydney points out that people come to the table with something that's not at the at the level it should be. And, you know, they they blame industry and they blame codes and standards. And it's really not you know, it's their own fault. So when I say do more, they have to do more engineering and do more knowledge and investigation and understanding what they're doing and what they're talking about and understands the codes and regulations that you need to meet or exceed. And, you know, I think with Ellerslie, there's a lot of examples I could show you where we did things where whether, you know, they fell between those lines where we did our own testing.
Jared:You know, some of the tubing testing we brought in, and we tested tubing up to 30,000 PSI, and we tested the installer as well. So we tested the, you know, the operations and the implementation of it. And so that gives us a lot of that confidence. And, you know, I think the more that everybody understands and could could see, like, I wish everybody could actually see all the background work that went into all those things and all those conversations that we had with Sydney's group and all the teams and the stakeholders. Because if we could do it, you know, a shrunk down version and, you know, to illustrate to people that it would be great to to help industry.
Kessia:I think people would definitely love to see that.
Sidney:Well, there was that opportunity that information was being brought from outside of Canada and outside of Alberta with the expectation that this looks like good information. This looks like this should meet all the requirements, but it needed to be tested, much as Jared said, against that provincial requirement. What are the abilities of the regulator to consider equivalencies or establish that minimum requirement based on prescriptive provincial legislation. So code standards, all of those kinds of things, and that that needs to be a growth so that representing the owners and designers, engineers, builders, and installers, that team has to bring that sophistication to be able to work with the regulator and provide evidence that they can interpret.
Kessia:Well, I think this concludes our episode for today. We've covered a lot of ground. For anybody listening, we can put in Sydney and Jared's information if you do wanna get in touch with them. Thank you, Sydney, and thank you, Jared, so much for joining us today on our latest episode of Hydrogen two point o. And I hope to see you both soon at some sort of event in the Edmonton region or in the office here.
Kessia:So, yeah, looking forward to what you're doing next as well.
Jared:Sounds great. Thanks for
Sidney:having us.
Jared:Thanks, Cindy. Thank you.
Kessia:That's it for today's episode of Hydrogen two point o. If you are looking to learn more about the Edmonton region's hydrogen economy, learn more about the Edmonton region hydrogen hub, or get in touch with us, you can visit hydrogen.ca or send us an email at hello@hydrogen.ca. Also, feel free to follow us on LinkedIn, the Edmonton Region Hydrogen Hub, to stay up to date on all the news and all the activities happening in our hydrogen economy.