Note: This transcript was exported from the video version of this episode, and it has not been copyedited
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:25:08
Isabelle Clement
The message it is, is about, ensuring that disabled people are included in the conversation about mobility, justice and and concentrating on increasing, as you said, choice, mobility choice for those who are currently the most excluded. And if we if we remove barriers to mobility to those who would currently the most excluded, then we improve the situation for everyone else.
00:00:25:10 - 00:00:47:19
John Simmerman
Hey everyone, welcome to the Active Towns channel. My name is John Simmerman and that is Isabelle Clément, director of the UK charity wheels for wellbeing. We're going to be talking about their, initiatives and campaigns to try to remove barriers to get everybody out on various forms of bikes and cycles. I am so looking forward to sharing this episode with you.
00:00:47:20 - 00:01:13:18
John Simmerman
But before we do that, I just want to say thank you so much for tuning in. I really do appreciate it. And if you're enjoying this content here on the Active Towns Channel, please consider supporting my efforts by becoming an Active Towns Ambassador. It's super easy to do just navigate over to Active towns.org. Click on the support tab at the top of the web page, and there's several different options, including becoming a Patreon supporter of patrons to get early and ad free access to all my video content.
00:01:13:20 - 00:01:21:28
John Simmerman
Okay, without further ado, here's Isabelle Clément.
00:01:22:00 - 00:01:26:14
John Simmerman
Isabelle, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast. Welcome.
00:01:26:16 - 00:01:29:02
Isabelle Clement
Thank you very much. Thanks for having me.
00:01:29:04 - 00:01:36:12
John Simmerman
Now, Isabelle, I love giving my guests just an opportunity to introduce themselves. So who the heck is Isabelle?
00:01:36:15 - 00:01:52:01
Isabelle Clement
So I'm Isabelle Clément. I'm the director of a small charity based in London in the UK called Wills for wellbeing and we are the voice of disabled people who cycle or wish to cycle.
00:01:52:04 - 00:02:11:01
John Simmerman
I love that and here's your website. This. I think this is so cool. And you and I had a chance to meet briefly, at Velo city, there in, in Ghent, in, in Belgium recently, last year, last summer and I had to get out the podcast. I had to get you on to be able to chat about this.
00:02:11:03 - 00:02:35:04
John Simmerman
It's one of the things that that I talk about all the time on the active sales channel is we need to be creating environments that are appropriate for all ages and all abilities to be able to have mobility freedom. And so, because there's all these like stereotypical assumptions that, oh, you're building bike lanes, that's just for able bodied people.
00:02:35:04 - 00:02:54:01
John Simmerman
And I'm like, that's insulting, because look, Isabelle. And this entire movement, take us back, rewind a little bit. How did you get involved in this and become so passionate about this topic in this movement?
00:02:54:04 - 00:03:19:17
Isabelle Clement
Yeah. So I'm not somebody who would be who would have originally thought of herself as a as a cyclist at all. I'm a, I'm a disabled person. I was disabled from very tiny childhood. So, Walking's never been a great thing is, it's been kind of useful, to some extent, but it's really been a limiting factor in my mobility.
00:03:19:19 - 00:03:39:14
Isabelle Clement
And I. Well, in fact, my my parents tried me on a, on a bicycle when I was ten as a big kind of reward for the big monster to come. And but what it was, I've got my first bike and we tried it and it didn't work. Couldn't. Couldn't balance, couldn't keep my feet on the pedal. It wasn't going to work.
00:03:39:14 - 00:04:08:09
Isabelle Clement
So we put cycling as the can't do category. Moved on, did other things. But I, I apparently knew I learned that. So supposedly I couldn't cycle, at the age of ten and never thought of it again. I was very, privileged to be able to get a driver's license, and, and my first car as pretty much was like, I got my first car at 20.
00:04:08:12 - 00:04:31:09
Isabelle Clement
And from there on, I was very mobile. But that was with the use of the car and my assumptions, like a lot of disabled people's assumptions. Was that unless I could drive, I couldn't go. So that didn't set me off very well. So being passionately leading a disability and cycling organization, but, this was all in France.
00:04:31:09 - 00:04:56:28
Isabelle Clement
I'm French originally, and I came to the UK in my, early 20s. And then, carried on being a driver, very mobile, very, very. I got involved in the disability sector and the disability movement in the UK, which I found very empowering and got very involved in social care and fighting for disabled people's right to, control their social care.
00:04:57:01 - 00:05:26:04
Isabelle Clement
All very well. And then in the mid 2000, 2005, some a wonderful woman called Janet Pask, who was working for a disability organization I was involved with in south London. She had this what I thought was a crazy idea of, setting up an organization, which could support disabled people into cycling. She was a cyclist.
00:05:26:06 - 00:05:50:27
Isabelle Clement
Not with physical impairments at all. She used to run a service for disabled people and welfare benefits and fire service. And she was helping her clients with, difficulties with accessing services, difficulties with, not having enough money to live on, difficulties with accessing transport, issues with not being able to get the health, support they needed, etc., etc..
00:05:51:00 - 00:06:17:02
Isabelle Clement
And she was a cyclist and she knew that her cycling was very cheap, so didn't need any, long term resourcing could get her places, gave her the independence that she wanted and she needed gave her, gave a boost to her mental health, etc., etc.. And she, she always thought if only my clients could cycle, it wouldn't magic away all their issues.
00:06:17:02 - 00:06:39:02
Isabelle Clement
But actually it would really mitigate some of the issues relating to, the barriers they encounter in life through the disability. And she created this amazing organization called wheels for wellbeing. And I had been involved in voluntary organizations before charities, and I was asked to go on the, on the board. And I thought, well, okay, I can do that, I can help.
00:06:39:04 - 00:07:15:18
Isabelle Clement
But it's only some years later that having just supported her in terms of governance, with this organization, me and a few others, she got it off the ground. She got it going, but I wasn't particularly very closely involved. And I still thought it was a bit of a crazy idea, but why not? And in parallel to that, I was getting on with my life, and I was, I had a child, and he got to his, fourth birthday and we got him a little bike and I just suddenly found myself thinking, well, maybe I'm going to not be able to take him to the park anymore because I used to use my
00:07:15:18 - 00:07:33:04
Isabelle Clement
wheelchair in the park with him. I used to park my wheelchair to boot, take him to the park, and that was all fine. You'd be on my lap or he'd been, you know, walking around, toddling around. And once he was on wheels off, you know, with under his own steam. Exactly. I was thinking that I'm going to use him.
00:07:33:07 - 00:07:51:07
Isabelle Clement
So do I stop taking him to the park or do I find myself equipped with something else that is a bit more all terrain, a bit more kind of, you know, gives the wheelchair up a hilly park or across the grass. No use, no use of time. So of course.
00:07:51:07 - 00:07:57:00
John Simmerman
You know, being involved with the wheels for wellbeing, you're like, oh, wait, I have an idea.
00:07:57:02 - 00:08:24:01
Isabelle Clement
Well, kind of. I wasn't even that convinced. I thought maybe a mobility scooter, you know, an electric thing that older people, sit on. And I wasn't politically thrilled. Anyway, long story short, eventually I came across before having bought anything, I came across what's on screen here. The concept of a of clip on hand cycle. And it's it clips on to a wheelchair to the front of a wheelchair, and the rest is history in a way.
00:08:24:01 - 00:08:48:03
Isabelle Clement
But that was my first encounter with not even at the time, being on roads and being a cyclist, but just going through parks, being a kind of going on walks with my my child or following my child in the park or going on walks with friends suddenly, because actually that was so much more powerful and I had more control, brakes, etc., that you don't really have on a wheelchair.
00:08:48:06 - 00:09:12:00
Isabelle Clement
And eventually, when I actually became the director of Wheels Wellbeing some years later, then thought, no, no, no, this is very silly. Why am I not thinking of this as a cycle? And what it was at the time was that it didn't have power assist. It was just, a front wheel, but it was only my power, which when it's your shoulders, your neck and your arms, rather than your legs and gravity, it's quite a lot more effort.
00:09:12:04 - 00:09:43:06
Isabelle Clement
And I got equipped with this baby on the screen there, which has electric assist. And I took some advice from the wonderful people at wheels for wellbeing about cycling on the road, because even though I could drive, I've never been on a cycle on the road and the rest is history. Really. Then it really got me going and and I've increased my confidence and and and now I've not only run a disability charity, but I am definitely I consider myself as somebody who cycles on a regular basis.
00:09:43:06 - 00:09:45:07
Isabelle Clement
And it's it's wonderful.
00:09:45:09 - 00:10:07:28
John Simmerman
Redefining that term of who we think of when we say the word cyclist. It's redefining what we think about. Tell me this. We'll talk a little bit more about the word that you used earlier, which was barriers. And we'll talk about, several different interpretations of barriers, including, you know, what it takes to for all ages and abilities to comfortably ride on the road.
00:10:08:04 - 00:10:20:29
John Simmerman
But before we do that, I want to just pause and have you, you know, describe for for the audience. How did this make you feel when you finally, like, discovered this?
00:10:21:01 - 00:10:51:00
Isabelle Clement
It's quite incredible. For me. As I say, mobility wasn't so much an issue because I could drive, but driving doesn't make you feel. It doesn't make me feel great. It it get me places, but I'm in this box behind my wheel and I'm not actually actually physically active. And I'm not a sporty person. And I've, I've, I've never found I had until then, never found any physical activity that either didn't injure my, didn't injure me or gave me any pleasure.
00:10:51:00 - 00:11:22:03
Isabelle Clement
It was all it was. It was either physical therapy, you know, a physiotherapy, which is a ball, or I could swim, but you can't swim daily as part of your life. It's actually quite a lot of, of of, things you have to do to get swimming and, and it takes a lot of time. And suddenly having this ability to power my life forwards will undermine steam and just getting pleasure rather than, than pain.
00:11:22:03 - 00:11:49:06
Isabelle Clement
Literally, I was getting endorphins for the first time in my life because I was making an effort and my heart was pumping, my lungs were filling, and, and I was really feeling that wish, that excitement, which when I've spoken to a lot of people who cycle, they kind of forgotten that because they they felt it when they were teeny weeny, teeny teeny child and they, they got this first excitement that suddenly they were independent, that they could go.
00:11:49:08 - 00:12:14:19
Isabelle Clement
I'd never particularly experienced that until my mid-thirties, which is I mean, it's not sad, it's just the reality, but it is such a powerful feeling of actually being physically active and actually and going somewhere and feeling well at the end of it, as opposed to hot and puffy and bothered and in pain, which was my previous experience of, of moving about under nine steam.
00:12:14:21 - 00:12:42:01
Isabelle Clement
So absolutely fantastic feeling, which ever since I've been wanting to make sure that people realize that this is possible. We don't all have to do it. It's not compulsory, but it's an amazing thing. It's a tool for for mobility, for moving around. But also it's an amazing we're feeling well. And also I'm not getting any younger and, disabled people with mobility issues tend to, you know, end up being very, very sedentary.
00:12:42:01 - 00:12:56:15
Isabelle Clement
And but being sedentary is not good for you. And the stark reality is that a lot of us are younger than than the majority. And we need to find those ways, to build into our lives, to be physically active. So that's that's the story.
00:12:56:18 - 00:13:23:07
John Simmerman
And it's inherent in the organization's name, wheels for wellbeing. And you mentioned pleasure several times. And the, the fantastic feeling. So yeah, it's taught it's inherent in the name wheels for wellbeing and the names or the words that used, you know, pleasure and the feel it fantastic feeling. But it's also represented in this photo here of the smile on your face and the smile on your bike too.
00:13:23:10 - 00:13:24:12
Isabelle Clement
That's right.
00:13:24:15 - 00:13:25:23
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah.
00:13:25:23 - 00:13:27:24
John Simmerman
That's that is fantastic.
00:13:27:27 - 00:13:54:11
Isabelle Clement
And and being part of, of the community around me because again, as I say, I was driving for years, but it's only when I started cycling that I actually was making up. Then eye contact with people around me, the people on the, on the, on the footway, the, you know, people crossing the road and and actually, in fact, seeing me move along, puts, puts a smile on people's face.
00:13:54:11 - 00:14:12:15
Isabelle Clement
Generally they go, oh my goodness. Oh wow. What's that? The kids go, mom, I'm not one of them. And I've never said that about my wheelchair, but it's the same wheelchair. But it's turned into a bike, and it's it looks powerful. It looks cool, I like that. Yeah, I want that one. Oh, look at her.
00:14:12:18 - 00:14:35:02
John Simmerman
Look at her. Yeah. And this brings up the question. Well, okay. Well, how does this logistically really work? We saw the image of you, you know, taking the lane in a, in a, in a slower, street. Maybe it's a low traffic neighborhood. I'm not sure, but it's clearly a shared lane. But then here's, you know, the logistics of how you get in and out of buildings.
00:14:35:04 - 00:14:43:14
Isabelle Clement
That's right. Actually, if you move the picture very slightly up, you can see it's actually number ten, dining Downing Street. On this street that's a.
00:14:43:14 - 00:14:45:14
John Simmerman
Famous that's a famous address.
00:14:45:17 - 00:15:08:21
Isabelle Clement
It's that famous address, which is why I'm looking so proud with myself. Are you. This is my current cycle, so it doesn't. I should put a smile back on. It's on. It's battery. That's a that's definitely something that you look out for again. So it's my current model, of keep on home cycle, but whichever one I cycle, I, because it's a very, very expensive piece of kit.
00:15:08:23 - 00:15:32:09
Isabelle Clement
I do not leave it on the street. Particularly not if I'm going to ten Downing Street. But anyway, and, But I wouldn't leave it, outside. So for me to be able to get somewhere, it's not it's no longer that I need a disabled parking space for my car. It's that I need to actually cycle all the way into, my destination, and Downing Street's.
00:15:32:10 - 00:16:00:29
Isabelle Clement
No problem. They will put out a ramp for you, and you can cycle in, and you can cycle back out, and then I had just been to a meeting about, the cycling, the big cycle policy called gear change. This is some years ago on the, Prime Minister Boris Johnson. There was a whole committee of of people trying to work out how to implement gear change, which was a big policy document about increasing the place of cycling in the UK on a big investment program.
00:16:01:01 - 00:16:21:24
Isabelle Clement
So I am part of a new agency called Active Travel England. On the as a non-executive director. And we were, we were discussing the that the program at Downing Street. It's the only one meeting we've had at Downing Street. But I was very, very pleased with myself having cycled in and cycled back out.
00:16:21:27 - 00:16:40:29
John Simmerman
Yeah, yeah. You know, you mentioned Active Travel England, of course. That's a wonderful prominent organization that's part of the government that has been established. Chris is is at the top of that. Correct? Chris Boardman is that in this Parliament?
00:16:40:29 - 00:16:48:03
Isabelle Clement
Is absolutely. He's the, national commissioner for cycling and he is the chair of Active Travel England.
00:16:48:03 - 00:17:27:20
John Simmerman
Fine. Fantastic. Yes. And of course, many people might recognize that name is as a former Olympian, I believe, a gold medal winner. Also two tour de France. Stage winner, maybe a couple times, something like that. But really, this is not to to like, derail the conversation and talk about sports cycling. But the point that that I like to bring up about what Chris is doing is similar to what you're doing, is we're having these discussions at the highest levels of government because we need to start addressing these institutional and systematic challenges that we have.
00:17:27:22 - 00:17:44:08
John Simmerman
And I love the fact that the work that you're doing is like gaining traction and getting attention. And some of that attention has has resulted in like, acknowledgments, you know, for yourself, too, including this.
00:17:44:11 - 00:17:47:18
John Simmerman
I know what happened here.
00:17:47:21 - 00:18:11:08
Isabelle Clement
Yeah. Very proud moment of of being awarded. It's called an B award, which is a member of the British Empire Medal for, in my case, service to charity in my mainly in my involvement with Wales for well-being and, and other other voluntary organizations in the UK. So yes, very proud.
00:18:11:11 - 00:18:28:29
John Simmerman
No. Typically an in B is, you know, awarded and acknowledged with the royal family. But that didn't happen in this case. Why don't you explain, you know, kind of the logistics of that and what resulted later on, after Brexit.
00:18:29:02 - 00:18:49:03
Isabelle Clement
Yes. Oh, well, that's a kind of parallel story. But, at the time, I was I was not a British citizen. I was a French citizen. As I mentioned before, I'm originally French. And being a European, a member of the European Community, the EU, we were we had pretty much the same rights as UK citizens.
00:18:49:06 - 00:19:09:05
Isabelle Clement
Bar the ability to, to vote in general elections once every five years. And therefore, even though I'd lived here for decades, three decades by then, I hadn't actually sought to obtain British citizenship. It was kind of at the back of my mind for a long time. I really ought to do that. My life is here.
00:19:09:08 - 00:19:43:27
Isabelle Clement
Busy week. Actually. I have things to do, and I'd left it every. Every five years. I'd go, oh, I should have done it by now. I really want to vote. And then life would carry on. And then, yes, let's not get too political. But Brexit happened and, the my feeling of, just being quite happy just being a French citizen because it didn't make any difference, suddenly started to feel like I ought to really do this, and, affirm my, nationality as a, as a, as a British citizen.
00:19:43:27 - 00:20:05:15
Isabelle Clement
So I had all the same rights as British citizens, which I kind of had with what was given to us, a settled status, but that didn't quite feel secure enough. And I am now a British citizen. But at the time of the award, I was but not a bi national and therefore, was awarded an honorary and which is absolutely fine.
00:20:05:15 - 00:20:26:00
Isabelle Clement
It's the same thing, really, but it was a slightly different process, and it wasn't awarded by the the Queen, although also a member of the royal family at the time, it was the, Minister for Active Travel or the Department of Transport who awarded it to me, which in a way was totally meaningful anyway, so quite appropriate to.
00:20:26:03 - 00:20:57:01
John Simmerman
Fantastic. So I want to, like, dive into a little bit, of what we were talking about in terms of the barriers and the perceived barriers that, are out there. You know, you addressed one of the perceived barriers, which is just this, this assumption in this belief that, that it's really not for you. And that's literally like the tag line, that exists on the wellbeing for or the wheels for wellbeing website.
00:20:57:01 - 00:21:27:07
John Simmerman
You it's like, think you can't can't cycle. Think again. We're going to help remove some of these barriers. And there are many barriers. Talk a little bit about not only the perception. You know the barriers, the barriers within our own minds collectively, but also like the real barriers, the physical barriers that are out there that are preventing not only people who have mobility challenges or other types of disabilities, but also.
00:21:27:07 - 00:21:27:16
Isabelle Clement
Just.
00:21:27:20 - 00:21:39:08
John Simmerman
Everyone. What are some of the barriers that are getting, you know, encouraging more people to be active and get on a bike or mobility device?
00:21:39:10 - 00:22:05:16
Isabelle Clement
Yes. So, I mean, particularly from the point of view of disabled people, there are multiple a multitude of barriers to, to cycling. And we as a, as we'll at will swapping. We've started doing a regular survey of of disabled people who cycle and their views and their, the needs that they encounter as of, disabled people who cycle.
00:22:05:19 - 00:22:25:17
Isabelle Clement
We've, we've taken the survey, which is a very non unscientific survey because we're not a big academic institution. We or we're not the government. We don't have a lot of means, but we we pay on a regular basis, put out an online survey and say to disabled people tell tell us what your views are. And they're very clear and very consistent.
00:22:25:19 - 00:22:59:25
Isabelle Clement
The the main barriers to, to cycling, if you're a type of person, are, first of all, just the recognition that people like me, people like asking do this because we never see ourselves in cycling. Report, cycling marketing, cycling imagery. We. So as I said, we need to to realize we could do this and that that's one of the things that we're swapping is trying to make bigger is, is the awareness that this is a thing that disabled people do cycle.
00:22:59:25 - 00:23:31:15
Isabelle Clement
But then next, is, absolutely the infrastructure issue cycle, the nonstandard cycle, as we call the, little beasties of all kinds of tricycle, the hand cycle, a tandem side by side tandem, a recumbent tandem, etc., etc. the hand cycle is a slide. You may very you will often come across bits of hard infrastructure, which in which clearly tell you that you're not meant to be here, or we never thought that you might want to be here.
00:23:31:17 - 00:23:54:10
Isabelle Clement
Therefore we didn't build it for you. So it's either a whole cycle lane, you know, protected, nice, lovely bit of protected cycling infrastructure. But if it's too narrow, then you're stuck into the road and thrown into the road with with the traffic when actually there was protection provided because it's recognized that this road needs to protect you know, we need to protect cyclists on this particular road.
00:23:54:10 - 00:24:30:04
Isabelle Clement
Well, cyclists who who a wider road, a ride, a wider cycle just have to go on to the road so that one day literal barriers, chicanes, barriers to access, accessing sometimes rural cycle paths. But even in the city, a lot of areas have got restriction with restrictions to slow down, slow people down, all stop. The main reason we find is generally to stop mopeds, motorcyclists from going through pedestrians, pedestrian environments generally.
00:24:30:07 - 00:25:14:24
Isabelle Clement
And that's a terrible thing for, wheels for wellbeing for, for, disabled cyclists. Because they're everywhere and they are generally at the entrance of good bits of cycling infrastructure, the better ones the, the more secure ones, and those we're barred from because we have two white, allegedly two motorcycle. So yes, I love the picture. You just put on, which is, a, a report that a review and a report that were carried out by Sustrans, a bike, charity in this in the UK, which I know you you featured that the national black National Cycle Network, when you interviewed Laura like recently.
00:25:14:26 - 00:25:44:07
Isabelle Clement
Who wrote this wonderful book about the experience of using the national cycling network and its huge potential, for supporting more people into cycling. And, they did a big review of, of this national cycling network, some years ago and produced this report and some recommendations because the National Cycle Network, which they're the Sustrans Advocates Custodian of the they don't own most of the land it's on, but they are the custodian of the national cycling network.
00:25:44:10 - 00:26:12:07
Isabelle Clement
And it was in a in a pretty poor state at the time of the review. And one of the terrible findings of, of, the review was that they were, 16,000 plus barriers. This supposedly wonderful, you know, made a lot of it off road. Safe cycle network, but, non nonstandard cycle, users were there you go.
00:26:12:07 - 00:26:57:28
Isabelle Clement
Were barred from using it. So barriers, physical barriers have to be solved, have to be removed mostly. And in fact now that so that's been recognized by Sustrans as one of their key 15 priorities that they had. At the end of the review, I was able to be I was asked to be on the, review, strategic board, and I insisted that this needed to absolutely be one of the recommendations because unless it tackled, then we we continue to only provide, cycling infrastructure to those who already can use it, those who can pick up their cycle, put it over their shoulder and scramble over these weird contraptions.
00:26:58:01 - 00:27:31:10
Isabelle Clement
There's so many different bits of, so many brain, elements of brain power have been put into, inventing new contraptions. This, like torture, implements. No, they have no notes, no plates, cycling infrastructure. And in fact, the reason they're there, which tends to be to stop, moped users and, people who might be, in the way or creating danger for, for the users, for the pedestrians or the cyclists.
00:27:31:10 - 00:27:56:14
Isabelle Clement
Come on. Those found, in fact, those people who, who, who are misusing the cycle, the cycle paths can just pick up the mopeds and just throw it over and or under or do whatever they want, and they end up all that. You still find them, they still find a way is just another challenge for them. And what we need to do is enforce the fact that they're not meant to be there.
00:27:56:14 - 00:28:42:00
Isabelle Clement
And if they're creating, you know, behaving badly, the behaving and to socially, then the their moped needs to be confiscated or whatever the police can do. But by but by putting these contraptions in place, what we do is we follow the just the, legitimate users, the people who are starting off in the, cycling, on the journey into cycling, who are less confident, who need to build up their stamina, etc., who maybe want to do it as at the beginning as a, as a leisure activity and then can potentially start thinking about doing it, you know, more of a common utilitarian, utility activity to get places rather than just
00:28:42:00 - 00:29:07:13
Isabelle Clement
on a Sunday afternoon. We're barring all these people who need the exercise, who are more isolated, who are less, physically active. We're barring all of these people from benefiting from the investment we've put into some good infrastructure. So the health benefits of the nation. So it's a nonsense. And and nobody was saying that. Well, cyclists were saying this is really inconvenient, but they weren't getting very far with grumbling about it.
00:29:07:20 - 00:29:30:24
Isabelle Clement
And the difference we've we're making, I think, is that us disabled people who who wish to cycle, who do already cycle but want to cycle more, or who don't currently cycle but want to start with, we're able to say, look, this is very much an issue of of equality and fairness and in fact, equality legislation in the UK.
00:29:30:27 - 00:29:41:21
Isabelle Clement
And no, it's not lawful to be, put public investment into things which discriminate against people, against disabled people. That's just against the law.
00:29:41:23 - 00:30:05:00
John Simmerman
So I don't I'd also say that, you know, this is an example of a blind spot. This is an example of an ableism pedestrian blind spot where, look, we need to get these high speed, mopeds, scooter, maybe even, you know, in modern terminology, you know, powerful e-bike riders. We don't want them on here. And so we're going to create barriers for that.
00:30:05:00 - 00:30:47:26
John Simmerman
But the unintended consequences of this are what we've been describing. But I can also think of at least one really, you know, relevant example where it could be a completely able bodied person. It could be a mum, you know, with her, cargo bike, with her kids and and wanting to get to a meaningful destination. You know, she two would not be able to do this because she wouldn't necessarily have the ability to navigate the chicane or or in the case of something that needs to be lifted over, she wouldn't necessarily have the ability to lift, you know, a cargo bike loaded with kids over the top of.
00:30:48:00 - 00:31:29:16
John Simmerman
So again, it's I think that we have to have a little bit of grace and understanding and empathy for the fact that it was a blind spot. It was like there there was a legitimate reason for wanting to create these barriers, but the unintended consequences end up being pretty devastating for accessibility, for, again, all ages and all abilities to be able to, you know, enjoy these critical bits of nature oftentimes, but also critical mobility, junctions and connections to be able to go out, go about one's life.
00:31:29:19 - 00:31:49:13
John Simmerman
Because this may not just be, you know, recreation and, you know, in, in, in, in well being, it may be like a critical barrier to getting to a meaningful destination, like one's job or to school or something else. So I'm glad we were able to, to hone in on that. Yeah.
00:31:49:15 - 00:32:27:20
Isabelle Clement
Absolutely. And this is something that I, actually, I had myself a blind spot on on what you just described in terms of the, the connect, the connections to be made between different groups of, people who want to use cycling and who are, who were until recently being completely excluded. And I found myself at a, at a, a seminar years back, on a campaign, the London Cycling campaign was having one of its policy seminars and, I found myself in a little group discussing things with, a family cycling, cycling, campaigner.
00:32:27:22 - 00:32:54:13
Isabelle Clement
This lady called, Roxana and reached out to McQueen, and she and I just looked at each other and thought, hang on a minute, we're talking the same language. We're talking about the same barriers. And together we then went away and then, decided actually, we needed to, to, to to fight together to, to, to cut, to build a coalition of people with those who experience exactly the same barriers.
00:32:54:13 - 00:33:19:15
Isabelle Clement
We disabled people have an additional barrier of kind of the finality of, of, you know, the end of the road, literally, if we can't stand up and get off our cycle and maybe push it and fight around the chicane, but parents or, you know, and and also small logistics companies who use cargo cycles, just have we have our lives to live.
00:33:19:15 - 00:33:39:11
Isabelle Clement
We have our businesses to run, we have our children to move around. We have the shopping to get, to get home. And we're using cycles, which can do all of these things very efficiently and very sustainably for the planet. But we can't do it for the same reasons. So the, the infrastructure, the fact that there's not many of us about what they want at the time.
00:33:39:11 - 00:34:19:09
Isabelle Clement
So we weren't visible, we recognized and people like us didn't know it was possible, but also the cost of our cycles, these cargo cycles and our, nonstandard, disability specific, sometimes cycles of really expensive. So the, the heavy, the wider the longer the more expensive the therefore more difficult to and more important to store and, park securely because we can't invest over 5,000 pounds plus, in a, in a piece of kit which could disappear just because there's no proper, cycle parking provision for it.
00:34:19:09 - 00:34:43:08
Isabelle Clement
Secure enough. And we can't no, we can't put it over our shoulders and walk up some steps and come out the other side and cross the bridge and come down the steps again to the other side, etc.. So there is a real commonality of issues. From the the people who are cycling as a family with little with babies and little children and toddlers and little people on their little cycles alongside you.
00:34:43:10 - 00:35:09:29
Isabelle Clement
I cycling logistics companies and disabled cycling. So back in long before Covid, probably 2018, maybe we we created something called the Beyond the Bicycle Coalition, which was all about an alliance, a coalition of those of us who who use nonstandard titles, cargos on cargo trikes and bicycles, and just as nonstandard as a as my clip on and that's it.
00:35:09:29 - 00:35:42:27
Isabelle Clement
There's, it's a, a little group, of of individuals when there's no, there's no funding behind it. This is just the energy of a few people. Just saying, listen to us. We're we're not tiny little niche groups. We're a huge group of people. If you put us all together. And we could be if if we when we once we've addressed the issues that our coalition and bringing to the table, then we've got the power of addressing, for example, the, the problem of, the school run traffic we don't have.
00:35:42:27 - 00:36:11:24
Isabelle Clement
I think in America you've got the school busses a lot better organized, but we don't have that in many places in the UK. And the track this week is, is half term in London and it's beautiful. There's hardly any traffic because the schools are off. Next week they come back, the traffic will return. So if we could promote cargo cycling for, parents, then we could get rid of a lot of the traffic and the pollution, in cities and elsewhere.
00:36:11:27 - 00:36:36:24
Isabelle Clement
And again, the what we call here the one white van, problem, you know, the delivery vans which are crisscrossing our all communities, all the more so now that there are, online, that the online, retailing business is grown massively. So there's plenty of people delivering it in by vans, around, residential areas and, you know, cities.
00:36:36:27 - 00:36:49:13
Isabelle Clement
And we could get rid of a lot of that traffic if only we provided proper infrastructure and, and financial support, etc., etc., for people who want to do it by bike, by cycle.
00:36:49:15 - 00:37:22:23
John Simmerman
Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's a move away from the, the, the barriers, the chicanes on the, on the paths. And we'll start talking about the ltns. But I did want to mention just one thing before we do that. And that's the this blindspot continues to this day. I literally had, a representative from, the state of, Pennsylvania reach out to me earlier this week and, and ask and, you know, what do I think about putting in chicanes at the trailheads to keep high speed e-scooter off?
00:37:22:23 - 00:37:42:15
John Simmerman
And I said, no, this is why. And I mentioned that I was going to be speaking with you. And so they are looking forward to listening to and watching this episode. So I'm glad we had the opportunity to talk about this because it is a blind spot. There's there's just people that think one direction, oh, we need to stop these high speed motor scooters from getting in.
00:37:42:18 - 00:38:07:20
John Simmerman
We'll put this in. But the unintended consequences, really decrease accessibility. But let's move on to the on street, because this is a really you just mentioned the prior to Covid and the pandemic, but post Covid and during Covid, during the lockdown and until this, certain things started to change a little bit there in the UK and specifically in London.
00:38:07:20 - 00:38:21:16
John Simmerman
Walk us through this. And how does this relate back to accessibility and mobility for you? And you know, the folks that you're really advocating for with wheels for wellbeing?
00:38:21:18 - 00:38:45:28
Isabelle Clement
Yes. So that was fascinating for me because, as I said, I've been I discovered I could cycle and I really started to cycle on roads, in 2011, in some time ago. But in fact, I was a very timid cyclist at the time. I was a novice cycling just to start with, because I've never done it before on the roads and, but very timid.
00:38:45:28 - 00:39:03:09
Isabelle Clement
I was still very limited as to where I would go, and I would know a few routes and I would stick to those, and anything else, I would still take the car. I might put the cycled the clip on hand, cycle around the wheelchair in the boot of the car and get nearer, and then cycle the little bit that I felt secure.
00:39:03:11 - 00:39:32:12
Isabelle Clement
But I actually, and also I was commuting from, from home to work, which is not very far at all. And, and otherwise, I wasn't doing very much of cycling other than talk a lot about it. And then the pandemic came. And so we had something called low traffic neighborhoods suddenly be provided, across a lot of the city, as a bit of a, in an emergency where, the nation was saying, well, no, we can't congregate, we can't get into groups, but we should be walking and cycling.
00:39:32:12 - 00:39:55:29
Isabelle Clement
We can do this for an hour a day. That's good for everyone, is good for our health. Let's let's provide some more of it, for people. So a lot of local streets were barred to sign, to drivers, to drivers, or at least drivers were limited in. They weren't able to get through a neighborhood they could get in or by one end, or they could get into the other, but they couldn't get through.
00:39:56:04 - 00:40:21:10
Isabelle Clement
And that kind of constrained the the convenience of of cars. And in fact, I'd just I was, explaining on that on that slide that when I did a presentation to, to various people at the time that, where I lived, I was surrounded in a with very low traffic neighbors. My borough, Lambeth Council, put them out everywhere and all of my favorite cut thrus in my car.
00:40:21:10 - 00:40:40:15
Isabelle Clement
The to avoid traffic. They were getting blocked off and as a lot of drivers I was going, oh my God, all my. So you know this is a bit rough. This is a bit tough and but luckily I was equipped already to cycle. I had my trip on hand cycle and I actually I was quite a, I was somebody who wanted to cycle more.
00:40:40:15 - 00:41:01:04
Isabelle Clement
So I thought, hold on a minute. That's probably actually going to really help me, because those routes, which I drove through all the time, I didn't cycle through because there were local roads, which actually, I don't know what it's like in the States, but at the moment in the UK, road maintenance budgets are quite limited because there's not a lot of cash around.
00:41:01:04 - 00:41:26:27
Isabelle Clement
So there's a lot of potholes that a lot of the road surface of local roads, which are not the main thoroughfares. And across the city, the more that they could be safer for cycling, but actually because of the potholes, the bad quality of the, the cycle, the road surface as a tricycle cyclist, my my wheelchair and my slip on hand cycle turn me into a tricycle.
00:41:27:00 - 00:41:51:14
Isabelle Clement
It's really quite dangerous to try and avoid all of these potholes if this car's going up and down around you, and it's not a very road. So, in fact, the low traffic neighborhoods, by removing the faff, the rat running traffic made it. Actually, it didn't it didn't change. The quality of the road surface still is bad, but I could maneuver my way around it quite safely.
00:41:51:17 - 00:42:23:01
Isabelle Clement
And therefore, suddenly I found myself able to cycle many more miles across the city because they were all those pockets of of local roads which could have been a safer to cycle. There were actually a, there was something called the London Cycle Network, which was taking people through these, these back roads, back streets. But I never used them because, as I say, them, a bit of them quite dangerous for me, drivers to be, to be cohabitating, to remove the number of drivers.
00:42:23:02 - 00:42:48:21
Isabelle Clement
There were still drivers on those. Those roads were much more calm circumstances because they couldn't get through fast. I suddenly realized I could take those really pleasant, less polluted, less traffic, roads, etc. so I started to to go off and discover, my local neighborhoods, especially, during Covid, I spent time with friends going to find new bits of greenery.
00:42:48:21 - 00:43:20:15
Isabelle Clement
There's actually quite a lot of parks around London, but I, you know, we made it our our, quest to go and find new little bits of green, little parks, etc. and, and I wanted to go and check out all of those road traffic neighborhoods. And it took me to I was then able to reach bits of really quite, impressive bits of cycling infrastructure which had been invested in some time ago, called the, cycle superhighway, which were meant as commuting roads across London.
00:43:20:17 - 00:43:51:01
Isabelle Clement
I'd never managed to make use of them because it was too scary to get to them to, to get anywhere near them, with the road traffic neighborhoods, I was able to quite safe, feeling very safe, go further into town and go and join in with cycle superhighways, which then took me into central London, the center of London, etc. so suddenly it was like expanding my wings and my and my, ambitions, because the the city was cycling boom.
00:43:51:03 - 00:44:32:11
Isabelle Clement
Now, it's not without controversy because a lot of people are, very, angry about low traffic neighborhoods that become, a bit of a toxic term. And to be honest, a lot of disabled people have found them really inconvenient and have got very angry about, being about their ability to drive or be picked up by or dropped off by taxis, etc. in their neighborhoods as being inconvenienced by low traffic neighborhoods and as a disabled people's organization at wheels for wellbeing, we understand that we understand the experience of other disabled people who do not currently cycle or may never want to, or be able to cycle because of all the barriers we've talked about.
00:44:32:17 - 00:45:02:00
Isabelle Clement
So we're not saying low traffic neighborhoods are fantastic for everyone except they could. They could be. They just have to be provided for in a, by ensuring that disabled people in their neighborhoods are consulted and, and indicate areas which are really would make it really difficult and generally a, a planter or, you know, a camera to stop people going through, etc., that can be a few hundred meters forwards or backwards.
00:45:02:05 - 00:45:25:00
Isabelle Clement
There's a choice made at one point, and if you take into account the needs of disabled people who live on the street and there won't be, every house will have a disabled person in them, but a few will. And it's about connect. Connecting to the neighborhood and planning with the people who are who could be very negatively impacted and asking them for their views.
00:45:25:02 - 00:45:51:02
Isabelle Clement
And once we've done that, let's let's inconvenience everybody else, but just not the people who have no other choice currently but to drive will be driven. And that's a small minority, but really important in terms of, of of transport, justice, mobility, justice. We have to make sure that we take the most excluded into account before we do anything to change radically a neighborhood's, layout.
00:45:51:04 - 00:46:20:29
Isabelle Clement
So as I say, we are very pro cycling infrastructure, anything that makes it better for disabled people and everybody else to cycle. But we are very anti, inconveniencing or removing options for other disabled people who do not currently cycle or even walk or wheel, because some people just do not have the local circumstances to be able to take steps or to wheel along even a tiny bit, and they have to be picked up from outside as the front wheel.
00:46:20:29 - 00:46:42:16
Isabelle Clement
They have to be dropped out or dropped off outside the destination. And sometimes we find the, you know, the the changes in our neighborhoods is being done in, without, taking that into account. And, and that's damaging and it's damaging to the whole idea of improving active travel infrastructure and active travel prevention.
00:46:42:18 - 00:47:13:12
John Simmerman
And sometimes it's also just we were talking about perceptions earlier. Sometimes it's a misperception and a, that gets sort of blown out of proportion through misinformation. And, and sometimes, you know, the resistance to status to the status quo of drive everywhere for everything gets blown up to the point where, oh, what this means is you won't be able to get outside of your you leave out, you know, out your front door, you won't be able to travel where you want to go.
00:47:13:15 - 00:47:39:12
John Simmerman
That's not where we're talking about that. But it's really important to bring the temperature level down, get rid of the the myths and the rhetoric. That's happening. And I love the fact that you're literally working on the cutting edge of, you know, the other disability organizations and saying, yes, we hear you, we understand you. We think the same thing.
00:47:39:12 - 00:48:07:09
John Simmerman
We feel the same thing. What we're talking about here is not going to prevent accessibility. We want to enhance accessibility and choice. It's it's even, you know, like my, my stepfather, is is primarily gets around by wheelchair. So he, he's, suffers from post-polio and he's gotten to the point now where, you know, he pretty much needs to use a mechanical wheelchair to get around.
00:48:07:11 - 00:48:30:24
John Simmerman
Well, it just so happens in, in in his neighborhood, you know, where he and my mom are located? The sidewalk network is is good enough, and there's meaningful destinations within reasonable distances that he and mom can take up. She can walk, and he can be in the motorized wheelchair and get to meaningful destinations. That's what we're talking about here.
00:48:30:24 - 00:49:11:21
John Simmerman
We're talking about decreasing the rat, running the rat running for non UK folks. That means the cut through traffic of folks driving quickly because they want to avoid a traffic jam somewhere else or high traffic somewhere else. And they're cutting through what would normally be low traffic, low speed streets. And that's what these ltns do. Low traffic neighborhoods are, you know, configured in such a way where, you can increase the, the mobility for people walking, biking, rolling, strolling across a wide variety of mobility devices.
00:49:11:23 - 00:49:31:15
John Simmerman
So I, I love the I was able to profile several ltns when I was, there and we talked a little bit about, with several, individuals both in the Hackney neighborhood as, as well as, Sustrans took me around to, some of the neighborhoods, maybe even in your neighborhood to some of the LTN installations there.
00:49:31:20 - 00:50:00:01
John Simmerman
And we walked through, some of those challenges and working with the communities and working with the, you know, the different boroughs and understanding, okay, if this is what we're talking about, a lot of this is communication, because if we leave it into the void of people's perceptions and minds to go run crazy, then, you know, a lot of myths get put out and a lot of misinformation gets put out.
00:50:00:03 - 00:50:19:27
John Simmerman
To close this out here, Isabelle, I'm going to run a little bit of your video clip and just let you provide some final thoughts for the audience, that we haven't yet covered, that you, you know, really pearls of wisdom, that you'd like to to leave the audience with before we say goodbye today.
00:50:20:00 - 00:50:33:04
Isabelle Clement
Thank you. So, yes, I mean, oh, yes, that little, little clips of of me cycling and and, raving about my, my discovery of, of cycling, but.
00:50:33:07 - 00:50:34:18
John Simmerman
And the previous hairdo too.
00:50:34:19 - 00:51:08:06
Isabelle Clement
So I'm the that this is a few years ago. I mean really the, the the message it is, is about, ensuring that disabled people are included in the conversation about mobility, justice, and concentrating on increasing, as you said, choice, mobility choice for those who are currently the most excluded. And if we if we remove barriers to mobility to those who are currently the most excluded, then we improve the situation for everyone else.
00:51:08:09 - 00:51:30:02
Isabelle Clement
But let's not leave it to, to after having done things to then realizing that oh no, we forgot we had a blind spot and we forgot to provide for X, Y, and Z. At that point, it's really hard to to reverse the issue. It's really expensive. So we need to support disabled people into these conversations.
00:51:30:02 - 00:51:54:16
Isabelle Clement
We need to inform people, and we need to I would say, and I would say this because I run a disability organization which is expert in this area. We have to continue to get to into conversation with experts in, in the, the people who are from groups who are the most excluded and disabled people are one of those, there are others.
00:51:54:18 - 00:52:21:22
Isabelle Clement
Let's resource those organizations to be able to engage, to be able to, have a yes informed conversation because it actually is a minefield. In planning, planning, highways, planning cycle ways, planning, public realm, etc. there's a lot of complications, a lot of legislations, a lot of. But but if we don't have,
00:52:21:25 - 00:52:45:00
Isabelle Clement
Well, it used to be there weren't any women in sports. I mean, it's getting a bit better, but we were. I mean, what what what amount? The amount of blind spots that were being created are just simply not having women at the table, but by not having disabled people at the table, by not having, young people at the table, but not having older people at the table by not having people from different, ethnic communities.
00:52:45:00 - 00:53:29:15
Isabelle Clement
So at the table, we're not listening to the real end users who, if we're not providing for those needs, we aren't we are shutting out a whole load of people, not only from mobility and transport, but therefore shutting people that from education, from from our own community, from all our communities, from being able to contribute and work and, and and also from, being able to age well and, and and not ending up, you know, personally as having a difficult time with, with our health and, and costing the, the community, a lot of money and so, you know, being im far too young so it's, it's about.
00:53:29:18 - 00:53:53:11
Isabelle Clement
Yeah, let's, let's ensure that we are, bringing in people into the conversation. Who are experts in I mean, I, as I said, I never was a cyclist. I'm definitely not an engineer. I'm no techie. I knew nothing about pavements and curbs and widths and of lanes and camber and gradients. I did not I did not speak that like those languages.
00:53:53:13 - 00:54:25:13
Isabelle Clement
But I have educated myself, and I have come to the table with my perspective. Perspective, and my organization is now much bigger than me. And it's how we are able to be at the table and review technical plans, review policies, advice about bits of legislation, changes that are needed and hopefully making the whole of the provision for, for, for active transport, a lot more efficient and lot better, a lot more, cost efficient, a lot less wasteful.
00:54:25:15 - 00:54:50:29
Isabelle Clement
And, and, for the long term. So we have been able to be we, we were fortunate enough to be around, to be assertively saying we can bring a new knowledge to you guys. And we and doors were open to us when, guidance, national guidance were being revised when, London cycling design guidance was being devised or revised, etc..
00:54:51:01 - 00:55:15:07
Isabelle Clement
And now those documents are much better documents because they are, encompass and encompassing, you know, a much wider range of needs. And it's no longer that every cycling, design guidance is talking about the, the, the space envelope of the bicycle. Now, that's not where we start. We, we we start with what is now called the cycle design vehicle.
00:55:15:07 - 00:55:39:05
Isabelle Clement
And these are the dimensions. They're much wider. They're much longer. The swept path etcetera much, much wider. And once we've provided for those, of course, we've provided to the bicycle at the same time, but also for the cargo bike and for the, for the trailer with kids in the back or, you know, etc.. So hopefully we we're bringing knowledge into that perspective.
00:55:39:05 - 00:55:49:15
Isabelle Clement
We bring which brings knowledge, which is much, much more inclusive, not just of disabled people's needs, but of, of the whole population.
00:55:49:17 - 00:56:12:01
John Simmerman
Yes. Brilliant. Well well said. Again Isabelle Clement, director of wheels for wellbeing. Thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast. And folks, if you want to learn more about wheels for wellbeing, I'll make sure to have the, the link in the show notes, down below. Once again, thank you so much for joining me on the Active Towns podcast.
00:56:12:01 - 00:56:14:07
John Simmerman
This has been such a joy and pleasure.
00:56:14:09 - 00:56:16:06
Isabelle Clement
Thank you very much for having me.
00:56:16:08 - 00:56:35:04
John Simmerman
He thank you all so much for tuning in. I hope you enjoyed this episode with Isabelle. And if you did, please give it a thumbs up. Leave a comment down below and share it with a friend. And if you haven't done so already, be honored to have you subscribe to the channel. Just click on the subscription button down below and ring that notification bell and turn all notifications on.
00:56:35:06 - 00:56:53:04
John Simmerman
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00:56:53:06 - 00:57:13:29
John Simmerman
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00:57:14:06 - 00:57:35:18
John Simmerman
And until next time, this is John signing off by wishing you much activity, health and happiness. Cheers! And again, just want to send a huge thank you to all my Active Towns Ambassadors supporting the channel financially via YouTube memberships YouTube super thanks. As well as making contributions to the nonprofit and joining my Patreon, every little bit adds up and is very much appreciated.
00:57:35:21 - 00:57:37:01
John Simmerman
Thank you all so much!