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We talk to the people that make the gaming industry happen, past & present. From casual players to industry CEOs. Gaming for the Culture is for the people by the people. Gaming mobile to VR!
Junae (00:04.933)
Welcome to another episode of Gaming for the Culture. You already know, we just get straight into it. I do want to give a shout out to my Patreon first and foremost because they get these episodes live and then I release them to the rest of the world. If you would like to partake in the episodes by asking our guest questions, asking me questions, go ahead and sign up for Patreon. If not, just get it when the rest of the world gets it. No biggie.
Today we have a super cool guest, another super cool guest, because we only talk to super cool people. Today we have Danielle.
Danielle Rosen (00:41.244)
Hi there. Thank you for having me.
Junae (00:43.557)
Yeah, I'm excited to have you because I don't know Danielle at all. Like stranger danger, not danger, but like strangers. And we're about to get acquainted. And this is exactly why I love inviting people who are not like immediately in my network, but are adjacent to me because I get to have fresh conversations. because I know the opinion of like a lot of people in my network or like their story and things like that. And so.
Danielle Rosen (00:51.228)
You
Junae (01:14.277)
Today we're going to be talking about yours and I'm really excited. Please introduce yourself.
Danielle Rosen (01:18.524)
Sure, yeah. So like I said, I'm Danielle Rosen. I am the supervisor of long -form content at the score esports, which effectively means I handle all of our YouTube content that takes longer than the data make. So we are a primarily a YouTube channel as well. Like we publish primarily on YouTube as well as on social media, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube shorts.
And we do long -form video and short -form video, as well as we have a news video component. We have a, you know, multi -times -a -week, single -day turnaround news show for breaking news called Don't At Me. We have all of our short -form offerings on Twitter and YouTube Shorts, Instagram Reels, TikTok. And then we have, like, our big 15 to sometimes an hour and a half YouTube videos, and that is sort of my, my domain. It's that, it's that stuff.
and we cover esports. So if people are playing it competitively for money and it's not physical, we will write about it. I guess sometimes if it's physical too. If you don't kick a ball, then we'll deal with it because chess is physical and we write about chess sometimes. So yeah, that's, that's what I do.
I can't hear you, you are muted.
Junae (02:37.829)
Okay, that is a lot in a good way. I love that you write about so many things and that it's predominantly eSports. That is the second, like, that was like my second step in my journey. I came into video game journalism through indie games and then it was eSports because I'm a huge fan of fighting games. I love the inclusivity. I love like
Danielle Rosen (02:38.62)
I'm sorry.
Okay!
Junae (03:04.549)
You know, you really got to depend on yourself. You can't be like, hey, and you know, Harada said the same thing, right? He was like, a lot of people aren't talking about, you know, Tekken or fighting games because you got to depend on yourself. You can't be like, my teammate messed up. How
Danielle Rosen (03:18.428)
Yeah, I'm, I, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, but I'm also a fighting game girl. I come from a fighting game background, I played in like locals and tournaments and stuff, so yeah.
Junae (03:27.013)
That's amazing. So I have played in a total of two tournaments and I am not great competitively. I would always love to have been. I'm just not that good. You know, I'm just not that good. And then my hands hurt after a while. I'm like, golly, like we're talking practice. Like, you know, that's not, I can't do it, but my first love was Tekken because that's what I got on my PlayStation demo disc. So me and Tekken are close.
Danielle Rosen (03:52.924)
Thank you.
Junae (03:55.237)
And then it was Mortal Kombat. Like I was just looking at my stream from 2015 where I was playing Mortal Kombat yesterday. And like, that was real magical for me. And I just started doing fighting game tournaments in Colorado. And like, that's how the people knew me. And you know, fighting game people don't trust nobody. So the fact that I was able to put on like one of the biggest tournaments and like have like a whole like community really like come, cause I had a
Danielle Rosen (04:11.292)
Awesome.
Danielle Rosen (04:14.812)
No.
Junae (04:24.549)
gaming lounge. And so like they would come and like we'd have casuals and then I'd have tournaments and I'd have prizes and that's like, esports is definitely has a place in my heart, but I have found it difficult to keep up with. As of lately, like the past couple of years because it kind of felt a bit stagnant or
Danielle Rosen (04:44.956)
You
Junae (04:52.773)
You know, there was also that I believe is a better entry point, but I felt like the entry point was kind of high and the community wasn't super welcoming, especially to like women and things like that. But you, you're the expert. What do you, what do you think? Like,
Danielle Rosen (05:08.956)
I think that, I think that at least from a, speaking purely from like a journalism perspective before I get like the personal perspective, I feel like there is this moment when esports was like really booming, right? Before what people called the esports winter a few years ago, where every news site wanted coverage, everybody wanted to like, you know, get a bunch of features in, a bunch of news in constantly, right? Kotaku, I think, hadn't had, Kotaku and Deadspin collaborated on an esports vertical,
obviously, like, the score launch in esports vertical with esports. actually, we weren't even in vertical, we were, we were totally standalone from launch, which was just kind of surprising. ESPN did esports, right? Everybody wanted to get in on esports because it was booming. And for a bunch of reasons, economy, things slowed down, but I feel like a lot of journalists have a similar kind of arc where, I mean, I also got hired probably right around that same time to do esports coverage, because, like, everybody wants esports coverage, I guess I'm going to do esports coverage because I want to try to write about video games.
And I have kind of stayed in there because of just the nature of what the score esports has been doing and like how we've kind of shifted around in this space and and kind of adapted. But I definitely think that because of things like, you know, people call it the esports winter, it's more complicated than just, esports is dead because it's not. But because I think of that perception, because of economic headwinds changing, a lot of coverage sort of started going away.
actually made it harder to follow because you needed to be more tapped in, you needed to be more aware of the games. you know, I like to think that like by watching our videos you can really get a sense of what's going on, but I mean, you know, we have a really dedicated team of people who live and breathe esports, right? You think about like, if you have somebody, if you are a reader of any gaming blog, any gaming news site, you know, you've got people who care about video games broadly, but generally they're living and breathing their kind of like space that they care about.
They really care about Nintendo games. They really care about, you know, multiplayer shooters. They really care about MMOs, right? And those are kind of still getting out there on the IGNs, the Kotaku's, you know, of the world. We're asked the people who did that with like League and Counter -Strike and Dota and fighting games, you know, aren't necessarily doing that coverage at those websites anymore. And so you really need to find those super dedicated people that you can kind of follow to feel like it's not stagnant. Otherwise you're like,
Danielle Rosen (07:29.212)
what the hell is going on here? Like, a lot happens and you kind of really need to be tapped in to get it. I also agree with you that, like, esports has had a lot of problems. I mean, gaming in general has had a lot of problems with, like, women, queer people, people of color. It is a... and esports, you know, has that too. I have found that things have been more welcoming in certain spaces and broadly more welcoming over time. Again, the FGC is awesome. But, you know, that is certainly a thing that I think has pushed some people away.
Junae (07:40.037)
Absolutely, yeah.
Danielle Rosen (07:59.036)
Unfortunately, I think that that is a thing that happens in the general gaming media space too, which really sucks because I think the people who actually work, you know, in esports, in gaming, in whatever, are awesome people, right? Because they're probably, they're pretty reasonable for the most part. It's just sometimes, and even the fans are usually pretty reasonable, like we go to an event and everything is cool, but there is this sort of subset of like vocal jerks who do kind of overtake the conversation online sometimes, which
really sucks, you know? You go to a fighting game tournament and it is extremely diverse, it's extremely queer, and you know, you go online and it doesn't feel like that sometimes, even in the FGC, which is so diverse and queer.
Junae (08:41.861)
Yeah.
I think you really hit the nail on the head with saying that esports had its boom and then it leveled out and unfortunately I have a couple things to say to that so I'm trying to say them in order. So ESPN had like this esports section that I don't hear about and that you know a lot of people are like let go from and things like that.
And I remember wanting to write about like combo breaker, right? Like frosty, frosty foul stinks and like, and I wanted to do more. I wanted it to be professional because since I come from a journalism background, like local news, traditional news, I know how to up the production value, right? Not just the tournament itself, not just the live stream, not just the commentators. I think that's important inside itself, right? But like the way to present it to like the world.
I used to write, it was called like J 'Nai Esports, where I would write about esports fighting games and everything from a just kind of casual perspective of what's going on. Like, hey, you know, the Overwatch League is happening right now. Like, this is why it's important. This is who's winning. These are the teams. This is why the teams are like, you know, so why people are so like invested in the teams monetarily and attention wise. And I didn't.
really feel like that was going to get me to be like Jacob Wolf. Like, you know, like I just didn't feel that way. And I was like, you know, but I love it. I love it. But I'm so I'm going to keep writing about it. And that really did get me far like with Mortal Kombat, like I was getting those games for free. I was able to like talk to like the community, the community manager were like cool. Like at some point, you know, we became cool and
Junae (10:31.397)
I really enjoyed it, but like the payoff was really hard, especially like me being a black woman and like in the FGC, that's not really, it's a big deal, but it's not a big deal, right? Like it's not as like jarring as to see me like if I was like at League, which I did get to cover League. And I think this is what really, even though it was like one of the highlights of my career, it really kind of made me sink a bit deeper because.
I got to cover League when it came to Chicago. There was no WGN. There was no ABC. Like nobody came to cover League. And I did a write -up and somebody was like, why didn't you tell me before it was happening? And I was like, the biggest thing came to Chicago. That's like outside of like Lollapalooza. You know what I mean? Like League, like people traveled from everywhere to be at League and like.
Danielle Rosen (11:20.732)
Thank you.
Junae (11:25.925)
y 'all didn't know about it. And then I submitted something and I was just like, you know what, I think I'm done trying to get e -sports to the world. I'm done trying to get like the FGC to the world. And I think you do a great job of that, right? I think you, the outlet, like the people that you're able to work with, I think you guys do a great job, but also you're writing for people who know where to look for these things, right? Like people aren't just gonna glance past it. And I believe the last thing,
that I have to say about this is that nobody's really making esports games like that, right? Like, I don't know if CSGO knew they were gonna become like a whole cup, right? Like a league, like I don't know if they knew that, right? I know fighting game after fighting game, it's gonna be incorporated as it, right? So like that doesn't really count. But like, when's the last time like a new fighting game that wasn't, you know, Street Fighter?
Tekken, KOF, and like even Power Rangers Battle for the Grit. When was the last time a fighting game was released? And there's been a couple. And then they incorporated that and it was like, hey, we got tournament rules for it. That space seems really locked. Or can you think of one? Am I?
Danielle Rosen (12:42.812)
I mean, again, it's tough, right? Because I'm like, I want to be like, actually, Dragon Ball Fighters. But like, that's also a big franchise with like a big, you know what I mean? I think that it's, you know, we'll see what this Riot, like, Riot's fighting game 2XKO, which I still hate the name of, but that's still the game formerly known as Project L that I refuse to acknowledge this new name of. But the, like, even that, right, that has like a huge backing behind it, there's still some really cool indie fighters that have a great scene.
Junae (12:50.725)
Exactly, yeah, yeah.
Junae (12:57.381)
Exactly, Project L.
Danielle Rosen (13:11.196)
Tuffluff Arena is like a really awesome browser -based fighter that I think is like maybe the coolest game out there. And these are Japanese indie but the Under Night games are my favorite fighting games in the world right now. But to your point, I think that... I'm gonna say this and I'll go back to the journalism thing in a second, but I do think that you can never set out to make a game that's gonna be an esport. I think that's just like a doomed proposition, and I think we can kind of see it a little bit with Overwatch where the game...
Junae (13:21.829)
true.
Danielle Rosen (13:40.924)
doing okay, I mean it's definitely like a bit of on the downturn, but the whole esports thing fell apart because you can't manufacture excitement. You can't like, esports exists because people want to watch something because they want to play something and they think it's cool to watch it and compete in it, and you can't force that because you can't force people to care about anything. and so like, you know, Overwatch had this problem, and you're right, Counter -Strike they didn't make thinking, yeah, people are gonna play this in an arena in Berlin in, you know, 20 years.
Junae (14:00.165)
Exactly.
Danielle Rosen (14:09.82)
not what they were thinking about. They were like, we're gonna make a cool first person shooter with, like, different rules. Same with Street Fighter. We're just gonna make this cool game that people can play in arcades. And yes, now there's a competitive scene, so when they build a new Street Fighter, they assume there's gonna be a competitive scene. But it's not like they build the game and it's only one of Street Fighter V's biggest problems is that it was basically just, like, a training mode you played between tournaments and online play, and the game did miserably. Meanwhile, Street Fighter VI has, like, a whole open world mode where you do single player fighting.
that game was a huge hit, right? Like, you can't release a game and say, this is just eSports. And, you know, League wasn't like that, Dota wasn't like that, Counter -Strike wasn't like that, but these games that blew up in that moment, that tried to be that Overwatch, games that didn't even come out, like, break away, right? Those games kind of failed miserably. And so when it comes to fighting games, like, you just gotta build, like, a cool game that people like first, and if they do, tournament play will come, you know? I'm sure the, you know, Power Rangers, they had some really cool, they had like
clockwork making it, and like, they had lots of cool talent designing that game, but fundamentally, they're like, we're gonna make a love letter to Power Rangers fans, and everything else kind of will fall into place after. I'm really excited for the new Hunter x Hunter fighting game. I don't think that game is gonna be this huge, sick, competitive hit with great balance, but I'm a huge Hunter x Hunter fan, and I'm like, cool, it's gonna like feel like Hunter x Hunter, and I'm gonna have to play the characters I like doing the moves I think are cool. And if it's great, then maybe I'll play in a tournament, you know, whatever.
Junae (15:25.541)
Yeah. Yeah.
Junae (15:36.357)
Yeah, I think what you're saying about the I call it Hunter x Hunter. I know, I know, I know.
Danielle Rosen (15:42.908)
You're more correct. Neither of us are right. It's a dumb thing to call your thing. Don't put an X there if it's silent.
Junae (15:50.149)
I agree with that. I think the Hunter x Hunter game is going to be the tag. What was that? What was that all encompassing anime game? The name just left me. No, it had like every anime like ever. It was like anime showdown. Thank you. Yes. Ultimate jump. Jump ultimate stars. So
Danielle Rosen (16:03.388)
Mugen. Is it Mugen? It's like the on -comersy anime.
Danielle Rosen (16:11.228)
Jump Ultimate Stars? Yeah.
Junae (16:19.717)
I think it might be like that where a lot of people were excited, but that's because they got to play somebody who wasn't like a Goku, Vegeta, you know, like they had like one punch man who wasn't like Naruto, like they had a variety of other people. So I think that's great. And you know what did well for like a split second? The My Hero fighting game.
Danielle Rosen (16:24.988)
Yeah.
Danielle Rosen (16:41.176)
yeah, I never really paid attention to that one. That was like an arena battler, I think.
Junae (16:42.757)
Yeah. Yeah, that one was good for like a second. And then people were kind of like, you know, and I kind of get it right. Because unlike Dragon Ball, it's it it will and I think it already is becoming like a pop culture staple, but it just wasn't at that level to like get people interested. Like I think like people casuals, right? Not even like competitive players, but I feel like casuals were really interested.
Danielle Rosen (16:46.908)
You're cool.
Junae (17:12.805)
in that game, but like as a competitive player, you're like, yeah, I'm probably going to play fighters, right? I'm going to play fighters over like this one. And that one came out before fighters. So like, I don't know. I think they kind of were able.
Danielle Rosen (17:24.719)
I think that that game's like in a long tradition, though, of like arena fighters that people kind of tend to write off, right? Like the Naruto fighting games, the old Dragon Ball fighting games, people tend to write those off as being kind of simplistic, and they are simpler, but I mean, they're very, very fun. I played a lot of Budokai Takeiichi as a kid, played a lot of... was it Ultimate Ninja? Was that the PS2 or GameCube fighting Naruto game? Like those are, those are really, really strong, especially as like an on -ramp into fighting games. I feel like they really can like help you understand, like...
what combos are, what a character feels like, stuff like that.
Junae (17:58.629)
Yeah, I didn't get to play a lot of like, anime games when I was younger. Actually, I kind of just started my gaming journey when I got into college. So it's like, I got to experience all of this stuff, like with the community and not just by myself too. And I think that also lends to the hype because you're like, have you played this? Have you played this? Have you grabbed that? Yeah.
Danielle Rosen (18:25.339)
I think that's actually really fundamental to just enjoying video games, to be perfectly honest, right? Like, even single -player stuff. When I was a kid, right, so I've been playing video games since I was like six or something, like, like we're working on 24 years of playing video games at this point. Not wasting my life, I get paid to do it. But, like, the thing about a video game ever since I was a kid was, like, talking to my friends about playing the video game.
Junae (18:43.429)
Danielle Rosen (18:52.732)
I became a critic in part because, like, the thing I liked to do was play the game, think about the game, talk to other people about the game, get their feelings and opinions, and then go back and play more, right? Like, that sort of cycle of discourse about a video game. Now, the discourse was less toxic when it was a bunch of, you know, second graders or whatever. But...
that cycle of discourse was really, really like, valuable to me, and it, that was community, right? You know that other people are enjoying the thing you enjoy, you know that other people feel strongly about the thing you feel strongly about, and I think that like, I don't, I can't imagine someone getting into video games just like alone in their room, never talking to anybody about it. It just doesn't, like, never playing with other people, never talking to other people, never sharing their ideas about games. It feels like, I don't know, it just feels like anathemic to like enjoying media in general, like,
Junae (19:42.309)
Yeah.
Danielle Rosen (19:42.428)
there a person out there who just sits and watches movie and then just never tells anyone about their movie the movies they like like
Junae (19:47.205)
Yeah, yeah, that would be interesting. And I think even as much of an introvert as anyone can be, they're still going to find like a forum, like about the stuff they want to talk about and engage. So I think you're I think you're right. Yeah. You were talking about bringing it back to journalism. Do you remember
Danielle Rosen (19:52.636)
you
Danielle Rosen (19:57.532)
yeah, yeah.
Danielle Rosen (20:07.228)
Yes, yes. I was, well, I was gonna say that I feel like, you know, you mentioned like bringing League, like, you're in Chicago, and like, you know, none of these big outlets want to cover, like, League of Legends and, like, bring it to, like, broad audiences. The thing I was gonna say is that, like, I'm relatively fortunate that, like, we have this parent company, The Score, and then now Penn, like, who just sort of, like, have believed in us and said, just, like, do your thing. This is gonna be big. We're successful at this point. And so it's, like, a little bit more like, just keep doing your thing.
for a long time it was like, hey, like, this is going to be something someday, so like, you know, keep going, become like a voice in the space. But there's a lot of places like ESPN who just sort of saw the, you know, saw the downturn, right, saw the business start to kind of like get a little bit shaky, saw the venture capital money pull out in some cases, and decided to, you know, cut their losses a little. And I don't know if that's necessarily the best idea because
do think this thing's gonna be something. I think it's already something, obviously. I think it's gonna be bigger and bigger as time goes on, but sort of moreover, I think that you are looking at a lot of outlets leaning really hard into the stuff they already know works, if that makes sense, right? I read rea— I was reading recently all this, you know, the drama going around Kotaku recently that I'm— I don't know if you've heard about, right? But there was a call recently that they were talking about how, like,
management is forcing them to do nothing but write guides, right? Like, only guides, because they know the guides get SEO traffic and only guides for the biggest games like Elden Ring and Tears of the Kingdom. And it's like, if you only write about, if you're ESPN and you only write about the three sports people care about, right? If you only write about like football, soccer, and and I don't know, basketball, right? I'm not a sports person. It took me, it took me 30 seconds to think of a third sport. but if you
only write about those equivalents in video games. If you're like, I only, we only write about the biggest games of this very moment right now, and we never write about anything else in the games. Like, we're, we're curtailing indie game coverage to do more Elden Ring guides. We're curtailing eSports coverage to do more of this, right? It probably helps your bottom line, but like you're saying, it does stagnate you, I think, in the long term. It does prevent you from
Danielle Rosen (22:26.108)
finding new avenues. We talk a lot internally about like, how do we cover this game that we don't cover yet, right? Or what's this new game coming out? Can we cover it? Does it, you know, what's the esports hook? How do we, we talk about this thing because sure, yes, like the thing shrinks, but also you're opening your doors to more people, right? More people can read your writing, your work can be familiar with the play, the journalism you do, whether it's as an outlet or as an individual. If you do open your doors and do those things. I think there's a lot of people who try that with esports.
didn't saw some results but didn't see immediate mega giga results and kind of like pulled back a little bit. And I think you saw that with video games at large too, right? Rolling Stone did video games and then they pulled out, right? Glixel existed and it didn't. Now they're trying again and who knows how long it'll last. Washington Post had a launcher and now they don't, right? New York Times, I don't know what the state of their current game coverage is but I remember like a year ago them being, we're gonna cover games seriously. And I'm like,
We did this. We've been through this cycle. Commit to it or don't, but if you don't commit to it and give up in a year, you kind of destroy the institutional knowledge you built. It's why we have all these writers who have been in this industry for 15, 20 years, who are saying, you know what, screw it, I'm going into PR or I'm going into go to write about something else. I think it's awesome that we have places like Aftermath and Remap of people who lost their jobs and are like, you know what, we're going to build our own thing. That's really, really cool, and I'm really excited about those outlets.
you know, the larger outlets just are sort of churning through talent and we lose the people who have been here forever, who can, I mean, we were talking before the recording about like, you know, having a talk about everything and like trying to focus on the important stuff. You lose some of those people who have a ton of experience reporting on the important stuff. I think that general state of games journalism is really difficult as you have people, you have outlets who aren't willing to try new things and cover new things and then give up on the new things like covering video games or e -sports.
really early on in trying, and it kind of bites. I feel lucky that that hasn't happened to me, but it's a very, very rare situation, I think, that I'm in at the score.
Danielle Rosen (24:37.756)
Sorry I am rambling. I am going on for like hours at a time. I'm so sorry.
Junae (24:38.277)
No, no, I don't think you rambled at all. I was going to say that another podcast guest said the same thing about the consoles and them doing something that could be revolutionary, but being like, hey, this isn't getting crazy returns, so we're just going to throw it away.
Danielle Rosen (25:00.988)
Hmm.
Junae (25:01.125)
And so I completely agree with you, you know, and I love that you're in a unique situation because there are success stories and I think more people should tell their success stories so people can have hope and at least try. And I love when people, you know, grassroots and make their own stuff. I think that's so important. I have an outlet that I like realize I never talk about, but you'll never see.
Like I think as mainstream as the game got was like layers of fear too. You know, like it's all indie, all stuff that comes to my inbox that me and a few other writers cover. People who, so the way my outlet works is that I want people to get into game journalism. So I will show them how to write. Like I give them the guide and everything like that. And then they are posting and then they have their portfolio.
And then I don't get keep anything. I show them how I get like all of my stuff. If they want to get stuff to their email, if they want to sign up for this, get a press pass for that. Like I show them how to do all of that. And that's how, you know, I'm able to like, like give homage or at least spread the word about the games that come to my inbox. Cause Bandai Namco is coming to my inbox. I come out pre -order. They're not coming and talking about like, you know, their new thing. And so.
I agree. I think you said a lot of like profound things, you know, like, it's kind of sad. I think that's what I'm feeling right now. Right? It's, it's, it's sad that like, it's sad that I got it. Okay. So just like, I feel like the American dream is to be like, Hey, like if you stick it out, like if you keep going,
Danielle Rosen (26:25.404)
It's
Danielle Rosen (26:29.084)
you
Danielle Rosen (26:41.308)
You
Junae (26:49.637)
like this is really gonna work in your favor, right? Like if you just have persistence, like you gotta spend money to make money. And then these companies that have the opportunity to do that, they don't do that. They're like, cut it, it's not working. You know all those people we just hired and told them that they were gonna have like this huge cut it, it's not working, you know, send them somewhere else. And so it's interesting that like the backs of people who are very interested in this.
have to spend the time, spend the years, spend the low views, cry about it, go on a roller coaster of emotions of being a games journalist, entrepreneur, freelancer, because that's what you are, just because the Washington Post, the New York Times, ESPN, all of these places don't see.
Danielle Rosen (27:29.116)
Hmm.
Junae (27:41.157)
like it worth it until it's happening again, right? Like until there's like enough and what I wanna say about the current state of esports is that it's going to be self sustainable. Like it is on the way to becoming stable, which is what you were saying. And I fully think it's going to be like self sustaining at some point, you know, because you may not go to basketball games, but there's a bunch of people who don't.
And a bunch of people might not go to like the Halo Championship, but like there's a bunch of people who do.
Danielle Rosen (28:15.552)
I'm totally with you. I think we're going from a place where esports, I think, had, I think a lot of people, I think it's funny, we were talking about this for years in our newsroom and in our sock and stuff like that, just like, it feels like we're kind of going in an unstable direction. And I think what has mostly happened is just like, you know, we kept our heads low and tried to like, you know, keep everything going. And I mean, things were fine, like there wasn't really any problems, but.
we're, I was looking kind of out at the the world of esports, the industry, the business, and I was just like a little bit worried, right? Like we are going in an unsustainable direction. And I think things you're right that have normalized to we're going to reach a sustainable place because we've had a better realization of like, okay, how many people are actually interested in this right now? Maybe in 20 years more we'll be interested in it, but we can't pretend like 20 years is today, which I think it was a little bit of what was going on for like two or three years there. And
Again, we were sort of, I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, like we were always trying to be really careful about that, but I think that a lot of people may not have been. And what really sucks about that though is like, you know, you mentioned ESPN a few times, they later on, they did great work, right? Like I really liked having other people in the space, Dahoo Esports, ESPN Esports, Upcomer existed for a while. Like there were a lot of other outlets that don't necessarily exist anymore, dedicated Esports outlets, which is really unfortunate because
There's lots of people there who did lots of great work, lots of good journalists, people who I consider to be my peers or people who were previously my coworkers, right? Who like went to work for other places. And so it's unfortunate because I want these spaces to be like rich and full of reporters who can offer diverse perspectives and tell these stories of this industry. And hopefully it gets back there as we reach that sustainability place. And again, same for the game industry at large.
And know you're saying that it's a little bit sad, but my hope, the hopefulness that I have is in, you know, there are success stories, there are still outlets out there that are pushing, there are still, you know, companies and corporations that kind of believe in this. But there's also smaller stuff too that I am really, really, you know, you know, I really, really love, right? Like I am a remap listener. I'm an aftermath subscriber. I am like, I think these places are really important. These like writer, worker owned websites and podcasts.
Danielle Rosen (30:29.98)
because they are, hey, here are these people who have been doing this for a long time, and their voices are important to the industry. And so if we can keep that going, right, and keep them talking, I think aftermath especially, we will be in a better place in a few years for having done that. And I think that that is, to me, kind of like the next stage. And I think it's the next stage of journalism at large, right? The vector, 404 media, right, these kinds of blogs, I think journalism at large is seeing.
you know, a lot of corporations gutting what journalism is and trying to destroy what media is. And that's really scary. But places, I think, Defector started the movement and then you have the Discourse Blog and 404 and all the others I've mentioned, right? Like other places kind of like pushing the banner forward of like, hey, how do we keep journalism going in a pretty scary time for the media industry at large? And I think they're doing a great job. And I'm, you know, I want to support as many of them as I can.
Junae (31:28.389)
Wow, that's inspirational. I'm like, maybe I should try it. And I'm like, no, I'll leave it to the other people.
Danielle Rosen (31:33.5)
It seems like a lot of work. I am happy to not have to figure out what taxes for an entire company look like. That seems really scary to me. So I, but I'm happy that people are doing that work, right? The, it's funny, like my, my, my really good friend and I ran a podcast for many, many years in university and a couple of years into both of us, like working after undergrad and
Junae (31:41.221)
Yeah.
Danielle Rosen (32:01.34)
we had thought about like, well, what if we like make this a thing and be like, you know, sell some ads and like, and then we're just like, this is too much work. Let's just get jobs. This is too much. This is too much. Let's just freelance and get jobs. We can't, we can't do this.
Junae (32:13.669)
Exactly. It's a lot. It's a lot trying to be self -sustaining for something that you want to do. And, you know, like literally by the grace of God, I've been doing it for like 10 years. This year is a bit different because I have started to reach outside of the gaming industry to get like supplement like the stuff that I want to do. Like I do this podcast and I have like a lot of fun to do doing this podcast, you know, but I
I put this podcast down for like a very long time because I'm like, I'm burnt out. I'm content burnt out because like, you know, when I was like writing for PC Gamer and Tom's Hardware, there is a person like on the news desk who's like, hey, here are the stories that we have or here are the things that we need to do. I have to go search, do it, edit, post, share, like, you know, and that gets really exhausting to do like.
by myself and like, you know, I was really doing that for a very long time, like, because I was I was starting to see that, you know, a lot of these things could be overwhelming. So what I would do is just do a wrap up. I'd be like, Hey, you guys, here's like my daily wrap up. Here's like my weekly wrap up. Here's this week in in gaming this week in Xbox, this week, you know, just doing like a whole the whole G4 thing because they left and they tried to come back and then they left again. And I don't think it's because people don't want that content. I just yeah, I don't know.
But I was doing that for a bit and I didn't really ever see the numbers on that too. And I was like, why am I stressing myself out to do this if it's not like, and then I'd see people and they're like, yeah, I watched that. And I'm like, you don't know how to like, you don't know how to like, you don't know how to hit a like button. Like let me know this is what y 'all wanna see. And I'll like do the effort. That's a no brainer. So.
Danielle Rosen (33:54.204)
Hahaha!
Yeah, I mean, that's one of the most important parts, right? Is like, just the audience telling you they like a thing. I feel like we were talking about the community, the gaming community at large, people can get so toxic and the loudest people can tell you the worst shit. And it's just like, if you tell me you like something, that's just like a hundred times more important. Like the only thing that I will tell people who consume like a lot of like gaming content is just like, tell people you like a thing, hit the like button, tweet at them, leave a nice comment. Like it helps like both like...
Junae (34:24.709)
Yeah!
Danielle Rosen (34:28.572)
business -wise, like, I'm making the right choices or to keep going down this choice. But also it's just like, I don't know, it feels good. It feels really nice when someone says you did a good job because 8 ,000 people are saying you did a bad job, you know?
Junae (34:41.573)
Yeah, you know, out of my 10 views that I'm getting, you know, nobody's watching it all the way through. And it's like, if I see at least a little bit of retention, then it makes it worth it. Because then, as you said, from like a business standpoint, does it really make sense to keep doing content that nobody wants? And I think this is what like the Washington, you know, like post it. Like, I think this is what a lot of people did because
For the people that I know consuming esports content, they wouldn't go to the Washington Post. And I think that was also probably an issue, right, of like where they would choose to get it from.
Danielle Rosen (35:16.252)
you
Possible, y 'all.
It's possible. I just think that what had happened was they had good stuff and there was a, I mean, just like, let's be real, right? Like the, the, there's a financial crisis, right? Like there's a lot, we're, we're in a recession that people are pretending we're not in the recession. A lot of media outlets had to like take a second look and they said, all right, this thing is not pulling in. I think part of the problem too, is that we are in a bit of a culture that expects 300 % growth year over year. And it's just not feasible, right? That's not sustainable.
Junae (35:33.157)
Yeah.
facts.
Danielle Rosen (35:51.9)
think you can have it one year, but you probably can't have it four years in a row. And I think some businesses, not all businesses, but there are some major businesses and some major investors and some major boards or whatever who want to see 300 % growth every single year. And that's not possible. And so I think some outlets looked at something like Launcher, which probably grew, you know, over 100 % at year one and probably maybe even year two. But when it came to year three, it's like, well, it only grew
Junae (35:53.413)
Yeah.
Junae (36:10.533)
Yeah.
Danielle Rosen (36:20.892)
20 % this year. The remap crew talked about this actually when they broke off from Vice after they lost their jobs, which was they got a lot of subscribers the first year they did what was called Waypoint Plus, which is their subscription plan under Vice, and then they didn't pick up a lot more subscribers after that. Because it turns out just about everybody who was interested in being a subscriber, being a supporter, had done that already. And awesome, that was great, good.
they weren't getting thousands more every year. And at some point, Vice was like, boy, well, you're not growing 300 % this year. It's like, yeah, but they're sustainable business. These people can pay that, like, this altogether pays these salaries. But there is a bit of a, you know, the question becomes, right, not to get too, you know, anti -capitalist brain or whatever. The question becomes, is journalism a commodity or is it a service?
Junae (37:06.757)
Do it.
Danielle Rosen (37:13.468)
Right? Is journalism a product that we buy and sell that needs to make money for the people at the top? Or is it a service that tells people about the world, that tells people the truth about the world? And it's right now we live in a world where it has to be a little bit of both because we exist under capitalism and that's how things function. Journalism is a service that is funded by the people who want it to be a commodity. And I think that because of that, there's sort of some situations that are
under these systems a little unavoidable. But I think that if you, because they expect it not just to be self -sustaining, but massively profitable year over year. And that's a little bit, you know, that's hard, right? Journalism isn't a massively profitable year over year thing. It's a service that people need to exist in this world. And so any outlet that continues to support good journalism consistently over and over again, you know, just as a service beyond the, you know, the...
sure they're making profit, they're not doing it out of the goodness of their heart, but understanding that it's a service and it's valuable and trusting reporters to keep doing a good job and keeping the outlet going because they feel it is valuable for reason beyond simple profit. I'm sure they want the profit too, but it's more than just that for them. I think that's to be lauded, but it is a thing that is causing that, right? I'm sure people were reading Launcher. They broke some huge stories, they did some great work, but to Washington Post's investors or owner, right, because it's just owned by Jeff Bezos,
maybe that wasn't enough, right? Or to the board or whoever manages those decisions. It was like, well, you didn't grow enough this year and we're having some problems so we got to cut jobs. And these are the jobs we're going to cut today. And it does sort of speak to like, yeah, like what is journalism to you? And I think Washington Post says to us, the most important journalism isn't gaming journalism, it's political journalism, it's business journalism. And that stuff is obviously super valuable, right? I'm not saying that's not valuable, that matters too. But they made the calculus and said,
in the world where this is also commodity, we need to cut this. And I don't love that we live in that world. I would love it if we just all understood that all journalism is great and is valuable and is needed. But it's also just, it is the world that we live in. And again, it's why I think that these writer -owned websites are so, so valuable, because they will just keep going and be self -sustaining. Fingers crossed that they're self -sustaining, right? But they will keep going and be self -sustaining and fill those holes that are kind of left.
Junae (39:40.581)
Yeah, I agree with you in saying that.
if they're going to cut something, it's going to be gaming, right? And then what journalism actually is, I think, no matter what industry you go to, I feel like journalism is not going to be as important as like, you know, like there's always going to be like in the top three tier list, I feel like journalism isn't always in the top three, top five, or potentially the top 10, you know, maybe the top 12. And so there's always going to be like, well, do we really need it? And now,
no shade to like it will influence us with no ethics, mad shade, all the shade, palm trees of shade. You know, but like, now that they everyone has been kind of looking to replace journalism. And I learned about that when I started to try to be a part of the eSports team, like energy, I remember messaging them and being like, hey, like, how can I like be a part of this or help and they're like, you can do it for free.
And I was like, no, y 'all are like owned by Shaq though, right? Like, yeah, like you guys are getting Shaq money, you know, and this was like a long time ago. And they were like, yeah, no, we just don't have any room for that. And then they hired like, a social media manager, which is pretty like I was like, yeah, like, I'll do social or like, all right. And then I remember they just got like a buttload of backlash because like,
It wasn't good. It wasn't authentic. They just had somebody and I was like, and I literally messaged them and was like, this is what happens when you don't like put people who are in the space and then like put them on the front lines. Like you're not going to get anything good. And I saw that happening like so much. And so, you know, journalism is always getting cut. And then there's always like some sort of like nepotism to go with it to be like, yeah, such and such as niece can she, she can write tweets like let her do it. You know? so.
Danielle Rosen (41:38.428)
Yeah.
Junae (41:41.285)
I know that journalism is not the sexiest thing and not something that people think about when they're like putting things together. They think about us when they want to put their game out, right? They're like, get the press releases out, get this out, get that out. But then it's like, there's a disconnect, right? It's like, well, we know people look at these outlets, but like, let's cut them.
Danielle Rosen (41:56.028)
when we're advertising.
Danielle Rosen (42:02.076)
Hmm.
Danielle Rosen (42:09.052)
Yeah. And again, like, I feel really fortunate that, like, I work for a company that has trusted us and has, like, put their faith in us for, like I said, like, nine, ten years now, right? Like, the score eSports turns ten next year. Like, that's really crazy. Like, that doesn't happen very often. And we have people who said, like, hey, you know, not only are we, like, trusting people, but people that work for free, people we get, like, professionals, we hire people. That, like, original class of people who wrote for the score eSports were hired out of journalism school. I was hired the day I graduated. like...
They took it really seriously and I think it paid off, but to me it's a mark to say like, hey, if you take this seriously, it will pay off, right? Like, hey, here's the structure. If you take this seriously, if you commit and you understand what the business actually looks like and you hire the right people.
will probably work out, right? Because like, we're talking about all this big industry stuff, but like, there are, like you said, right, there are success stories, and I really do am happy that I can be part of one, if only because it shows that like, hey, if you treat this with respect that it needs as like a job with gravitas that matters, it is going to work, because people react to that respect, people react to the authenticity, people react to, you know, people being good at their jobs.
right? And that is the thing that kind of makes things go around, and again, I'm just happy that that I have gotten to be a part of that, because I've seen, like, you're saying so much of the opposite in the industry, which really sucks, because you're just like, well, obviously this didn't work for you, you didn't take it seriously, you didn't try, you didn't go for it. And unfortunately, I mean, the score did, Penn continues to, so it's good. It's, again, to me, it's like a little bit of a, like, there's a thing you can do here.
you just, and again Kotaku was doing great before all this crazy VC stuff, right? Like if you just let the people who know what they're doing do the thing they do, it will be sustainable and functional and people will come and love it. And that's my hope, right? That there's just going to be more people who like trust the writers, trust the journalists, and just let them be good journalists. And then, you know, we'll go from there. And I also think the audience will adapt too, right?
Danielle Rosen (44:18.94)
if the that'll come like they sort of come after the the media is structured for them.
Junae (44:24.805)
I think that people also need to not only hire the right people, but put like the real stock behind supporting them, right? So not only like trusting them, but supporting them wholeheartedly. Like we have to trust the arts as much as we trust the science, right? We have to support the arts as much as we support the science because like,
you know, while everyone's trying to pay journalists and artists and exposure, like those those things can make or break like whatever you're doing, you know, like, would it be funny if like, I don't know, Overwatch had like South Park level of graphics, like, sure, it'd be a gag, but like, would it be, you know, and I know, overwatch is not like the best example, since they're just doing so so at this point, but it's like,
You know, I think we really need to.
Dang, we really need to, you know, like, just be well -rounded in our support, right? Like, I feel like if you do anything, this is gonna get really vague, right? Insert vague comment here and outrage. But if you do anything, I think you need equal parts. If you start a business,
You need press releases as much as you need a logo, as much as you need people to help you to reach people. And I just don't think there's a difference in journalism. Even though it's journalism, it's like you still...
Junae (46:04.933)
Anyways, it doesn't it matters what I'm trying to say, but like I'm just saying that I agree with you and people. Yeah.
Danielle Rosen (46:11.708)
I think fundamentally, I think fundamentally, it's like a fundamental thing, right? You gotta be a journalist to do this to some degree. It's, it's something I say a lot is that it's a lot easier to learn about video games than it is to learn about how to write. Right? I went to school for four years to do journalism, right? To learn how to be a good journalist. That's not something I can just teach someone who happens to like Halo, right? It's awesome that they like Halo. That's useful to me to talk to them. I can learn a lot from them.
But I can't put them in front of a news story and have them turn out something that's immediately going to be great without a lot of work. However, if I take a fresh kid out of journalism school, odds are they like Halo at least a little bit. But it's easier to teach them the rules of Halo, a thing that people are designed to learn while playing the video game Halo, for example, than it is to teach them how to be a journalist. They already have the journalism background, right? And so those fundamentals, like you're saying, are super important, right?
You know, you need all of these things, but you also need the basis when you come to it. And you've got to trust that people have those fundamentals that they know what they're doing and they not only have the passion, but the skills, like you said, the arts and the sciences.
Junae (47:19.173)
I think a lot of people hate journalists. Like they always make fun of journalists not being good for being for being good at games. What'd you say? Yeah.
Danielle Rosen (47:26.588)
Don't get me started. Don't get me started.
Junae (47:32.549)
And I'm one of those people that I'm not like super, super great like at games, right? Like I'll live stream and I'll play, but people come to kind of just like laugh with me, right? They're not coming. Cause like Janaye found an Easter egg. Like what? I probably missed it. Sorry. You know, but I have those skills of research and I have those skills of writing to the people. And I have those skills of not bearing a lead and not being clickbait because I have ethics, you know?
and I approach everything like that. And so exactly what you're saying, you know, you could take somebody who has the fundamentals of journalism and put them anywhere. That's the whole point, right? Like I could start writing about finance tomorrow. Like that's no problem for me, because I'm going to do the research, I'm going to get the lingo, I'm going to, you know what I mean? Like I'm going to apply my ethics. It's like we have a template.
And then it's like, well, what are we interested in? Okay, well, like, let's go and do more of that. Or like, what are we not interested in? What's paying the most? Like, where can I get the bag of the best? Like, that's what I'm going to go do. So it's just kind of like, a lot of people just hate journalists because they want them to be those. And we are nerds with them, right? Like we are those nerds with them, but they want that. Well, one, they want them to be like white, cis.
Danielle Rosen (48:47.868)
Cool.
Junae (48:54.437)
male who's like a gamer bro who's going to, you know, just look like them. I don't, sometimes the words aren't as important, but you know, if you ask someone like, yeah, we don't really need game journalism, but you guys will continue to click on Kotaku, IGN, right? Like half of these forums are because a game journalist posted something that you didn't like.
And now you're like reading or partaking in or like spreading about how much you hate it, which is fine, right? Because you're allowed to have your opinion. We write so that you can put pieces together so that you can like make it, make form an opinion and things like that. So, they hate game journalism. You know, they hate game journalists. They hate game journalism because they, they want us to be.
a forum and an influencer and a content creator because they're like, well, you just get free games. And it's like, yeah, but I have to play these like critically and not just like mindlessly, right? Like I can't, and I'm not saying anybody plays anything mindlessly, right? Like don't get me wrong, but like it's different when you're like, I'm just playing to go through it versus like.
is this accessible? Is someone, cause like if you're playing it, you don't have to worry. Like, and if you're not a person with a disability, you don't have to worry if it's accessible or not. But like you want to be informative. You don't have to worry about being like colorblind if you're not color. Like, you know, you don't have to worry about the HUD. You don't have to go through all of the settings. You don't have to actually see if they work. You don't have to replay a level to be like, wait, like, why is this thing weird? Like that's the difference. And so.
They want, I don't know what they want us to be. I think if we would get a solid answer, I think we would.
Danielle Rosen (50:42.812)
I think they want us to be fans. But they want us to be uncritical fans, right? They want us to be like, it was like you said, right? Support their existing worldview, and not be challenged in their worldview. And I think that's really unfortunate because people can learn a lot. I learned a lot by reading critics when I was 11, 12, 13, right? My worldview was challenged and I learned a lot. And you appreciate games at a deeper level when you take in all these extra perspectives and you take in the, you know,
either like hard news truths or like different critical lenses and analyses. I think they want to have, I think it is a natural human response to want to have the thing you feel in your gut reflected back out at the world, right? And it comes back to you and then it's the thing you feel is validated by someone else saying or doing the thing. And I think that's what they want. I think they just want it validated. And I think that sometimes when it is not validated, they get very, very angry.
as opposed to thinking about, well, why do I feel differently than this person? Because what this person is saying is also not necessarily a fact, right? It's a critical opinion. And they don't, I think there's a whole cultural thing to get into of why people are like that. But I think that they just want, in a very natural human way, to see their opinions reflected back at them. Now, where they go from there to the anger and to the toxicity, that's not OK. But it's why you end up with the like,
I've been paying attention, I don't know if you paid attention to like all the controversy around the Elden Ring DLC, where reporters said, this is hard. The studio said in interviews, this is hard. And then fans when they played it were like, this sucks, it's too hard. Even because initially the reaction was the toxic fans were like, well, these are game journalists, it's not actually hard, they're just bad at video games, right? And it's just like, well, first of all, this has been given to the people who like FromSoft games who are probably pretty good. But second of all, like,
no, it's actually hard. They made an actually really hard game on purpose. And now you're playing it, and now you're mad because it's hard, and they nerfed it. There's a headline. Whose headline was it? Was it PC games, PC gamer, or game? I can't remember. Someone's headline was like, Elden Ring, it was like Elden Ring DLC nerfed, even though it was, it was something, something like, Elden Ring DLC nerfed so now you can beat it like the game journalists did, right?
Danielle Rosen (53:09.628)
It was really funny. It was so good. It was so fucking like, really good. But it's like, there's a positional thing. It's like us versus them all of a sudden. And it's just like, but the reason that they're being like, you're bad at games is because they've decided that that's part of the narrative of, critics don't reflect my opinion back at me, therefore they're bad. And the ways in which I can insult them included saying they are bad at video games.
Junae (53:11.249)
my gosh. Yeah.
Danielle Rosen (53:35.932)
It's like, I don't know, people who play video games are some of the best people at playing single player games I've ever met in my life because they have to beat them without guides. The people who make guides are better at video games than people who have to read guides.
Junae (53:43.717)
Yeah, we like, yeah, exactly. And you know, I like, there is a lot for the people who go through games with a fine tooth comb. And then there's a lot for the people who have to, to get it out to other people. You know, I think that's, that's definitely a skill in itself.
Junae (54:07.109)
as far as people wanting things to reflect back to them and then also being like you're bad at a game, you know, I guess their logic has to deal with, but if you get all these games all the time, it's like, well, why aren't you good by now? Like, why aren't you, you know, and it's like, well, one, I have to play the game.
Danielle Rosen (54:25.436)
Hmm.
Junae (54:30.917)
how I need to play it, right? We're not even doing a speed run test. Like I'm not the speed runner, like content person. I'm like a journalist who has to go through this and tell you what I need to tell you, tell you what I think is interesting, what it relates to. And if you like this, you'll like this, you know? And I've met people who hated that. They're like, no, you know, what was it? man, there's this really old Xbox game called iDARV.
and it was just like a soccer platform game. And I was like, I was like, yeah, you know, it's a little bit like, I was like, it's giving a platformer, right? So it's like Super Smash, but it's with a soccer game. And they're like, no, it's not like Super Smash at all. And I was just like, hey, you know, I'm really just trying to use language who this is like for, right? Like you want to win, it's three, three V three, like something like that. And so.
Danielle Rosen (55:00.38)
I know I don't.
Danielle Rosen (55:21.596)
who is i who developed idarb i'm trying to remember is it it's not brandon sheffield is it is it it's mike mika for sure it was because this other ocean which is now all those other ocean people do i can't remember that game studio i guess actually frank doesn't but the it's the people who do those like retro remasters and re -releases like they just did the jeff minter collection and the prince of persia like a museum thing
Junae (55:27.685)
I'm not gonna remember.
Junae (55:43.013)
Mm -hmm.
Junae (55:48.773)
Mm -hmm.
Danielle Rosen (55:48.924)
I know it's them, but I feel like there was like a designer on that that I'm not remembering. But anyway, it doesn't matter. That game was really cool. I like that game. Sorry. We were talking with Jordan Olsen and was just like, yeah, I'd are. God, that game was great.
Junae (55:54.917)
I love that game.
I love that game so much. That also helped like jump my streaming career because I played it all the time on my Xbox. Like it was so good. But yeah, it's just like, you know, as a journalist, I think you don't care as much that people like have an opinion or I have to get to a point. I was like, but I'm creating discourse and that's kind of what I want, right? I want discourse. I don't want like discord, but I want like discourse of people talking about it.
Danielle Rosen (56:06.172)
Mm -hmm.
Danielle Rosen (56:25.436)
You
Junae (56:28.645)
having feelings behind it and then hopefully at some point their feeling will not be as strong as to completely, you know, dismiss anyone else's view. So, game journalism has always been hard and it's always, yeah, you know, because like that's what I, that's what you like, right? That's what you like. You don't want anybody to push you out of the space or anything like that.
Danielle Rosen (56:38.876)
Whoo.
Danielle Rosen (56:47.868)
We keep doing it.
Danielle Rosen (56:53.724)
Hmm.
Junae (56:58.693)
And I don't have an opinion less for it. I don't diminish myself and being like, well, I don't know. I'm like, well, this is what I think, right? Because I was writing objectively. So like, this is what I think, you know? And in my current newsletter, I do still do a bit of game journalism.
Danielle Rosen (57:08.444)
Hmm
Junae (57:19.717)
And at the bottom, I literally go, Janaye's opinion. And like, I will write my opinion there and it's still habit, right, to go through all of this and be like, hey, this and this and this and this and that. And I don't ever remember writing a game as hard. I never, ever remember. And I reviewed a game called like Sandstorm Insurgency or Insurgency Standstorm, which was like a simulation shooter where like you really had to like know about guns and stuff. And I was like, bro, I am so lost.
Danielle Rosen (57:33.628)
Hmm.
Junae (57:49.093)
But I was like, I'm gonna play it and then I'm going to look up other games that are like this to see why people liked it. And if I can see like the same things, then I can relate it instead of being like, this isn't really my game. So I don't know what to tell you. That's not what a journalist does. That's what a fan does, right? I'm never playing that PlayStation game because I'm team Xbox. That's what you do. You're able to be like, I don't have to care anything about PlayStation exclusives because that's not me. I don't get that.
right? And I did it to myself, right? I don't have to be an Xbox journalist. I don't have to be a PlayStation journalist, Switch, PC. I can even be like a mobile games journalist. I can do any of it. Because that's what we signed up for. As I think we're just gonna repeat, you know.
Danielle Rosen (58:36.956)
Yeah.
Danielle Rosen (58:42.044)
Okay, the, yeah, I'm with you, right? Like that's the thing that's like the challenge here is also understanding that like we care about a breadth of games that are a little different. We also play more games and think about games more. And that doesn't make us better or worse. It just makes it different. And it's why you want to read those perspectives. Also, I'm going to say I was, I said earlier that those former other Ocean Current Digital Cups guys made a Prince of Persia collection. I meant Karateka. I was just going to be mad at myself if I never corrected myself because I'm a nerd.
Junae (58:55.205)
Mm -mm.
Mm -hmm.
Junae (59:09.445)
Okay.
Danielle Rosen (59:10.652)
but yeah, I fully agree with you that, like, the challenge is in, like, kind of getting people to understand that, and that I— breaking down those walls would be really nice, but I think it will take a while before you get really more of that. Again, the thing that I like is being in these smaller communities right now, the ones that care about these, like, you know, small, worker -owned and writer -owned blogs, that these are a little bit more positive and have a little bit less of, like,
rank and file that like read the IGNs of the world, and even again 99 % of those people are probably lovely. It's just you get 1 % of people who are jerks on Twitter, and you know, hopefully they stop being jerks someday. I don't know. I will say to your point before about like, the w the person you are and them wanting a certain kind of person, I am in a weird place where, so I'm a I'm a trans woman, I came out
I didn't, I haven't really gone, I used to do a lot of on -camera work before I came out. And I did, I've done very, very little post -transition for a bunch of reasons, mostly just time. But I, it's very interesting seeing the ways in which people, well, like, you know, fundamentally respond to me differently in the audience than before, right? And...
I was not surprised, right? I know that I've had lots of people who have friends who are women who have been on camera who've worked in the game industry for years, but it is notable the way in which you see very specifically that they are looking. Some of these people are looking for a specific kind of human to say their opinion back to them. And that really sucks. That really, really, really sucks because there's lots of people out there who you can learn from who are nothing like you. And that's what's great about, again, to go all the way back to the like...
One of the first things I said, one of the cool things about playing video games is that you get to talk to other people about them and share your opinions and share your ideas. And if you never do that, like, are you really enjoying video games? Like, I don't know. Are you really having fun if you're in an echo chamber? I guess it's like, I could never understand that. And maybe they are, but it just doesn't make any sense to me. But yeah.
Junae (01:01:18.981)
I fully agree with you. And I do think it's silly that people look for the person. So it's the person you feel like you could try it with, right? That's what they do. They're like, you're somebody I could talk to crazy. Let's go. You know, you're somebody I don't have to filter myself with. And you're like, you are like you do though. Like, I don't know what you thought this was, but like, you know,
Danielle Rosen (01:01:30.959)
Hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Junae (01:01:44.005)
this isn't that and I don't ever want you to think you could talk to me like that just because you think that I'm something in your head just because you you're you make an opinion about me without even without knowing me so yeah it's interesting you know on camera work is interesting by lines with your name are interesting like you know just being out there being able to have like this public facing
Danielle Rosen (01:01:57.596)
Yeah, we've been, yeah.
Danielle Rosen (01:02:06.076)
Hahaha
Junae (01:02:14.277)
platform gets a bit difficult because like people will just look for any reason to be like, you're so you know, like I remember I was posting about Mortal Kombat at like combo breaker and I like posted the video and like there were so many comments about like she's ugly. This person's ugly. The one in the middle is really cute. And I was like, but you know, you wouldn't have found my video if I didn't tag it Mortal Kombat, right?
And then you also would have found my video if I didn't tag it like women in the FGC, right? So you came here looking for something and I have the answer, but like this is what the comments are about, you know? And so I laugh now, but I think it took me a while to laugh and be like, you guys are bored. You guys are bored. And because you actually don't have the courage and the strength to be in a public facing.
Danielle Rosen (01:03:00.348)
Hmm.
Junae (01:03:09.221)
You know what I mean? Like to do the things that like we're doing, you're going to have all types of opinions and how I should have did this. Like I remember I played Assassin's Creed Valhalla and I played it forever because it was so long and like I had to review it. And I just remember staying up and re -recording and recording and my equipment wasn't working. And so I was like, Hey, I'm playing Assassin's Creed Valhalla. And the comments were like, can you be more excited on my stream? No.
Danielle Rosen (01:03:37.5)
you
Junae (01:03:37.733)
No, I can't. Or like, it was like a review and I was like, hey, this is what you want to learn. But I wasn't like, hey, you guys, welcome to the stream. Welcome to the review. Here's what you're going to learn about Assassin's Creed tonight. And like, I'm like, y 'all came here for information. That's the equipment. And be like, hey, girl, why don't you smile? Why don't you mind your business? I gave you what you came here for. You didn't come here for my bubbly personality or you'd be here.
Danielle Rosen (01:03:56.956)
Mm -hmm.
Junae (01:04:02.053)
Right? So if this is your first video of me, that's why you're like, can you, you don't even know me. You're just like, I just want somebody to be more enthusiastic. No, because I feel like if I was, I don't remember his name. Is it Mobb? If I was Mobb from Mobb's Psycho, you would expect me to be very monotone and boring and just give you the information that you want. So I say all of that to say this is the end of the episode.
Danielle Rosen (01:04:28.636)
We haven't even talked - I was gonna be like, we talked so much, and I was just gonna be like, we talked so much about journals and we even talked about video games, so...
Junae (01:04:34.533)
You know what? It's all in a day's work. It was adjacent around it. I got one question. I got one question for you and this will be our hot takes section. Why do you think Mortal Kombat is not doing as well as Tekken or Street Fighter 6 this year?
Danielle Rosen (01:04:40.451)
Sure, hit me. Hit me.
Danielle Rosen (01:04:51.964)
Okay, so this is where I grand reveal that I'm a Mortal Kombat hater. I don't really love Mortal Kombat, I think mechanically. I respect people who play it, I understand that there's a game, a really deep, interesting game there, but I don't find it that interesting. I find its fundamental, like, its combo rules to be uninteresting. I don't think NRS is really that great at balance. I think the ways in which that game, NRS games often in their later years tend to devolve into...
either a zoner that crushes you or a hyper quick pressure rushdown character that crushes you, kind of bores me. That said, every time I go to a Mortal Kombat event I'm like, maybe this game is cool. And then I fire it up when I go home like, no, I still don't like this. Matter of fact, everyone who does, I'm not saying they're bad games, I'm just kind of a hater. I was at the Mortal Kombat, Final Kombat finals in Toronto. Yeah, it was in my backyard. It was actually in my university. I was there a few weeks ago to do some reporting, do some interviews. We actually
Junae (01:05:41.093)
in Canada.
Junae (01:05:45.253)
Come on.
Danielle Rosen (01:05:50.396)
Small plug, we'll have a video coming out in about a month. I just finished writing it. So, but we are good.
Junae (01:05:56.517)
They'll have a video coming out in July or August, because it's June right now. Yeah.
Danielle Rosen (01:06:01.276)
Yes, yeah, whenever this comes out, July or August, please watch it. it is, going to be about Sonic Fox, who is a great person, loves Sonic, loves Sonic Fox, always, always a great person to talk to. But we, you know, I was there and I enjoyed it. I was actually also in the first Final Combat in Chicago a few years ago, which was speaking of Final Combat in Chicago, which was the... How are you? Amazing!
Junae (01:06:09.541)
Of course, how could you not?
Junae (01:06:20.005)
Mm. Mm -hmm.
there. I have a picture with the trophy. The trophy was like, no way. That was injustice too.
Danielle Rosen (01:06:31.164)
That's really different because Final Combat was the day COVID started, and so they didn't let anybody in. We were only there because we had like a deal with, we were part of like a sponsorship deal, and so like we were just there as like official media. So like we were there, but we were the only people in there that weren't tournament staff or players or families that were allowed in the event, which was wild because it was like, this was March 2020. Like it was like, we got out of there and it was just like, I don't know if we can get on a plane right now.
Junae (01:06:35.525)
Junae (01:06:50.277)
Okay.
Danielle Rosen (01:06:59.772)
it was literally day zero of COVID. It was crazy. But anyway, I think Mortal Kombat's problem for Mortal Kombat 1's issue is sort of, I think, twofold. One, I think that, I think that they've, they've kind of screwed the pooch on communication. I think that it is like, they weren't talking about anything for a while and the changes they were making were baffling and they weren't dealing with the game's biggest problems. And so a lot of the core players got really upset.
And I think that that is a huge problem. Now, Mortal Kombat 1 sold really well, because every Mortal Kombat game sells really well. It's a competitive scene that is a little bit smaller. And the competitive scene has never been as big as Street Fighter or Tekken, at least in the modern era, because the game just doesn't have as strong balance, doesn't have as strong communication from the dev team, right? That's sort of been a running trend throughout Mortal Kombat's modern history. That's not to say that it's bad, it's just it's been a struggle for them. I think the other problem too is people knowing that this game has a real shelf life.
We know that Street Fighter VI and Tekken VIII are gonna go away one day, but Street Fighter V and Tekken VII lasted for like seven, eight years. World Combat is gonna be here for like three, you know? And then there's gonna be a new one. And so I think that sometimes discourages you. That said, I think this game is particularly struggling because of some balance issues and communication issues that have really turned a lot of people off the game. And then the other thing that I kind of got the vibe from, from people who were at that event was like, some people just don't like the game. I love an assist -based fighter.
I think they're grimy, they're fun, you can do some crazy stuff. But I think a lot of people feel like the game got maybe a little too grimy and a little too single player at times. When Johnny Cage is pressing buttons at you for like 30 seconds and you're like plus forever because you have Cyrax doing his spin and you just he just gets to keep hitting you, or you've got Chameleon doing the Jade glaive back and forth and you just have given this character who's always plus a way to deal with the one problem he has which is sometimes he's not plus.
He's like, what are we doing here? Or, or, I know they just nerfed him, but, Peacemaker who just gets to like, be the world's greatest zoner who happens to get an assist that also gives him incredible mix up and pressure. It's like, why did these choices that we're making from a balance perspective? I think that stuff is kind of cool, but I also don't play the game. And I can understand that when you're playing the game and like $200 ,000 on the line, you're like, Sonic called the game, Kusuge in the interview, Kusuge being Japanese for shit game.
Danielle Rosen (01:09:27.1)
which is a term that people use for when a game is like ridiculously broken and like silly and you don't take it seriously but you play it to have fun, it's a little bit of a kusugei. And I think that's making some people not that excited about it. That said, I think all those people will still play if there's a season two of the pro competition, and basically everybody I spoke to at Final Combat told me that they're they're much more hopeful for the game now than they were like a few months ago.
Junae (01:09:33.349)
That's funny.
Junae (01:09:52.549)
good.
Danielle Rosen (01:09:52.668)
And so I think that that is like a pretty good sign that all of these people are like, hey, like the game will be in a better place. So that's that. Sonic Fox also told me that they're going to be taking Tekken really seriously and they're grinding Tekken for EVO. So, you know, actions speak louder than words if they're playing Tekken, not World of Combat, but they'll probably play both. I'm sure they'll still do well at MK.
Junae (01:10:13.477)
Yeah, it really the tier list for this year's fighting games seem to be not counting like Under Night and Birth because I know that has a community and it's just not as big. It's just not as.
Danielle Rosen (01:10:25.148)
There are millions of us, Janaye. There's millions, there aren't millions of us.
Junae (01:10:29.573)
I mean, you know, but you would you can't tell the other people that right? Like, I feel like Under Night and Birth, I think I think it just doesn't get as much play and not play but like as much show at like but they'll still have it at the tournaments and like that I think that's that is like speaking volumes. So I think the tier list for this year is Tekken, Street Fighter and then MK just because I feel like those are always
Danielle Rosen (01:10:44.636)
Yeah, totally.
Danielle Rosen (01:10:59.612)
be perfectly honest with you, Guilty Gear is a lot bigger than MK right now. Yeah, Guilty Gear, Guilty Gear's Strive is really, really popular. It's, MK, what were the Combo Breaker numbers? Because the Combo Breaker entrance numbers are a really good, like, lip assess for this. And it was like, Tekken was number one. Yeah, here, close of, close of registration numbers. Tekken had 1 ,620, Street Fighter 6 had 432, Guilty Gear had 863, and then I've got to scroll way down to MK 1 at 274.
Junae (01:11:03.141)
What? Good for them!
Good for them.
Junae (01:11:14.085)
Yeah.
Junae (01:11:29.189)
wow. Okay. Grand Blue, yeah. I feel like Grand Blue is very consistent though. Like I feel like.
Danielle Rosen (01:11:30.46)
Under Night had more people than .K., Grand Blue had more people than .K. It's a tough time out there for .K. People do not love this game.
Danielle Rosen (01:11:42.748)
Grand Blue had like 600 people for this, which is crazy to me, because that game I played, I think that game was really, really good. It came out with terrible netcode during COVID, and I was like, I can't play this game. I don't get to leave my apartment to play FIFA, I can't play this game online, so I'm not playing it, but I've heard that people really like it, they fix the netcode problems with Rising. But I think that yeah, it has like a pretty dedicated core of fans. I also think if you play Uni, you probably also play Grand Blue. Like you probably are entering both, so it's a little bit of a two for one, because both of them have about 600 people.
Junae (01:11:53.637)
Mm -hmm.
Junae (01:12:04.229)
Yeah.
Danielle Rosen (01:12:12.571)
Combo Breaker. But yeah, it was a, it's a tough time. Combo Breaker barely had more people than Guilty Gear Exhaar, the last Guilty Gear, not the current one. So it's a hard time out there for Mortal Kombat, but Tekken's doing great, so you got your other game. I play some Tekken 8. I'm mostly a Street Fighter girl. I come from a Street Fighter background.
Junae (01:12:21.477)
wow.
Junae (01:12:25.893)
Okay. Yeah. Do you play Tekken?
Danielle Rosen (01:12:35.164)
funny, I was talking to somebody at Final Combat who was also kind of came in with Street Fighter IV, and we joked about how it's like an RPG where you're an 0 -9er and then you subclass into other fighting games, when Street Fighter V was dog. So I played, I played Street Fighter IV and then Marble Capcom III, and then I played V, I played a lot of V despite not liking it that much, and I played Under Night, I played Persona 4 Arena, I played, I got into Tekken with Tekken 7,
Junae (01:12:44.485)
Mm -hmm.
Danielle Rosen (01:13:02.716)
Yeah, I basically, in Dragon Ball FighterZ, basically like my niche is like very footsies based neutral games like Tekken, I mean Tekken is a 3D version of that, but like Tekken like Under Night like Street Fighter and tag anime fighters like Marvel and Dragon Ball FighterZ. I am, I like Guilty Gear, I'm not a huge Strive fan, I like the Xart a little bit more than Strive and it's, but like I think those games are really cool. I'm just not as much of a fan of whatever, for whatever reason of the like 1v1 anime fighter.
Don't know why, just not as much of anything.
Junae (01:13:35.845)
That's cool. This has been informative because like I always, I always have to ask when we meet other FTC people I'm like what else and like tell me like your roster I love to hear it because it's always like I've never touched guilty year I've touched like KOF and Virtue Fighter and things like that but like I've never touched guilty year but I've
Danielle Rosen (01:13:38.108)
You
Danielle Rosen (01:13:44.7)
you
Danielle Rosen (01:13:56.06)
Strive is a great onboard into the series. It is probably the best, easiest game to pick up. It's pretty different than the previous ones in a lot of little ways, but just from getting what the game is, Strive is probably the easiest way to get in, and is really popular based on all of the memes I see online.
Junae (01:14:13.733)
I'll have to put it on my list because I haven't tried it but I'll have to put it on my list because I even tried Them Spite and Herds. I thought that was, yeah, I love that one. That one's really fun for me to play. And Skullgirls, I tried for a bit as well too, so.
Danielle Rosen (01:14:22.684)
That game's great.
Danielle Rosen (01:14:30.908)
Yep. I am a I must call girl sicko. As a Marvel fan, I must call girls sicko, and I also like them fighting hurts for similar reasons.
Junae (01:14:38.853)
Yeah, this has been amazing. Thank you so much, Danielle, for talking to me. Thank you so much for sharing your insight and your knowledge. And I want to plug you. So tell people all of your stuff, what you write for, what you're doing.
Danielle Rosen (01:14:53.788)
Sure, yeah.
Danielle Rosen (01:14:59.132)
Sure, yeah. So first and foremost, thank you so much for having me and putting up with me just like rambling on about the games industry, the games and media industry for like 40 minutes or whatever. But yeah, you can find all the work that I do at the score esports on YouTube. I think you just type youtube .com slash score esports, or you just type our name into the search bar, you will get lots of amazing content. We have videos every single day about esports, news content.
Junae (01:15:04.485)
It's no problem.
Danielle Rosen (01:15:25.5)
big features, we've got some documentaries in the pipeline, like there's some really, really cool stuff coming. I don't know exactly when this goes out, but you know, in the coming weeks, in June, July, there is our Story of Mini -Doc series is currently running. We have a season of that going. After that, we're going to have another mini series that I can't talk about yet, but it's going to be really cool. Another old show we're bringing back for the fans. We have, and then yeah, lots of great videos every single week. We're also at the Skorri Sports on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, whatever.
If you want to follow me personally, I am, I don't use Twitter that much these days. I'm mostly in read -only mode on Twitter, but I am at underscore Danielle Rosen, D -A -N -I -E -L -L -E -R -O -S -E -N with an underscore in the front. You can follow me on bluesky. I think I am at danielrosen .bluesky .social or .bsky .social. I use that a little bit more. I use cohost a lot. I'm cohost .org.
You can find me there. And I think that's all the place is. But yeah, mostly the YouTube channel. Everything I do is on the YouTube channel. And I have a little bit of a hand in any video, in almost all the videos that go on the channel, which is a lot of fun.
Junae (01:16:40.101)
Can you give us an exclusive before we go?
Danielle Rosen (01:16:42.968)
exclusive. well I told you about this Final Combat documentary, which isn't even announced yet, but what do we... I mean, to be fair, like, we we don't really announce our project super far in advance unless it's like a really special mini -series. When does this go out? Do you know?
Junae (01:16:47.269)
Junae (01:16:56.165)
No, I pick and choose. I pick and choose when it goes out. So like if it's something that's time sensitive, I push it up on.
Danielle Rosen (01:16:58.396)
Okay, okay.
Danielle Rosen (01:17:03.932)
yeah, yeah. So nothing super time sensitive here, but I can say, so like I said, we've got Story Of coming. Given that I don't know when this is going, I will say that this weekend we have a Story Of about the streamer Tyler1. The rest of the season is Potter, the Valorant coach. Then Reggie, the League of Legends TSM CEO. And Faker, the iconic League of Legends player. Those are the rest of the episodes for the season. We've got
some cool docs in the pipeline about, you know, for fighting game fans, I'm going to be at EVO putting together a video that is going to be really, really cool at EVO. If you happen to be at EVO in July, if this goes out before then, say hi. If you aren't, don't worry about it. But I will be at EVO. We will have a really cool EVO video this year because we are sending a crew in to interview everybody and get as much of it as possible. There's an exclusive. I don't think anybody knows that we're doing EVO yet. So it's going to be really, really cool.
Junae (01:18:02.277)
I love that. I love hearing that the FGC is gonna get some love and as long as you're over there, I feel like it's gonna be continuous. So thank you so much. This has been amazing. Y 'all, thank you for listening. Patreon, thank you for watching. Until next time, you guys, stay safe, be kind, wash your hands, wash your butt, right? Other people can have opinions too, unless it's life threatening, right? So.
Let's be mindful of that, but we will talk to you guys on another episode.