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Join old friends and acclaimed artists, John Butler and Dingo Spender, for an intimate conversation delving into the creative process and narrative behind John's captivating new musical venture, 'Running River.' Settle in as they share anecdotes, inspirations, and the transformative journey that led to this ambient masterpiece. From the inception of melodies to the ethereal landscapes evoked through sound, explore the depths of artistic collaboration and musical exploration. Whether you're a long-time fan or a newcomer to Johns's work, this episode offers a rare glimpse into the heart and soul of his journey through new sonic territories.
Speaker 1: Hello, dear friends, this is John Butler
Speaker 1: and you're about to listen to a podcast
Speaker 1: called Running the River.
Speaker 1: This is a new podcast that I have put
Speaker 1: together with my dear friend Dingo Spender.
Speaker 1: He, you may recall, helped me with the last
Speaker 1: podcast I made for my album Home.
Speaker 1: Here again we deconstruct and get under the
Speaker 1: skin and get our hands dirty in the
Speaker 1: substrate soil of what I was envisioning
Speaker 1: for this latest ambient album.
Speaker 1: This is an album I made for wellness
Speaker 1: practitioners and practicers alike to
Speaker 1: defrag and decompress in this very busy,
Speaker 1: fast and quick world, and we hope you enjoy
Speaker 1: as we take you up, down and across the
Speaker 1: river.
Speaker 1: This is Running the River.
Speaker 1: Let me ask you a question, now that we've
Speaker 1: gotten through all the things we want to
Speaker 1: talk about.
Speaker 1: Is this like?
Speaker 1: What are you using to, if we're talking
Speaker 1: about?
Speaker 1: You know if the theme?
Speaker 1: Is you regulating the nervous system?
Speaker 1: and dealing with all the pressures of
Speaker 1: modern society, let alone what we inherit
Speaker 1: epigenetically.
Speaker 1: What are your practices to um create a more
Speaker 1: uh conducive life to uh uh ease and I don't
Speaker 1: know, or may not that life has to be all
Speaker 1: ease, but just maybe uh more peaceful yeah,
Speaker 1: peaceful, that's a good word.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, my my.
Speaker 2: Now you know my tools and my tool belt.
Speaker 2: Uh, breath would be my like my hammer you
Speaker 2: know, that's my go-to daily work, um, and
Speaker 2: you know I went really deep into um,
Speaker 2: ashtanga yoga.
Speaker 2: So like a fairly solid ashtanga yoga
Speaker 2: practice and you know the combination of
Speaker 2: those two, with always meditating, you know,
Speaker 2: every morning.
Speaker 2: And then my primary ways of getting through
Speaker 2: and being a kind, open-minded, patient,
Speaker 2: compassionate human being yeah, to myself
Speaker 2: and my community.
Speaker 2: And my family yeah, solid solid regime yeah,
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna be the first to say it's like
Speaker 2: I'm not nailing it every morning.
Speaker 2: I'm, you know, I hope that you know in the
Speaker 2: telling of this, there is no, there is no
Speaker 2: part of it where it's like I do this every
Speaker 2: single morning without fail, like you know.
Speaker 2: The discipline side of it, where it's like
Speaker 2: I do this every single morning without fail,
Speaker 2: like you know, the discipline side of it,
Speaker 2: is a work in progress still.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it always is, isn't it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the real thing, you know.
Speaker 1: Like one thing, I've the reoccurring thing
Speaker 1: I've heard from you know a few different
Speaker 1: meditation modalities.
Speaker 1: It's like you will lose your center or you
Speaker 1: will lose the mantra just come back to it.
Speaker 1: And how you come back to it is actually
Speaker 1: more important than actually, yes, not
Speaker 1: falling off, because we will all fall.
Speaker 1: It's a wobble, you know yeah yeah, the
Speaker 1: whole thing wobbles, yeah, the whole thing,
Speaker 1: yeah, like energy.
Speaker 1: Energy wobbles, yeah, up and down, up and
Speaker 1: down, the worth.
Speaker 1: The earth is wobbling on its axis.
Speaker 1: It's like we're all wobbling.
Speaker 1: I think the idea, I think most people who
Speaker 1: practice kind of know this, but I think
Speaker 1: it's the, you know, there's that kind of
Speaker 1: romantic um aspect to kind of the whole
Speaker 1: quote-unquote wellness world or whatever
Speaker 1: else that people see from the outside.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, it's like, when you're
Speaker 1: looking for this, some kind of utopic, um
Speaker 1: unrealistic, fantastical idea of um
Speaker 1: serenity or you know, and actually a lot of
Speaker 1: times it's there's a lot of discomfort,
Speaker 1: yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: And the tension and the release of it all
Speaker 1: it's like it's not just all about release.
Speaker 1: There has to be, yeah, sun and moon, day
Speaker 1: and night, you know, and yeah, that you
Speaker 1: know.
Speaker 1: I think, another definition of yoga it's
Speaker 1: just like the practice, you know it is, it
Speaker 1: is the journey.
Speaker 1: It's like it's not, it's not this, it's
Speaker 1: more of a way than a discipline, so to
Speaker 1: speak.
Speaker 1: That life is, yeah, it's not, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: not this, it's more of a way than a
Speaker 1: discipline, so to speak.
Speaker 1: That life is it's not like, cool, once you
Speaker 1: do this and then you do this, then it's all
Speaker 1: right, it's like, and then this too shall
Speaker 1: pass and something else is going to happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And for me it's like finding the right
Speaker 1: combination, as well.
Speaker 1: I need running in my life or skateboarding
Speaker 1: in my life to give me that burst, and also
Speaker 1: just, literally just the cardio.
Speaker 1: And then I need other things that stop all
Speaker 1: the noise and have to sit still and
Speaker 1: meditate and then the breathing, which you
Speaker 1: know.
Speaker 1: The modality that I was introduced to, you
Speaker 1: know, yeah, a year or so ago, was just this
Speaker 1: idea like you're not trying to still the
Speaker 1: mind, you're not, you're actually just
Speaker 1: trying to keep the breath.
Speaker 1: Natural.
Speaker 1: You can move as much as you want, you can
Speaker 1: think about whatever you want to think
Speaker 1: about and, you know, just lack of
Speaker 1: expectation to get it right was actually
Speaker 1: really, really great little practice to
Speaker 1: have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's coming back to that
Speaker 2: practice, which is the foundation of all
Speaker 2: these particular eastern practices, is is
Speaker 2: approaching it with kindness.
Speaker 2: You know why would I approach?
Speaker 2: Why would I beat myself up over not
Speaker 2: relaxing enough?
Speaker 1: you know why would I get stressed that I'm
Speaker 1: not relaxed enough?
Speaker 2: you know it's like it's like ah, okay it's
Speaker 2: such an industrialized way of approaching
Speaker 2: anything.
Speaker 1: I think we've been so, we've so inherited a
Speaker 1: model, and I don't know if you want to call
Speaker 1: it industrialization, capitalism, yeah,
Speaker 1: patriarchy, I don't know, whatever, give me
Speaker 1: a mixture of all of it.
Speaker 1: You know, inherited trauma, blah, blah,
Speaker 1: blah.
Speaker 1: But this idea that, like you know, we see
Speaker 1: that in the West a bit with, say, you know,
Speaker 1: yoga, for example, it's like you know,
Speaker 1: there's a, there's a, there is a small
Speaker 1: tendency or, depending on how large, I'm,
Speaker 1: not part of the culture that much but that
Speaker 1: it becomes a competition Like how much can
Speaker 1: you stretch, how long can you hold it, how
Speaker 1: bad it's, like it's.
Speaker 1: We industrialize everything, everything has
Speaker 1: to be a commodity in a competition in the
Speaker 1: west, and like and to take that competition
Speaker 1: out and be kind.
Speaker 1: You know I always, you know recall I
Speaker 1: probably said this in the last podcast.
Speaker 1: I said a lot.
Speaker 1: It's like asking a friend about how he
Speaker 1: deals with anxiety and like I'm like what
Speaker 1: do you do?
Speaker 1: I need some help.
Speaker 1: And she's like I just well, I just try to
Speaker 1: be kind to myself.
Speaker 1: And I'm just like what did you say?
Speaker 1: Yeah, he said.
Speaker 1: I said kind of like.
Speaker 1: What's that word mean?
Speaker 1: Like like I was.
Speaker 1: It was almost like he spoke another
Speaker 1: language to me.
Speaker 1: Protocol that I would kind of yeah, I've
Speaker 1: been raised with.
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that my parents weren't kind,
Speaker 1: I'm saying just this idea of oh well, first
Speaker 1: of all be kind, oh, that's all right
Speaker 1: because that's okay, but then fuck I can't
Speaker 1: do this, why can't I do?
Speaker 2: everybody else can do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, um, yeah, and and you know,
Speaker 2: when you start going the, the distilled
Speaker 2: wisdom of the masters, the spiritual
Speaker 2: masters like Thich Nhat Hanh, his, his
Speaker 2: approach, he embodies um 100%, the, the
Speaker 2: lifelong pursuit of kindness, like it's,
Speaker 2: it's an actual religion, that Buddhism he
Speaker 2: built Buddhism around to, to just keep
Speaker 2: supporting the intention of kindness to
Speaker 2: himself and community and the world.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: What year is this?
Speaker 2: Thich Nhat Hanh is like uh, he died, I
Speaker 2: think three years ago, vietnam, very famous
Speaker 2: Vietnamese Buddhist master.
Speaker 2: I'll pass this on.
Speaker 2: He's my his interpretation of um of the
Speaker 2: Buddha is like is just heaven.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Heaven, yeah Interesting of the buddha is
Speaker 2: like it's just heaven yeah, heaven, yeah
Speaker 2: interesting.
Speaker 2: And what he did with his life and that the
Speaker 2: example that his life became of kindness.
Speaker 2: It is a testament to it is probably the
Speaker 2: most peaceful action.
Speaker 2: It is beyond what he yeah, he's.
Speaker 1: He's my hero it's funny like I was saying
Speaker 1: um, we're talking about the propensity, uh,
Speaker 1: the ease in which meanness comes compared
Speaker 1: to kindness online, you know, it's like to
Speaker 1: be kind.
Speaker 1: It's probably the most radical it is and
Speaker 1: badass and punk punk thing that you could
Speaker 1: do, and actually one of the hardest things
Speaker 1: to do.
Speaker 1: It's actually so easy to judge.
Speaker 1: I heard this.
Speaker 1: I don't know who he was.
Speaker 1: I recognize him from a movie of some sort.
Speaker 1: He was doing a valedictorian speech for the
Speaker 1: graduation class and I don't know if those
Speaker 1: are the same.
Speaker 1: A valedictorian is probably somebody who's
Speaker 1: part of the graduation class.
Speaker 1: Anyways, he was doing a graduation speech
Speaker 1: as the guest speaker and he was like you
Speaker 1: can always tell who the smartest and not so
Speaker 1: smartest people in the room are.
Speaker 1: The meanest people are always the less
Speaker 1: intelligent and the nicest people are the
Speaker 1: most.
Speaker 1: And he said whether this is true or not,
Speaker 1: this isn't you know.
Speaker 1: Obviously it's a metaphor for those
Speaker 1: listening, but it's like.
Speaker 1: It's like we are wired with fight or flight
Speaker 1: and negative bias to see others that are
Speaker 1: different to us, who don't, who are not,
Speaker 1: birds of a feather to us, as a mystery,
Speaker 1: different and potential danger, whether
Speaker 1: that is sex, gender, orientation, ethnicity,
Speaker 1: color.
Speaker 1: Uh, we are wired by a lot biology,
Speaker 1: biologically, to a certain degree, to go,
Speaker 1: oh, that's different, is this a threat or
Speaker 1: you know, or an advantage, you know,
Speaker 1: whether we kind of like it or not, let
Speaker 1: alone all the social norms that then get
Speaker 1: built upon those things.
Speaker 1: He goes, and to be kind is to have enough.
Speaker 1: He's in enough of the last of our nervous
Speaker 1: system.
Speaker 1: You know the prefrontal cortex, you know
Speaker 1: the youngest part of our nervous system and
Speaker 1: to analyzing and to go, oh, but that person,
Speaker 1: just because they're a different color than
Speaker 1: me, doesn't mean they're a threat.
Speaker 1: Because that person likes that sexual
Speaker 1: orientation or because of that political
Speaker 1: persuasion or faith persuasion, that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean they're different to me and
Speaker 1: they see the world maybe differently to how
Speaker 1: I see it or have a different perspective or
Speaker 1: a different preference, but they are not a
Speaker 1: threat to me and they are no different to
Speaker 1: me in a lot of different ways.
Speaker 1: To have that cognitive practice, to be
Speaker 1: mindful enough and not a reptile, enough
Speaker 1: shows intelligence.
Speaker 1: So the meanest are actually the less
Speaker 1: intelligent, the most driven by primordial
Speaker 1: fears, and I guess what I'm making, a
Speaker 1: statement, is much as just like when you
Speaker 1: said kindness, most driven by primordial
Speaker 1: fears, and there was this always.
Speaker 1: You know, I guess, what I'm making, a
Speaker 1: statement as much as, just like when you
Speaker 1: said kindness, I'm really struck that it it
Speaker 1: utilizes our most advanced inner biological
Speaker 1: technology.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it does.
Speaker 1: Takes a lot to to love, to be kind it does
Speaker 1: when the world's driven by fear, a lot of
Speaker 1: it.
Speaker 1: To be kind it does when the world's driven
Speaker 1: by fear a lot of it and we're fed fear To
Speaker 1: bypass that.
Speaker 1: Enough to have enough regulation, fucking
Speaker 1: regulation, I mean.
Speaker 1: That's the main reason why I do it.
Speaker 1: Regulating is key.
Speaker 1: My biggest regrets, nine times out of ten,
Speaker 1: of the fact that I wasn't regulated enough,
Speaker 1: usually around the people I love the most
Speaker 1: or the people I was so wanted to be
Speaker 1: understood by you know how to regulate the
Speaker 1: fear in me.
Speaker 1: It's interesting, dan.
Speaker 1: There I was like I'm like man, I'm like my
Speaker 1: intuition's pretty spot on, my gut is
Speaker 1: pretty spot on and somehow I think she said
Speaker 1: it we both got to it's like it's actually
Speaker 1: not the intuition of the gut, it's the
Speaker 1: filter that has to go through to get to a
Speaker 1: thought form and an action.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the filter that my thoughts go
Speaker 1: through are survival and negative bias, so
Speaker 1: I'll get a fucking smell on something like
Speaker 1: something's not right.
Speaker 1: And then the filters it has to go through,
Speaker 1: which are going to be mixed with my trauma
Speaker 1: and my predispositions and everything else
Speaker 1: that I've inherited, either psychologically,
Speaker 1: physically, epigenetically, culturally.
Speaker 1: Psychologically, physically, epigenetically,
Speaker 1: culturally.
Speaker 1: It has to go through all that, all those
Speaker 1: biases, to then pop out.
Speaker 1: The other side is and this is what I think
Speaker 1: about that, or this is how I'm going to
Speaker 1: respond to it yeah, and I just find that
Speaker 1: really interesting that you know, yeah, you
Speaker 1: can have a great intuition, but if it's, if
Speaker 1: it's been translated through an app that
Speaker 1: has trauma bias- of some sort it's going to
Speaker 1: come back as defensive.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's the same way when they talk about AI
Speaker 1: or the internet.
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, first of all it's not
Speaker 1: artificial, nor is it intelligent to a
Speaker 1: certain degree.
Speaker 1: First of all, it's not artificial.
Speaker 1: It's completely coded by us and all our
Speaker 1: bias our cultural and our racial bias and
Speaker 1: our political bias and you can see that
Speaker 1: online as we speak.
Speaker 1: And nor is it very intelligent.
Speaker 1: Sometimes, you know, like it's how we
Speaker 1: choose to filter and what the input and the
Speaker 1: data points that are coming in are just
Speaker 1: data points and it's like.
Speaker 1: It's like almost that kind of that Zen
Speaker 1: things.
Speaker 1: It's just stuff happening, it's just life.
Speaker 1: There's no meaning to any of it.
Speaker 1: And then we're us meaning making machines,
Speaker 1: we process it in this hardware and what
Speaker 1: pops out the other side can be anything
Speaker 1: from make America great again to uh, I
Speaker 1: choose not to eat any living animals to.
Speaker 1: You know, I do not understand that.
Speaker 1: That race or that religion and how we
Speaker 1: program, how we choose to regulate.
Speaker 1: That I find interesting.
Speaker 1: You know, by no means to anybody listening
Speaker 1: do I think I have any of the answers.
Speaker 1: I'm just profoundly struck by the filters
Speaker 1: in which we choose to take this data in.
Speaker 1: Yes, and then the narratives that we build
Speaker 1: them into, that create our realities.
Speaker 2: Absolutely what I'm imagining, or you know
Speaker 2: what I, the way I interpret that is through,
Speaker 2: you know it's actually going back to
Speaker 2: another buddhist.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm really into'm really into
Speaker 2: Buddhism, but it's the way I I'm regulating
Speaker 2: as well through that technology of Buddhism
Speaker 2: and it's the concept that how you label it,
Speaker 2: how I label it, is how it appears.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm creating, and the more
Speaker 2: conscious I am of my labeling style um,
Speaker 2: habit, habit, passion, it is not not
Speaker 2: passion, pretty suspicious, yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2: Predispositions on it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the more I am afraid of being at the
Speaker 2: mercy of that or like a victim of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, filtering, you know, the more, the
Speaker 2: more I'm conscious of how I'm filtering and
Speaker 2: and all.
Speaker 2: It only requires a consciousness, it
Speaker 2: doesn't require anything, it doesn't
Speaker 2: require me to like even labor or effort.
Speaker 2: What I want my new filter to be, at that
Speaker 2: point, the just, even the recognition of
Speaker 2: what is already there is incredibly
Speaker 2: liberating, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, when you actually realize I wrote
Speaker 1: that.
Speaker 1: Oh, I just made that up.
Speaker 1: I think's where, if it's related back to
Speaker 1: anything we're talking about, I keep on
Speaker 1: wanting to say here's a bit of
Speaker 1: predisposition.
Speaker 1: I'm always trying to protect myself and so
Speaker 1: I want to say to keep on saying to
Speaker 1: everybody we don't know what we're talking
Speaker 1: about, we're just jamming here and you know,
Speaker 1: we're just taking a bunch of evidence that
Speaker 1: we've collated and some things work for us.
Speaker 1: They may not work for you, but the you know,
Speaker 1: yeah, framing, you know how we choose to
Speaker 1: frame.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just like it is the end all and
Speaker 1: be all, and again, that's what I was.
Speaker 1: I found myself again.
Speaker 1: Is that, and that's, I think, why we do the
Speaker 1: practice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that maybe in a glimpse, in a
Speaker 1: fucking mere little glimpse, you're like,
Speaker 1: oh, I just made that up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, I just made that.
Speaker 1: Like I had enough distance from the canvas,
Speaker 1: yeah, to observe myself, you know, to be
Speaker 1: the observer for five seconds.
Speaker 1: I think that's what the practice like
Speaker 1: allows, and usually for me, probably,
Speaker 1: because how much I practice when you know
Speaker 1: is, I get glimpses mm-hmm and I'll sit
Speaker 1: there and watch this person yeah, who's
Speaker 1: myself and and what they're saying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, hanging up the clothes, and I should.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, yeah, it's like and
Speaker 2: that's what are you saying.
Speaker 1: You just know, and I've actually said it
Speaker 1: out loud hey to myself, hey myself, hey,
Speaker 1: you made that up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because what will happen is stories
Speaker 1: are so important to me and to, I think, us
Speaker 1: as human beings we're built off stories.
Speaker 1: They can instantly, for me, I'm really
Speaker 1: noticing cause a chemical reaction in my
Speaker 1: body.
Speaker 1: If I get a good enough story, I get scared
Speaker 1: or I get moved in some way.
Speaker 1: I have a predensity to protect myself be
Speaker 1: scared.
Speaker 1: It's fight or flight.
Speaker 1: So I interested in just instantly start
Speaker 1: making more cortisol.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I, all of a sudden I'm finding a
Speaker 1: chemical reaction in my body that literally
Speaker 1: I'll come down from, like I'll have to,
Speaker 1: like I have to take a walk, yeah, and wait
Speaker 1: until I'm sober, yeah, from this chemical
Speaker 1: infiltration.
Speaker 1: That's just from a thought yeah, from your
Speaker 1: own thought.
Speaker 2: Yeah, not even from a thought planned by an
Speaker 2: external party, not even a real thing
Speaker 2: generated.
Speaker 1: We're wacky we're great, it's amazing, but
Speaker 1: I think it's what the practice is allowed.
Speaker 1: You know, in some way another I guess it's
Speaker 1: just those brief moments of like oh, that's
Speaker 1: narrative, that's not real.
Speaker 1: And I think once you start looking at life
Speaker 1: a little bit that way, that's when things
Speaker 1: can almost feel a little bit unsettling at
Speaker 1: times because you're like, oh, this is a
Speaker 1: collection of narratives, yeah, yeah, oh
Speaker 1: shit, yeah, I think it's kind of what
Speaker 1: happened to jim carrey a little bit, like
Speaker 1: he kind of had this great point of view
Speaker 1: perspective on himself and everything else
Speaker 1: and it's like what's canadian mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what's jim mean.
Speaker 1: I mean, really, it's a frame, it's an idea,
Speaker 1: it's a good agreement.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is that who I am?
Speaker 1: Like he can really start going.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's great right out there.
Speaker 1: A little bit as far as yeah, all the things
Speaker 1: are yeah I like.
Speaker 1: I like that it allows just a little bit of
Speaker 1: spacing between me and that narrative to
Speaker 1: see maybe there's an author and do I choose
Speaker 1: to actually want to go on that?
Speaker 2: story right or not?
Speaker 1: a little bit more choice a little bit more
Speaker 1: choice no-transcript.