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Tap to send me your reflections ♡ My good friend Susan McCulley is back on the show. And this time we're talking about the tough stuff. Author, somatic movement coach and artist, Susan brings a breadth and depth of wisdom, knowledge and personal experience to every conversation and this episode is no exception. We look at the topic of Tough Stuff from many perspectives. Exploring the importance of going gently with ourselves when things FEEL hard - and the importance of facing into ...
Tap to send me your reflections ♡
My good friend Susan McCulley is back on the show. And this time we're talking about the tough stuff.
Author, somatic movement coach and artist, Susan brings a breadth and depth of wisdom, knowledge and personal experience to every conversation and this episode is no exception.
We look at the topic of Tough Stuff from many perspectives.
Exploring the importance of going gently with ourselves when things FEEL hard - and the importance of facing into and taking action to navigate the things that are hard to DO. Some of the areas we cover include:
We finish with Susan's beautiful enquiry: 'How can I make more space for what's needed right now?'
CONNECT WITH SUSAN
For movement, books & art https://www.susanmcculley.com/
For women over 50 https://www.susanmcculley.com/women-over-50
REFERENCES
Dr Andrew Huberman - the 'source' of the will to live
Stephen Covey - 7 Habits of Highly Successful People
James Clear - Atomic Habits
***
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A space to settle in and listen, and see where the episode takes you. This inspiring, reflective podcast is an invitation to travel deeper, with compassionate self-enquiry.
Henny shares insights from her own life, alongside practices that help us connect with our inner wisdom, explore our relationship with change and find a greater sense of flow. Henny believes we all hold our own answers, so there are no one-size-fits-all solutions here. This is a space to be with what’s true for you, and to grow from there.
If you’re drawn to slowing down, listening in, and exploring what it means to live with greater authenticity, this podcast is for you. Guided by psychology, mindfulness, therapeutic coaching, flow journaling, and everyday compassion, we explore ideas that help us step further into our inner worlds, in order to shape the changes we seek in our outer worlds.
Henny Flynn: It's been quite a
while since my good friend,
Susan McCauley has joined me
here. And every time we talk, we
have a wide and far reaching
conversation. And today is no
different. Today we're talking
about the tough stuff. We're
talking about the being witness.
And we're talking about the
doing this of the tough stuff.
We touch on neuroscience. We
touch on compassion, no surprise
there. And we look at what it is
that can really support us when
we are facing into things that
feel hard.
Welcome to the Henny Flynn
podcast, the space for deepening
self awareness with profound
self compassion. I'm Henny, I
write coach and speak about how
exploring our inner world can
transform how we experience our
outer world. All founded on a
bedrock of self love. Settle in,
and listen and see where the
episode takes you. So hello, my
darling.
Susan McCulley: Hello, honey.
Oh, so great to see you.
Henny Flynn: Yeah, it really is
really is. And as ever, I think
our conversation feels like it's
coming at a good time for the
both of us. Yeah. And I, I often
find with the podcasts that I
might have a plan about, you
know, to sort of to record an
episode about something. But if,
if I'm not feeling it, then I
can't do it. It just doesn't
mean just doesn't work. It
doesn't flow. Whereas today, I
think as we opened up the call,
both of us acknowledge that
we've got some tough stuff going
on. And this conversation
hopefully will be useful for us
as much as it is for everybody
listening.
Susan McCulley: Yeah. Yeah, the
tough stuff. It comes. It comes.
Sometimes it feels like it comes
in waves. But um, yeah, it's not
avoidable. And, and finding ways
of, as we were saying, both
being with those difficult
things, and acting both both the
action and the presence with
whatever it is that we're
facing, or trying to change or,
or wanting to do differently. Is
there they're equally important,
and, and they, and I think
they're a little bit they're
different skills. They're two
different skills. Yeah,
Henny Flynn: yeah, definitely.
And I think we'll make sure that
we, I mean, I My sense is
they'll probably weave in as
we're talking anyway. But it
feels really important to make
sure we're talking about both of
them because sometimes sometimes
I think we can get so caught in
the skill set of the doing Enos
of the tough stuff that we can
try and use those same skills in
the being witness of the tough
stuff. But actually, those two
skill sets like you say there,
Yeah, different.
Susan McCulley: I mean, I don't
know about you, I, I can use the
doing to avoid the being with
you. I mean, Brene Brown talks
about this, that there are
people who are there they're
over, over over performers or
over compensators or something.
They're the one who's like, the
wheels come off, and they're the
one it's like, okay, you do
this, you do that I'm gonna do
this and we're gonna give each
DGG and it's totally me. Okay,
what's your strategy and what
who's responsible for what and
and I think that there is
something to that, but I often
like skip over that how do you
feel about this thing that is
happening and and given that I
maybe we start there is that
when we are faced with something
that is difficult, whether it is
some kind of difficult news a
loss, or is something difficult,
like this is something you
either want to or need to do.
That is not something you
exactly want? Do you want to do,
right? There's something that
you feel some, like, I know I
have to do this. I was saying
that my example is my strength
training work. I have a
osteopenia diagnosis. So due to
strengthen my bones, I'm doing
strength training, I love to
move, strength training. I feel
a little mad about it. In every
morning, I'm like, I've got to
do this thing. And again, how
can I be present with how I feel
about it? What is in the
emotional landscape. But before
I do the whole strategy,
Henny Flynn: you know, this is
so interesting, because that is
such a beautiful example, I
think of where the being witness
overlays the doing this, because
it would be very easy to get
into a kind of very fixed,
shutdown kind of mindset, and
just just get on with it, you
know, the stiff upper lip, the,
the, you know, what we sometimes
might consider resilience. But
let's we'll talk about
resilience. Let's do that.
Because I think, yeah, there's
like a whole load in there. But
you know, that sort of stiff
upper lip thing. Whereas if we
actually acknowledge what might
be what might be sitting
underneath any resistance, yeah,
could be about really
understanding Well, what, what
is it that this is making me
think of? So a really lovely
example, could be many moons
ago, I used to work in financial
services, and one of the things
that is notoriously difficult to
do is to get people to save
money. Now, the challenge is
that when you talk about
pensions, most of us
unconsciously think of death.
And so, when you talk to someone
in their 30s, or in their 20s,
or 40s, about saving for their
pension, what you're actually
talking to them about is death.
And most of us don't want to
think about death. And so we
don't want to think about
pensions. And so we don't want
to save money because if we're
saving money, we're saving money
for when we're old. And when
we're old, we're going to die.
And so you have these like on
heard, or unseen messages
sitting underneath, so for you
any kind of lighten their
resistance might be like it's
because I really don't like the
fact that I've got osteopenia,
and I don't like the doctor for
telling me that that's what I've
got. And I don't like the fact
that my body is like doing this
to me and like Ella
Susan McCulley: lewdly
Absolutely. That's so
fascinating about the money
saving thing I've never thought
about that way. But that's
that's so make sense to me. And
and isn't there both in my
resistance and in the clients
that you're talking about?
There's there's some ageism
there, right? There's some
assumptions, there's stories
that we have about what is going
to be happening when I'm in on
my pension or what does it what
does it a woman who has
osteopenia look like oh, yeah,
you know, like are like what
kind of life so many things as
you say they the these under
undercurrents, unseen or
unspoken, beliefs, stories,
images that were like, No, thank
you. Yeah.
Henny Flynn: Yeah. And actually,
I mean, I mean, hadn't, hadn't
even thought about as kind of
coming into this conversation
from this direction. But it
feels like we've really tapped
into something there because so
often, the thing that will be
preventing us from looking at or
facing into the tough stuff will
be the stories that we're
holding about it. You know, we
we scenario build around things
we hypothesise we make
assumptions we catastrophize and
Susan McCulley: I'm a we're off
to a world class at that. Oh,
Henny Flynn: well, you know,
it's that there are lots of lots
of people competing with you. So
Susan McCulley: I don't know, I
don't know.
Henny Flynn: So what we're, what
we're also kind of talking about
here is how to how to be really
clear about what is what is
going on for us underneath the
surface, raising that self
awareness or deepening that self
aware Tennis, so that we're
aware of what might be stopping
us from facing into the stuff
that we find hard. Because often
it's not the actual thing. It's
not saving money. You know,
unless unless money is very,
very tight. Saving money, per se
isn't the thing that's hard. But
thinking about who am I going to
be? When I'm older? That could
be hard? Yeah.
Susan McCulley: Yeah. Yeah, I
love that. And, and while the
action of a dressing, the hard
thing can have, for me anyway, a
sort of a certain satisfaction
to it, and, and there's science
about it, and all of that kind
of thing. The presence is at
least part of what can help us
really see all of the aspects of
what this issue is for us. And,
and I think that that the
resistance is a great like
little signal. And Seth Godin,
who's written lots of books
about changing things, says that
to rush the resistance, when you
feel the resistance, it's like,
oh, there's something here, as
opposed to what I usually do.
I'm like, I'm out. I got the
resistance in my mouth. But I
always love this. I remember
this feeling of like, you know,
there's something to be done.
Like, there's something
important here, if you're
feeling resistance. And, and so
I think it is a place to start
for sure.
Henny Flynn: I love that. I love
that idea of rushing the
resistance, like so really like
coming towards it. So Oh, yeah.
For me, it would be it would be
the language of like, well
welcome it in, you know, what is
it that you want me to know?
Like, what's going on here?
Yeah. Because, yeah, it's in
there that the you know, the
gold is in terms of like, what
we really need to understand
about what's going on. Right.
Susan McCulley: And I know that
you, I mean, you do marvellous
work with journaling, which can
be a way into these kinds of
things. I've been playing
recently with Liz Gilbert's
practice of letters from love.
Have you have you experimented
with that at all?
Henny Flynn: I I think I
naturally do version of it.
Yeah.
Susan McCulley: Yeah, I would
say so. Yeah, I you, you don't
need lists. I do. But but it's a
very simple practice. But really
what it is, is tapping into
what's underneath both the fear
or the story or the
catastrophizing, but also the
wisdom and the perspective. And
the, the broader vision because
so often, when we're faced with
difficult things, is that our,
our viewpoint just contracts to
the most narrow thing. Yeah,
like just the we can just barely
see through the crack in the
door. And, and what, what you're
proposing here, this, this, this
willingness to be present, and
however, we support ourselves in
that presence, I mean, maybe
it's talking with a friend, but
sometimes I just find myself
battling or you know, identity.
But yes, for me, often writing
is very helpful to uncover these
things.
Henny Flynn: I think sometimes
when we talk with a with a
friend, unless unless they're
really skilled at helping us
navigate our own ability to
convince ourselves and other
others of what we think we want
to hear, we can we can end up in
a little bit of an echo chamber.
Whereas what I find with
journaling is that my journal
rarely lets me off the hook.
Channel is, you know, she's
like, Hmm, I really think you
could look at this from a
different perspective, even
though you don't want to
Susan McCulley: and then she can
also and she can also bring some
real love to and
Henny Flynn: she's doing so much
love. I mean, it's just done
with so much love. Yeah, so my
my technique that I tend to use
when I'm in that tough stuff
place, and I don't know, I don't
know what to do with the
resistance that I'm feeling is
and I think this is quite
similar to the Liz Gilbert
approach, but I will say IE, are
you there? And my diary always
replies. I am always here.
That's right. And then I say,
What am I here to learn? And
then she says, What would you
love to know? And then I'm and
then that conversation and it's,
it's funny, because I kind of
like I keep sort of wondering
like, is this going to change
one day like these words that I
write? But so it's not like a
script. It's just well, that's
just what happens. And it it
hones my attention on Okay,
well, what is the thing? What is
the thing rather than? You know,
the kind of blanket I feel a bit
lost or I feel bad or right.
Susan McCulley: Yeah, I think
there's a there's a big
difference. i There were many
years where I had a very
unsatisfying journaling
practice, when it was just sort
of my monkey mind on the page,
and like, this is going in this
is happening and this is bad and
and how can they How could this
person do this? And it never got
me anywhere. But what you're
proposing and which you're
absolutely right, very in
alignment with Blizz Gilbert's
standard prompt is writing to
love and and using the prompt
love. What would you have me
know today? Yeah,
Henny Flynn: it's very similar.
Yeah. And,
Susan McCulley: and there is she
also offers that if there is
something in particular with
which we are grappling, you can
say love, what would you have me
know about saving money today?
And, and it can allow, but and I
totally resonate with this
feelings? Like, what is going on
here? Like, how is it that I am
getting this, these insights and
this wisdom? What is happening?
I don't know. And am I making it
up? Where is it coming from? You
know, but there it is. And it's
like, I my, whatever my left
side of my brain, I guess goes,
What's going on? And my right
side is this Hush now. It
doesn't matter. It is a moot
point.
Henny Flynn: I love it. I love
that that part of the brain that
goes like, am I just making this
up? And it's like, well, yes.
Susan McCulley: Or no. And but
Henny Flynn: it's like, I mean,
like on one level? Yes. On one
level. You're You're channelling
from, you know, from a spirit
beyond. Who knows, really
doesn't matter. Just start
writing. Yes, please. Yeah. It's
that. Yeah. You could call it
wherever you like. But yes, I
love that. I love that point
where we start questioning, but
actually then bringing the
questioning into the journaling
is exactly
Susan McCulley: and yeah, my
journal always has a little
chuckle over that.
Henny Flynn: So it's, and I
think it's really interesting
that this your example of like,
journaling from the monkey mind,
because actually, when we're
thinking about the tough stuff,
often what will happen when
we're in that, that sort of that
part of our mind, which is
ruminating on stuff in the past
or or catastrophizing about
stuff in the future, when we get
stuck in, as you say, this kind
of very narrow focus, and we're
actually with narrowing down our
ability to think creatively
about how we're actually able to
resource ourselves to deal with
more difficult things. So the
more we can do, to kind of
soften I think physically to
soften, mentally to suffer and
emotionally to soften enables us
to be with what is going on
without. So I'm just going to
call off hang on a sec. Without
without condoning something that
someone else has done that was
very problematic or without
saying rose tinted spectacles on
every blue rose happening, you
know, it's not about that. So I
think a big part of this. This
being witness is also
acknowledgement and that
obviously is what journaling can
help us with to is helping us
acknowledge Well, this is hard.
I shared with you at the
beginning we've got some some
stuff going on. And you know, we
A needing to say we're sort of
within my kind of family unit,
we're needing to accommodate
what that means. And the hard
thing is when you're not in
control of what of everything
that's going on, and not being
in control, his really difficult
for many of us. And the because
the the flip of the other side
of the either we're desperate to
be in control, or we're
desperate to have no control, in
which case either side of
control is really hot. Yeah. But
there's a I think there's a
lovely exercise from Stephen
Covey, which is the circles of
control.
Susan McCulley: Circles are of
influence maybe no. Well,
Henny Flynn: so he might talk.
Yeah, he might call it circles
of influence. Yes. And I think
over the years, I've adapted it
to such a degree that I now call
it circles of control.
Susan McCulley: Let's go with
that. There we go. Yeah.
Henny Flynn: And so the idea is
that you you draw a big circle,
that is all the things that you
can control, and a smaller
circle, which are all the things
that you can't control about a
certain situation. And you write
down everything that you can
control and everything that you
can't control, you can't control
the weather, but you can control
what you're wearing, you know, I
mean, you even get it down to
like, those kinds of details.
And, and then you see, will,
this big circle, that's where
I'll spend my energy. Because
all the stuff in that little
circle doesn't matter how much
energy I invest in it, it's not
going
Susan McCulley: to be right.
That's exactly right. It's the
Serenity Prayer, right. It's
like, it's that that wisdom of
just differentiating? And, um,
and, you know, I think the bear
is our brain so long to be able
to contain and control. And yet,
we know that we have control
over. So little, really, I mean,
when we talked to hear talking
about the circles, I was like,
maybe the I can't control
circles would be the bigger
circle. Since there is so much
that I can't control and at but
that is such a great reminder
about how much of myself do I
want to sink into all of these
things.
Henny Flynn: It's interesting,
though, Susan, because actually,
when you start breaking down
what I can control, and you say,
we might not be able to control
the macro conditions around us,
like the systems that were put
in, you know, so the health
system or the financial, you
know, the banking system, or the
world, you know, crises that are
around us. While they, yes, our
macro conditions that are big.
There are also so many aspects
of our internal landscape, our
internal weather that we have
more control over than we might
initially ordinarily recognise.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think
this sort of comes into that the
stuff we were talking about
earlier, which is, you know,
about the kind of doing this as
well. So part of part of being
able to support ourselves with
tough things is about
understanding, well, where can I
make changes where can I
exercise agency? Yeah. Yeah,
and, and another thought, which
has just completely flown out of
my head, so I'm handing back
over to you.
Susan McCulley: Well, I think, I
hope it I hope it returns but,
um, but um, I think that that
really is a great segue into
once we have given ourselves the
time and the space to be with
the question that I often ask
myself is, what is my capacity
right now? To both both to be
with but also to effectively act
in regards to this issue. And
and Do what I often play with
is, is sort of just check, is it
sort of just checking in? To see
how am I really? Do I really
have? What I need in order to
deal with this? Or do I need to
give myself a little space? Do I
need to build my capacity in
some way, whether it is taking
care of myself in some way,
getting good night's sleep, I'm
getting some support, times 1000
For however, that whatever that
looks like for each of us, in
order to then start to make some
choices about action, and how do
we proceed with the actual doing
around the things that we can
control? And, and so I think
that one of the things that we
can tune into, is what we, we
sometimes call it, I think the
feeling of being overwhelmed, or
feeling like I sometimes feel
like like my circuits just get
jammed, like, and that can look
lots of ways it can look sort of
frantic, it can also look
Henny Flynn: numb. Yeah.
Susan McCulley: And when I'm
feeling like, this thing is too
big of a bite for me to take
right now. One of the things
that works well, for me is to
say what's a small thing I could
do? What is a tiny thing that I
could do, that I could have some
agency over, that I could move
the needle as it were, toward
whatever needs being done. And
so whatever it is, if it is
managing some difficult health
news, does that mean? What I
need to do is I need to find one
article to read. So I can
understand something that I
didn't understand before. Maybe?
Or maybe it's if it's a habit
that needs changing, you know,
like, what is this just making
it really small. From the brains
perspective, if we contrast this
sort of overwhelmed, the
circuits getting jammed, we
break it down into this little
thing, it's kind of like you
sneak in around the back door,
around your amygdala, amygdala,
it's all ready to just like fire
off sirens. And, you know, shut
the whole system down, kind of
do a little thing and you kind
of get around the sweet. She
just wants to protect us back a
little amygdala. And so um, so
this is some of the genius of
James clear writes about it in
atomic habits. BJ Fogg did
research called Tiny habits,
it's, you know, it's the same
neurological mechanism that
we're, we are using, when we do
something really small.
Sometimes they call it just
embarrassingly small, like
absurdly small, you are able to
begin to stretch your capacity.
Henny Flynn: And then you also
get a reward from them, of
course, so then you get a little
bit of a dopamine or maybe a
serotonin hit coming into your
system, which then helps to
rebalance the cortisol or the
adrenaline, or maybe the
testosterone that might have
been firing up before. And it
just makes your body feel a
little bit happier, you know,
we're in when we're dealing with
someone who's got sort of high
anxiety, often, you know,
particularly if they're, they're
feeling very anxious about maybe
going to a shop, you know, going
into shops is a really tough
thing for them. What we're
looking to do then, is to find
the evidence to show well,
you've been you went to a shop,
when did you go to a shop and it
was okay. And you're reminding
the system, you're reminding the
amygdala that actually, it's not
going to every shop, that makes
that means that they need the
amygdala needs to fire up. So in
the same, it's using the same
kind of strategy. It's saying,
well, here's a small thing.
Here's a small win. Here's
something that just can start to
reset some of that pattern. that
might be wanting to get
established. And those, I think
making those small changes, as
well as one of the series of
retreats around, which turned
into the book, the heart of
change, one of the retreats and
one of the chapters in the book
is called Beautiful disruption.
Because I realised that I was
becoming, so I had become so
kind of fixed about certain
things having to be a certain
way. And if they weren't a
certain way, it really threw me.
So sitting in the right seat on
the train on the way to work,
very important. And what I
started to do was disrupt with
these like small steps. And it
was only after then learning
what I now know that I realised
what I was actually doing was
exactly what you've just
described, which is putting
those little changes into place.
And through that, teaching, my
limbic system, that it was safe,
to be doing things a little bit
differently, it was safe to be
making these changes, and and
that then, obviously, enables us
to start making bigger and
bigger.
Susan McCulley: That's right,
that's right. Yeah, I mean, it
is just like, a muscle is just
like, you know, expanding your
range of motion, physically,
you're expanding your range of
capacity. mentally, emotionally,
Henny Flynn: I love that. I love
that use of the word capacity.
Because it's also there's
compassion in there as well,
about recognising, you know, my
capacity is pretty low right
now. And that's okay. That's
right. And, and actually, today,
I, I because of some of the, you
know, ongoing stuff that you
know, every every person has
stuff in their life. That's
tough. And, you know, I am no
exception, you are no exception.
Everyone listening is no
exception. And it's kind of I
noticed that it was, I was
feeling it today. And rather
than do what I might ordinarily
have done in the past, which
would have been plough on
through it, and just get grumpy
and irritated and irritating,
probably, I took myself to my
seat in my office and worked in
a different way worked on
something else, there's still
work, so was, you know, use my
time usefully, but did it
differently. And that was
because I recognise that my
capacity for doing what I had
planned to do just was not
available to me, I needed to
refill in some way. And that
was, what worked for me. Yeah.
And so also kind of recognising
what works for us individually,
I think is really important
here. Yeah.
Susan McCulley: Yeah. And I like
what you're saying too, in the
sense that, that beautiful
disruption does not have to be
an earthquake, it can be just
moving across the room. Exactly,
Henny Flynn: exactly. And so
yeah, so for me, like when I was
because this was when I was
first, like playing with this
whole idea of beautiful
disruption was when I was still
commuting into London. And so
one of the things I would do was
I try and take a different route
to work each day, rather than
the head down, charging along
whatever street it was in the
City of London, and ignoring
everybody, or I'd try and see
something new that became I then
sort of play with that for a
bit. Like each time I walked
along the same street, like
what's the new thing? And that
was a tiny piece of beautiful
disruption that I now recognise
was probably having enormous
benefit in my very tired brain.
Yeah. So it just shifted,
shifted the dial. Yeah. It's
interesting, actually, this
stuff, talking about brain. I
know, I mentioned to you before
we came on those. I'd heard
Andrew Huberman, Dr. Andrew
Huberman, who if everybody
listening if you haven't heard
him talk, I think he is amazing.
He's a neuroscientist
specialises in eyes. I think. I
think like that's his, like,
deep deep specialism is the
neuroscience of sight or
something like that anyway, but
he is a incredibly well informed
guy who, who is on a mission to
bring neuroscience into
mainstream knowledge. And he
shares things so eloquently, I
think. And I, I came across him
talking about the source of
willpower. And he actually ended
up saying that some
neuroscientists are now seeing
this part of the brain as the
source of the will to live.
This, and it's the had to write
this down, which I'm going to
say wrong, anterior mid
cingulate cortex. And it's the
part of the brain that's
activated according to whether
something is hard as in
effortful, or not. So back to
your point around lifting
weights in the morning, do your
strength training in the
morning. If that is something
that is effortful for you, you
will be activating the anterior
mid cingulate cortex. And the
more that that grows, the more
it benefits you. So being
persistent, learning something
new, feeling good about
yourself, this is interesting,
are all affected by this part of
the brain? Yeah, it controls
self control, decision making.
And resource distribution, which
I think taps into your point
around capacity. It's
strengthened through hard
physical activity. So there's
sort of correlations here
between, you know, physical
exercise impacting our emotional
and mental well being. Because
it, it makes us more determined
to keep going. That's part of
what this part of the brain
does. And amazingly, it is
associated with preventing age
related decrements or
decrements. I don't have to say
that word in cognitive
performance. So basically, it
keeps our brain functioning
healthily for longer into old
age.
Susan McCulley: So is it kind of
it's a kind of learning. It is a
it is neuroplasticity is what?
Yeah, is
Henny Flynn: happening? Yeah,
it's neuroplasticity, like
happening like, in, in such kind
of real time.
Susan McCulley: Yeah. Yeah.
That's fascinating. And did I
hear you also, I just wanted to
circle back to this. That
feeling good, like celebrating
what we have done. Acknowledging
that, I think that is just worth
highlighting. Because, for me, I
am such a to do list person and
I and I, like Okay, done it. But
instead just taking a minute and
saying, way to go. You did your
squats today, darling. You
wrong? And how important that is
for for expanding our capacity,
and giving ourselves that feel
good bump. Yeah, that's what the
Dr. BJ Fogg talks about, too, is
that people change when they
feel good, not when they feel
like
Henny Flynn: brilliant. Yes.
Yes. Because oh, gosh, I mean,
when I think I know, we're sort
of we're kind of weaving in and
out of this, this sort of topic.
But when I think about when I
was growing up in as a, all the
way through my adult years, had
a you know, at times, I will be
heavier at times lighter. rarely
ever looked on myself, whatever
weight I was, and felt good
about the weight that I was, but
what never, ever helped me with
people saying you will be so
pretty if you just lost some
weight. Because, you know, I
think I kinda had worked that
one out. Right? And actually, is
that really the message that we
want to be? I
Susan McCulley: mean, we can
even I've, we've got a whole
conversation about fat phobia
and misogyny and how they
intersect. darlin, we're gonna
have to just put up pin and not
wear because there's a whole
thing. And so I just want to
acknowledge how painful that is.
And yet how, at least many of us
internally will be so hard and
so mean. And so be reading to
ourselves, I think, with this
idea if I don't, I'm not going
to change if I don't like, crack
any. And, and, and what the
science shows us just exactly,
Henny Flynn: exactly, exactly.
And the because we we grow up in
a maybe in an educational
environment or a home
environment where where we're
told off. And that is meant to
be the precursor to being doing
better at something, whether
it's behaviour or maths, you
know, whereas actually sports
think about before. Oh, yeah,
exactly. Whereas, I mean, it's
the reason why all of the work
that I do, and it's so I find it
so fascinating, Susan, because
it's like, as I move through the
years of me doing this work, and
I gather more and more knowledge
to myself, the fundamental
principles that have underpinned
everything that I've done right
from the beginning, that
compassion is the foundation
says self compassion is the
foundation stone to all
successful and long lasting
change. I have never come across
anything that tells me any
different. And all I see is more
and more and more evidence that
tells me that fundamental
knowingness was right. And
continues to be right. Yeah, you
know, if and so this kind of
comes back to this thing about
the tough stuff, you know, when
we're thinking about, you know,
either facing into something,
which is really hard to
acknowledge, if we do that with
self compassion and kindness to
ourselves, that is going to,
it's going to feel easier, it
doesn't change the thing, but we
will feel easier. And in the
same way, when there's something
tough that we want to do, like,
make a big change, or change a
habit, or change your job, or
you know, whatever the thing is,
that might feel hard, or might
feel effortful, or scary. If we
do it with compassion, it
doesn't change the actions that
we take, it doesn't change the
fact that you're gonna get up in
the morning and lift your
weights and do your squats. But
the attitude that you bring into
it could be utterly transformed.
If it's with self compassion.
Yeah,
Susan McCulley: yeah. Yeah. And,
and, and that, I part of that,
is this, this examination of
capacity? Like, you know, how
are you doing, my friend, as we
get up this morning? How did you
sleep? How do you feel, you
know, and, and allowing for the
softness, rather than the
rigidity around? Well, I'm happy
to do it exactly this way, as
you were saying, you know, in
order for it to be to count or
to be good enough. And, and so I
think that, you know, part of
what we're talking about, is
this kind of softness, this,
this broadening of how we look
at all of these things. That is,
you know, is instead of the
razor focus on this one thing,
how can I open this up and, and
create more space for whatever's
needed right now?
Henny Flynn: That feels like a
lovely, lovely line to close our
conversation on actually, Susan,
how can I make more space for
whatever is needed right now.
And loved that conversation so
much. I think Susan and I both
said, just before she, she
headed off that it was a
conversation that she and I both
needed today. And I hope that
there were aspects of it may be
even the whole of it, that felt
useful for you to and I'll share
in the notes, some of the
references, the ones we can
remember that we touched on
during the recording. And I
really look forward to hearing
how this idea of facing into the
tough stuff resonates with you,
but also the learning that doing
the tough stuff can be really
good For us, how does that
balance for you? How does that
make sense in your own life?
Where do you see that you can
use those that awareness of that
neuroscience that from Andrew
Huberman way you can use that
awareness that doing things that
are effortful is ultimately
really good for us. But balance
that out with the compassion, of
softening into ourselves when
we're facing into things that
feel tough for us. So, you know,
I'm very mindful as well as
ever, that this stuff can
activate feelings, thoughts
within us, maybe old stories,
old memories. And, you know, if
there's anything there that you
feel you would benefit from
exploring more deeply, then do
reach out to me, or to someone
else that you trust. And perhaps
consider what would benefit you
in working that through and also
do reach out to Susan as well.
I'll share the link to her age
of becoming group if you're if
you identify as female and
you're over the age of 50. I
think that's where her group
begins, then you might be
interested in the age of
becoming group on Facebook. It's
a really lovely space where
Susan shares some of her wisdom,
her philosophy and also shares
the the movement practice that
she offers as well. And I know
there are a number of people
listening here who have
participated in Susan's
practices so under including
myself, so definitely go and
check that out if that makes you
curious. All right, my darlings.
Take care. I send you a hug and
a wave