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Led by Eileen Dunn, a seasoned clinical psychologist and psychoanalyst, The Art of Listening explores the transformative power within the space between speaker and listener. Join us and our guests on this collective journey of self-discovery, as we navigate the depths of human connection and the power of listening.
Eileen: [00:00:03] My name is Eileen Dunn, and this is the final episode of the Art of listening. I'm a psychoanalyst, a clinical psychologist, and above all, a lifelong learner fascinated by the process of what goes on between us as speakers and listeners when we dedicate ourselves to the practice of depth therapy. Throughout this series, we've invited a range of guests to discuss the power of listening. Some of them were old old friends. Others bright lights in our field and some I was just meeting at the time we launched this podcast. All of them share a passion and a commitment to their profession, and all personify the human to human relationship that helps us heal and grow. Together, we rose to the challenge of a novel experiment. This podcast, another listening medium which promised to tackle the big questions at the heart of our profession. How can a discussion between two people facilitate the most personal transformations? What makes depth talk therapy so powerful? How did our unique life experiences lead us into this profession? Why do we change when we encounter each other? And can we all learn from practicing the art of listening? In short, we tried to answer the question us therapists here all the time. How do you do that? And so we shared our stories, our life journeys from deep feelings to philosophical thoughts and spiritual discoveries. We told you what we live for and for us, that's no small thing.
Eileen: [00:02:09] So much of our work happens behind closed doors. The privacy and confidentiality of therapy requires it. With exceptions, we can't and don't talk about what we do or how and why we do it. We keep our experience safely protected. But with this podcast, we built a new platform, a new kind of space to share. Each episode opened a conversation as intimate as our work and as public as a forum can be, and together we considered what we learn every day as we practice the art of listening. So today, for this final episode, it's my turn to share my story, to reflect on the experience I've had, communing with my guests, and to draw conclusions from our conversations. Join me as we wrap up this collection and define one last time what makes the magic of therapeutic listening? And to begin, well, we need to go back to the start. You heard it in this podcast at the beginning of every episode, we opened with a question. How did you come into this work as clinicians who train long and hard for a vocation and go on learning for our entire careers. How did we come to do what we do? The reason we ask this question is that we all have a back story, a seminal life experience, a personal trajectory that drew us to the study of feelings more than an interest. Our curiosity for the work of the mind is often a deep seated need.
Eileen: [00:04:09] A desire to understand the suffering inherent to our lives and the growth that can emerge from it. I'm no exception to the rule. I was born into a three generation family business family in Washington, DC. I was one of four siblings, the only girl and the youngest by ten years. As a child, I fell in love with every single member of my family. Each of my parents and my three older brothers. When things in our home became rocky, when a hurt started to form that would last a long time, I clung to my eight year old feelings like a raccoon on a raft in a thunderstorm. I wanted my father to stray away from depression and to feel secure. I wanted each of my brothers to feel supported and to come into their own. I wanted my mom a proud, beautiful and shy woman, to feel truly content as a second generation immigrant family. We lived like lace curtain Irish Americans and cared to be seen that way, but it was the shanty Irish way of life that lived in our hearts between pride and shame, security and insecurity, competition and cooperation. These contradictions defined our family bonds. Speaking for myself, I felt the responsibility of being the only girl at 16, when my mom cried night after night about the fate of her family. It felt like my load to console her.
Eileen: [00:06:01] My dad gave me a seat at the dinner table. Our family business boardroom, for all intents and purposes. And there I watched as discussions brought on ruthless critiques of my brothers above all, each in their turn. Scared the hell out of me. Witnessing this as a child, I grew further into my sensitive nature, and my identity, which was still forming, became woven with the need to control my own mental life, or at least to try to keep hold of something that felt out of my grip and headed for the falls. By the age of 20, I was trying to escape my reality. My solution then was to enter the cloistered monastery where I had attended high school. I lasted about nine months. Then I had to leave or eject, as I often say, for fear of losing my mind. So much for control. I will say that the nuns were lovely, and their contemplative way of life has stayed with me always. But what I learned with time is that I wasn't going to become myself by trying to save or flee or convert my nuclear family. Building then, on the impact of my earliest experience, I pursued the study of theology as an undergrad, and while I still felt drawn to the spiritual path, I felt the hunger to delve deeper into understanding the developmental human point of view. So I changed direction, and I earned my doctorate in clinical psychology and worked in a broad range of settings before I launched my own practice in 1995.
Eileen: [00:07:48] All along, I have been searching for the way to live my contemplative life, and so that is what the practice of depth therapy is for me. A sanctuary within and between us where we can search for the truth together. I guess what I mean to say by sharing this story is that behind the clinician, there is always a layered person with a very specific and subjective history all their own. Where we come from and how it's the root of our practice in the art of listening. That's the first lesson I hope you'll take away from this podcast. Once we know our reason to be, we can start delving into the true magic of listening, which lands us on another natural question what is the one most crucial ingredient that makes listening so important? What is it that touches us emotionally? Soothes us, feeds us, enlivens us, inspires us even? To answer this, I'd like to return to one thing I mentioned before this fascination with pain that we grapple with in our profession when it comes to emotional pain. The experience of suffering, however mild and perplexing or intense and tortuous. It's what makes us know that we are human. It's built in. And so we can't eliminate it. Sure, we can relieve it temporarily, but what listening offers is a way to work with the pain through the pain, to live with it, to learn from it.
Eileen: [00:09:43] Thanks to the human connection. Feeling genuine empathy, experiencing the generosity and the humility of another person who is interested in our experience without taking it on or over it can soothe us. So the work of talk therapy, or clinical work, as we call it, it's a dynamic relationship. It's an i-thou relationship and not a paint by number exercise, as our very own Nancy McWilliams would say. During the therapeutic session, we make an encounter human to human. We search together for meaning. We reconcile unique experiences, which sometimes include the feeling of being misunderstood, patience, support, imagination, and above all, love love of the process. These are components of the therapeutic encounter, and the love I'm talking about is neither romantic nor sentimental. It's what goes with the act of caring. It's the exercise and the promise that we will grow session after session. That's what makes listening so powerful. Now, having said this, in the therapeutic space, the focus is not just on the relationship between therapist and patient or speaker and listener. We're here first and foremost for the patient, the client, whatever we want to call it, to help the person connect or reconnect with who they are at the heart of themselves. So how do we establish this connection? Well, I'm sure you know what my answer is.
Eileen: [00:11:36] It's all about feelings and feelings. Well, there's simple and complex all at once. As professional listeners, we learn to listen beyond the storyline, beyond our patients politeness, their mindless autopilot response, or the all purpose justification they give others every day. Oh, but you know what I'm like. Yeah, that's okay, I don't mind. Our role is to see through and understand how we all disguise our feelings. And as I've learned, there are reasons we split ourselves from what really goes on inside. It's a question of control. I know this all too well. You know, being in control or out of it, feeling like things happen to us that we don't get to choose. It's heavy when someone else sees our struggle, when an open mind makes themselves available to listen and attend to us, we feel the support we need. Suddenly, we feel the more full and nuanced reality of our feelings. It's something we can't do for ourselves, so feelings need to be acknowledged. We can't calm down or push through an uncomfortable situation, especially one that lives deep inside us without having been heard. And this is what actually happens in the therapeutic hour. A showing and a seeing. A speaking and a hearing. A mutual acknowledgment. Respect. Appreciation. Speaking often enough for the very first time as we really are, and actually feeling registered, not in competition with anyone else. Our feelings are not right or wrong.
Eileen: [00:13:31] They never were and they never will be. They are the DNA of who we are. And if we haven't had enough, if we feel that we're missing something, we need contact. So really, as therapists and patients, what we do is not noble. The moment shared between us is thoughtful and free of judgment. And this is not virtue. This is practice. And sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't. In the actual encounter between us, where one subject meets another, we become aware of who we are and what makes our subjectivity. We collide. We align again and again, and in so doing, we learn. We develop as individuals and as members of the collective. So that's the third takeaway. Our emotions, our subjective experiences, they're what make us individuals, and we can connect with ourselves and others through the truth of these feelings. In the therapeutic moment, we make a connection, and that is a sharing of what we're feeling in the present. No more and no less. Having said this, there is a tension between being in the present moment and doing the work. We know that there is a time to plant and a time to uproot. In the therapeutic hour, we reveal our contradictions so that we can identify new roots and think about it. And then we change. So how do we know when it's time to be and when it's time to do? One of the lead inspirations for this podcast was the work of Linda michaels.
Eileen: [00:15:43] Her approach to taking action is one I've long admired in my experience, when it comes to depth, insight and relationship, the hardest thing to learn is how to see and appreciate the experience of resistance. How do we approach change? How do we make contact with the patient? Who knows they need help but is afraid of or doesn't know how to allow it? Then the hardest thing of all is to not act when there's resistance. The act of listening is to sit and stay and wait. Not producing ideas, not finding solutions, not even speaking words. Because. And this is the thing, words can be essential for communicating ourselves. Exactly, yes. But as Mark Soames said it so well, they can also keep us from feeling and hearing what is really going on, emotionally listening within ourselves, listening to someone else. That hinges on our capacity to trust the process. As Gloria meyers Beller would say. To know that something will come through eventually when we both mean to be there. We must remember that while we can't rewrite the past, we can see and feel ourselves in our true feelings. By listening and exploring the space between us, we connect in the therapeutic hour. And in this way, we can experience a new moment fueled by our old constellations of thought, memory and feeling, and driven by the present moment.
Eileen: [00:17:37] We can release the hold we have on what once was. Let go of the hold it has on us and be free to genuinely engage our creative selves. This is how we go from being to doing. In many ways, this brings me back to a thought I love from German philosopher Hannah Arendt. It goes something like. Genuine action doesn't know its outcome. By that, I believe she meant that fully engaged action is open to what might, could or will happen. It accepts that we can't predict the result of our actions. And this answers another question inherent to the wisdom of listening. How do we know when we are being truly open, that we can receive the counsel we seek? How do we stop clinging to and leading with fixed assumptions and expectations? My answer here is openness. Not knowing yet. Diving in fully. And again, this goes back to feelings. When we follow our inner voice, when we express new thoughts and ideas. We can freely find and create our true sense of self. Above all, therapy is about giving in to our profound nature, allowing ourselves to evolve organically and accepting that we are our own answer. And so you see, being open means letting go. We can't hold on to control. We can't exhaust ourselves saying, if I just will it hard enough. If I just insist just one more time.
Eileen: [00:19:39] It doesn't work that way. When we let go of the idea that we know best. When we open ourselves up to possibilities, we can start accepting that our life doesn't ask the impossible. We can be free to embrace how our existence turns us naturally towards what we most desire, our highest purpose even. It's critical to grieve the past, really engage with it in order to let it go. Look at the parts that did not serve or that hurt indelibly. Observe the history you didn't control and won't, and then do something creative and constructive with the fruit of the experience. The relationship between letting go and discovering is amazing. Things are as we feel and perceive them. No one and nothing has more power to affect us than us. For me, this podcast was one big way of taking action. It has been a deeply satisfying and relieving and celebratory creation. A true life experience through which I discovered new worlds with my colleagues who so generously shared their ways. The final and important lesson I wish to draw from this podcast speaks to the beauty of collaboration in a different way. It answers one last question what can we humans do for each other that substances techniques, template protocols, or even technology simply can't? What makes the human encounter so powerful? Well, first let me say this. While the human experience is limited, while it comes with its flaws and frustrations, there is something in the connection we build with each other that is heartfelt, generous and intelligent.
Eileen: [00:21:57] The bonds we share with others make us feel alive. They keep us moving. They help us heal and grow. And in a world that moves fast, so fast where we try to meet our issues with technical solutions, we We must never underestimate or forget the power of the human to human encounter. Now this connection between us is not a one size fits all. The chemistry we feel with another person is unique and it matters. There are endless combinations of people, but you need your people, and your people can stand by you. They can try to think and feel and believe for you when you're not quite there for yourself. They can share your delight as you learn. And don't get me wrong, non-human tools like medication or technology can be helpful. Sometimes they're the only available option to soothe ourselves. But they are limited answers. Finding the key to our minds and our hearts and our souls. This. This is good personal work that takes human time. As Mark Solms also said it well mistake the method for the subject, not your method is your way to get where you need to go. Who you are is found along the way. It takes emotional work with intent to go the distance. It takes learning that we are our own character, different from the people and the circumstances of our early beginnings.
Eileen: [00:23:45] Plants of all different shapes and sizes make a garden beautiful, and this in itself is the reason we survive our suffering. Because we can discover ourselves. We can find our way to the pilot light within us. In fact, it's the whole reason we're here. You just need to figure out how. So this is the final lesson. No one and nothing can substitute for the transformative power of the human to human connection. It's one that was affirmed in conversation through the experience of this podcast and with my colleagues who did me the honor of joining me here. So in the spirit now of honoring them, I want to thank one last time about the art of listening in their way. It's the encounter, says Emilio. It's the spark of joy and beauty, says Sara. It's the never forgetting there, but for the grace of God. Go I, says Koichi. It's the trying to understand, says Nancy. It's the trust in the invisible, interactive, ongoing and going process, says Gloria. It's the respect for justice, says Enrico. It's the sobriety of empathy, says Dan. It's the following. And trusting the conversation will take you, says Jonathan. Of course it's the care of ourselves, says Jaime. It's the gentle and persistent invitation, says Justin. It's the awareness of our mortality, says Marty. It's the song of contact, says Paula. It's the honor of vulnerability, says Dhwani.
Eileen: [00:25:48] It's the whole person, says Joanna. It's the multigenerational truth, says Chris. It's the feelings. It's the feelings, says Mark. It's the font of universal creativity, says Rosa Aurora. And of course, it's it's all about action in and through all of that, says Linda. So when I when I think about the riches. And appreciate how we've all learned together and learned with this process. What is the art of listening in treatment? Beyond treatment? Well, there's the ever present moment. There's the shared humanity, and there's a point of contact. That's the art of listening. This has been the art of listening. And for the last time, I'm your host, Eileen Dunn. I'd like to thank the team at Lower Street for helping me bring this podcast to life. Writing and production together with the astute Jackie Lamport, the attentive Daria Lawson and the effervescent Lise Lovati, interviews, notes, edits and narration by yours truly. Sound design by the masterful Alex Rose. And now let me thank you, dear listener, for coming on this journey with me. It means more than words can say. If you liked the podcast, share it around so that this collection of voices goes on. Living in the podcast space. To stay in touch, you can subscribe on Spotify, Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. Or you can also leave a review and write to me at dreileen@eileendunnpsyd.com