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Join us on this episode of the Count Me In Podcast as Adam Larson sits down with Aaron Levine, the CFO of Prophix, to explore the evolving role of CFOs in today's dynamic business environment. Aaron shares his journey from controller roles at public software companies to leading the finance and accounting departments of several venture and PE-backed businesses. He offers insights on overcoming current challenges in the software space, building trust within teams, and the importance of data governance. Listen in as Aaron discusses hiring strategies, the impact of AI on accounting roles, and the unique experience of working at a company that serves CFOs. Packed with practical advice and candid reflections, this conversation is a must-listen for finance professionals and business leaders alike.
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IMA® (Institute of Management Accountants) brings you the latest perspectives and learnings on all things affecting the accounting and finance world, as told by the experts working in the field and the thought leaders shaping the profession. Listen in to gain valuable insight and be included in the future of accounting and finance!
Welcome back to Count Me In. I'm your host, Adam Larson, and today, we have an incredible guest joining us, Aaron Levine, the CFO of Prophix. Aaron brings a rich career experience across various industries within the software space, including roles leading financial strategies and education, nonprofit, and restaurant tech sector. In this episode, Aaron shares his journey and insights into the evolving role of the CFO. We'll explore the importance of building trust, tackling data governance challenges, and the transformative impact of AI on finance.
Adam Larson:Aaron will also provide valuable advice on team building, effective communication, and balancing risk and innovation with a fast paced environment. This conversation offers a wealth of knowledge in optimizing finance functions and preparing for the future of financial leadership. So sit back and join us for an engaging discussion. Let's dive in. Well, Aaron, I'm really excited to have you on count me in, and we're gonna be talking a lot about the evolving role of the CFO.
Adam Larson:And you, you know, who work, as the CFO at Prophix, you know, a company that, you know, gears toward the the CFO. You know, maybe we can start by talking a little bit about what your journey to becoming the CFO of Prophix. I know it wasn't your first time.
Aaron Levine:Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for having me. I'm happy to happy to be here.
Aaron Levine:Excited to talk to you. Yeah. My career has been, you know, a pretty traditional finance and accounting career. I started my career really on the accounting side. I was the controller of 2 public software companies, in controller roles.
Aaron Levine:One of them was a company called Blackboard. Blackboard is a learning management system, for higher higher ed. Many people know of Blackboard or have used Blackboard in in college. So I was the controller of Blackboard for many years. And then I pivoted my career to more of the finance side.
Aaron Levine:I was the VP of finance at another public software company called Vocus. Vocus is in the PR and marketing automation space. But I've kinda done both, you know, both sides in in in finance and accounting. I always tell people, you know, I have I've posted journal entries. I've done, you know, account reconciliations.
Aaron Levine:I have done, you know, budgets and forecasting. I feel like I've kind of done, you know, done it all, inside the office of the the CFO. And those experiences have led me now to 5, CFO roles of really venture and PE backed, software businesses. I've been in like I said, I've been in software my whole whole career, but I've been in different industries inside of software. So I've mentioned I've been in education.
Aaron Levine:I've been at a, a nonprofit, company that sells into the nonprofit space. I've been at a restaurant tech, company. I've been in cybersecurity. Now, obviously, I'm selling inside of the office of the CFO. So I've been at many different, you know, industries.
Aaron Levine:I've also been at, companies with different go to market motions. So I mentioned Vocus. Vocus was, SMB sale. So it was a transactional sort of high velocity, go to market motion. I've also been in businesses that sell big, you know, enterprise, 7 figure deals.
Aaron Levine:So kind of, done the spectrum in terms of go to market motion as well. But, yeah, happy to be be at profits now. It's pretty pretty fun, you know, being at a a business, like this, which obviously I'm very comfortable with.
Adam Larson:Yeah. And, well, so you've got a lot of experience in software, but with all the different industries, would you say that throughout your different times, you know, has your role as CFO changed, or has it are you doing the same thing just in a different industry?
Aaron Levine:No. I always say software is software. Right? It's it's, same movie, different actors.
Announcer:That that's why I always
Aaron Levine:say it. So it's you know, whether it's nonprofit or EdTech or, you know, was it a a customer success business? Right? So it's really, you know, a lot of the same issues, a lot of the same challenges, you know, for companies of of of that size and scale. So
Adam Larson:So what are some of those big challenges that you are facing today as a leader, especially in the the software space? Like, what are some of those big challenges? Because, you know, there's tons of, you know, special words or or keywords or hot topics that I could throw at you, and I'm sure you could talk about those things. But what are some of those biggest challenges that, you know, you see us face as a CFO today?
Aaron Levine:Yeah. Yeah.
Announcer:You know, I
Aaron Levine:think we're at an interesting time just as a human human race sort of in terms of of, where we are. You know, today's political climate obviously is supercharged and all the social media stuff. And so I think generally, not just for CFOs, but for leaders in general of of businesses as as well. I think there's a general sort of lack of trust in the environment. So I think leaders today, you know, really forming, you know, the level of trust, right, with your peers, with your customers, with the board, is is very, you know, very important.
Aaron Levine:You know, and trust is built obviously in different different ways. I think as a CFO, you know, trust is really built by, you know, being open and honest with with the the board, the c suite. Right? Our our role is to sort of, you know, bring it all together and kinda read out the read out the results. And I think, you know, the way we do that is is, is important.
Aaron Levine:You know, there's certainly an art art to it. Right? I mean, news is not always always good news. You know, you obviously wanna highlight, you know, the positives, but I think, you know, putting a spotlight on some of the negatives or some of the challenges of the business is is super important as well. So, you know, I think building trust is kind of a key key leadership challenge today.
Aaron Levine:But, look. We're all just, like I said, we're all just humans, and and, you know, I think these business relationships are, you know, similar to other, you know, personal relationships that you have. Right? Everyone's got relationships with friends and family, and, there's a certain human aspect of it. And I think sorta, you know, digging into that that human aspect is is really important as a as a CFO.
Adam Larson:So as you're as you're looking to build the right team around you as a CFO, you know, you talk about building trust. And a lot of times when you're hiring new people, you have to kinda establish that trust quickly. You know, how do you build how do you find those right people, especially when there's a there's a there's a gap in getting people into the accounting teams today?
Aaron Levine:There absolutely is. You know, I think it's it widens. Right? I think I feel like Mhmm. Hiring today is harder than it was, you know, 20 years ago when I when I started.
Aaron Levine:So I think, you know, look. There's tons of research and and discussion about why why that's hard. Right? I mean, I think, accounting in particular is not seen as a, you know, cool kind of sexy sexy role. But, Yeah.
Aaron Levine:You know, as you are trying to to hire and recruit people and and sort of bring people into the industry, I mean, I think it's really important to to, move away from that narrative. Right? I mean, finance and accounting is cool. It can be sexy. Right?
Aaron Levine:I think the role has, obviously, you know, the role has evolved. Right? We're we're no longer reporters of data. Now we we, you know, our role is much broader. Right, finance, particularly CFO, you know, other than the CEO.
Aaron Levine:Right? We have a unique view on the business. Right? We we kinda see all the pieces, bring it together. And it's our role to sort of analyze and report report out on it.
Aaron Levine:And it's more than that. And more than just analyzing reporting out, our role is really to drive the business forward. So it's like, hey, we see something, and then we work with the business to to to action it. Right? And and and and sort of, you know, whether that be, you know, changing a process or, you know, dealing directly with with product issues, you know, my role in particular.
Aaron Levine:Right? I have a unique perspective on the product. Right? So I think that the finance role is is much broader. And, you know, when you're hiring people, articulating that role is is is really important.
Aaron Levine:But look, I mean, hiring finance people is like hiring, you know, other other folks. Right? I think today, people look for flexible work, you know, like, arrangements, I think, which is which is very important. Here at Profix, we spent a lot of time, you know, highlighting our commitment to diversity and innovation. The role and the the industry has changed so much and continues to evolve.
Aaron Levine:Really fostering a environment of continuous learning and personal growth is super important. So, you know, I think these are all just other sort of, you you know, benefits that that are important to articulate to to candidates. But, but more than that, like I said, it's just really painting the picture of what this role, can be and and should be and and will be for for candidates.
Adam Larson:I can imagine how difficult it must be, especially in something as fast paced as, like, a SaaS type market where, you know, there's constantly things you have to stay on top of the technology. Do you do you ever see, like, that potential candidates are nervous to come to a technology company like that?
Aaron Levine:Yeah. I I I do. I think I think so. Right? I mean, so, you know, people have different, you know, risk, you know, tolerance levels.
Aaron Levine:Right? I think so technology companies can be seen as more more, you know, risky than than others, and some of them certainly certainly are. But, look, you know, my career, like I said, has been mainly in in in public companies and more private equity backed businesses. And and while those businesses, you know, can certainly, you know, have challenges, I think, you know, pretty pretty stable stable businesses. But, you know, for for for, people who who value, you know, stability, you know, I think, venture backed and and smaller software and technology companies may not be, you know, the place for them, but but others thrive in in that environment.
Aaron Levine:So, you know, yeah, you gotta find find the fit for for people. Right? We're all we all have different different, different preferences, for sure.
Adam Larson:Yeah. Every candidate who comes isn't necessarily gonna be their best the best person for you, and you you as the leader have to kinda sort through the things like that. That's part of the role as being a CFO. You have to look at resumes.
Aaron Levine:Exactly. That's exactly right.
Adam Larson:So when looking at the whole you call it the office of the CFO, and I I don't hear it called that very often, but I like that term, the office of the CFO. What are some of the biggest challenges in the environment today for the for CFOs?
Aaron Levine:You know, I think the biggest challenge, the number one challenge really is, is data, data governance. You know, today, there's data all over the place. And tech stacks have evolved just so much over the last decade. Right? There's tons of tools on the sales and marketing side, accounting and finance.
Aaron Levine:We have our own tools. Right? We have ERPs. There's Mhmm. CRM.
Aaron Levine:So there's just data everywhere. Product, services, they all have their own tools. So the biggest I think, really, the number one biggest challenge is sort of getting a handle on on all of this data and then bring it together, preferably in 1, you know, one platform, and really, you know, bring it together in a single source of truth. Right? I think, you know, we've all been in meetings where, you know, sales comes with, you know, their their own, you know, PDF with their numbers on it, and then finance has their numbers.
Aaron Levine:And, you know, you spend half the meeting arguing, you know, about whose numbers are right and and trying to reconcile, you know, those numbers. So, you know, that that really is the biggest the biggest challenge, I think today for for CFOs. And, look, I think also, you know, the the finest accounting is back office. Right? We're we're g and a, so we are also, you know, resource constrained.
Aaron Levine:Right? I think today's environment, EBITDA is is, much more in focus for for businesses, and cash flow. So, you know, we we are resource constrained. So, that ties back into the data, sort of data consolidation and the importance, right? Because the better job we do sort of getting our handle, your hands around the data and getting it in a central repository with a single source source of truth and a central set of numbers, right, the the more efficient we are.
Aaron Levine:And, you know, the the, when we think about tools, you know, automation is also key. Right? I think, you need a tool that will will help, you know, centralize data and and automate automate processes, right, to to to find efficiency. So, you know, those are a couple of really the biggest, I think, biggest challenges today.
Adam Larson:Yeah. And I can see how it permeates just beyond, you know, for all companies because all organizations are struggling with this. And I've seen different articles where people think that IT should be within the finance function. It should be under the CFO. You know, what are your thoughts on that type of thought?
Adam Larson:Because I've seen it work both ways, and I don't know, you know, what the better thing is. I think the CFO and the IT director need to be connected very closely. But should they report to each other? How does that work? What do you think about that?
Aaron Levine:Absolutely. I think regardless of the actual lines on the on on org chart, I think it's really important that they're connected very closely. I've managed IT before. You know, personally, I'm not an IT. Right?
Aaron Levine:I'm a I'm a finance guy. Right? So when you start digging digging down into IT, I personally think product and r and d is a better better place for that to sit just because I think they have a little more hands on hands on knowledge of some of the issues they face. But
Announcer:Yeah.
Aaron Levine:Like I said, regardless of of where it sits, I think, you know, really having that that relationship and just being sort of tied at tied at the hip, is really important. And, again, you know, that's where trust. Right? The trust has to has to come in and and, you know, you have to work work together to bring bring data bring data together. It's it's just key.
Aaron Levine:It's really the biggest honestly, it's really a lot of my time today is spent on on on just doing that. Right? I mean, it's working with these different teams and and and, you know, sort of bringing bringing the picture together, bringing the data together, and then reporting back back to them. And, you know, you do that enough, and you build enough trust. And and, you know, they they, you know, become reliant, you know, they rely on on the finance and accounting organization, and and everybody's sort of marching from the same, you know, same song sheet.
Adam Larson:Yeah. So we can't have this conversation without talking about AI in some way because it's changing how we all look at our jobs, how we all let our work. You know, when you think about AI, how is it changing your perspective as a CFO?
Aaron Levine:Yeah. Yeah. Look at me. I'm a big big proponent of AI. I think it's, you know, it's here to stay.
Aaron Levine:I think it's it's, it's a tool. Right? Just like Excel is a tool. I think AI will be a tool that we all we all use. And it's just amazing how this discussion has accelerated, right, over the last, you know, 12 months.
Aaron Levine:Right? It's just it's just incredible. You know, when I think about technology, I think back. I started my career in public accounting. And late nineties, in public accounting, we we still, we had audit paper.
Aaron Levine:Like, we had physical, like, audit workbooks and paper. We used to have these big columns, and I wanna get when we get too long on the paper, we would actually fold fold the paper over and tape it tape it together, and you put it in the binder. Like, it's just amazing to think, you know, how how this discussion has has evolved so rapidly. So, look, like I said, AI is here to stay. I think we're in the early innings of of AI.
Aaron Levine:I think there are some, you know, use cases. They're they're, you know, obvious sort of, inside of finance and accounting. You know, things like chatbots are are are becoming, you know, much more, impactful. You know, in terms of account reconciliation, that's a great, you know, use case. Right?
Aaron Levine:I think auto matching is kind of you know, it's been around, but I think that's getting, getting better. And I think, you know, a lot of account recs will rely on on AI. You know, here at Prophix, we have a feature called report insights within our product. And what it does is it does the, line item, narration. Right?
Aaron Levine:So it'll kinda draft, variance explanations. Right? So you have budget actual. It'll kinda take the first stab at writing out, you know, the the the explanation for for the variance. And it's pretty good.
Aaron Levine:It's not, you know, it's not it's not perfect. Right? But I I think it gets you, you know, gets you on 3rd base. Right? It gets you gets you there.
Aaron Levine:And I think, you know, it's it's it's, the team's job to sort of beef it up and put the human human touches on it. But, you know, a lot of the things like just the calculations and a variance explanation. Right? A variance explanation usually starts with, you know, r and d is up, you know, x $1,000,000 and y percent over the prior year. Right?
Aaron Levine:So I think just, you know, saving someone the time from, you know, getting their calculator out and, you know, calculating that percentage and putting it in the, the variance explanation, you know, it just just, you know, saves time. So, again, you know, as we're resource constrained, I think AI becomes much, much more important. And, really, what it's gonna do is it's gonna free up free up resources to do the fun stuff. You know? So say, you know, maybe some of this, you know, new new functionality gets us to, you know, 2nd or 3rd base.
Aaron Levine:And, you know, it's the team's, the team's job, and it'll be that human touch, which which really kind of brings it brings it home. Right? And, usually, the first, you know, the first getting to 50 yard line is, you know, the the harder part. Right? Scoring scoring the touchdown, and that example is is the fun part.
Aaron Levine:So, I think, broadly speaking, I think finance and accounting folks are sort of, you know, they're they're, smart people. Right? We are very analytic, you know, analytical in our thinking and, and, you know, using that skill set and and, you know, those resources to sort of, you know, drive business outcomes and and analyze analyze versus versus, you know, reconciling and putting data together is really, you know, what the role, is gonna gonna evolve into even more.
Adam Larson:So those calculations that you're talking about, a lot of those things are traditionally handled by your entry level people. If those calculations are gonna be handled by AI, you know, particularly AI going forward, you know, what's are we imagining, like, new entry level type positions for accountants going forward?
Aaron Levine:It's a great question. Look. I think entry level people. Like, a lot of these people are, you know, it's 1st 1st, 2nd job, you know, out of school. And I do think it's really important to have that foundation.
Aaron Levine:Right? Like, understand, you know, where these numbers are coming from. You know, understand, you know, sort of how it how it comes together, understand, you know, how to do an account rec, you know, on their own. So I think that is, that is a piece that, you know, will be important for for managers and and leaders to sort of, you know, reinforce, the foundations. Right?
Aaron Levine:That's just kind of foundational, you know, finance and accounting stuff. But, look, I mean, these are bright, you know, bright, bright young people coming out of school. And, you know, I think it's it's exciting for them to, you know, be spending their time, you know, like I said, you know, involved in the business, involved with the different functional areas, of the business. Right? You can have someone focused on, you know, a certain certain, you know, project inside of, you know, the go to market function, right, and supporting that that project from a finance perspective.
Aaron Levine:So I think it just sort of, you know, elevates elevates us, you know, us all and elevates the role. But but I do agree. You know, I think I think there's, you know, there's a there's a risk there that, you know, some kind of fundamental, key skills will will be you know, won't be developed as well as they had had in the past.
Adam Larson:Well and it also goes back to, you know, where people are getting their original education. Our our college is teaching them those foundational things. And then when they go to when they go to their first job, you know, maybe they're not applying it the same way that their their predecessors did, but maybe they're analyzing it in a new way, and they're able to advance themselves faster because they're learning things on the job as opposed to just kinda inputting numbers quickly.
Aaron Levine:That's right. That's right. That's right. Look. I think the college curriculum has changed, you know, drastically.
Aaron Levine:You know, kids today come in with, you know, far better, you know, tech skills than than I have. You know, I I, you know, I see kids whipping around, you know, in Excel really, really, you know, well, and they know, you know, they know the formulas, and they know a lot of the advanced functions. So, I I I agree. I agree with that.
Adam Larson:Yeah. It'll also be interesting too because as this next generation is coming up, if if if I was in college when these chat g b t things are out, I mean, I think I would have been a lot lazier because I'm like, oh, I can get help. Let's get me started and I can rewrite it. You know? And so I think they're gonna have to find creative ways to to be more creative as opposed to letting the AI start for them.
Adam Larson:Because a lot of it, you know, we started with a blank page, but in today's world, you don't necessarily have to start with a blank page with the tools that are out there.
Aaron Levine:Yeah. Yeah. No. That's that's right. I mean, I think these are these are these are, you know, not just to finance an accounting issue, but just sort of issues, you know, this this generation coming up in the workforce.
Adam Larson:Mhmm. So if you were to stand in front of a host of, like, 300 CFOs from around the world, you know, what was what would be the advice you'd give them in saying, hey, guys. This is the things you need to have to be the best CEO you can today. It's a loaded question.
Aaron Levine:Yeah. I mean, look. You obviously talked a lot about technology. We talked a lot about, you know, data and being comfortable with data. And, so I think, you know, obviously, you know, that that is a key key to becoming, you know, an effective, you know, CFO today.
Aaron Levine:I also talked about communication. I think that is, you know, increasingly important for for CFOs and and Mhmm. Role and especially with how the role has has evolved. You know, like, I think business is is is tough. Right?
Aaron Levine:Business, everyone thinks they're a genius and, you know, can solve it all. But really a lot of things in business are, you know, are out of your control. Right? So
Adam Larson:Yeah.
Aaron Levine:I think one thing that is in your control, and this is what I always always tell folks, one thing that is in your control is is speed and the speed in which you you work and speed in which you make, make decisions. So, you know, bad news does not get better over time. Right? It's it's not like a a fine wine. Right?
Aaron Levine:I think, you know, having data at your fingertips, being able to decision, and action quickly, is imperative, today. And I think it's really competitive advantage for for for business. And and, it's it's really critical for CFOs to sort of drive that that that mindset and that that that style. So Mhmm. Now you make, keep the balls, you know, keep the ball moving and, make decisions with the best information you have.
Aaron Levine:And and, you know, you kinda correct correct as needed over time, but, speed is speed is critical today.
Adam Larson:Yeah. Speed is critical. But you have to do speed in the timing that works best for you, because you can't go too fast where you overlook something. Right? So you have to find the speed that works best for your organization.
Aaron Levine:That's right. That's right. And and different organizations, again, have different kind of cultures and and risk tolerances. But, you know, broadly speaking, I do think moving with urgency Mhmm. Speed, with the best data you have, you you know, at a given time is is is really, like I said, a competitive advantage.
Aaron Levine:So
Adam Larson:Definitely. Do you find it it different working for an organization that is a company that is a that has a software that's catered toward people in your position? Is that a is that a weird thing? What's it like working for that type
Aaron Levine:of an organization? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's really cool.
Aaron Levine:You know, personally, it's really cool for for for me. And I tell folks that they're profits. Right? I am I am our ICP. I am our ideal customer profile.
Aaron Levine:Right? I've I've like I said, I've kinda done, done on the accounting side, done on the finance side. So, yeah, for me, it's been great. You know? I I, I I spend a lot of time with our product team.
Adam Larson:Mhmm.
Aaron Levine:You know, thinking about, you know, features or or sort of, you know, ways we can make make the the product, you know, more more usable for for the end user.
Adam Larson:Yeah.
Aaron Levine:And we're always the guinea pig as well. Right? The finance finance team and the accounting team, we're always the guinea pig as as we roll new new features and functionality out. So, it's a really cool role. On the go to market side as well, I find myself, you know, sort of, you know, doing things like this.
Aaron Levine:I find myself talking to a lot of customers and and talking through, you know, my experiences, and how we use we use the product and and, you know, giving, you know, tips and tips and tricks on on profits. And and, it's a really cool, you know, cool cool role for for me.
Adam Larson:Well, and being at the front end of a technology company who's utilizing it for your function, I your team must have to be very agile to say, hey. We're gonna try out this new feature this week. It might not work, but let's give it a shot.
Aaron Levine:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We try to be. I mean, we're like everyone else.
Aaron Levine:You know, we are also, you know, have a lot of work to do and our Yeah. Source, you know, constrained. So, we do our do our best to be the, the guinea pigs, like like I said. But, look. I'm really, you know, excited about where we are as a as a business.
Aaron Levine:We're rolling out a lot of cool stuff. As an example, we just rolled out. I talked about account recs. We rolled out an account reconciliation module.
Adam Larson:Mhmm.
Aaron Levine:We have have used it as a as a as a team. I love it personally. You know, I'm a big proponent of it. I think, most, you know, mid market, and, you know, upper mid market and lower enterprise businesses are probably still doing account recs manually, you know, in in Excel. Right?
Aaron Levine:So I think, you know, additional, you know, products like that that we we we roll out and, offer to the to the, to the customer base is is a win for for for everybody. Right? And and having it all in the same platform. Right? So we've got if you have one platform where you can do your your account close, your account rec, your budgeting and forecasting, and then all the way through to your reporting.
Aaron Levine:Right? It's just so it's just so powerful as a as a CFO. So
Adam Larson:Well, Aaron, I really appreciate you coming on the podcast, sharing your expertise, and I love your passion about being a CFO and what you're able to do with, Emerald Technology today. And I just thank you so much for coming on.
Aaron Levine:Thank you, Adam. A lot of fun. Thanks.
Announcer:This has been Count Me In, IMA's podcast providing you with the latest perspectives of thought leaders from the accounting and finance profession. If you like what you heard and you'd like to be counted in for more relevant accounting and finance education, visit IMA's website at www.ima net.org.