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Episode 860: In this episode, we dive into the powerful and challenging topic of forgiveness and how it shapes our relationship with God. Drawing from the Beatitudes, the Lord’s Prayer, and passages like Matthew 6 and Ephesians 4:32, we unpack the difference between judicial forgiveness and relational forgiveness, and why unforgiveness can hinder our spiritual peace. This conversation invites listeners to reflect on their own hearts and discover how choosing forgiveness can lead to healing, restoration, and a deeper experience of God’s mercy.
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You're listening to The Bible Guys, a podcast where a couple of friends talk about the Bible in fun, in practical ways. Hey, everybody, welcome to the Bible Guys. Thanks for tuning in. Man, it's gonna be a good day. It is a great day. Well, it's Friday, Jess. It's the best day for our longtime listeners. They are just hoping and praying, wishing upon a star that this would be their favorite segment ever. Oh yeah, everybody's favorite segment. I see, Yes, everybody's favorite segment. I'm not everybody. Are hordes of listeners worldwide are sitting on the edge of the sea saying, it's Friday. I wonder what made Chris mad this week? I see, you see, I see and you know you know it's true. I'm not sure. But do people ever stop you in the lobby or whenever they run into you say that they love that segment? Yeah, but all the time, not. More than not more than other comments though it's not overwhelming. Do they talk about other segments as much as they talk about that segment? No, that that's what I'm saying. That's definitely not This is everybody's favorite. Okay, I see. Okay, well, listen, Jeff, here's the thing. Ultimately, I'm going to say that I'm mad at the people who build cars. Oh yeah, so hundreds of thousands of auto manufacturers, that's builders. But it always comes down to one or two guys. Car car builders. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're talking about the guy on the line working in the shop. Oh no, no, no, no, I'm talking about the designers. Oh, engineers, engineers and thousands of thousands of engineers. Yeah. We a our whole church is full engineers. Hey, listen, stop interrupting me. We live. It comes down to one guy who tells the engineers what to do. Okay, yes, so I'm mad at that guy. You met that guy? Okay, okay, are you ready? Yes, all right. I've observed over the past, you know, fifty years of my life, probably closer to forty years, that there are certain cars that when you open the door, you know how the snow rushes in and goes on your seat. There are certain cars that have a propensity to do that more than others. Yeah, so does mine. And so I'm thinking to myself, a GMC, it's the same truck. It's the same truck. It's the same truck. So it's like it's like, no matter how hard I try, it's like I'll clear off my car with the brush, you know, and I'll make sure to get around the edges. I'll go upcrest over to the roof, you know, and I'll try. It does not matter how hard I try, I always either forget or don't not pay attention to or maybe I don't do good of a job. I don't know. But I open the door and there's this unbelievable I mean so much so to where I I have to brush it off with my hand, and if I choose not to because the wind's going so much, I'll sit in it and then I'll feel the wetness on my legs. Right, I mean, that's a lot of snow. It's snow, but you open it up and it just goes in. Now, for those listening in other parts of the country, you don't have to deal with that. I envy you. I truly do envy you. There is this thing that happens when you open up a door of a car. It just gets sucked in and all of a sudden, right where you're about to sit is covered with snow. I think that there's something about the equilibrium that I think that there's lower pressure inside than outside or something so that when you open that there's a slight vacuum that pulls into the car. It's got to be that way, because it's it's every time, it's every time, it's every time, and it pulls in about two feet in, right in the middle or just past the center of your seat. Well, here's my thing, because falling, it's. Getting pulled in. And so my question is, because some cars are way better than other cars, and I've observed that, why don't the people who design the cars test for it? Like, I bet you that's not a part of their testing. It's not you know, I've thought several times it seems like if when I'm opening my door it pulls in, that means it's already pulling in. Right. So if there's a little crack or in one of the seams on my on the you know, seals on my door or whatever, dust is getting pulled in and pulled in. Why don't they just pressurize our cabins when you stop, when you turn your engine off, your here go, there's all this stuff happening. Yeah, why don't they just pressurize the cabin when you when you close the door, Why don't they pressurize. Just put just a tiny bit of positive pressure inside the cabin. That way, no dust comes in, and when you open the door, it'll blow snow out, not in. Yeah, that's a great idea. It's not that hard. There you go. Engineers, get guys, let's go. I mean I am angry at you. We could do their job on Fridays. There's one there's there is one guy. It comes down to, right, there's one guy. One guy at GMC, there's one guy at Chrysler, and that guy, that guy is responsible. For And you know who you are all the testing? Yeah, you who you are? And if you listen to the Bible. Guys, come on, I mean it's it's motor city for I mean, you know we've grown up with snow here your whole life and for everybody's whole life since since Michigan has existed. Right, so this isn't a new thing, So why not have it be a part of your testing? Come on, get on it. I feel good about this, Chris. Are you agree with me? Yeah, I'm gonna agree with you on that. Yeah, So I did that just a couple of days ago at snow there was a light dusting of snow. Yeah, and the light dusting snow's pretty yeah, but it is the real light has a very very fluffy, powdery kind. So you opened up and it was just like this much snow in my car. I didn't even bother to brush it off. We go open it up. Have the snow in my yard landed in my snow I'm not joking. Snow in my yard of my trunk on my seat. Yeah, that's what made Chris. Well, we're sorry. Now we just alienated. If you don't know, Chris and I, we passed her at the church. Hearded church in uh southeast Michigan, and probably half of our church is engineers for general motors or chrystlers. That's right, that's right, that's right. So man, we are we're in trouble now. We might be looking for a job. They're gonna boycott all of a sudden next Tunday, nobody shows up, that's right. So hey, all I know is some cars have mastered it and some cars have not. So let's let's and being this angry, do you find it hard to forgive them? You know? Jeff I I think I ultimately forgive them, but I like to hold on my anger and I like to think that you were good enough to have until my jeans get dry. Yeah yeah, okay, yeah, but then I forgive forgive them. Well, why did you ask about because we're talking about that. Really, that's a little bit of the mercy thing. Wow, Jesus said in the Beatitudes. Did you know? He said in the Beatitudes, Blessed are the merciful, for they will be showing mercy. I do know that part of mercy is forgiveness. Yes, it's not the only thing, right, you talked yesterday about lots of different things about mercy when we have compassion on people, whatever we don't do to them what they deserve or whatever. Right, lots of different ways of looking at mercy, but one of them is forgiving. What happened to he youre mercy. Forgiveness is a part of that. And you know one of the most famous places about mercy and forgiveness is in the Lord's Prayer right here in Matthew Matthew, chapter six, in the Sermon on the Mountain. Yes, so let me just read the Lord's Prayer. He says in verse nine of Matthew chapter six, pray like this, our father in heaven, May your name be kept holy. May your kingdom come soon. May your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us today the food we need, and forgive us our sins as we've forgiven those who sin against us. And don't let us yield the temptation, but rescue us from the evil one. Then he says in verse fourteen, if you forgive those who sin against you, your heavenly father will forgive you. But if you refuse to forgive others, your heavenly Father will not forgive your sins. Mm hmm. Yep. Those are some. Strong statements, and some them some tough words. Tough words, yep, yep, souh. There are probably people who, when you hear that on the surface, how can you not how can you not interpret that as conditional forgiveness? Yeah, you know, And then is that also like, is that forgiveness for heaven or is that forgiveness for you know, just relationship, right, Because there's the judicial forgiveness, right, which is the once and for all legal standing before God kind of forgiveness. Yeah. Yeah, Then there's relational forgiveness, which is ongoing fellowship between the father and his child. I think to be very very clear here, this is not for salvation. Yeah, this is God refusing to forgive your sins to take you to heaven. This is a relational issue. The reason being you and I cannot forgive anybody's sins so they can go to heaven. That's right. So he's not holding us to a higher standard. Correct, right that I won't forgive your sins where I'm going to hold a grudge, But then God's gonna send me to hell because I'm holding a grudge. That's not its God says I'm going to hold a grudge if you hold a grudge. And the reason why, the reason why we know that is because these are these are relational terms. First of all, these are not like courtroom judicial terms. And secondly, all of this is under the blanket of the Christian right. Because he says forgive, forgive our sins, as as we forgive those who you know trespass against us or whatever. He's referring to somebody who already knows God. So the commandment, the warning is to those who have already been forgiven by God. Right. So yeah, there's a really great, Do you have any good notes on this one? In my study Bible The Life Application Study Bible. He says, Jesus gives us startling warning about forgiveness. If we refuse to forgive others, God will also refuse to forgive us. Why because by not forgiving others, we deny our common ground as sinners in need of God's forgiveness, and we break the family relationship God wants us to have with all people. Our salvation from sin is not based on our forgiving others. But we can't receive God's forgiveness until we realize what forgiveness really means. We can easily ask God for forgiveness for ourselves, but then hang on to grudges toward others who are difficult to forgive. Whenever we ask God to forgive us for sin, we should first ask ourselves if we've forgiven the people who've wronged us. And that reminds me, you know, Mark chapter eleven, Jesus says, if you're praying and you remember that you have something against somebody, right, you know, go make it right. And that comes up in multiple places here here's what he says. He says, but when you're praying first forgive anyone you're holding a grudge against, so that your father in heaven will forgive your sins too. Right, So it's hard to pray God forgive my sins and at the same time, you know I'm going to refuse to forgive somebody else. That's a hard place to be. And so it's you're kind of you're not understanding what forgiveness is. And this is one of the ways I know that forgiveness is not saying it's okay, right, because that's not what God did. God. God never said my sins okay. God said, and we talked about this a few weeks ago. God says, I'll pay the price for your sin, but he never says it's okay. When I choose to forgive, that means I choose not to judge. I am and judge. I'm not saying have an opinion about it. Means I'm not going to set myself up as the judge, jury and executioner, like somehow I have the right to execute some kind of judgment on you. Instead, I'm going to surrender that right. And that is the extent of forgiveness. So it's not saying it's okay, it's not even feeling it's not feeling good about it. I've forgiven people and didn't feel good about the fact that I forgave them. I just did it because I knew, And all I did was relinquish and tell God. I've said to God, God, no longer is their judgment my business. It's yours. You deal with them and Romans the book Romans, chapter was it? What? Chapter twelve says. Don't get revenge because Vengeance's mind, says the Lord. I will repay, he says. Don't repay evil with evil, repay evil with good. Because Vengeance's mind says the Lord, I will repay, And I'll be honest with you. There is a certain amount of comfort when I finally decide I don't have to be the one repaying them for what they did to me. You know, I think about my biological father or whatever, the abuse. When I came to the point where I decided, I don't have to be the one that finds a way to punish him. Instead, God, it's your business, You're the judge, the Bible says. Vengeance's mind says the Lord, I will repay. What kind of judgment He's gonna get far greater judgment from God than he's gonna get from me. So there is a certain amount of satis faction and finally surrendering my right to be the executioner. Instead say to God, God, you take care of it, and God says vengeances mind says, well, I'll repay. That's the extent of forgiveness. Yeah, So I think all of us can come to that if we understand what actual forgiveness is. When I go fine, I'm giving up my right to be the prosecutor. I'm giving up my right to be the executor. Every one of us can do that. Every one of us can pray a prayer that says, God, you know this person hurt me. You know what this person did, You deal with it. I'm done. I'm not going to deal with it anymore. I think we can all pray that prayer. I agree. I agree. You asked me about different notes. Here's a note. It says forgiveness here is experiential, not transactional. Jesus is not describing how sins are legally erased, but how forgiveness is experienced and enjoyed. So forgiveness disrupts our prayer. Life experiential and relational rather than positional. And yes, yes, yes great. So in forgiveness disrupts our prayer life, it disrupts our spiritual peace, it disrupts our communion with God. God's mercy does not disappear, but our experience of it becomes blocked because of hardness of heart. Yeah, there you go. You won't feel forgiven if you don't forgive. Right, So, yeah, you won't be Yeah, you won't be in communion with God. You won't have the blessings and the you know, the the spiritual peace and all the things that talks about. So I think that was interesting. And then it also says the if here. The IF statement is descriptive, not meritorious, right, not based on merit. So Jesus not saying forgive in order to earn forgiveness. He's saying those who have been forgiven will forgive. Forgiveness toward others is evidence of a transform heart, not the cause of salvation. Oh that I just quoted Mark eleven twenty five. Yeah, yeah, what you just said is what this is saying. So the idea says, then Jesus said, to the disciples, have faith in God. I tell you the truth. You can say to this mountain, maybe you be lifted up and thrown into the sea and it'll happen, but you must really believe it'll happen and have no doubt in your heart. I tell you you can pray for anything, and if you believe that you've received it, it'll be yours. Okay wow. Yeah. Then in the same breath, he says, but when you're praying, first, forgive anyone you're holding a grudge against, so that your father in heaven will forgive your sins too. So he's connecting this relational answer to prayer, Dad, I need you to do something for me. M h. And Dad goes, no, you won't do it for others. I'm not gonna do it for you, right right, that's what he's saying. This isn't about going to heaven, but it is. It's that it's that it's not positional, it's relational. And then what was the other one? What was the other word you use that I highlighted a second ago to forget. It's not meritorious, Yeah, nope, back back further. Experiential transitional, Yes, it's experiential. So here's so the transaction of forgiveness for heaven is literally Jesus on the cross. He has shed his blood, he took the punishment of our sin in his body, and his last words before Father, into your hands, I come in my spirit, he says. To tell us, Sty, it's paid and full. That's purely a transaction, right. So then I was paid in full. Now it's offered as a gift. Hey, look at Either you can pay the full price and here's the bill, which is eternal separation from me in hell. Or here's the same bill, but it's paid and full. To tell U, Sty, which do you want? And by faith, I can accept the free gift, or I can choose to pay the price myself. That's it. That's transactional. Salvation is transactional. I remember at eight years old when I trusted Christ, when I found out that Jesus would had paid the price for my sin and that if I would accept his free gift, he'd forgive me. I remember thinking, I literally told my mom, this is the best deal in the universe, and so I told her. For me, salvation was purely transactional. I know for some people it's goosebumps and super hyper spiritual. All this kind of stuff for me. It wasn't when I understood God's words that I was a sinner that Jesus paid the price for sink because he loves me, and then it'll give it to me as a free gift of fall. Accept it. I remember honestly thinking, this is the best deal in the universe. It's purely transactional, right. But then because of the transaction. John chapter one, verse twelve says, to those who believed him and accepted him or received him, he gave the power to become the children of God. In that moment that that transaction happens, he adopts me into his own family, which my dad adopted me. That also was a transaction. It was a legal transaction. Yeah, he changed my name from my old name to his name. He took responsibility from me. He signed on the dotted line, and he swore an oath to the judge, and he made a promise to me and my mom. Right, that was a transaction too. But from the moment that transaction was done, I was his son. Now it's a relational thing, not a transactional thing. Right, And it's the same thing. Ephesians chapter two says it was always God's plan to adopt us into his own family. So he did the transaction for us so that we could be part of the family. Now, when you and I sin, it's not about the transactions done. It's paid in full, it's done. But the relationship side. It was possible for me to make my dad mad at me, and my dad wouldn't give me what I wanted. Right. We've all been parents, we know, right, those who that have been parents, you know that there's times when you want to be a blessing to your children. There's times when your kids don't deserve it, you're not going to give it to them. Right, You've had it in your own family. And so our sin or our inability to forgive other sins can affect our relationship, even though the transaction and our position with God are unaffected. And so this is purely the relational side of things. And here he's saying, you can pray anything, and God, your father in heaven, will answer you. Oh wait a minute, don't forget. You need to forgive other people while he's not going to hear your prayers. In the Book of James, it says if you leave a hurt in the heart of your woman as a husband. God won't hear your prayers, he said. For this reason, God doesn't answer your prayers. So what he says, look at James, it's possible for us to leave pain or refuse to forgive. And God goes, listen, it's not that I don't love you, it's that you just don't even understand the idea of this relationship. You're not doing it. So take care of that and then we'll get back to being right again. And as it took for my kids to get right with me, is to come back and tell me Dad, I'm sorry. Once they acknowledged the fact that they had crossed the line, or that they weren't really acknowledging my kindness or my generosity, or the fact that they had sinned against me, all they have to do is acknowledge it. Man, my heart says, I want to forgive you. Right, And that's the Heavenly Father is the exact same thing on a relational level. That's awesome. Yeah, Well, here's how we know that this is not conditional forgiveness. Number one, the scripture clearly teaches unconditional forgiveness in Christ, right, I mean Ephesians two eight nine. We quote that just about every Sundays salvation is by grace alone. It's a part from works. Roman says, it's once for all. Hebrews Chapter ten says, So if Matthew six taught conditional forgiveness, it would contradict all those verses and dozens of others. Right. Number two, We know that because the Bible distinguishes judicial forgiveness and relational forgiveness, right, which we already talked about. Number three, because conditional forgiveness would undermine assurance. Right, it's the it's the finished work of the cross. It's exactly what you just said, right to tell us stye is it is? It is done, and conditional forgiveness would undermine that. Right. And then, and then I have to liken it to one of my favorite verses on forgiveness of Hesians four thirty two. I just looked it up, did you I just read here? Yeah? Read it Efesians four thirty two. Well, I know it, but read it. He says, instead, be kind to each other, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, just as God through Christ has forgiven you. Yeah. And so the words just as right, those two words and the Greek means in the same way, in the same way. So so it's just like, okay, so we're gonna we're gonna forgive others just as and and think about what he says. It says God is the one who does the forgiving through Jesus. Right, So God, our heavenly Father, is the one who forgives us. And it's because of Jesus. So you know, just even as God, for Christ's sake has forgiven you. So the best part about this forgiveness is is that it says that like, hey, we didn't deserve it, well, right, we didn't earn it. God forgave us because of Christ's sake. And so it reminds me that I've referenced this before in this on this podcast, but a new song, this One's with me. When he says this was with me, I just I picture heaven and I picture like us standing there and being ashamed of our sins and you know, ready to turn around and walk away, and then Jesus stepping up and saying, hey, this one's with me. Hey dad, this one is with me, you know. And and it's like, oh, yeah, have you ever gotten in have you ever gotten in some place of someplace important? Because you're with somebody who's important. You know. I was getting ready to go into the Pentagon, and I had a colonel friend of mine who is was very high placed in some very very secret things in the Pentagon. And when we got there, something about my paperwork was wrong. So my sons got in ahead of me, and then they stopped me and the MP the military police guys get really aggressive with me. They're like grumpy with me. And then my colonel friend come walking and he's just wearing casual clothes, but they knew who he was. They snapped to attention. They give him the thing and he goes so a problem and they say, no, sir, and they said why isn't my friend coming in? Said, oh, he's with you. They say yes, he said go on, go on, sir. And so I had these MPs who were about ready to arrest me because they thought I had some kind of fake credentials or whatever. The colonel comes out and goes, he's with me, and I go, yeah, I'm with him. That's right, that's right, that's how you feel about. Right. And see he gave us a tour of the whole Pentagon. So then as we're going through the Pentagon, we go all around. We finish up this tour and we're standing in the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff's office and we're looking at his awards on the wall. He's got all these photos with all the presidents and all these things he's done. He's got all these little trophies, he's got all these really cool knickknacks on his shelf. And while we're standing in his office, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff comes in. He's the top general in America, walks in. We're just standing in his office. We weren't invited his office. My colonel friend took us in his office, was showing us a couple of things, and he goes, oh, hey, Todd, my friend. He goes, hey, Todd, how are you doing. Who do you have with us? And I was like, oh no, we're going to get in trouble. He turns out and do this is my friend and this is his son's all this kind of stuff, and the top general in America was like, shake our hands. Any friend of Todd's is a friend of mine kind of thing. And again it was one of those hey he's with me, So I didn't belong there. I didn't belong in that room, that's right. But because my friend invited me there, it was like okay, and that's how we get into heaven. And so the magnitude that's right. And the magnitude of that is what if he's in four thirty two is saying, He's saying, even as God, for Christ's sake, has forgiven you, so you ought to forgive other people because you already know that Jesus has forgiven them. So therefore, because He's forgiven them and he loves them in the same way that you're forgiven of your sins, you're pardoned, you know, your favored, extend all of that to other people in the same way. Yeah, wouldn't it be weird if my colonel friend comes and gets me and then I turn on, go why are you letting that guy in? Right? Right? Right? So colonel came and got me, but I don't want him to bring in anybody else, or or. You not welcoming somebody in the heritage or something. Right, I have the power to open doors for other people, but I refuse even though my friend in the door for me. That's the idea. It's relational now, it's not positional. It's not about getting into heaven that's paid in full once you receive that gift. It's all about now the relationship you have with God. And it turns, it turns the relation of the blessing of the relationship on and off. That's based on us really embracing what it meant to be forgiven and have mercy given to us. The more we get into that and we really understand the value and the power of that mercy and forgiveness, the more we naturally it's going to flow out of us. Just like I talked about the other day, my friend stopped wanting to beat people up and now he has so much compassion he feels bad about those kinds of things. We change from the inside out because of what Jesus did, and so it's more symbolic. It's a symptom of the fact that Jesus has already changed us on the inside that we start to forgive other people. The more we learn about forgiveness week extend. So it's a clear and true statement that would say if we hold onto unforgiveness, it hinders our relationship with Christ, and so we need to take care of that. That's the action step for today. Yeah, that's fantastic. All right. Well that's how we're going to wrap up, so hopefully we'll see you on Monday on the Bible. Guys,