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NET Society is unraveling the latest in digital art, crypto, AI, and tech. Join us for fresh insights and bold perspectives as we tap into wild, thought-provoking conversations. By: Derek Edwards (glitch marfa / collab+currency), Chris Furlong (starholder, LAO + Flamingo DAO), and Aaaron Wright & Priyanka Desai (Tribute Labs)
00;00;16;01 - 00;00;21;00
Aaron
Guys, we got some crypto or energy back on the timeline. How are we feeling about that?
00;00;21;01 - 00;00;24;04
Chris
Are you talking about Impressionism? Fake out?
00;00;24;05 - 00;00;33;21
Aaron
I think I am. And what does that say about the state of internet culture and society? Chris, what are your thoughts? Muse away.
00;00;33;24 - 00;00;59;28
Chris
I'm being given the muse button. Yeah, well, look, slums is going to schlock, and I enjoy, like, both the, like the longevity and the randomness of it at the same time. You know, like, he's he's good for, you know, every, every month, every couple of months capturing people's attention in ways in which after the fact, they're like, oh yeah, classic slams.
00;00;59;28 - 00;01;22;03
Chris
But while it's happening, you know, like you're not really aware of what's going on. I saw that post. You know, I was just like, I wonder what what type of a point Shalom is trying to make right now. And then I just went on past it because, you know, the whole AI art discourse, you've just seen it a million times, right?
00;01;22;04 - 00;01;44;02
Chris
And so I literally just blew by it. It was only like a day later when, you know, it actually popped up, that he posted an original Monet and that, you know, the comments went crazy. I guess we can credit Jedi Wolf for kind of bringing this to light. And then then it went viral there. And so all I'll say is like, hats off to.
00;01;44;04 - 00;01;47;01
Chris
And then I'll pass the mic to Derek here.
00;01;47;03 - 00;02;20;29
Derek
Yeah. I mean, I guess like the I'll say one thing, which is it was fun for me to see all of this go down over the last couple of days. I, you know, I had a I have a portfolio company that announced their pre-seed round roster yesterday as well. I made this I but before I even knew that Shalom was going to NFT the Monet, I made this thread just about like kind of getting back to basics and going back to first principles about why even crypto art is interesting, and why tens of thousands of people who are still around collecting and making art and viewing it.
00;02;21;00 - 00;02;44;29
Derek
And, and I, I was just like pretty enthusiastic that the same day that like, you know, I put out this first principles post on like why I think crypto art is durational and why it's going to be here for a long time. This incredible, incredible art piece was made public on the internet, and it was networked with an immense amount of attention very quickly.
00;02;44;29 - 00;03;19;07
Derek
And it, you know, pulled a Duchamp and and made people on both sides of the aisle question what exactly the heck they were looking at and, and then ultimately funneled that attention into a permanent record of the object that lives on Ethereum, and it ended up getting collected, I think, this morning for about like 28th. And so I just, you know, at the end of the day, it's just like it's really nice to see the perfect demonstration of why I think internet based digital objects, plus blockchains continue to kind of fascinate me.
00;03;19;07 - 00;03;55;01
Derek
And and it only takes an example, you know, every couple of months for I think, the larger non crypto art people to be like, oh yeah, that shit's really fucking cool. I can dig it. And so I guess I'm just saying I'm happy that Shalom decided to, to make work in this way. I'm happy that it broke out of crypto Twitter and to kind of like the larger technology and anti I a discussion and ultimately happy that there was an object that is durable, that will live forever, that is a that captured that the artwork.
00;03;55;01 - 00;03;57;15
Derek
And I think that's pretty cool.
00;03;57;15 - 00;04;15;19
Aaron
That's a great perspective Derek. And congrats on the the seed round roster. I was called it raster. Is it roster. How do we say that raster. Raster. Are we being kind of too kind though? I mean, isn't the part of the story just how dumb the internet, how dumb the internet is? Like? Isn't that a piece of it?
00;04;15;20 - 00;04;47;02
Chris
Well, yes, but I'm going to continue with the kindness, because I think part of the what makes slams interesting is how he's able to turn mundane things into interesting conversations, events, performances. Like I said, I blew by his original post because I was just like, I don't know what slums is up to here. I got other things going on and I really am so over like the art debate, right?
00;04;47;04 - 00;05;37;14
Chris
He did this with the sun setting Gmail thing a couple of years back. He's done this in countless other ways. And so yes, the internet is dumb, but he was also, I think, smart and salient enough to recognize, like, this is a classic like bait post. It's going to draw a strong reactions from both sides and the sequencing of how he does it, in which, you know, he lays this trap so that the comments can just be filled with like basically NPC responses about, you know, AI and creativity, knowing that there's a whole, you know, techno feudal overlord element waiting in the wings to jump on this as soon as the masses are revealed as
00;05;37;14 - 00;05;58;08
Chris
dumb, which is then going to elevate the whole spectacle to stunt. I mean, this is like a craftsman at work here. And so yes, like the internet is dumb, people are behaving on autopilot. But I just sort of appreciate the way he sequenced the whole thing, strung it together, you know, it was just a very well done piece of work.
00;05;58;10 - 00;06;16;25
Pri
It was the social commentary around it is genius. I mean, yeah, it proves that point, Aaron. But like the way that he was able to actually communicate, that was, I thought, brilliant too, I loved it. The one thing I was thinking about as we were chatting is like, because like you had the people, dogs and stuff to like is a lot of the work that we're going to see in the digital world.
00;06;16;25 - 00;06;23;24
Pri
Like, do you think it has to be like stunt or commentary base? Like maybe I'm being a little bit too, like good there. But I feel like that.
00;06;23;24 - 00;06;28;01
Aaron
Was yeah, the area of Gallagher. Is that what I'm hearing? Pretty. Yeah.
00;06;28;02 - 00;06;44;28
Pri
Yeah. Like I mean everything is stunt based to get attention. You kind of see that even with startups trying to break through with, like, everything being vibe coded. And you have to, like, do some cool level shit to get attention. But I wonder if the same applies to art too. But yeah, not to not to to direct the conversation in a different.
00;06;44;29 - 00;07;06;15
Aaron
It feels that way. Yeah. I mean, it definitely does feel that way to me that like you need to have like an attention grabbing piece of it just to cut through the noise of it. The thing that struck me is like, I read those comments and thought to myself, wow, there are so many bots on the internet. Like, I don't think I bet a huge percentage of those replies are just we're not people.
00;07;06;18 - 00;07;22;24
Aaron
Personally, I don't think that people were responding to it. I think some bot form was, and it's pretty wild just to kind of see that in action, because did you guys click through any like the responding accounts that a lot of them look pretty body to me. So like why are they like just botting anything that's like AI generated.
00;07;22;24 - 00;07;35;21
Aaron
And who's doing that. Where are they. From what I thought yeah I mean like because it didn't seem organic. The responses they like all were kind of a little bit too like dumb and not insightful. It felt super bought for me. To me.
00;07;35;21 - 00;07;42;16
Derek
I will say, I did notice a dozen people that I know in real life commenting on the thread, so I do.
00;07;42;21 - 00;07;45;01
Aaron
It was a mix, right? Yeah.
00;07;45;03 - 00;07;47;28
Derek
Yeah, I think you're right though. I did see some bots.
00;07;47;29 - 00;07;52;21
Aaron
Like why are they botting? Why are they botting? AI generated content like aren't the.
00;07;52;22 - 00;08;14;22
Derek
Yeah I think they're I think laying the seeds for what will end up being kind of a very divisive midterms around some of these topics and maybe even national election for the you know, I think the next couple of years, we're going to see an incredible social media warfare around AI. And I think we're probably already starting to see some of that crop up.
00;08;14;23 - 00;08;45;07
Chris
Well, I mean, let's just get to like the the Occam's razor of this all. Who has the incentive to bought this? It's Twitter to themselves. Who knows what the algorithm is going to be driving on any given day. Twitter themselves who says one thing does another? The owner of Twitter himself. And so, you know, to your point, Aaron, like I've had days where, you know, like the algorithm has decided like the IRA of all things is like what's going to make the algorithm go, or at least my particular flavor of it.
00;08;45;08 - 00;09;06;04
Chris
And like the comments and the reactions and you're just like, these are these are freaking bots. Like, no one is this passionate about, you know, this topic in this day and age. And all of a sudden it comes out of the blue, you know, like it's the same way as politicians. Why don't politicians solve the problem? They don't want to solve the problem.
00;09;06;06 - 00;09;09;29
Chris
Why is Twitter not solve their problem? They don't want to solve their problem.
00;09;09;29 - 00;09;19;26
Aaron
This is a great day, Chris. I didn't think about this. So you think it's like they're happy to have this, just like this discourse or lack of discourse related to it. What's your incentives?
00;09;19;27 - 00;09;21;03
Pri
Yeah, I don't see how it helps.
00;09;21;03 - 00;09;38;27
Chris
Them, because a certain subset of people react to this very, very passionately. And in doing so they generate fodder to continue to cycle. You know, it's a bit of like a they have to solve the cold start problem on certain topics or post every single day.
00;09;38;28 - 00;09;41;18
Aaron
Yeah, just they want to win the day. Right. Something like that.
00;09;41;19 - 00;10;08;16
Chris
Yeah. This is like forward deployed engineers just like NPC moron. You know, version. I mean we see this in music all the time, right? There was this big thing about like, how did geese become so damn big? And then, you know, there was this whole story about, you know, the astroturfing of online engagement around geese. You look at Spotify play count, some of them like dropped dramatically in and you'd be like, oh, this artist management didn't pay their ghost streamers this month, right?
00;10;08;17 - 00;10;35;18
Chris
Like, this stuff exists in a lot of different forms, and a lot of it just goes towards like, there is a privilege and a and like an access the attention of Ford's you and that. Like if you can maintain a credible name, if you can be in front of things, door is open to you, you know, a topic three and I are going to like, really want to get into shortly like, you know, hinges on the same idea.
00;10;35;19 - 00;10;40;08
Chris
Like you can get a lot of really mid shit across if you can command attention.
00;10;40;09 - 00;10;41;15
Aaron
Yeah, it's definitely true.
00;10;41;16 - 00;10;54;03
Pri
And engagement is the name of the game engagement and distribution. So I guess that is their incentive. And there's nothing like a anti AI fodder right now. So it's like why not stick it or be the one to stoke it I guess.
00;10;54;04 - 00;11;01;20
Chris
The switching gears Derek do you want to hear a super exciting pitch from pre and I on an amazingly hot startup.
00;11;01;24 - 00;11;04;27
Aaron
Are you guys do it as working together.
00;11;05;01 - 00;11;08;03
Pri
Yeah yeah. We're pitching. Yeah we're working on something. The other.
00;11;08;04 - 00;11;09;01
Derek
Let's do it.
00;11;09;01 - 00;11;13;07
Aaron
Yeah yeah I mean terror can be a we can give you feedback.
00;11;13;10 - 00;11;15;12
Derek
Just Aaron Aaron and I are.
00;11;15;12 - 00;11;24;28
Aaron
In the Derek. Yeah. We're the sharks. Let's let's let's sit back. I'm gonna get my coffee. I'm ready to hear. What if.
00;11;25;00 - 00;11;39;07
Chris
You had an experienced founder who pioneered work in the DDC category, opening whole new sales verticals, now getting matched to an exciting new technology called artificial intelligence.
00;11;39;07 - 00;11;40;08
Aaron
I'm intrigued.
00;11;40;15 - 00;11;47;19
Chris
Are you now, what's a place you return to every single day? Where do you wake up every single day? What is the center of your life?
00;11;47;22 - 00;11;48;25
Pri
I'll give you a hint.
00;11;48;26 - 00;11;51;04
Aaron
The internet close.
00;11;51;07 - 00;11;54;18
Chris
All right. Imagine you're in 1990 and I asked this question.
00;11;54;21 - 00;11;56;18
Aaron
The internet.
00;11;56;21 - 00;12;01;00
Pri
Will make it really easy. Basically, the home, the the physical space that you live in.
00;12;01;01 - 00;12;03;19
Aaron
Oh, okay. You're finding.
00;12;03;19 - 00;12;04;29
Derek
A housing startup?
00;12;05;00 - 00;12;08;08
Aaron
Yeah. What are we doing here? 3D printing. What are we talking about?
00;12;08;09 - 00;12;14;05
Pri
No, no, it's even worse than that. It's a home management platform.
00;12;14;08 - 00;12;14;15
Aaron
What?
00;12;14;15 - 00;12;18;15
Chris
That ChatGPT for taking care of your house.
00;12;18;17 - 00;12;22;23
Pri
All of the essential tasks you need to keep your house on track.
00;12;22;24 - 00;12;26;11
Derek
Okay, so, like, what would be some of these tasks?
00;12;26;14 - 00;12;31;27
Chris
I notice my gutters are leaning and rain is filling over them. What should I do about it?
00;12;31;28 - 00;12;32;22
Derek
Right?
00;12;32;28 - 00;12;37;07
Chris
I haven't had my main drain snake this year. Am I in trouble?
00;12;37;10 - 00;12;37;18
Derek
Right?
00;12;37;18 - 00;12;39;07
Aaron
So. So probably.
00;12;39;14 - 00;12;56;05
Derek
Are you are you suggesting that, like it's a control plane for you, talking into the plane and noticing things about your house, and it gives you whatever out links to services and products that you can buy or hire or contract for to solve those things.
00;12;56;07 - 00;12;59;10
Pri
Correct. Broken apply? Maybe. Yeah.
00;12;59;10 - 00;13;02;22
Chris
But right now we're just asking questions and we're getting answers.
00;13;02;23 - 00;13;06;17
Pri
And it's launching this summer and it's co-founded by Martha Stewart.
00;13;06;18 - 00;13;11;12
Derek
Well, now you have my attention. You guys you guys have a partner named Martha Stewart.
00;13;11;18 - 00;13;13;03
Aaron
You lost my attention with that one.
00;13;13;03 - 00;13;22;25
Derek
I actually do think the wave of celebrity endorsed ChatGPT rappers or ripe right now.
00;13;22;25 - 00;13;31;22
Aaron
So, Derek, you think you think the time is right for an influencer supported GPT rappers? Why is that? Just to get more distribution?
00;13;31;22 - 00;14;15;12
Derek
I think that's right. I think like, listen, do I think Martha Stewart has the capacity to train a model or fine tune an open source base model on to make something like a product for you, for home living and using and paying for products and services based on her advice and tooling. And I mean, maybe like, I think that could work, but I think it's far more likely that we start to see, like, these wrapper products around these core foundation models that maybe have a celebrity influencer, kind of like what we've seen over the last 20 years with, like, the Ryan Reynolds and the vodka or the mint mobile stuff or, you know, making making
00;14;15;13 - 00;14;25;06
Derek
AI more digestible because you recognize this very human face next to it. I think that's probably a theme I would, I would imagine, becomes quite big over the next five years.
00;14;25;08 - 00;14;44;11
Aaron
I could see that, I mean, but that to me, that just means it's commoditized, like we're hitting the point of commoditization like a freight train, right? So like when you start, when you start needing that type of like influencer marketing based distribution, that means it's like the products and cells are getting more and more commoditized. Right?
00;14;44;12 - 00;15;21;05
Derek
I think that's been the story of this stuff so far. It's like very low switching costs to go from one model to the next. Open source is kind of like introducing itself on the scene as being a low cost option for 90% of the tasks. It's it does feel like that's already happening. And I if I'm a celebrity that has all of this goodwill in my IP built up, I think the way I probably make money in the age of this consolidation of value down to, you know, the the by model, by large language models is figuring out a way to put my name next to something and have it carve out a niche and
00;15;21;05 - 00;15;24;07
Derek
try and extract rents from value flows through that niche.
00;15;24;12 - 00;15;44;10
Aaron
Yeah, I think that that's like actually that the low switching cost is like the big thing I don't see in the AI discourse right now. It's just like that is a fact. I mean, if you've been using these things for a while, like you just don't develop like the allegiance that you would around, like let's say a Google or an Apple or some of the networked assets that we like.
00;15;44;11 - 00;16;10;16
Aaron
Like, right. Like there's an affinity that makes the switching costs like kind of hard to them or for them. But it's why I'm like, even though people are like flying on anthropic, I just am I'm kind of bearish on it because I just I increasingly don't see like their their differentiation. And I think their software is is, you know, it's trailblazing in certain ways but pretty deficient in other ways to like it's not fun to use software.
00;16;10;23 - 00;16;35;08
Chris
I tend to agree with you that the models to me are really like, how am I getting to a destination? You know, am I a car maxi? Am I a subway maxi? Am I going to take the bus? I'm going to call an Uber. It's just it's horses for courses and it depends a on what's running right. I mean, I think that's the biggest problem right now with these models is simply like, they're like the weather.
00;16;35;09 - 00;17;00;24
Chris
They're remarkably inconsistent. And you cannot like, you know, rely on them. Therefore you cannot build any sort of affinity towards them. I mean, like I'm using sonnet sonnet for six at the moment because it looks like OpenAI lobotomized 55 and everyone on Earth is cramming into opus. And so, yeah, I have long running task. I just need a job done.
00;17;00;24 - 00;17;02;21
Chris
I don't really care who the hell does it.
00;17;02;22 - 00;17;23;13
Aaron
I felt that this morning, Chris, it's pretty much like unusable during working hours. I'm like actually surprised. Like a plaintiff side lawyer has in a brought together a class action because I think I don't know I don't know if there would be a case for it, but I feel like they're doing some weird stuff underneath the hood that that probably could open up some liability for them.
00;17;23;15 - 00;17;24;17
Aaron
Or maybe.
00;17;24;19 - 00;17;25;18
Pri
Oh, interesting.
00;17;25;19 - 00;17;37;27
Aaron
Yeah. Because I think, you know, you're paying for like, the model at this rate, but like if they're quantizing it or doing something odd, it just feels like a little a little off just in terms of how it's being presented. I, you know.
00;17;37;29 - 00;17;41;08
Chris
Like, what if you only got 40V of electricity into your house?
00;17;41;09 - 00;17;47;28
Aaron
Yeah, it's something like that. And, you know, and they're saying you're getting y amount. There's like a little bit of a disconnect there.
00;17;48;01 - 00;17;54;29
Pri
Question just to kind of go back to the switching cost with the influencer led like marketing angle, as we're talking about it like.
00;17;55;00 - 00;18;24;22
Pri
It sounds like. And I agree with this too. I have no allegiance to the models. I kind of use whatever whenever I think. To your point, Chris, it's just like in order to get to a specific destination, whatever gets you there fastest and most accurately is like kind of, you know, what you want to use. Do you think that like these rappers that, let's say Martha Stewart doing it around your home or like, let's say Harvey started working with some world class celebrity lawyer?
00;18;24;22 - 00;18;39;13
Pri
I'm like making stuff up here. Do you think that would, like, change people's allegiance and desire, do you think? And like, with lower switching costs because they feel like loyalty to the human brand associated with the AI?
00;18;39;16 - 00;19;12;02
Chris
No, not at all, I think. Hint I believe is the name. Yes. Like this is this is just like opportunistic behavior, right? Martha Stewart has a legacy reputation. There are some people in her org who, you know, hungry to go out and and start something new. AI is hot. There's, you know, a VC firm, Montauk Capital, which I'm sorry, but if hallmark were to make a movie in which, like, you know, small town VC discovers true love, it'd be called Montauk Capital.
00;19;12;05 - 00;19;12;25
Pri
Yeah.
00;19;13;02 - 00;19;43;14
Chris
You know, like, this is this is just like another iteration of, I don't know, like, Netflix signing Prince Harry to a media deal. It's just like this prestige privilege mid product pipeline in which, you know, everyone gets goosed on it thinking, oh, we can't lose its Martha. An AI is hot and like, I don't know like I'm sorry, I don't really see a world in which, you know, as a homeowner, I'm ever hitting the App Store and looking for a hint.
00;19;43;16 - 00;19;43;24
Pri
Yeah,
00;19;43;24 - 00;20;05;03
Pri
But if they're able to like, chew. Giphy. Because, like, I don't think, Normie, like, let's homeowners are going into the lens themselves and being like I mean, maybe some of them are. But like, I saw an insane graphic that made me like rethink the fact that most people do not like literally 99% of people do not use paid models.
00;20;05;03 - 00;20;27;14
Pri
And so if you're not using a paid model, you're going to the free model of like Gemini or, you know, GPT or Claude and then saying like, hey, like my gutters are, you know, whatever. And then you get some kind of generic mid response and then you kind of go on with your day. Like, I think for those people, like they may need someone to prompt them to be like, okay, like tell me about your home.
00;20;27;16 - 00;20;50;28
Pri
Like how many rooms is it? What's this? Isn't that? And then it'll give them ideas on ways to improve their home. Like, I don't know if GPT is like doing that, especially like the fact that most of them are using the free version. So like, I think for you, you would never do it. But if you're like, hey, Martha is doing this home thing and it's going to like guide me to make my house better, I kind of feel like boomer normies would pay.
00;20;50;29 - 00;21;00;12
Pri
Like whatever. I don't know how much she's charging per month, but like, let's call it 3.99 a month for that or what? What have I can see that kind of actually being appealing.
00;21;00;19 - 00;21;15;17
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, is the boomer normie, the audience I mean really like it's a utility work based tool and a creative tool. They're not as much in the prime of their careers. I don't know if that's like a good segment to target at this point.
00;21;15;18 - 00;21;16;10
Pri
They're homeowner.
00;21;16;11 - 00;21;43;04
Chris
I agree Aaron, like if you want to find yourself in that world, have you ever been on like amateur plumbing YouTube. Like that's where I'm going. If I have like some random ass problem that I don't really know how to solve in my home, I'm going to YouTube because a lot of this is super visual. You know, it's like, oh, I've got, you know, a pipe fitted to, you know, my sink and it looks like it hasn't.
00;21;43;06 - 00;22;04;03
Chris
Like, no one's touched this shit since 1982. And I'm not quite sure how to properly, like, disconnect, connect it. Like what the right order of operations here is. You know, just certain things. Like you need to see, like, you know, a person who knows what they're doing, take it apart or put it together like that to me, like YouTube already exists.
00;22;04;03 - 00;22;16;25
Chris
I'm not sure where this middle ground would be, you know, between like, what generic GPT can tell me and what, you know, seeing someone like, do this for themselves or, you know, just some video.
00;22;16;25 - 00;22;36;24
Aaron
So yeah, I agree. Like until maybe it can be like customized to your exact setup, which I don't think it is yet. So and maybe that's the plan, but I don't know. It feels like just like stuff you see in froth. And even though I still think there's a long way for this, like AI build out to go, there's definitely like frothy signals that come out all the time.
00;22;36;24 - 00;22;47;26
Aaron
This this jumped out, at least to me as one. So I'm glad. I'm glad this isn't your your startup idea, guys. I think you can do better. I'm sure Derek agrees, but we could give you feedback if you want. If you want to do something.
00;22;47;26 - 00;22;52;28
Pri
I don't know. I can't tell if this is a top signal or just like AI becoming chewy for normies.
00;22;53;01 - 00;23;01;00
Chris
My my takeaway was this wasn't good enough for me and pre. But when when Derek heard Martha Stewart was involved, he was ready to open his checkbook.
00;23;01;03 - 00;23;16;04
Pri
Yeah that's notable. And also like I think like I was just looking at the they raised 10 million bucks. Like it's kind of crazy. Like what if it's like the goop for your house? That's all. AI like this actually could be.
00;23;16;08 - 00;23;17;14
Aaron
It's not going to be that.
00;23;17;20 - 00;23;21;23
Pri
What if it's like a Trojan horse to get people to like, like normies, to like AI?
00;23;21;29 - 00;23;26;09
Aaron
It's going to be like just a goop on somebody's fund reporting.
00;23;26;10 - 00;23;27;23
Pri
Yeah, yeah.
00;23;27;26 - 00;23;34;22
Chris
All right. What other froth are we seeing in the AI world? Let's separate the the wheat from the chaff here.
00;23;34;28 - 00;23;38;24
Pri
I mean, I don't think this is froth, but do we want to talk about, like, Trump in China right now?
00;23;39;00 - 00;23;56;08
Aaron
That's I was going to say I don't think it's like froth. I think it's like strategic. You're just seeing, you know, more machinations over who's going to have access to what chips. And it looks like the US is going to loosen that up, which I view is kind of like a signal that people have come to a conclusion that the US is is kind of one already.
00;23;56;08 - 00;24;09;10
Aaron
I don't think you'd see that unless the US felt like it was going to win this race. So to me, it's not really froth. It just feels like US tech is in a increasingly feeling like they're in a position of strength.
00;24;09;10 - 00;24;15;29
Chris
And by US tech, you mean TMS in the video. Like, what are we defining is us.
00;24;16;03 - 00;24;20;13
Aaron
I mean, all those leaders that, you know, that went to China to write.
00;24;20;14 - 00;24;23;12
Pri
Does anyone else need to be there besides them? To be honest?
00;24;23;13 - 00;24;41;18
Aaron
I mean, it kind of felt like like that was the sub context, right? Like, there's all this, these tech leaders from Tim Cook to, you know, to Jensen to Elon, just they're basically signaling that the race is kind of won.
00;24;41;21 - 00;25;12;22
Chris
The race is one right now. I would I would say the maybe to put another parallel story in the play here, like what we've been seeing out of China for like the last couple of years or like this, you know, this half decade so far has been a shift right from international brands towards, you know, like China, native brands selling into their own population, but even more so the consumer preference being Dubai Chinese.
00;25;12;22 - 00;25;42;29
Chris
And like it's almost like a templated article these days. Right. It's it's Volkswagen, it's Nike, it's Starbucks. Like pick a category. And whoever you know made hay in the 20 tens is getting clobbered right now. And, you know, like China is just preferring itself. And so, you know, maybe a cynical way to view this as Nvidia should sell every single like, you know, age 200.
00;25;43;00 - 00;25;47;28
Chris
Blackwell they can before China like cuts them off and just starts buying their own shit.
00;25;47;28 - 00;26;16;21
Aaron
I don't think they have much to buy though, Chris. I think that's the issue, and I think that they've kind of run out of runway with distillation approaches to, you know, catch up to the open source model or for their either implicitly or explicitly supported like open source models. I think it just it's just that, you know, like the gains that people are getting are from RL and they need they need these top chips and GPUs in order to do that.
00;26;16;21 - 00;26;23;07
Aaron
And the gap between these open source models that are not coming out of the US and the US models just seems to be winding.
00;26;23;08 - 00;26;28;04
Chris
Yeah, but the point I'm making is in 2036, China is not going to need Nvidia chips.
00;26;28;05 - 00;26;50;00
Aaron
Yeah completely. But I think and that's why I think they're flipping the switch to distribution. So they need them from from now to then. And if folks are increasingly confident that, you know, the race to AGI is going to be won first by the US, I don't think I don't think there's a position that there's just going to be one party that does that.
00;26;50;00 - 00;27;13;28
Aaron
And to me, it's a it's kind of like they're building out like who's going to have that capability. It's a little bit like nuclear, right? Like I think the US is going to kind of pick and choose who can have that. And that becomes like a bargaining chip in their, in their, you know, in their toolbox or stagecraft toolbox like is as not to pick on a country, but like is Azerbaijan going to have access to AGI like I don't know, right.
00;27;13;29 - 00;27;19;18
Chris
As Abidjan has access to a hell of a lot of gas. I bet you can. I bet you can trade gas for AGI.
00;27;19;21 - 00;27;42;19
Aaron
But like, I think that's the conversation like folks want to start having. And I think like as the stuff diffuses and as it diffuses, including into like the government, then you're just going to just see, you know, certain things, just race ahead even further. I don't know that that that's my view on, on on it. Everything else just seems like they it's just like posturing.
00;27;42;19 - 00;27;43;07
Aaron
Right.
00;27;43;08 - 00;27;46;24
Chris
Well posture away. I'll pay six bucks a gallon for gas.
00;27;46;26 - 00;27;48;11
Aaron
Exactly. Well, you know.
00;27;48;13 - 00;27;54;05
Pri
Do you think that there'll be any guarantees for the like in return for the chips, though?
00;27;54;13 - 00;27;59;12
Chris
China is really bad at guarantees and any guarantees they give, they never keep anyway.
00;27;59;16 - 00;27;59;29
Pri
Yeah.
00;28;00;02 - 00;28;15;00
Chris
Yeah. So you know oh open your markets up okay. Here we go. Here's here's our markets opened. Oh cool. We're just going to copy everything. Then we're going to compete you know. Oh stop depressing the BB okay. Sure we'll do that. You know like.
00;28;15;01 - 00;28;16;09
Pri
Yeah it doesn't actually matter.
00;28;16;10 - 00;28;37;10
Aaron
Well I think and I also think the frontier now is just robotics. Like I don't know if you guys saw that tweet from Brett Adcock showing just like a robot doing like sorting tasks for eight. Yeah. For eight hours straight without any error. Yeah I mean it's small step, right? I mean significant step. But like in the scheme of all work it like was a pretty routine tasks.
00;28;37;10 - 00;29;06;10
Aaron
But the fact that we're starting to see that type of efficiency and and gains I think is, is super fascinating. And I just think that that's the next frontier. And there I think the US is in a good position and incentivize to like incorporate robotics deep into its economy when I don't know if that's necessarily the case in, in other parts of the world, especially China right now, where they have actually fairly high unemployment rates, or at least that's what's reported, you know, so they're like in a bit of a bind there too.
00;29;06;10 - 00;29;13;03
Aaron
So I wonder if, like the the frontier shifting a bit to like robotics and that's like the next race.
00;29;13;06 - 00;29;15;03
Pri
Doesn't China outcompete there.
00;29;15;03 - 00;29;36;04
Aaron
I think they they can out manufacture now. But like it's not always about manufacturing right. It's about diffusion into the economy. And I just think, you know, we're hyper incentivized to to fuze that in, you know, more efficient factories catching up and manufacturing, you know, shifting, you know, the talented workforce that we have into like hopefully like higher value categories and areas.
00;29;36;04 - 00;29;58;03
Aaron
But there if you're if, if you have like unemployment rates that are pretty high, I forgot the exact numbers, but I think they may be north of 10%. And then your proposition to your people is, well, we're going to just automate away most of your manufacturing jobs. I think that's problematic. So, you know, in the US we're dealing with that on the white collar side.
00;29;58;04 - 00;30;19;24
Aaron
To me that's mostly just like a miscalculation in understanding, like what abundant economy looks like, which is like there's going to be plenty of stuff for everybody to do or plenty of stuff for everybody to do. So I think American white collar workers are pretty perturbed. I think the demand for like, more manufacturing work is like pretty much infinite in the US right now.
00;30;19;25 - 00;30;23;05
Aaron
Like we'd be happy to Rigobert up all that manufacturing capacity.
00;30;23;06 - 00;30;57;28
Derek
I think I agree with that. The maybe the only other note, it's a very kind of interesting question because China for 40, 50 years has really set themselves up to be just the manufacturing powerhouse of the world, with the supply chain infrastructure that exists, the factories, the the ability to kind of like spin up new products very quickly to build the micro parts required for for things like actuators in the robots arm, like difficult things that we just don't have the capacity or the intelligence to do here.
00;30;58;03 - 00;31;34;04
Derek
I think the advantage that the US has is we have this abundant capital markets system around risk, and I think this is where some of Aaron's points kind of like fall neatly within, which is we're very good at rewarding risk takers here. And we have an entire venture ecosystem to support that. And so I do think that as the yeah, the robotics vision starts to firm up, which I think is already starting to happen, you're just going to see more and more entrepreneurs take on that risk and try and move quickly and do things and raise consecutive rounds of financing.
00;31;34;04 - 00;31;57;04
Derek
And we have an entire venture, flywheels, that supports that, that style of building. And when things need to get built because they end up being important for the economy, they just happen to they happen here first or they happen here at very, you know, strong speeds. And so yeah, it's it's like this very big existential question which is like who wins the the robotics space?
00;31;57;04 - 00;32;22;11
Derek
And I think it's yeah, it's it's hazy because there are some real clear advantages and disadvantages for every country. Maybe one other advantage is the embodied part of AI. I mean, like let's call it like the foundational model space is just being dominated. I mean, open source is obviously a threat to some of these things. And things like Quinn and Kimi and Deep Seek are obviously like they're they're incredibly strong, impotent.
00;32;22;11 - 00;32;47;18
Derek
But you know, the best models in the world are coming out of the large labs in, in Silicon Valley, and that will probably continue for a while. And so I think the embodied part of robotics to me, I would certainly give a hat tip to the US on that front, which could accelerate some of the speed to market around around how robotics end up penetrating the economy.
00;32;47;18 - 00;33;12;01
Aaron
So yeah, I agree with that, Derek. Yeah, I think the other piece with robotics is right. Like what we see now is the manufactured pieces, which is I'm imagine super challenging engineering and technical tasks to solve some of those. But the last 10% is all going to be in the intelligence layer, I'd imagine. And so having an advantage there for a couple of years is just going to be super helpful to get distribution.
00;33;12;02 - 00;33;32;12
Aaron
Like, are you going to want the dumb or dangerous robot? Probably not. Right? Like even if it mechanically all works perfectly and can be manufactured at low cost, it's kind of like dead on arrival. It's kind of like the early AI chatbots, right? Like they were to hallucinatory like that last 10% needed to come into focus. And that's what we're just seeing now.
00;33;32;15 - 00;33;51;05
Aaron
You know, like the, the 8,090% of it was, was done in the 20 tens. It took like crossing that Rubicon for it to kind of scale and go, you know, go global. So I don't know, bullish U.S. robotics. I think it's going to look like the car industry in a decade or so.
00;33;51;08 - 00;34;28;09
Pri
I was thinking about it in a way. It's like, you know, we spent like the 90s and early 2000 even really, really pre-COVID, even just focused on globalization and global supply chain. And in that, obviously China, you know, expanded their prowess there. The US sort of outsourced a lot of the global supply chain. And like it has been difficult for the last decade or two, but in a way like setting up that global supply chain that China has spent decades not yeah, I guess probably to over two decades now, really like refining.
00;34;28;12 - 00;34;44;27
Pri
It's kind of easier just to like leapfrog that and and you're able to go like intend quickly for them though they're they already have these systems in place. It might even be harder for them to to try to like, transition into this embodied AI manufacturing supply chain.
00;34;44;29 - 00;35;03;28
Aaron
That that I think is is is a risk, right? Like I wouldn't put it past them to, to figure that out. But that's a challenge that I don't think we're going to have here. And I don't think that's going to be a challenge if you're goes in that direction to right there, hyper incentivized to to beef up their manufacturing base to for a variety of reasons.
00;35;03;28 - 00;35;23;06
Aaron
So I don't know, I just I just think a lot of these things are complicated. But like my signal of, like the geopolitical lens is just, you know, it feels like the tech sector feels very confident right now. And maybe that's a miscalculation, like Chris was saying, or partial one. But I don't know, it feels like we're kind of crossing into a new, new era.
00;35;23;08 - 00;35;41;05
Aaron
Yeah. And I think you're also feeling that because there's not as many announcements on the AI side, I think as like these models get bigger and bigger. They're going to take security more important, like what they're saying to the public, you know, or they're going to take security more seriously. They're going to consider what they're saying to the public a little bit more carefully.
00;35;41;07 - 00;36;03;23
Aaron
You're seeing kind of like these oppositional forces begin to to gather steam just because there's huge incentives for the US to not win this race. And there's huge incentives from white collar workers to make sure that they can control how it gets, you know, output so that they can keep their jobs. You know, that's a bigger issue, I think in the US being a more service based economy than than the robotics stuff.
00;36;03;26 - 00;36;23;08
Aaron
But guys, you know, with another big story, Chris, I don't know if you checked our beloved Wall Street Journal, but they just wrote an article on Zcash. So that's crossing. Yeah, that's just crossing into the into the public consciousness. It's a more secret version of Bitcoin and it's on a tear. At least that's one of the headlines that they played around with.
00;36;23;08 - 00;36;50;14
Chris
I think the only story really here, as far as I'm concerned, is that it's on a tear and that people needed some sort of layer one to pump. Like, to me, the benefits of a thing doesn't really help sell the thing. If the underlying use case is shallow until people like really start using blockchains, like the benefit of feature of a particular one just doesn't matter.
00;36;50;20 - 00;37;09;27
Aaron
Yeah, but I think now that we're seeing like almost like a commoditization of like ether based blockchain systems, which, which there is. Right. And I think it has a network effect and we'll probably win that. You're starting to see some differentiation on what I call more like features. Right. And that ones like privacy. So, you know, maybe there's some legs behind this.
00;37;09;29 - 00;37;36;17
Aaron
But I think you're right. It feels like every time we're like in an in or about to enter into a new cycle, there needs to be like some new ecosystem that people kind of rally behind. Last, last time, I guess, I guess that was Solana. That felt, at least to me, pretty inorganic. This feels like a little bit more organic to me, just because I think it's like a natural reaction from the crypto diehards and like the crypto capital to like, not have it all institutionalized.
00;37;36;17 - 00;37;41;18
Aaron
It feels a little bit different to me, but who knows? It's hard to know what's going on in the trenches and not.
00;37;41;24 - 00;38;08;14
Chris
This is where I tap the sign point at the Winkle VI twins. What was your vehicle called? Like Cypherpunks investments. Like stupid, like Arthur Hayes, like, you know, to me, this is very similar to, you know, who's running the bots on Twitter, who's who's boosting these playlists on Spotify, who's pushing the L1, right? Who can get a mid?
00;38;08;14 - 00;38;17;16
Chris
Asked GPT rapper, a $10 million investment. You know, I mean, I'm sorry, but like, this is all like Fugazi.
00;38;17;17 - 00;38;41;20
Pri
I don't know, I actually is it is. But it's also like, you know, clarity Act is likely to pass like Polly Market has the odds greater than like 60% or something. Last time I checked that means we're going to and like stablecoin bill is passed. That means like all financial transactions are going to be whatever pseudonymous and visible at least like which you don't have today with cash.
00;38;41;22 - 00;39;02;17
Pri
Yeah. Obviously with credit card most people use credit cards, but still like there's ways to transact the like privacy aspect of transacting as a counter reaction to the fact that, like, all transactions are going to be tracked is like, not that crazy to me. Like it's not even just cipher. I just feel like that's like, okay, everyone's seeing the Clarity Act pass and they're like, okay.
00;39;02;18 - 00;39;13;14
Aaron
It's just a core American privacy law, which is not as expansive as, let's say, Europe. But, you know, financial privacy has been part of that landscape for a very long time. So it's almost feels.
00;39;13;15 - 00;39;37;16
Chris
For American privacy law, such as the bill that just passed through the House, the House that can barely pass any bills, but who all decided to line up and agree the DHS can inhale like retail surveillance and targeted towards individuals like, you know, as part of like their dragnet for whatever the government's programs are and any given day, you think in this environment, Zcash is actually going to run.
00;39;37;16 - 00;40;04;25
Aaron
I think it's more like people see that it is an issue people care about, particularly in Europe. It has more of like a, you know, broad based support because they strengthen protections related to that. And so I think people are kind of crypto has like a slight political slight to significant like political edge to it. And I think that it's kind of signaling or the early signals of maybe people caring about were wanting to bolster privacy, even here in the States.
00;40;04;25 - 00;40;10;03
Aaron
So I don't know, Chris. I mean, I hear you on that. Like, I don't think we all want to live in a panopticon.
00;40;10;04 - 00;40;25;15
Chris
No, we don't, but, you know, our legislature and our political class certainly want us to. And they're doing what they want about it. But let me continue in my, like, cynical, black hearted streak. Did you see the USDA news this week in the hyper liquid ecosystem?
00;40;25;16 - 00;40;29;19
Aaron
I did, yeah, I thought, what did you think of that? I thought that was interesting.
00;40;29;23 - 00;40;54;21
Chris
Well, let's see, once again, retail crypto has been used as suckers, right? There was this whole governance thing around. Oh, the community gets decide what the stablecoin of the land is going to be. You know. And and like that was a huge kerfuffle last year. There was a lot of like VCs trying to astroturf their way in. Everyone rallied around.
00;40;54;21 - 00;41;23;21
Chris
Native labs is considered this big win. What is native Labs go and do they turn around and they sell this shit out at the Coinbase. So you got played again. Congrats. You know, like who the hell wants to show up for like a rigged fight? Knowing you're a seat holder, like your job is to fulfill a function in which whatever ends up winning gets co-opted and bought out, and your time and your energy went towards, you know, enriching a small group of insiders.
00;41;23;22 - 00;41;43;08
Aaron
Yeah. I mean, I think that that's some of the exhaustion people are feeling, right? It does feel like and I saw somebody musing on this on Twitter that the is kind of like for sub industries now like stablecoin and payments. That's kind of related to it like Bitcoin and just like crypto as an asset class, tokenization and on chain financial services, DeFi and then infra.
00;41;43;09 - 00;42;03;27
Aaron
You know, maybe there's kind of like the like the glimmers of the ongoing economy with like NFTs and some other stuff. I hear you, Chris. It does. I did also see that just because hyper liquid obviously has continued to attract a bunch of activity over the past couple of years. They're beginning to like look at it more from a regulatory perspective, purportedly.
00;42;03;27 - 00;42;12;25
Aaron
So maybe there's a little bit of a hammer that comes down there, or at least an attempt to bring that also to the mainstream. And this is just a piece of that story. Yeah.
00;42;12;26 - 00;42;38;20
Chris
You know, anytime you come big enough, everyone wants a piece of you and you got to pay your tax to, you know, interop in the world. Also, I think just point at Coinbase, right. Like Coinbase was early around certain things and then all their intents to like innovate in-house have largely flopped. And now they just need to turn towards a flavor of the week acquisition vehicle.
00;42;38;22 - 00;43;00;17
Aaron
Yeah. Or you know, like a roll up strategy of some sort makes make some sort of sense. Look, I do think things are going to change in crypto, like after the Clarity Act, I checked creates like roughly at 70%. It just crossed yesterday through the Senate Banking Committee. So it's going up for a vote. I'm assuming it wouldn't go up for a vote unless they thought it had enough support to to kind of pass just given the length of this negotiation.
00;43;00;17 - 00;43;03;05
Aaron
So I think things are going to get kind of interesting.
00;43;03;11 - 00;43;11;03
Chris
So guys, we're within a month of the World Cup. Yeah. Has there ever been like a major event in our backyard that you couldn't care less about?
00;43;11;03 - 00;43;24;02
Aaron
So I'm definitely going to watch it. I liked watching it last time. I thought it was more fun than I thought, but like, my my head's not there yet. I don't even, like, know the landscape of it, but I don't know. People do love football. Soccer, right?
00;43;24;03 - 00;43;25;09
Chris
So yeah.
00;43;25;09 - 00;43;28;13
Pri
I love it. And also those tickets are not cheap. Cheap.
00;43;28;14 - 00;43;43;00
Chris
Well, that's the part that gives me the IC is like the gouging around everything. And like with with all due respect, Aaron, it's hard to root for new Jersey. But when new Jersey stepped up and was like, no, it's going to be difficult to get from.
00;43;43;01 - 00;43;49;18
Aaron
It's easy to root for Jersey. You're rooting for Jersey every day. Chris. Jersey's like in your in your blood. You just don't know it.
00;43;49;19 - 00;43;52;26
Chris
Get out of here dude. Like I'm sorry man. You know.
00;43;52;27 - 00;43;55;18
Aaron
Just turn on the radio. You get the sweet sounds in new Jersey.
00;43;55;19 - 00;43;58;15
Chris
What was the last good piece of music new Jersey produced?
00;43;58;19 - 00;44;01;12
Aaron
I don't know, don't don't put me on the spot like that.
00;44;01;14 - 00;44;01;21
Chris
What?
00;44;01;22 - 00;44;03;05
Pri
Free Springsteen.
00;44;03;06 - 00;44;08;11
Aaron
There's more. There's more depth. It's everywhere. Just know Jersey's always watching you.
00;44;08;17 - 00;44;42;20
Chris
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I'm just saying like this. This World Cup is coming in like big bloated a lot of it on it, a lot of just massive extract. And then it's so huge and it spread out over like three different countries. I don't know, I can't really like past World Cups have always been great for like for me because like, I can just wander over to Astoria and it's a madhouse and you just pop into like, a random Columbian bar for a match and you can have the time of your life, you know, like.
00;44;42;22 - 00;45;00;17
Chris
And I don't know, like this year, it just feels like. I mean, they're doing a half time show now and they're like, dragging out God, it's like the dullest lineup on Earth. I don't know, like Shakira's headlining. It's Madonna, Shakira and pick like some other milquetoast has been.
00;45;00;19 - 00;45;07;26
Pri
I actually feel like that's actually entertaining for people. Chris. It's like when you said no one listens to Bruno Mars. I feel like people okay like that.
00;45;07;27 - 00;45;22;25
Chris
Yeah, but it's like the oh, how can we dilute the core product to maximize like attention and distribution and turn it into this, like, bloated carcass that you know, you're sick of before it even arrives?
00;45;22;26 - 00;45;40;08
Pri
Yeah. Fair. There are the thing that's kind of cool about it, which I think will be like uniting, is there's like these public viewings that New York City is doing, like in different boroughs, in like parts of the city, which is kind of cool. People will like, watch it together on like big screens across the city, I guess.
00;45;40;09 - 00;45;47;22
Pri
I don't know if that's fun for you guys, but I think I'm probably going to be going to one of those.
00;45;47;24 - 00;45;59;04
Chris
I think that's the funnest part of the World Cup, is you can just wander out and get in with a big group of people. You can pick a side for 90 minutes you had no allegiance to and get caught up in a feel good story.
00;45;59;05 - 00;46;01;13
Pri
Yeah, exactly.
00;46;01;15 - 00;46;15;02
Chris
Now, whether or not like that has the same effect when it's like the city of New York and, you know, you got to, like, walk through police barriers to get into whatever, like your little safe, contained like celebration zone is. I don't know.
00;46;15;03 - 00;46;32;20
Pri
I actually was like at the World Cup in high school, unintentionally. I was like traveling through Europe with my family. We were in Germany, and I think that like Germany or somewhere in Europe, it was like the World Cup and everyone was like wearing like their flags as capes. And it was like a cool vibe to see people's patriotism.
00;46;32;20 - 00;46;49;05
Pri
Like, I wonder how it's going to play out in the US. But it would like, to your point, like barricaded, you know, beers and high security and like I wonder if you'll see that spirit still, but it is actually a massive global event. I also just think no one in the US care is really about soccer. So it's just going to be like muted.
00;46;49;05 - 00;46;52;17
Pri
But if it was in South America or Europe it'd be like sick.
00;46;52;23 - 00;47;02;06
Chris
Yeah I mean I'm keeping an eye on how this goes. Does a World Cup jump to shark. Is it like jumped the shark provable I.
00;47;02;06 - 00;47;16;05
Aaron
Don't know I mean to me it's like the US should play. I mean it's a huge sport. It's like it's a great moment for humanity like that. So many people are focused on it. Like we should play in those those games. Frankly, I'd love to see us win it at some point. Why not?
00;47;16;08 - 00;47;24;07
Chris
Well, China's going to develop Nvidia level chips before we even make like the quarterfinals of the World Cup.
00;47;24;09 - 00;47;26;21
Aaron
So that is completely fair.
00;47;26;22 - 00;47;28;01
Chris
But dare to dream.
00;47;28;04 - 00;47;41;13
Aaron
Yeah, but like why not? We should. I mean, like like we should. We can compete there. I mean, a lot of Americans play soccer, like, as much as, like some smaller countries. So we should we should have the talent there to do it. I believe in us.
00;47;41;14 - 00;47;44;08
Pri
I think there's just not like an audience that cares.
00;47;44;09 - 00;47;53;27
Aaron
Well, I guess we're going to find out, right? Like, that's like whether we care here or not, it seems like enough people do or they want to expand that market. So I guess we'll find out.
00;47;53;28 - 00;47;55;02
Pri
We shall.
00;47;55;04 - 00;48;19;03
Aaron
I did see one other thing that purportedly, you know, China is building a pregnancy robot. I've noticed that a lot of this, like low birth rate stuff that was so big, I'd say like on the internet, like what, a year ago? It's now like bleeding itself, bleeding its way into, like the, the media class. Like I've heard a couple like podcasts and I guess there's some books that are coming out related to it.
00;48;19;03 - 00;48;20;16
Aaron
So kind of interesting to.
00;48;20;17 - 00;48;48;09
Pri
Like, seen a lot of talk about IVF and egg freezing and all of that. Like I think like Riva posted something about how like the modern IVF processes and like surrogacy and all of that, like, I feel like all of those kind of it's like, not like alternative options, but like New Age kind of approaches to having like, family planning is I don't know what the right terminology here is, but like, I feel like people are starting to talk about that a lot more.
00;48;48;15 - 00;48;57;03
Pri
I agree, Aaron, I noticed that on my timeline too. I don't know why all of a sudden though it feels like random. Or maybe I'm just paying attention to it. I don't know, but.
00;48;57;04 - 00;49;10;06
Aaron
It feels it was a I was in some podcasts had they had an academic on and he said the two most important things for the next 30 years is AI and the birth rate. I was like, oh, that's an interesting framing.
00;49;10;07 - 00;49;35;17
Pri
So well, I read like I read an article like Jasmine Sun wrote this blog post about, like, you know, the upside down triangle in China and how like, weird it is to be like a young adult in China. And they're calling there was a term for it in her article, but she was writing about it, and she was basically saying that like, children are going back home and getting paid by their parents and grandparents, basically to take care of them.
00;49;35;17 - 00;50;07;27
Pri
So they're like, not they don't like, have jobs. Their jobs is like being an adult and moving home and taking care of their family. They're calling them full time children. That's the terminology for it. But we can go into it. I was actually starting to research that today, because I think this phenomena is like happening in other countries to like I was reading, there's like a term in I can't pull it up now, but there's like a term in Italy for it as well, where kids are living at home and didn't care of their families is also there's like a Japanese term for it too.
00;50;07;28 - 00;50;32;03
Pri
So there's even like vernacular around this concept of like kids being at home, taking care of their family, which I think is I guess it's not new. Like this isn't. Yeah, they call in South Korea, they call it kangaroo in Spain, Portugal, Greece, €31.3. Average age of leaving home. So people aren't leaving home until like they're like early 30s in Italy they call it maman, which is basically like living at home.
00;50;32;03 - 00;50;55;27
Pri
And 67% of Italian 18 to 30 fils live with their parents, which is insane. That's like 70% of Italian, 18 to 34 living with their parents in Japan. They call it heco, komori and parasitology, which is like parasite singles, stands for parasite single. So, you know, it's not as bad in the US, but like if you look at other countries, it's becoming a very normal phenomenon.
00;50;55;27 - 00;51;11;05
Pri
And part of that is just like demographics, like there's just so many old people to take care of and not enough young people to have jobs. So they're just like, I guess I'll live at home and take care of my family, which is kind of more of like a second, third order effect of like the birth rate crisis.
00;51;11;05 - 00;51;14;04
Pri
But I've been seeing that come up a bit more to.
00;51;14;05 - 00;51;25;01
Aaron
Yeah, I think maybe we're starting to see the contours of what the big policy debates will be over the next couple of years between like AI and some of this stuff. Maybe that's just what what we're seeing kind of play out again.
00;51;25;03 - 00;51;49;02
Pri
I will say like small sample size, but like of my really, really good girlfriend groups, the number of people with three children and some of whom are contemplating their fourth is like shocking to me. I'm like, how are you guys affording this like be compared to the average? Like I feel like that's it's pretty high. So yeah, it's just kind of interesting to see that play out.
00;51;49;03 - 00;51;51;02
Chris
You got to pick up the slack for everyone else, I.
00;51;51;02 - 00;51;51;29
Pri
Guess I know.
00;51;52;01 - 00;51;53;28
Aaron
Yeah. Like get on that Chris.
00;51;54;01 - 00;52;01;06
Chris
My I have two kids. I'm done. Get on that. I did my job, I replaced us.
00;52;01;11 - 00;52;16;15
Pri
I feel like Gen X had two kids, but, like, it's weird to me that these, like, millennials are talking about three or for my friend who lives in Baltimore is telling me that like in her neighborhood, like a lot of people have four kids. And I'm like, what? What? Like I don't know if it's because I'm like, mind warped because we all live in the city, but I'm like four for kids, normal.
00;52;16;16 - 00;52;25;05
Pri
Like I'm one of three, but like, I don't know. I don't remember, like a lot of my peers growing up, having three other siblings and being one of four. But okay.
00;52;25;10 - 00;52;28;18
Chris
I feel like is Gen X like three was common?
00;52;28;20 - 00;52;50;08
Aaron
Yeah, I think it is. I think it just kind of ebbs and flows and I think to me like my where my head goes with where everything's going, I think that ultimately, like people are going to just work either less or differently, you know, something not exactly like remote, but like where you're a little bit more grounded at home for a variety of reasons.
00;52;50;08 - 00;53;12;06
Aaron
You're like tending things more versus, you know, like crushing through stuff because that's kind of the flow if you boil it down. And I think people will want to like, you know, build and support and will have the capability to support, just like larger families. I just think that that grounds the that everybody, obviously, but a lot of people.
00;53;12;07 - 00;53;13;19
Aaron
So yeah.
00;53;13;20 - 00;53;39;27
Chris
There's definitely like I don't know, as someone who like my kids are in their teen years like we've gotten over the hump. There's something very nice and very steady about just like having people in the house, you know, having that like, I don't know, familiar routine, like, you know, seeing your kids grow up, you know, things, you know, like it's a very comforting, fulfilling, rewarding, you know, thing.
00;53;40;00 - 00;54;08;17
Chris
The what I'm most curious about in all of this, right, is I feel like the millennial strategy around this. And, you know, I know a lot of this was forced upon them versus like matters of choice. But some of this was matters of choice. Right? Was like to delay things until you had the financial cushion. And then these are sort of like achievement events in life based on reaching certain status points.
00;54;08;18 - 00;54;30;08
Chris
Like I see a lot of people who are, you know, 5 or 10 years younger than me with three year olds in my neighborhood. And I'm just like, how? Like they look so tired. They like it just I just don't see how, like, that strategy, you know, like this current posture of if you win, then you can get married, then you can have kids.
00;54;30;08 - 00;54;31;29
Chris
I just don't see that as enduring.
00;54;32;01 - 00;54;59;15
Aaron
Yeah. And it's not enduring. Right. Like it's not working because people are not making those choices. I don't think the incentives are properly aligned, but I just think it moves a little bit slower than the rapid fire speed of the internet that we're used to, or modern life. So it takes its time to work out. But my my sense is people don't stay collectively miserable for too long, at least in, like in freer societies, they vote.
00;54;59;15 - 00;55;00;22
Chris
For the optimist.
00;55;00;23 - 00;55;03;03
Aaron
You got to be. It's an optimistic time.
00;55;03;04 - 00;55;13;11
Chris
Well, there are more Americans abroad than ever before who apparently did vote with their feet. And I don't know, something's got to give, but we'll see.
00;55;13;12 - 00;55;14;18
Aaron
Yeah, completely.
00;55;14;19 - 00;55;23;12
Chris
By the way, just to put a bow on something, you mentioned a Chinese pregnancy robot, and then you didn't elaborate. What on earth are you talking about?
00;55;23;13 - 00;55;24;01
Pri
I'm like, where do.
00;55;24;01 - 00;55;28;19
Aaron
I get what I saw? I don't know if I'd want want to be the first one out of the gate using that.
00;55;28;20 - 00;55;33;07
Pri
Yeah, I don't want to be the first, but sounds like.
00;55;33;09 - 00;55;33;27
Aaron
It comes out.
00;55;34;00 - 00;55;41;07
Chris
I'm sorry. It's like robot. Is this robot the one carrying the child to gestation? Like, what's going on here?
00;55;41;07 - 00;55;44;26
Aaron
I think that's that's the headline, Chris. That's that's it.
00;55;44;28 - 00;55;47;24
Pri
So just people won't be having their own kids anymore?
00;55;47;27 - 00;55;52;19
Aaron
I don't know, I guess. Yeah. I don't know how that's. Is it Gattaca. Does it look like.
00;55;52;21 - 00;55;58;07
Pri
That actually would actually increase the birth birthrate? Seriously.
00;55;58;11 - 00;56;00;18
Chris
Sourcing outsourcing is the answer free?
00;56;00;19 - 00;56;21;22
Pri
I mean, yeah, I actually think about like, I mean, this isn't my circle, but my friend has like a very kind of fancy circle of friends in San Francisco. And there's a lot of female founders and, you know, a good portion of them have had because, like, they feel like they can't like, do startups and go through a pregnancy and, and take maternity leave, like in the same way.
00;56;21;23 - 00;56;33;25
Pri
Again, that's a very, very, very specific group of people. But like I, I thought that was like interesting. Like that's been going on there for a while, like before surrogacy was like more I guess talked about.
00;56;33;26 - 00;56;57;01
Chris
Yeah. No, that was something like I picked that up on my radar from time to time, like West Coast striver entrepreneurs, often South Asian surrogacy. It's a weird little like corner of the world. Like I bumped into a bunch back in the day and I was just like, okay. I don't know who your friend group is, but like, I, I think this is definitely.
00;56;57;04 - 00;57;16;14
Pri
For all like, white female founders. I mean, this isn't my friend group, it's a friend of a friend, but she's telling me about it. It's like her. And, like, I mean, they're all married to other really successful founders. Like, I can kind of tell you offline, but, like, it's, like neither of them have time for it. So they're just like, you know, doing it that way.
00;57;16;14 - 00;57;35;22
Pri
But yeah, it's funny because like on the what, East Coast, you don't really hear about that as much. Like even like successful New York women are generally like was talking to my friend about them. Like even successful in New York, women are not necessarily leaning on. But on the West Coast, it feels like way more common for women who are like founders and stuff to do it.
00;57;35;22 - 00;57;41;26
Pri
I can't tell if just that's just like startup life though. Anyways, we're like digressing here. We should probably not go too deep into this.
00;57;41;27 - 00;57;46;09
Chris
Let's not step on the landmine of sorry to see preferences at the end of the show.
00;57;46;12 - 00;57;50;26
Pri
Yeah, yeah, like I do think the robot thing could could has legs.
00;57;50;27 - 00;57;53;09
Aaron
Yeah, it's going to produce some legs. It sounds like too.
00;57;53;10 - 00;58;01;14
Chris
So this is robot like live off site or like is it around your home. Do you keep tabs on it? Do you want to see it on a daily basis?
00;58;01;20 - 00;58;17;13
Aaron
I mean, Chris, this is what you and Chris should have been pitching to me and Derek. That's what I'm hearing. So I don't know the answers to it. I just literally saw a tweet. And I know that that's an area that that's been a minor interest for. So good to know that the Chinese are on this on the case here.
00;58;17;15 - 00;58;25;24
Aaron
So every baby will will come out with like, I'm not going to go there. All right. Why don't we call it.
00;58;25;27 - 00;58;29;09
Chris
All right. Yes. We've come to the end of the road.
00;58;29;10 - 00;58;48;20
Pri
We've done it. Cool. Well, I'll introduce the podcast today. So welcome to Net Society today of me, Chris, Aaron and Derek talking all things tech, culture, crypto, AI and more. Just a quick reminder. These thoughts and opinions are own and not of our employer and none of this is advice.