Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to, Its All Your Fault On True Story of a, the one and only podcast focused on high conflict human interactions, which usually involve someone with a high conflict personality. I'm Megan Hunter, and I'm here with
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Bob. Hi everybody.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
We're the co-founders of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. In this episode, we'll talk about when to stop trying with high conflict people. There is a time, but first, a couple of notes. If you have questions for our q and a sessions about your high conflict situation, send them to podcast high conflict institute.com or on our website@highconflictinstitute.com slash podcast, where you'll also find the show notes and links. Please give us a raider review and tell a friend about us, especially if they're dealing with a high conflict situation. We're very, very grateful.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
So, Bill, let's talk about when to stop trying with high conflict people. And you know, we hear from, uh, professionals like attorneys, uh, mediators and others who aren't really sure when to stop trying with a high conflict client. And, um, the same with, you know, a situation maybe in a family or, or with a, a friend or, you know, a community situation. And there, there is some really good information here to, to be had about, you know, when to stop. And I know, you know, I've heard just today I heard from, uh, a couple of seasoned mediator lawyers who explained that they, they feel like they failed in a, um, a very high conflict mediation because they didn't, um, they, uh, they weren't even, they knew where it broke down. Um, but they wish they would've stopped sooner, trying sooner, but they just kind of missed it. And I, you know, kind of posed to them that perhaps they were feeling too responsible for the outcome because we, you know, we're problem solvers, we're in the workplace, or you know, we're, we're intelligent people, we're skilled people. Um, but we, so we want to fix something. We want to problem solve it. We want to make it work. And that actually can end up backfiring, I think. Would you agree?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Well, it, it, yes, in sense it can backfire because what happens is you keep reinforcing your connection with the person, even though they're not, not doing their part, they're not having the kind of relationship that you either wanna have or need to have. Like you said, as a professional or an institution like a university might have a high conflict employee, they give another chance and another chance, and then they finally say, We have to fire this person. And then the person sues them because they're just so deep into all this. So I think there's a few principles that will help, whether you're a professional or an ordinary relationship, family member, friend, et cetera. And the first key principle here is that people with personality disorders, which there's a lot of overlap with high conflict personalities, not everybody with a personality disorders high conflict. They don't all have a target or blame, but many of them do.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
But the key thing is they have an enduring pattern of dysfunctional interpersonal behavior. And when you think about an enduring pattern, that means that they don't really change. Now if you're their lawyer or you're their mediator, you might be able to help them resolve a dispute. You might be able to help them, um, you know, change some of the rough edges. You know, we consult with some of the high tech companies and they say, we have a lot of people with, with sharp elbows. And so we give them tools to kind of take off some of the rough edges. But there's some people that don't even do that. And there's some people that won't, won't schedule with you, won't meet with you. They make you jump through hoops. You know, I'll only meet with you after nine in the evening. Well, I don't work after nine in the evening, so you know, you're gonna need to come in before six in the evening.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
And so it's really about, first of all, understanding this difficulty changing for high conflict people. And if you have a family member and you go, you know, it's, it's time. Like let's say a young adult, it's time that the young adult's going to need to be more responsible. We can't solve all their problems and we can't fix them. If they have a personality disorder, high conflict personality, we can help them. We can get them some help. And if they're motivated, you know, there's people with personality disorders that really outgrown those by learning skills. But if you're working with them and you're trying to help them and they're just not, not changing, they're just resisting anything positive, there comes a point where you really need to stop trying. Cause somebody once said that two sickies don't make a wellie. So it has two people. I like it.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Two people that aren't functioning well isn't as good as having yourself function at your best. So you need to set limits. And that's one of the four big skills of managing people with our cars method, connecting, analyzing, responding and setting limits. But just focusing on when to stop. So one of the signs is that you're working harder than your client and therapists. Now that's where I learned this was as a therapist. They said, when you're working harder than your client, your client may have stopped working. On the other hand, um, you don't necessarily wanna fire your clients. And right now I'm talking to professionals or people with customers, you know, you don't wanna fire them. Just say, I can't do much more for you. Um, I'll stick with you. You know, I've had this like as a mediator. I, I once had client that that said, you know, this won't work.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
I'm leaving. And I said, Oh, okay. Goodbye. And then they said a week later, Why did I abandon them? And they were the ones that quit. But what I realized is I should have said, Let's schedule another meeting. And you can cancel that with 48 hours notice. But don't give up on them. But also don't exhaust yourself. Say, Okay, let's see what you come up with. Next time I'm out of ideas. I may not have any suggestions, but you might have some new ideas. So let's stay connected. And so therapists learn to do that As a mediator, I learned to do that. I don't fire my mediation clients, they have to fire me, but I also tell them I can't work harder than I am. I'm out of ideas. I'll meet with you, but I'm not sure I can help you. I don't wanna take your money, um, when I can't think of anything that will help you, but I will meet with you.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
And what we see, sometimes high conflict people just need more time. And the next time they come back and they do have some new ideas, but let's say it's a family member or a friend, is you want to kind of ease yourself back with them. That's one thing. Don't be abrupt at cutting off a high conflict person. You may just keep them in your life, but at more of an arm's length, you know, so Uncle Joe is somebody you see at the holidays, but you no longer try to get together for dinner with him, you know, three times a year. Um, you may have a friend that you've done things, gone to movies, you know, had dinners doing all this stuff. And you may need to say, you know, I really can't do all of that. My schedule's getting busier. But you don't wanna do, when you're setting limits like this on a friendship or family member is you don't wanna blame them and don't blame yourself. This is true for professionals and businesses with customers is don't make it your fault and don't make it their fault is just say, you know, schedules getting tighter or, you know, we have have different goals now. So it really makes sense that, you know, I'm gonna be going in this new direction and we won't be able to see each other as often.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
And that's because it, it keeps it from being personal, right? Which, uh, will feel like cri criticism to them or that they've done something bad or wrong, which will bring up resistance and aggression,
Speaker 2 (09:16):
Perhaps very possible. Cause defensiveness, they're like on the edge of defensiveness all the time. And that's why you don't wanna do this. On the other hand, you don't wanna go back and forth. Some people say, you know, this really isn't working out. I really can't. And the other person burst into tears. They say, Oh, you know, I, nothing will change now. In fact, let's, let's go to dinner now and let's, And so people come back in to soothe the high conflict person they're trying to get distance from. Well, that makes the high conflict person more vulnerable and gonna be more difficult when you really do say, I got a back off. So it's just a one direction. There's back off, maybe it's little steps and maybe it's not complete. You keep something going, but if you abruptly blame somebody, blame yourself or abruptly cut somebody off at the knees and theyre high conflict, you're gonna be hearing about it for months or years. So gotta be careful about that. It ease yourself in and ease yourself out of relationships in general. And that'll help you avoid high conflict conflict. .
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Interesting. Um, I wanted to go back to the very, the first one you mentioned, um, about, uh, the, one of the first signs is when you're working harder than your client. And I know I found myself in this situation on more than one occasion. Uh, maybe I'm a slow learner, but it, it's just so natural sometimes if you're, you know, to try to explain something or you just keep working, working, working, and you finally have that, that moment where you think, Oh man, I've been just . I'm putting so much more time and effort into this than the other person. And they're not really getting, making any progress. They're not, they're not working on it. The other, um, uh, other point, other sign I guess is when a group of people are working harder. So let's say you're on a legal case or you're on an HR team and everyone's working so hard on this, um, there can almost be like a feeding frenzy type of, of mentality I've seen where like, you know, we're going to, to brainstorm together to really help this one person. And I mean, you're like, your hourly rate now is times five because we have four or five people working on this and everyone brings their own ideas to it. And so I think that's perhaps another sign when you know when to stop trying with a high conflict person. And it's no different than if you're just, just an individual. But I, I've seen this
Speaker 2 (11:54):
With groups and I think, you know, we get into the term codependency, which people are familiar with, with substance abuse, but very much you can become codependent with high conflict people and try to make excuses for them and say, you know, next time you've gotta be careful what you say, but this time I told everybody you just had a bad day. So things that everyone's calmed down. Well, organizations can become codependent. And when you really see this is when it's somebody higher up in an organization and they're in a position of leadership and the organization doesn't want to be disrupted by getting rid of this person. Or let's say, you know, they have tenure in a university or something, a department head that's impossible, but you can't just fire them. Um, so everybody ends up walking on eggshells or maybe suggesting and hinting and, and everyone's working so hard and this person just being who they are.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
And the, you know, cases I've read because, you know, high conflict people, I think about universities that they, they like suing universities cuz they got deep pockets and they need to be fired at some point in many cases. And what I observe is the, the institution, it's not just universities, Hospitals do this other government agencies is they rated two or three years too long that it'd be so much easier if they could have nipped this in the bud and see, okay, we're seeing serious signs of high conflict behavior. We're not gonna just move them into a different department. We're gonna give them some coaching and they have to change. And if we don't see change, then they're out. Something like that. Slowly, I think organizations are learning this. You gotta catch this earlier and earlier and earlier because some people won't change.
Speaker 1 (13:59):
And you know, when someone has tenure, it's typically life and you know, the university's going to want to avoid that lawsuit, right? Um, and, and they know it, it's going to come if they try to do something. So it really behooves them to, to use the skills, I guess. Um, so what else, what other, when, when else would you know when to stop trying?
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Well, I think, and this may be more true with friendships or family members, is when you start feeling resentful that when you start feeling resentful is a sign that you're starting to be codependent and you're doing work that they should be doing. You know, I think of this, this isn't a high conflict example, but years and years ago I was a kindergarten teacher, and this is before Velcro came in. So you can tell how long ago this was . And so one of the things we taught the kids was how to tie their shoes. And a lot of the kids would come the beginning of the school year, they didn't know how to tie their shoes. And we'd teach them and they'd learn and they'd do a good job. And then, you know, mom would pick up the child and, and Johnny Shoelaces are untied and mom says, Oh, you know, let me put your foot up here.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
I'll tie your shoe. And I'll say, Johnny, Johnny tell her you can do it. You can tie your shoe. And Johnny's like, Well, it's okay if she does it. And I said, No, you know, to do it. Don't. And that's, that's like Cody pendency when we're tying people's shoes, who know how to tie their own shoes. I mean, if somebody is sick and you're a nurse or a doctor and and there's something they need that only you can provide, then you provide it. But when people can provide for themselves but they want you to do it, that's codependency and that's a lot of high conflict people. So when you feel resentful, you're doing what they really could do for themselves. That's definitely one of the big warning signs.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Interesting. Uh, I hadn't really thought about that before. Um, it brings to mind how about if your, your overreacting, is this a sign of when to stop trying?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Yeah, especially when you're asking yourself, am I overreacting then that there's a good chance you may be that I'm, I'm, I'm overreacting. And that may be you're helping out too much to soothe your own anxiety. And that's the thing you go, if this person keeps doing this, this is gonna blow up. It's gonna look bad on me on them. And so you may overreact and say, I have to fix this, rather than saying, you know what, this could blow up and you would look bad and I wanna help you avoid that. So you need to make some changes or we're gonna have to stop working together cuz you may be doing things that I can't really help you with. And so all of this is setting limits, becoming self-aware and also not thinking of it as a failure. I, I like to tell, like my mediation clients, I kept track for a period of time and I said with the methods we use what we call new ways for mediation developed over the last 12 years, I'm much more successful, but I don't think I've ever been better than 90% settlement of mediations. And that's a good rate, but there's 10% of people that I know, they walk outta my office, I'll never see them again. And I tried so hard, but you have to let them go and not feel like you fail. It's that there's a lot of stuff going on and you're not responsible for the outcome. And that's so important, as you said.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
I think that's one of the most important things to keep in in mind is you, you can't be responsible for someone who has an entirely different way of operating. Um, despite our best skills, sometimes you're just not going to be able to, to help in the way that you, you'd like to help. And so you kind of can back, back away gradually, like you said. And um, and, and don't think of it as a, as a fail, there's probably some things they pick up from you that will probably help them in some other aspect of their life or maybe you learn something. And
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Then also going with that is don't try to be a hero. That, that's a trap that many of us fall into is like, I'm going to impress people. Like let's say I get a court referred high conflict divorce mediation. Well, I want that judge to know that I'm incredible. I'm like the best mediator in the city. And you know what, no one has been able to be successful and I wasn't either. And so, you know, you're not a hero. This is just daily life. You do your part, you grow, you learn, you do better and better with time, but there's some things you just can't change, especially people with an enduring pattern of behavior. You're not gonna change them all.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Right? Right. So you have one minute left, Bill to think of one last tip, for when to know when to start up trying. And I think, you know, something that's come to mind for, for me is I, I guess it's, it's, it's sort of to, to not beat yourself up. You know, when, like you said, don't, don't think of yourself as a failure, but, but don't beat yourself up and turn the fingers, you know, back in your own direction so much. I think a lot of people feel so responsible, um, and, and, and like they've failed. So, um, I guess that would be one of the major tips that I think I see a lot of people really needing help with. Any last thoughts?
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Sometimes it helps to picture what you would be doing if you weren't doing all this work for this person. And it's like, well, I'll just keep at it and maybe that'll be helpful to say, okay, what if I didn't keep at it and was careful and ease the person down to a, a more distant part of my life, What would I be doing with that time? And so that made me also an inspiration. You know, I really wanna do that project. I wanted to do such and such and you know, when I weigh them, it's really is time to start backing off a bit.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Good. Good. Yeah, there's that, that law of diminishing returns, uh, that kind of comes into mind, my mind, um, realizing that, wow, I'm really spending a lot of time on something that is not going to have success, um, and good ROI and, um, and I could be, you know, like skiing or reading a book. Right? The
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Last thing I wanna say is when you do back off or fire a client if you have to or just stop working so hard, do it with empathy, attention, and respect. Because high conflict people just lack self awareness of how they're affecting people. And you, you've gotta have some empathy for them. So make sure that you do do its gently and with respect, with empathy and give them some attention, but reduce it over time
Speaker 1 (21:25):
And that will bring down the risk and keep everyone, uh, you know, safer as well. So good, good one, Bill. I love
Speaker 3 (21:32):
That.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
So we hope you picked up some tips that'll help you know when to stop trying, whether you're in the professional environment or with a friend or family member. Um, next week I'll be asking Bill about the high conflict personality theory that he developed. Um, in the meantime, send your questions to podcast@highconflictinstitute.com or submit them to high conflict institute.com/podcast. Tell your friends about us and we'd be very grateful if you leave a review wherever you listen to our podcast. Until then, keep striving toward the missing piece.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
It's All Your Fault is a production of True Story FM Engineering by Andy Nelson. Music, by Wolf Samuels, John Coggins and Z Moran. Find the show, show notes and transcripts at True story fm or high conflict institute.com/podcast. If your podcast app allows ratings and reviews, please consider doing that for our show.