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Meaningful stories and conversations from the fringe of societal norms.
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(Applause)
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(Music)
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(Music)
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permit to think everyone.
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We're honored today to have two distinguished guests. We've got
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Tom by the founder.
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And editor
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of the Drake magazine, which is infamous in the world of fly fishing. Tom also
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was a former employee at West
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Bank anglers and Jackson Hole and also the managing editor of paddle.
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Senior editor of skiing and editor in chief of powder magazine. And we're honored to have him and also Paul pocket
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accomplished sporting artists illustrator and renowned angler.
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Paul is based in Charleston,
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South Carolina now. And Tom is in Denver, Colorado. So thank you guys so much for joining me. I appreciate it. Thanks for having us. Thank you.
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We should probably go, I mean, I, to a moment in time, right? Like I was
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at the West Bank Anglers 40th anniversary party and kind of turned around and I'm like, is that Paul and Tom?
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And doing about face and went over to you guys and was like, holy shit.
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didn't know you guys were going to be there. And that was, there was a lot of cool stuff I thought that happened, you know, at that party.
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you know, there's some things we can fix in the future. But for the most part, I thought it was a great event. And it was kind of a, I don't know, it was really cool that
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you guys were there, I guess now I didn't know you guys were coming. And so to run in bumping you guys and catch up.
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that's kind of where this was spawned from this idea,
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we were previously literally talking about doing a kind of a fly shop episode, instead of, you know, travels around the world. So
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yeah, it was great. It was great to see you guys at the party. And did you have any thoughts on bring back any memories running to anybody that you hadn't seen in a bit?
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Well, I will say first of all, it was fun because Tom and I were kind of sewn at the hip that day and picked him up at the airport. And then we were looking for the brew pub and we actually got lost. Not lost. We just got turned around. We couldn't remember what road it was on. And Tom even helped build the place back in 1887. But we had a blast. We lived on Second Street.
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Yeah. So it's just, you know, but we showed up to that party together. It was really cool. And definitely saw some familiar faces. And I thought the party went great, man. It was really cool to been there really happy.
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Yeah, I don't know. I can't speak for Paul, but I didn't know I'd be there either. And that was just a last minute call from Paul. It just sounded like a really great event and everything you mentioned and being able to see everyone.
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hopping a plane from Denver and my shuttle driver was right there waiting for me. And we had a great couple of days up there. Was Kim the one that kind of, I know Kim kind of talked me into it. Not that I needed a lot of talking into it. Also, my buddy that lives there let us stay at his house. So it was kind of a no brainer. But Kim called me a week out
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and I knew it was happening. I just didn't think I'd be able to go. And then Kim kind of lit a fire in her ass. And then she said, Tom was thinking about going and then someone else I think. And I was like, okay, I'm going. Let's do it.
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Yeah, well, thanks for coming.
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cool party. I think as we talked about
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little bit over email, like
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weekends later, like I'm at the panic show on top of Snow King. And Dwayne Betts gets up there. I'm like, yeah, he just played at the fly shop.
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No big deal. Whatever.
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That was really. They were really good.
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Yeah. And
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it was super interesting because we, of course, were scrambling. We thought we had enough time to plan it. You know, the point of sale system went down
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because we got held hostage by strike, which
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awesome. And nice. Yeah, it was great. And
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in the shop at the time was the younger crowd was saying, do not advertise this. And I was like, don't like, so we're going to throw a party, but not
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say anything. Like locally, like on a local standpoint. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, well, we got to and they're like, people will know. And then, you know, it's interesting afterwards because I was like,
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the the young crowd seems to usually be right these days. But I don't know. I mean, it was there's definitely enough people there, but
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we didn't we didn't advertise. Turns out all you had to do is tell Campbell. It is cheap. Yeah. I think that's who we heard it from. Well, and the deadlocks were like kind of giving they were like, no, no, don't ever. They said it as well.
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It's like just so there wouldn't be a thousand people. Was that the idea? Like otherwise, a thousand people would be there. Yeah. But didn't you guys think there was enough room for for more? I mean, I mean, I guess it was
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was a great size. I mean, there was plenty of people there, but you could still make your way around and, you know, talk to the people that was there for West Bank. The music was just a happy surprise for me. But they were
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really good. And I just remember I was kind of watching on the side of my eye and all of a sudden, I'm like, oh my God, these guys are really, really good. I didn't realize he was on stage at the time. First, rain bad. So that makes sense.
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I was just looking around in that parking lot because I've got so many memories of me coming back from the mangy moose at two in the morning and just parking my car in there and just knowing that Kim would just tap on my windshield the next morning and wake me up. And the fact that you had like a music festival in that parking lot was really cool. I like the vibe was great. And y'all staff is awesome. I've known Colin now for a few years, just from coming and hanging out. And y'all got a good crew there. But just the fact there was a stage in like a little fair going on in that parking lot, because I just remember it being so but it felt huge that day. It was great. It was really cool.
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Yeah. I mean, I was, you know, we had, we've obviously I'm the new guy on the block, and we haven't done anything like that. I had no clue, but that is a great segue to,
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what years you guys were there and who was, who are you working with at West Bank at that time?
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let you go first, Tommy.
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Okay. Well, I was working up at Grand Teton Lodge Company. I started there in 92 and 93. And that was just rowing the
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Reynolds mostly. And then I started part time there. 94 was my first year I did trips, maybe 95. And then I had a couple years of full time guiding. And then
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I was I had an outdoors column in the guide. But then I was hired as a sports editor there.
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So that did take up a little bit of my time. But
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I made more in a week of guiding than I did in a month of the guide. So it was hard for them to keep me in there. But I always did both those jobs, but didn't have as full time
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with the fish guiding.
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I ended up
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leaving there in late
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1999, early 2000. So I was in town for about eight years
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that I had in guiding on the scenic water. So I didn't have to start fish guiding until I could see that it was time to start. I didn't have a set date that I had to make the switch over. Of course, it took me about five scenic trips to get paid when I got paid on a flying fishing trip. But, you know, I mean, some of those, there was a couple of really, really big years there in 1996, 1997. And they were pretty late seasons. So I was able to kind of stall the guiding until it seemed appropriate.
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Yeah, fun. Fun side note there is right out this window.
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My neighbor is Fred McCabe.
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Yeah, Julie. And I still catch up once in a while. It's pretty, pretty cool. I actually have some Elizabeth McCabe benches. Yeah, it's really cool. Yeah, the guide news is doing some sort of
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gathering to this summer. It's on a Thursday. I'm not sure if I'm able to make it up there or not. But there were so many people who came through that
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one of the two newspapers and
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either went on to continue their career, Curtis Hubbard and, you know, a lot of the people that worked at either magazine had a lot of success and still are having a lot of success at other outlets
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news and guide itself.
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Yeah, that's super cool. And so you guys didn't overlap or you overlap, but you were working in Dallas or? Yeah, so I started working at the Dallas West I was like
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the first or second employee and they had such a huge catalog business that they were getting so much business out of Texas. So they decided to open a store in Dallas and I worked there the summer before I started at North Texas and then continued that for six years. And yeah, six years. I'm not a doctor yet, but I had the six year college run.
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then that last year I just decided that I was just going to move out to Jackson and the idea was to be a guide. I wanted to be a guide.
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But when I moved up there, I saw just honestly how hard these guides work and they never have days off or at least plan days off. And I was working four days in the shop and getting three days off in a row. And it was like the most amazing thing in the world. And I was becoming buddies with these guides and they're just like,
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I'm not going to say they're always but they were just like, man, I wish they were always wishing they could go fishing, and they were working their butts off for three months. And so I just, I kind of
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West Bank for about a week. And there was this one magazine that had been sitting at the end of the counter, like just ball by itself. And I walked up to it. I'd started finally looking through it. And I do think it was that illustration you were telling me, Tom, I forget what were your friends. And it was either the first or second issue. Okay. I think it was like the 99 issue and that magazine had been sitting there for about a year, I guess, because I was there in 2000. And I remember saying to Kim, I was like, this magazine only, this magazine only comes out once a year. Like I go, this, this is never going to work. Like this doesn't make sense. This is garbage. And I hadn't even opened a page of it yet. And, and what, what, what took me in was that I think it still said the $10 for bait fishermen on it or whatever. I was like, okay, I dig this. So that was my
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interaction with the Drake. And then you came in
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I guess two or three months later to bring the fall issue or the next issue. And that's where I met Tom when I was working in the shop. And he was bringing a stack of new magazines personally, personally delivered them.
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It was exciting. So that's where I met Tom. So, so is it, is it Tom, is it safe to say that, I mean, because you were, if you left, I mean, in 98 is when the Drake was founded, right? So I was in Wilson at the time. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. And, um,
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yeah, there, there was no, I mean, the Drake was a annual magazine for seven years before I ever did a second one. So you weren't wrong, Paul. Matter of fact,
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I put out an issue in 98 and put out an issue in 99. And then I was broke. I didn't pull it out in 2000.
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And then it's all of things that happened along the way. I mean, there wouldn't have been a third one if it wasn't for paddler magazines. I went there and they just ended up publishing that third issue as a seventh issue of paddler in St. Mary. And so that's how it first got into Barnes and Noble and sold. Like, I didn't even know how to start getting it into, I mean, me bringing it in there was basically whatever friends of mine that
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had a truck or were driving to Montana and do a fly shop and drops them off. That was basically my delivery system the first two or three years. I didn't, you know, ship them out or anything like that. Yeah. So that, that, it was a while. Not until I left powder in 2007, did it go to twice a year and then three times and then quarterly.
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Yeah. Wow. That's cool. I remember, I mean, obviously, like I said, the new kid and I mean, but watched it, watched it from, you know, a competitor seat for a while. But what I do remember is
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Christmas back in Jersey and my sister opened up a box underneath the Christmas tree
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and she was like very stoked. And I'm like, what is she so happy about? You know, we were like battling years at that point and she, I'm like, what is it? And she held it up and it was it was a mangy moose t-shirt. And I was like, Jackson Hole, Wyoming, huh. And then
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one of the catalogs, one of, you know, probably the fourth or fifth year the catalog came out, got it at home and was just, you know, glued to it. And then,
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you know, then found my uncle and cousins, you know, on the very little part of the data that we inherited
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on the mailing list. So it was kind of cool. Maybe it's just getting older or maybe it's doing things differently, but I find the history of, you know, West Bank anglers to be fascinated. Like I find the, you know, the more that I dig or the more every time Reynolds comes in, I grab him and I'm like, you know, what would paint the picture? Like what did it look like? And he's like, there were boats down this road. There was, you know, this was a ski bum house. And it's, you know, everything changes. But
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at some point, right, like a shop tree. Maybe we could hire you Paul to,
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know, shop tree, t-shirt or, or paint the ceiling. I don't know something like it's, well,
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so we're even working on like a Dallas West Bank reunion, all the people that worked at what it was called West Bank and even when it became Blue Drake. But I mean, I can't even imagine seeing the whole family tree of the West Bank and Jackson. What is cool though, when you, when you take that right and come down Moose Wilson Road, to me, it still looks pretty much how I drove to work every day back in 2000 through 04 or 02, I guess. And it still has that kind of out in the middle of the nowhere look. It's not as modernized as Jackson. Jackson looks a lot different with condos and what have you everywhere. But that Moose Wilson Road still to me looks pretty much the way it did back in the day when I'd do those drives
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figure out how to, how are we going to get through eight hours on a Sunday in February, you know, like three people are going to come in. So we'd take turns sleeping under the shipping table and the door to the chime would go off, you know, and, but those are great memories of back in the day, working, working in the shop there on Moose Wilson Road, man, it was great.
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wouldn't have traveled like I had probably at all those first few years if it wasn't for the West Bank Angular's tree. I mean, certainly wouldn't have started the Drake. I mean, just wouldn't have had that sort of view into the culture that guiding and being associated with the fly shop in that community lends itself to. And those early years, I mean, I went down and saw Greg Vincent at H2O, he became a really good friend, made a couple trips with him, you know,
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fish with Gable down in the Keys and,
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you know, anybody that I could get out with Dean Burton went down to the Keys and fish with him. I'm not buying those trips, right? If I didn't have like, everyone's in the connection. I even went over and, and with Jack Shaw, who is, you know, he was skiing in Verbi, he has a little different situation, but he had guided and then left from there and they started an adventure company over in Swersol and he's still there. Yeah. And I mean, you know, It's all West Bank.
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Doug McKnight, right? Like, I think he started in the Houston.
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He, yeah, he was in Dallas. He was in Dallas with you or? Yeah. Yep. Yep. We overlapped in Dallas. We're still really good friends. And yeah, he was in Dallas for I think a couple of years when I moved to Jackson, he came like a year after me, I believe, something like that.
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Yeah. And then, you know, Karla, I think I told you guys in an email, right? Like Carter just, you know, broke through the doors the other day. It's just, I don't know. So at some point, we definitely need to need to do something special. Yeah. Well, even just with me, you have Brian Hodges that's still in the travel business up in Bozeman.
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You got Kyle Wright that worked with me for summer. He now is in charge of the Baracho Pescador tournament in Texas. That's his gig.
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Jim Ogburn worked with us back in the day and he's got a construction business, but he's highly tied into a bunch of folks. He's up in Bozeman now. Most of the people I've worked with out there, you know, from the Southeast or the South, still all live out West, you know, like they couldn't escape it. It was hard for me to escape, actually. But yeah, it's amazing how it connected. Just like Tom said, like my career, you know, you have to be good at art to be an artist and be successful at it, but you also have to have cheerleaders and people that are on your side and help spread the word and just connections, like people that you need to meet, the right people to talk about what you do. All those people have come from working at West Bank, whether it was at Dallas or Jackson. It's been a huge part of my life working in that shop. The second you say you worked at a shop in Jackson, you know, West Bank's always going to come up. So it's been a great name and a great shop in the whole fly fishing industry for so long. It's something to be a part of. It's still coming up around here now. You know, I mean, Tom, you probably overlapped with French and English. He was like, I used to work, you know, when the transition happened, when we took over, he's like, well, I worked there. And I'm like, what? You know, I don't know him forever. And then John Wiley was like, no, I worked in there. Matt McMillan's like, I worked. I'm like, how do I not know? So anyhow, it's, yeah, Wiley. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's,
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just going to say that I think the community itself,
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there was just a very,
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I don't know if competitive is really the right word, but just
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the climbers that were in Jackson were the best in the world. The skiers that were in Jackson were the best in the world. And you, there, there wasn't one newspaper. There was two. And what started there creatively, it's Tying Flies or, you know, being a guide or, you know, Porter Fox started his, the pass and the, and the, these little community newspapers. And then Christian with his, you know, what became that, that Alpine journal. I mean, and, and I, I say that in part because I moved from there to Steamboat, which itself is a really, really great town, but it just didn't have that sort of, I mean, the, the waitresses in Jackson are competitive, you know, you just had to work really hard to make it there, basically. And I think that once you got that kind of mind state, and you're not really in a, in a negative way, just like as a very creative community, a lot of people that went out and did what they loved and, and, you know, took that with them where they ended up going. I think that stays with you.
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Yeah. And there's, there's something, it's almost like the first time I went to Austin, Texas, right? There's something there. And I don't, you know, know the history of Austin, but in terms of competitive entrepreneurship, if you will, where you can almost feel it. And, you know, when I, unfortunately, right, we lost John, this summer, but
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you know, whether it's Cloudvale or Sims or Lifelink or Tarponware, or, you know, Stee-O now, and then Three Bird being the most, like, it's just, there's something that, there's something in the water, so to speak, right? I mean, there, it's, it's, it's cool. And I think, I think you're exactly right. I mean, at least from what I feel is it's, it's not easy. Right. So, yeah. Maybe that, maybe that spawns a little extra omph, if you will. Not sure. I think, I think also, like, like you guys are saying, there's, there's a mindset. There's also like a, a competitive nature, but there's also kind of a team, a team nature where, even though you might be competing with someone, you're still on their team, you're still rooting for them. It's, it's, it's definitely a different mindset. And it's similar here in Charleston, when I, like, it's definitely not like that in Dallas, where I'm from.
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It's, it's a culture, I don't know, everyone just kind of roots for everyone, no matter if, if they're against, against each other or not. And it wasn't like that when I lived in Atlanta, obviously, but Charleston, Charleston and Jackson, I think are similar in that way, where if you're going to be successful, it definitely takes the village to help you be successful. And the village is willing to help you as well. And I, I got that feeling of the all four years I lived in Jackson. Yeah. And no matter what it was you were doing, right? I mean, the, the,
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idea that
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people get really, really into their one activity. And, and I mean, for me, it was, it was fly fishing and, but whether you're talking about the mountaineering or the paddling or the whatever it was,
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when I was starting to do started, when I was trying to write and produce a magazine, and because there wasn't something out there for people who already knew how to do that, right? It was all aimed for people who hired guides, right? In any of those sports. And then, but there was,
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that's why I think a lot of those, the climbing publications of others did so well, it was always about the culture. And that's the, that's the thing that remains that can't, you can't just teach it or even Google it, you know? I mean, you have to be in it and live it to understand it. For sure. That's a hell of a point. I think I read that.
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That was in a Forbes article that
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was way back, but it was about, yeah, it was about the, you know, you said, you said exactly that, like it was, it wasn't for people that was, that were hiring guides. It was for everyone. You know, those, those were that were living the culture as well. And I think, I think that's pretty, pretty true today as well, which is, which is amazing.
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I don't know, it's a, it's a fascinating topic. And I, you know, I mean, I think the fly fishing, the fly fishing business in general, I think is hard, really hard. I think that,
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you know, certain, certain towns and seasonal elements, you know, add a different layer of hard, but you also have a different layer of passion in there. Right. I mean, I think that, you know, someone comes in the shop and they're like, well, I want to, I want to cover it all. I'm like, cover it. Like you're, I mean, you know what you are. Yeah. You couldn't fish this in a lifetime. Like, yeah, you really couldn't. And so I don't know, there's, there's, there's just a, a very cool mix in there that, that I'm not going to stop.
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we're just going to keep exploring it if you will. But, but speaking of, of fishing, I think when we connected after the party, it sounds like everyone was kind of splintering and going, going different ways. And
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Paul, you were just doing some, some tarpon fishing and Tom, you were, you went up to the Dean, right? I did ask. Yeah. Cool. I know the trips. Yeah. So I, I had, I guess that party was like June 20th, I think I'd just gotten through doing a couple of tarpon trips, but I still had the panhandle trip that we do up in, uh, panacea, like Land Arc,
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area. And we had, we got, we got kind of hit by weather a little bit out of four days. We had two days where we practically didn't fish. And then two days that we did fish and we, they still had kind of a tough,
[01:27:36:15 - 01:27:53:23]
or we had a tough, tough series of days, but we, we jumped, I don't know, in four days, really just two days. I think, I think we jumped like six or eight. And then of course, we had a couple of other buddies that were fishing with Mangum. I think they jumped probably 12 to 15, you know, make, make the good spots, if you will.
[01:27:55:14 - 01:28:16:13]
But, uh, no, it was good. And then, and then since then I just got back from park city, wasn't much of a fishing trip, was more of a sea and family and whatnot. Uh, and then I think that was about it for me. I didn't, I didn't do a whole lot in July as far as fishing goes, just fished around here in Charleston, which is about to start really getting about right now. So I'm excited about that. Nice.
[01:28:16:13 - 01:28:19:08]
the Dean was great. This was
[01:28:19:08 - 01:28:24:09]
fourth time that I've made this trip up there with two of the other guys, there's four of us that,
[01:28:24:09 - 01:28:38:07]
I don't know how familiar people are with the Dean, but you either have to stay at the lodge there or a lodge there, or you heli in. So we opted for the heli in and, uh, we bring rafts along and then just float down.
[01:28:38:07 - 01:28:52:15]
uh, we also had weather. It was quite rainy, uh, most of the time and all night, a couple of the trips. And, uh, our first trip up there, we went in really high.
[01:28:52:15 - 01:28:56:17]
the Dean is maybe 150 miles. You could start
[01:28:56:17 - 01:29:22:04]
up high pretty far. And we had done that our first year and the second morning we woke up and the river was Brown. So that was kind of my concern and some of our concerns, but in retrospect, that must've been a landslide or something because the river was fine. Like the whole week it, uh, in fact, it got pretty colored up the last couple of days. And, and we did quite a lot of things. Um, and we were further down,
[01:29:22:04 - 01:29:37:05]
lower, but there's just something about when that water gets colored up, those fish are, they get really grabby. And so, um, and it's, you know, it's the end of July. So you're not cold. It's just a very, a very wet trip.
[01:29:37:05 - 01:29:43:19]
but the river is, is fishing well and, and you know, it has now for two or three years and
[01:29:43:19 - 01:30:07:12]
just talking to my friends and friends and things, you kind of wonder what's, what's going right there, you know, versus some of these other places. But a big part of it obviously is, is for those who don't know the Dean, there's a massive canyon at the bottom of it. And that keeps people from being able to go walk up it or go up it all empties into the Dean channel there in, in BC.
[01:30:07:12 - 01:30:10:03]
but this was also, I think this was the
[01:30:11:07 - 01:30:13:01]
fifth year, last year of a,
[01:30:13:01 - 01:30:18:23]
netting, gill netting ban in the Dean channel that was for,
[01:30:18:23 - 01:30:36:01]
pinks and chum primarily, but of course a lot of steelhead would get caught in those nets. And, and I think that was, that's being credited and it makes sense for maybe some of those numbers being better up there.
[01:30:36:01 - 01:30:48:19]
I'm not sure who's looking at the, the counts that are up there on the, in the tiey test fishery, but the, the Skeena looks like it could be good as well this year.
[01:30:48:19 - 01:30:51:01]
I've only been to the Dean once.
[01:30:51:01 - 01:31:30:01]
I think that's some of the most, you know, it's up there with, you know, when you, the ride in is, is almost worth, I mean, like that's some of the most gorgeous unbelievable. Yeah. Um, I've ever seen, but, but I feel like the, you know, and then I fished this whole Smithers area, you know, my goal is to knock them out, you know, just, just a set of makers and at least say I've done it right. Cause I don't think it's something like I'll be able to do every year. A lot of those, you know, it's like the bad beans, a tough one, unless you got some time. And, but I feel like between the Dean and,
[01:31:30:01 - 01:31:41:17]
you know, the whole Skeena system, like that's kind of the barometer. And, and I, when I went in there, which was probably, you know, seven years ago to the Dean eight years ago or something, I
[01:31:41:17 - 01:31:44:09]
didn't leave with a lot of hope.
[01:31:44:09 - 01:31:52:20]
and so it's, uh, it's really cool to hear, you know, we all need some good news stories, right? Sure. Sure. The fishing,
[01:31:52:20 - 01:32:25:23]
you know, on the Dean and, and then, you know, the Smithers region, at least there's been some great upticks cause there's been some, you know, boom and gloom outlooks. Certainly in steelheading in general, I mean, we should say as well, like part of the reason that those Dean fish are the size that they are is, is similar to the Skeena system. These are steelhead that spend two, three, four, occasionally like five years out in the ocean before they ever go back. And, and so they're just bigger fish. They're,
[01:32:25:23 - 01:32:56:07]
they've had to historically climb these falls and have adapted to become these big muscular fish. And what comes along with that is there, they stay as, as juveniles in those rivers for sometimes, you know, two years, maybe three. And so they've, they're grown up, looking up, eating bugs. And it, that certainly lends to their willingness to take a skated fly and a dry fly. And, and that's also one of the, one of the big draws to those rivers. And that,
[01:32:56:07 - 01:33:20:00]
good news is foreign few between, like you're saying, you know, and, and steelhead these days. And, uh, so it is, it's really nice to see their resiliency up there, but it's all the other, you know, it isn't developed. Like you say, you fly in and you don't see anything. You know, there aren't hatchery fish up there and all the, all the factors that, uh, that have heard them in the lower 48.
[01:33:20:00 - 01:33:30:15]
a lot of those are not there. Chas. Yeah. And I mean, we, we had a tough, it was tough. I mean, we caught some fish when I was there, but one, one thing I do remember was the,
[01:33:30:15 - 01:33:46:17]
you know, hooking a couple of chrome kings and, you know, then talking to the guides later that night and they're like, why didn't you blow the horn or all the, I'm like, blow the horn, call the radio. Like, or I even knew
[01:33:46:17 - 01:34:20:05]
going on. The thing is like almost the ocean, like multiple bands. And I think that, I mean, that's, that's on my list now. Like I, I got to go for a week and try to, you know, if you bat 50% out there, you're doing great. Like as far as hookups, you know, and there it's really fun hookups too, but, but depending on where you're fishing in the run, you're going to know pretty quickly whether you have a shot at landing that fish. Now oftentimes it's not. Well, I, I batted zero. I mean,
[01:34:21:10 - 01:34:30:07]
strange, you know, every, every chrome came that I hooked was just, it was gone. Oh, wow. Yeah. Whoa. This is different.
[01:34:30:07 - 01:34:32:16]
well, speaking of looks, how was the,
[01:34:32:16 - 01:34:36:11]
I mean, what was the, what was the outlook on the, the tarpon season
[01:34:36:11 - 01:35:56:20]
down that way was, was good. I haven't heard, I haven't heard too much. Well, I know in the keys, they had a weird season. Uh, you know, the weather stayed kind of normal. Normally they can kind of consider April one kind of when everything the last few years, even part of March, they start seeing, you know, migratory fish come through. But this year, I think the weather actually stayed pretty consistent in those fish. I was down there late April for, I think, uh, like a BTT event. And, uh, and they still hadn't seen fish coming in in storms yet. And it sounded like it started like very into April early May, and then it was over like by May 21st. So, and I don't know the science behind if that's good or bad, but that, that seems to me more like a, like a healthy situation. Like the weather's normal. It didn't get super hot too fast in those instead of the fish kind of being confused with, cause sometimes it'll get hot cold and we're not cold, but just, you know, little cold, cool fronts. But it sounded to me like that was kind of a best, you know, for the fish at least not so much for the fishing, but kind of a better case scenario in how it's probably supposed to be, uh, this year. So by the end of May, early June, they were kind of out of fish, which,
[01:35:56:20 - 01:36:07:17]
you know, the last few years that's, they, they usually kind of trickle to early June, but yeah, I mean, the guides were not too happy about it, you know, and a lot of the people that get on there and fish for three months, but,
[01:36:07:17 - 01:36:28:22]
for the health of the fishery and the fish, I think it was good, but for, you know, people that are guiding and need this fish to be around longer, it was kind of tough, but yeah. And they also weren't seeing as many big fish as in the past. So I think a lot of those fish are starting to stay off the flats too and migrating in deeper channels just because of boat pressure and angler pressure.
[01:36:28:22 - 01:36:35:16]
Yeah. We, we, I was, I was down in, uh, a spirit to Santu Bay, I'd done a blacksmith and, and
[01:36:35:16 - 01:36:57:13]
there was some fish behavior permit wise that I, I have ever seen except for on the other side of the world. And it was, um, it was, it was lethargic and, and slow that, you know, usually every, right. And it's just the opposite. It's like, what, what happened? Where did he go? And,
[01:36:57:13 - 01:37:36:00]
don't know why it didn't come to mind, but maybe because I've never fathomed it before, but I jumped out of the boat at one point and was like, like, this is disgusting. Yeah. The water. Yeah. The water. And, and that led to a, you know, a water temp and it was 94 degrees inside the bay. And, and I was like, wow, like that's, I've been fishing down there for, for a while and never even, I mean, running into hot water there wasn't even a possibility.
[01:37:36:00 - 01:37:46:17]
The good news was it cleaned up real quick and, uh, it, it changed with some wind and some tides, but that was, uh, that was a first,
[01:37:46:17 - 01:37:50:09]
I'd say we had, we had a similar thing in late March when we went to,
[01:37:50:09 - 01:38:15:13]
Ascension Bay where the water would just felt different. And then the last three days it, it kind of felt back to normal a little bit. It was maybe it was just a sort of weird current or tides. They were getting, I don't know what the deal is, but, uh, and it was slow for those first three or four days. And then the last three days we finally started seeing fish again. Yeah. No, I don't know. It's weird. It is weird. What was really cool and exciting and new was the,
[01:38:15:13 - 01:39:46:13]
you know, the, I don't think the secret, it's no longer a secret, but the, the floating crab thing is, yeah, the evolution of that. So it's almost like it, it's somewhat historical. I, I would think, I mean, you know, I, it's just, it's real. And then it's gotten, you know, to the point where, you know, there's certain people that won't, won't take it off ever. Well, do you think it's because of all the sargassum that's been going on there and there for four or five years? I think that's, yeah, I think that's, well, I think what that did was give people enough confidence. Right. Like, because I remember Don Gable talking about it, you know, 15 years ago, how they were trying it, um, and having some success, but then it felt like not enough or that the confidence level wasn't high enough to just keep it on. Right. And yeah. And I think that that's what the sargasso did. One, it came to mind when there was like red lines of water and 94 degrees was, well, everyone's talking about what a blessing this, this grass has been, but no one talks about what if the whole bay fills up with it and it gets choked up, but I don't want to go negative. But I think, I think it has kind of instilled, you know, enough of a confidence to,
[01:39:48:01 - 01:40:28:14]
to use it in situations and then get surprised. And then, and then it's like evolving techniques, right? Whether it's the flies or the stripping or the, um, but, but that's, that's kind of cool. I mean, it's something new, you know? Yeah. I have yet to see it like in person, uh, you know, I've, I've had like a floating fly on a cast to a fish and nothing good has happened yet. So I, I can't wait to see it happen. I know it does happen. Clearly. There's too many stories out and I've seen enough video evidence that it does happen, but it's still a myth to me until I see it. Yeah. And I think I counted and I, I made three casts with a, with a sinking fly,
[01:40:28:14 - 01:40:36:06]
that week. And, um, and the diff and then the difference is whether it's, you know, a tarpon or,
[01:40:36:06 - 01:41:00:11]
a permit is, there's no, you know, I mean, obviously easier with a tarpon, but in the everyone, I've run into a lot of situations where people are like, he ate it. And I'm like, you saw him eat it. Cause I didn't, you know what I mean? But that's not the case with a, with a floating fly. Like it's, yeah, you're, he ate it. You saw that. That's so cool. It is cool.
[01:41:00:11 - 01:41:10:03]
but yeah, it, you know, obviously those are, those are three very cool trips, multiple trips of tarpon
[01:41:10:03 - 01:41:11:04]
on your end, but,
[01:41:11:04 - 01:41:50:12]
I've got some friends down there right now that had a great week with tarpon in Ascension Bay. Like they'd kind of closed the books on the permit this week and just, and just for seeing enough tarpon where they were getting out in waist deep water and catching them waiting. I get a lot of cool pictures so that they had a good tarpon week down there at, at, uh, at, at Ascension Bay. So I'm sure there were people catching permits too, but they just looked for the tarpon all week. We, we had some of the same and, and what was really cool was they, uh, the, the, the wind was down enough that you could run the coast and kind of explore a little bit. And there was a lot of tarpon,
[01:41:50:12 - 01:41:52:11]
was, which was very cool.
[01:41:52:11 - 01:41:58:23]
Well, yeah. Well, I mean, I would love to talk a little more about obviously the Drake and,
[01:41:58:23 - 01:41:59:22]
artwork,
[01:41:59:22 - 01:42:03:21]
I think it was kind of alluded to earlier in the sense that,
[01:42:05:02 - 01:42:45:02]
you know, you get into the passion and sometimes it can become, you know, such a singular mindset that it's hard to look outside and therefore become creative. And both of you guys are deeply creative in your work and, you know, how, did it start, you know, whether it's the artwork or how did the, you know, how did the Drake come about and, and what do you, what, what do you guys both, you know, in terms of how, how do you, how do you light the fire on the creative process? Cause I, um, I'm always kind of, you know, this is probably the most creative thing I get to do.
[01:42:45:02 - 01:43:14:17]
I need more creative, you know, outlets for that. And I think, I think a lot of people do and, and you, both of you guys are amazing examples in, um, you know, whether it's just the outdoors in general, you know, skiing, hunting, fishing, all of it, but specifically in what you're doing for a living in the world of, of fly fishing. But how do you keep, how did it start and how do you, how do you keep those flowing?
[01:43:14:17 - 01:44:01:23]
Uh, Paul, you go, Tommy. I don't know if, uh, this industry always understands how fortunate we are to have the variety that is, that exists naturally and fly fishing. And, and I say that having been in the paddling industry, but you know, in, in the ski industry, and I love both of those sports, but it's not so different anywhere you go in the world. And you just, you take this one activity of fly fishing and you add in the variety of bait and bugs and fish, and it is just endless. So I think that's part of what drives that. I think it, it, it plays a big factor in retail as well. You know, why there's been
[01:44:01:23 - 01:44:50:07]
success in the fly shops that a lot of maybe bike or climbing or some of these other shops haven't had because there's just so much more gear that whether we need it or not to question that we like it, have varieties. And so for my artists, yeah, I'm not an artist myself, but the number of artists that are in fly fishing and the number of talented ones that are out there, it just, it always blows me away. And, and so I try to incorporate that as much as you can, whether it's painting or photography, or I see you got the permit on the wall there. Is that the license plate one? I can't quite tell. I mean, there's just so much that Montgomery, New Zealand print in the back. Yeah.
[01:44:50:07 - 01:45:00:02]
But you're writing is art. Yeah. Sure. To, to a degree, I think it's, it's definitely creative. And,
[01:45:00:02 - 01:45:03:22]
mean, people have always asked me if I've had a hard time finding
[01:45:05:01 - 01:45:07:19]
writers. And to be honest, it's
[01:45:07:19 - 01:45:09:17]
It can be hard finding really,
[01:45:09:17 - 01:45:25:14]
really, really naturally writers. But I think the, I'm blown away constantly by the number of essays, that style of creative writing that's out there. And sometimes they're high school kids, right? I mean, just
[01:45:25:14 - 01:45:48:18]
reporting and journalism is a, is a little different. There's a lot of people out there that weren't as fortunate as some of us to grow up and get that training in a newspaper or, you know, some of the other bigger outside magazines and have a, an editor there that's willing to work with you. But that the creative process of putting together
[01:45:48:18 - 01:46:21:16]
longer stories, whether it's, I don't do a whole lot of fiction, but this fiction type techniques, I'm constantly amazed by how good a lot of those artists are in that way. And that's the, I mean, I credit that largely with the magazines still being around. I mean, there's don't, you just can't sit and Google or use AI to give you a creative 600 word essay on fly fishing. I mean, people are like,
[01:46:22:22 - 01:46:44:08]
how much do you plan? I never, I love the drinks. I don't know what's going to be it. Neither do I, you know, it's a sort of no idea. So not, you know, you have a general framework and then these, the people that send essays in about all kinds of different experiences they have is, you know, it's one of the most enjoyable parts of my job.
[01:46:45:09 - 01:46:53:09]
And how, how did, like, do you remember the moment in time when you were like, I'm going to start,
[01:46:54:14 - 01:47:00:13]
I'm going to start the Drake? Yeah. When I was a Lifty at Deer Valley. And you sit there with a lot of time when you're a Lifty.
[01:47:02:16 - 01:48:18:13]
I had done one summer in Jackson and I went down and I spent a season of Park City. I was a Lifty at Deer Valley. And my mind's kind of working anyway. But boy, when you're at the top of the shack, you have a lot of ideas to come up with. And that's really where it started. And it ended up, you know, three or four years later, I just, I like I said, I didn't know if that even be a second issue, but I just knew that there was an outlet for that sort of writing. And on the other end of the spectrum, where I get some really overqualified writers and journalists, a lot of them are older, then I really shouldn't have a prayer of getting in the magazine. But they've sent me stuff because there's not a lot of outlets left for them. Right? I mean, there's only so many Tom McWaines out there, but the kind of people that have an advanced skill set that wrote for some of these magazines that don't exist anymore. And a lot of them are either firm believers in print, or they just don't want it to appear somewhere where there's going to be pop up ads and all the other stuff that is the online reading experience. And so, and that's the writing aspect. And then when it comes to art, I just,
[01:48:18:13 - 01:48:23:07]
could feature three of them in every issue. And there's just,
[01:48:24:15 - 01:49:21:13]
they're not all Paul Puckett granted, but there's, there's a lot of them out there that are inspired by Paul. Hey, Tom, were there ever any magazines ever before the Drake that were more about the culture of fly fishing and not a how to magazine? I mean, powder probably, Drake probably wouldn't exist if it wasn't for powder. And I've said that before, but, and that was, you know, it's, that's the magazine that people lived in a ski town, right? You know, I also worked for skiing for a couple of years. That's the magazine that my friends that took a week a year and went somewhere and, you know, they didn't, they didn't ski off-piece. They weren't backcountry skiers. They weren't. And, and to a, to a large degree that, that the Drake is modeled after that. Just like we were talking about before, the people who already know how to do it, but also tend to live in those sorts of towns where, where that's a, it plays a huge role in the culture.
[01:49:22:18 - 01:49:44:14]
Well, I think that the, you know, the fact that you, you get McGwayne's in the Drake, right, is, is a real credit to the culture of the Drake that you built and a real testament to, you know, there's not too many things that I think about that, that could go on in perpetuity. The, the Drake is one of them.
[01:49:44:14 - 01:49:57:12]
In the sense that, you know, I probably need to take more time to read it. I mean, I, like we obviously have it in the shop. I go through it and then I'm like, I'm going to read this and then life, right? But
[01:49:57:12 - 01:50:09:14]
it's something everyone always seems to grab. And, and then I get which is really cool, which is like, when is the new Drake coming? I'm like, I don't know.
[01:50:10:17 - 01:50:27:23]
It'll be here when it gets here. But you bring up a really good point. And that, that when you say, you know, everybody's short on time and I've sat on these panels or what have you. And, and, and you get asked that question about,
[01:50:27:23 - 01:50:42:06]
you know, the, the style of writing you put in there or the, or the writing in the Drake versus the writing online or in this or that outlet. And to me, none of that matters really. I mean, I, you know,
[01:50:42:06 - 01:51:18:04]
people say it's so great you can still do this print magazine. I'm like, yes, I love it as well. But you think I wouldn't want to get rid of a $40,000 print bill if there wasn't, if I could get it out there without that, you know, but the fact of the matter is, is what, what you have to put in a magazine is just, it just has to be better than whatever the next best thing is someone can do with their time. That's it. Like across the board, you know, if it's worth their time and they're consistently be like, Oh, this is worth reading, then they'll come back to it.
[01:51:18:04 - 01:52:44:00]
And you don't always hit it out of the park, but you're, we're just, you're all, all of us are in competing for that precious amount of time that people have in their day. And so if they invest that time in it, you want to make it worth it for them. Yeah. And I honestly think the fact that it only comes out three or four times a year makes it more valuable. And that's what makes it stick around longer too. If it came out every month, I'll, I think people would just take it for granted and just maybe not even look at it. So I think that's the magical part of the journey. Yeah. Well, good. You don't need to. Was there ever a competing name, you know, when, when you're, you're at the shack on the lift or wasn't it, was it always the Drake from the store? I think that I had that pretty early because the first couple of issues, I was pretty into bird hunting at the time. So the first couple of issues actually had a duck and a Drake mayfly and a Drake and Drake. And I thought that was cool. And, and, but then it just, there just wasn't the retail outlets. And it was kind of, you know, it's different culturally. I still like bird hunting. I don't do as much as I used to, but what I really love is just dogs. So they play a big part in the bag. Hence the ass trash calling for forever. But no, I just, I just, I thought it was a cool name and I didn't know I'd ever get the wrapper on the cover. That was surprising.
[01:52:44:00 - 01:53:39:09]
But there's, you know, other than the hotel, a few other randoms, it just, I didn't want it to be confused with, you know, I work at Skiing Magazine, Skiing Magazine and Ski Magazine were both around for 50 years and nobody knew the difference between the two of them. So you just, it come up as a little more creative damn and you might not, maybe not as many people are drawn to it initially because they're not sure what it is, but they don't get it confused with anything else. Yeah. And I think, I mean, I, I did a quick check this morning, but I'll, I'll have to follow up with you. We're, we're not short. We're pretty close to having most, you know, issue. And I think that would be another cool thing to do in the shop would be to complete all the issues and, and get them done like the catalogs, you know, around, around.
[01:53:40:13 - 01:54:00:00]
I was scrambling this morning because, um, um, warring sister, John's other daughter reached out that they're doing a celebration. He's in that first issue is a three person profiles, him and we're running Tom Montgomery. And, uh, and then so we, that extra copy up there to them.
[01:54:00:00 - 01:55:04:12]
I mean, I have a few of those years. I have none of those years. I've had to bought my own magazine back online. It just, I, I moved so much and you know how things go. That's funny. Yeah. I mean, there's, there's four or five years at least where I maybe have to copy something. Well, I just, I just have to say that I think it was, I think it was, I think it was a, yeah. So, but you had me like at an easel on the Chattahoochee river and I had like my guitar. Yeah. That was 20 years ago. 20 years. That was, I think that was 06, if I'm not mistaken, uh, but I can't believe that's been 20 years. I saw like three of those. I did the magazine. I did the magazine. I did the magazine. So like three of those. I did the math. The Baker owned the shop for 20. Crazy that is right. Didn't seem like, I mean, yeah, that's wild 20 years. Yeah, it sure does now, right? I mean, yeah. Unbelievable.
[01:55:04:12 - 01:55:13:06]
how about you Paul, what the evolution of the painting and the illustration and the creative processes?
[01:55:14:09 - 01:55:21:18]
Yeah. It's funny. The first time I really ever showed my fishing art was when I was 18.
[01:55:22:20 - 01:55:25:12]
That spring after high school,
[01:55:25:12 - 01:56:10:09]
we found out that someone was opening up a fly shop in Dallas. There was already a shop there, it was an old gentleman's country club style fly shop. I heard they ever went into. That's where I rented all the old Jack Dennis videos though back in the day. They had a little movie real varied, all those old videos. But I found out this couple that was starting the shop, David and Kathy Coleman. They were going to open it up with Kim, Steve, and Reynolds. I just wanted to talk to them and show them my art and see if I could get some of my artwork in the store to sell or show or something. I wouldn't even think about getting a job. I didn't even enter my mind because I wasn't prepared for that yet. I knew how to fish a little bit, cast but I didn't know all the ins and outs.
[01:56:11:18 - 01:56:54:19]
I met with them, showed them my art, and then a week later they were about 10 days away from opening. They had said that I could show some of my art in there and they asked me if I could come help just fold clothes and just get the store ready, just get all hands on deck and they had only hired one employee at the time. I was like, man, if I just bust my ass and I'm there five minutes early, stay 20 minutes late and just for 10 days, and my trick worked because after eight days they asked me if I could be hired and have a job there. So it all worked out the way that I was hoping it would. Then that first summer I learned so much. Then I'd already been drawing and painting. Then I saw on
[01:56:54:19 - 01:57:10:08]
old fishing shows, they had an interview with this guy from Montana that painted people's fish. I was like, man, that's a good idea. So I stole that idea and people would come back from the Henry's Fork or Jackson Wyoming and have an 18-inch cutty
[01:57:10:08 - 01:57:20:17]
picture of it. I'd be like, well, I can paint that fish 18 inches and it'll look just like your fish. I'll say where you caught it above it and
[01:57:20:17 - 01:58:05:12]
blah, blah, blah. That's what really started getting me to realize I could paint something and get money for it. That opened up my eyes and then I had already had amazing people that I loved art, like Mike Stidham and even Tim Borsky at the time was starting to be pretty well known. I was totally enamored by his art, how simple it was but elegant and complicated at the same time. Borsky took the route you did, like in not guiding. Yeah. Yeah, that was a conscious. I've heard him tell that story that's similar to, do I really want to go that? Yeah, because he was down in the Keys. Everybody knew him but he just fished and did his art. Yeah. Yeah. I went to Tim Borsky route for sure.
[01:58:06:13 - 01:58:18:06]
But then I worked and then I also did art in college. Then when I went to Jackson in 2000, after doing six years in the shop in Dallas and painting people's fish,
[01:58:18:06 - 01:58:42:10]
in Jackson, I hardly ever painted. I was a fishing, snowboarding, drinking bum. I was such a loser for four years, but it was awesome. It was the best possible way to be a loser. I caught more fish than I would have ever dreamed of. It was perfect. It was a perfect gateway to saltwater fishing, where you never catch fish anymore.
[01:58:43:10 - 01:58:45:06]
Or at least I hardly do.
[01:58:46:08 - 01:58:54:03]
But Jackson was a great four years that I didn't really paint a lot. I've got three or four paintings that I started when I live there.
[01:58:55:11 - 01:59:23:07]
I wish I could go back. I don't know if it's a regret. I don't live with regrets. But if I had one regret, it would be that I didn't just go out into the field and paint like Mount Moran and paint on site and really do that. I live for that now. I love that stuff now. There wouldn't even be room there for an easel now. There's so many people that pull out. Exactly. I know. Everyone driving around in their vans and their rod racks. Nowhere to put the easel.
[01:59:24:10 - 01:59:33:02]
But then I moved to Atlanta and I got a job in a cubicle. I sat there thinking, what am I doing? This is crazy.
[01:59:34:10 - 02:00:33:10]
I went out and visited some friends in Jackson six months after I moved to Atlanta. I came back from that ski trip saying, I'm going to get my art back in action. That's what I'm going to do. That's when I started doing all those silly characters holding fish, like the predator holding a tarp in and just all these silly little. Farley, right? You get some Farley in there? Yeah, Chris Farley, all those types of things. What's funny is doing those is what got my name out there. That's when, I don't know, Instagram hadn't started yet, but you put something on Facebook and next thing you go to it, it's got all these views and that's how people started discovering my name as far as art goes. I was doing these other paintings on the side that I really wanted people to see, but they were really just seeing the little silly cartoon things, but that's what opened the door for people to see my other paintings that I was doing.
[02:00:35:07 - 02:00:36:13]
That's how it got started.
[02:00:36:13 - 02:00:44:03]
Then I'm sure getting in the Drake didn't hurt either. People started seeing what I was doing as far as that goes.
[02:00:45:09 - 02:00:54:12]
Then I moved to Charleston and started doing the Southeastern Wildlife Exposition art shows and started getting my name out there more as far as that goes.
[02:00:56:03 - 02:01:24:17]
Then being in a couple of galleries, then Instagram, just all these things. Like I said, the fly fishing industry has been my family ever since 1994, and just going to industry shows and meeting people. Then I had Flood Tide, apparel company for 10 years, which was born out of those character drawings of all these characters holding fish. That's how we started that brand. Definitely more of a culture, fly fishing culture, humor side.
[02:01:26:00 - 02:01:31:01]
You had to get the fly fishing culture to understand what we were doing.
[02:01:33:05 - 02:01:41:12]
That also helped get my name out there and my art world for more people to know what I was doing.
[02:01:42:19 - 02:02:03:16]
Do you have favorites? I'm sure you do. Is there a certain style that you prefer over others? Or is there anything that stands out?
[02:02:05:08 - 02:02:16:12]
Because you mentioned that you started with the characters and obviously have progressed quite a bit. I was actually on both of your sites last night.
[02:02:18:07 - 02:02:18:18]
Sorry.
[02:02:21:04 - 02:02:22:14]
We'll touch on that.
[02:02:24:09 - 02:02:32:22]
When I get on your site, and I've done it several times now, the tarp and dark sky painting,
[02:02:34:03 - 02:02:45:15]
we're going to have to get that one in the shop because it just grabs me. I started doing some really simplified.
[02:02:46:16 - 02:03:07:02]
I guess the word is composition, I guess is the best word for it. How can I get the message across of this? Because when I go out and fish, really no matter where I fish, I'm the only boat out there and I'm with a buddy, I feel tiny. You're just this small little speck in this world.
[02:03:08:05 - 02:03:10:23]
I feel so lucky and happy to be in it.
[02:03:12:10 - 02:03:31:17]
When I wanted to do those paintings, I wanted to make that message across is how small we should feel when we're out there. Maybe if you look at this painting, it'll remind you of that. I've got quite a few paintings that portray that such as that one. That was actually from a photo that I saw.
[02:03:32:21 - 02:03:43:05]
When I saw the photo, I had to paint it. I can't remember his name, dang it. He definitely gets a lot of the credit for that. I simplified it even more. I think I made the sky a lot darker too.
[02:03:44:10 - 02:03:48:16]
I love that piece. That's one of my favorites. That's when I was doing a lot of the drippy stuff.
[02:03:50:09 - 02:04:22:09]
I learned that. Are you all familiar? Steve Seinberg from He's Stone, the Southern Culture on the Fly, the online magazine. He still does some very contemporary work where he just lets things drip everywhere. I borrowed that vibe from him a little bit, but I love the idea of solid structure and then drip underneath because I hate painting water. To me, that drip tells you that it's water without me having to paint a bunch of waves and reflections.
[02:04:24:02 - 02:04:51:12]
I'm just not good at it yet. I'm starting to get better, but that was my cheat. My cheat code was just dripping a bunch of paint to signify water. It works. I love it. At the end of the day, it's actually something I love doing. I don't really consider it a cheat code anymore. But yeah, I've got a lot of favorite inspirations. Mark Sisino is very realistic more than like a Mike Sittem, but I love Mike Sittem for how impressionistic he is.
[02:04:52:20 - 02:04:58:11]
My favorite artists are all over the board. Jack Unruh was from Dallas, Texas. He was an amazing illustrator.
[02:04:59:13 - 02:05:08:18]
I can see a lot of Jack Unruh and a lot of today's illustrators. But yeah, there's so many. Eldridge Hardy was one of my favorites.
[02:05:09:22 - 02:05:34:18]
He passed away about four or five years ago. I was so lucky to go on a few trips with him, tarp and fishing. It's amazing, cool in this industry, whether it's fly fishing or art, that you can actually meet your heroes and you can actually go fishing with them. It's not crazy to think that there's a rider out there that Tom Bayh is one of his people and that he might end up on a boat with him someday, and they might be fishing and they might be best friends after.
[02:05:35:21 - 02:05:40:08]
A day of fishing, it's pretty cool that we get to do this.
[02:05:41:18 - 02:05:46:23]
It's pretty neat that you can actually meet these people and next thing you know, you can call them your friends.
[02:05:48:00 - 02:05:52:15]
Yeah, exactly. I think that's a great
[02:05:52:15 - 02:06:05:07]
point because I'm Naval. I think he was the one that started the Uber.
[02:06:06:11 - 02:06:09:02]
He put out a free journal,
[02:06:10:07 - 02:06:17:12]
which I love shit like that, where it was like I'm not selling my book, but this was the inspiration for a lot.
[02:06:18:19 - 02:06:36:23]
One of the chapters, he breaks it all down into the happiness boxes. He's like, "You can't just check the money box. The rest of them are going to be unchecked and you'll still be miserable."
[02:06:39:05 - 02:06:45:06]
But I've always thought about the fly fishing industry as it seems like the money box just never gets the
[02:06:45:06 - 02:06:46:00]
check mark.
[02:06:48:10 - 02:06:49:00]
No.
[02:06:50:11 - 02:07:06:18]
The experience box does that. It does. Everything else it seems to, like you just said, whether it's meeting people or finding yourself in situations that you almost need to pinch yourself, whether it's the environment or the people that you're with.
[02:07:08:12 - 02:07:45:13]
You guys have been doing it longer than me, but I've been at it for a little bit. It starts to become like a greater family. I wouldn't have had the balls to ask Tom to do this had I not put my time in or you. It's like you put enough time and you start to check enough of the boxes. Maybe the money box isn't fully checked, but you're still able to do what you're doing.
[02:07:48:07 - 02:08:03:02]
It's lucky. At the end of the day, I can circle around excuses, but that's really what it is. We're very fortunate to have these connections all over the place, whether it's fish. Yeah.
[02:08:04:14 - 02:08:08:16]
The way you put it Paul, we've all met.
[02:08:10:03 - 02:08:18:17]
He's a professional musician, professional football player, baseball player, and they mistakenly think I'm the cool one. I don't even want to meet.
[02:08:20:00 - 02:08:26:01]
I was like, let's make this a short conversation so I can keep you with your distorted image.
[02:08:27:04 - 02:08:28:02]
No, that's true.
[02:08:29:18 - 02:08:36:08]
Also, you talk about the money box. This is a great profession to be in to meet people that have checked the money box.
[02:08:39:14 - 02:08:46:16]
Like you're saying as well, Tom. Yeah, you'll meet. I've met a musician buddy of mine recently, met him at Fort Myers.
[02:08:47:20 - 02:08:57:01]
What he does is like I'm so enamored by Star struck, but he's like, "No, dude, you're a badass. What do you mean?"
[02:08:58:01 - 02:09:08:05]
Everything's a little off in my mind, but he's touring the world being a musician up on the stage, and he'd better talk about how tarpon fishing was today in Florida.
[02:09:09:06 - 02:09:09:18]
It's pretty cool.
[02:09:09:18 - 02:09:22:03]
Yeah, I mean, just yesterday, we were in the back room and we're having a meeting that's 60 percent serious.
[02:09:22:03 - 02:09:30:17]
someone kept doing this, and I'm like, "What are you looking at?" They're like, "I think that's Taylor Sheridan.
[02:09:32:19 - 02:09:49:07]
He's buying a fly rod." Yeah, I sold him a Scott a couple of years ago. We should see if he liked it. They're like, "That's cool." Yeah, it's just- It's totally cool, but I love when they plan themselves down too.
[02:09:51:07 - 02:10:00:06]
Two summers ago, Charlie Blackman, we're floating the Colorado. I'm standing back a little bit and watching him cast and the guy standing next to me. I'm like, "Gosh, he's such a good guy."
[02:10:01:07 - 02:10:06:22]
He looks at me, he's like, "He was National League Baden Champion. I think he could probably handle it." Yeah.
[02:10:09:13 - 02:10:13:10]
You have any idea how easy it is for him? Yeah.
[02:10:13:10 - 02:10:22:16]
That was awesome. I actually communicated with him the other day, Tom. It sounds like he finally got a permit. Oh, he did? Charlie Blackman. Yeah, he got a permit. That
[02:10:22:16 - 02:10:44:12]
was good for him. Yeah, that's been a box you've been wanting to check for a long time. Yeah. Good for him. Yeah, for sure. A couple of years ago, when Taylor- I don't know the connection to the area. I know he grew up fishing around here, but anyway, I sold him a Scott. He loved it.
[02:10:45:20 - 02:10:50:02]
He went out and casted it. I have no clue who he is.
[02:10:51:12 - 02:10:57:04]
I'm just riding, trying to provide- Which he loves, probably. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, for sure.
[02:10:58:09 - 02:11:03:11]
Just trying to provide customer service, and then a couple of the young kids were like,
[02:11:04:18 - 02:11:12:22]
"Do you know who that was?" I'm like, "I don't." They're like, "That's Taylor Sheridan." I was like, "Who's that?"
[02:11:15:08 - 02:11:22:15]
"Have you heard of Yellowstone?" I was like, "You mean the show?" They're like, "Yeah." I'm like, "I don't like that show."
[02:11:23:15 - 02:11:31:11]
Then one of the young kids- I went back to working, and one of the young kids came back, and he's like,
[02:11:33:07 - 02:11:43:06]
"You have a second?" I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, "You ever seen the movie Sicario?" I was like, "Yeah, it's probably one of the best movies ever made." He did that too.
[02:11:44:06 - 02:12:10:07]
everything he had done was like, "Wow." Like you, though, I didn't realize how much other stuff he'd done. I also was on a huge Yellowstone panel. But now I'm watching these other shows that I think are great. There's another one like the two brothers who go out in raw banks or something like that. That was also- Oh, yeah. High water. Hella high water. Also, I'm like, "Oh, he did somewhat cool stuff before." In Wind River?
[02:12:10:07 - 02:12:32:06]
the very first guided fly fishing trip I ever did. I'm at the lodge. This is year 94, so that's my third year in town. There's all these conventions up there all the time, and you don't pay any attention to it. It's just important, rich people over in the lodge. Whoever gets on your boat, you just go.
[02:12:33:06 - 02:12:51:02]
Get down, and the first mile, you do introductions, so, so, so, so. This is Mike. Great. We get down. Maybe try this, Mike. Try to get around the corner. He asks if he can get out and walk downstream. The other dude in the boat is like, "Do you know that's the governor of Wyoming?" I'm like, "No idea."
[02:12:51:02 - 02:12:55:23]
heads up beforehand would have been nice. Yeah. Hey, ignorance is bliss, though.
[02:12:55:23 - 02:13:33:06]
I think one of the funniest interactions I had working at West Bank was that first summer. I think it was towards like middle or end of the summer when Bush and Cheney declared they were going to run for president. And at that point, Cheney had to change his residency from Dallas to Wyoming because he was living with Dallas at the time. And I had talked to him a few times at the Dallas West Bank, so I'm not going to say we knew each other, but we were familiar with each other's faces. So he comes in the West Bank store, and I'm sure it's the same way where you have to have a proven residency for a year in order to get a resident fishing license. I don't know if it's still like that, but it was back then.
[02:13:34:10 - 02:14:37:03]
And he walks up, and all of a sudden, Steve walks up at the same time. Cheney's coming up. Steve's kind of small talking to him a little bit, and Cheney goes, "I already need a fishing license." And I'm pulling out the non-resident fishing license, you know, because I know that he just moved there. And so I'm pulling out the $85 license, Steve goes, "Oh, no. No, no, no. We're going to have him get a resident license." I look at him like, and he pulled his Wyoming license. I guess he had gotten one pretty quick considering who he is. And so I'm sitting there filling out a false document or an illegal document with the guy that's about to run for vice president. And so, you know how back in the day, there were four slips, like a white blue and a pink one and a whatever? So normally, like the yellow one goes to stay. Well, I just pulled it out and kept that for myself. And so I've got that document somewhere, but it's kind of neat that it was an illegal fishing license document for old Dick Cheney.
[02:14:37:03 - 02:15:10:16]
Yeah, it was right about that time. And it wasn't, I mean, I did get to listen to, I was not guiding him that day, but I did get to listen to him explain the history of the Middle East, like at a lunch in like 45 minutes. And I felt so stupid that I had to walk away. But the whole day I was with the Secret Service and I mean, we're doing Dead Man's to Moose.
[02:15:10:16 - 02:15:21:10]
Yeah, thanks for that. All the helicopters overhead. There is a car and I'm trying to get info out of these, you know, I'm a little bit of a wise,
[02:15:21:10 - 02:15:24:06]
mean, this is what, only years ago, like being a little bit of a wise
[02:15:24:06 - 02:15:31:21]
with the Secret Service, like what's in the box? And like, there's no response, you know.
[02:15:31:21 - 02:16:10:13]
Then a car on the opposite side of the river is putting up a dust trail, like it's moving on the opposite, on the road. And they, the Secret Service, like the radio started going and I was like, oh, this could get real very quickly. And sure enough, you know, all of these bags that I'm like joking around asking about, I mean, I took like one or stroke and then like look up and the guns up and point. No way. How the hell did he put the gun together?
[02:16:12:01 - 02:16:36:22]
Yeah, it was remarkable to watch him go into action and then they called it off. And by the end of the time I was like, I'm, you know, I've never been dealt with the, I think I had the head Secret Service guy with me and we warmed up and I'm like, we're pulling out and I'm still, I asked him the question like, you're still not gonna like tell me what's in the box?
[02:16:38:21 - 02:17:07:13]
And he walks away and anyway, like I'm putting the strap on the boat. And then he's like, thanks for today. Gave me a t-shirt, which I, which my son is now sporting around still to today. And he goes, yeah, that we call that bag the football. And I was like, why do you call it the football? And he's like, because we cared everywhere we go. And I'm like, and what does it do? And he's like, that's the capability to launch all the new nuclear devices in the United States.
[02:17:08:18 - 02:17:17:14]
Yeah. Oh, man. The football man. Yeah. That's, that's the big one. Yeah. That was, that was wild. Well, I,
[02:17:17:14 - 02:17:22:12]
I bet there were a couple of secret flies in there too that might've done the job that they never revealed.
[02:17:22:12 - 02:17:26:21]
Yeah. Right. I mean, well, since you're on the subject. Yeah.
[02:17:28:00 - 02:17:34:22]
South Fork trip. I'm with Carter. We were making a show, got an early start over there.
[02:17:34:22 - 02:18:12:06]
and it's just a wonderful flood and getting, got lots of good footage. And we pull over for lunch and we hadn't seen many boats, but like I said, we started pretty early. So it didn't take that much of it. And we look upstream and there's Dick Janie with his whole entourage and the two of the filmmakers that are with us. And so the shooters of course are like, oh, great. That they're going to take all our stuff. They're going to, and I'm just like, didn't say anything, but figured what would happen to happen, which is he gets another 30 yard downstream and there's Carter.
[02:18:13:07 - 02:18:16:16]
Mr. Vice president, how are you doing? Hello, Carter. How are you?
[02:18:16:16 - 02:18:21:22]
These guys are like, hello, Carter. It's like just, that's amazing. Imagine that.
[02:18:23:05 - 02:18:29:12]
Right. But he, uh, cause the one fly and everything else and, and being older and just kind of knew each other.
[02:18:30:17 - 02:19:44:01]
That's hilarious. Amazing. What, uh, where, where it brings you. And I just had one more, one more topic because I'm, I'm curious to hear, I mean, you know, what you guys are doing, what, what everything you've done. And, you know, a lot of this, like we've talked about has spawned from fly shops. And, and I think we all agree that there's something magical in a fly shop that might be a little different than other places. But, you know, a lot is changing. And I think no one knows what the AI storm is gonna, is gonna bring. Um, but just the future of, of, you know, fly shops and the importance, whether that's gonna, you know, do you, do you think it's gonna continue? You think it's gonna get stronger or do you think it could be diminished? I mean, last night I, I went downstairs just to, you know, I always try to check and, you know, the screen battle is real in our household. And I had had the talk, like, don't, whatever you do, don't turn off the screen because I want to, A, see what you're watching. I might be able to learn something.
[02:19:44:01 - 02:20:26:19]
I also want, and sure enough, I walked downstairs and there's this YouTube fly fishing thing that he's starting to look at. And I'm like, how many, how many followers is that? And is that good? I mean, I, I should know more than I do, but, um, and sure enough, it was a, you know, well subscribed to fly fishing, you know, I don't know what you call it, YouTube short or channel or, um, but, but anyhow, that was, you know, I, I was like, well, I might need to look into that a little more. I mean, I'm, this will go on YouTube and I guess would be the same,
[02:20:26:19 - 02:20:37:03]
Same. Yeah. Well, but like in terms of the, the fly shop future and the importance, like, where do you, where do you guys see it going?
[02:20:37:03 - 02:22:51:10]
I mean, I, I don't think it's going to change. I think if anything, it's going to get stronger. I think the more digital thing, the more digital information, the more digital garbage we're throwing at like kids right now. Like I just heard some staff that CD sales just went up 20% like in the last quarter, which is to me, that means like, let's just say an average 12 to 20 year old, like once physical things in their hand, the more that we tell them they need digital, the more they're kind of rejecting that and wanting non AI things and non digital things. And they want to hold something in their hand that they own. Like if you're 15 year old today, basically since you've been born, you haven't really owned anything like music and things on your computer and they want tactile things in their hand. And, you know, nothing will ever replace like going to Jackson and like to me, the fly shop is the gateway of that, that local culture and what's going on, not just in the fishing scene, but like when I go in a fly shop, I've never been into it. I'm like, that to me kind of gives the idea of what's going on with people like minded people like myself. And I'm sure I had some bad days where I worked at a shop and I probably didn't give the best customer service, but what that shop kid right there instantly is the person that's advertising, you know, what this town's all about and what we, how we want to portray our fishery. And what have you, I mean, the information's great. You're not always going to get the best information. I don't think because I probably didn't give the best information. I didn't give away all the, all the spots. You kind of want someone to work for a little bit, but you at least put them in the right direction, you know, let them figure it out some of them for themselves. But man, the fly shop's a magical place to me, no matter where in the world I'm going to a fly shop, I can't wait to walk in there and I'm always going to buy eight to 10 flies or a hat. I'm always going to buy something. That's just, and I love buying something at every shop I go to. So I don't think it'll be anything that'll ever change or go away.
[02:22:53:02 - 02:22:55:08]
I agree with you for slightly
[02:22:55:08 - 02:23:02:00]
different reasons. I agree with everything you say. It's not just the
[02:23:03:04 - 02:23:10:03]
young people that are kind of losing some of that sense of community and people talk about it.
[02:23:11:03 - 02:24:54:17]
But I've, I was very fortunate this year to be able to, I had a three week float on the Grand Canyon. It was my permit. I waited for it for 20 some years. And that three weeks with 12 friends not being connected, I think it's the best part of the trip. It's priceless, right? And then just last week up on the team, it's a very, I mean, you can still send a text, you know, and catch it and Elon satellite or something, but it's the idea of the hours you're sitting around with other people without any of that stuff readily available that really sinks in. And how much of that is missing. And to your point, all the quick, even then kids realize it, you know, and, and, and there is something, there is kind of, maybe they just want to be different. They haven't had, you know, they've been reading their digital the whole life and you want to be the cool 17 year old now you're at the, you're at the coffee shop and the paperback. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is, it's like, you know, it comes in cycles, but, but like we were talking about earlier, I think fly shops foster that unique community. I mean, the number of people that, that will tell me I would subscribe, but I use that as an excuse to go into the fly shop four times a year. And I tell, if I'm only buying the magazine, but whatever. It's the idea that, you know, just to, just an excuse to go spend time in the shop and, and, and see other people in that community. So I, I'm with you. I think it, I hope all right. I don't think it'll go away because people can, they can buy online right now all they want. Right. Yet there's still something about that community that means something.
[02:24:55:21 - 02:24:58:20]
Yeah. And I think it's, it's almost like, uh,
[02:24:58:20 - 02:25:35:02]
you're going on a big trip, right? It doesn't start the moment you're right. You're making a cast. It starts when you've either, you know, for me, it starts like, I need to book the plane ticket. And then I'm like, all right. And then you start talking about it. Then you start asking some friends and then you tie a fly and, you know, I feel like the fly shop has a little of that as well, where it's like, you know, you're going to go get to go fishing next week, but you want a little, you know, it's already started. So build up the anticipation. And that's part
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of it. And you might, and you might go in the shop like four times within two weeks, just because it makes you feel like you're fishing a little bit, you know, it makes you feel for sure. And I think you're kind of bragging about your trip to the guys. Oh yeah. I'm heading to so and so.
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Yeah, exactly. And I think it, you know, at least on the higher level, whether it's it's music or
[02:25:57:21 - 02:26:28:04]
art or, you know, all of these experiences where you do need, you know, the smells and the sounds and to actually connect yourself with the environment. And I feel like all of those experiences, you know, in the next 20 years are going to go up in value with, you know, the evolution of AI. And I would like to say that,
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you know, I've just dabbled. But I mean, I use, I'm using it all. I mean, it just seems like the pace at which it's changing is insane. But I do feel like the default of that will be that, you know, experiential,
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outdoors, music, concerts, you know, all of it's gonna, gonna grow in value to everyone.
[02:26:50:17 - 02:27:47:02]
Yeah, I fully agree. Like people ask me and I think Tom is pro, I don't even know what Tom's, you know, opinion of it, I think it would affect him or any writer more that would me personally, people ask me all the time, how it would affect me. And I say bring on the AI art, the more AI art you can bring on the more valuable my actual physical art is going to be. And if people start relying on AI art, like, let's say a 20 year old right now starts doing stuff with AI art, and the further they get away from actually painting and drawing themselves takes less, there's less competition for me now. So I it's not gonna bother me at this point, maybe we talk about it in 10 years. And I'm like, Oh my god, I'm really worried about I have no idea. But as it stands right now, it's not gonna affect me as far as any downside, if anything is more upside for me.
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it's fascinating. It's kind of a fascinating time.
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And I think as far as writing goes, I would say, Tom, I mean, there's no one there's no AI, like you said earlier, Tom, there's no AI that can experience going to the Gunnison River and having a four day trip there and coming back and writing about it like that. I use it every day too.
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Right. Yeah, I mean, because I'm the one with the raft and I had to drive to Bella Kula, I also got almost 5000 miles of podcasts in. And that's a that's a pretty big topic. Yeah, there's an awful lot of opinions out there. And the bottom line, no one knows yet. I mean, they, you know, it's gonna be some big, massive change. But in terms of what it, you know, how it affects certain. I mean, you have the guys out there making it don't even know what it's gonna do yet. Right. So, I think we still have a long way to go before we really know how it's gonna play out. Well, speaking of time, I've taken up a lot of you guys time and I can't thank you enough. It's I can't believe that that we've already been doing this for an hour and a half. Thank you.
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Yeah, man. We could like you said, we I mean, I've already got three stories I can unload right now. But yeah, we could do this all
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night. Yeah, we'll we'll do it again for sure. After we get we get all the Drake covers up in the shop and get get some of your artwork in there and yeah, start start going from there. But but yeah, I can't thank you guys enough. Really appreciate your time. It's an honor.
[02:29:22:16 - 02:29:27:19]
Thank you for all you do. Thanks, bud. And I'll see you in September for the one fly. I'm sure you'll be around.
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Yeah, I'm getting back in this year for. Okay, good for you. Yeah. Awesome. Awesome.
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(Music)
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(Applause)
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