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What’s the story you can’t stop telling? Fran and Bethany are here to help you write, sell, and launch it.
Literary agent Bethany Saltman and bookstore owner Fran Hauser—also both critically acclaimed authors—host Bookbound, the podcast for non-fiction writers who want to learn how to transform their ideas, expertise, and obsessions into successful books and publishing deals. Fran and Bethany interview accomplished authors who share the strategies and surprises behind their bookbound journeys. These how-I-did-it conversations will inspire listeners to claim their own “author-ity” mindset and turn the story they can’t stop telling into a book the world needs to read.
To connect with the hosts and more, go to www.bookboundpodcast.com/
Elaine Lin Hering [00:00:00]:
From the writing of the book to the marketing of the book, I think there's two pieces of advice. Play your own game and build your team. Don't go it alone.
Bethany Saltman [00:00:11]:
My name is Bethany Saltman and I am an author and a best selling book coach.
Fran Hauser [00:00:17]:
And I'm Fran Hauser. I'm an author, a keynote speaker, and a publishing strategist. These how I did it conversations will inspire listeners to claim their own authority mindset and turn the story they can't stop telling into a book the world needs to read.
Bethany Saltman [00:00:32]:
This is Bookbound, the podcast created in partnership with Share Your Genius. Elaine Lin Hering is an executive leadership consultant, facilitator, speaker, and writer. She works with organizations and individuals to build skills in communication, collaboration, and conflict management. This conversation with Elaine about her USA Today bestselling book, Unlearning Silence: How To Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent, And Live More Fully, is a masterclass in how to get published and stay true to yourself. She talks about what it means to play your own game and the long game. Instead of listening to all the voices in your ear. She talks about finding your own voice on the page, which only happens if you're willing to experiment and the importance of building a team for your Bookbound journey, you're in for a treat. Hey, Elaine, thank you so much for joining us.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:01:25]:
Thanks so much for having me.
Bethany Saltman [00:01:27]:
We'd like to begin every interview with a similar kind of a question, which is basically, how did you know that this Unlearning Silence was a book?
Elaine Lin Hering [00:01:40]:
It's a great question. At the time, I was a partner at a global leadership development firm, and my business partners had written books on difficult conversations and feedback. And so from a business perspective, we were looking for the next book. As I thought about the issue. And this is, you know, this process started in 2015 and it came out in 2024. So just over the course of nine years, when you start thinking about something a lot and you tease out a lot of the nuances and you write articles on it, and there's still more to say. After the article, you start to think, oh, this might be a book.
Bethany Saltman [00:02:23]:
I love it. That's great. And I love that you brought our attention to the fact that this can take a long time.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:02:30]:
Oh my God, so long. So long as you both know, right? And the gestation period and the, at least for me, and I've heard from plenty of other authors, the self doubt, who am I to write a book? Can I really write a book? This is by far the longest thing I have ever written. And it's not 800 words of an article or a blog post or a fill in the blank. And so it really was breaking down. Oh, this is ten chapters. Presumably by the time we sketched it out, that is 30 ten page term papers strung together that all have to talk to each other and have an arc.
Bethany Saltman [00:03:09]:
Love it.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:03:10]:
I think I can do that. I've written ten term papers in my lifetime, and that mindset really helped it feel much more doable. But both in terms of length of time of gestation period, and then, I don't know. I'm not a medical doctor and I don't remember pregnancy or I've blocked it out. So it's, you know, there's lots of growing eyeballs or the book equivalent. Amazing.
Bethany Saltman [00:03:35]:
That's so interesting. So you said to yourself, oh, I think this is a book. And then what did you do?
Elaine Lin Hering [00:03:41]:
I tried to talk myself out of it. You know, I had an 18 month old, I think, at the time that I got serious about the book. And the one thing I would say is, I do not recommend stacking deep work, like writing a book with raising a young child who has night terrors and does not sleep. It is just fundamentally incompatible. Would not wish it on anyone. And at the same time, around 2020, when George Floyd was murdered, I was at home breastfeeding, thinking this book should have been out already. And then there was a pressure that I put on myself of I got to get it done. So then I bought what seems like the prerequisite book titled how to write a book proposal off Amazon, found it utterly unhelpful, spun and spiraled for about six months, trying to follow the prescriptive advice in there.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:04:41]:
So then went down a rabbit hole to research, and then thought, you know what? There are people who actually write book proposals for a living who know them. People who know books, right? I am an expert in my content. I am not an expert in writing a book proposal, and maybe I will never have to do it again. Or writing a book, even. And so then started the process of building a team of what expertise do I have who can come alongside me to help shape this project? And also, there was some validation in it where someone who seemed to know what they were doing in publishing actually thought that this idea had legs, rather than my continuing to think. I don't know. Let's give it a shot.
Bethany Saltman [00:05:28]:
Yeah, that's such a theme. We've been hearing that a lot, right, Fran? People have an idea, and then they reach out to someone who's an expert in the field. And they say this idea has legs, and sometimes that's all you need.
Fran Hauser [00:05:41]:
Yeah, well, it's also interesting, because when we think about writing, when we picture the writing process, we picture a very solitary kind of, you know, like, I'm sitting on my computer, and I'm doing my writing. And when you're talking about a nonfiction book, it's so smart to have that awareness of, okay, what am I an expert in? And what am I not an expert in? And how do I build a team? You know, how do I build a team of people that are going to support me? Whether it's in writing the proposal, whether it's development, editing, or even, like, down the road, maybe it's a social media person to help me with the marketing. I love this idea, Elaine, that you saw that very early on, and how amazing that you're randomly on LinkedIn, and.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:06:29]:
You see this ad, and it was such a calculated decision of, look, the fees, I could make that up by teaching ten in person workshops. And that's something that feels doable to me right now. And it really was the first one of the first times I can remember in my life of me betting on myself, because I grew up in such a DIY culture. Right. You can google it. You can figure it out. I could, maybe, but not really. And also, Fran, when you're talking about building a team, I get a lot of questions of, do you really need a literary agent? And I remember when we were shopping the book, my agent and I were shopping the book.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:07:12]:
And, I mean, there's. She's just a wealth of information. People are in the profession for a reason, with expertise, that I simply do not have 1520 years in publishing to understand the ins and outs, much less the percentages, much less what comes next, much less strategy. And I remember thinking, when my agent was handling a bunch of. We had a couple of preempts, I was like, uh, Google. Right. What is a preempt? Just thinking, this 15% commission that is going to her is the best delegation ever.
Bethany Saltman [00:07:46]:
Absolutely. Can you tell our listeners what a preempt is and then tell us how you found your agent?
Elaine Lin Hering [00:07:52]:
So, let me answer that second question first. So, Megan Stevenson's process was, after we work on a book proposal, if she thinks that it continues to think that it has legs, continues to think that you are someone. I mean, the word that we used was not crazy. And I think there's a more politically correct way of putting that. But there's sort of a screening process that, coming from publishing, she has a spreadsheet of agents. And so she introduced me to a handful. We met and I went with Rachel Extrem Courage, who I thought, she seems to really get the topic and, yeah, just wanted someone who really got it deeply. And then the preempt is as I came to understand it, and you all can define it better.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:08:39]:
I'm sure if there are multiple publishers interested, where there were, in this case, an imprint publisher will come and make you an offer, presumably a large sum of money to try to take the project off the table so that you will secure the publisher and then no one else can bid on it. And so I was still very much of the mindset of let's give traditional publishing a go. I lose very little. I probably take some Zoom meetings, and it's a little bit of my time. And if traditional publishing doesn't pan out, then I can look at self publishing or hybrid publishing. But given how I wanted the book to be positioned, really wanted to give it a shot. So Rachel went out on submission with the proposal, started getting these calendar invites, and I was like, Rachel, what are these? She's like, if publishers are interested, they'll meet with you, sort of kick the tires, make sure you actually understand what you're talking about. See how open you are to feedback.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:09:39]:
So we had a couple of those meetings, and then the tone of the meeting started to change. Where portfolio, the business imprint at Penguin, actually came back with a pitch deck to me saying, wed love to publish you. Heres how we would market it. And again, utter confusion on my part. Whats going on? And then the preempt was an offer coming in saying, hey, we we'd love to publish, and here's the money behind it. And Rachel very wisely said, I think we should decline it. To which I said, I think you're right. It's really hard to walk away from a six figure sum of money.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:10:18]:
And yet strategically, it seems like the right thing to do since there are at least ten more calls that we have scheduled with other publishers. So we met with 16 publishers and then ended up running a two day auction where publishers come and make their best offer. And then day two is, here's the base, and then come back with your best and final, we're two years out now. I'm not sure I fully processed it. It all just happened. And then it was, oh, shoot, I'm under a deadline, which I've come to write the thing, and I've come to realize all of that is negotiable. Life happens. People understand that.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:10:57]:
Editors understand that. But I, given that, I already felt like this book should have been out two to five years before we even pitched it. It was a. All right, December 16. I lose childcare for the year. Let's get this first draft to them. So we were off to the races.
Fran Hauser [00:11:15]:
Well, and that's the thing with the agent. It's not only helping you package and position the book so that publishers get excited about it, but then it's also all the negotiating. And by the way, I know. I believe, if I remember correctly, that you're an expert in negotiating.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:11:33]:
Yeah. But not in publishing. I don't know what the standards are in publishing. Also, I think there's a precursor fran of not even the negotiating, but even which editors to pitch the project to.
Fran Hauser [00:11:45]:
The Rolodex.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:11:46]:
The Rolodex that I, as a layperson, can only figure out so much from by what's on someone's webpage versus Rachel's like, oh, I think that person's about to go out on parental leave. So then it would sit in their inbox or, you know, there's so much in the ecosystem that I am a firm believer that nothing is a solo sport. And writing, publishing a book certainly is a team sport.
Fran Hauser [00:12:13]:
Yeah.
Bethany Saltman [00:12:14]:
Oh, my gosh. Well, congratulations. That is just a very exciting, thrilling ride that you've been on.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:12:21]:
Yes. And that was just to sell the book. Right. Then we had to write the thing. Yeah.
Bethany Saltman [00:12:27]:
So talk to us about that. So, book is so good. It's so rich. When we work with students, we talk a lot about organizing principle and how to build that framework. And you've done such an amazing job here. It's a two part structure, two acts, if you will. How did you come up with that? And then I also really would love to know how you developed the work, specifically the examples and reflective exercises. I'm really curious.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:12:56]:
I was under the mindset, given the books that my business partners had written, that other people in the community had written, that you have to have a three part framework, or as Kim, Scott, and others would say, you need a two by two, the McKinsey approach. And this concept would just not fit into a two by two or three part framework, or my brain doesn't work that way. And that's part of why I was spinning, because I had absorbed all this well intentioned advice that the Internet and other people have, and it didn't work for me. And Megan said, you could have two parts. We could have awareness and action. I was like, well, that makes sense, so let's do that. And the exercises and the stories are very much reflective of how I teach. I, so my own background is in leadership development, have done more than a decade of facilitating workshops and the storytelling, the relatability, a lot of that is how I teach, as well as small group reflection.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:13:57]:
And so wanted to bake that into the book to make it user friendly. If you're picking it up just for yourself or reading it with a book club, with your team, that we give you some meat to work with alongside the reader's guides that I have on my website. But the other piece that I really struggled with is, is this a business book or is this a wellness book? Where on the bookshelves is it going to sit? And this started as a business book because that's the world I come from in corporate education, leadership development, and I always knew it would cross over. But one of the reasons that I went with Penguin Life, whose brand is one big idea to change the world or change lives, is because the more we talked about it in these different meetings, it really struck me that you cannot be well if you are silenced or if you feel like you have to be silent. And so I thought, you know what? Let me let publishers or bookstores, or whoever it is who decides, I don't even know, figure out whether it's going to sit in the business section of a bookstore or psychology section or a fill in the blank. And in different bookstores, it sits in different places. The bisect codes which label what categories are a combination of leadership, psychology, some other things. Again, it was really letting go of the things that are not my expertise or purview and letting others make those calls.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:15:31]:
And I have the UK version here. The UK subtitle actually ends with lead with courage, whereas the US version is How To Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent And Live More Fully, which we were really positioning more around. Wellness UK wanted to go with lead with courage. I said, look, I trust you know the market better and the contents of the book are exactly the same, other than adding some U's right in behavior or the UK spelling. The other thing though that I really thought about in writing the book is the emotional arc. And again, that is reflective of how I teach particularly, and how I particularly with a topic that can be as potentially heavy as silence, needing to give the reader some relief. So alongside talking about harassment and inequity and bias, also weaving in Top Chef and queer Eye and the Golden State warriors, right, we talk about my debate with my husband over how to clean the toilet, as well as mother daughter dynamics as well as workplace dynamics. I mean, it's all intertwined and reinforces how we've learned or potentially can unlearn silence.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:16:49]:
But that was a real wrestling point of is this a wellness book? If it's a business book, you know, I'm supposed to tell these types of stories or supposed to have these. I mean, there's so much should. And then really thinking, how do I write the book that I think I need or that people like me need? Rather than trying to mimic more of what's already out on the market, which is already so skewed in terms of leadership. Books toward white male authors.
Bethany Saltman [00:17:22]:
Hey, Bookbound ones. If you're loving this interview as much as we are, we think you'll want to join us for this very special first of its kind. Read like a writer book club. What the heck is a read like a writer book club? I'm so glad you asked. This idea came to us after working with so many aspiring authors who are still reading books like a reader, liking this, not liking that. Instead of studying successful books for lessons and how to weave their own stories into clear structures or develop frameworks that really change people's lives. And we thought, hey, why leave so much learning on the table? Then we realized that we have this incredible archive of author interviews. Yes, this very podcast.
Bethany Saltman [00:18:03]:
And so we put it all together and said, hey, let's host a read like a writer book club. This is how it works. For the low price of $175, we'll meet once a month over Zoom for seven months. Our meetings will take place on Wednesdays at noon eastern time. We'll give you a list of books related podcast episodes to review and a simple reading guide. We'll meet up and discuss together and in small groups. Fran and I are so excited to get started. We love reading.
Bethany Saltman [00:18:33]:
We love you guys. And we love studying books with other women. Sign up at bookboundpodcast.com/club. We can't wait to see you there.
Fran Hauser [00:18:44]:
Bethany and I talk a lot about who is your muse when you're writing the book, and that would look very differently if it's a business book or if it's a wellness book, clearly. Right? So it sounded like what I heard you say is, I wanted to write the book that I would want out in the world, that, you know, that I would want for myself. Were you your own muse or was there another reader that you had in mind when you were writing the book?
Elaine Lin Hering [00:19:10]:
Yeah, I mean, I, and someone like me was very much my muse. And that's another sort of two part analysis, which is this a book that is just focused on people who have been silenced and struggle with speaking up, or is it also a book for people who silence others? Leaders, managers, are those two separate books? Can they really fit within the same book? And there's so much wrestling. And so I landed on we, as human beings, we may have learned silence, and if we're human, we also silence other people. And so they go hand in hand. But that was another piece of, when I'm thinking about the reader, there's sort of two readers, right? The first reader I'm thinking about is people like me who have been silenced, who have been told to make yourselves small, who it leads to self doubt. And a lot of people say, I wrote the book that I needed when I was younger. I say I wrote the book that I still need, because the silence we've learned goes so deep, and the people in the systems around us continue to silence us based on gender, race, class, education, ability, any of the above. So I still need it, and I'm still learning.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:20:29]:
It wasn't until the book sold and then the book came out that I really started to believe that I actually had a voice.
Bethany Saltman [00:20:38]:
Yes. And so I'd love to hear you talk about finding your voice on the page. I love the story you tell about the master chef, you know, and people telling people, cook your own food. I love that. And we talk about that with people all the time. You want to find your authority when you write the book that only you could write. And so talk to us a little bit about that process of finding your voice on the page.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:21:07]:
It really messes with your mind to write a book on Unlearning Silence while unlearning your own silence. I just. I think any book turns you inside out. And this meta process and all I was navigating while writing it really just felt next level. But I think there really is a, how do you block out all the shoulds? You know, it's got to be a three part framework. It's supposed to sound like this, the two by two. And I believe it's Anne Lamont who says, write the shitty first draft. And as much respect as I have, I actually refused to call my first draft shitty because I didn't want to judge it in that way.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:21:51]:
It was hard enough for me to believe there was something valuable at all. So I started calling out the get it out draft. Just get it out. And then I could clean it up. And there's something about just doing and experimenting that at least gives you something to work with. And the get it out then is like clay that can be molded and shaped and refined, but until you sort of put it out there, even for yourself or anyone you're writing with, to see there's no clay to work with. And I found that mindset really liberating. Also in parallel, I was posting on LinkedIn, just some of the ideas, and it was resonating with people I already knew that it had legs from working with clients, talking with people about it, coaching around these ideas, but to see random strangers who I don't even know, engaging with the content, having aha.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:22:43]:
Moments that you can't do this in isolation. So there's that feedback loop that really fuels you. It wasn't until I signed off on the final, final draft actually post copy edits I was doing the final review that I sent my editor a note saying, I think I can write. And she was like, well, yeah, obviously you can. But it took me that long to say, okay, I've literally written the book. I've written the manuscript, written the book. Other people think it's good. It makes sense, it's coherent, and then I'm reading it just as a reader rather than the author.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:23:20]:
Maybe that's the distinction, right? I'm just picking up and reading it as a reader, and it resonates. You can't find your voice unless you do something. So there's an act of experimentation and action and massaging it. It wasn't until I read it as a book, I was like, oh, I guess my voice is research backed because as a woman, particularly as an asian american woman, there's a double standard. So I can't just say stuff. It's got to be respect. It is paying attention to the emotional arc. It is talking about things that are relatable and also talks about Top Chef and queer eye.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:24:01]:
Apparently that's my voice, and I didn't know that until I did it.
Fran Hauser [00:24:06]:
I love the idea, too, of reading the book as a reader. Like, especially if you can give yourself some space after you finish writing and then just give yourself a little bit of time and distance from the book and then come back to it and read it as a reader. And that's when it's so truly. And I literally had the same experience where I did that, and I was like, oh, this is actually pretty good. This is good. I'm like, I'm happy with it. So, question on the title, Unlearning Silence. Was that always the title, or did that change throughout the process?
Elaine Lin Hering [00:24:42]:
Yeah, I think I'm actually quite unique in that regard because that was always the title. That was the concept. That was the key idea. That was the big idea. We pitched it as Unlearning Silence subtitle TBD, and it stuck. The subtitle we wordsmithed for far longer than I ever want to do again, but also seems really typical.
Fran Hauser [00:25:07]:
Well, it is, because the subtitle, with a prescriptive, prescriptive nonfiction, the subtitle really needs to clearly articulate what the reader value proposition is. Right. But I think you did it so beautifully. So this is the subtitle. You mentioned it before, but it's How To Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent And Live More Fully, which is very clear. It's very specific.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:25:30]:
Thank you. And this is, again, as an author, it's like when you cook your own food, maybe you're more critical of the food that you've cooked than you would be of anyone else. I still see the potential downfalls in it. Right. When I see unleashed talent, I'm like, well, that's the nod to the leader, unleashing someone else's talent, live more fully, some people think is too squishy of a phrase. I. But we really didn't want to have another book that said, thrive. And so it also was really liberating to say, look, this book is a point in time.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:26:07]:
I'm not going to get everything right. I may evolve my thinking over time, but the purpose of this book is to catalyze a conversation in society more broadly, in our workplaces, in our relationships around silence, much like we talk much more about shame after Brene Brown's TED talk, I want us to talk about silence. And it's a jumping off point for all that conversation. And that really took the pressure off to make it perfect, because it is still the product of a human being who is imperfect.
Bethany Saltman [00:26:47]:
So talk to us about the marketing of the book and how you got the word out, how you see that. Because we like to think about platform and pr as really two sides of the same coin. What's the relationship between your platform, what you started with, and then how you got the word out?
Elaine Lin Hering [00:27:03]:
Yeah, I'm smiling only because when my agent and I sold the book, I had precisely 1192 followers on LinkedIn, and LinkedIn was the only social platform that I was on. And I share that sort of with a chuckle because I'm embarrassed of it. Some well intentioned people had given me advice a long time ago that if your content is good enough, you don't need to be on social media. And I actually listened to that advice, and that is advice that I wish I had not listened to, wish that I had interrogated, and again, would encourage any listener to interrogate the advice that you're getting. Does it make sense for you? Does it resonate? What might be the pitfalls of that advice? I wish I had engaged with LinkedIn much earlier. So my platform at the time that we sold the book, I would say was quite small if we just think about social media, where the strength of my platform came from was being in leadership development, having a book of clients who we were already selling the workshop to. And the proposition was, every workshop we sell, every participant gets a copy of the book, and that drives book sales. But I spent a lot of my career, the majority of my career, building someone else's platform, building someone else's brand, and this idea of Elaine Lin Hering or Unlearning Silence as its own identity or brand or platform, fill in the blanken language around it, was new to me, and also hard.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:28:40]:
Coming from a collective culture where having a servant heart, putting others before you, considering others before yourself, not boasting marketing, is hard. It feels like, are people sick of hearing about me? I might be sick of talking about me. Am I taking up too much space? Okay, apparently 10% of your followers, if that see anyone post. So maybe I'm not being repetitive, all these things. So when it came to marketing the book again, building a team and trying to figure out the publisher has a team, I'm hearing all these perspectives about what they might do or not do. And I chose to hire outside pr. I worked with Cave Henriks who are phenomenal in launching business books again, looking for expertise that matched the type of book and the genre I was in as a little bit of a safety net in case the publisher didn't show up as they had said they would. And of course, Penguin life did a phenomenal job.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:29:48]:
And Cave Henriks, I think they worked seamlessly, hand in hand together to look at podcasts, to look at traditional print, to look at, you know, McKinsey author talks all these different avenues. Where do we want this idea to be showing up? And where can we plant seeds? So to me, we're still in very early stages. In the next three to five years, I'd love to see the concept and the book embedded in leadership development programs, because so much as we want people to speak up, you also need leaders and managers who unlearn the ways they silence the people they lead. And particularly white Menta would be pleasantly surprised if they were to be quick to pick up the book, but I'm not betting on it. Versus every advanced leadership program in a corporation says, you've got to read this. You've got to engage with the concepts. I think that's how we're going to get that population to change. Which goes back to, who's the reader, who's the muse? And one reader population was people like me who have been silenced.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:30:56]:
I wanted people to feel seen, known and heard of, to know that it wasn't them, it wasn't their fault. They weren't the ones who were crazy. There's this thing called silence. And then the other demographic is well intentioned leaders, leaders who really want to lead in a way that unleashes the talent on their team, that brings out the best in the people that they lead. And there are parts of the book where I'm inviting those well intentioned leaders to eavesdrop and to listen in. And then there are parts of the book where I'm saying, okay, leaders, this is your call to action. So there's just a lot of dancing that happens. But thinking about the marketing as, okay, who are the different populations? Where do they hang out? Therefore, where do I need to show up? Where can we plant seeds to continue to play the long game? Because this is about behavior change, and behavior change is not quick.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:31:53]:
So let's plant seeds and cultivate them over time.
Fran Hauser [00:31:57]:
And that's such a healthy mindset, this idea of the long game, versus really focusing on preorders and, like those first few weeks and getting the sales numbers so that you can make the best seller list. And first of all, it's so unhealthy, it's so stressful, versus approaching it with this type of long game mindset, which is, you know what this book is going to be. It's going to be out for a while, right? It's going to be making an impact for a while. And I just love, Elaine, that you brought that up, because I think it's really important for anyone who's listening, who's, you know, who's working on a book, because there is this crazy amount of pressure on that launch period.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:32:37]:
And I want to be clear that maybe I sound slightly more zen now than I did three months ago, but I got caught up in it as well. As much as I was trying to resist, everything is, I had friends texting me saying, well, you're not on the list, the New York Times list this week. And I was like, can you please not, if you want to talk with each other. If you want to deal with the gamesmanship of whether I'm a top release in Amazon or this or that, talk with each other, do not talk with me. I need the cone of silence. And it did hit Amazon top release for a while. It was number one and number three in the category. It did hit the USA Today bestseller list, which I'm really grateful for.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:33:22]:
And as someone who's now a solopreneur, first time author, woman of color, I mean, all those things. It's such a weird dance to really try to not play into the system but also realize that you are part of the system. That when someone sees national bestseller or USA Today bestseller, that signals something. So as much as I didn't want to play into it, I also knew it. And finding what is healthy, my editor gave me really good advice to say, don't read reviews on Amazon and Goodreads. Those are for readers, not for authors.
Bethany Saltman [00:33:57]:
So good.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:33:58]:
I'm so grateful. I resisted the urge to read them for about three weeks. And then one late night, I went down the rabbit hole again. I'm human, so I just want listeners to know I'm also human. And it's okay because then you can choose what boundaries you want. Some person, I'm salty about it gave me a one star review on Goodreads, which totally messed with the average, didn't leave any words, and I'm just like. And then needing to let it go. And also, Deepa Purushathaman giving me really good advice of define success for yourself.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:34:33]:
Because the market, the industry, other people, sales numbers are one metric of success. But I ended up again experimenting with a definition of success, which was moving through the world with kindness and grace for myself and for the people I encounter. Oh, and staying sane. That was the first part.
Bethany Saltman [00:34:56]:
Yeah.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:34:57]:
Those were all things I could control versus I couldn't control whether the New York Times is an editorial list. Right? It's not. Even so, all these things, there's so many pieces that the layperson doesn't know or even well intentioned friends who are excited about the gamesmanship of it and figuring out what is success for yourself and what is going to be healthy for you.
Fran Hauser [00:35:22]:
Oh, gosh, I think we need to wrap there. That's just perfect. Honestly, I was going to ask you, what advice would you give? But you did.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:35:31]:
I mean, from the writing of the book to the marketing of the book. Play your own game. Know why you're going down this path, who you're looking to reach, what impact you're looking to drive and play that game because there's so many should, so many opinions, so much misinformation. So I think there's two pieces of advice. Play your own game and build your team. Don't go it alone.
Fran Hauser [00:35:58]:
Beautiful. We're so grateful. Elaine, you're amazing. We love you.
Bethany Saltman [00:36:05]:
Yes, this was amazing. Our listeners are going to be so, I mean, this is perfect.
Fran Hauser [00:36:12]:
So tell us, where can everyone find you? How can they connect with you?
Elaine Lin Hering [00:36:15]:
Yeah, I am at elainelinhering.com. or Elaine Lin Hering on LinkedIn. Basically every weekday, there's also an option to sign up for a free monthly newsletter with tips on how to use your voice and build cultures of voice. Would love to connect.
Fran Hauser [00:36:33]:
Yes. Well, I'm definitely going to start following you, if I'm not already. I love it. You're the best. Thank you.
Elaine Lin Hering [00:36:39]:
Of course. Thanks for having me.
Bethany Saltman [00:36:43]:
Thank you for joining us on Bookbound.
Fran Hauser [00:36:45]:
If you like what you heard, please subscribe and rate and review us on your favorite podcast listening platform.
Bethany Saltman [00:36:52]:
Please visit us at bookboundpodcast.com for more on us and how we work with authors.