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Technology's daily show (formerly the Technology Brothers Podcast). Streaming live on X and YouTube from 11 - 2 PM PST Monday - Friday. Available on X, Apple, Spotify, and YouTube.
You're watching TBPN. Today is Friday, 09/26/2025. We are live from the TBPN Ultradome, the Temple Of Technology, the fortress of finance, the capital de capital.
Speaker 2:De capital.
Speaker 1:El capital. De capital. Massive news in the AI world in the product layer. In the application layer, two apps launched yesterday, really, two features. One in the Meta AI app called Vibes, and one in the ChatGPT app called Pulse.
Speaker 1:Two very different apps. Neither of them are gonna save you time and money. The only one that can save you time and money is Ramp. Right. Ramp.com.
Speaker 1:Time is money. Save both. Easy to use corporate cards, bill payments, accounting, and a whole lot more all in one place. Good morning to everyone in the chat. We had John Exley live in the TEP And Ultradome yesterday.
Speaker 1:Was great seeing him.
Speaker 2:Stop by. It's great to see you, John.
Speaker 1:We got a couple app demos, caught up with a few folks, did a little photo shoot yesterday. Had a great time. We did. And of course, we are live on restream, restream.io. One livestream, 30 plus destinations.
Speaker 1:Multi stream, reach your audience wherever they are.
Speaker 2:Wherever they are.
Speaker 1:Oh, we also get Everybody's real quickly, just to say thanks to everyone before we go into our top stories. Grepitile sent a book called Fault Lines about the history of bugs, because of course, Grepitile helps you find bugs. And I thought this was interesting. They tell the story of the first bug at the Harvard Computation Lab in 1947. Said one relay stalled.
Speaker 1:The technician checked the console, traced the path, and opened the door to relay 70 on panel f. Inside, a moth was jammed in the switch. They removed it, taped it into the lab log, and captioned it, first actual case of bug being found. The log made the term bug literal and cemented the practice. Find the cause.
Speaker 1:Write it down. Keep the knowledge.
Speaker 2:Very cool. Let's get into the news. Yes. And we have I guess we should highlight. We're gonna have none other than Rune on at 1PM today.
Speaker 2:So that'll be in a couple hours. Yeah. I can't wait for that. In the meantime, a lot of stuff to talk through. The timeline has been in turmoil.
Speaker 2:It has. Interesting that Pulse was launched the same day as Vibes. It's almost got like very six different. Months. To
Speaker 1:reaction. Big big technology companies.
Speaker 2:Well, I think yeah. I I have to wonder. I mean, ChatGPT has the benefit of, like, they're launching Pulse in the core app. Mhmm. People are just gonna discover it and use it if they're paid, and Yep.
Speaker 2:They can roll it out that way.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Vibes, I thought it was interesting that they even launched this so aggressively into the timeline
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Because the reaction was almost universally negative.
Speaker 1:On x.
Speaker 2:On x. Yes. The question is, will children like it? Will the elderly like it?
Speaker 1:Moms like it. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But we should we should get into it.
Speaker 1:Well, let's let's start by playing the actual video for everyone. So if you haven't seen Alex Wang, who we had on the show last week at Meta Connect, posted the initial launch. I think he launched the entire product. He said excited to share vibes, a new feed in the Meta AI app for short form AI generated videos. This is on the back of the mid journey partnership.
Speaker 1:We can go way deeper into, what's going on here in the reaction. But, I mean, just the numbers on this is crazy. 2,800 likes, 2,400 quote tweets or retweets, and one and one point six thousand comments. Insane ratio. Insane ratio.
Speaker 1:But this is, of course you know, there there there's a lot of nuance here that we're gonna go into, but let's kick it off by watching the actual one minute trailer for Vibes, the new app from Meta. It's in the Meta AI app. You actually have to, reinstall the app or go and update the app. You're you're channeling the the vibes? Are you feeling the vibes?
Speaker 1:The create button. So when this launched, I went to the Meta AI app, and I, and I typed in, okay. I Meta AI. I'm ready to use the new vibes feature. How do you do it?
Speaker 1:And it was very confused, and it was saying, like, I'm not aware of that. I don't know anything about that. It's because the the older app was not aware of the new app existing, and so I had to go to the App Store and actually refresh. But once I did, I got in and I saw a lot of this type of content. An astronaut on a bike, two bears boxing, a cat talking at a news desk, women running in clouds.
Speaker 1:All very AI aesthetic. It has a very unique look to it that I would just describe as, like, the AI art look these days. It's not trying to
Speaker 2:Not the AI.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It feels like it's not trying to be anything but AI in the same way that a lot of a lot of CGI and three d renders have a certain aesthetic to them.
Speaker 2:It's an interesting thing where if you showed one of these assets to somebody ten years ago, they would have thought, that looks really cool. Yeah. And now the reaction is that looks like AI. Yep. And people just don't think it's cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like, I you know, personally, I I think there's a market for this and obviously, this is the worst that the model the the worst the models will ever be. Yeah. So the images will get better but I think the reaction Shyam Sankar, he quoted it. He said, read the Wall of Quote tweets that categorically reject this AI slop.
Speaker 2:We are so back. Are going to win, and he hits it with a salute Salute. American flag. Which is crazy to be
Speaker 1:kicking it off.
Speaker 2:Crazy to dunk. Crazy. You don't see Cham dunking.
Speaker 1:No. I mean, they're also partnered. I'm pretty sure Palantir is model agnostic, uses LAMA, which is then Alex is working defense LAMA. You know, like, when people are not down with a thing, like, you know, they're gonna speak their mind.
Speaker 2:It's pretty Yeah. I mean, I think I think the it's interesting because x is such a microcosm. Right? It's not a reflection of of the average internet user. It's certainly not a reflection of the average meta platforms user.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I think that there's another world where they just started promoting this in Instagram and Facebook and just started driving users What of news? Quietly. Yep. And I think this was like a very unforced like PR Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Error Mhmm. To come out because
Speaker 1:To go in
Speaker 2:the They line. You can't tell somebody you you basically you know, I believe that they want they they truly want and will build their version of personal super intelligence. But when you've just been hitting people over the head with messaging about personal super intelligence and then the first thing you launch from MSL with your new massive partnership with Midjourney Mhmm. Is a trough, a slop. That's that's rough.
Speaker 2:Right? Yeah. It it sends a signal to the market and I think this just makes their job harder from a recruiting standpoint. Right? Do you wanna work it Anthropic?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Which believes in machine god, which has like a cult. Right? Their team, they didn't lose a lot of people in the talent wars. Right?
Speaker 2:They even lost some people for to cursor and got them back a week later.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Luke Metra was commenting on this. He said, I would not be surprised if this tweet alone is going to make Meta Super Intelligences raise their signing bonuses by $1,000,000
Speaker 2:Yeah. Or even more. Right? Because Because when look at your options, it's like you can go live in Elon world and work on xAI and be super hardcore and sleep in the office and get that sort of tap into that Elon
Speaker 1:I mean, there's a fair amount of slop going on in Sure.
Speaker 2:There's there's slop, but it but at least it's companion just like stuff. At least you're buying you're riding with Elon who is a
Speaker 1:But you have the cool narrative around, like, building Colossus two really fast and going after like Yeah.
Speaker 2:Then you look at their
Speaker 1:benchmarks and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:Elon posts swap. But when you look at their like, when they talk about benchmarks, what benchmarks are they really going after? It's like really Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Elon does a good job of like, he'll be retweeting a lot of, quite frankly, like, Slov videos. Right?
Speaker 1:But then he will refocus the conversation back on, we're gonna solve physics. Or or, like like, we're gonna we're gonna discover new physics. We're gonna do really hard math. And, you know, let let's give Meta a couple days to see if they can kind of steer the conversation back towards something that gets technologists excited because they could. It is possible that they come out with something.
Speaker 2:For sure. The the it's just when you have the entire world waiting and honestly kind of preying on their downfall. Right? Yeah. Like the world is not rooting.
Speaker 2:The world broadly, the industry broadly, when you look at all these different camps, OpenAI lost a bunch of top talent Yep. MSL. They're not they're not sitting there Yep. Excited for Meta to do something amazing Yep. Right?
Speaker 2:Which I'm sure they will at different points. And so public opinion is already against you. And then you come out and launch a product that is dedicated to the thing that people like the least about AI.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I have a rebuttal. But first, I'm going to tell you about Privy. Wallet infrastructure for every bank. Privy makes it easy to build on crypto, rail, securely spin up white label wallets, sign transactions, and integrate on chain infrastructure all through one simple API.
Speaker 2:The official wallet infrastructure provider of the TBP and Ultradome.
Speaker 1:That's what you call a layup. Boom. Boom. Slams it down.
Speaker 2:Thank you. So yeah. Basically, they just set up this they set up the perfect product, the perfect video
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:To just allow the entire internet to do the craziest alley oop
Speaker 1:dunks. Okay. So, first off, it the I I totally get I I the the the backlash is undeniable. That's just a fact. Like like, the the the timeline hates it in terms of, like, if Met is on the offense today and the timeline's on the defense, like, the defense slammed it down.
Speaker 1:Not a single point got through. But, what's weird about this is that David Holes, the founder of Midjourney, who created this model, who created this aesthetic, is loved in tech. And he's one of the, I think, the most one of the most respected founders. He hasn't raised a dime of venture capital. He built this
Speaker 2:incredible He raised a bit of money in the terms of revenue Yeah. From
Speaker 1:But in general, mid journey has been the one video generator, image generator that has been sort of celebrated as as the least sloppy, I guess, and and the most opinionated. And so I feel like maybe the Meta team just thought that by partnering with Midjourney, they would beat the slop allegations. But it is weird that we're not seeing any of the goodwill that David Holes has transfer over to MSL, which which I I don't know how to unpack some David Pitch pitch me
Speaker 2:I mean
Speaker 1:back on that.
Speaker 2:David is not they had an announcement. Yep. But he's not a you know, he didn't post yesterday. It's not like he came out and was like, hey, guys. I'm really excited for our new checkout meta Sure.
Speaker 2:AI vibes. Yeah. That's good. Also, name.
Speaker 1:Name is little bit stale.
Speaker 2:It's just the most overused word of the year.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, didn't you call the top on slop like a year ago or something like that? I remember you saying like
Speaker 2:earlier this year, I just I I think
Speaker 1:You said like the terms overused at this point.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's just wide, you know, overly used. Yeah. And Meta created a product that is giving slop. It's a bull market in slop again.
Speaker 1:Yes. Because Okay.
Speaker 2:So But but again, and and and I wanna be clear that I'm not like putting like I don't judge MSL based on this product. Yeah. But I I judge the I I think it was a poor marketing strategy for AI efforts at Meta broadly
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:When in a few days, they're launching a product that has a heads up display with AI built into it. It's like get people to focus on that.
Speaker 1:Yep. Right? Maybe. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Like that that's a functionality that's actually really cool. We've used it. Can walk around. You can be like, hey Meta, looking at my fridge right now. What should I make for dinner?
Speaker 2:And it'll tell you and it'll give you recipes and it'll show it on a heads up display and it's awesome. Yeah. But this was just a totally unforced error.
Speaker 1:There is a little
Speaker 2:Like it felt like it felt like the it really to me, I was seeing parallels between, you know, that iconic image of Mark Zuckerberg, like, in the metaverse Yep. When everybody saw it and they were like,
Speaker 1:oh, it's we we level graphics.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And it was like, oh, it's over. Like, the metaverse is over.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Interesting. So the I have a few I have a few things I wanna peel back on that. So first, Cognition is the maker of Devon. Devon is the AI software engineer.
Speaker 1:Crush your backlog with your personal AI engineering team. Go sign up, please.
Speaker 2:Also the makers of Windsor.
Speaker 1:Also the makers of Windsor. Fantastic.
Speaker 2:They're they're absolutely cooking everything. And and the hero Fantastic transition, John. Tried to interrupt my you you perfectly interrupted my rant with an ad.
Speaker 1:Yes. It's
Speaker 2:a great kind of respect.
Speaker 1:I want you to shift back to the Studio Ghibli moment, Images and ChatGPT, and try and relive that. Because I feel like that came out, and it was AI generated content. It had a very AI generated aesthetic. There's a world where that looked really sloppy,
Speaker 2:but It didn't. It was What
Speaker 1:what was your experience?
Speaker 2:It was AI perfectly emulating at scale Mhmm. One of the most loved aesthetics on the Internet
Speaker 1:Yes. Ever.
Speaker 2:Wasn't that was the beauty of it. It was like anybody could make something
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. That wasn't slop.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was like, you know, time from somebody having the idea for the prompt to a beautiful image. And sure, got overused. Sure, you don't see them a ton anymore.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But that was I remember the the the the little joy of turning an image of like me and my fam you know, with Yes. My family into a Ghibli Yes. Picture and that was fun.
Speaker 1:It was a super fun day on the Internet. We had a ton of fun with it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I made multiple. I had a couple that went super viral.
Speaker 2:Everybody made, like, 50.
Speaker 1:Everyone made a ton. And then eventually, it got burned out.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Like any like any aesthetic or meta, it just burns out on the Internet.
Speaker 1:Right? So
Speaker 2:Like launch videos are
Speaker 1:There were there were a few hot takes in the timeline that were like, I don't like this. Then then there were also the there was also the backlash to, like, you shouldn't be stealing Studio Ghibli's aesthetic. Your
Speaker 2:Yeah. If I was I was Studio Ghibli, I don't know if it like, what's your what's your verdict? Do you think that was good overall net positive for Studio Ghibli, or do you think it it actually
Speaker 1:Well, I ran the I ran a sort of test where I took a image from Oppenheimer, and I Studio Ghibli ed it of Einstein talking to Robert Oppenheimer. It's this iconic scene, I Ghibli ed it. And I put that up, and that got, like, a thousand likes because everything that was decent, every decent meme that got Ghibli ed that day got a thousand likes. And then I took a a real frame from Spirited Away, the most iconic Studio Ghibli film, like a real frame, not an AI generated one, and I put that up. 10 likes.
Speaker 1:And it was very funny to be like, people don't actually want Studio Ghibli. They want Studio Ghibli filter applied to something else iconic because it allows them to do this mental puzzle of, oh, I'm seeing something that's iconic. It's the bell curve meme, Or it's the always two astronauts in space shooting at each other always has been. Ghibli'd. And it's like, oh, I I get the joke.
Speaker 2:Well, and and what was magical about is is you took a style of of illustration and animate you know, illustration Yes. That historically was extremely expensive and time consuming and made it instant. And it was basically as good. Right? I'm sure I'm sure a true Studio Ghibli enthusiast would be
Speaker 1:like Yeah.
Speaker 2:I'm gonna pull up the two pictures and look like they didn't get this
Speaker 1:Yes. Yes.
Speaker 2:Part of the hand right or whatever. But it was beautiful. It was magical. Yes. And that was that was undeniable.
Speaker 2:Yes. And I'm glad we're not seeing them at at And
Speaker 1:if you're trying to make something beautiful and undeniable, go to figma.com. Think bigger, build faster. Figma helps design development teams build great products together. But my point was that with the Studio Ghibli aesthetic, it was actually personal superintelligence. It was personal.
Speaker 1:And what made that go so viral in a way that I think everyone liked was that they could Studio Ghibli themselves. They could Studio Ghibli it acted as this interesting filter where I saw remember the very first one that went viral? It was a man with his wife. And he was like, life hack. Take a photo with you and your loved one Yeah.
Speaker 1:And Studio Ghibli it and send it to them. They will be overjoyed.
Speaker 2:I remember the first twelve hours, people were like, I don't know. How are ever how's everybody making these? Yeah. It was still like there was a narrow window of that.
Speaker 1:Yes. But there's something where if you empower the individual to create something that's personal to them, then they are more inspired, more defensive of it, more happy with it. There's something there that's that that that that's more satisfying, even if it is like it's it's not slop because there's still that element of uniqueness in it.
Speaker 2:And this gets into the huge problem with Meta AI vibes.
Speaker 1:Vibes is that it's not it doesn't start with your Instagram profile. And I was pitching this. I was pitching this. Was saying, Instagram No.
Speaker 2:Even even even more specifically, you were showing some of the results you got this morning. And and and to anybody that hasn't downloaded the app yet, you downloaded it and it's a bunch of high quality assets for what they are. Right? Well, you can say
Speaker 1:It's the mid journey explore page. Yeah. Like, literally.
Speaker 2:So it's like elite mid journey, like, results. Yeah. Right? Animated and, you know, it's it's solid. But it's it's more like a just a collection of assets.
Speaker 2:It's not a, you know, they've they've basically seeded the feed Yes. With a bunch of super curated assets. Yes. And everybody, I think, we had a few people on the team looking at it. And everybody's getting the exact same results.
Speaker 2:Yes. Like almost a mirror image.
Speaker 1:The if you open the Meta AI app, I can guarantee you that within 10 scrolls, you will see a monkey on a jet ski.
Speaker 2:It's Let's give it up for a monkey.
Speaker 1:The monkey on jet ski, it's a great video, honestly.
Speaker 2:Hit that horn.
Speaker 1:Hit that horn. Hey. Every once in a while, you gotta slop it up. You gotta you gotta
Speaker 2:You gotta put the monkey on
Speaker 1:the jet. You know, you can be sitting here and critique it, but good slop is tasty. And, and so the monkey on the jet ski is great. There's a cat in the newscast. There there are a few feeds.
Speaker 1:They very clearly went and picked the best AI videos from mid journey and whatever they'd created and curated a, like, a starter feed before you get into the random algo to kind of seed your algorithm. And so you automatically see the same thing as you scroll on your feed or my feed. It's all the same right now. Eventually, it'll be highly user generated, and then eventually, it'll be highly algorithm driven such that you could just wind up seeing I'm I'm I guarantee this is where this going. Woah.
Speaker 1:So so so I actually love those mid journey nineteen eighties videos that have been on Instagram where someone takes the aesthetic of, like, imagine you're a Swiss banker in 1980 in Switzerland. And it's like Cherry Cherry Lady is the song that plays, and it's just a whole bunch of mid journey images back to back to back. I love those videos, and that's what my feed will be once the Meta AI feed tailors to me. Right now, it's just general AI video. And I feel like when I see generic AI video, it's just a movie that I've seen.
Speaker 1:It's a very cool movie once, but I only wanna consume ten minutes of it. And then I'm like, I'm good. I don't really wanna revisit it. I wanna go see something new. So I don't think this at at this stage, this level of content will be that sticky.
Speaker 1:It'll be novel to to scroll for a lot of people if they haven't seen it. Yeah. But but eventually, it will become more tailored, you will see stuff that you actually do like to over time. And I think it'll be a long time until they really get the long tail of people. I think live players will basically stay out of this forever.
Speaker 1:I think that a lot of people will get kinda sucked in, but they're already getting sucked in on Reels and TikTok and and YouTube shorts and stuff. Yeah. Anyway, Vanta, automate compliance, manage risk, improve trust continuously. Vanta's trust management platform takes the manual work out of your security and compliance process and replaces it with continuous automation. It sucks.
Speaker 1:You're your first framework or managing a complex program. And so my my pitch to Adam Osseri and the Instagram team was was make AI video personal, make super intelligence personal, go and preload a generative image for everyone's Instagram profile picture. And just like when you upload any photo, you can filter it. Go and prerender that and give everyone a Gibley or give everyone a mid journey vision of what they would be like based on their most liked photo or their most recent photo that they've shared. And then just have that kind of pre rendered, ready to go, and then they can share that.
Speaker 1:And you can create this, like, viral moment where people are sharing, like, the, like, the Studio Ghibli moment, their own personality brought through Yeah. In an illustration instead of just here's a bunch of random
Speaker 2:Yeah. And and and I would say
Speaker 1:I guess everyone likes you
Speaker 2:know, I think, obviously, we love the meta team. Yeah. And we're excited what about what MSL is gonna create broadly. But it's hard for me not to just give this a scathing review specifically because it's not just a bunch of user generated content. It is I mean, it was generated by users out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Mid your review.
Speaker 2:But it's effectively like they created a folder that people can view in a feed. Yeah. And it's cool videos. But then when you go try to make a video, the output is not at all on par with what you're seeing in the feed.
Speaker 1:Prompting mid journey is hard. Like, getting good results out of AI image generators is hard.
Speaker 2:You have to But take mid ideas. Yeah. For sure.
Speaker 1:Understand what keywords work, the s raps in mid journey. And then the animation step is really hard too because oftentimes, you're not really like, you you can kinda describe a scene, and then you need to think about, like, okay, what what do I actually need to tell it? Do I need to tell it that the that the background that there there should be actors in the background that
Speaker 2:are Like Mid journey's magic, but it has a steep learning curve.
Speaker 1:It does sort of have a
Speaker 2:Meta AI, they're making it they're they're they're selling this They're selling you slop dreams. Okay. And then they let you create assets but they don't they're not and that that's just a terrible it's like it's like running a an advertising campaign of like, hey, you know, they're they're advertising what what would appear to be the capabilities of Meta AI because it's in the Meta AI app. Yes. But that when you as a user go to create stuff, it's just not good.
Speaker 2:Like you were just trying to generate a TBPN intro. Yeah. And the letters weren't like like you put TBPN in a blender, they were inverted. It just didn't make any sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And character consistency Yeah. And fonts and all these things are hard to generate. But it just didn't feel like the product was if you were trying to create an organic moment where people were like, these videos are cool. Now I can create cool videos Yeah. Myself.
Speaker 2:And then people are gonna have this a bunch of people are gonna have the experience. So Yeah. Again, the the two the main critiques are like product level just not great Mhmm. Yet. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:It will get better. Yeah. And then from a marketing standpoint, like total cell phone Mhmm. To launch this into the to the audience that is going to have the most adverse reaction of anybody. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Because we're sick of seeing Elon, you know, share these videos
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Of, like, random, you know, Ani stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It does feel like it's very much white labeled mid journey. Like, even when you go to create, you type a prompt and it gives you four images, which is exactly what happens on mid journey. You get four and you get to pick. And then you have to animate it, and you're animating it from a single frame.
Speaker 1:That's not the workflow for v o three in Gemini. In Gemini, you go in and you describe a video with a whole bunch of different steps, and the results that I was getting from from v o three were so far and above this. Midjourney has a cool aesthetic, and it it has kind of a cool a cool, like it's like an animated painting almost. I don't know. It it's like it's a different thing than v o three.
Speaker 1:Like, the camera was moving around as it tracks the car that breaks through the Hollywood Sign, and then the
Speaker 2:It spins
Speaker 1:Remember the champagne bottles bursting out? We were like, it bit that in there. And I think what's happening in V 03 is that when you go to it with a prompt, it has kind of has, a reasoning step where it hydrates out what you're saying and gives it way more context and transforms it. A lot of times when I'm writing v o three prompts, I'll actually go to Chatuchipi Tea and describe and talk for a long time and say, write a big, long v o three prompt that actually organizes all of this into what's happening in the background. What's the lighting like?
Speaker 1:What time of day is it? Where are we? Like, what's the setting? What's the camera? What's the focal length?
Speaker 1:Like, all of these things are things that you need to put in midjourney to get good results, and and it's it's hard to get people up to speed on that. I do wonder about the social component here. One of the secrets to midjourney's success has been the fact that David Holes was talking on actually, to Ben Thompson. And he was saying that oh, wait. No, it wasn't David Holes.
Speaker 1:It was I think it was Nat Friedman, who's now at MSL, was talking about why Midjourney was successful and how Midjourney works. And Midjourney famously did not have a website, did not have an app. They just had a Discord server. And in the Discord server, people would go and prompt.
Speaker 2:And They'd get a good result.
Speaker 1:Yes. But the key The key was the sharing because They'd remix it. When you give someone just a blank prompt box, they just type dog. I wanna see a dog. And then you get one one generic image of a dog, and it looks like a stock photo.
Speaker 1:And what you really want is a photo of three puppies in the snow in Christmas shot on a Kodak phone or the Kodak camera with this camera move. You do you want the directorial style? You want something that's a different vibe? There's so many different pieces and tools that you would use to put together something that actually looks great. And the mid journey chat and the Discord allowed people to see, oh, wait.
Speaker 1:This person's prompting in this way, and they're getting this result. I should prompt like that. And they all built off of each other. And I think that's something that can actually happen in an app like Vibes. I wouldn't be surprised.
Speaker 1:You can already see it with the prompt is described there, and then you can click remix, and you can use that as a jumping off point. So just in terms of like the user experience of creating little pockets of of creativity and solving that problem of like how do you get a good result, how do you get a good prompt, it doesn't seem that hard. I don't know. I I feel like I'm not that bearish on this product. Like, know people are are rejecting it, but it feels like this is a useful step in terms of, like, they have a mid journey partnership.
Speaker 1:They're basically white labeling mid journey into this app. A lot of they're they're testing, gathering
Speaker 2:Yeah. Means data. To
Speaker 1:And then they're gonna put this in Instagram.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a proving ground.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And they but they do need to they do need to
Speaker 2:split But it those felt it felt like a it felt like an alpha product, not a beta product.
Speaker 1:Yeah. There's something there's something there. I don't know. Ben Thompson was wildly positive on this. He was the only one.
Speaker 1:He did an emergency podcast this morning or maybe last night. And he said that he had an interesting take that said that basically this technology, this AI feed, it solves a few problems. First, he liked the idea that we've all been suffering with this, like, low grade annoyance of is that real or is that AI? And I've we've noticed this in the show. We used to be able to clock it immediately.
Speaker 1:Like, it used to be so easy to spot six fingers. Oh, that's obviously AI generated. But recently, there's been a few things where we've had to look at The community
Speaker 2:monks in the Apple store.
Speaker 1:The monks in the Apple store. And then once you dig in, you're like, oh, yeah. That doesn't make any sense. Like, why would Apple have, like, the iPhone rendered wrong? Like, that doesn't make any sense.
Speaker 1:They're gonna show the full iPhone. And and I sort of fell for this one of, like, this robotic horse that looked really cool. I wanted to believe the robotic horse was real. And I think I think there is a company that actually does make a robotic horse that is real, but this happened to be a AI video of that product. And so it was like, it could exist, but not with this exact motion.
Speaker 1:And so, like, people are falling for this stuff, and they're sort of running with this low grade stress. And what Ben Thompson was saying was like, it's nice that when you open the Meta AI app, you know that everything is AI generated. Like, you're not running that question of, like, is this real or is this fake? You're just like, I'm in fake world. I'm in cartoon world.
Speaker 1:I'm in AI art world. And so that's actually a benefit, especially if you can kind of, like, segment these two things out. That's kind of nice. And then the second thing he said, which I will tell you in a second, but first, I'm gonna tell you about graphite. Dev code review for the age of AI.
Speaker 1:Graphite helps teams on GitHub ship higher quality software faster. You can get started for free. The second thing he said was that this feels like an important step on the path to virtual reality and a metaverse. This idea of, like, when you look at these mid journey worlds, some of them look cool, some of them look like they might be fun to go explore, walk around in. And if you can go from an image to a video, you can go from an image to a video to To a world.
Speaker 1:To a world. And and and we've seen that with those with the I keep blanking on the name. It's Google's generative world product. It begins with a G. It's not Gemini, which is their app.
Speaker 1:It's not Gemma, which is their open source LLM. It's
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think this the Meta AI vibes product
Speaker 1:It's Genie three. Genie three. Sorry. Genie three. You can go and and you can go and, like, walk around and paint the wall and stuff.
Speaker 1:And you could imagine generate a mid journey world of this cool retro sci fi whatever you want. You know the aesthetic's gonna be cool. And then you can step into it and actually walk around, like Yeah. With a game control.
Speaker 2:So no. Or in VR. So so so I start to get bullish on this product in the context of the Quest headset Yep. When somebody's you know, it sounds really dark and dystopian, of course. Right?
Speaker 2:Yep. But if somebody's in wearing their VR headset and they're able to scroll and just be in these worlds that are fantastical and Yeah. Feel like, you know, like you're hallucinating. I think that I think people will be more excited to use that. It'll be quite a bit more interesting than just scrolling on your phone and seeing you know, right right now, I don't think that the meta AI vibes feed will capture people anywhere close to as much as, you know, scrolling regular Instagram reels Yep.
Speaker 2:Scrolling YouTube shorts, TikTok, whatever.
Speaker 1:But a good take that was just like, I can watch a cat take off like a rocket. But once I've seen that and I've seen the cat also jump off a cliff and also dance around in the snow, like, I've kinda seen it all. And I wanna go back to, like, a comedian telling a funny joke that's new or someone giving me news or someone giving me their opinion or doing something in
Speaker 2:the world. Like niche topics I already care about.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Yeah. And so, like, the just just
Speaker 2:random randomness is not Yeah. That entertaining for that long.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Right? I mean, computer generated art has existed for a long time. And people used to, you know, follow Beeple on Instagram and see something that he made in CG and in Cinema four d and be like, no.
Speaker 2:People still
Speaker 1:do. People still do. He posts a new one every day.
Speaker 2:But what he does is it looks absolutely wild, but it's, like, culturally relevant
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:At the moment.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And so So you've seen a lot of his opinions. And it's very provocative.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I agree.
Speaker 2:I agree. And so just seeing, you know, as I I I love the monkey on the jet ski. Yeah. I love monkeys. I love jet skis.
Speaker 2:You put those two things together. That's awesome.
Speaker 1:It's awesome.
Speaker 2:You make him do a, you know, spin around three sixty. Amazing. Yep. Am I going to use the monkey? You know, if I use this app a lot,
Speaker 1:am I Do I want do I want 10
Speaker 2:of them to 20 of those? Yeah. 20 a day. Right?
Speaker 1:Probably not right now. It's gonna increase and as it gets better. But there are a bunch of different instantiations of that, where it's like if all of a sudden you generate the monkey on the jet ski, and then you can play the game, and then I play then the game scroll with another time,
Speaker 2:and there's an ad, and the monkey on the jet ski is Buying more jet skis with the ramp card, and that's an and that's a promoted post. Yeah. You know? You can see
Speaker 1:how ads post. If you can go follow me on the Meta AI app, my first post is an ad for ramp.com. I went and generated. And it's honestly it's free real estate right now. No one's using this app yet.
Speaker 1:Go there. Promote your business. Gold Rock AI. Know you're gonna do something. It's it's in your name.
Speaker 1:You, you promote yourself in the chat here on TBPN. You should promote yourself in the Meta AI app. Get some
Speaker 2:free Video game giant Electronic Arts is nearing a roughly $50,000,000,000 deal to go private. Woah. Silver Lake is cooking. Okay. They
Speaker 1:wonder if they're gonna change the business model because EA for a long time has has sold box software effectively, $60 for a game, dollars 70 for a game. And if they want to go full subscription, full maybe everything's free to play. Like, maybe that transition would be hard on earnings quarterly. And so they need to they need to go private. I don't know.
Speaker 1:It'd be interesting to see see where
Speaker 2:it goes. This would be the largest leveraged buyout of all time.
Speaker 1:Let's hear it for leveraged buyout. Should we ring the Gong
Speaker 2:for that? Let's do it. Let's do it.
Speaker 1:It hasn't it hasn't closed, but I'm excited. I just wanna
Speaker 2:Preemptive hit.
Speaker 1:Let's warm it up for everyone since we have time today.
Speaker 2:There we go. Oh. There we go.
Speaker 1:So there there are some projections, some leaks, some predictions about what Meta's next headset will look like. We obviously saw the AR concepts from or products. They're out. From everything from the Meta Ray Bans to the Ray Bans display, which have the augmented reality display in one side of the headset or the the glasses. And then and then and then the Orion, which is a full augmented reality pair of glasses.
Speaker 1:I don't even you can't even call it a headset because they're just glasses. Yeah. But they are still working on VR. And I think when we talk to James Cameron, this is why he's genuinely so excited is because he's tried the next product. And I think that he would not be that excited about the Quest three.
Speaker 1:But I was calling it Quest four. I was assuming that Quest four would be the breakthrough where they take the battery out of the out of the headset. They put it in your pocket. They use the the the display from the Apple Vision Pro or even a better display. But it seems like they're gonna do something in between Quest four and something else.
Speaker 1:And so this is from Tom's guide. They said new meta prototype headsets combine goggle like design with ultra wide VR, and it could be a sneak peek at the at the Meta Quest four. I'll drop it in the chat here. Timeline. There we go.
Speaker 1:So this is this is from Tom's guide, and you can see these images of of, like, somewhat smaller display. I don't know exactly how it is, but they're they're going for a 180 degree field of view and aiming for something that's potentially much lighter, I've been hearing. This looks very 80 mill 80 megapixel cameras, 60 frames a second, high curvature reflective polarizers, and custom optical design. And so this is still like in beta, but it feels like they could be doing something that's maybe a little bit more like what big screen VR is doing, which is a very very small light headset under two I hundred and would love to have him back on. I was just thinking that because Nick.
Speaker 1:There's something there. Yeah. Reach out.
Speaker 2:Big screen.
Speaker 1:Big screen VR. He's been on the show before. We gotta get an update from him.
Speaker 2:Joe Wiesenthal has an absolute banger. The emergence of quote unquote slop was foretold as soon as we started consuming content via the feed.
Speaker 1:I didn't see this. I put this this is how I kicked off the newsletter today. Go to tbpn.com. Drop your email. It says, why do they call them social media feeds?
Speaker 1:Are they feeding us slop at a trough or seating us at a Michelin Star restaurant? Restaurant? It's both and always has been. You can use social media to follow the most insane craftsmen who spend years researching, writing, producing, and distributing content. Or you can slop it up with some viral videos of scantily clad hot people in street fights, sometimes both in the same video.
Speaker 1:The distribution of between craft and slop has been growing for decades, maybe forever, and is continuing to grow with the development of AI content. And I
Speaker 2:This this post got 10,000 likes from Twenty. Point zero zero five seconds. Yeah. We at Meta are delighted to announce we've created the infinite slot machine that destroys children from the hit book, Don't Create the Infinite Slot Machine That Destroys Children.
Speaker 1:This is such a good copy pasta. I forget what original The Torment is the original one. It's like everyone in tech is like, we've created the torment nexus from the famous book. Don't create the torment nexus. I just think torment nexus is hilarious.
Speaker 1:We will see if this destroys children. I don't know how much it will destroy children. I don't know how much it'll destroy everyone. There's an interesting dynamic. Most parents are aware of technology and and that it needs to be measured and released in in,
Speaker 2:you know If if any parents are unaware of technology, technology, we we would would love love to to interview interview you. You.
Speaker 1:For sure. But but the iPad kids meme is a thing. Are you gonna give your kids an iPad anytime soon?
Speaker 2:Only on flights.
Speaker 1:Okay. Yeah. Just as a replacement, like watch a movie, basically?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's basically it's basically like, I know this is bad for my child, but
Speaker 1:So limited.
Speaker 2:I don't wanna ruin, you know Yep. Four hours with, you know Yep. Strangers.
Speaker 1:So, I mean, there was a time when, like, I actually grew up. My parents were arts art majors, studied fine art and film. And they insisted that I don't watch TV. Yeah. Like, do not watch television.
Speaker 2:I was only allowed to watch television in Spanish.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I oh, interesting.
Speaker 2:Like, early on. That's So it was like, yeah, if you wanna watch Yeah. Yeah. You're learning.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's cool. Ready to learn Spanish. Yeah. I love it.
Speaker 2:You you you clearly
Speaker 1:clearly worked perfectly. But but I had to watch a lot of the AFI 100, the top, the best films. I've seen Lawrence of Arabia, like, 25 times because of that because that was one of the approved movies that I could watch. And and I think parents know that, you know, you need to let the dust settle on the new technology before you expose the kids to it. And so the phones are getting restricted.
Speaker 1:There's screen time limits for most kids. There's this idea of, like, let the let them cook. Let them simmer. Let their brains develop. Keep them focused on books and writing and reading.
Speaker 1:And then, yes, movies, but maybe a Pixar movie once a month. You know? The the I think it was Andrew Sorkin that was interviewing Peter Thiel and said kinda put the screws to him. He was like, you're on the board of Meta. How much screen time do you give your kids?
Speaker 1:And he was like, ninety minutes a week. And that feels like a very reasonable place to be where you're not gonna become zombie.
Speaker 2:Not all screen time is created equally.
Speaker 1:100%.
Speaker 2:You have a an old school animated show. Yes. And Totally. It's hand drawn and it's sort of
Speaker 1:Even just the moral lessons in one show can be wildly different than another. Like, there can be shows that have really they grapple with really complex social issues or or instill, you know, the the they're retelling like, if you're if you're watching something that's like essentially a a transposition of a Romeo and Juliet story or a a biblical story or something that teaches you to turn the other cheek or the golden Right? The hero's journey. Like, these things are going I I feel like, you know, like, letting a kid watch the original Star Wars is not gonna make them like a worse person. It's going to be like, yeah, be heroic.
Speaker 1:Save the princess. Like, be like like, you know, fight the bad guys. Right? Like, those are sort of good, and you need to unpack it. You need to follow the story lines from the beginning to the end and stuff.
Speaker 1:It's not just something that you can just mindlessly turn on. Like, it builds a whole world, and it helps you imagine things and explores the ideas of space travel and science fiction. Like, these are not that bad for you, I think, at least in limited doses. And I think this will be the same for this AI slop. I think that most parents will say, you're not getting that much out of this, so it should be limited.
Speaker 1:This is very much candy. Then there are The only
Speaker 2:thing I would say is I don't think most parents are engaged enough to Yes. Actively control screen time.
Speaker 1:Yes. And so there will be a barbell where certain parents will police it and see very good outcomes for their children. And other parents won't, and they will see bad outcomes from their from their children. And then there will also be dynamics within these groups where if you look around and you see that your peer group is all zombies because they've all been spending every waking moment glued to AI slop, and they can't tell you anything because they're just watching, like, nonsense. Well, then there's incredible alpha for going to the library and reading a book.
Speaker 1:And so someone will figure that out and realize, wait. If everyone else is completely noncompetitive and I'm the only one that's read this book, I will have the ability to make a ton of money and get a huge house and live a wonderful life. And so I should lock in, and I should turn that stuff off, resist that, and and become a more interesting dynamic and creative and, you know, independent thinker. And so there will be this natural game theoretic outcome where if everyone's falling for one thing, I mean, it's the land of the lotus eaters. If everyone's doing drugs all day and you're the one that's not on drugs, you're gonna be pretty powerful in that society.
Speaker 1:Right? Like, if everyone's drunk all day and you're the only sober person, well, you're probably gonna be, you know, the president or Yeah. You know, the the the ruler of the world potentially.
Speaker 2:I have no idea if this stat is fully accurate. Yeah. But one study showed that the average American five year old watches two to three hours of TV Oh. A day. That's a lot.
Speaker 2:That's a lot. That's really dark.
Speaker 1:Well, a better way to spend your time, get your kids on Julius. Give them some analysis. Give them some data. It's the AI data analyst that works for you. You turn him loose in this thing.
Speaker 1:How did
Speaker 2:you spend your allowance last week? You don't know? Julius? Oh, yeah. Run the numbers.
Speaker 1:Run the numbers.
Speaker 2:Run the numbers.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Your lemonade stand actually performing, or is growth decelerating? If
Speaker 2:we add if we really add in COGS
Speaker 1:Yeah. I know you barely breaking even. I know you doubled lemonade stand revenue last quarter, but the previous quarter, So, you were tripling yeah, you're decelerating. We gotta have a talk. Don't you know the triple triple double double double is doesn't count anymore?
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's 10 x.
Speaker 1:It's 10 x. Did you 10 x your lemonade stand? Put the numbers in Julius.
Speaker 2:Well, we should switch gears and talk about GPT ChatGPT Pulse.
Speaker 1:Yes. So this was so interesting that it launched the same day because I view it as the opposite product. Like, it is the Meta AI product's free. It's very generic. Every single person gets the exact same.
Speaker 1:It's unpersonalized right now. Everyone got the same feed at the start. It's purely video. There's no meat and potatoes. You're not learning things.
Speaker 1:And then Pulse was like, let's go through all of your chatty pity history, learn what you're the biggest nerd about, and then and then surface really rich deep content. At least that's what I got. And it's only for people that are paying $200 a month, so it's, like, effectively for rich people. And my results were wild. Like, with the Meta AI, I got the jet ski monkey fun.
Speaker 1:I got the cat rocket. I got all this the silly videos. I got
Speaker 2:The timing is the timing is really
Speaker 1:It's crazy.
Speaker 2:Crazy. So
Speaker 1:Which way? Which way, Western Maine?
Speaker 2:It's like 12:26 Pacific yesterday Yeah. Alexander Wang launched Vibes. Mhmm. December, his former roommate, Sam Altman, launched Pulse. Wow.
Speaker 2:You wonder if it was by chance.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Probably just random. Tuck it up to random chance, probably.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Your p random is
Speaker 1:Extremely high. No no
Speaker 2:history
Speaker 1:They
Speaker 2:never no no history of
Speaker 1:No history between these big companies trying to preempt each other and launch Win
Speaker 2:the the culture war.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And launch products right at the same time. Take air out of the room for the other one. But I mean, my Pulse experience was wild. So
Speaker 2:OpenAI recruiters sending immediately Hey.
Speaker 1:You want to come back?
Speaker 2:Saying, like, which way? Western researcher.
Speaker 1:Seriously. So my Pulse gave me five stories or something. I got completely nerd sniped. First one was a breakdown of Mag seven CapEx. You know how to get me going.
Speaker 1:There's nothing I love more than diving into Mag seven CapEx. Then a deep dive on NVIDIA's Blackwell rollout cadence, which is exactly what I wanna know about, an explanation of how memory bottlenecks computing performance, going all the way back to the Apollo missions to now with HBM, what's going on in the AI revolution, then a comparison of various enterprise level bonded cellular systems that can be used to live stream content on the go. We've been talking about, taking cameras out of the studio and live streaming and streaming back. Well, you can't always just do that over a single five g, connection, over a Wi Fi hotspot. And so there's actually an enterprise level device that will connect you to Verizon and AT and T and Sprint and bond all of those together so you have a very stable connection.
Speaker 1:And this one fits in a backpack. And so I was researching that. It gave me a bunch of recommendations. And, of course, they're gonna be able to monetize that because when I finally make my decision on which bonded cellular system we're buying, they're gonna take a cut of it. They're gonna buy it for us.
Speaker 1:And so I was, like, extremely pleased with my Pulse experience even though it was AI slop. It was AI generated. It was AI, you know, just it was all synthetic. It wasn't it there was no human in the loop whatsoever, but it was highly curated, highly personalized, and it felt like it I came away from that feeling like I had leveled myself up and I had learned something and become a better person, more thoughtful, more knowledgeable. And I came away from the Meta AI thing not even really remembering specifics of what I saw, just that I saw a lot of AI stuff.
Speaker 1:And and and I came away from it being like, oh, that was kinda cool. I I I like mid journey stuff. It's interesting. It it looks good. But it didn't it didn't stay with me, and it didn't really
Speaker 2:I'll tell you I'll tell you a couple of
Speaker 1:my thought provoking. Yeah. What you got?
Speaker 2:So I got one on vendor financing loops across industries. So Oh, yeah. Of course. Background here Yeah. What you're seeing.
Speaker 2:Obviously,
Speaker 1:we've OpenAI and NVIDIA.
Speaker 2:And semis Yep. And, you know, ChatGPT with NVIDIA. They're it down other other other types, you know, similar structures in automotive Mhmm. Aerospace, other industries, kinda breaking it down. It's basically like a deep research report.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Then they have OpenAI Core Weave deal expands by 6 and a half billion. This is interesting to me because they are effectively creating a net new a net new news article.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It's
Speaker 2:like curated based on what it knows about Yeah. How the the level of depth I wanna engage with the story. So it's actually pulling from 10 or so different sources.
Speaker 1:I think it's it's not even researchers just firing off an o three pro query or, like, a GPT five pro query.
Speaker 2:But it's formatting it.
Speaker 1:It's doing it, like, five
Speaker 2:to It's formatting it to feel like an article.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. No. It's very accessible. I I actually don't really love the way they present the articles with the images and the Yeah.
Speaker 1:Headlines. Like, I don't actually they could markets. Do
Speaker 2:And this one includes some slop. Okay. It's a picture of the South Park characters. And
Speaker 1:Is it AI generated?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting. Okay. So you're generating
Speaker 2:It just says predict market. So Okay. That's not Kind of a miss. Good. Kind of a miss.
Speaker 2:And then it says, here's here's a key update on flight caps and staffing since you've been weighing NYC travel logistics. And it's a summary of
Speaker 1:how I know that once.
Speaker 2:Summary of how the FAA
Speaker 1:I wanna go way deeper on that. Like
Speaker 2:The the the article it generated for me is FAA extends Newark flight caps to 20 You
Speaker 1:were looking for a gas station near you, so here's the full history of gas stations. Like, I don't know if I want that, actually.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So a little bit
Speaker 1:of a misdemeanor.
Speaker 2:But overall, it's cool. Yeah. And what they've done is they've made it so that when you land in ChatGPT, you can click into this feed.
Speaker 1:Which is the best real estate because you're going to open ChatGPT regularly anyway, and you're normally presented with just a big blank screen, which is like the worst UX move ever. Right? You have it's free real estate. Put something there. They're gonna be able to put ads in here.
Speaker 1:It's gonna be a hugely monetizable surface and, I think, a great user experience. I think people are gonna be really happy with it. And I think it's gonna be personalized super intelligence. It's gonna be very it's already very personalized. Like Yeah.
Speaker 1:I guarantee most people that open the ChatGPT app and and hit Pulse will not see the same articles
Speaker 2:And the reason this is potentially great as an ad unit Yeah. Is that it's not putting it in a specific prompt. It's putting it in between prompts. So that means they can personalize the ad for you based on your interests
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:And what it knows about you. Totally. But it's not doing it in a way that is gonna be especially conflicted Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:As it would be in a in a in a
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Like, I'm asking for the best backpack, I want unbiased results. But if you just surface to me, hey, here are some new backpacks and there's a sponsored post in there, like, that seems very reasonable. I do think that they they'll probably need to lean into audio more.
Speaker 1:There was no way to just click a button and have it play an audio of all the articles. And even if I see an article, I I can thumbs up it, thumbs down it. I can save it. I can share it, but I can't just listen to it. So I actually have to click in and then scroll to the bottom.
Speaker 1:And then once I scroll to the bottom, then I can click the audio button. So clearly, some UX that they will be improving. There's some really obvious updates. But I mean, such a great product and surface area to start building on. I'm I'm extremely bullish on on Pulse for OpenAI.
Speaker 1:It seemed really great. And the response was not this is this is slop. This is going to one shot people. This is gonna be some, like, you know, dystopian thing. I think the reviews generally were pretty positive.
Speaker 2:This is a well timed launch
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And good marketing.
Speaker 1:Well, if you wanna build something like this, you wanna store a bunch of data fine tune something, get on Turbo Puffer, search every byte, serverless vector and full full text search built from first principles and object storage, fast, 10 x cheaper, and extremely scalable. So Daniel Tenriro says, tech luminaries be like today. We're proud to announce the most brain dead AI version of the most joyless anti human product imaginable.
Speaker 2:I think that was in a response not to Pulse.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Not to Pulse. That just like, yeah. I mean, Gabriel says Predator drone aimed at the minds of men and women aged 55 to 65. There's a lot of that.
Speaker 2:Antonio Garcia Martinez says AI will be the biggest vehicle for ads in human history.
Speaker 1:I think so. Think that they're eating off
Speaker 2:from a
Speaker 1:But He loves ads. We love ads. Let's give you another ad. ProFound, get your brand mentioned in ChatGPT. Reach millions of consumers who are using AI to discover new products and brands.
Speaker 1:Get a demo at Profound. Actually, super relevant. I mean, if you wanna show up in these in the Pulse updates, like, knowing where your brand sits and all the AI apps and LLMs makes a ton of sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's a whole new service area.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, clearly a growing growing growing space. So good to do with your brand.
Speaker 2:Dylan Patel with a white pill. Yeah. Whether you are religious or not, remember to start your day by being grateful and thankful for the opportunity to be in the eye of the storm of the biggest economic boom in human history. Let's etch our initials into the silicon of the information age.
Speaker 1:Let's f up the world gang. I like it. It is You're
Speaker 2:fired up.
Speaker 1:It is it is a wild time, and there's opportunity all over the place. Even even, you know, we're seeing, like, small developers build little things that just, like, you know, the barnacle economy is what we call it. It was very disparaging because we were looking at it from a venture capital lens. But truly, there are some there are some folks who are who are, you know, sort of barnacles on the like, just drafting off of the what's happening in the huge $100,000,000,000 market. It's like, imagine if you're a real estate agent, and you're just like, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm I'm I'm
Speaker 2:It's a good time to be a agent.
Speaker 1:I'm a real estate agent. And I was on that. I was on I was in Abilene, Texas. And I just made Or ton of
Speaker 2:you helped a few OpenAI employees buy homes Oh,
Speaker 1:that too.
Speaker 2:Years ago. Now you're helping 100 of them buy Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's so many different ways. Daniel Morell Danielle Morell says, today, Chattypetty created the real estate they need for ads, which we agree with.
Speaker 1:Simon Smith has a little review of Chattypetty Pulse. First impression, it's gonna be insanely useful. It's like a news feed tailored to recent conversations. It reminded me of Perplexity Discover feature, only way more personal. I did find that when I used Perplexity Discover, it was not as personalized.
Speaker 1:But again, I wasn't using Perplexity as daily. I've been a daily active user of ChatGPT, probably firing off like five or six queries a day for a year or two, three now. So they have a lot to work with there. And he says, you don't just get content on broad topics like artificial intelligence. You get content on very specific things you've been discussing with ChatGPT.
Speaker 1:For example, I was chatting with it the other day about AIs competing with each other, so it presented me some content on that. I even it even finds content for things you've mentioned in passing but are genuinely genuinely interested in. I've noticed I've been asking about Toronto's crashing condo market, for example, so it found me an article on that. I don't know if it even found you an article. It created an article.
Speaker 1:It found multiple sources and then created the article on top of it. The onboarding experience is excellent. You get stuff right away, and then you're scrolling. It often it offers to do other stuff like refine the feed, give you email notifications, or access your calendar and email. This feels like the most personalized news feed you can imagine.
Speaker 1:It also makes me wanna dump even more information in context and app connections into ChatGPT so it can be a better Yeah.
Speaker 2:Right now, it's a pulse on on the world and your interest generally.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But it could become a pulse for your life. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Totally. And yeah. I mean Yeah.
Speaker 2:We were having fun with did have your calendar connected. It could it could figure out, hey, you're meeting with this person later. Here's a few things they've been up to recently.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. There was someone who was laughing about it because they they went in. It was like immediately recommending, like, go check out Gemini and go check out go check out Grok. But that's good.
Speaker 1:Like, it should be it should be, you know, they they shouldn't be putting their thumb on the scale. It should just be based on if you were asking Chad GPT about Gemini, it should recommend you Gemini because there should be a wall between the editorial and the advertising. Like there is here at TBPN. We talk about companies, and then we run ads for companies like Fall, generative media platform for developers, the world's best generative image, video, and audio models all in one place, developing fine tune models with serverless GPUs and on demand clusters. If you wanna do something interesting and elevate the conversation around video, image, and audio, head over to So little bit more context.
Speaker 1:I mean, people are having fun with this. Will DePuse says, do not build Infinite Jest. Do not build the Infinite AI's TikTok slot machine. Do not build the pea zombie AI boy girlfriend. Do not build the child eating short form video black hole.
Speaker 1:Do not build the human feedback optimized diffusion transformer porn generator. Save yourselves. And Will just says reminder because it's exactly what they did. Matt Leglacias says, I've been telling people that one of my big concerns about the country is that we don't people don't have enough access to enough short form video content. And now they have even more.
Speaker 1:There's a little bit more context on what might be happening behind the scenes from Andrew Curran. He says Alex Wang explained in the thread that this partnership is temporary, that Vibes will eventually use Meta's in house models that they are currently training, which will probably be trained on Reels data and on Instagram data and on video from Facebook and from Instagram,
Speaker 2:which course the potential to be very good?
Speaker 1:I I think so too. Because when you look at what v o three is able to do with YouTube data, you have to imagine that Facebook has basically the same amount of data. Like it's not everything, but the cross posting is crazy. And there are so many content creators just by default cross post to Facebook because it's free views, right? And so the library of Facebook and Instagram content has to be massive.
Speaker 1:But I think that they need to build a massive data center. They need that one gigawatt cluster or something. They need some crazy, crazy thing. And so they're not just able to hit run and train on the entire metadata set, but they have immense data. So any argument that you're making for Google will be able to use YouTube as this crazy differentiator, you have to imagine that Meta is in same camp and has roughly the same amount of data.
Speaker 1:I think YouTube is several orders of magnitude bigger. I think they're in the same band. But Alex Wang said, For this early version, partnered with Midjourney and Black Forest Labs while we continue developing our own models behind the scenes. This is the same deal that Black Forest made with Elon here on X. All the images here are generated by Grok.
Speaker 1:We're actually by FluxONE until XAI's in house model now named Imagine finished its training. XAI also has access to a lot of data from videos that have been shared on X, probably going to be really good at generating startup launch videos, maybe less so on super cinematic multi hour videos Yeah. If there's less of that on X. But I mean, I've cross posted a ton of YouTube videos onto X over the years.
Speaker 2:Well, of infinite short form, should we talk about the TikTok deal? Sure. There's good there's a good I mean, we covered it briefly
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yesterday. But Bloomberg covered it today. Mhmm. They said, price TikTok business valued like boring blue chip in US deal. It's effect it's it's effectively trading hands at around one x revenue.
Speaker 2:Wow. Yeah. So they're saying the $14,000,000,000 price tag proposed for TikTok's US business values it like a mature low growth company. The valuation is well below previous projections and may be seen as quote, unquote daylight robbery by ByteDance and its existing investors. The deal would spin out.
Speaker 2:And again, the other thing here is like ByteDance and the existing investors are retaining a position and it's certainly a lot better than a zero which they could have been heading towards. But the deal would spin out TikTok US and do a new joint venture with ByteDance's stake reduced to less than 20 to satisfy US national security concerns. Anyways, the rough the the $14,000,000,000 price tag proposed for TikTok's US business values it like a stuffy old energy or food company than a leading global social media company. The rough estimate cited by JD Vance on Thursday is well below previous projections that scaled closer to 40,000,000,000. 40,000,000,000 would have been still below what Elon paid for Twitter.
Speaker 2:Vance's comments came as President Donald Trump pushed forward a plan for American investors to buy The US operation from Chinese internet firm ByteDance. Vance conceded that the purchasers will ultimately determine the amount paid while expected buyers including Oracle and Silver Lake would likely welcome a low ball valuation. ByteDance and its existing investors may find it amusing, if not insulting. The suggested value looks like daylight robbery, said Vai Cernling, senior equity advisor for Asia Technology at Union Banker Privy. Anyways, my question here is, is it possible that their their user metrics are just massively have always been massively inflated?
Speaker 2:Right?
Speaker 1:In The US?
Speaker 2:That was always the one of the reasons that creators started using the app Yeah. And and would continue to use it is they would post and they would get 200,000 views on one of their first, like, 10 videos. Right? Yeah. Which is just like the the dope the dopamine feedback from that is just insane.
Speaker 1:Yeah. There's a long lineage of when you wanna bootstrap a social network, you basically put a bunch of bots on there. Yeah. And so you could be inflating the views. I noticed I tested TikTok with like a brand new account in every video.
Speaker 1:It felt like it would get auditioned basically, just randomly shuffled into you know, you'd get like 500 to a thousand views. Yep. And then you'd and then you'd, you know, move on from that. And then if it did well, it would go viral. I think that that actually does make sense to send videos out.
Speaker 1:YouTube barely does that when you are on a fresh account. Although, when I scroll my YouTube feed, I do see more and more videos surfacing that are like 23 views. I'm like I'm like, really? I'm like the twenty fourth person to like potentially click on this? And it's just testing like, hey, is there a chance
Speaker 2:Is there
Speaker 1:a this is a great video? If if a lot of people click on it, a lot of people watch it, they enjoy it, then like maybe this should go viral and they have to test that on a lot of people. So I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of, you know, some sort of inflation, some sort of, you know, like fakeness. I think it'd probably be more about the just the growth rate. Like, has like, Stories came to Instagram, Snapchat stopped growing, basically.
Speaker 1:And when Reels came to Instagram, it's entirely possible.
Speaker 2:I don't
Speaker 1:I haven't seen the growth data, but it's entirely possible that TikTok kind of stopped growing.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so if you have a a if if The US business was not growing quickly
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Is losing money
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And potentially a lot of the metrics have been inflated forever Yep. It's very possible that it's certainly, it's hard to, when you have these AI valuations, put other businesses in context, right, perplexity at 20,000,000,000. Yep. This feels like a robbery. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But and I'm and I'm certain that Zach would have would have happily paid. How much do you think Zach would have paid for TikTok?
Speaker 1:$200,000,000,000 or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Something insane. Right? Like, to be able to. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And obviously, the regulators would not have Yeah. Allowed that but or at least would have
Speaker 1:So it it so basically, Oracle's gonna own it which means
Speaker 2:And Silver Lake.
Speaker 1:NVIDIA's the only big tech company, except for Broadcom, without a social network. We gotta make
Speaker 2:Or Broadcom never gets enough long.
Speaker 1:We gotta make CUDA Net work. CUDA Net Broadcom.
Speaker 2:$600,000,000,000 company and and barely ever in the conversation.
Speaker 1:It's rough. It's rough out there.
Speaker 2:They need a they need a new they need a new PR firm. Yeah. This is Or Haktan needs to go direct.
Speaker 1:Someone dug up an old Alex Wang tweet here. All of the new social apps suck. The last good one was Yik Yak. Maybe textphotovideo based social networks are saturated.
Speaker 2:From 2016.
Speaker 1:From 2016. That's a throwback. And now he's building a new one, a new new vertical feed. Anyway, Dylan Patel says, my favorite thing about the new college grads that I've hired is that they don't ask you how to do stuff. They just put it in ChatGPT and try even if wrong.
Speaker 1:So much better than new grads asking you how to do stuff without trying. Chat is breeding agency into kids. That's interesting. High agencies? I wonder I wonder how much he's selecting for that.
Speaker 1:But because, like, to go Yeah.
Speaker 2:Pick some analysis How much activity never happens because somebody doesn't know the right way to do something and isn't willing to fail at the start or isn't willing to just take a shot at it or Yeah. Isn't willing to ask ask somebody.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, I I I like the idea that that people are just feeling more confident about going and and trying stuff and and being creative. Anyway, linear. Linear is a purpose built tool for planning and building products. Meet the system for modern software development. Streamline issues, projects, product road maps.
Speaker 1:Sam McAllister, 10 k likes on this. Excited to share Slop, a new Slop trough for you all to enjoy. Are having a lot of fun with the Slop stuff. Someone had someone said, I met I never met a Slop I didn't like. Someone else said something funny to say.
Speaker 1:People were having fun with the slop puns. Had a good time. Packy was taking a really strong stance. He was saying, Guys, it's very important you resist vibes. Disable your parents' phones if they tell you they're using vibes.
Speaker 1:Make fun of your friends relentlessly if they are if they are caught using vibes
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Or until they stop using vibes. Fire employees caught watching vibes. We ordered we ordered Tyler to watch like, the entire Yeah.
Speaker 2:He's not here today, actually, because
Speaker 1:Oh, I wonder why.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Maybe He's he watching. We said watch, like, twelve to fourteen hours straight.
Speaker 1:And he's just locked in watching He's locked in.
Speaker 2:He's got his Quest on.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You does it do you think it works in Quest?
Speaker 1:No. I I I think it's only in the Meta AI app right now.
Speaker 2:But can
Speaker 1:you only a phone app. I don't
Speaker 2:think app and Quest?
Speaker 1:No. I don't think so. I I I think that the the app stores are completely separate. The Meta AI app is an iOS app. And if it runs on Quest, it's a different different app.
Speaker 1:And I don't think that there's like, you know, oh, run any phone app on Quest. Like, that's not a thing. You can mirror I think you can mirror your phone into Apple Vision Pro, but someone will figure it out. I I figured out how to mirror my my laptop into Apple Vision Pro. And there's actually a pretty easy way to if you're in Apple Vision Pro to to beam your screen into into VR.
Speaker 1:So Yeah. You could certainly do that. I mean, I guess you could run the iPhone app on your Mac and then mirror your Mac into Apple Vision Pro, and that would be a way to see it. But, yeah, mixed mixed responses. Doug over at Fabricated Knowledge says, legit, one of my favorite uses is a new digest tailored to my interests.
Speaker 1:So, yeah, this rules. Talking about ChatGPT Pulse, huge, huge, huge support for ChatGPT Pulse. He also went on to say something interesting. He says, meanwhile, this is def not an AGI company, but the world's largest consumer company, lol. Like, this is a good product for a big consumer company.
Speaker 1:This is another move in the consumer direction. Who knows if they're actually, you know, pulling the pulling the plug on on AGI. Some folks were saying that Brett Taylor doesn't seem very AGI pilled because he's building an application layer company. And if you're truly AGI pilled, you should just, you know, gall in on the on the foundation model companies, race to AGI. But you see this with Anthropic.
Speaker 1:They're partnering with other companies. They're investing in other companies. Anthropic investors They're
Speaker 2:doing billboard campaigns.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So is anyone really fully AGI pilled on the short term? Even Eliezer Yudakowsky is saying that, like, we're one to two transformer sized innovations away from superintelligence, which he thinks would be very bad. Well, the transformer was like a decade ago. So if these things only happen every couple decades, you could be looking at like twenty years, forty years to superintelligence.
Speaker 1:And you and LEAs are, like, opens with, like, I'm not putting a date on this. I'm just saying it's bad, and it's gonna happen at some point. And so that's what that's his take. But we
Speaker 2:should have Mark him Andreessen had a good post earlier. He had why this leading it's a screenshot of like a CNBC article. Why this leading AI CEO is warning the tech could cause mass unemployment.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then next to it is another screenshot from CNBC. Anthropic is trip is to triple international workforce and global AI push. Very
Speaker 1:funny. Well, Anthropic will have to pay their sales tax. They should do it on numeralhqnumeralhq.com. Sales tax on autopilot. Spend less than five minutes per month on sales tax compliance.
Speaker 1:The other reactions, I mean, there's a ton of reactions to both Pulse and and Vibes. Pulse and Vibes. That's the that's the the current thing. A lot of people are saying Anthony says it's interactions poke, but on the ChatGPT app, Nick Dobos says if this works, extrapolate out, it replaces social media as the go to mindless doom scroll, potentially worth trillions of dollars about ChatGPT polls, which is interesting because you could say that about vibes. Nathan Lambert says he's more excited to have finally learned codexes in the app.
Speaker 1:He's gonna master the art of vibe coding on the go. This content pull stuff will be seen as slop to teapot, but very likely popular popular overall. Interestingly, it wasn't really seen as tea as slop as teapot because Vibes came out, and that was like the the the sacrificial lamb to slop. Ryza Martin, who is running a competitor, a product that was similar to Pulse, had so many people sending me the Pulse launch. Thank you to everyone who checked in.
Speaker 1:And you're right. Lots of similarities to Hux down to the UX, the banners, the taglines, the entire concept. Building a new product is really hard. It requires so much out of you, but the something. So
Speaker 2:Yeah. I I pulled up talks in the they're they're focused on audio. Okay. So you can and it it this looks pretty cool. They they make live or they say live stations.
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:So you can tap in and immediately hear an update on your stock portfolio. Right?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But they do have functionality that just says, it's briefing you on your day. It's surfacing. But it's very audio driven.
Speaker 1:Well, maybe they'll integrate with public.com investing for those who take it seriously. They got multi asset investing, industry leading yields. They're trusted by millions, folks. Will Menidas says the central plot point of Infinite Jest is a film so engrossing that anyone who watches it loses all interest in anything else. They can't eat, sleep, or function.
Speaker 1:In the book, terrorists fight over it. In real life, Alex Wang got cut paid a couple billion to make it happen. He's having fun. Benjamin says flipping my companies I've worked for that have employed Emmett Shear as CEO and launched feed products called Pulse Counter from one to two. What is he talking about?
Speaker 1:What was the other company? Did did Twitch launch Pulse? Where else has Emmett Shear been been CEO? Twitch Pulse. No?
Speaker 1:Oh, introducing Pulse, an always on way for streamers and viewers to connect. Connection between streamers and viewers are part of what makes Twitch unique. Exhibit a, Twitch chat. A big step forward towards strengthening those connections was when we released channel feeds, but that was only the beginning. Now we're launching a way to make it easier for streamers and viewers to engage with each other on Twitch, whether the stream is live or not, introducing Pulse, a place where streamers can post and engage with all of their followers in the greater Twitch community right from the Twitch front page.
Speaker 1:It's an always on way to share clips, stream highlights, schedules, photos, and more. So it's a feed on top of your on top of it's an aggregated feed. It's a news feed. It's a broader algo feed across the entire everyone you follow on Twitch. Interesting.
Speaker 1:So they began their rollout. When when did this launch? 2017. Eight years old. Okay.
Speaker 1:I haven't even heard about this product. I'm not a a a DAU of of Twitch, But thank you to everyone that's holding it down on Twitch chat. Thank you to Bobby Cosmic. He says Twitch chat is goated.
Speaker 2:Cree says, everyone doing the same launch videos to announce their start ups when all you really need is to have natural aura like this. And this is the Fairchild Semiconductor team.
Speaker 1:They look great.
Speaker 2:Dropping an image exactly like this and saying, introducing your company
Speaker 1:Here's the team.
Speaker 2:Here's what we do Yeah. Could go pretty viral.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, it's it's hard if it's like fully derivative. It could be done well if it's an I'm not sure. Yeah. But if it's just like here's our team and the team looks interesting.
Speaker 1:I mean, I I don't know if this photo did much for them at the time. I mean, they were making some No. Because they
Speaker 2:probably of the journal. Maybe. Maybe. It could have gone pretty hard.
Speaker 1:I wonder where this photo was originally published. But man, the the looks here are fantastic.
Speaker 2:I'm begging people to do something other than a cinematic launch video.
Speaker 1:Truly. Truly.
Speaker 2:We should talk about
Speaker 1:fin dot ai, the number one AI
Speaker 2:Exactly after that. Service. Beat me to it.
Speaker 1:Number one in performance benchmarks. Number one in competitive bake offs. Number one ranking on g two. We should talk about asteroid mining. AstroForge says astro mining is all they talk about.
Speaker 1:Because Adrian Dittmann said, we don't talk enough about asteroid mining. AstroForge has got you covered. They're working on asteroid mining, apparently. That's good. In other space news.
Speaker 2:We should before we dive into that, apparently, this just broke. The Social Network follow-up sets 2026 release date and official title called The Social Reckoning.
Speaker 1:Oh. They're not calling it the social network too.
Speaker 2:Aaron Sorkin's film stars Mickey Madison, Jeremy Allen White, Bill Byrne, Jeremy Strong as Mark Zuckerberg.
Speaker 1:Jeremy Strong as Mark Zuckerberg.
Speaker 2:Interesting Roy as Zuck.
Speaker 1:Interesting. But they're not
Speaker 2:That's gonna be hard for me to fully I mean, I'm sure he'll he'll
Speaker 1:You you know him as as from Succession. Yes. You know him as Kendall.
Speaker 2:So Academy Award winner Aaron Sorkin's follow-up to The Social Network, now officially titled The Social Reckoning.
Speaker 1:Sounds Jeremy Strong is a fantastic actor. Did you ever wind up seeing the Donald Trump movie?
Speaker 2:I did. Yeah. What was it called? That was wildly underappreciated.
Speaker 1:So underappreciated. It's a fantastic movie. Highly recommended. 2024
Speaker 2:Yeah. That was a tough one. Calling it The Apprentice must have hurt its reach.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because you type in The Apprentice, and you just get to the show. But anyway, it was independent biographical drama. And it takes you from Donald Trump, who he was in the seventies and eighties, and his relationship with Roy Cohn, who's played by Jeremy Strong. And Jeremy Strong brings out a completely different character.
Speaker 1:It doesn't feel like a Kendall Roy at all to me. It felt like an entirely unique character. And Sebastian Stan, who's the Winter Soldier, I believe, he did a great job as Trump. It's it's funny. It's interesting.
Speaker 1:It really takes you inside the mind of this person and how competitive real estate development was in the seventies and eighties in New York.
Speaker 2:It's also in just a very interesting view into the way that Trump might still be thinking today.
Speaker 1:Totally. Totally.
Speaker 2:Anyways, a little bit more here. So the social reckoning, a very ominous name.
Speaker 1:I wonder if it's gonna be positive.
Speaker 2:We'll hit theaters on October 9.
Speaker 1:I think it'll probably just talk about, like, the, you know, how the enterprise is so
Speaker 2:media good. Is
Speaker 1:And and how the stock rebounded after the metaverse sell off. That that was amazing. That's probably what it'll focus on.
Speaker 2:That's yeah. Yeah. The read Entirely.
Speaker 1:And just how DAUs have been growing.
Speaker 2:Up almost 10 x Time on the bottom.
Speaker 1:Sites been growing and fighting off competition from all these upstarts and winning. That's probably what they'll focus on.
Speaker 2:So Oscar winner Mickey Madison, Golden Globe and Emmy Award winner Jeremy Allen White, Emmy and Grammy nominee Bill Burr, and Oscar nominee Jeremy Strong will star in The Social Reckoning with Strong confirmed to play founder Mark Zuckerberg. The Social Reck Reckoning is written and directed by Sorkin who also produces alongside Todd Black, Peter Rice, and Stuart Besser. Production is expected to begin next month. Does that does that seem like an aggressive timeline? They're starting they're basically starting production a year out from the release date.
Speaker 2:Is that normal, film guy?
Speaker 1:I don't know. I don't know what's normal anymore. Who knows?
Speaker 2:Described as a companion piece to the social network, the new film focuses on events that take place nearly two decades after the boy genius programmer and a troop of tech pioneers invented what would go on to be the world's largest social media platform. The Social Reckoning tells a true story of how Francis Hagen, a young Facebook engineer enlists the help of Jeff Horowitz, a Wall Street Journal reporter, to go on a dangerous journey that ends up blowing the whistle on the social network's most guarded secret. Yeah. It sounds super positive.
Speaker 1:It's super
Speaker 2:Horowitz reporting a series of articles known as the Facebook files was published in 2021 and exposes and exposed Facebook for its harmful effects on teens and its knowing proliferation of misinformation which contributed to acts of political violence. K. Twenty ten's The Social Network also released in October was a critical and commercial hit earning 226,000,000 at the global box office and receiving eight Academy Award nominations including best picture. Sorkin's win for best adapted screenplay was one of the three Oscars it ultimately took home. Man, if you were the meta team, you'd probably pay a lot more than 2,226,000,000 to have this film not released because it's gonna just ignite a whole conversation Yeah.
Speaker 2:And rehash, you know, the Facebook files. Yeah. Introduce the Facebook files to more more people
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Than even read them
Speaker 1:Yeah. Totally. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So anyways, it will be very interesting to watch. Of course, we should we should probably try to do a do a a TBPN meetup. Everybody in tuxedos
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Find the biggest theater we can
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And and get, you know, a couple 100.
Speaker 1:It seems pretty I mean, it seems pretty negative, obviously. But I wonder what effect it'll have on tech. Because the first social network story was negative as well, not famously not loved by Zuck. And and when PT and Zuck have commented on it, said, like, it didn't quite get the story right, and it kind of assumes a zero sum world that was not really true in tech at the time. But the but the interesting effect was that, like, you wound up with, like, tons of startup founders, like, listening to the social network soundtrack and, like, grinding and building companies.
Speaker 1:And so a lot of people saw it, and they were like, yeah. It's kinda crazy. Like, I wouldn't wanna be in that position or, you know, get get you know, be on the wrong side of a deal. But a lot of people found it kind of inspiring, honestly. And I wonder if the effect will be similar here or if because it's such a big company.
Speaker 1:There's something still about the first Social Network movie that is just like a like a from zero to one, like, you know, the story of starting something that's just relatable and and inspiring even if it does have like a negative 10 tinge to it. Yeah. Anyway, back to the timeline?
Speaker 2:Back to the timeline.
Speaker 1:Jasmine's son is identifying something that has changed between GPT three and GPT five in the writing style. She says, it makes it me sad how much ChatGPT's writing style has degraded in the last five years. Look at the quoted samples from 2020 versus today's response style. And this is an example of asking Paul Graham on ChatGPT. So the GPT three was was sort of channeling Paul Graham's writing and and kind of fine tuning in real time.
Speaker 1:And so the the prompt, if you will, is, dear Paul Graham, I want to start a start up. I am not able to figure out how to go about it. Can you help guide me? Sincerely, Paras. And it says and the response is, dear Paras, I wish I had some easy way to tell you how to go about it, but it's not easy.
Speaker 1:Here's what I know. Startups are not linear unless you're talking about linear, the app. But your startup is not linear. Your startup should be using linear. They're not something you can line up and say, quote, okay.
Speaker 1:Do this, then this, then this. Startups go everywhere and nowhere. It's a particularly confusing process because and exciting, and the excitement throws you off. And since you don't really know what you're doing, you don't really know that you're lost. Most advice people give startup founders is either obnoxiously high minded or uselessly vague.
Speaker 1:Don't be misled. This is normal. I wish I had an answer that was better than that, but I don't. My advice is that you shouldn't take other people's advice too seriously unless they've started something big themselves. My advice is that you should not try to figure out what you should do until you have a plan for how you're going to do it.
Speaker 1:That includes getting customers. So a good first step is to make a list of companies that do things like what you wanna do and see if any of them are already run by people like you. Try to identify their ideas and then get to know the people who run them and see what they did to get going. That seems like pretty good advice. It also feels like it's in Paul Graham's voice.
Speaker 1:And so over in chat GPT five land, GPT five was the prompt was, dear Paul Graham, I wanna start a startup, but I'm not able figure out how to go about it. Can you guide me? And the result from GPT five's interpretation of Paul Graham's voice is, the best way to start is not by asking how to start a startup, but by asking what problem is worth solving. Good startups grow from founders who notice something missing in the world, often something they need them they themselves need. If you can make something people want even in a very small rough form, you'll be on the right path.
Speaker 1:Don't worry about the grand plan at first. Focus on building something useful, showing it to users and improving quickly. That loop, build, show, fix is the real guide. Sincerely, Paul Grant. It's not as bad as I thought it was gonna be based on the based on her comment.
Speaker 1:But it definitely I don't know. It definitely has, like, the the reinforcement learning, like, the the like the the Emdash has really been beaten into deep GPT five. That that's what it feels like. And it feels less like just an email that was fired off by PG, which is the the the the GPT three version has no Emdashes. It's kind of written in this, like, casual email style.
Speaker 1:The the the the GPT five version is a little bit
Speaker 2:more Yeah. It's it's not that there's anything technically wrong Yeah. With the current output. It's that reading the GPT three output was just much more enjoyable. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Felt like it was driven by human. This feels very clanker coded.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And and it's yeah. It's it's interesting. It's become the GPT five has become like everyone kinda gets the same tone out of it. But I'm excited for that to to to change.
Speaker 1:I I hope that with more personalization, we will get more personality personalization and we will actually see different personalities emerge. Anyway, Cody Plofker says, I hope I'm pronouncing that right, says, half of the value I add as CEO is just applying urgency to situations. I like that. I think that's valuable. You don't know what to do necessarily, but you just need to empower people to go figure it out, move fast.
Speaker 2:And Cody runs a massive beauty brand. Oh, really? Jones Road.
Speaker 1:Oh, no way.
Speaker 2:Also switched to ramp recently.
Speaker 1:Let's go. Congratulations.
Speaker 2:Also, way that he added value as a CEO. Is he thinking about Jones Road, adios?
Speaker 1:Customer relationship magic? Because Adios is the AI native CRM that builds scales and grows your company the next level. Tane says AI influenced ARR is the new community adjusted EBITDA because Adobe shares jumped 6% as AI influenced ARR tops 5,000,000,000. What does that mean? I pay for
Speaker 2:Somebody said
Speaker 1:some Adobe products at various points, Premiere Pro, After Effects. There are AI tools in there for rotoscoping, green screen. I think there's a subtitle product. We don't use a lot of this stuff. We kind cobbled a lot
Speaker 2:of Yeah. The challenge is when you have something
Speaker 1:I assemble the PDF.
Speaker 2:Community adjusted EBITDA. Yeah. That can be applied to any business. Right? Mhmm.
Speaker 2:You any CEO can figure out how to apply that framework and just say, hey, you're not properly evaluating how awesome our customers are. Yeah. And so AI influence ARR could be applied to any business that uses ChatGPT.
Speaker 1:Yeah. It feels like the the name of the game or what was happening in, like, the Adobe CFO's head is, like, the market is rewarding AI revenue. And so I need to shift my massive SaaS revenue into a bucket that's called AI revenue. And I can just do that by reclassifying existing revenue lines every quarter and have kind of a new growth curve emerge for the AI influenced ARR. But it's very unclear.
Speaker 1:Like, if this is if this is, you know, outcome based pricing, token generation, image generation, like, Adobe has image credits.
Speaker 2:There's an article in Barron's. Adobe stock gets downgraded. Generative AI isn't all it's cracked up to be, which is painful because they're like, wait. We're just we're actually just a SaaS company. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So Morgan Stanley downgraded Adobe to equal weight from overnight, cutting its price target to $4.50 from $5.20 due to AI concerns. So Morgan Stanley's concerned about AI from a competitive standpoint.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, it makes sense.
Speaker 2:So Morgan Stanley says it's still waiting for Adobe's push into gen AI and to bear fruit. That's one of
Speaker 1:came out with an AI image generator, like, right after Dolly, like, two years ago. And I have not seen a lot of adoption of it. And they don't really have the distribution for it. It's I mean, it should weave its way into all the different Adobe products. But
Speaker 2:It felt like they needed somebody like Scott Belsky. I agree. They had him for quite a while Yep. To be leading that effort and doing the deal making that even Alexander Wang is doing with Midjourney and things like that. Yep.
Speaker 2:Doesn't you just don't. We don't talk about Adobe much at all Yeah. On the show, right? Probably should.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:If they were properly playing this market, making big bets. Yeah. Surprised One they went
Speaker 1:of their pitches for their generative AI product was that they were saying, like, we have a ton of stock images. We will only train on stock images. We're not gonna train on any copyrighted material. And basically, every other lab was like, no. We're definitely training on copyrighted material.
Speaker 1:We think this is fair use. We're gonna fight this, And we will pay the fines. And in the Anthropics case, they're paying, what, billions of dollars in fines for a very specific thing. But that the the specific fine they're paying is not because they trained on copyrighted material. It's because they acquired the copyrighted material and not an above board way.
Speaker 2:And so According to Gemini, Adobe has only made one acquisition in the last twenty four months Mhmm. A company called Rephrase AI Mhmm. Indian based AI video startup. You would think they'd be more acquisitive right now.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 2:How many different gen AI Yeah. Creative tools there are and how many of them just aren't gonna make it Yeah. Yeah. Because they're only marginally better than generating images in Nano Banana.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Where were they during the Windsurf bidding process? Like, where were they in these, like, you know, they're letting these things get away. Yeah. But, yeah, mean, that's the nature of being a big company.
Speaker 1:Risk averse. They don't want some massive lawsuit showing up. I mean, like, $6,000,000,000
Speaker 2:Yeah. But they could of dollars. Using the existing models.
Speaker 1:I think so too.
Speaker 2:Better. They could
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Just add entirely new product lines Yeah. Yeah. Try to scale those Yeah. Just through the existing distribution they have.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe captions. They like captions has done some good stuff on on video editing on mobile.
Speaker 1:I the the they're just yeah. There's a bunch
Speaker 2:questions in mobile.
Speaker 1:There's a bunch of questions. I'm sure they have a lot of enterprise stuff.
Speaker 2:To my I I haven't met somebody early in their career that's excited about AI that's even talked about working with Adobe. Yeah. And so if they don't have the talent, they're not gonna have that exciting a product.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Conor in the chat says, their software acts like bloatware. Two thumbs down for Adobe for me. Frutal. They just integrated Nano Banana though.
Speaker 2:There we go.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. Thank you. Smart. Round paper bag. Rune says, would just walk around the research floor at OpenAI reminding everyone that they're propping up the world economy.
Speaker 2:It's good. Couldn't be more true. How many you got Broadcom that's popping on OpenAI partnerships. You got CoreWeave that's popping on OpenAI partnerships. You got Oracle that's popping on OpenAI partnerships.
Speaker 2:How many we got a lot of Yeah. We got a lot of important companies that are riding with OpenAI. SoftBank, right? Yeah. SoftBank SoftBank doesn't get enough credit.
Speaker 2:The stock's up
Speaker 1:It is it is crazy that
Speaker 2:Stock's up a 118% year to date.
Speaker 1:When the when the last batch of hyperscalers were birthed, there wasn't this there wasn't so many big companies that were, like, highly indexed or or dependent on them, you know? Like like, micro, Google's growth. People weren't like, oh, if Google doesn't work out, like, you know, Microsoft is screwed. Like or when Meta when Facebook first started, it wasn't like, oh, if Facebook it becomes like if Facebook stagnates, like, the global economy will fail. It's like it was it was like its own thing off in its own world, building its own data centers, and they were scaling, but it wasn't that crazy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Another. Well, Rune's coming on.
Speaker 2:So we're Three mentions of Rune so far. Well
Speaker 1:Well, how about a mention at 8sleep. 8sleep.com. Get a pod five, five year warranty, thirty night risk free trial, free returns, free shipping, baby. How'd
Speaker 2:say it? Away from home last night. Oh, yeah. You have number.
Speaker 1:I got an 80, so win by default. Wow. Right. Not not amazing. Get back into it.
Speaker 1:I'm waking
Speaker 2:up Should be winning with an 80.
Speaker 1:I know. Yeah. But win by default.
Speaker 2:Starbucks Code TV.
Speaker 1:Closing hundreds of stores and laying off staff as the chain continues to struggle is this post. But, the community notes says Starbucks is closing about 1% of stores, which comes out under 2,000. They plan to remodel old stores and open more. So story is developing. Two cents, the social network for your net worth did a poll and said, what's your main caffeine source?
Speaker 1:Who do you think won? Who do you think the richest said, the the most amount of value, I believe, went to energy drinks, but the most amount of votes went to coffee and tea. That's
Speaker 2:that's that's actually so bullish for energy drinks.
Speaker 1:Yeah. The the the read on this is that the rich people are using energy drinks and the poor people are using pills, caffeine pills. That makes sense. I mean, the most the most economically efficient way to consume caffeine is through pills. Right?
Speaker 1:They're super cheap to buy caffeine pills. Sure. No no caffeine had a strong showing as well. So pick your poison.
Speaker 2:Energy drinks might be This
Speaker 1:is a perfect transition. We gotta talk about Avi Schiffman's out of home campaign. If you wanna run an out of home campaign, go to adquick.com. Out of home advertising made easy and measurable. Say goodbye to the headaches of out of home advertising.
Speaker 1:Only AdQuick combines technology, out of home expertise, data to enable efficient seamless ad buying across the globe.
Speaker 2:And as much as we love out of home campaigns, as much as we love ads, probably don't do what friend.com it's an impressive move. The scale at which they have they've seemingly bought up all the out of home inventory in LA and New York.
Speaker 1:I'll give you the numbers. So Avi shared he came on our show and said he's doing the largest out of home campaign in history. And I was like, that can't be true. That's so crazy. What about, you know, Avengers?
Speaker 1:What about GTA five? Like, there's gotta be huge campaigns that have been run, but it seems like he might actually be running one of the biggest campaigns, if not the biggest campaign. He says 1,100 11,000 car cards. I don't exactly know what a car card is. 1,000 platform posters, a 130 urban panels, West Fourth Street domination, a 100% print, all five boroughs.
Speaker 1:It's the largest NYC subway campaign ever happening now. We have seen it all over LA. He said it was the largest billboard ad buying campaign of all time. And the ads
Speaker 2:And this is a crazy
Speaker 1:Don't say a lot about the product. It just says friend.com, and it shows you the pendant. And the pendant is kind of white on white.
Speaker 2:Well, some of them do.
Speaker 1:Jumping off.
Speaker 2:So Yeah. Some of I'm seeing one from us their Subway campaign Yeah. Yeah. That says and and one thing is Avi is pitching this as your new roommate. Yes.
Speaker 2:And the reason I think this is not the there's the the the the thing that's great about the campaign is how controversial it Yep. Right? There's a lot of people that are gonna be taking pictures and just saying, look how dystopian this is and posting it.
Speaker 1:That's exactly what's happening. Someone defaced it and said, stop profiting off of loneliness.
Speaker 2:But then some one person that saw that's gonna buy it. Yep. Or it could be more. Right? Yep.
Speaker 2:But Avi markets this as your new roommate is waiting. Mhmm. It's funny to me because
Speaker 1:People don't
Speaker 2:like roommates. Back in the day. But I like them even more now that I'm not sharing a space with them.
Speaker 1:Exactly.
Speaker 2:Living by yourself or Yep. Your family Yep. Is amazing. And I'm not personally in the market for a new roommate but I'm also I don't think the target market for this because I hang out with you for twelve hours a day. Yep.
Speaker 2:If we're not hanging out, we're probably on the phone talking about technology and business. But in the subway campaign, they say you're it says, I'll never bail on our dinner plans. I'll binge the entire series with you. I'll never leave dirty dishes in the sink. So while he's saying it's your new roommate, he's he's implying it's better than your roommate because you're getting, I guess, the the social benefits of a roommate without the dirty dishes in the sink and the bailing on dinner plants.
Speaker 2:Yeah. But people are people are not happy with this for one specific reason which is that I think Avi is very backlogged on orders. Sure. Gotten a lot of orders. Yep.
Speaker 2:He's gotten a lot of orders over the last year
Speaker 1:Yep.
Speaker 2:Since he started selling it. And this is not the first time he's going viral and getting a lot of attention. And he hasn't fulfilled a lot of them, it sounds like. Yeah. So he was going back and forth with some people.
Speaker 2:You know, people were saying bad know, a lot of marketing spend for a product that hasn't shipped orders from July. And so, yeah, if if you're somebody who just hasn't received your device yet, you're gonna be kind of annoyed to be seeing this that that they're trying to sell a lot more of these and you haven't gotten yours. And I'm sure they're going order by order trying to get through. Avi had said he'd sold 400 or he shipped out 400 in the last week,
Speaker 3:which is Mhmm.
Speaker 2:A lot of hardware. Yeah. But the question But that's like, wait. How much
Speaker 1:are these? $99 or $200?
Speaker 2:How much is the and $29.
Speaker 1:$129.
Speaker 2:So But the the main the I guess the this feels like a Avi more or less said this on our show last time he came on. He basically said that
Speaker 1:50 k of book
Speaker 2:I'm gonna do a crazy out of home campaign so I can raise my next round. Mhmm. That was I I I'm paraphrasing that. Yeah. But that was what I that was my read on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Because it it feels like the product is still super early. Yep. The review from Wired was abysmal. Yep.
Speaker 2:And I'm sure that the, you know, you can make the argument that the people that reviewed it are not the target demo.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:But I haven't, you know, it it it the the concern is that we're not seeing a ton of customer love out there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:People are getting these and so getting telling the entire world about your product before it's ready. Billboard campaigns can work to get hype and early interest. Yep. But they're best when you have a product that is already loved and you're just able to get more eyeballs on it, more attention, more customers. And so getting a whole new wave of customers that are then gonna be waiting a long time for their device and then potentially people that are getting them currently or or potentially let down, it just feels incredibly risky.
Speaker 2:The other thing I was looking into is, you know, the the website right now, I wonder how it converts. It's possible that, you know, it's priced in in a way that
Speaker 1:It is pretty affordable in terms of, like, where devices play. Like, people were shocked that the Meta Ray Ban displays are $7.99. And that's, what, seven times as much money? But it does feel like it just takes a while to tell you what the product is and, like
Speaker 2:Yeah. The main thing is this kind of parallax scrolling.
Speaker 1:It's a lot of, like, motion, a lot of physical, like, I gotta do a lot of work.
Speaker 2:Order. You can't hit order from from, like, landing on the web page.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I wonder if you go in the way back machine, can you find what app Like, what's my site was back at the first iPhone launch? Let me find that.
Speaker 2:I bet you there was a big buy button every you wanna buy a buy button every no matter where you are on the website, you should always be able to hit buy.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, that's like standard is like above the fold. Don't let don't make them scroll. Okay. When did the iPhone come out?
Speaker 1:02/2007. Right? 02/2007. Let's see what the the the Apple website looked like in 02/2007, you know, October. Let's see.
Speaker 1:It's loading. It's loading. I'm so excited. Yeah. Well, you know what a better piece of accessory might be?
Speaker 1:Something timeless?
Speaker 2:I know exactly what you're thinking about.
Speaker 1:What am I thinking about? Some hardware. Some hardware.
Speaker 2:A wrist.
Speaker 1:I think of an Aquanaut as a friend, really.
Speaker 2:And in some ways, it's super intelligence. It is. It It tell you the time.
Speaker 1:It can tell the date.
Speaker 2:Than a human.
Speaker 1:The chronograph can
Speaker 2:tell track time better than a human.
Speaker 1:It can. It's Oh, yes. Of course. If you're trying to if you're if you're timing lap times on the track with a Daytona, that's gonna be way more accurate than doing it in your head. So head over to getbezel.com.
Speaker 1:Your bezel concierge is available now to source you any watch on the planet. Seriously, any watch. Oh, no. The Apple website is not loading from 02/2007. It's a
Speaker 2:Well, the Apple website today is definitely best practice for selling consumer
Speaker 1:It's tough to make a comparison to today because everyone knows what an iPhone is, and they're on number 17. And so they can just say, it's an iPhone. It's the best It's a new iPhone.
Speaker 2:IPhone 17 Pro. You can hit the buy can hit learn more. If you hit learn more, you land on a new page with a cool video that says buy. It's just buy buy buy. So anyways, we'll see how this plays out.
Speaker 2:The challenge is, you know, having this visceral of a reaction even from tech insiders.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Like, there there definitely is something to, like, kicking the bear and rage baiting a little bit and getting a bunch of somewhat negative attention, but then people will there will be a small percentage of people that are like, I'm in. I wanna try it. And that works. But it feels like at some point, you have to flip into just, like, normal territory and kind of just speak to the product benefits.
Speaker 1:In 01/31/2008, the Apple homepage, do you know what was above the fold? It was right there.
Speaker 2:What was it?
Speaker 1:Wasn't the iPhone. It was the world's thinnest notebook, the MacBook Air. You can you have to click somewhere else to find the iPhone January update. Let me see if they have some other page. They're just like, yeah.
Speaker 1:Put the iPhone in the back. You know?
Speaker 2:Yeah. We got some MacBooks.
Speaker 1:Saw the MacBook Air. I mean, the MacBook Air was beautiful computer and certainly then they had the iMac. The iPhone is really not on display here. Like, it's it's store the header is store, Mac, iPod, and iTunes, and then iPhone. IPhone is the fourth item in the bar.
Speaker 1:It's like the fourth most important if you rank them by by importance. But I'm trying to go to apple.com/iphone in the Internet archive to see how they position it. And it's extremely wonky. They say features. Phone, iPod, Internet, the fourth feature.
Speaker 1:Can you guess the fourth feature of why you would want to buy the iPhone?
Speaker 2:Alarm clock?
Speaker 1:Nope. This is even better. You're gonna love this. You're gonna love this. You're gonna love
Speaker 2:Stock.
Speaker 1:Love this. No. So you got the phone. You got the iPod. You got the Internet.
Speaker 1:The fourth feature for why you would wanna buy the iPhone, high technology. I'm not kidding you, dude. High technology. Isn't that remarkable?
Speaker 2:What does that even mean?
Speaker 1:Let's find out. I got to click on high technology. It just has an image of like a laser or something. Like, I don't know what it is. And then they show some maps and stuff.
Speaker 1:But what is this high technology that they're
Speaker 2:They need to bring that back.
Speaker 1:Oh, high technology. It means that it has multi touch. It it has wireless. It has an accelerometer and a proximity sensor.
Speaker 2:That is high-tech.
Speaker 1:Multi touch was high technology at the time.
Speaker 2:That that feature set allowed you to drink beer, an animated beer.
Speaker 1:The accelerometer was the reason that you could do that. That's right. That actually was high technology at the time. This
Speaker 2:is That's right. We don't know how to make high technology. We don't. We don't. I mean, we're We got got got by.
Speaker 1:Met a team, and we were like, make the beer app. What's the beer app? And it's such a jogo, the beer app. But the beer app is a moment that means that you've arrived, you have the crazy developers. And people are making memes and they're using your technology in ways that you never could have imagined.
Speaker 2:If you're not getting memes,
Speaker 1:you're good. Yes, exactly. And Studio Ghibli was that. And we've yet to see that on the Vibes app. What will the friend version of that be?
Speaker 1:What will be the you know, becoming a platform? What will be the product or the use case that isn't imagined by the designer that winds up driving value, at least for fun. You know? Like going to wander. Find your happy place.
Speaker 1:Book a wander with inspiring views. Hotel green amenities, dreamy beds, top tier cleaning, twenty four seven concierge service. It's a vacation home but better.
Speaker 2:Better.
Speaker 1:Do you see the Fermi IPO? Q Cap says the upcoming Fermi IPO will be the most twenty twenty five IPO. All the red flags are there. Literally, single one. There's no revenue.
Speaker 1:It has a $13,000,000,000 valuation. It's powering AI by 2038. There's a nuclear component. The nuclear component will be called the Donald j Trump generating plant, which only could mean one thing. Buy.
Speaker 2:So I think this is going out on the NASDAQ.
Speaker 1:Texas sized IP.
Speaker 2:No. Requirements than NIC.
Speaker 1:It's a it's a wild wild time out there. Be safe. Do your own research. This, of course, is not financial advice. We might be
Speaker 2:Founded only nine months ago.
Speaker 1:Nine months to get to 13,000,000,000? Is that a new record? That nine months to get to 13,000,000,000? Who's done that?
Speaker 2:He did it
Speaker 1:in Maybe. Yeah. Maybe in the
Speaker 2:coins Minutes.
Speaker 1:In the coin world. Minutes. It it went out and and minutes later
Speaker 2:was he. So Fermi stock listing date nears for AI data center and power company backed by Rick Perry founded only nine months ago. The company plans to build a Texas based hyper grid. Let's give it up for hyper grids.
Speaker 1:I like that. And become a
Speaker 2:provider of data and power centers. They got a cool
Speaker 1:intelligence is out. We're talking about hyper intelligence now.
Speaker 2:As the rise of AI continues, companies operating in this space relying on the technology are finding that they have two inextricable needs. Data centers that can run and process the AI and access to ample energy to power those vast data centers. One new company, Fermi America. Props for putting America in the name of the company. Aimsoft for solutions for both these needs.
Speaker 2:And this week, Fermi announced plans for an upcoming initial public offering and dual stock listings. They're gonna be listing in The UK as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Fermi America is a very young company. It was only founded this year, just nine months ago in January 2025. The company is so new that its website is still a relatively bare bones affair. Let me pull it up. It just says yeah.
Speaker 2:It looks like a stock website from looks like they got a template of a website. It just and and doesn't even look like they replaced all the stock imagery. They just said
Speaker 1:They should have vibe coded something from scratch.
Speaker 2:Saying.
Speaker 1:Mixed bag with naming your company after Enrico Fermi? Just after a famous scientist who's not involved. Obviously, Tesla's done very well. Zach Weinberg has Curie Bio after Mary Curie. Right?
Speaker 1:Nikola did not do well, of course.
Speaker 2:Yes. So Fermi Blank Foundation. Was Enrico Fermi was an Italian and naturalized American physicist renowned for being the creator of the world's first artificial nuclear reactor, the Chicago Pile One, and a member of the Manhattan Project. He has been called the architect of the nuclear age and the architect of the atomic bomb. So anyways, let me try to get a little bit more color here.
Speaker 2:Given the youth of the company, it's no surprise that the majority of Americans have most likely never heard of it. But they have heard of its co founder, Rick Perry, the former Texas governor who ran as a GOP contender for president in 2012
Speaker 1:Oh, he's behind this?
Speaker 2:I was trying to think like
Speaker 1:Rick Perry.
Speaker 2:Perry. I know that name but it's not in the tech context. After unsuccessful presidential bids, Perry was appointed as the fourteenth United States Secretary of Energy during President Trump's first term in office. Mhmm. In addition to Perry, Fermi America was also co founded by Toby Neubauer, a former co managing partner of Quantum Energy.
Speaker 2:Fermi American tends to be a provider of data and power centers that other companies can use to host their AI needs. But I say, quote, intends to because Fermi America doesn't actually provide any services yet. Heck, it doesn't even have any infrastructure yet to provide its services. What Fermi America does have is a lease. Let's give it up for having a lease.
Speaker 2:A lease for 5,200 acres of land owned by Texas Tech University Mhmm. Which is where Fermi plans to build a hypergrid in an undertaking dubbed Project Matador. Just sitting.
Speaker 1:The naming is fantastic.
Speaker 2:What is Project Matador? Project Matador is the name given to Fermi America's hyper grid project. This hyper grid will be combined data and power center that other companies will pay to lease Yeah. Space on to run. So anyways Well, I they wanna deliver up to 11 gigawatts of low carbon hyper redundant and on demand power directly
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:To the world's most compute intensive businesses. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean, there's there's stuff all over the place. This is the nature of bull markets. You get all all kinds of crazy outcomes. Shanu Mathieu is sharing a quote from David Einhorn, the hedge fund manager. He's he's warning that AI's trillion dollar infrastructure spending could destroy vast capital despite tech being transformative.
Speaker 1:He questions whether all the extreme spending by hyperscalers will deliver returns, saying there's a reasonable chance of tremendous capital disrupt destruction, which we hate. I hate the idea of capital being destroyed. But there's still a lot to look forward to. There's still great products coming out every single day.
Speaker 2:Like Vibes.
Speaker 1:I I I think I mean, I'm we've discussed it a lot. We're gonna continue discussing it with our next guest, Arun. But I I think that there is a way to have fun on Vibes. I'm already having fun with my promoted post, my spawn con. I came in there hot
Speaker 2:Came in hot. Ad.
Speaker 1:TBPN ad. Say I say, the if you bring your own creativity, you can probably have fun on there. But be careful because you might just wind up in Infinite Jest world. Anyway, we have our next guest, Rune, the anonymous poster, the world famous Rune in the TVP and Ultradome. You go.
Speaker 1:To the stream. How are you doing, Rune?
Speaker 3:Hello. Hello. I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 1:We're fantastic.
Speaker 2:At long last.
Speaker 1:What mean, it's a it's a printing your post We've been printing your post for months. So thank you for everything that you do for the timeline. Always providing insight You and
Speaker 3:guys mentioned me four times this week, and I was like, I gotta come on just to run off the week, you know?
Speaker 2:It's time.
Speaker 3:It's Close it out. Yeah. Jordan Yeah. And And thank you brothers.
Speaker 2:Yes. Walking around the and and, you know, reminding the researchers that you guys are, you know, holding up the global economy. Yes. It really is important work. What they're doing and also you to just make them remember.
Speaker 3:I mean, I know you guys comment on this, like, all the time, but, like, most of the growth in the equity markets is just AI Yeah. You know, for the past, like, three years. Yeah. It's like really nothing else. So, you know, you gotta not make mistakes.
Speaker 3:Gotta keep pumping out great models.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Make mistakes. Don't make That's all we're but yeah, we've talked about it earlier today, the number of companies that are now barnacles on the whale of OpenAI is
Speaker 1:The entire global economy is sort of a Yeah.
Speaker 2:But you could even get you could even get more specific.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And the the oracles, the core weaves, you know, you can make a really long list.
Speaker 1:Yeah. How are you feeling generally? The the the timeline was extremely split this morning and yesterday. A lot of incredibly great vibes around ChatGPT Pulse, less great vibes around the Vibes app. Are you happy with the direction that the productization of AI is going?
Speaker 1:Are you happy with the rollout and the actual implementation of these models so far? How how have you been processing the way these models are making their way into every everyday lives?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I don't know. Like, okay. The chatbot medium, this one thing, it's a I I think the pulse is, like, a fine and good idea. It makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Vibes, I don't know. But, like, the the the thing I am, like, manic about is Codex. And you've probably seen me tweeting about it like three times a day. But like
Speaker 2:More than that. More than
Speaker 3:that. Yeah. Like Codex and I guess like Cloud Code are like genuinely amazing. Like, I I don't wanna, like, you know, glaze Yeah. A company's products too much.
Speaker 3:But, like, it it's like, I don't understand how I did software engineering before this. I have, like No glaze. 20 terminal agents open and, like, writing, like, five different things at once. And I have an idea, and I just, like, open up a new terminal, and I just, like, get it working on it. And it's, like, a completely different way of life than anything I was doing before, which is like you, like, linearly slog through one script and then, like, there's, like, three or four bugs and, like, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Like, it's clear to me that this alone is, like, completely upends the software industry. And, you know, like, we're talking about massive data center CapEx across the industry and, like, what is it gonna be spent on? And, like, even the inference alone for this kind of thing is, like, first of all, like, super expensive and then, like, super in demand, I think, once it like really percolates through the economy. So yeah. I mean, like, that's the thing that is fueling my mania these days.
Speaker 3:Like, it it reignited my, you know, fuel AGI fire.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah. So you said completely upending the software industry. What what does that actually look like in your mind? Because, you know, one thing is if developers are getting Kirkpatty was kind of like gets higher output
Speaker 1:developers are gonna be fine. A lot of other people have been like, you know, 90% of software engineering will be automated, but maybe we do 10 times as much. So this is the same amount. Like, what's the long term view for you?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I I, like, really don't know about the jobs or whatever. It's, like, extremely non nonlinear and hard to predict.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I feel like there's so much you know, like, I see the product managers of my company, they're, like, vibe coding useful ops all the time. And, like, people who are not even engineers are becoming, like, programmers because of these things. And I'm sure that's a case for, like, the most junior level engineers who are, like, bright are, like now they're, like, way better than they were before. I remember my first year of programming, and I was, like, running to my mentor for, like, you know, like, how do I run this whatever basic thing? And, like, they just don't have to do that anymore.
Speaker 3:Like, they have to they can avoid all that embarrassment. They have this, like, amazing agent or, like, the ChatGPT itself or whatever it is. To me, it would seem like the productivity of an entry level engineer is, like, just way higher than it would have been, like, five years ago. I can't, you know, speak to
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Jobs impact in, like, the two years or three years
Speaker 1:or ten years or whatever. What about in terms of, like, consumer impact? I feel like you still hear people complaining about, like, my United Airlines app is not as great as it could be. And it feels like in a world where software engineering gets way easier, more reliable, higher leverage, like, we should start seeing higher quality software diffuse through the everyday lives of people that
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Interface with technology. Does it feel like that's happening, going to start happening? Or is there something sort of intractable about an airline booking app that just can't be solved?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean, like, first of all, I don't trust people's vibes on this. I don't actually think they're paying good attention how the United app looked like three years ago or
Speaker 1:whatever. Sure. Sure.
Speaker 3:I I I'm sure it's actually a lot better. Yeah. Like, I've seen the in flight displays on United, and they're like, what is this? It's like space age. It's way better than it was before.
Speaker 3:And okay. I I don't know that United engineers are using any of these tools. Maybe they're not. Maybe their company doesn't allow them. Maybe they use, like, some third party sourcer.
Speaker 3:I have no idea. But, you know, that's what I was saying. Of course, these tools, yeah, I have no idea what time it takes for them to percolate through an economy or, like Yeah. When people in, like, the, you know, like, the the non tech Fortune five hundreds are using them or anything like that. But I I from everyone I've spoken to that works at, like, say, like, GM or Ford or something, they're like, what's Codex?
Speaker 3:You know? They it's not there yet. Of course not. I hope it will be, but the fact that it even exists is just, like, exhilarating to me.
Speaker 2:Do you think Codex has the potential to be a hit consumer product and get you know, end up eating into the market share of some of these, new vibe vibe coding, you know, companies?
Speaker 3:Of course. But also, I think they're very excited. Like, even just the cursor people because I don't know. Like, there's, like, a competition between OpenAI and, like, Anthropic, and that's probably good for them. I I don't know.
Speaker 3:It's hard for me to say, but I'm pretty sure that Curiosity's killing it, they're very excited.
Speaker 1:Yeah. How are you using the various products? It seems like you're using codecs all the time. Are you using codecs on mobile as well? Are you in sort of like a like, you know, wake up in the morning and you have an idea or like a shower thought.
Speaker 1:And I find myself doing this with, with just GPT five Pro queries or deep research queries. I have some idea. I fire it off, and I just wait. But I'm not writing a ton of software. Are you having a similar experience that I'm having with just knowledge retrieval in code generation where you might be firing it off, like, when you're in the bathroom and getting dinner with someone and you just have a second, you just fire something off?
Speaker 3:No. I'm just, like, not a hardcore enough engineer to be doing stuff like that. But I I I definitely use, like, five pro or whatever all the time just to whatever random idea comes to my head. I wake up. I'm, like, researching some, I don't know, some statistic or, like, setting off some query, like, what percent of the economy is, like, software engineers or
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. How much how much do you think you personally cost OpenAI monthly? Like, how much are you
Speaker 3:purchasing? A lot. I I I can't say, but a lot.
Speaker 1:A lot. What what about other other use cases? I mean, we saw that a lot of people are using these models for, like, like, life coaches and just people chatting, and I've never really gone down that path. I don't know. Maybe I'm just busy or I talk to Jordi all day long, so I I don't have a lot of room for that.
Speaker 1:I I hit knowledge retrieval constantly. Like, the GDP of some country, yeah, give me the full history of it. Build a
Speaker 2:bottom chart. Deep research report yesterday on the capital of California. Thought thought for fifty nine seconds. Yeah. It it ran a 100 searches.
Speaker 1:I I hit that stuff all the time, but I've but I've I I haven't gotten into any sort of flow of of asking for interpersonal advice, life coaching, therapy, any of that stuff. Have you had any luck, or is that just like a is that a skill issue or just personality or a certain type of person that uses things that way? Like, do how do you think about that use case?
Speaker 3:I've definitely used it in, like, a tough corner. Like, what decision do I make? And I, like, have it discussed with me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't know. I'm probably not a typical user because I, like, read what it says, and I'm like, I was this one seems kinda like bullshit, and this is like a great point. And Yeah. I, like, weigh it and ignore it and whatever. But, yeah, I think, actually, new Sonnet was an amazing model for this.
Speaker 3:And this was
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:What they called Claude 3.5 Sonnet new.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 3:And I think that kind of invented this genre of, like, I asked Claude for everything in my life. And I think, like, the latest GPT models can also do this. But, like yeah. There was, like, memes going around about the the Claude boys back then who just, like yeah. Like, literally everything they do, they'd run it through Claude.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's a it's a bit weird for sure. Like, are you, you know, are you being puppeted by an AI? Like, it's a it's a bit loss of control vibes. It's Yeah.
Speaker 1:I feel like my interactions with AI are getting less back and forth over the last two years. I used to chat back and forth and ask a lot of follow-up questions. And I feel like now if I just talk to GPT five Pro on voice mode for a minute and give it a bunch of context, it's gonna come back with a very thorough answer that I might have one or two follow ups on. But I'm not really I certainly don't have this concept of, like, there's one chat that's, like, fine tuned at this point on this particular that I oh, yeah. My economics chat, I go over here when I'm asking an economics question.
Speaker 1:Like, everything is done at just, a new chat router level, basically. Is that kind of mirror your experience?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I I I do think the OpenAI models are built for that. It's like a single turn, think really hard, get you the right answer type of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. What about what about, like, the flavor of the of the responses? Like, with the GPT three API, it it felt like if you if you prompted it with, the green text, you'd get a green text back. And it felt like there was a lot of a lot of variation in the style of writing. And now we're seeing it maybe it's just the way people are prompting, but it feels like there's a little bit of, like, a a a consolidation in the in the textual style, the stylistic flourishes, the it's not the it's not that, it's this, and the em dash and all of that.
Speaker 1:Like, it feels very much like if I opened up your app and asked you and asked the same question, I would get the same stylistic flourishes. And I'm wondering if that's something that you think will continue or maybe that's just a temporary moment of time and will wind up in the future where someone's talking to that the vibes of Claude three point five, maybe in a different completely in a completely different model, but they're they have those vibes over there, and then someone has four o vibes over here. But they're not talking to literal four o or literal 3.5, but they've kind of landed in a local minima of this is the tone that they like for all of their interactions.
Speaker 3:Yeah. These are great questions. I mean, like, the the g p d three model to me was, like, my first feel the AGI kinda, like, hair raising moment. I remember playing with it and just being like, oh, this thing's intelligent in ways that are, like, yeah, just, like, nontrivial, creative, etcetera. But people are also, like, too rosy about, like, the base models.
Speaker 3:They they just don't they're, like, extremely, random. They, like, they don't even have a concept of, you know, like, we talk about hallucination, but what the base model is doing is only hallucination. Like, it's not, you know, maybe one out of 20 completions will have a coherent, like, front to back, like, sensical text. And there are people who can do, like, magical things with it, but there's a reason there's no, like, GPT three moment, and there was, like, a a chat GPT moment where, like, the like, it took off among consumers and same with, like, Claude and and whatever. Right?
Speaker 3:But there is, like, at all these companies, there's this what do you call it? Like, a path dependence of post training. So, like, the models sample and you collect comparisons between model samples, And you're like I shouldn't talk too much about post training. But, like, the point being, like, are very reliant on the previous generation of models to Yeah. Train your next model.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. And so there's, like, some style burn in that goes on. Sure. And, like, the late Claude's resemble early Claude, and, like, the late Grocks resemble early Grock and so on. And yeah.
Speaker 3:And, like, they all have some similarities probably because of, like well, mean, they're all training on the same giant dataset of the Internet more or less, and they also have, like, these common datasets.
Speaker 1:I guess I just wonder if, like, there's there's demand from people for more variation in vibes. I was I was asking Mark Chen about this where, like, I was like, everyone was saying GPT 4.5 had a big model smell, better like flavor to it, better writer. But deep research was the one that could get you all the results. And I was like, so is the best practice for me now that I should like run a deep research report and then take that to GPT 4.5 and say, hey, rewrite this better. And and I'm wondering if there's some world where there's just demand for, like, I a lowercase person to chat with.
Speaker 1:I like really punchy. I mean, I guess you can kinda put that in the prompt, but I'm wondering if that's like at some point gonna be an emergent property.
Speaker 3:I think you should try the file thinking model. If you
Speaker 1:I use
Speaker 3:have some use case like that.
Speaker 1:But yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's the same thing, basically. Yeah. Mean Does that work for you?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not it's honestly, like, I'm I'm fine with the with the I I like the the the the flavor and the vibe that it comes back to me with. It's just it is impersonal. But that's exactly variation.
Speaker 1:But but that's exactly what I'm hitting it with, and I want that. I want it to be a an assistant. I want it to be a helpful assistant. I want it to be like a textbook. I want bullet points.
Speaker 1:I want em dashes. I want clear analogies. And so I'm very satisfied. So I'm wondering if I mean, maybe it's just a revealed preference versus stated preference. But it seems like there's a lot of stated preference out there that people are sick of em dashes.
Speaker 1:And if it's not this, it's that. And it's certainly like a tell that someone used a LLM. But I was just thinking more about, like, how if there really are people out there with the revealed preference, with the true preference for something and and and will the models eventually be able to be many things to many people, show a different face to every single different person.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I think the end stage is like extremely personalized models that Yeah. Speak to you guys even before you even tell them
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:What it is that you want the model to sound like.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I see no real reason that's like not possible.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Just a matter of doing it. And the what else?
Speaker 2:Do you think do you think memory will start to be like, feel like more of a moat as products like Pulse get more popular? It feels like this is the first time that, you know, I I I don't feel Hold on.
Speaker 3:Can I ask you guys a question?
Speaker 2:Please. Yeah.
Speaker 3:When I saw the first episode, it was called the Technology Brothers Podcast Network. Yes. What happened?
Speaker 1:It was just Technology Brothers. And and then
Speaker 2:We had a big problem, which
Speaker 1:was that
Speaker 2:our community, Teapot
Speaker 3:Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:And and the and the tech community broadly honored that we were calling it Technology Brothers. But when journalists would write about Technology Brothers, they would introduce us as John and Jordy, the tech bros, and they would shorten it, which
Speaker 1:was
Speaker 2:massively disrespectful. And so we and once we realized we were doing our lives life's work, we did not wanna spend the next thirty years everywhere we go being introduced as the tech bros. And so
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's that's disrespectful.
Speaker 2:If they
Speaker 3:called you Jordy and John, the technology brothers, that's
Speaker 2:We would've kept riding with it. But it was a big It's a battle we lost. But Okay.
Speaker 3:I believe you credited me with that one. You pulled up a tweet on the first episode.
Speaker 2:Yeah. You were you were one of the first people to to truly, you know, expand Tech Bros into Technology Brothers. So thank you for popularizing the term. What do you Thank what do
Speaker 3:you think You changed. Yeah.
Speaker 2:What do you think of what Thinking Machines has been putting out lately?
Speaker 3:I think it's really cool that, you know, like, new labs, they're incentivized to speak very openly about their research because, you know, like, it's a great recruiting mechanism. You're like, there's some cool research you're doing and, like, let me come join. And then, like, I don't know. Maybe I guess Facebook was pursuing this strategy a while back, or Meta or whatever they're called now. Yeah.
Speaker 3:They they would, they open source everything. They write a lot of public papers, and and it was a big draw for people. I haven't read the latest paper, but I read the last one. It was something I I had been wondering about for a while and was a common question in the industry about determinism and nondeterminism and so on. Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's it's good stuff.
Speaker 2:I It's can't
Speaker 3:stuff. I don't know like it's great stuff. Don't know specifically what they're working on. I've heard rumors but I won't I I can't. I shouldn't talk about What
Speaker 2:about hardware form factors? What what's you know, speak generally. You don't have to talk about what you guys are working on internally. But what what's exciting to you in hardware broadly? Do we need new dedicated devices or is the phone good enough?
Speaker 3:I don't know. I don't have the answers to that. I like genuinely don't think about the hardware side very much.
Speaker 2:Well, that's that says something in itself.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean, I'm I'm pretty happy with my chat GBT on my phone, but I am.
Speaker 1:What was on your pulse today?
Speaker 3:I don't think I checked. Mine check right now.
Speaker 2:Check right now.
Speaker 1:Mine was mine was shockingly interesting.
Speaker 2:Pulse is a window into the mind.
Speaker 1:It was it was extremely interesting talking about bottlenecks and compute revolutions and retired coal plants powering AI campuses. And it even had one I was searching for different options for bonded cellular networks. So if you wanna bond a Verizon and AT and T, like, SIM card together to get, like, a really powerful WiFi hotspot on the go for live streaming, obviously. And it had a whole Yeah. Deep dive on that.
Speaker 1:And it's like, yeah, I'd search for that, but I would love to have that resurface to me in a different format.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:And so I was I was very pleased with the results. And it also felt like deeply maybe it's just like the way I've been using the product, but it felt deeply anti brain rot. It felt like, oh, these are these are these are articles. I don't even know what you would call them, but summaries that certainly push me to go deeper into something that's actually hard work learning as opposed to something that's more like candy and helping me just kinda tune out things. I I I enjoyed that.
Speaker 3:Look. Here here's like, mine is just exactly what you'd expect. It's like tracking AI's impact on power markets. It's like Chinese infrastructure spend. It's it's all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It's I mean
Speaker 3:A very predictable It's very predictable. Business.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Now I wanna know. Send me share me share that article with me. I wanna know about Chinese infrastructure investments and how they're tracking with the
Speaker 2:Well, maybe that's a feature. Rune shared his pulse today. I think so. Check it out.
Speaker 1:I mean, can already share the link. So yeah, you'll need to be able to share it in the app. Anyway, what else is keeping you up these days? You were talking you kind of laid out we reviewed the post on the show just talking more broadly about the nature of process power and Dan Wang's book. Have you where do you sit on the general characterization of the lawyerly society in America?
Speaker 1:Does it feel like we are becoming more lawyerly or less lawyerly?
Speaker 2:Well, some prominent engineers, founders, AI have certainly gotten litigious Yeah. Recently. So maybe America could do both.
Speaker 1:At the same time, many engineers are crossing over into the government.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I guess what is interesting to me is, like, the extreme depth of the capital markets in The US where, like, one company can raise hundreds of billions of dollars on infrastructure spend. And, you know, together, the industry is spending. I have no idea. You guys probably know the numbers better than I do.
Speaker 3:And that's, like, that's very interesting. So where are the, like you know, if it's, like, such a lawyerly society, why are we able to do this? Like, why are we able to spend so much? And and, of course, it's true. Like, if you look at, like, the West Side Of San Francisco, it's like it should not be this, like, rows and rows of single family houses.
Speaker 3:It's like, quite a waste. It's quite a shame. But there's many things like that that people have talked about ad infinitum. But in general, it's like, okay. Like, Elon Musk showed up, and he revolutionized two industries.
Speaker 3:Right? Like, the space travel, and the electric cars. And I'm sure he fought with regulators and, like, there's a bunch of lawsuits and whatever, but, like, you know, his, like, his I guess his will to power or whatever made it work. And so I I am always a bit skeptical when people say, like, you know, The US is impossible to innovate in because of regulations or it seems like it's it's getting done. People do it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. You know, maybe, like, the the highest level of government is more lawyerly in The US than China, but I don't there's also benefits to that, which Dan Wang talks about. You know? Like, there's no I I I don't wanna get into it, but I I think you guys know the the upsides of Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:The great rule of law and whatnot.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I do wonder if yeah. I mean, that that that's kind of the odd countertake is that maybe the depth of the financial markets is actually outgrowth of the lawyerly society when you have a bunch of lawyers who can create robust contracts where somebody feels comfortable parting with $10,000,000,000, a $100,000,000,000. Is that a function of engineering? It might be a function of financial engineering in some ways, but it is also a function of, strong legal contracts and the work of lawyers to be creative, but also fair in a way that instills confidence in the capital markets such that the company is willing to to That
Speaker 3:seems right.
Speaker 1:To to to deploy a $100,000,000,000 and know that there's a at least there's an understanding of the pathway to the return on investment and that there it's it's less there's less uncertainty.
Speaker 2:Well, on the other hand, you have TikTok allegedly selling for 14,000,000,000 Sure. Which I'm sure is less than what was spent to grow TikTok in The US.
Speaker 1:I don't know.
Speaker 2:But that's that's more
Speaker 3:government intervention. A couple more zeros than that. But yeah.
Speaker 2:Just a couple. It does seem Do you think the Gartner hype cycle is being over applied in the context of AI? Do you think we could just have a straight line acceleration and there's no there's no trough? Or are you trough pilled?
Speaker 3:I just don't get this thing where people, like, overlay graphs and they, like, do this, like, high level pattern matching when it's like, okay. Like, let's look at the basics, which is to me, the basics are codex, which is like, like, literally as of two months ago, this was not a thing. And now it's a thing, and it's like Yeah. To me, a mind blowing product. Just I can't I can't stress this enough.
Speaker 3:And, okay. Like, that alone is going to create just enormous revenue streams for both OpenAI and Anthropic, I assume, and Cursor. So, like, I don't know. I I just don't it doesn't seem worth the yeah. Of course.
Speaker 2:Like, this will it create will it create a trillion will it create a you you so so will it create a trillion dollar revenue stream?
Speaker 1:Potentially.
Speaker 3:I don't think it needs to create a trillion dollar revenue stream to to keep up with the the data center plans, but that's, you know, it's not for me to say. You should you should get on the the CFO or something, you know, the one of these companies and ask What
Speaker 2:what about give us your read on the state of open source today. OpenAI's open source models were demanded. They were released. And then you don't hear, you know, there haven't been a lot of noise surrounding them. But certainly a lot of a lot of noise coming around some of the Chinese open source models.
Speaker 2:But what's what's your kind of
Speaker 1:current framework? Open source models?
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's two takes on that. One is that people demanded it, but they didn't actually want it. Yep.
Speaker 3:The other is that maybe the OSS model just wasn't meeting the market needs or like it was not good at whatever it is the market wanted. I don't know. And maybe it's a stated versus
Speaker 2:revealed preference at least for a lot of the people that were most loudly demanding open source.
Speaker 1:I mean, this is happening. I will say some
Speaker 2:of you that
Speaker 3:the Chinese the Chinese Kiwi K two model is like really quite excellent to me. It's a it's a great writer.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 3:Yeah. It's like the model I compare against most internally.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's kinda cool.
Speaker 1:I mean, people have people have been demanding open source versions of technology for a long time. There were open source social networks and open source Mhmm. An open source version of Shopify. Yeah. Yet Shopify accrued all the value, and no one's forking that particular Ruby on Rails project just to get their e commerce store up and running because I
Speaker 3:think there's there's, like, two problems with the the kind of hype around open source. One is, like, okay. You've open sourced some model, but it's also clear that that doesn't immediately make it accessible to, like, a billion people.
Speaker 1:Totally.
Speaker 3:Like, obviously, the ChatGPT product and, you know, like, whatever else. Grok is hugely downloaded, Gemini, whatever. But, like, the, it's, like, by far the easiest way for someone to access AI and for free. They're, like, doing it for free. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So, like, on that angle, it's not really all that decentralized just because the model weights are, like, flying around. Second of all, if everything was always open source, you guys know as well as I do that it is like, full industry would never support this kind of CapEx Yep. And this r and d spend and whatever. And so, like, there's just no there's no way, like, that that's just the only way to do things and, like, that's, you know, just just normal capitalism. You know?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Question from the chat. Did you read one piece?
Speaker 3:No. I have not. I have a a bunch of friends who swear by it, but I've never never gone into that. Are there any other rule law.
Speaker 1:Are there any other, cultural influences that you pull from? Favorite movies, books, comic books, anything?
Speaker 3:Oh, yeah. Of course. All the time. What's the
Speaker 1:top of the stack?
Speaker 3:My favorite show ever is probably this anime called Evangelion.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 3:It's like a nineties TV show. It's like kinda grim, but, like, in like, is this the staple of, like, the mecha fighter genre?
Speaker 1:Yep. Are there are there metaphors from is it Evangelion or Evangelion? Mhmm. Are are are is is there a metaphor
Speaker 3:World Heads called Evangelion. Yes.
Speaker 1:Evangelion. Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's Because I say it the way the Japanese say it. But Yeah.
Speaker 1:Is there are there themes in that story that, people pull from and apply to, like, the modern world, and they go, oh, this is just like Evangelion. Evangelion.
Speaker 3:I certainly think there's, like, a dense religious metaphor in there for, like I don't know. It's like a classic coming of age tale where Sure.
Speaker 1:Bill Dungsroman.
Speaker 3:Exactly. That's what they call it. Yep. And this this kid, he's kind of like a depressive anti like, he's got none of the good qualities of protagonist. He's, like, constantly crashing out, and he's, like, there's a bunch of girls who are into him, and he's, like, not capable of talking to any of them.
Speaker 3:And he Elite. You know, but he's, like, magically, like, the best guy in the world with piloting these robots to beat these aliens. And, like, humanity keeps calling on him even though he's, like, being mentally destroyed to come combat the aliens. And it's like a story about, like yeah.
Speaker 2:If you can crash out and not talk to women, but if you're good at if you're good at driving the robots
Speaker 1:History will remember remember your name for sure.
Speaker 3:Totally.
Speaker 1:What's the best way you get started with Evangelion?
Speaker 3:Start with episode one. There's only Just watch it.
Speaker 1:It's not like, oh, you gotta read the books first, that type of thing. You know how people say that about like, don't watch the movie until you see the read the books or whatever?
Speaker 3:If you wanna get really pedantic anal about it, there's, like, a different subtitles that came out in the nineties that are better than the Netflix subtitles. But, like Okay. Okay. It's not really that important,
Speaker 1:you know.
Speaker 3:Like, it's a big buried entry.
Speaker 1:Okay. Okay.
Speaker 3:There's 26 episodes in a movie. It's pretty straightforward. It's not like some crazy watch order and whatnot. Okay. Maybe let's check it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. I'll schedule What's a bunch
Speaker 3:of media I lost? Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:What's the current state of the talent wars from your view? Did we peak over the summer or is it still just as intense? What's your read on it?
Speaker 3:I mean, it seems like okay. If a researcher is a manager of compute and the compute numbers are growing and then, like, the effectiveness of a researcher is more and more important than I don't know. Like, that line is trending up into the right as far as I can tell. But do you guys agree? Does that logic make sense?
Speaker 3:I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah. A 100%.
Speaker 2:I think the logic makes sense.
Speaker 1:I just think it's interesting that we're seeing essentially the same thing play out that we've seen for, I don't know, for generations in entrepreneurship where a founder can marshal capital and have leverage and incredible economic upside. Now we're seeing founder level wealth and financial outcomes applied to employees, which is just a different thing. It used to be in order to get the big, big numbers, you had to go build something externally, and then the board would justify paying you a bunch to bring it in in house. And now it feels like companies are more they've actually just cracked the code on, hey, come work here. Build this thing that's going to deliver a bunch of value, and we will pay you like you're a founder that was out in the wilderness and we acquired in.
Speaker 1:And it feels like it's in some ways, it always should have been this way.
Speaker 3:It feels like an acquihire to me, like just some sort of distributed acquihire.
Speaker 1:Totally. Yeah. There Yeah.
Speaker 2:That was that was that was my framing for it. Yeah. You just have to look at it as an unauthorized distributed acquihire. Yeah. It's like
Speaker 3:Okay. And, like, how much did Zuck pay in total for all these researchers over the course of four years? Yeah. Is it, like, that enormous? Is it, like I I don't know.
Speaker 3:Like, completely unrelated the market cap.
Speaker 1:Certainly not relative to market cap. And especially if you just think about, like, even if you take the boring view of, like, AI is just another business line that they need to be in. You know? It's like, oh, they're they're spinning up a a a new division. It's like, well, if the new division drives 10% of their revenue or 20%, it becomes a significant business line.
Speaker 1:Investing 1% of your market cap makes a ton of sense to actually just, like, be in there. There there there's way more complicated dynamics there. But even if you just saw it as, like, we need an infrastructure team. We need a database team. We need a front end team.
Speaker 1:It's like you need an AI team, and you're gonna have leverage in in this case. What do you think about this Rich Rich Sutton take that's going out, dropped on the Dorcas show? LLMs are maybe not bitter lesson pilled, this idea that we need, you know, an entirely new format. People have been saying this for a very, very long time. Deep learning is gonna hit a wall, then we come out with something new.
Speaker 1:What what are your thoughts on the father of reinforcement learning potentially not thinking that LLMs are bitter lesson pilled?
Speaker 3:I think this is a common sentiment at, like, DeepMind that they were always, like, they kinda held language models with a bit of, like, this is icky. This is not pure. Because we're not starting from scratch. We're learning from the human Internet, and that's, like, that's not you know, it's not pure in some sense. Unlike, say, alpha zero, which is learn from nothing.
Speaker 3:Like, you just self play yourself to superhuman performance. So, yeah, like, maybe it's not completely the most bitter lesson pill paradigm in the world. But, like, I don't know. That doesn't mean to me that it won't, like, reach extremely useful levels of intelligence. And I you you should ask Ilya already
Speaker 1:about that. It's it already is really useful. Like It's like the question of, like, will we get value out of this is, like, answered by DAUs and just a million anecdotes of people that use the products, in my in my opinion. Jordy, anything else? Oh, shoot.
Speaker 2:I got a lot more stuff, but we're over time.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Well, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 2:Glad we glad we finally made this happen. Thank you posting the posts that make this show possible.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:We truly enjoy covering everyone. John, you wanna hit the gong for Rune?
Speaker 1:Yes. Congratulations. Well
Speaker 2:Can't get out without a gong
Speaker 1:Two on 150
Speaker 3:What an honor.
Speaker 1:250,000 followers on X, I believe, is roughly the number or something like that. It's definitely gong worthy.
Speaker 2:There we go. Hit it. Good stuff, Arun.
Speaker 1:Thanks for coming.
Speaker 2:Thank you for your thoughts and your posts, and have a wonderful Friday.
Speaker 1:Have a great weekend.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2:Talk soon. Good stuff.
Speaker 1:Let's go back to the timeline, run through some posts before we get out of here.
Speaker 2:Confirm me already.
Speaker 1:Everyone in this company was given a whoop and is required to share their data. This this seems like something we would do with Eight Sleep.
Speaker 2:Is this?
Speaker 1:I used this to assign more work to those who are sleeping a little too well. You are a healthy military aged man. Why do you need eight hours of sleep? Because you need a high sleep score. But this is a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:I believe Omar Wassim, I feel like I've met him. Anyway, where should we go? There's some big posts. What is up with this bagel, the pop up bagel shop? Do you know about this, Jordy?
Speaker 2:Chris I've never been a bagel.
Speaker 1:Says, I'm calling it right now. This will be the next billion dollar franchise brand, the next Crumble. They're copy pasting the Crumble playbook, a playbook I'm not familiar with. 300 plus franchises sold in the first month, two point 2 to 5,000,000 gross per store with 25% net margins after fees lines out the door. So I'm not familiar with the crumble story.
Speaker 1:This feels like some
Speaker 2:new Crumble cookies is probably the breakout franchise of the last five, ten I think more like five years. So they sell cookies all over the country now, franchise model. So I think they maybe operated their first few stores. They now are like very focused on the franchise model. They have cookies that are probably like the least healthy thing that you could put into
Speaker 1:They're like really over the top. Really a whole cake in a cookie, basically. Really dense.
Speaker 2:Super high calorie. I'm sure they're super tasty all over the country now. They just
Speaker 1:But it sounds like a unique business model, where they've gone they've cracked the code on scaling retail through franchisees very soon. You always hear about like McDonald's and Burger King franchisees.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Franchise if you can have a a durable hit consumer franchise, it's one of the most amazing businesses in the world because you you get paid some percentage off the top. Yeah. So it's not a percentage of profits. You're getting a percentage of gross revenue in exchange for giving somebody access to your brand and menu and supply chain.
Speaker 2:It is valuable.
Speaker 1:And they sort of have an entrepreneurial outcome as well. There's there's plenty of towns where, like, there's a guy who owns a couple McDonald's and does very well and has a boat. Yeah. And then there's also Patrick O'Shaughnessy profiled the company
Speaker 2:And they're
Speaker 1:some street adviser company that does roll ups of them and has done very well as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. Ton tons of examples of people making a lot of money in franchises. You can start with, you know, working in one, then you can transition to being an operator. Then can add more.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You can buy more.
Speaker 1:Just like American dream.
Speaker 2:Roll them up and and they trade it pretty, you know, if you have a bunch of Burger Kings, they trade at a great multiple because it's a durable brand. And and and so, yeah, I think 300 franchises is crazy because they're getting a ton of upfront revenue and then they'll get a percentage of the gross over time.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So at look at this post from Jeremy Gaffan. He says, staying below a $10,000,000 deal size for twenty five years is remarkable. The real lesson from Mark Leonard, the founder of Constellation, to me is of maniacal discipline. And so the value of acquisitions was wait.
Speaker 1:How what is this? Average price per acquisition was, wow, down at 5,000,000 for 2007 all the way through 2012 and then still really low for a decade and paid a little bit more in 2013 and is now starting to pay more. But really, mean, people think about these like private equity software roll ups. The software company sells for we see the marks. People raise $20,000,000 They sell for $100,000,000 $200,000,000 That's the one that gets the attention.
Speaker 1:But there are so many companies that are selling for $10,000,000, $5,000,000, $20,000,000. And Constellation's picking them all up and built like a fantastic business integrating all these. You have to have some serious infrastructure to to to do something with a $5,000,000 business, like, that you just acquired. But Yeah. Certainly good coverage.
Speaker 2:BUCO Capital has a great post here from Intel. Apparently, was up another 19% yesterday. Well It's up another 20% in the last five
Speaker 1:I mean, do you know the story here? So Intel reached out to Apple and TSMC for for investment as well. And so NVIDIA wound up just kinda getting in early. As NVIDIA was like, we're
Speaker 2:gonna USA do got in early.
Speaker 1:The USA got in extremely early. We have pulled the auction, Brenner.
Speaker 2:Read through that. I'll be right back.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So the news is that Apple and TSMC might be playing ball, might be open up the checkbooks for Intel. Efforts to gain tech backers accelerate in the wake of US 10% stake in chipmaker. Of course, Donald Trump and the US government announced a 10% stake in Intel. Intel Chief Executive Lip Bu Tan has been hustling to secure investments and customer commitments needed for the chipmaker's comeback Among the companies Intel has approached about investments or manufacturing partnerships are Apple and TSMC, Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing.
Speaker 1:Those efforts were already underway before President Trump showed up showed an interest in the company last month, but have gone has since gone into overdrive since The US took a 10% stake in it, according to people familiar. The Trump administration has been using its influence to help revive Intel's sagging fortunes. Commerce secretary Howard Lutnick and others in the administration have for months been urging tech companies to work more closely with Intel, which was for the long, for was for long the world's largest semiconductor firm before it losing its lead to TSMC. SoftBank made a $2,000,000,000 investment in Intel. NVIDIA made a $5,000,000,000 investment in Intel and is now and that also includes a provision for Intel to design new hardware to integrate with NVIDIA's chips.
Speaker 1:Masayoshi Son and Jensen Huang have both been demonstrative in their support of the administration's technology agenda, which includes building up domestic semiconductor manufacturing capacity and supercharging the construction of data centers needed by the artificial intelligence industry. Bloomberg earlier reported on Intel's overtures to Apple. Tan earlier this year met with Tim Cook and has also spoken to C. C. Wei, his counterpart at TSMC, about a partnership or joint venture, according to people familiar with the matter.
Speaker 1:And so, basically, there's a question about how much can Apple even get out of Intel. Apple, of course, moved off of Intel chips and is now going direct to TSMC with the Apple Silicon project. And Apple doesn't doesn't pay a lot to Intel if anything. I mean, they sell, like, one Intel Mac still. It's, ten years old refurbished.
Speaker 1:It's, like, a very slow computer. But, of course, there are still things that Apple needs Intel chips for in the server and and to run their data centers. Like, every company is kind of a customer of every other company, so there's probably something to be done there. But the question of, like, how would an Apple Intel deal actually work is way less clear than an NVIDIA Intel deal because NVIDIA sells the the Hopper chip, but then they sell Grace, which is the CPU. They call it Grace Hopper.
Speaker 1:And you
Speaker 2:got and you got Donald Trump, who led the Series A.
Speaker 1:He did.
Speaker 2:So now Intel is trying to raise the Bs. And the Series A lead is going to look at potential B leads and say, hey, come on.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like that. I think the better analogy is more like the Series B lead is going to the Series A lead and saying because Apple and Intel grew up together. Apple exists because Intel exists. Apple would not have been able to build that MacBook Air that we saw from 2007 without Intel. There was an Intel chip in the Mac for a long time.
Speaker 1:And so Apple's been a You're front
Speaker 2:of center in the marketing.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Intel Inside.
Speaker 2:You're buying this new computer because Yes.
Speaker 1:And so Apple has gotten so much out of Intel. They're so rich. They have deep pockets. They have tons of cash. And so the Series B lead is saying, hey, I'm going to do a bridge round here.
Speaker 1:But the series a lead's gotta come in if they wanna maintain their position or they're getting crammed down. Crammed down in this position, in this scenario, is getting crammed down in tariffs or getting crammed down in taxes or some other thing. It's all part of this art of the deal craziness. But it does seem like if you're Apple, you say, hey, there's a way to extend an olive branch to the administration with their technology agenda. They want to bring back semiconductor manufacturing in The United States.
Speaker 1:We're just gonna see this as an investment. We could put our money in treasury bills. We could put our money in Intel stock. Let's put some money in Intel stock. It makes everyone happy.
Speaker 1:And so that might be the wind that might wind up being nature of this deal. But then at the same time, it's totally possible that Apple wants to do some sort of new chip design, they wanna go to Intel, and they wanna fab it with Intel, and they they find a way to do that. Is a world where Intel becomes a a manufacturer for Apple silicon chips because they are trying to get their their their, you know, most cutting edge node off the ground. They don't have customers. This is the famous thing that Lip Bu Tan said on that quarterly earnings call that panicked everyone.
Speaker 1:He was like, the big thing that we've been planning, no one wants it. And so that raised alarm bells, and that's where all this kind of came from. And and Apple could potentially go to them and say, hey. Yeah. The next iPhone chip or the next Mac chip will work with TSMC.
Speaker 1:We're happy with TSMC, but we'll also work with you Intel on your new fab that gets up and running if you can deliver at these levels. And how are they gonna deliver on that level? They need a lot of cash, so we're also putting up the cash. Yeah. And so another sort of circular deal, but, you know, the administration is kind of like greasing the wheels of all these deals to hopefully get Intel back on its feet and restore American semiconductor manufacturing.
Speaker 1:Feels like a
Speaker 2:war In meantime, Leopold is printing.
Speaker 1:Well. In the meantime, Leopold is printing. So congratulations to him. What else is going on? You shared a a story about a Radio Shack Ponzi.
Speaker 2:Well, this was Tai Lopez.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes. I'm
Speaker 2:He did something. He managed to raise, like, hundreds of millions of dollars for the new Radio Shack brand
Speaker 1:Yes. Which I
Speaker 2:think turned into crypto.
Speaker 1:He was buying all sorts of interesting things.
Speaker 2:He was in sports.
Speaker 1:Business. So Tai Lopez is famous for the here in my garage guru video that was kind of sort of a book club, I think, at the bottom of the funnel, sort of a how to get rich educational, inspirational hustle type genre of social media influencer. Huge buyer of YouTube ads in the early days. Everyone saw that Here in My Garage video. But he went on a spree.
Speaker 1:Rev's primary business was purchasing distressed retail companies with name brand recognition and converting them to e commerce only businesses. The securities offering that at issue involved eight REV portfolio companies, Brahms, Dress Barn, Franklin Mint, Linens and Things, which I have heard of, Models, Pier one, which I've heard of, and Radio Shack, which I've also heard of and I've never heard of Stein Mart. Franklin Mint, Shack, this is, of course, from Matt Levine, one of the greatest writers on the Internet these days. Not Bed Bath and Beyond, not GameStop. Bed Bath and Beyond sure was distressed.
Speaker 1:It's it filed for horrific bankruptcy in 2023, but before it raised a ton of money from retail investors and absolutely doomed at the market offerings. As its bankruptcy lawyers later put it, it raised that money as part of the meme stock movement started and fueled on Reddit boards and social media website because, quote, it checked the two boxes needed to become a meme stock, a troubled financial situation and nostalgia value. And because it checked those boxes, Bed Bath was able to go out to ordinary investors and get them to shovel money into a furnace. GameStop was also a part of that movement. Where is GameStop trading these days?
Speaker 1:GameStop was was was that movement because it was troubled and nostalgic.
Speaker 2:If you're nostalgic and troubled
Speaker 1:We got a stock for you.
Speaker 2:GameStop up 18 in the last month.
Speaker 1:No way.
Speaker 2:But down 13% year to date.
Speaker 1:What's the market cap?
Speaker 2:Current market cap's 11,000,000,000.
Speaker 1:That's huge. I feel like that's a lot.
Speaker 2:Mean
Speaker 1:For such a troubled I mean, Bed Bath and Beyond's bankrupt, so it's zero. So Yeah. On a relative basis, that's the meme stock that had some value for a medium amount of time. We'll see. But it did so well out of being a meme stock that it's no longer particularly distressed, GameStop, as you saw, is going.
Speaker 1:But it's definitely pivoting to e commerce. My point here is that if you go to retail investors and say, hey. Let's teach those fat cats on Wall Street a lesson. We're going to revive RadioShack. But with ecommerce, you're tapping into some deep and obvious patterns, you will undoubtedly raise a bunch of money, then you can steal it.
Speaker 1:The quote at the top is from a Securities Exchange Commission enforcement complaint against Tan Tanio Adrian Lopez, Alexander Mayer, and Maya Birkin Road. Bloomberg News reports, a company that snatched up distressed distressed brick and mortar brands including RadioShack, Pier one Imports, and promised investors big returns in a pivot to ecommerce operated like a Ponzi scheme.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So they actually raised debt.
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And they were offering a 25% preferred return. Yeah. And, anyways, there were a lot
Speaker 1:of red flags. It's pretty crazy. They they put out promotional videos that bragged that the portfolio companies were, quote, on fire, which the regulators did not like. It says in the complaint that while some of the retailer brands generated revenue, none generated any profits. At least 5,900,000 of the returns distributed to investors were in reality Ponzi like payments funded by other investors.
Speaker 1:Yes. Now, so there you framed it as debt. It sounds like they were equity investments that were paying some sort of fake dividend. It wasn't actually
Speaker 2:think they were structured paying a fake dividend on the debt.
Speaker 1:Oh, really?
Speaker 2:It was
Speaker 1:like, uh-uh. Uh-oh.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it was a lot of
Speaker 1:lot of going wrong there. But They accused the defendants of misappropriating approximately $16,100,000 in investor funds, which were diverted for two defendants Lopez and Mayer's personal use. That's not good. The complaint also explains the business strategy or at least the fundraising strategy.
Speaker 2:So Rev's primary business was identifying distressed companies with name brand recognition, raising fund funds from investors in order to purchase the brand's assets and converting them into successful ecommerce only businesses in one promotional video publicly available on the Internet. Tai Lopez touted Rev's business approach as, quote, one of the best strategies you can invest in.
Speaker 1:That sounds like financial advice. I wouldn't do it myself.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Seems rough. So anyways, Matt Levine finishes off. Quote, a troubled financial situation and nostalgia value, two best things you can have to raise money from individual investors in the twenty twenties. So I think enough people are getting burned on these now that that I I think people will will learn their lesson.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Hopefully. But history repeats or at least it rhymes. Well
Speaker 3:Well
Speaker 1:it's been a fantastic show.
Speaker 2:Great show. It is now. It's close to the weekend. It is. Whatever you're doing, have a great time.
Speaker 2:We will be back Monday
Speaker 1:Be back Monday.
Speaker 2:For another episode.
Speaker 1:We'll talk to you soon.
Speaker 2:Have a great evening.
Speaker 1:Have a great weekend. Cheers. Bye.