Small group leaders, pastors, and more discussing strategies for growth and community in church groups. The Small Group Network is an international ministry that equips churches to engage in deeper discipleship and community.
Hello, and welcome to F G squared.
Steve Gladen the global pastor of small
groups from Saddleback church polls
from his over 25 years of experience.
To encourage and equip listeners like
you to lead small group ministry.
So let's listen and learn together.
Steve Gladen: A beautiful day here over
in London, and we're starting off with
Nikki Gumbel, who is the vicar at H
T B Holy Trinity Brompton Church, and
also the Pioneer of the Alpha Program.
So Nikki, I'm just so
glad you let me intrude on
Nicky Gumbel: you.
Oh, no, Steve, it's
great to have you here.
Steve Gladen: Love it.
Well, you know, Nikki, uh, they're
gonna get to hear a lot about who
you are, but I'd love to start out.
Um, you're married to Pippa.
Yeah.
Tell me how long you've been married.
Nicky Gumbel: Kids, grandkids,
or, we have been married 37 years.
Two days ago we celebrated our,
our 37th wedding anniversary.
Wow.
We, um, have three children and we
have just had our third grandchild.
He's called Brave.
Steve Gladen: I love, um, the heritage
of what you've brought to this
area, and as people, as we start to
unpack who you are, the thing I love
about you is the humbleness, the
dedication that you have to God's word.
And we're gonna close our time out
by the, the yearly Reading Bible plan
that you have, uh, through you version.
But first off, lemme know you.
First off, you're the pioneer of Alpha
and these stats are just staggering.
Uh, 24 million people have done alpha
in 169 countries and 112 languages.
Now, I know Alpha, you really know Alpha,
but for our people who may not know
what it is, can you just kind of give
us a, a broad macro view of Alpha and
Nicky Gumbel: what it's targeted?
The, the way the Alpha evening works
is people come for food beginning.
Okay.
So food is very key.
It's like that's where friendships happen.
Food is right in the half of the
New Testament eating together.
Yep.
People have a lot of fun.
They laugh together, they make friends
barriers come down during that time
and then they, we hear a talk and
the talk is about what it starts off.
Is there more life than this?
Okay.
Second talk is about Jesus, then about
the cross faith, the Bible prayer.
And there we present what we believe.
Right.
So the talk on who is Jesus mm-hmm.
The life, death, and the evidence
of the resurrection of Jesus.
Yep.
But then when we go into the discussion
group, we don't preach twice.
So, ah, okay.
So the, the, the small group host and
the helpers, they're not going to preach
or argue, they're just gonna listen.
So the way it works is that the, the host
will ask questions, what do you think?
So what do you think about Jesus?
What do you feel about Jesus?
Uh, and then, uh, if the
person says, well, I don't
believe he was the son of God.
Yeah, I think he was a
great religious teacher.
They're not gonna say, how do you,
how do you, how can you say that?
There's so much evidence they're gonna
say, well, that's really interesting.
Tell me why you think that.
What do other people in the group think?
And it's not that the, the discussion
group does not revolve around the leader.
So it's not the leader asking all the
questions, making all the comments.
So
Steve Gladen: that's gotta lower
the fear factor of the people
you're recruiting to lead these
Nicky Gumbel: groups.
Yeah.
It's hosting a group.
You don't need to know anything.
In fact, the more you know, the
more of a disadvantage it is.
'cause the more you know, the
more tempted you are to say it.
Oh, it's true.
The less you know, the more
you are gonna be listening to
what other people have to say.
But the key thing is that it's the
guest talking to the other guests.
We demonstrated actually
with a, with a ball game.
So we put people in a SM and,
and we do this to the, at the
right, the start of the course.
We say, this is how now small group works.
Okay.
And I stand in the middle with a
ball and I say, this is a discussion.
And I throw it to one of the guests
and the guest throws it back to me.
I throw it back and forth.
I say, that's not how a small group works.
It's not a conversation between one
person and everybody else listening.
That'd be really boring.
Gotcha.
Then I say, nor is it like this?
And I throw it to one and then I
throw it to another, throw it to
another, and they throw every time
they're throwing it back to me.
Right?
And I said, it's not like that.
It's not like I'm controlling
it, asking the questions, making
a comment after every point.
This is how an alpha small group works.
Wow.
So I throw the ball to a guest
and then I get the guests to
throw it amongst themselves.
Wow.
And I said, that is how the
alpha small group works.
That's what's amazing.
Now, sometimes it takes two or
three weeks to establish that,
because to begin with, particularly
say if I'm, if I'm in the group.
Yep.
And I've just given the talk.
Then they always ask me all the questions.
Yeah.
And I, I have to explain to 'em,
look, this is the way it works.
And, but very quickly they
get it, even if it's me.
But with the other small group
leaders, it's easier 'cause they
haven't given the talk so they
just throw it amongst themselves.
Mm-hmm.
They discuss amongst themselves and
it is amazing how begin with, they
think it's, this is really frustrating.
I'm not gonna answer my questions.
But by the end of the course,
it's amazing how the answers have
emerged through this discussion.
Mm-hmm.
Between people who are not in the church.
Wow.
Between, and it's this extraordinary
dynamic that they are exploring
Steve Gladen: together.
Now there's a couple things
that you just mentioned.
I just wanna try and pull this out.
So you, you alluded to, so do
you, do you lead one of the alpha
Nicky Gumbel: small groups?
I'm always in a small group.
I don't lead it.
I'm a helper.
That's,
Steve Gladen: that's true.
I just, I violated the
principle right away.
Nicky Gumbel: So, so we have the
hosts and helpers and um, uh,
Peppa and I are always now help.
We used to lead groups.
Yeah.
But now we are helpers in groups.
Now the helpers don't say anything.
So literally we sit for 10 weeks and
we say nothing in the small group.
Of course the helpers chat
to the guests during supper.
Sure, you bet.
Yeah.
One-to-one.
But you're modeling it.
But we're modeling listening.
Just outta curiosity.
Steve Gladen: Do you know how many
times you've been doing that or,
Nicky Gumbel: uh, well, I think
this is the 74th small group in
a row that we would've been in.
The one that starts next Wednesday.
That's amazing.
Um, but I did a few before that as well.
I've probably done about 80 small groups.
Um, but I mean, it
Steve Gladen: shows your heart.
It shows your heart not
only to intellectually.
Put it out there, but to model to
the people and of all people, uh, you
Nicky Gumbel: know, we just love it.
I, mm-hmm.
I, look, it's the highlight of my week
now, sitting in the small group listening.
It's so fascinating.
And the average age is 27 of the
people who come on our course.
There are people outside the church from
across London, all sorts of people from
different backgrounds, different beliefs.
And you sit there listening to
these people discussing the most
important questions in life.
I love that.
And forgiveness, um, what life
is about, how you find happiness.
All these kind of discussions that go on.
And it is ing needs,
they're all felt needs.
Absolutely fascinating.
Now, the
Steve Gladen: numbers of
alpha are, are staggering.
I mean, did you ever imagine when you
started this it would be what it is?
And, and why do, why do you
think it's taken off so much?
I mean, 169 countries.
I mean, there's only 197, so you
know, you're lagging on about 30.
Nicky Gumbel: So I, I imagine it's
probably in every country in the world.
Now, I, I, I, I say that because, uh,
I was in India two or three years ago,
and I, I met someone, someone came up
to me actually in India and said, uh,
they recognized me from the videos and
they said, they said they'd done Alpha.
So I said, where did you do Alpha?
They said, the Pharaoh Islands.
So I said, uh, I didn't even know
where the Pharaoh Islands were.
So, so, oh, new do I, so I, uh,
they, and they explained that
they're attached to Denmark.
So I said, well, what language
did you do the course in?
And they said, we did it in Pharaoh.
Wow.
So I said, are there other churches in
the Pharaoh Islands that are doing Alpha?
He said, yeah, all the churches
in the Pharaoh Islands do Alpha.
So when I got back to London, I, I asked
our, our guys, do we have any record of
Alpha running in the Pharaoh Islands?
They said, we've got no record at all.
And that the beauty of the gospel.
So they, they hadn't got
permission to translate into
ese, but that's how it works.
Just don't tell the publishers.
So, so, uh, so that, that, I imagine
it's now in every country in the world.
So, uh, yeah.
It's, it is extraordinary how
it's spread virally because it's
people telling their friends.
Um, and that's how, that's how
it, it works because there is this
spiritual hunger in people's hearts.
Mm-hmm.
Every human being, whether they're
a Christian or not, has this
ache, this, this hunger for God.
God has put eternity into the
hearts of human beings, and so
people are searching for something.
What happens when we die?
Is this life all there is, is there
more to life than all the stuff I do?
Yeah.
Every human being has those questions.
Now, the difficulty is
where do you discuss them?
Yeah.
Because those questions, it's difficult.
To at a football match
or it says your mate.
Yeah.
Well, what do you think
the meaning of life is?
Right?
You can't do that or go down
the pub or whatever it is.
You can't, you can't.
It's a very difficult conversation to
have, but people want to discuss it.
If you can provide the right environment,
I think that's so critical where it's
relaxed, non pressurized, non preachy.
Uh, you're not judged for what
you, what you think or what you
believe or what you've done.
Then people will come and they'll,
they'll talk and they, and once
they've experienced it, they'll
tell their friends about it.
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
You brought up a great, great point
that people are gonna discuss these
questions, whether we facilitate
it or they facilitate it, and why
not put it in an environment where
it's, it's held in the church and it,
and it's, and it's brought through.
So I applaud that.
Now, just let me just
backtrack a little bit more.
Uh, a lot of people may not know
that you grew up in an atheist.
Can you just kind of talk to me, I know
that's got a probably a long story to
it, but kinda gimme the shorter version.
But, you know, talk to me about how you
went from atheist to being a follower
Nicky Gumbel: of Christ.
My father was Jewish Uhhuh.
He was a secular Jew.
He was his family.
Many of his family had
died in the Holocaust.
Oh wow.
And he came over here, um,
and he was, um, an agnostic.
Mm-hmm.
My mother was, um, a non-church
going, um, some nominal Anglican.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so I had no kind of
church going, um, background.
Um, and when I was a teenager,
um, I sort of established my own
position, which was I was an atheist.
I just came to conclusion
that there could not be a God.
There was no God.
I wrote about it and I became quite
antagonistic towards Christians and I used
to argue 'cause when I was at Cambridge
University, um, and um, there were quite
a lot of people who there were sort
of, You know, out to get the new Yeah.
The new students.
And, um, I was very vociferous in my, uh,
attacks on them and my defensive atheism.
And what happened was, my closest friend,
we had rooms right next to each other.
I've known him, uh, since I was 12.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, I had told him to stay
well away from all these Christians
because they were dangerous people.
Uh, but, uh, he kept it quiet.
And he told me, he and his girlfriend
now, his wife Nick and s Lee, they
are now, uh, came back and told me
they, they've become Christians.
Wow.
And I was devastated because
they were such lovely people
and I thought, you know what?
They got corrupted.
They got, they've, so, but I started
that night, I started investigating and
the only thing I was gonna investigate
religion and philosophy, but the
only thing I had was a New Testament.
And I started reading it.
Well, I had an old bible basically that
I'd had for, for re lessons at school.
Yeah.
And I started reading it that night,
and it was through reading the New
Testament that I encountered Jesus.
And that was the turning point in my life.
Well
Steve Gladen: now where does, and
okay, so add that mix into it.
And then we have, uh, you were
originally studying to be a trial lawyer
and you went into that profession.
Talk to me about, you know, when,
when did the shift to being a
pastor or a vicar, when did that
Nicky Gumbel: come to play?
All my family are lawyers.
My father was a barrister.
My mother was a barrister.
My sister's a barrister.
My son is qualified as a barrister.
My daughter's qualified as a barrister.
I practiced, uh, as a
barrister for 10 years.
So basically it's everybody
in the family are barristers.
My uncle's a barrister, both
grandfathers on both sides of barrister.
So it's kind of like, uh, I had to do it.
Yeah.
So I should say so, so, uh, and
certainly there was no prospect of me,
me, my parents approving of what I was
doing, getting, getting ordained as
a minister in the Church of England.
Yeah.
Um, but at least if I'd done law
first, that was kind of gonna,
there's less resistance there.
Would they, would I, I tried.
So, so yes.
I, I did a law.
I, I actually switched to doing law
at, at Cambridge, and then I did
a, i, I practiced as a barrister.
I did almost 10 years law altogether.
And then I, um, went to, back to, so
Oxford this time to study theology.
And I did, uh, three
years theology at Oxford.
And then I was ordained,
um, in the Church of
Steve Gladen: England.
Now, I know there's a lot of
pastors or a lot of people watching
this, that maybe in secular fields
that maybe feel the call of God.
I mean, was it nervous?
Were you scared or was it dislike?
Hey, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm
gonna make the shift,
Nicky Gumbel: or what, what was that?
There were a lot of, uh,
factors involved in it.
Obviously these things are complex,
but I, I think from the moment that
I encountered Jesus, I wanted to
communicate that to other people.
I, I'm shy, I'm introverted, I'm not,
uh, it was not an easy thing for me.
I.
But I, I felt so passionately about it.
I wanted to learn how to communicate
because I thought it was such an important
message to get out there because I, I, I
knew what I felt when I was an atheist.
Yeah.
I knew the emptiness of that life.
And I could see there were so
many other people who were,
they were lost effectively, uh,
however successful they were.
You could see that there was
something, something missing.
And it is like if you, you are in a
desert and you find water, presumably
you'd want to tell everyone about it.
Yeah.
Uh, I wanted to tell everyone about it.
So, uh, that was why straight
away I wanted to, and I didn't
know the right way to do it.
I didn't know whether the best
way was to be a lawyer Yep.
And to be involved in the church.
But as I started to think, uh, uh,
as, as partly as I read the Bible
and sort certain verses sort of
stood out to me, a sense of calling,
but also as I thought long term.
Somebody said to me,
where do you want to be?
Think 10 years ahead, if you
achieve all your, all your dreams,
is that where you want to be?
And I thought of as a lawyer 10 years,
if I'd achieved all my dreams, if I'd
been a really successful barrister.
Yeah.
If I'd been a high court judge.
Yeah.
Uh, and I thought, actually
that's not what I wanna do.
So if even if you achieve all your dreams,
you get to a place that you don't want to
get to, is there any point in doing that?
So, and then I thought about
if, if I did everything that
I really want to do mm-hmm.
In terms of communicating
about Jesus mm-hmm.
In 10 years time and what's
actually happened is way beyond
anything that I imagined.
Wow.
But I thought if I was able to, to help
a few people find Jesus, that would be,
I would feel so much more satisfied Wow.
Than being a high court judge.
So, um, that was, I, I suppose at
the end there, but at least if I, if
I go this way, Then if I do achieve
all my dreams, I will be doing
something that I really want to do.
Wow.
And that's what I, but what I'm doing now
is far more than, than I ever imagined
Steve Gladen: would be possible.
Well, obviously, you know, you're
a follower of Christ through
the journey you went through.
So many people in Alpha
have been that way.
Is, is there a place in Alpha, uh,
and I know it's, you know, part,
course, part, you know, discussion.
Is there a place when people, uh, kind
of make that encounter with Christ?
Or is this kind of all over the
Nicky Gumbel: map?
It, but it happens at different
stages for different people.
Yeah.
I think for some people, the moment
they arrive, something happens.
Mm-hmm.
It's like they, they encounter
Jesus in, in, in the community.
Yeah.
It's like just the, the people there.
For some people it's, it's
the talk who is Jesus.
Yeah.
They, they, they understand that Jesus
actually lived, died, rose again.
It's real.
Wow.
Some people, it's the cross.
They, they just under, they
understand Jesus died for them.
Them.
Mm.
Um, forgiveness is possible.
They, we, we always have this
little book called Why Jesus.
And there's a prayer in the
back of that, that they can
pray and people take it away.
And sometimes people pray
it after who is Jesus?
Sometimes people pray after,
uh, why did Jesus die sometimes?
How can I have faith that we
explain to people how you can
invite Jesus, that picture Yeah.
Of Jesus standing at the door
of your life and knocking.
Mm-hmm.
Wanting to come in.
And we give people an
opportunity to invite him in.
And sometimes that's the moment, the
most common moment is the weekend.
We have a weekend on the
person work of the Holy Spirit.
Okay.
And we give people an opportunity
to be filled with the Holy Spirit.
One of the features of Alpha, which
I would not have put in there if I'd
been writing an evangelistic course.
Yeah.
It's a whole weekend on the Holy Spirit
because it was a course for people
already Christians that was in there.
Uh, and I would've, I would never have
put that into an evangelistic course.
It wasn't in the sort of
traditional evangelistic course.
Yeah, you, you're right.
Um, Uh, but then what we found was
that was the moment that the main,
when we read the questionnaires, what
was the moment that it's the weekend
and it's the, it is the Holy Spirit.
And actually, when you read
the New Testament, of course,
that's what it's all about.
Yeah.
It's, it's only the Holy Spirit
that can enable someone to
have a relationship with God.
It brings the power of
conviction and everything.
Wow.
Everything that happens through the Holy
Spirit, it, it always starts with God.
The, the movement in the New
Testament is from God to us.
Mm-hmm.
It's the Holy Spirit where that
enables us to repent and have
faith and put our trust in him.
Wow.
And so that's the most common moment
is, is the, um, the weekend away,
the, the experience, the Holy Spirit.
And that means that not only
the people, it's not like, oh
yeah, okay, I'm a Christian now.
Yeah.
It's like, wow, this is exciting.
I experienced God.
I, I felt God's love for me.
And, and the
Steve Gladen: journey now begins.
Nicky Gumbel: Well, when you feel
God's love, then that's, The totally
different things, not just you
say, oh yeah, I'm intellectually
convinced Jesus died and rose again.
Um, yeah, I can tick the box.
I'm a Christian.
It's like I feel God's love for me and
this is a life changing experience.
And then even after the weekend,
people, one guy, it was the
talk, how can I resist evil?
He came up to me, the guy, very good
friend of mine now, but he was a
very, again, an argumentative lawyer.
And his wife had become a
Christian 10 years before.
And, uh, he was just not interested.
But his two daughters wrote to him and
they said, and they were only, uh, I, I
guess they were in their, uh, maybe not
even teenagers, and they wrote and they
said, dad, we really want you to do alpha.
Oh my God.
So he came on, he came on the course
only because of his, of his daughters
and well, and his wife, although
she hadn't said anything to him.
Right.
Uh, she just lived it out for 10 years.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and he was not interested.
Came up to the course the weekend.
But the talk, how can I resist evil?
He came up to me afterwards
and he said, I'm a lawyer.
In my work, I have seen so much evil.
I've always believed in
the power of evil power.
Isn't that fascinating?
Yeah.
Now, tonight, I realize
the logic struck me.
If there's a power of evil, maybe there's
also a power of good and I love it.
He came to faith that night.
Then people, somehow on the
church, the talk on the church,
the last talk, they go, wow.
Community.
That's what I, now I understand
what church is, is community.
And they've experienced it.
So all the way through the course
they're experiencing church.
They don't realize it.
They're sitting in a small group.
But what is a small group?
Some microcosm of the church.
Steve Gladen: Well, let me,
let me piggyback on that.
So what role do small
groups play in Alpha?
Because you, you're ending on community,
it seems like it's a big piece.
Nicky Gumbel: It's at, at the,
the small group is much the most
important part of the evening.
So the meal's important, the talk's
important, coffee's important.
But the most important
thing is the small group.
Yeah.
And that's what keeps people coming.
What happens is they, they form
friendships in the small group.
Yeah.
If the small group's working, not working,
well, they probably won't come back.
But what happens is they,
they, they may disagree with
everything that's being said.
They may not like the talks.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, but they like people, they like Fred,
uh, they like, they like, they like Anna.
And, uh, they get on well with them.
Wow.
And they both disagree with the talks.
So they, they, they think, oh, I want
to come back and see Fred and see Anna.
Steve Gladen: So has a small group
always been an integral part of the
Nicky Gumbel: alpha course?
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's the absolute key to the whole,
the whole course is a small group.
Wow.
Um, and they make friends with
the people in the small group.
They're on this journey of faith together.
So Anna becomes, you know,
takes a step of faith.
Yep.
And they say, Hey, last week
you were arguing the other way.
And they're like, what?
What's happened to you?
Wow.
And that's why they help each
other because it's what's
happened to Anna that helps me.
The, uh, the guest, I go.
Hey, last week Hannah was
saying she didn't believe, yeah,
hey, what's happened to you?
Well, this is what happened to me.
Or somebody says, well, you know,
I've started reading the Bible.
Mm.
This is another thing that happens.
People say, well, I think I want
to look at the original source, so
I'm gonna start reading the Bible.
What a novel concept.
And they start reading.
They start, I, I think of
one guy called Malcolm.
He was so aggressive.
He was a, he an actor, actually.
He was an actor's agent.
He had been an actor, then
became an agent, Uhhuh.
And he said he had had, he told us
afterwards, he had an address book
of all the, um, the most evil people
in London who were his friends.
And, and he lived a very wild life.
But on the first he said, oh, you
know, always when, when, when, if
you're on a play, you read the script.
He said, so I'm gonna
start reading the Bible.
So he started reading Matthew's Gospel
and every week he'd come back and
say, I'm halfway through Matthew.
I'm really enjoying it.
I, I'm, I, I'm reading Luke.
I don't like Luke.
You say he's come, but every
time it was so interesting.
Um, you know, and I'm, I'm in John's
gospel, and then of course he, he came to
Faith, but, um, it, it, this is, but the
people in the group were all watching,
oh, what's Mark gonna say next week?
Yeah.
You know, how's he getting
on with reading the Bible?
And then when he, of course,
when he became a Christian,
they're like, oh my goodness.
Mm.
And they're, it is really interesting.
People say, I, I haven't seen
God, but Jesus says the wind, the,
the Holy Spirit's like the wind.
Mm-hmm.
You can't actually see the wind, but
you can see the impact of the wind.
Yeah.
So they say, well, I, I can't see God.
And you say, well, actually you've been
watching the Holy Spirit changing Malcolm.
Yeah.
So you have seen God, you haven't
seen, you, you've seen the impact Yeah.
Of the Holy Spirit.
Wow.
You can't see the Holy Spirit.
But you can see the change in Malcolm.
That's like the, where
the wind blows the leaves.
You can, the wind is real.
You, oh, I can't see the wind.
The wind doesn't exist.
Yeah.
Oh yeah, yeah.
But you can feel it.
Yeah.
And you can see the wind, the leaves.
Wow.
You can see Malcolm changing.
Yeah.
And they go, wow.
Maybe there is a God.
Maybe the Holy Spirit is real.
Steve Gladen: Well, Nikki, let me
shift gears a little bit on you.
The, a lot of the people that are
watching are involved in small
groups leading it, or they're
the point people in small groups.
Tell us, you know, about small
groups and H T B and how maybe
alpha feeds into your small groups.
Well,
Nicky Gumbel: the small group, the end,
the last night, we say to them, there,
there are four questions last night.
First of all, how'd you get on the course?
Yeah.
People go around the small group and
they give their, effectively, they
give their testimony and sometimes
it's the first time that they've
ever said what's happened to them.
And that's often the moment the
penny drops for them because you
know, it's when you confess with
your lips that something happens.
Yep.
So we do that.
Second thing we say is,
what would you like to do?
Now?
The answer is always the same.
The answer is we don't mind
what we do now as long as we
stay together as a small group.
Oh, wow.
So sometimes people come back and
help on the next course, but very
often that's small group will go on
to be a small group in the church.
Mm-hmm.
Maybe they'll link up with, because
the numbers will get down because the
leaders and helpers probably won't go on.
Maybe one of the leaders will help
us, will go on with that small group.
Yep.
But quite a lot of the leaders
and helpers Will, will, will
be involved in the next course.
So, um, I, I think you
met my friend Steve.
Yes.
Uh, who, who helped in the last course.
Yeah.
Uh, that he was, well he led the
group and that we were helping.
Yep.
So he has taken that small group on.
Yeah.
Uh, and linked up with other people and
he'll be looking after that small group.
Wow.
So that's how these, these, um,
so very often that, well maybe two
small groups were combined from
a new small group in the church.
Mm-hmm.
And it, it morphs a bit because
what happens is to begin with,
they just wanna be with that group.
They're the only Christians they know.
Mm-hmm.
And they want to, and maybe
they're not even Christians yet
at the end of the course do, but
they still to meet with them.
Yep.
And they still wanna keep on meeting
together, but then maybe they'll
link up with a slightly bigger group.
Some of our connect groups are a bit
bigger Uhhuh and they'll meet a whole
lot of other people in the church.
Yep.
And then maybe they'll say, well
actually you guys live a lot nearer
to me than, and geography becomes
more important further down the track.
Yeah.
And so you live, well maybe
I'll start meeting with you
'cause they've made new friends.
Yeah.
But to begin with, they just want
to stay meeting with the people.
Mm-hmm.
They know from Alpha.
Steve Gladen: The thing I love about,
um, what Rick does on for me at
Saddleback and what I see you doing at
H T B over the years, what, what have
you seen to be the importance of the
small group ministry in the church?
Nicky Gumbel: The small groups
are absolutely essential.
To church.
People need community.
We are created for community.
Mm-hmm.
We're created for a relationship with God.
Yep.
But we're also created for a relationship
with one another in the church.
And you, you can't, to be a Christian
is to be a member of the church.
Mm-hmm.
It's, we, we we're called into a
community and we need one another.
You can't be a Christian on a, on your,
someone said you can't marry on your own.
You can't be a Christian on your own.
It's, it's, uh, you need other people.
Now, the way that need is
met is different mm-hmm.
For different people.
But we all need community.
And it's not enough to come walk
into church on Sunday, sit in a
chair, and then walk out again.
Mm-hmm.
That's not church.
Church is about people.
The church is the people of God.
Mm-hmm.
It's the family of God.
It's, Jesus said, I've
called you my friends.
Mm.
The most important professor David
Ford, is an expert on John's gospel.
So the most important word
verse in John's gospel Yeah.
Is where Jesus says,
I've called you friends.
Yeah.
That's what it's all, it's friendship with
Jesus and friendship with one another.
And we need our friends.
And this generation, bear in
mind, average age people come on.
Alpha is 27.
That's probably the vast
majority of people in our church
are aged between 18 and 35.
Mm-hmm.
It's called the friends generation and
they, they recognize they need friends.
Now there's a difference between
Facebook friends and real friends.
Yeah.
Um, and what they need is real friends.
They need community.
And often the things that people are
doing, drugs, sexual promiscuity.
Yeah.
What they're really looking for
is deep lasting relationships.
And where you find that is in.
Church.
Now, how you do that size
of the small group, uh, that
varies from church to church.
Yeah.
But everybody needs community.
They need, and so we have connect
groups, we have, um, so we have Alpha
and then you join a Connect group.
Connect groups vary in size.
Typically younger people
want larger groups.
Yeah.
Because if you are, if you're young and
new to faith and single, you don't wanna
be in a group of just very few people.
Yeah.
You want a bigger group.
Yep.
And so a lot of them are in,
in slightly bigger groups.
Um, if you are older,
you've been a Christian A.
Long time, and you're married, uh,
you've got children running around.
Yeah.
You, you're not so keen on
meeting loads of new people.
Uh, you've heard all the talks on
John's gospel and what you really
want is a quite small group Yeah.
Where you can really talk, get
close to each other, um, talk about
all the things that are going on.
You don't want constantly new people.
Mm-hmm.
Joining it.
So the, the, probably
the needs are different.
As you get older, as you've been
a Christian longer, of course
there are dangers in that.
But nevertheless, we find that, that
people at that age tend to want to the
smaller groups where they, where they
can really talk, un burn themselves,
get received prayer and so on.
Yeah.
Younger people want the bigger
group, they can, um, learn stuff,
meet new people, and then maybe
also have small, smaller groups.
Yeah.
Maybe two or three people they meet with.
They can pray together.
But variety, I think is, is
key for the different needs,
different ages, different stages.
Mm-hmm.
But what is key, what we say to
everybody is you need some kind
of small group in your life.
You need some kind of
friendship around you.
Yeah.
Now, Nikki, I'm gonna
Steve Gladen: try and frame this
question as best as possible,
as honoring as it possible.
Uh, at least in America, they
say most, uh, senior pastors.
Or people leading their
congregation attract usually 10
years younger, 10 years older.
And, and not that you don't fit that
demographic, um, but h t b Holy Trinity
in Brompton, you, you see, you alluded to
it before, but I just wanna bring it out.
The average age.
You, you have over 5,000 attending
on the weekend, and the average
age is between 18 and 35.
Now, I'm just guessing you're,
you're maybe a little bit out of
Nicky Gumbel: that demographic.
I'm just, I'm 59 and a half.
I'm not quite 60.
Um, but, uh, but
Steve Gladen: what is
making it so relevant?
I mean, and in London, I mean, people have
a stereotype that, uh, Europe is dead.
Uh, you can't reach
the younger generation.
You're, you're 59 and a
half and, and you are.
What's made it so relevant?
Well,
Nicky Gumbel: I don't think I
am, but I think the church, our
churches, uh, I think it, I think
alpha, uh, is the reason that it's
kept our church very young because.
Um, because the average
agent on Alpha is 27.
So we've got this stream of young people
constantly joining the church and that's
the age group that are really uh, such,
actually interestingly, if you look at
most churches, I dunno how it is in the
US mm-hmm But most churches in the uk, the
demographic that's missing is 18 to 35.
Yeah.
And if you look at the demographic
on our course, it peaks at
27 and it tails off at 35.
It's that whole demographic
that alpha hits.
And so that's the group
that's coming into the church.
We've got slightly older,
'cause we've been running Alpha
for so many years now Right.
That some of those people, a lot
of them have gone off to plant
churches 'cause that's what we do.
Yep.
Plant churches and we send people off.
But, but some of them are still there.
So we have got a little bit older
as a church, but still the vast
majority of the ones, the new ones
coming in who are at the younger end.
So, But it's certainly not me.
I mean, I, I play very little
role in the other people preach,
other people leave, so it's, it's,
it's run by much younger people.
And the talks on Alpha are given by my,
I used to do all the talks on Alpha.
Yeah.
But as you say, you can perhaps
reach people 10 years older.
10 years younger.
So when I was 39 Yeah.
I was doing all the talks on Alpha.
Yeah.
And that was okay.
But as I have got older, I've had
to do less and less of the talks.
Mm-hmm.
And there'll come a time not far ahead
where I won't be doing any of the talks.
Steve Gladen: Now, do you think
that age group, uh, are finding the
small group component attractive?
Is that's, is that what
is being appealing to 'em?
Yeah,
Nicky Gumbel: it's, it definitely is.
It's interesting, our, our younger
groups on our phone always rant and we
try and have 12 people in the group.
Yeah.
Two leaders, two, well,
two hosts as we call 'em.
Two helpers, eight to 10, 12 guests.
But the younger groups
likely got 20 in the group.
Older groups, we can't fill it,
find it much harder to fill.
Um, but the, but the,
the young people mm-hmm.
Are they love this is, this is
what they love and this is what
makes, attracts them to the course.
Um, and this is what holds 'em in their
faith, is the friends that they make.
Steve Gladen: Yeah.
Nikki, let me, as we're winding this
down, what, what's that important
life lesson that, that you've learned
that you'd wanna share to the folks?
Nicky Gumbel: I, I guess the
more I go on in life, the more I
realize that it, the simplicity.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, the simplicity of our
faith is, it's all about Jesus.
Mm-hmm.
Simplicity about life is it's all, it's
all, it's all about, it's all about love.
Yeah.
Um, and that is what love is the
most important thing in the world.
Mm-hmm.
Jesus is most important
relationship with God, but, but
love is, is, it's a love relation.
It's God's love for us.
That's what the Holy Spirit.
That's why the weekend is so important.
Yeah.
Because we experience God's love.
That's why the talk on Jesus
and the cross is so important.
Yeah.
'cause that's how we know God loves us.
Uh, then our relationship of love
to God is, is why we worship,
why we do all the things that
we do and love for one another.
That's what brings unity in the church
across all the different churches.
That's what holds a local church together.
That's what holds a marriage together.
Yeah.
That's what holds a family together.
It's all about love.
And I think that's one of the reasons
young people come because they find love.
Wow.
They're looking for love in the
wrong places, but when they come and
they find Jesus and they find his
community and his friends mm-hmm.
They really find love.
Steve Gladen: Now, and lemme take
the question one more step further.
What would you say to all
the small group point people?
There are a lot of people
that are watching this.
They're, they're overseeing
all the small groups.
What, what would you say to them?
What's, what's that life
lesson you've learned for them?
I think, I think
Nicky Gumbel: again, it, it, it's.
The, the secret of the
small groups is love.
Yeah.
It's loving the people and
that means you can be yourself,
because it's not about technique.
It's not about how clever you are,
it's not about how much you know.
Mm-hmm.
It's about love and that's authenticity.
It's just be yourself.
Yeah.
That's the key thing in life.
And then, uh, love means listening.
If you love people, you'll listen to them.
Mm-hmm.
You'll be genuinely interested in them.
People can tell very quickly whether
your questions are just sort of pat
questions or whether you are genuinely
interested in what they have to say.
Mm-hmm.
And, and if you're genuinely
interested in them and you love
them, then you'll listen to them.
Yeah.
And you'll encourage them.
And encouragement is why people come back.
I've noticed this over and over again.
People come on Alpha and
they're in a tough job.
They, they're criticized a lot.
It's very negative environment.
Sometimes they're working in
and they come on alpha and
they think, wow, that was nice.
Everyone was, everyone was nice to me.
Everyone was encouraging.
Mm-hmm.
And they may not agree with
me, but they welcome me.
They love me regardless of my lifestyle,
regardless of what I've done in my life.
They're not judging me.
They're welcoming me, they're loving me.
And they think, I wanna go back to that.
'cause that was really nice.
That was really good.
And then they, they realize
this is what church is.
Church is a place where people
are welcomed and loved and not
judged and experience God's love.
And, uh, that is so attractive.
Wow.
Steve Gladen: For those of you that are,
that are watching this, also, I wanna
encourage you that, uh, Nikki and his
wife Pippa, have done a commentary to
a a year round Bible reading program.
And on, uh, YouVersion, you can,
uh, download that and you can be a
part of it over, uh, 600,000 people.
And it sounds crazy.
Over 600,000 people are doing
this yearly Bible reading plan to
go through the Bible in a year.
And you wanna transform your life and
the lives of the people in your group.
That's something that they can do.
Just download the app and you'll see
the Bible Reading plan there, and I
just encourage you to jump into that.
Don't forget to subscribe
wherever you listen to podcasts.
And to dive in deeper get more resources
or join the small group network just
head over to small group network.com.